Is Jesus God?

[tuppence]

I don't know where your addition of Catholicism came in. Every Christian church we have spoken at, every church I have ever gone to of any denomination or non-denomination knows and teaches our eternal life with our Lord. Please note that in the quote from John 14 He said He could come and TAKE US to be with Him, not that He would stay with us here in this doomed creation.

I have made it a point today to read a number of your posts and realize you also deny the divinity of Christ. So we are on very different sides, my friend. Biblically, you have called Christ Jesus a liar, for He claimed to be the I AM several times. The Jews understood that and that is why they tried to stone Him.

Like Thomas, I call Him my Lord and my God as well as my Redeemer and Savior. I know I will be in heaven with Him and I know that the soul and spirit of man are eternal, regardless of the destination.

This is my faith, based on the knowledge that the Bible is true.

[Aineo]

I also know the Bible is true, which means when God said:

Deuteronomy 6:4
4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
NAS

He did not mean 3 in 1. And when Jesus said:

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.
NAS

He did not mean as compared to pagan gods.

I also believe Peter over the church councils that denied the inerrancy of the Bible and ignored Peter's sermon in Acts 2:

Acts 2:22-24

22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
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I also agree with Paul who made a point of writing:

1 st Corinthians 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
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I also believe Jesus will reign on earth for 1000 years before the 2nd Resurrection in this doomed creation because God made covenants with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as well as with David that have yet to be fulfilled and God keeps His promises.

In John 14 Jesus said: "I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am". When he returns Jesus will return to where he left.

Acts 1:11
"Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
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Zechariah prophesied:

Zechariah 14:1-5
14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished, and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 And you will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
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One of the Messiahs titles is "Holy One".

Psalms 16:10
10 For Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol;
Neither wilt Thou allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
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In Acts 5 Peter said:

Acts 5:28-32
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
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Yes, I have rejected the traditions developed by the Catholic/Orthodox church councils because like Peter I feel I must obey God not men.

As to Thomas' statement, in the Hebrew mind and culture any agent of Yehovah can be addressed as "god". Jesus pointed this out to the Pharisees:

John 10:34-39
34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world,' You are blaspheming,' because I said,' I am the Son of God'? 37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father. "
NAS

Jesus is the unique Son of God, however Jesus was born a man, died as man, was resurrected a man, and is the only man sitting at the right hand of the Father as our High Priest, intercessor, mediator, and God's Anointed One (Messiah). And we do have eternal life with the Lord and will rule with the Lord on earth - not in heaven. Jesus promised the Apostles they would sit on 12 thrones and govern the sons of Israel. Have you studied Ezekiel 40-48?

[Aineo]

Just out of curiosity tuppence, did you know that Isaac Newton rejected the Trinity?

Keynes believed that Newton’s writings showed him to be rather eccentric in his Christian theology. For example, at a time when the trinity was more or less accepted as fact in theological circles, Newton wrote voluminously to support his belief that the theory was fraudulent. He based his theories completely on his study of the ancient texts (he was fluent in Hebrew, Greek and Latin) and was persuaded that they gave no support to trinitarian doctrines. But he never published these works or announced them publicly, perhaps recalling the fate of Galileo, who stuck to his guns supporting the theory that the solar system revolved around the sun and was hounded by the Vatican for his views until the day he died.
http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php/74

Newton was a Unitarian, not to be confused with Unitarian Universalists although they claim him as one of their own, the same is also true of John Adams and John Quincy Adams and other famous Americans and Europeans. A Spanish Unitarian by the name of Michael Servetus was burned at the stake by the order of John Calvin only because he rejected infant baptism and the Trinity as unscirptural.

Am I labeling Jesus a liar? No, since other than John 17:3 Jesus told Mary:

John 20:16-18
16 Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, "Rabboni!" (which means, Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" 18 Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord," and that He had said these things to her.
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How can God have a God? The usual response is that Jesus was speaking in his humanity since according to the 1st Council of Nicaea Jesus has two natures explained with the hypostatic union. However, when you study this council you will discover that the attending bishops were primarily Arian in their theology. You will also learn that the attending bishops could not find Biblical language to support Jesus' two natures so they coined the phrase "hypotatic union". The theological battle between Trinitarians and Arians lasted until the 8th century.

Now, why did I bring Catholicism into this discussion? Because the Catholic/Orthodox church councils are the genesis for many traditions that are not based in Scripture, they are based in traditions and/or Greek philosophy. The foundation of Christ Church is the apostles and the prophets (Ephesians 2:20), not Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Origen of Alexandria, and the other Greeks who used Neoplatonism and Aristotelean philosophical tenets to interpret the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the New Testament. Some scholars also list Philo of Alexandria (a 1st century Hellenistic Jew) as one who influenced early Greek Christians. One fascinating fact I uncovered during my research is that Philo was the first Jew to assign Genesis 19:5 as the reason for Sodom's destruction, which disagrees with the Talmud where Ezekiel 16:49-50 is God's own explanation.

Now, I do not expect you to change your theology based on my research. However, you might be shocked at how much Christian dogma is in reality Greek philosophy imported into Christianity by the Ecumenical and General Church Councils and simply adopted by the Reformation.

[tuppence]

You brought up Deut. 6:4. It is actually a rather precise statement of three persons in the one God.

Here is something I wrote some time ago which Lambert Dolphin has up on his webpage:

**************

The concept of the Trinity is present from the opening verse of the Bible, actually. The word "God" in Genesis 1:1 is "elohim." This is not a simple plural of the word 'god.' The plural of that word, which means 'two,' is "eloh." "Elohim" means "three or more."

In Deuteronomy 6:4, we have the resounding,

"Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one!"

"God" is, there again, "Elohim." What is also interesting is that the last word of that, the word "one" is the word "echad." "Echad" means unity in plurality. It is the same word used regarding marriage in Genesis. 2:24, when a man is to leave his mother and father and become one with his wife. The word which is NOT used there to mean "one" is "yachid." "Yachid" means a unique singularity.

Now go to Isaiah 9 -- the famous Christmas verse:

"For unto us a child is born
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace."

Now go to Isaiah 44:6 --

"This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
Apart from me there is no God."

Please cross reference this with Jesus' words to John in Revelation 1:17-18 --

"Do not be afraid.
I am the First and the Last.
I am the Living One.
I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever."

Check the Gospel of John, opening sentences, opening chapter:

"In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [Remember Genesis 1:1 -- "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.:] .... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Please note also that the absolutely correct translation of the Greek is "...and God was the Word," - I urge you to look it up.

And remember Jesus words' at the end of Matthew: "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit...." and, again, Jesus' words defining eternal life in John 17:3 clearly equate Him with the Father.

And so, although we may not understand the Trinity with our human minds very well, the doctrine of the Trinity is present in the Bible from the first. Jesus is God Himself in the flesh, and it was because this was His very claim that the Pharisees were so outraged and attempted several times to stone Him.

from http://www.ldolphin.org/Names.html -- which has a great deal of additional information proving the Bible is very clear about the Trinity.

**************

Yes, I know that Newton rejected the Trinity, but that has nothing to do with the truth of the Trinity.

Jesus claimed to be I AM several times. He was either telling the truth, lying, or mad as the March Hare.

It has nothing to do with Greek philosophy or anything else. It is pure Bible that the Trinity is real. If you really are concerned with research, please look at the webpage I linked above which I contributed to (by the way, Lambert has a wrong email address for me there. I can be reached at Helen@setterfield.org)

[Aineo]

Okay, elohiym is an irregular Hebrew noun that is translated both singular and plural depending on the context. Elohiym is translated as God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2, angels 1, exceeding 1, God-ward + (04136) 1, godly 1 (elohiym)

What is interesting about Isaiah 9:6 is that is the best OT Scripture to support the oneness cult, which teaches God's real name is Jesus. United Pentecostal Churches rely heavily on this Scripture as well as John's prologue. And I have studied and researched John's "logos". In the first century the primary Greek and Hebrew understanding of "logos" was to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. Peter said in Acts 2:

Acts 2:22-23
23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
NAS

Now back to Isaiah 9:6, "his will be called" does not mean "he is". The Hebrew Bible translates this verse as:
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo'etz El Gibbor Avi-'Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace].

Jesus is a Wonder of a Counselor, Father of Eternity since he is the first born of the dead, is titled the Prince of Peace, and as God's mighty agent can be termed a Mighty God. In Hebrew culture the eldest son was due all the respect, titles, honors, and etc. due his father. Therefore, since Jesus is God's only and unique Son and the only mediator between God and man he is due all the titles given the Father.

In Isaiah 7:4 we are told:
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
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However, Jesus Hebrew/Aramaic name is Yehoshua. However, Jesus is Immanuel since he is the exact representation of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3).

[tuppence]

Please read John 8:23-24, and check the Greek (which I put in parentheses)

But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am (ego eimi: I am I am) [the one I claim to be] you will indeed die in your sins."

Jesus used the I AM of God several times in identifying Himself. This infuriated the Jews, who tried to stone him. In John 10:31-33 we read the following:

Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

They understood Jesus' claim. And, if Jesus were not God, it was indeed blasphemy.

In Revelation 13:8 we read that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This is simply a man?

In Colossians 1:15 + He is identified as the Creator. The Creator is identifed as God and God alone in Isaiah.

In Philippians 2:6, Paul states clearly that Jesus was/is in 'very nature' God.

In order, in other words, to deny the deity of Christ, you also have to deny the truth of the Bible.

[Aineo]

John 8:23-30
23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins." 25 And so they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning? 26 "I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world." 27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 Jesus therefore said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. 29 "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him." 30 As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.
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John 10:31-39

31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world,' You are blaspheming,' because I said,' I am the Son of God'? 37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father. " 39 Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.
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Did they understand him or misunderstand him? Did Jesus sin by lying to the Pharisees? No, because Jesus did not claim to be God, he plainly states he is both the Son of Man and the Son of God. This is not a claim to deity but a claim to paternity.

Does YWHW mean I am who I am or I will be who I will be?

So God's name, at least the one given to Moses in the above Torah passage, is "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh." What does that mean? In biblical Hebrew, "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh" is a deceptively simple phrase consisting of the relative pronoun "asher" sandwiched between two instances of the first person singular imperfect of the verb hayah--to be. "Ehyeh" is most commonly translated as "I will be." Asher is a remarkable Hebrew word. Imagine, in English, a single word that can mean "that" "who" "which" or "where." So the phrase could mean:

I will be that I will be

I will be who I will be

I will be which I will be

I will be where I will be
http://www.bluethread.com/ehyeh.htm

You see tuppence I did not wake up one morning and reject the Trinity, I spent two years researching and continue to research the foundation of the Lord's Church,

[Aineo]

In Revelation 13:8 we read that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This is simply a man?

Revelation 13:8
8 And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
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In Colossians 1:15 + He is identified as the Creator. The Creator is identifed as God and God alone in Isaiah.

Put verse 15 in context:

Colossians 1:13-20
13 For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
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How can the image of the invisible God also be the creator of all things? What we have in Colossians 1 is a figure of speech known as "encircling". Jesus is preeminent over God's creation.

In Philippians 2:6, Paul states clearly that Jesus was/is in 'very nature' God.

Now you are redefining the Greek word morphee, which means:

NT:3444

morfee, morfees, hee

the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance: Philippians 2:6
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

External appearance does not have anything to do with our innate nature.

[tuppence]

All your studying aside, Aineo, if you refuse to accept Jesus for who He claimed to be, you will die in your sins, and that is a scary thought. I accepted praise from Thomas as "My Lord and my God." He did not correct Thomas. Paul tells us He was in very nature God. He commands all the angels to worship Him, and only God can be worshiped.

I know who He is. He is my Lord and my God. I pray He will open your eyes and your heart to the Reality of Him. It's there in the Bible if you want the truth.

[tuppence]

There was no edit there. HE accepted praise from Thomas as Lord and God! I was typing too fast!

[Aineo]

Men receive worship from other men. Also:

Hebrews 1:6

6 And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,

" And let all the angels of God worship Him."
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Why do angels need permission to worship God?

I have already addressed Thomas use of "my God", and according to my Bible we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by accepting the Trinity. In fact, Jesus said:

John 17:2-3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.
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Why should I label Jesus a liar by accepting what Thomas said? Have you considered that it is Trinitarians who will die in their sin because they worship a man as God? I won't go that far since I am not in a position to judge the hearts of men.

[tuppence]

Jesus claimed the name of God. The Jews understood that. I understand that. I guess you don't. You keep finding ways around the clear meaning of Scripture. That is between you and God, I guess.

Jesus said clearly that if one does not believe He is WHO HE SAID HE WAS, that person would die in their sins. He took the name of God, the I AM of the burning bush. He claimed to be the First and the Last in Revelation and in Isaiah we find the following:

This is what the Lord says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

If Jesus is the Redeemer, He is also God.

If He is neither, how could belief in Him ever save you?

[Alpha]

Notice that when Christ said the only true God that he also says and the Christ that thou hast sent, seperating himself from the only true God. Tuppence, you can't deny these things. You might accept the doctrine of the Trinity, but you are in no position to say that those who reject it are heretic or not saved.

[Alpha]

If you are saying Christ is God in the sense that he has recieved all authority from the Father, and that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord, then we agree. If you are saying Christ is equal with the Father, then that's where we are not so quick to agree.

[Aineo]

Read Acts 5:31 tuppence where Peter tells us that God exalted Jesus to His right hand as both Prince and Savior. If Jesus is God then Peter is wrong after all why does God need to exalt Himself to His own right hand? Read Hebrews where we are told the High Priest is chosen from among men, and that Jesus is our High Priest.

The Trinity causes far to many contradictions to be a valid doctrine.

[tuppence]

Kick me off the board, for I am saying exactly that, Alpha. Jesus said if we do not believe He is who He said He is, -- ego eimi -- I am I AM, then we would die in our sins.

Jesus is Creator. Only God is creator. Jesus is Redeemer. Only God is Redeemer. Jesus is in very nature God. Jesus forgave sins against God, only God can do that.

Jesus was fully man and fully God. Elohim is a plural meaning three or more, but is one in unity.

"This day I have BECOME your father...." indicates a change in relationship. Psalm 2 is clearly a Messianic Psalm and describes Jesus being the Ruler of the World. But a change in relationship means a relationship already existed.

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

That is from a man?

The human Jesus was exalted to conform with His deity. He was never less than God Himself, God With Us.

No man has seen the Father. Who was it, then, that Adam, Enoch, Abraham, and Moses SAW and talked to? another man?

No. Jesus is God Himself come to us here on earth. That is the Gospel, not that He is an exalted man. That does not fit at all. A man cannot save men. Only God can save men.

So yes, I am saying exactly what you think I am saying. If I am not welcome here, that's fine.

[Alpha]

All we are saying is Christ asked the Father to glorify him. Christ did not glorify himself, he needed another to do so.

[Alpha]

Also, I remember that when I first believed in Christ I did not know anything about the Trinity. For you to imply that me dying in the state of accepting Christ as the Son of God, and not equal with the Father -- would result in me not knowing God, is ridiculous. Paul refers to the simplicity that's in Christ ( 2 Corinthians 11:3). People do not get aquainted with the Trinity at first glance.

[Alpha]

It was not revealed to the theif on the cross that God was a triune God. Atleast that's not recorded in scripture. So, though I believe that holding the Trinity doctrine is not heretical, saying those that don't hold to the Trinity are not saved -- that's heretical!

Aineo, why don't we have the ablity to edit in this thread? I had to make 3 straight posts here.

[Aineo]

Actually tuppence the Gospel that Jesus preached was the Gospel of the Kingdom of God/Heaven.

Matthew 4:23

23 And Jesus was going about in all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.
NAS

Paul refers to it as the Gospel of God:

Romans 1:1-7
1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles, for His name's sake, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; 7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
NAS

But tell me tuppence why you have to infer Jesus is God when Paul never refers to Jesus as God; Paul always refers to Jesus as Lord?

[tuppence]

First of all, Jesus said He was God. That trumps anything else.

Secondly, Paul states in 2 Corinthians WHY Jesus was referred to as simply a man sometimes: "So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (5:16-17)

Nor does one have to believe in the Trinity or understand it to be saved, but one most certainly does have to acknowledge Jesus Christ as God and submit entirely to Him to be born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. To say that Jesus is not God is to deny the entire Bible, actually.

To say that a simple man had/has the power to forgive sins is the same nonsense we see in the Catholic church. Jesus forgave sins against God. How dare He do that unless He was God Himself in the flesh.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us...and, you will find in the Greek, not that the Word was God, but rather the reverse: God was the Word.

And unless you are accusing Paul of being polytheistic, he most certainly presented the Trinity

1. "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freesom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being translformed into his likeness with ever -increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18

2. "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you -- unless, of course, you fail the test?"
2 Corinthians 13:5

3. Please cross reference the above with Romans 8:9: "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit ofChrist, he does not belong to Christ."

4. "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakend by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering." Romans 8:3. God SENT His Son, which means that the Son was already with the Father before the Incarnation. But, Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God, the Lord is ONE.

5. "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." 2 Corinthians 13:14

6. "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, But Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20

7. Please cross reference that with the famous words Jesus spoke:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, who whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
The God who loved the world is identified as Christ by Paul in Galatians 2:20

8. "What then was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions untl the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one."
Galatians 3:19-20
Why would Paul make a point of saying God is one unless it was to eliminate confusion about the mediator being anyone else but Him?

9. "For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name." Ephesians 3:14-15 And we are CHRISTians.

10. "What does 'he ascended' mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe."
Ephesians 4:9-10

11. "You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to be like God in true righteousness and holiness."
Ephesians 4:22-24

12. Please cross reference eleven with the following:
"For those whom God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son." Romans 8:29

I could keep going through book after book. There is no doubt that Paul knew the Trinity and preached accordingly.

But again, Jesus' claim is what we must pay attention to. He claimed to be God. The Jews understood that and tried to stone Him for heresy. But either Jesus was right, a liar, or a lunatic. He was not nice man, or even simply a holy man. He did not leave us that option.

Since I am quite sure you did not read the link I posted, here is some material from it:

Revelation 1:7-8 Jesus was the Almighty.
Genesis 17:1 And the Almighty was God.

John 8:58 Jesus was the "I Am"
Exodus 3:14 and the "I Am" was God

Acts 3:14 Jesus was the "HOLY ONE"
Isaiah 43:15 and the "HOLY ONE" was God

John 8:24 Jesus is the "I Am He"
Isaiah 43:10 and the "I Am He" was God

Revelation 22:13 Jesus is the "First and the Last"
Isaiah 44:6 and the "First and the Last" was God

I Corinthians 10:4 Jesus was "The Rock"
Psalm 18:31 and "The Rock" was God

II Corinthians 11:2 Jesus was the "One HUSBAND"
Jeremiah 31:32 and the "One HUSBAND" was God

Matthew 23:8 Jesus was the "ONE MASTER"
Malachi 1:6 and the "ONE MASTER" was God

John 10:16 Jesus was the "One SHEPHERD"
Isaiah 40:11 and the "ONE SHEPHERD" was God

Acts 4:12 Jesus was the "ONE SAVIOR"
Isaiah 45:21 and the "ONE SAVIOR" was God

Luke 1:68 Jesus was the "ONE REDEEMER"
Isaiah 41:14 and the "ONE REDEEMER" was God

Revelation 19:16 Jesus was "LORD OF LORDS
1 Timothy 6:14 Jesus was "LORD OF LORDS
Deuteronomy 10:17 and the "LORD OF LORDS" was God

Philippians 2:10 Every knee must bow to Jesus
Isaiah 45:23 Every knee must bow to God

John 1: 3-10 Jesus was the "ONE CREATOR"
Isaiah 44:24 Jesus was the "ONE CREATOR"
Genesis 1:1 and the "ONE CREATOR" was God

John 1:49 Jesus was "KING OF ISRAEL"
Isaiah 44:6 and the "KING OF ISRAEL" was God

Deuteronomy 4:35 The Lord He is God, there is NONE else beside him

Deuteronomy 4:39 there is None Else

Deuteronomy 6:4 the Lord our God is ONE Lord

Deuteronomy 32:39 I even I, am He and THERE IS NO GOD WITH ME

1 Kings 8:60 The LORD is God - There is None Else

2 Kings 19:15 You ALONE are the only true God

Psalm 86:10 You are God, YOU ALONE

Isaiah 42:8 I am Jehovah, and to no one else shall I give my own glory

Isaiah 43:10,11 Before me there was no God formed
NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME. I, EVEN I AM THE LORD:
AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR.

Isaiah 44:6 I AM THE FIRST, AND THE LAST: AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is NONE ELSE, THERE IS NO GOD BESIDE ME

Isaiah 45:6 There is NONE beside Me. I am the Lord and there is NONE else.

Isaiah 45:15 you are a God, the /god of Israel, a Savior.

Isaiah 45:22 turn to me and be saved. For I am God, and there is no one else

Isaiah 48:11 I will not give my glory unto another.
Isaiah 45:5

Isaiah 48:12 I am he, I am the first, I also am the Last. Revelation 1:8

Hosea 13:4 I am Jehovah your God, there was no God except me, and there was no savior but I.

Joel 2:27 I am your God, and None Else

Zechariah 14:9 In that day shall there be ONE LORD AND HIS NAME ONE

Philippians 2:11 that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father

Matthew 23:9 For one is your Father, the heavenly one

Mark 12:29 Jehovah our god is one Jehovah

**************

The Scriptures tell us that only God is permitted to receive worship (see Matt 4:10; Luke 4:8; Ex 20:2-5)

Yet Jesus receives worship:

"Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, 'Do you believe in the Son of Man?' He answered, 'Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?' Jesus said to him, 'You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.' And he said, 'Lord, I believe.' And he worshiped Him." (John 9:35-38).

"When they got into the boat, the wind stopped. And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, 'You are certainly God's Son!'" (Matt 14:32-33).

"And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'" (Heb 1:6).

We see that the angels of God refuse worship:

"Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'" (Rev 19:10). See also Rev 22:8-9.

Jesus is declared to be God:

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil 2:5-11).

An interesting note here is the Paul stating that "bestowed on Him the name which is above every name." YHWH is referred to as "the Name" (Hebrew, "hashem"). To say that Jesus is above every name can only mean one thing to a Jew like Paul. Only one name is above every name and that is hashem (YHWH). Thus, Paul has unmistakably referred to Jesus as YHWH.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:1-3,14). Note how John 1:1 parallels Genesis 1:1. The parallel is intentional to show that Jesus is the Creator God of Gen 1:1.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities -- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Col 1:15-17).

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col 2:9).

"looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

Jesus is given the same titles and attributes as YHWH. Below are several parallels. For each attribute there are two sets of references. The first reference set is to Jesus and the second is to YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures: (from The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell)

Creator: John 1:3 (Jesus); Isa 40:28 (YHWH)

Savior: John 4:42 (Jesus); Isa 45:22; 43:11 (YHWH)

Raise the dead: John 5:21 (Jesus); I Sam 2:6 (YHWH)

Judge: John 5:27; Matt 25:31-46 (Jesus); Joel 3:12 (YHWH)

Light: John 8:12 (Jesus); Isa 60:19-20 (YHWH)

"I AM": John 8:58; 18:5,6 (Jesus); Ex 3:14 (YHWH)

Shepherd: John 10:11 (Jesus); Ps 23:1 (YHWH)

Glory of God: John 17:1,5 (Jesus); Isa 42:8; 48:11 (YHWH)

First and last: Rev 1:17; 2:8 (Jesus); Isa 41:4; 44:6 (YHWH)

Redeemer: Rev 5:9 (Jesus); Hosea 13:14 (YHWH)

Bridegroom: Rev 21:2; Matt 25:1ff (Jesus); Isa 62:5; Hosea 2:16 (YHWH)

Rock: I Cor 10:4 (Jesus); Ps 18:2 (YHWH)

Forgiver of sins: Mark 2:7,10; Jer 31:34 (YHWH)

Worshiped by angels: Heb 1:6 (Jesus); Ps 148:2 (YHWH)

Addressed in prayer: Acts 7:59 (Jesus); throughout Hebrew Scriptures (YHWH)

Creator of angels: Col 1:16 (Jesus); Ps 148:5 (YHWH)

Confessed as Lord: Phil 2:11 (Jesus); Isa 45:23 (YHWH)

Because of who Jesus is (i.e., YHWH) then we are to give Him the proper respect and worship He deserves.

[Alpha]

tuppence, does one have to confess that Christ is equal to the Father to be saved? If so, can you imagine Christ on judgement day saying that someone cannot enter the kingdom because they thought the Father was greater? After all, wasn't Christ's purpose to glorify the Father? Do you think Christ will care if someone thinks the Father is greater than him?

[Alpha]

I want you to answer my question yes or no. Do not tell me that the Father is not the Son and all these things about the Trinity, because even you said:

Nor does one have to believe in the Trinity or understand it to be saved...

[Alpha]

Also, Aineo gave me a site that challenges most (if not all) Trinitarian verses: http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... le&sid=109

[Alpha]

That site also responds to most of the verses you quoted tuppence (atleast from what I can see). Check it out and I will like to hear your responses.

[tuppence]

tuppence, does one have to confess that Christ is equal to the Father to be saved? If so, can you imagine Christ on judgement day saying that someone cannot enter the kingdom because they thought the Father was greater? After all, wasn't Christ's purpose to glorify the Father? Do you think Christ will care if someone thinks the Father is greater than him?

I'm not going to play that game. Jesus is God. The is the Second Person of the Trinity. He claimed to be God. You can believe HIM or not.

I'll check Aineo's site later. This may sound a bit ironic, but we are getting ready for a Bible study here tonight.

[Aineo]

I will take Jesus' plainly worded statements as trumping your interpretation of "I am". I do not have to interpret "Thee, the only true God", and "my Father and my God" to understand that Jesus is not God. Also, I do not need to invent definition of words to prove a false point. Elohyim, echad, and morphee do not mean what you posted they mean and all you have to do is check any good Hebrew and Greek Lexicon to expose your definitions to be false.

Biblical Unitarian, truthortradition, and Restoration Fellowship are online and can refute all of your proof texts.

As to a Bible study, if you take the time to read all of the threads on this forum all of your proof texts have been addressed, so don't waste your time since you have already shown that you are taking verses out of context and appealing to false definitions.

I started this thread out of respect for you, however since you are not showing respect for another perspective I am locking this thread and you can search this forum and post your Bible study to the appropriate thread.