THIS IS NOT A QURAN AND BIBLE DEBATE !??

[FIGSOLIVES]

THIS IS NOT A QURAN AND BIBLE DEBATE !??

WELL i AM SORRY BUT I HAVE BEEN READING IN THIS FORUM WITHOUT WRITTING FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS OR SO, AND TO BE HONEST WITH YOU I DON'T SEE IT AS A DEBATE, IT IS MORE LIKE SOMEONE WANTS TO FORCE YOU WITH HIS/HER IDEAS BY USING LIES AND OUT OF CONTECT MATERIALS AND EVEN TWISTED MENTALITIES, THIS INCLUDE ALL OF THE CHRISTIANS TOP NAMES IN THIS FORUM ( APPLE PIE, AIENO, SCORPION, ABU RAYESH, .......) YOU GUYS ARE SOMETHING....YOU CALL THIS A DEBATE.....IT IS SO FUNNY WHEN SOME MUSLIM BRINGS YOU SOME SIMPLE PROVES ABOUT THE DIVINITY OF THE QURAN....BUT YOUR METHOD IS VERY CLEAR....SO I WOULD LIKE TO TELL MY MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS.....DON'T WEAST YOUR TIME HERE WITH THESE GUYS....DON'T YOU SEE IT IS ONLY A TRAP FOR YOU....

[Aineo]

If, as you say, you have read been reading these forums for two years then you should have read where Muslims have refused to debate the Qur'an. We have adequately demonstrated the Qur'an contradicts itself, was derived from apocryphal Christian writings, Greek philosophy, Arab paganism, and contains factual errors.

The Qur'an is the trap.

[FIGSOLIVES]

Assalamu Ala man ittabaa Al-Huda....
Assalamu Alaikum my dear muslims...
once again I will say, no man with wisdom will read the Quran and denies it.... well let me start by telling you my fellow muslim brothers and sistes that I am an ex Arab Christian, I am from Jordan...well, as you all know all Arab Christians mother toung is Arabic....our Bible is in Arabic too... and it is much older and more authentic than the English Bibles you may find in the US or UK. Allah is God's name in our Bible....we also use a lot of islamic frases in our daily lifes as you may have noticed by dealing with Arab Christian...the Amaricans are very ignorant in that sence when it comes to the name Allah....and they don't even know that Jesus ( may the love and peace of Allah be upon him ) in preasing to the Lord and the King of Kings he used this name Allah,Aalla, Allahomma, Alloheem...which as you can see these names are all indicate the same name of Allah Almighty, The Lord and The God with a big G and the Creator of all things in this universe....well I execuse them because of their ignorance....but I don't execuse them for not learning....in fact it is very sad when you are dealing or talking with a person who wants to debate something with you and he or she dosn't even know the original name of their Creator!!!!
Like I said I was born in Jordan.....in a small town call Madaba, this city has an old church that goes before islam and the time of Prophet Mohammad ( Salla Allahu Alaihi Wa Sallam )...I was born in a Christian family....my Mom use to take us to church every sunday...it was fun for us....but I never liked to see Jesus stateus almost naked full of blood on the cross and to be told that this is god....I remember I use to go sometimes after school to the church and look at him...and even call him to move or to do something...some people use to come and wipe his feet and kiss it...I never liked that ...going to school with all the Muslim friends....well, I am in a country where the Muslims are the majority and we are the manority...in school, at the class of islam study which we have twice a week, the teacher will tell the Christian student to leave if we want to...then we will all leave...one day when I was in the ninth grade I had a lot of confusun from our Arabic Bible....my Mom will read some very short and selective part of it...and she will skip a lot then read some other selective part... ( that use to bother me a lot) well, her execuse was that we are young and we will not understand it and she even cann't understand it....it is the Preist job to explane it for us...and we are not suppos to read it on our own!!!!...this bothers me more.....back to my classroom, I told the islamic teacher that I want to stay and listen...he asked me.. are you sure...I said yes...then my Christian classmates start to treat me like garbage...they even beat me up one day and told my elder brother who slap me on my face for doing this..I will never forget this big change in my life....I kept attending the islamic classes and I told my family that I am only want to see what the muslim belife....but my family start using different methods with me...they even brought the Preist to our house so he would talk to me!!!!...I hate that man ...he is very rude....I asked him a lot of qoestions but he was going around the subject and ignoring my questions exactly the same you Christians do in this forum!!!...all of this gave me more power to look and read more about islam.....and I have to admit that I only cried from the bottom of my heart when I use to listen to the islamic teacher when he use to recite the Quran at the end of the class....I don't need mathematical proves to tell me that the Quran is the words of Allah Almighty....there is a big difference between the Bible which we had in our home which my Mom use to read for us ...and the Quran ( the Quran is pure like a silky water, perfect like nothing on earth, it's words touches the heart and stays forever, it can be only Allah's words) ....they use to tell me that the Quran has black magic from Satan in it!!!! ..that will let Satan to corrupt your brain and heart....this is all noncence and funny....when I was 19 years of age I came to realize that beleaving in Quran is not enough...but there are many things the person needs to do to become a muslim, because most of muslims around me are not practicing muslims!!! so sad when you have this tresure and you muslims busy in other things....go back to your deen....go back to your gloory....and remember that islam is for all humanity....and Allah will replace you with other people who loves him alone and obey him alone.....I hope you understand me....
Well,....Debate between Quran and Bible.....the Christian group who made this page, they don't have the motive for a fare clean and honest debate...because if they are really in the agony of finding the truth and have the sincerity of admiting the false that they have ...then this debate could be fruitfull....otherwise, which I think the case ....these guys are nothing but a focos preset group to hunt those muslims who has doubts in their belife ...which as you know there are a lot of non practicing muslims who are and might listen to them....but NOT you and denenetly NOT me...because I can prove to them from the Bible that Jesus was a muslim and so all Prophets of Allah Almighty.....I can even prove to all of you that Mohammad ( Salla Allahu Alaihi Wa Sallam ) was mentioned by name!!!! in the Hebro Bible!!!!! ( Mohammadim ) but I not going to wast my time with these people bacause I know their motive......
Next time inshaAllah ( if God Permits or wills ) ...by the way the Arab Christian use this term as well as you all know...Well, next time I will tell the story of Satan, Adam, Eve and why Christians today deniy and don't accept Mohammad ( Salla Allahu Alaihi Wa Sallam )
BUT if these guys will allow me!!???? I wonder????

[Aineo]

Well, that was an interesting post. However, since Aramaic and Hebrew predate Arabic by hundreds of years your appeal to Arab is ludicrous and demonstrates your ignorance of linguistics. The Bible was given to us in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Therefore your Arabic Bible is a translation that is probably no better than the English translations you have criticized. In fact your Arabic translation is most likely translated from the Peshitta, which is an Aramaic translation of the Hebrew and Greek.

Since this is not a Catholic/Orthodox message board your assumption we condone or advocate the use of images also demonstrates your ignorance of at least my posts. You see, if you had read my posts you would have read I do not believe that Jesus is God. The Bible does not teach Jesus is God. Also, I am well aware that one of God's names is Allah in Arabic, but His covenant name is Yaweh - not Allah.

Now if you want to debate the Qur'an then you can start with why the Qur'an tells Muslims that Jesus was not crucified, then tells you he was. You might also explain why Allah told Muhammad the Jews believe Ezra is the son of god when in fact they never have, or why Allah told Muhammad the Trinity is the Father, Son, and Mary instead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

You might also like to explain why the Bible does not teach an eternal hell, sex in the afterlife, and that those who receive eternal life will not spend eternity in heaven but on a new earth created after God's judges those who reject His Messiah as their Lord, King, and High Priest but the Qur'an and Muslim tradition totally contradict what Allah claims are his words.

The Qur'an is a poorly written book of fiction that plagiarized Greek myths, Christian myths, and Arab pagan beliefs.

Now, if you want a debate all you have to do is respond to the above.

[mdibbets]

Sh'ma Yisrael. Hear o' Israel, Our God is One.

There's no such thing as a trinity, that's a roman catholic dogma(dogma is teachings/laws of man, not of God)

Just as it is a roman catholic dogma that mary is the co-redemptrix. it isn't supported by the bible, it's a perverted corruption of the bible.

anyways, I would suggest you would read the old testament for yourself, and see how beatifull the law is given.
I as a christian uphold this law in my life, for it is good, righteous and just. It is more perfect than the law given in the quran, or any law on earth.

Jesus offer simply took away that you have to be punished for your sins, but never took away the law, for it's easier for heaven and earth to pass away then for one letter of the law to be done away with.

God bless,

Michael

[FIGSOLIVES]

"since Aramaic and Hebrew predate Arabic by hundreds of years your appeal to Arab is ludicrous and demonstrates your ignorance of linguistics. The Bible was given to us in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Therefore your Arabic Bible is a translation that is probably no better than the English translations you have criticized. In fact your Arabic translation is most likely translated from the Peshitta, which is an Aramaic translation of the Hebrew and Greek"

Very funny...it looks like you are the guy with ignorance of "linguistics"...look man, my grandfather speaks Hebrow fluently...in fact he has a very old Bible in HEBOW!!!...but you tell me what will be your response if I told you Mohammad was mentioned by his name in the Hebrow Tawrat...and many other things which will make your brain on a frying pot if I will list them to you....but guys like you like I said earlier in my thread doesn't deserve my time for a simple reason man....you are not searching for the truth nore you are ackeing for it ....you already holding firmly for what you have in your hands....but you are a loser cause you base all of your belief on assumptions and illusions.....if and only IF jesus was not the son of god or god in flesh who died for us...then all Christianity will fall....reading from your forum ...it is very clear to see that you guys are VERY ARROGANT....same sin that made Satan to be doomed......I don't see humbelness in your writings nore the love that you guys claim that you have...I see only ARROGANCE which built on IGNORANCE....But Satan was arrogant but he was not ignorant...his hate towards our father Adam and seeing that he is better than him..then Allah to order him to give him respect in a way that shows Adam is above Satan....that order made the corruption which was in his heart to come on serface...he refused Allah's order and said " I am better than him you created me from fire and created him from mud....I refuse to give him respect" so because of his ARROGANCE he was a loser...and who shall follow the steps of Satan when it comes to finding the truth and accepting it even if it comes from the "bedwen, camel jacks felthy arabs" you have to accept it.... see this is a test of your humbleness that Allah made his last Prophet, his Conforter " all together lovely" to be an Arab.

I CHALANGE YOU TO GO AND OPEN A HEBRO BIBLE ON SONGS OF SOLOMON CHAPTER 5 VERSE 16 AND READ.....HICKOO MAMITTAKIN VE KILLU MOHAMMADIM......THE BIG CRIME IS WHEN THEY TRANSLATED MOHAMMADIM INTO ENGLISH THEY TRANSLATED IT AS " ALL TOGETHER LOVELY" !!!!!!????...by the way the IM at the end of MUHAMMAD it means prular of recpect...same as Ellohim..
In what right do you translate a name of a very important person who all the world is a waiting for his coming.... but instead to hide his name!!! don't you think this is worthy of invetigating....BUT do you know when they did accually hide his name ...when they found out that he is an Arab!!!from Mecca " Becca" ...see the jews knew about the comming of Mohammad by name in the city of Medina...so they went there and lived there for a long time hoping that he will come from among them...they even had planned that if he accept us in what we do we will acknowlege him but if he dosen't then we will kill him, ..but when Allah choose for his last Prophet to be an Arab ..they rejected him but some of their Hakhams were humbel enough to accept him and belive in his massage and to inter islam.....ONCE AGIAN WE GO BACK TO ARROGANCE .....WOULD YOU ACCEPT MOHAMMED, ALLAH'S LAST PROPHET WHO HAS TO BE FROM THE ARABS...WOULD YOU ACCEPT HIM AND ACCEPT WHAT HE PREACHED AND TAUGHT TO BE YOUR PROPHET IF HE IS THE TRUE LAST PROPHET FROM ALLAH WHICH JESUS HAD MENTIONED HIM AS WELL OR YOUR ARROGANCE WILL STOP YOU FROM ACCEPTING THE TRUTH WHICH WILL LEAD YOU TO THE SAME SIN OF SATAN WHOS ARROGANCE STOPED HIM FROM ACCEPTING ADAM.....remember that I was a Christian like you...

[Aineo]

Your response is typical of Muslims who say they want to debate and then simply post lies and myths. Your attempt to side step the fact that Hebrew and Aramaic are older language than Arabic is ludicrous. Also as is typical of Muslims you have side stepped my questions concerning the factual errors and contradictions found in the Qur'an.

So your grandfather has a Hebrew Bible and can read Hebrew. I have a cousin who is a linguist and can read and write 19+ languages including Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and both Ancient and Modern Greek. However lets address your ridiculous claim concerning Song of Solomon 5:16:

b) On transliterating Hebrew

In a discussion on the Islamic newsgroup soc.religion.islam (SRI), Zaman argued that Muhammad is prophecied by name in Song of Songs 5:16, and as his argument developed he gave various non-standard transliterations of the word he was discussing. In the following I quote first Zaman's response to being corrected by Andy Bannister, and then Bannister's answer:

> Here Andy Bannister proceeds to "correct" me by contesting my English
> transliteration of Hebrew words. Unless Andy Bannister can introduce
> any official standard for Hebrew transliteration, this entire point is
> lengthy, unnecessary, and ridiculous.

Shibli, this is a complete cop-out. Nearly every elementary grammar of
Hebrew and most dictionaries contain a system of transliteration. While
there is no absolute standard of transliteration, NO PUBLISHED academic
dictionary or grammar would justify ANY of the multiple ways that you
transliterated the word under discussion.

Let me remind our readers once more of the multiple ways in which you tried
to transliterate the singular ("machmad") and the plural ("machamaddim") of
the word in question in Song of Songs 5:16. You variously used:

MACHAMADIM
MACHAMMADIM
MACHAMADD
MACHAMAD
and in this, your most recent post, you added another:
MUCHAMMADIM

Now the reason I pointed out these mistakes is not simply some quibble over
transliteration methods, but that *no* transliteration method would allow
the horrendous mistakes I have quoted above. Let me go further and explain
why each of these is wrong:

1. In the case of "MACHAMADIM", no system of transliteration would justify
not doubling the "D" before the plural ending "IM".

2. In the case of "MACHAMADD", no system of transliteration would justify
doubling a final "D" with no daggesh forte or transliterating a silent shewa
with "A".

3. In the case of "MACHAMAD" no system of transliteration would justify
transliterating silent shewa with "A".

4. In the case of your "MACHAMMADIM", no system of transliteration would
justify doubling a "M" without a daggesh forte.

5. In the case of your "MUCHAMMADIM", no system of transliteration would
justify the "U", nor doubling a "M" without a daggesh forte.

As I have already said, what is most ironic is that you contradict not only
the transliteration systems used by the authorative dictionaries and
grammars, but you also contradict *YOURSELF* from one page to the next.

(Source: Andy Bannister, Re: PART 1 OF 4 : [The claim that Muhammad is found in Song of Songs 5:16], SRI posting on 2000/04/17)
http://www.answering-islam.org/Response ... stency.htm

Prior to Muhammad and the spread of Islam by the sword Arabic was a minor language with no literary history. Therefore, to try to force an Arabic rendering to a Hebrew word that existed thousands of years before Arabic became a written language only demonstrates a lack of scholarship, knowledge, and wisdom.

Now, are you up to debating the Qur'an or is your only purpose for posting here to spread lies. Muhammad and the Qur'an promote lying to advance Islam, so I guess I should not be surprised by your post or the tenor of your posts.

And BTW, your were never a "Christian like me", since I never accepted Catholic/Orthodox traditions. Your own words refute your statement as you never studied the Bible to see if what your priest taught was true.

[FIGSOLIVES]

Assalamu Alaikum my dear Muslims....

See how selly and redicules his respond to the name of Mohammadim that is found in the Bible and translated by " All together lovely" !!!! so funny isn't it....Also did you see the Arrogance I was talking about...first of all instead of accepting the truth and be humble enough and say yes Mohammad was mentioned by name in the bible...look at his answer!!!
he wants to apply rules of bla bla bla dictioneries and grammar of hebrow and he posted some weired guy as if he is the one who can tell us how to translate names?????!!! and they keep forgeting that you don't translate names...this is a fact that all poeple know.....nobody has the right to translate names...BUT if your aim is to hide the truth because of your envy and the sickness of your heart then it is a deffirent story....
example: if you are an Arab and your name is Hussam....and you are a very important man...like a king of some country...would you accept if they write your name in books as Sword....or can we translate the name of Saudi King Abdullah into The Slave of Allah....this is exactly what the jews did to the name of our Prophet Muhammad that is written in their Tawrat....and the funny part is that the Christians they are acting as their attornies trying to hide this horrible mistake that was left in the Bible...
beleive me they wish if the earth could split and swallow that line from their Bible....BUT Allah Almighty made them to forget it so it will be a clear evidence on them on The Day of Judgement.....
Go Ahead Mr. Aeino..and beat around the bushes.... and cut and paste from other people thinking that what you have done is the answer of my CHALANGE to you......names cann't be translated....but I think you don't look at Mohammadim as a name you want to see it as a meaning because if it is a name then you have no way out not accepting Mohammad but if it is only a meaning then you are free from it....this is the logic and mentality of typical Jewish people when they want to twist any material from Allah!!!!....
Once again we go back to ARROGANCE in you heart that you don't want to accept the truth because you think you are BETTER....too bad man...too bad...
My dear brothers and sisters in islam....as I told you before this is not a place for the muslims to be in ....simply because it has been estableshed as a war against islam.....but they are the losers off corse .....on Judegement Day I will look for all of you Mr. Aeion, Abu Raess, Apile pie...and all the rest of you.....then we shall see who will be the winner...you or islam.....islam will be the winner... and you have no right to claim jesus...he will be on our side......and we shall see.

[FIGSOLIVES]

Mr. Aineo....
I am not going to debate the Quran with you....I will leave this to my muslim brothers.....BUT as an ex Arab Christian I will debate the Bible with you....it make more sence...don't you think so?...Well, this is a "Quran AND Bible debate"...right ?....then we shall see who knows the Bible more you or me....
First question: I Chalange you to list for me the 10 cases of incest that is found in the Bible....
INCEST: it means sexula relation between close relatives, like father with daughter, mother with son, brother with sister.
Go ahead and list for us the 10 cases of incest in the Bible, and let's start with Prophet Lut and his 2 Daughters....and explain to us what morality this teaches us.....and what benefit it has...I will tell you some in case you don't know....in the US alone there are more than 10% of incest practiced inside the homes!!!! if you ask me why I will tell you it is the Bible who teaches the poeple to do so....if the Daughters of Lut can do it why can't I do it.....

[mdibbets]

Well then figsolives, lets look at the context...

Song of songs 5

1 I have come into my garden, my sister, my bride;
I have gathered my myrrh with my spice.
I have eaten my honeycomb and my honey;
I have drunk my wine and my milk.


Eat, O friends, and drink;
drink your fill, O lovers.


2 I slept but my heart was awake.
Listen! My lover is knocking:
"Open to me, my sister, my darling,
my dove, my flawless one.
My head is drenched with dew,
my hair with the dampness of the night."

3 I have taken off my robe—
must I put it on again?
I have washed my feet—
must I soil them again?

4 My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening;
my heart began to pound for him.

5 I arose to open for my lover,
and my hands dripped with myrrh,
my fingers with flowing myrrh,
on the handles of the lock.

6 I opened for my lover,
but my lover had left; he was gone.
My heart sank at his departure. [a]
I looked for him but did not find him.
I called him but he did not answer.

7 The watchmen found me
as they made their rounds in the city.
They beat me, they bruised me;
they took away my cloak,
those watchmen of the walls!

8 O daughters of Jerusalem, I charge you—
if you find my lover,
what will you tell him?
Tell him I am faint with love.

Friends
9 How is your beloved better than others,
most beautiful of women?
How is your beloved better than others,
that you charge us so?

Beloved
10 My lover is radiant and ruddy,
outstanding among ten thousand.

11 His head is purest gold;
his hair is wavy
and black as a raven.

12 His eyes are like doves
by the water streams,
washed in milk,
mounted like jewels.

13 His cheeks are like beds of spice
yielding perfume.
His lips are like lilies
dripping with myrrh.

14 His arms are rods of gold
set with chrysolite.
His body is like polished ivory
decorated with sapphires.

15 His legs are pillars of marble
set on bases of pure gold.
His appearance is like Lebanon,
choice as its cedars.

16 His mouth is sweetness itself;
he is altogether lovely.
This is my lover, this my friend,
O daughters of Jerusalem.

So, looking at the context of this chapter, and the entire book of solomon, mohammed was a guy who longed for his girl, and a girl swooned about?

How do you feel about the mouth of the prophet being sweetness itself(as in kissing?)

One thing about song of songs, it's not a prophetic book. if you would have given this answer to a psalm verse or anything, well, you would have been given a little bit credit... but to try to justify that mohammed was predicted in a verse where lovers intimately describe eachother... is just plain hiliarious.

Yes, I am making fun of you. Why? because you'd probaly do the same if I would do the same thing with a verse out of the qu'ran.

If i'd stated that I was predicted in the qu'ran, and that I'm some big shot prophet because my name appears in a transliteration process and everybody should follow me, or forever be tortured by fluffy pink bunny's with sugarcanes, you'd laugh at me too.

Song of songs 5:16(KJV+)
yea, he is altogether3605 lovely.4261

Strongs number: 3605
H3605
כּול כּלo
kôl kôl
kole, kole
From H3634; properly the whole; hence all, any or every (in the singular only, but often in a plural sense): - (in) all (manner, [ye]), altogether, any (manner), enough, every (one, place, thing), howsoever, as many as, [no-] thing, ought, whatsoever, (the) whole, whoso (-ever).

Strongs number: H4261
מחמד
machmâd
makh-mawd'(how it is pronounced is this)
From H2530; delightful; hence a delight, that is, object of affection or desire: - beloved, desire, goodly, lovely, pleasant (thing).

well... I've heard mohammeds name pronounced a lot of ways, mo, moh, mhommy, etc... but makmawt was never one of them... it takes a long stretch of the imagination to see mohammeds name here, especially since it's totally totally out of context.

Now, if you start whining about arrogance, it is because you started a discussion without having investigated, and if you whine it just shows how foolish you are.

Romans 1:22
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

[Aineo]

THIS IS NOT A QURAN AND BIBLE DEBATE !??

WELL i AM SORRY BUT I HAVE BEEN READING IN THIS FORUM WITHOUT WRITTING FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS OR SO, AND TO BE HONEST WITH YOU I DON'T SEE IT AS A DEBATE, IT IS MORE LIKE SOMEONE WANTS TO FORCE YOU WITH HIS/HER IDEAS BY USING LIES AND OUT OF CONTECT MATERIALS AND EVEN TWISTED MENTALITIES, THIS INCLUDE ALL OF THE CHRISTIANS TOP NAMES IN THIS FORUM ( APPLE PIE, AIENO, SCORPION, ABU RAYESH, .......) YOU GUYS ARE SOMETHING....YOU CALL THIS A DEBATE.....IT IS SO FUNNY WHEN SOME MUSLIM BRINGS YOU SOME SIMPLE PROVES ABOUT THE DIVINITY OF THE QURAN....BUT YOUR METHOD IS VERY CLEAR....SO I WOULD LIKE TO TELL MY MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS.....DON'T WEAST YOUR TIME HERE WITH THESE GUYS....DON'T YOU SEE IT IS ONLY A TRAP FOR YOU....

Mr. Aineo....
I am not going to debate the Quran with you....I will leave this to my muslim brothers....

So which is it? First you complain you do not see a debate and then you refuse to debate. In response to your charge I asked for an explanation of the misinformation found in the Qur'an, your only response was to appeal to a myth concerning Muhammad being named in the Bible and now you want to discuss incest.

It is a historical fact that Hebrew and Aramaic predate Arabic as a written language by at least a thousand years. Therefore when Muslims try to bastardize Hebrew to find Muhammad's name they are appealing to myths, and demonstrate a lack of knowledge and wisdom.

Now when you address my questions I will address yours.

Factual errors in the Qur'an:
The Trinity is God, Jesus, and Mary.
Jews believe Ezra is the Son of God.

Major contradiction in the Qur'an:
Jesus was crucified
Jesus was not crucified

Moral dilemma found in the Qur'an:
Muslims cannot lie; Muslims can lie.

Based on this last one, why should anyone believe anything a Muslim posts?

[FIGSOLIVES]

There's no such thing as a trinity, that's a roman catholic dogma(dogma is teachings/laws of man, not of God)

Just as it is a roman catholic dogma that mary is the co-redemptrix. it isn't supported by the bible, it's a perverted corruption of the bible.

Well done mdbbets...very good
So we booth agree that there is no such trinity....BUT alot of Christians out there will disagree with this... all the Christians that I lived with, grow up with believe with Trinity....and by the way Aineo said "Allah told Muhammad the Trinity is the Father, Son, and Mary instead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. ....this a big lie.....Allah said " Those who said that Allah is three has comited KUFUR ( become an infidel)....
[size=24 لقد كفر الذين قالوا إن الله ثالث ثلاثة و مامن إله إلا إله و’حد و إن لم ينتهوا عما يقولون ليمسنَ الذين كفروا منهم عذاب أليم ( 5- 73) القرآن
See there is no mentioning who are the three....it could be any ones of the 4 you listed above....well Allah kept it without mentioning so you can pick any three you want...and geuss what Christians do that....some of them will pick mary some don't...but the Trinity is there.
You guys have no problem to lie....well, Jesus had died for your sins so go ahead and lie all of life. However we Muslims don't lie because it is a sin and we will be judeged for every atom of good deed and every atom of bad deed and thats including lies....so don't lie to prove your statement...it is a shame when you lie without any feelings that you are doing a big mistake towards yourselves....
I have to go now .....

[Aburaees]

However we Muslims don't lie because it is a sin and we will be judeged for every atom of good deed and every atom of bad deed and thats including lies....so don't lie to prove your statement...it is a shame when you lie without any feelings that you are doing a big mistake towards yourselves....
I have to go now .....

Do you believe in the Hadiths of Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim?

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857:
Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:

That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."

.

[mdibbets]

I'm sorry, but i'm a tad bit offended by your statement that we have no problem with lying.

I for one, have a very very big problem with lies, and I hate lies.
I am in a church, which goes by bible alone, and the bible teaches that the law has to be upheld(behaviour laws, hygenic laws, Gods law, food laws, etc...) for it's for the better, although you cannot earn your salvation by keeping the law, because the law in itself brings death.

The bible never teaches that Jesus is God Himself, although if you wish to see that in the bible, you can see it, but you have to close your mind off from all other interpretations.

The most important counter argument against the trinity dogma is "Hear o Israel, The LORD our God is one"

Now, I must say, I cannot read arabic, nor do I intend to learn it I can read hebrew with a dictionary, and that is kinda where it stops .
Neither am I an expert in the qu'ran, but what I do know, is that there are muslims, who have accepted Christ as their saviour, through the qu'ran, because the qu'ran also teaches salvation through Christ. So i'm not one of those Christians to completely dis the qu'ran, although I don't agree with all of it.

The same I could say of the jehova's bible, it's left out a lot of things, but people could come to real faith through their bible and be saved by Christ.

What I seem to remeber from my sis in Christ, is that the qu'ran has somewhere this verse to treat the people of the book with respect because they have the same word of God or something in that context.
I also know of muslims being very peacefull and loving and hospitable(although here in the netherlands I kinda don't notice that, because they've grown fond of sex, money and alcohol) when they are in their own culture and country, and it's not ruled by an extremist goverment.

After all, we all have our roots in Abraham, I through spiritual adoption through Christ, you by descent via Ishmael or also spiritual adoption. We are in essence brothers.

Now, may I advice you, to treat us as your brothers, with respect and dignity. Yes we can disagree, yes we can argue, but keep the respect up, for we are both descendants from Abraham through our faith.

Your qu'ran gives an insight, from the vieuwpoint of ishmael and his descendants, our bible gives the other side, from isaac and his descendants.
Only if we speak historically, I would give the bible more credibility than the qu'ran because it's backed up on all fronts by archeology and science, plus it was written over a perioud of roughly 1500 years, and the qu'ran has been given by divine revelation, which makes it in my eyes a bit sketchy, because you will not find any previous records to back up the claims, if you know what I mean, or older manuscripts to confirm the authenticity.
The bible is backed up in authenticity by heaps of "secular" sources of script, repeatedly referred to, and the events concerning the nation israel is also recorded in archeology and historic records of other nations.

The bible has a stronger point as a historically 100% accurate report of events, and personality of God because of it's accuracy(if the one is true, then the other is also true), and the qu'ran is given by divine revelation...

What would you say that the strong points of the qu'ran are, and why it's undoubtly accurate historically, and about the character of God?

[Aineo]

I will repeat, the Bible does not teach God is a Trinity. The Bible is clear that there is but one God, the Father. Jesus confirms this in John 17:3 as does Paul in 1st Corinthians 8:6. In fact I set up a forum dedicated to disproving the Trinity. You might actually learn what the Bible actually teaches by visiting this forum:
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewforum.php?f=172

Now, as to your denial of what is found in the Qur'an:

005.116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah ? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo!
http://www.islam101.com/quran/QTP/QTP005.htm

I do not know of any mainline or splinter Christian group that believes or has ever taught Mary is a “God”. Therefore despite your denial the Qur’an does contain factual errors. There is a growing movement among Catholics to have Mary declared co-redemptrix with Jesus, however this is not official Catholic dogma.

As to Islam and lying, you have only demonstrated your ignorance of the religion you are promoting. Allah allegedly told Muhammad in 2:225, 5:89, 16:106, and etc. that lying under certain circumstances is fine. Also Aburaees has exposed your lie from your own literature.

009.030 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
http://www.islam101.com/quran/QTP/QTP009.htm

This is another factual error. The Jews do not now and have never taught Ezra is the son of God.

The one and only true God instructs Christians through Jesus His Messiah and unique son to “love your neighbor as yourself” and to “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”. However Allah allegedly told Muhammad to “kill unbelievers where you find them” (4:8-9), which exposes the lie that Islam is a religion of peace.

[Joseph]

....However we Muslims don't lie because it is a sin and we will be judeged for every atom of good deed and every atom of bad deed and thats including lies....so don't lie to prove your statement...it is a shame when you lie without any feelings that you are doing a big mistake towards yourselves....

The shame is all yours along with fellow Muslims. You're a liar for saying Muslims don't lie and are not permitted to lie. You and anyone else who denies Lord Jesus is the Living Son of the Living God; true God from true God, the One and Only Almighty God, are the sons of Satan.

Another thing Figs, you're a fraud, claiming to be Christian convert to Islam. I am former Muslim Arab that was pulled out from the blackhole called Islam by Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. I can smell the stench of lying Muslims and know them regardless of thier disguises.

As for the supposed Christians who don't believe the Bible teaches a threefold God, you're headed to same place as those who deny Christ Jesus is God. Nonetheless, Figs has won this debate, but only because you are worse liars: if such could be possible

servant of Lord Jesus the One and Only Almighty God
joseph

[Joseph]

nm

[Aineo]

As for the supposed Christians who don't believe the Bible teaches a threefold God, you're headed to same place as those who deny Christ Jesus is God. Nonetheless, Figs has won this debate, but only because you were worse liars: if such could be possible

servant of Lord Jesus the One and Only Almighty God
joseph

Instead of voicing your opinion, which BTW is founded in Greek philosophy and paganism why not contribute your thoughts in the Trinity Debate Forum. You see Joseph, the pure word of God delivered to us refutes the Trinity. As an ex-Trinitarian I think you are the one who is denying God's truth when you do not believe the Lord Jesus Christ's own words:

"For this is eternal life, that they may know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." John 17:3

Did Jesus lie?

[FIGSOLIVES]

Wow wow....MashaAllah...I can see that all of the gang are here now...not quite, let see...we still missing miss Apple Pie, Scorpion...and the rest...very good, I feel myself in a boxing ring with all of you around me....but it is ok guys....I want you to always remember that I am an ex Christian Arab.....OK...because things are going good.... and the sickness of your hearts is coming out in this thread alltogether.... let me start with Mr. Aburaees....I will give a nick name fits you better ( AbuJahl )...let see why...

Al-Lawh Al-Mahfooz - The preserved Tablet

First of all, Al-lawh Al-mahfooz is something and what you had quoted from the Quran and Hadeeth is something else.... I know exactly why you picked this name ...just to show the wickedness of you heart ....this is an Evil act from you...it is a pure BLASPHEMY from you....but off corse you guys own this forum so you can do whatsoever you wish...shame on you....and I will pray and ask Allah Almighty to deal with you...and he will ....and you shall see it...but I will ask Allah to give it to you on judgement day where we all will meet ....your illustrations of Quran and Hadeeth with your opening statment shows how AbuJahl you are....."History repeats itself" I thought you are better than miss Apple pie but you proved me wrong....
Now let me tell you somthing AbuJahl....if you have problems with your wife ...a big issue ...and you hate her guts, but you guys have 3 kids involve ....your mother gets in between the booth of you and she start telling her that he loves you and he wants you to forgive him..and she comes to you and tell you please son she is a good woman for my sake for the sake of your kids...... would you consider your Mom a liyer....if the answer is yes then you should see a doctor.
Now let me go back to Mr. Aineo...

005.116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah ? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo!

SURAH 5 AL-MA'IDAH - VERSE 116
* AND (REMEMBER) WHEN ALLAH WILL SAY ( ON THE DAY OF RESURRECTION): " O 'IESA(JESUS), SON OF MARYAM (MARY)! DID YOU SAY UNTO MEN: 'WORSHIP ME AND MY MOTHER AS TWO gods BESIDES ALLAH?' " HE WILL SAY: "GLORY BE TO YOU! IT WAS NOT FOR ME TO SAY WHAT I HAD NO RIGHT (TO SAY). HAD I SAID SUCH A THING, YOU WOULD SURELY HAVE KNOWN IT. YOU KNOW WHAT IS IN MY INNER-SELF THOUGH I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS IN YOURS, TRULY, YOU, ONLY YOU, ARE THE ALL-KNOWER OF ALL THAT IS HIDDEN AND UNSEEN.
*117* NEVER DID I SAY TO THEM AUGHT EXCEPT WHAT YOU (ALLAH) DID COMMAND ME TO SAY: 'WORSHIP ALLAH, MY LORD AND YOUR LORD.' AND I WAS A WITNESS OVER THEM WHILE I DWELT AMONGST THEM, BUT WHEN YOU TOOK ME UP, YOU WERE THE WATCHER OVER THEM, AND YOU ARE A WITNESS TO ALL THINGS.
*118* IF YOU PUNISH THEM, THEY ARE YOUR SLAVES, AND IF YOU FORGIVE THEM, VERILY YOU, ONLY YOU ARE THE ALL-MIGHTY, THE ALL-WISE.
*119* ALLAH WILL SAY: "THIS IS A DAY ON WHICH THE TRUTHFUL WILL PROFIT FROM THEIR TRUTH: THEIRS ARE GARDENS UNDER WHICH RIVERS FLOW ( IN PARADISE ) - THEY SHALL ABIDE THEREIN FOREVER. ALLAH IS PLEASED WITH THEM AND THEY WITH HIM. THAT IS THE GREAT SUCCESS.
What a great and nice words that make your heart sing with love to Allah...
So did you get the true meaning Mr. Aineo....gods here it means not GODS...there is a big defferet man....it means idols...so you don't think a lot of Christians are taking Mary as an idol .....or do you want me to prove it to you....how many statue of mary today all over the world man...you can't even count them....we had sevral in our house....my Mom she still pray to her.....why because she is the mother of GOD ...he can never put her word down....and yet in the Bible we see Jesus calling his mother " woman" what a big liyer who ever wrote this about jesus: calling his Mom woman....do you want to know what the Quran told me about how Jesus adreses his Mom...OK
SURAH 19. MARYAM (MARY) FROM VERCE 29
*29* THEN SHE POINTED TO HIM ( BABY JESUS ) . THEY SAID: " HOW CAN WE TALK TO ONE WHO IS A CHILD IN THE CRADLE?"
*30* "HE ['IESA (JESUS)] SAID: VERILY! I AM A SLAVE OF ALLAH, HE HAS GIVEN ME THE SCRIPTURE AND MADE ME A PROPHET;"
*31* " AND HE HAS MADE ME BLESSED WHERESOEVER I BE, AND HAS ENJOINED ON ME SALAT (PRAYER), AND ZAKAT (THE OBLIGATORY CHARITY), AS LONG AS I LIVE."
*32* KIND AND DUTIFUL TO MY MOTHER, AND MADE ME NOT ARROGANT, UNBLEST.
This is the personality of Jesus towards his Mom....accually in arabic "wa barran biwalidati" the word Ba'r....is much softer and gentle than kind and dutiful....there is no such word in english to replace it...BUT this is the caracter of Jesus that I do love and accept....and I will leave "woman" for you because it fits your ARROGANCE.

Now let me respond to Mr/Ms. mdibbets.
go ahead and at me as much as you want...I have no problem with that....Mohammad was mentioned by name in the Bible.....I know the Bible is very much corrupted but somehow his name is there...why in that song I don't know....you can notice also if you pay more attention to that song...who ever wrote it was drunk this will add more divinity to the Bible... I wonder.
oh by the way could you please post for me BUT fromTHE NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION, EZAIKIEL 23...I would like to see more evidence of the divinity of the Bible....please go ahead ..let us read throgh it.
Back to Mr. Aineo.....I am still waiting for you to give me the ten cases of incest that mentioned in the Bible....this is a reminder in case you forgot.

[Aineo]

Okay, your name calling will cease or you will be expelled, just like any spoiled obnoxious child is expelled from school.

As to what you posted concerning lying, your explanation is ludicrous and did not address what the Qur'an states. Also, since other Muslims have told us we need to take the Hadiths into consideration your attempt to bypass what Ambereas posted only shows your lack of knowledge concerning Islam. Also you did not address the fact that Christians do not view Mary as a god or as part of a triune God. In other words you side stepped the factual error in the Qur'an. You also did not address the error concerning Ezra and the fact the Qur'an contradicts itself concerning the Qur'an.

The fact you were born in a family that attended a Christian church does not make you an ex-Christian, therefore to maintain you are an ex-Christian is just another Muslim lie.

I have posted that I will discuss incest when you have responded to all my initial questions, none of which you have actually addressed. This is typical of Muslims who cannot rationalize the foolishness of the Qur'an or the Quixotic meanderings of your self-proclaimed prophet.

[mdibbets]

Ezek.23
[1] The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
[2] Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:
[3] And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.
[4] And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.
[5] And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,
[6] Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses.
[7] Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself.
[8] Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.
[9] Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted.
[10] These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her.
[11] And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.
[12] She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men.
[13] Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way,
[14] And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,
[15] Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:
[16] And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea.
[17] And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.
[18] So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.
[19] Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
[20] For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
[21] Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.
[22] There, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;
[23] The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses.
[24] And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments.
[25] And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.
[26] They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.
[27] Thus will I make thy lewdness to cease from thee, and thy whoredom brought from the land of Egypt: so that thou shalt not lift up thine eyes unto them, nor remember Egypt any more.
[28] For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated:
[29] And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.
[30] I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.
[31] Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand.
[32] Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.
[33] Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.
[34] Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
[35] Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast forgotten me, and cast me behind thy back, therefore bear thou also thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.
[36] The LORD said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations;
[37] That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.
[38] Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.
[39] For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house.
[40] And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments,
[41] And satest upon a stately bed, and a table prepared before it, whereupon thou hast set mine incense and mine oil.
[42] And a voice of a multitude being at ease was with her: and with the men of the common sort were brought Sabeans from the wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns upon their heads.
[43] Then said I unto her that was old in adulteries, Will they now commit whoredoms with her, and she with them?
[44] Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.
[45] And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.
[46] For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.
[47] And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.
[48] Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness.
[49] And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

You ask, we deliver.

Now your argument is probaly going to be based upon, how can this language be used, bladie bla, how can such vulgair text appear in an aperently inspired book, bla die bla. Been there done that.

Do you think that God does not know what whoring is, how it's done? when it's done? Do you think God is a polite God, who does not adress it?

"Oh... you're a whore... well, stop doing it, and be a good girl"
No, He will bring every aspect to light, and show the total full shame of that person. Everything will be exposed.

Israel, has been, and still is a whore to false Gods, they follow after everything, except the true one God.

This bible chapter is just showing the total and utter holy disgust of God as Israel and samaria. He just sums up all their transgressions, and puts them into a parable so they can be seen for how disgusting they really are.

Would you like to have a friendship relation with a whore? to be know as a friend of a whore? someone whore's confide in, and yet to be known as a true follower of the One God?

I suspect not... Well, God feels the same... He is the God of Israel... and Israel totally behaves like a whore, making God looking bad, weak and feeble.
Do you find it weird He is disgusted?

Michael

[Aineo]

FIGSOLIVES' argument is most likely going to be that God has totally rejected Israel and the Jews by replacing them with Muhammad, the Qur'an, and Islam.

Reread FIGSOLIVES' opening post:

WELL i AM SORRY BUT I HAVE BEEN READING IN THIS FORUM WITHOUT WRITTING FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS OR SO, AND TO BE HONEST WITH YOU I DON'T SEE IT AS A DEBATE, IT IS MORE LIKE SOMEONE WANTS TO FORCE YOU WITH HIS/HER IDEAS BY USING LIES AND OUT OF CONTECT MATERIALS AND EVEN TWISTED MENTALITIES,

He accuses us of taking "materials" out of context and then does the same. It is hypocritical of Muslims to appeal to one chapter of an alleged corrupted Bible to prove their point while at the same time ignoring those chapters that predict the restoration of Judah and Samaria as a single nation beloved of God.

Ezekiel 36
36:1 "Son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD. 2 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: The enemy said of you, "Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession." ' 3 Therefore prophesy and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because they ravaged and hounded you from every side so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations and the object of people's malicious talk and slander, 4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Sovereign LORD: This is what the Sovereign LORD says to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, to the desolate ruins and the deserted towns that have been plundered and ridiculed by the rest of the nations around you- 5 this is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my burning zeal I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, for with glee and with malice in their hearts they made my land their own possession so that they might plunder its pastureland.' 6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I speak in my jealous wrath because you have suffered the scorn of the nations. 7 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I swear with uplifted hand that the nations around you will also suffer scorn.

8 "'But you, O mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. 9 I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, 10 and I will multiply the number of people upon you, even the whole house of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. 11 I will increase the number of men and animals upon you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the LORD. 12 I will cause people, my people Israel, to walk upon you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.

13 "'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because people say to you, "You devour men and deprive your nation of its children," 14 therefore you will no longer devour men or make your nation childless, declares the Sovereign LORD. 15 No longer will I make you hear the taunts of the nations, and no longer will you suffer the scorn of the peoples or cause your nation to fall, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"
16 Again the word of the LORD came to me: 17 "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman's monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, 'These are the LORD's people, and yet they had to leave his land.' 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

33 "'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. 35 They will say, "This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited." 36 Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the LORD have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it.'

37 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Once again I will yield to the plea of the house of Israel and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, 38 as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the LORD."
(from New International Version)

Verses 33-36 are being fulfilled today. The Jews have turned Israel into a cultivated land. This prophesy will be totally fulfilled when Jesus returns to rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

[FIGSOLIVES]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

إن الحمد لله نحمده و نستعينه و نستغفره و نعوذ بالله من شرور أنفسنا و من سيآت أعمالنا, من يهده الله فهو المهتد و من يضلل فلن تجد له ولياً مرشداً.

All Praise is to Allah, we Praise Him and seek His Help, we ask for His Forgiveness and we seek refuge in Allah from the evil of our souls and from the sins of our deeds, whom Allah Guides is guided, whom Allah Leads Astray you will never find for him a guiding friend.
• يأيها الذين ءامنوا اتقوا الله حق تقاته و لا تموتُنَ إلا و أنتم مسلمون* آل عمران 102
"O you who believe! Fear Allah truthfully as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam"
Dear Muslims.....Assalamu Alaikum.

when Muslims try to bastardize Hebrew to find Muhammad's name

You and anyone else who denies Lord Jesus is the Living Son of the Living God; true God from true God, the One and Only Almighty God, are the sons of Satan.

It is hypocritical of Muslims to appeal to one chapter of an alleged corrupted Bible to prove their point

Okay, your name calling will cease or you will be expelled, just like any spoiled obnoxious child is expelled from school.

See the good character and full of love you have!....you treat me with double standards, like the American foreign policy, lol....Mr. Aineo, you think the jews whom you put yourself as their attorney without even they ask to do so.....you think they give a hoot about you and about Jesus and his Mom Mary.... they the one who killed him (supposedly) and they call him bastard and they call him Mom a whore ( excuse my language but if your god uses the same word them it is OK for me )...May Allah curse their tongs, give them the punishment they deserve... those Jews who you love Mr. Aineo hates you more than they hate muslims… once I met an Orthodox jew in New York in my friend's house while we were chatting he smiled at me and told me "I will tell you a secret"...I told him go ahead ...he said "we respect muslims as a faith more than Christians and we are told if you see 2 men drowning in the water one is muslim and the other is Christian we have to save the muslim"!! ...I asked why is that? he replied ..."because muslims are closer to us in their faith than Christians"!!! and he said we don't tell these things to anyone and we do have a lot of things which are only for the jews to know!!!...he even told me that they have a very old Torah in Israel no body is allowed to see it except the very high Hakhams, two years later in my next visit, I met him Again , he was a muslim!! he invited us to his home, he told me I want you to meet friend of mine. we went to his house and met his friend ...he greeted me islamicly with a great warmth!!! He was an Orthodox jew who became a muslim too!! he start asking me questions about why I changed my faith into Islam... he told me that the reason of his conversion to islam was after he immigrates with his family to the promiss land ( Israel ) they settled in Jerusalem, then he saw the way jews treats the Palestinians " it was awful, I couldn't tolerate and accept the brutality of our people, then I start making friendship relations with the Palestinians, the jews hated me for that and they start treating me and my wife with disrespect, my kids gut hurt by the Jewish kids at school, it became like hell for us, so we came back and in less than a year me and my all family accepted islam…and I Praise Allah for guiding us into the truth".
I called my friend 2 days a go to ask his friend if the jews believe that Uzair is the son of God, he called me today and told me " YES THEY DO BUT IT IS NOT FOUND IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE and only Orthodox jews know about this, but he is not THE son of God in the same way Christians look into Jesus, he was great for them for the temple was built in his time at the time of the Persian empire …he also added they say the same about david and it is in the bible Psalms 2:7 …..Thou ( O David ) ART MY SON; this day have I (God) BEGOTTEN thee." They have it in their own scripture which has nothing to do with Christianity."

Verses 33-36 are being fulfilled today. The Jews have turned Israel into a cultivated land. This prophesy will be totally fulfilled when Jesus returns to rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

Mr. Aineo ...you think you brought something new....Allah told us in the Quran that he will gather the Jews in the Holy land but do you know why...for their destruction....even the Jews they know that...in their prophecies ( weather it is true or not) their Kingdom will last only 76 years according to the Hail Star...they got their kingdom officially in 1948 now 1948 + 76 = 2024 after 2024 they will be no more isreal...some jews are against the state of isreal because of this....and do you know who will wipe them out..the muslims, there will be ARMAGEDON and you think Jesus is going to come and take you guys up into the Clouds while he finishes his job on earth then you will come down and live in his kingdom....keep on dreaming man.....
Jesus will come down from heaven as a muslim, he will come into Damascus, in Ghuta, he will kill the False Mesaya which you guys will be following and he will kill the Pig and break the cross... don't you think the cross is an idol, worshiped beside God, well, I do.

Now let us go back to the ten cases of incest found in the Bible...I covered all of your questions....now we are going to debate the bible..by the way you said that you don't beleive in Trinity.....and God is one and jesus is not God, so if he is not God and God is only one...so what that make Jesus to be? ....please explain to me....is he the son of God? ..if you answer is yes then you don't beleive in Trinity but you believe in Twinity...but if he is not the son of God then he is a Prophet of God and God is only ONE ...this will make sense to me...but no one on earth will be saved unless he believe in Mohammad ( SAAWS)...and accept the Quran as the Final Book for mankind and live his life acording to it, not by lip sevice only...to live as a muslim by the book...a lot of born in islam are not muslims because they don't live by the book...if you don't pray your 5 daily prayer you are no muslim any more...same goes for the obligatory charity of the wealth, the fasting and the Hajj only if you have the wealth and health to do it....you think Paradise is cheap...NO it is very expensive and requier a lot of hard working and no muslim is garanteed to go to Paradise...we don't know ...we do our best to go there...but only Allah knows who will make it there......see Mr. Aineo when we invite poeple to islam we don't tell them love Allah, accept him as your only Lord and you will go to Paradise....we the only poeple on earth that promiss you hellfire first ...then you have to do your best to save yourself from it. and as long as you live Satan is always there to tempt you to reject faith or to stop doign your obligations....so only when you die the battle will be over with Satan...

Mr. Aineo, you are talking about contradictions in the Quran...which again proof your ignorance....there is no contradictions in the Quran...I hope you understand what I had told you about Mary bening the one of the Trinity...The Quran never mentioned Mary to be the one of the Trinity....this was your poor understanding...if you know Arabic then it will be easer for you to understand......BUT let us talk now about the contradictions found in the the Bible and I mean a real Contradictions not assumptions or misunderstanding.....
I will give you a killer ones that will make your brain fries like frensh fries..
" And Jesus saith....for with God ALL THINGS are possible." Mark10:27, Mathew19:26
CONTRADICT BY:
" And the Lord was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but COULD NOT drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." Judges1:19

THE BIG ONE:
" God is not a man, that he should lie, neither the son of man, that he should REPENT...." Numbers23:19
CONTRADICT BY:
"11- And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forthout of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12- Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and REPENT of this EVIL against thy people.
13- Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, andsaidst unto them, I will multiplyyour seed as the stars of heaven,and all this land that I have spokenof will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14- And the Lord REPENTED of the EVIL which he THOUGHT to do unto his people.
What a contradiction here....but this exact chapter which made me see and realize the fabrication of the Bible....GOD ALL-MIGHTY was thinking of doing EVIL act to his people.... then Moses convenced him not to....what kind of god is this and this is a true contradiction black and white Mr. Aineo....you tell me what do you think about this please?
and don't forget the 10 cases of incest....because I am waiting ....

[FIGSOLIVES]

sorry I forgot to put the last part of contradictions is found in EXODUS32:11-14

[Aburaees]

those Jews who you love Mr. Aineo hates you more than they hate muslims…

That's not what the Qur'an says:

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[Aineo]

You have yet to address my questions. As to your Jewish friends who converted to Islam, can you explain why thousands of Muslims are converting to Christianity on a daily basis? Also, your one example of one Jew and his fairy tale does not mean the Jews in Israel share his opinion. The fact is Israeli's understand the support for Israel in the U.S. is due mainly to evangelical Christians who have supported them since 1948. So you have posted another lie. The "secret" your Orthodox Jew told you is no secret. It has been common knowledge among Christians for over 1800 years that Jews view Mary as a whore and Jesus as a bastard. Also, I worked for a Jewish family for 23 years and am well aware of their distrust of Catholic/Orthodox Christians.

Muslims created the problem for the Palestinians by attacking Israel. So take your revisionist history somewhere else.

Now, as Amburees pointed out you have posted another lie, which is probably why you have side stepped my questions and until you do I will not discuss the incidents of incest recorded in the Bible, which is a book of history as well as a book of religious instruction, which is something you cannot claim for the Qur'an, which is a poorly written work of fiction.

[Aineo]

FIGSOLIVE, you posted that an Orthodox Jew told you the Sons of Israel believe Ezra is the son of God, but this information is not in the Bible. You also posted that the Qur'an says the Sons of Israel will be returned to Israel for destruction. Both are lies. The Qur'an confirms Allah gave the Promised Land to the Jews and they will return but not to be destroyed. And Orthodox Jews do not believe Ezra is the son of God.

Now if all you are going to do is lie then there is no sense in allowing you a pulpit for your lies.

[Aineo]

Israel in the Quran

2:47 Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations. 2:122 O Children of Israel! call to mind the favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations.

7:137 And We made the children of Israel, who were considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both east and west, - lands whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy, and We leveled to the ground the great works and fine
buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride). 17:104 And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land of promise":
10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.

20:80 O ye Children of Israel! We delivered you from your enemy, and We made a Covenant with you to give you the right side (the blessed side) of Mount Sinai, and We sent down to you Manna (special food) and quails.

26:59 Thus it was, but We made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things (the promised land)

45:16 We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophet hood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favored them above all other nations.

44: 32 And We have chosen them (the Children of Israel) above the 'Alamîn (mankind, and jinns) and our choice was based on a deep knowledge.

32.23] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.
[32.24] And We made of them Guiding Lights and leaders to guide by Our command as they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

[17:104] And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, “ scatter and live all over the world…and when the end of the world is near we will gather you again into the Promised Land”.

Now, FIGSOLIVES your lie has been exposed. It seems the Children of Israel are fighting against Arab Muslims who have rejected Muhammad and the Qur'an in favor of war in the name of hate.

[FIGSOLIVES]

Now if all you are going to do is lie then there is no sense in allowing you a pulpit for your lies.

Thanks a lot man for calling me a liyer...I am not liying...I will change my aproach to you...because this is going no where...I think it is time now to leave this childlesh debate.

First of all let me appologies for the way I was dealing with this subject...but also you have to understand where I am coming from...I have been reading through this forum off and on for the last two years...and most of the times you guys hurt me a lot when I see you posting somthing is not true about islam.

I do have a great respect for you specially your sincerity to change your life, your sincerity to find the truth and your strugle, the hardship you went through to be what you are today...I really do congratulate you for your acheavements.

I was carried out by emotions towards my love of my new faith islam. I can't stand to see or hear or read anything puts it down....meantime you have to understand my great love towards Mohammad (SAAWS) and my GREAT GREAT LOVE towards ALLAH ALL-MIGHTY The Lord of all Prophets from Adam Pease upon him going through Al-Yasa, Ayyub, Dawud, Dhul-Kifl, Harun, Hud, Ibrahim, Idris, Ilyas, Iesa, Iss-haq, Ismaail, Lout, Musa, Nuh, Saleh, Shuaib, Sulaiman, Uzair, Yaqub, Yahya, Yunus, Yusef, Zakariya, Muhammad my the love and peace of Allah ALL-MIGHTY be upon all of them.

So please stop what you are doing towards islam, this call includs all of the people who run this forum. Now let me ask you a very important question.....why you are doing this? I really mean it and I want you to answer me truthfuly...why you guys oppened this section of debate in your forum to put islam down!!?? I really like to know your motive of doing this...
by the way the jews don't love you ....but yes they will take you as friends like Allah told us...but not as friends as you may think NO...the jews will make friendship with the devil if they have to...and yes in the case of Christianity and Jodasim the jews will take as friends when they have to fight the muslims....do you know why...well to answer this question we need to go back in history and see who invented the new Religion of Christianity...please go back and check history very well ...the time when the jews were living in Palestine under the occupation of the Roman Empire, the jews were occupied by the Romans. Do you think the Jews liked the Romans...they were under their occupation....but what was the main trade of the jews....Religion....the Romans were nothing but an enemy to the Jews....but the jews are very smart ploters....look how they deal with God...look what they did to his Prophets...I want you to use logic no emotions here.....we have to analyse those Jows....OK what the Romans do believe in at that time...remember Trinity...Dogma...OK where is the homeland of these Romans.....Eruope?...OK so the Romans children are the western people today...right? so the jews knew about the Romans Trinity, now they ( the Jews) sat down and they gave a lot of thoughts of how can we make our enemies ( the Romans) into our slaves BUT in such a way that they won't notice it. it is not easy it requiers a lot preperations and thinking...so they did invent this new religion which based on Trinity.... it won't be difficult for the Romans to accept...but they need a ture story, a true person....OK who else but Jesus....they don't like him, they were able to kill him so he was fake ( because they believe that if they can kill him then he is not the true messiah, if he is the true messiah then GOD will save him and won't let him be killed) but some one has to come up and start this new sect....it was Shauol...why not he is the perfect person....everything he was going to do was prethought by the jews.....so this well known enemy of Jesus....became the main figure and the one who wrote almost 70% of the new testement....so the Romans took this new relegion without questioning...they were pagons with Trinity so this new Relegion prom Paul (Shaul) sounds better to them....if you believe in Jesus the son of GOD and take him as your savior and that he died on the cross for the sins of humanity you will be blessed, saved and have eternal life in his kingdom...this sounds very nice to the Romans...this is a very easy way to heaven.... this was the bate of the Jews that they used to convert the Romans....BUT this is not the end you Romans you also have to believe in the Old testement...which has in it the slavery of the Romans to the benefit of the Jews....what a smart plan ONLY the jews can do... today weather you like it or not you have to love Israel, you have to love the jews, and you have to help them establesh their kingdom on earth...in fact the zionest Chirstians are more powerful than the jewish one...so you will fight and die for them while they sit back and look at you and laugh and say look what we did to the children of the Romans...they have to show you friendship but it is a fake friendship ....it is based only for their own benefit.... they don't give a hoot about you nor about your god that they made for you...they just look at you and laugh...Allah (SWT) had cursed them and yes they use to be his chosen people but not anymore. Allah revealed them to us....those Verses that you quote from the Quran are true but incomplete, they don't show the whole picture ( it is like if I will quote to you "Hitler was a romantic guy, he liked Bethoven and he was nice and gentle to his wife" they you will ask me to finish the story because this is not the personality of Hitler ....Well, this is excatly what you are doing with your quote about the Jews )....as an honest quoter you have to post what happened next to this chosen poeple as Allah told us in His Quran.....I am not going to say that you did this deliberately..maybe you didn't see the rest of the Verses?!!
I will leave it at that.

Mr/Ms mdibbets

After all, we all have our roots in Abraham, I through spiritual adoption through Christ, you by descent via Ishmael or also spiritual adoption. We are in essence brothers.

Now, may I advice you, to treat us as your brothers, with respect and dignity. Yes we can disagree, yes we can argue, but keep the respect up, for we are both descendants from Abraham through our faith.

somehow I do have a great respect for this person....even though he/she laught at me at the begening of this thread. I am sorry mdibbets, you are right what can I say, My Allah ALL-MIGHTY guids our hearts to the truth, make us better humans, take us out of the darkness and evil sins to the light of His Straight Way, as a humble muslim please let me make a special supplication to GOD...ALLAH ALL-MIGHTY
O Allah (GOD) The Most Merciful, The King of kings, The Lord of all Prophets, All Praises and thanks to YOU alone, The Lord of mankind, jinns and all that exists, The Owner of the Day of Resurrection, You Alone we worship, and YOU Alone we ask for help, Guide our hearts and minds to Your way, The Way of those You bestowed Your Grase upon.
Our Lord; Punish us not if we forget or fall into error, Our Lord; Put not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Pardon us and grant us Forgiveness. Have mercy on us for You Are our Patron and Protector. Please make us among those who remember You All the times and who think deeply about the creation of the heavens and the earth You made and who say Our Lord!! You have not created all things without a purpose, Glory to You! Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners. Give us salvation from the torment of the Fire. Our Lord! Verily, whom You admit to the Fire, indeed, You have disgraced him. Our Lord! Verily, we have heard the call calling to faith: Believe in your Lord, and we have believed. Our Lord! Forgive us our sins and remit from us our evil deeds, and make us die in the state of righteousness along with those who are obedient to You and follow strictly Your Orders. Our Lord! Grant us what You Promised unto us through Your Prophets and disgrace us not on the day of Resurrection, for You never break Your Promiss
Our Lord! We love You more than our souls, wives, children, parents and friends, Your way is our way whatever you say we will do with great love only to You.
You order us to worship you Alone and make no partners with you we obey.
You order us to believe in Your Books, Angels, Prophets, The Day of Judgement, Faith its good and its bad we obey.
You order us to establesh the 5 obligatory prayers every day we obey.
You order us to fast the nineth month of the Lunar year we obey.
You order us to pay the obligatory charity on our wealth to the poor and needy we obey.
You order us to make Pilgrimage to your house which was built by your beloved Prophet Abraham in Mecca ( Becca ) we obey.
You order us to fight those who fights us, to fight them by your name and only for your glory with no fear we obey.
You order us to stop the evil and spread goodess around the world we obey.
You order us to spread your words into the world we obey.
You order us
You order us not to commit adultry we Obey.
You order us to stone the married adultress if we have 4 witnesses, evedence of pregnancy or confesion we obey.
You told us Alcohol is a sin do not drink it or touch it or sit with who drinks it or sell it or help who sells it we Obey.
You told us Homosexuality is a sin don't come near it and kill who does it we obey.
You told us lying is a sin don't lie we obey.
You told us cheating is a sin do not cheat we obey.
You told us stealing is a sin do not steal we obey.
You order us to cut the hand of the thieve who steals to have more wealth we obey.
You order us to lower our gaze, not to look onto women or women onto men in a way that will lead to sin we obey.
You order us (women) to cover our body so stranger men can't see us out of modisty we Obey.
You order us not to back bite on people and made it as if we eat their flesh while they are dead we obey.
You order us to be very kind to our parents and to take good care of them when they are old and to say a word to them that might hurt their feelings we obey.
You order us to be good to our neighbors and not to cause them any disconfort we obey.
You order us to visit the sick, love the orphans,help the needy, lift the harm from the road, play with our kids and help the blind in his way we obey.
You told us usuray is a sin do not deal with it or be part of it even as a witness we obey.
You told us gambeling is a sin do not aproach it or come near it we obey.
You told us that anything that will hurt our body ( Like smoking ) is a sin so stay a way from it we obey.
You told us that we can have relationship with the oppsit sex only through marrige we obey.
You order us to establish your law of destribution of the inherited wealth among us we obey.
You told us that only your law is our law and only to obey you alone and not to obey any law that contradict with your law...since you are the only legistlator we obey.
You order us not to argue with the poeple of the book unless in a good way and a better way ( I seek your forgiveness O Allah ) we obey.
You
These are some of the things of each muslim should be doing if he believes in Allah.....now there are a lot of born in islam when they go to the west ...I have to say the ture picture of them will come to surface....it is very ugly I know...well those are not muslims and like Cat Stevens once said " I thank Allah that I knew islam before I knew muslims" why he said that because majority of born in islam are NOT muslims see islam is perfect and has no race....if you are black or white american or chinees or from the Netherland " There is no diffirent between Arab or non Arab, The Best honered and close to Allah from among you is the highest in his love, fear and obedient to Allah"

[Aburaees]

So please stop what you are doing towards islam, this call includs all of the people who run this forum. Now let me ask you a very important question.....why you are doing this? I really mean it and I want you to answer me truthfuly...why you guys oppened this section of debate in your forum to put islam down!!?? I really like to know your motive of doing this...

You start off by asking people to show more respect towards Islam and then you say something like this:

the jews will make friendship with the devil if they have to

Come on man! How self-centred can you get? If you want to be treated with respect, you have to start showing respect...

However, it is difficult for Muslims to respect Judaism and Christianity when Islam openly and unapologetically criticizes both religions' followers.

[Aineo]

Well, FIGSOLIVES I am amazed at all the misinformation contained in your post. I wonder if your signature is the truth. The Jews did not come up with the Trinity. Men influenced by Greek philosophy as well as Greek paganism decided that in order for Jesus to have performed his miracles, and since Jesus is referred to as our Savior in the NT he had to be God. None of these men were Jews. The Trinity denies Biblical truth and that is the reason Jews reject the Trinity.

Also your attack aimed at the Jews denies reality. It also denies the truth of the Qur'an, a book you reverence. I posted those portions of the Qur'an that tells you that Allah confirms Israel belongs to the Jews, so the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights are in reality occupied Israeli territory according to Islam's holy book.

As to Rome and the western church, if you have followed the news over the last 16 years you should realize that Rome is no friend of the Jews and Israel. In fact the Vatican did not even recognize Israel as a sovereign nation until December 30, 1993. Rome has absolutely no political influence in regard to helping or hindering the Jews.

I have to agree with Ambureeas, your post is filled with nothing more than self-centered whining. These forums were originally set up so Christians and Muslims could talk. However, Muslims routinely attack what we believe and then like you get mad when we expose the factual errors in the Qur'an.

Jesus is not now and never has been a Muslim. He was born a Jew of a Jewish mother in the line of King David who was the second King of Israel. He is the prophesied Jewish Messiah who fulfilled all the Messianic prophesies concerning the suffering Messiah and will fulfill all the Messianic prophesies concerning the Conquering Messiah at God's appointed time. Muhammad, in a futile attempt to make Islam acceptable to both Christians and Jews incorporated aspects of both faiths into his "visions". However, he appealed to Christian myths with his tales concerning Mary, Jesus talking as a babe, creating sparrows, and etc. These tales are pure fantasy. So why shouldn't we expose Islam for what it is?

You really need to study some real histories instead of assuming you know the background of when, why, and how Christianity came into being and how certain dogmas such as the Trinity were developed.

I will never accept Islam as the truth for lots of reasons, not the least of which is the Qur'an contains no verifiable history, no prophecies that are not pulled (and changed) from the Scriptures, is not a religion of peace, does not respect those of other faiths, contains factual errors, and is the major source of atrocities committed against innocent people in our modern world. Muslims are killing Muslims in Iraq, Sudan, and other regions of the world. Muslim suicide bombers are going after innocent people in non-Muslim countries who have never attacked a Muslim.

If you want respectful dialogue then as Amburaees posted give what you expect and demand.

[Joseph]

Instead of voicing your opinion.

If it was just my mere opinion you would have a valid complaint. But it is the teaching of Lord Jesus and his Spirit, of the Apostles and all the Prophets; your contrary notwithstanding.

which BTW is founded in Greek philosophy and paganism

Pathetic desperation, Aineo. You're one step away from converting to Islam, or I should say reverting.(just to make sure Islam's silly one-upmanship receive due ridicule). Will you now charge true Christians with paganism; If so, save your breath and links. I played that game a long time ago; and I was much better at it than Figs.

You see Joseph, the pure word of God delivered to us refutes the Trinity

Horse feathers. How strange for a unitarian to dispute with Muslims, when you too deify text.

When the blind offer to lead, I worry of what may become of me. The pure word of God can only be Creator, the Bible is the created and sanctified speech of God. Even Muslims are wise enough to distinguish between the uncreated and created speech (word) of God. Yes, the words of the Bible are pure when the Spirit fills them with meaning, but absolutely worthless when filled by men.

"For this is eternal life, that they may know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." John 17:3

Amen. Nonetheless, too funny and so sad. Seems the hodge-podge of unitarianism (Modalist, JW, Mohammadist, Arianist, etc) have more in common than they realize: In more ways than just introducing the above verse as evidence for case. Irony that you would quote the same verse I once used in dull-minded attempt to disprove Lord Jesus was God incarnate. Incredulous you hold John 17:3 (used in formulation of triune God) gives weight to unitarianism. Rather than being like Figs, who would have us believe his presumed background makes him knowledgeable, suppose you prove it. Tell me, what would be Trinitarian response, supporting evidence and why the verse was included in formulation of Trinity?

Now, pronounce the following; la ilah illallah wa isa mesihi rasool allah. Maybe you can see how the unitarian interpretation of John 17:3 sounds oddly familiar to me.

Did Jesus lie?

Your method of argument is much like that of Muslims. Should the above been asked of you, would you have dignified the question with an answer(?) I will say, it is impossible for God to lie, but not true of so-called biblical unitarians and Mohammed. Here's what gets me, Aineo: You're well aware of the odious names Jews call holy Mary and Lord Jesus, yet seemingly clueless on the truth they speak (albeit venomously) about Christ Jesus i.e. he indeed claimed Divinity. The Jews, particular the rabbis, hate Jesus for claiming to be The Messiah and God. They did not discover this information from the Gospel but came from thier traditions since the advent of Jesus. An event to which thier forefathers were eyewitness and heard with thier own ears. However, Jews are not blaming whomever you blame for saying (rightfully) Jesus is God. Correctly they identify the first person to have made the claim, Christ Jesus, himself.

If you have nothing more to say, then this will be my last post on JCF

servant of Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
joseph

[Aineo]

I used one verse that Jesus spoke to demonstrate the Trinity is far from Biblical, however if you are so sure you are correct and I am wrong then why not post your proof in the Trinity Debate Forum? The prophets alone defeat the doctrine of the Trinity. The facts are that Justin Martyr was the first man to opine that Jesus is God. Clement and Origin of Alexandria influenced by Neo-Platonism as well as Greek pagan religious philosophy refined the duality of God into the Trinity. This Joseph is historical fact, not the meanderings of those who believe God and reject the philosophical wool gathering of men.

Jesus corrected the Pharisees when they accused him of being God by referring to himself as the Son of God. Now you can search the NT until you go blind and you will not find a single teaching that tells us that Jesus is God. What you actually read is that Jesus was and is a man who God highly exalted as Prince and Savior. Modalism, JW's, and Arianism are just a wrong as Trinitarians and your futile attempt to equate Biblical Unitarianism with those groups only demonstrates your ignorance not only of the Bible but of what those groups believe.

Since rejecting the Trinity I have yet to find a Trinitarian who can defeat God's truth. Since all of them like you resort to personal attacks and then leave. All you have shown is that you cannot defend a tradition of men with God's pure truth. Peter and Paul did not teach a triune god. Now if you can show me where I am wrong without redefining words, taking Scripture out of context, and totally ignoring the Hebraic roots of Christianity then by all means do so in the Trinity Debate Forum.

[Joseph]

Since all of them like you resort to personal attacks and then leave. All you have shown is that you cannot defend a tradition of men with God's pure truth. Peter and Paul did not teach a triune god. Now if you can show me where I am wrong without redefining words, taking Scripture out of context, and totally ignoring the Hebraic roots of Christianity then by all means do so in the Trinity Debate Forum.

You must have missed my statement to forum readers. "...just so everyone may understand, neither I am here to teach Christianity" I gave external evidence because the internal evidence is rejected. Remarkable how Israel even in her rebellion stands in the way of false teachers.

If "all of them" were like myself, unwittingly participating on forum maintained by so-called biblical unitarians, then understandable why they call you names and leave. I would have never participated in Q&B debate had I known background of the moderators. For those of us who proclaim Christ Jesus true God, it is silly to defend trustworthiness of the Bible along side of anyone who denies, God *alone* is Savior. Muslims accept this essential truth without question, in reality, nearer to the kingdom of God then you are. I don't think it can get anymore asinine than to debate Quran and Bible and on same site debate what the Bible says. Figs is probably having a good laugh, rightfully so.

I used one verse that Jesus spoke to demonstrate the Trinity is far from Biblical.

You demonstrated nothing, read my reply again.

...however if you are so sure you are correct and I am wrong then why not post your proof in the Trinity Debate Forum?

Really Aineo, yet another debate on Trinity. Let's try this: I will assume you know my argument and you assume I know yours, and save the rehash. I read parts of Trinity Debate Forum; poisoning the well in the sticky, absurd take on understanding and interpretation, the ever handy delete button. It is so Islamic. Good thing for yourself and like fellows Apple Pie is banned, because in his sleep he could undo the high priests of so-called biblical unitarianism. Maybe it has not dawned on you but Apple Pie is a gifted logician, as his Muslim opponents have found. Not saying Apple Pie is correct by virtue of being a logician, rather, no person involved on this forum would be a match for him.

The prophets alone defeat the doctrine of the Trinity. The facts are that Justin Martyr was the first man to opine that Jesus is God. Clement and Origin of Alexandria influenced by Neo-Platonism as well as Greek pagan religious philosophy refined the duality of God into the Trinity. This Joseph is historical fact, not the meanderings of those who believe God and reject the philosophical wool gathering of men.

So you are binitarian and not unitarian.

Only in your head and the dozen or so books in your library on biblical unitarianism, do the prophets speak against Lord Jesus true God. Before I continue let me dispel a notion for the benefit of readers. Christianity is not about; oneness, twoness or threeness, doctrine or creeds; religion or rituals, dotted i's and crossed t's, nor is Christian faith founded on arguments. Most certainly no true Christian is moved to proclaim Jesus is God because of Justin Martyr or the trinity doctrine. It was, is and will always be about our Only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Amen.

It's also biblical fact Paul quoted pagan poets. However to be factual, if such truly concerns you, the first to "opine" Christ Jesus is God (other than Jesus himself) can be found in the Bible. As for post-Apostolic age you're off by 50 years, so Justin Martyr being the first is not fact. Not intending to dismiss worthwhileness of the raised issue, just your site being place for rebuttal.

Jesus corrected the Pharisees when they accused him of being God by referring to himself as the Son of God. Now you can search the NT until you go blind and you will not find a single teaching that tells us that Jesus is God. What you actually read is that Jesus was and is a man who God highly exalted as Prince and Savior. Modalism, JW's, and Arianism are just a wrong as Trinitarians and your futile attempt to equate Biblical Unitarianism with those groups only demonstrates your ignorance not only of the Bible but of what those groups believe.

Some correction. Just the type of guy a person would not want for defense attorney; appeals case and still the death sentence stands. Disagree with your interpretation, and it is understood you would disagree with mine. What I said, the hodge-podge of unitarianism have more in common than they realize. Modalism aside, which of the mentioned have commonality of the created Savior? Concern yourself less with my ignorance of the Bible and more with the essential truth.

Now you can search the NT until you go blind and you will not find a single teaching that tells us that Jesus is God.

None that you will accept, but what I read disagrees with your claim. That is, if I have your permission on actual reading

What you actually read is...

Lord help me.

Since rejecting the Trinity I have yet to find a Trinitarian who can defeat God's truth.

You have bizarre way with words, along with an over-developed sense of righteousness. You left a lifestyle for what you believe is God's truth. I left a religion where the penalty for apostasy is all too real, for what I believe is God's truth. You went your distance to have what you believe is the truth and I went mine. Get off your high horse. Nonetheless, I can state with all certainty, there are no trinitarians who believe they can defeat God.

In fairness, I will return in few days to read your response; however, Goodbye.

servant of Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the One and Only Almighty God.
joseph

[Aburaees]

If "all of them" were like myself, unwittingly participating on forum maintained by so-called biblical unitarians, then understandable why they call you names and leave.

Muslims come here sometimes trying to disprove the Trinity using Biblical Scripture... So when they run into a Christian who doesn't believe in the Trinity doctrine, they no longer have a sensible argument to make.

The difficulty I suppose, is in figuring out on what grounds a Unitarian rejects Islam and vice-versa. In most Muslim-Christian debates, the deity of Jesus seems to be the major sticking point.

.

[Aineo]

Joseph, my library of books that led me to reject the Trinity is Genesis through Revelation. In plain language I have taken God at His word and rejected as authoritative the words of men who have decided that "echad" does not mean "one" and all the other philosophical rhetoric required to prove Peter did not mean what he said in Acts 2 and 5, and what Paul wrote in his epistles.

I am not going to rehash on this thread what has been posted on other threads, specifically the threads in the Trinity Debate Forum. However, why appeal to what the Pharisees said when the Pharisees rejected their own Messiah? Jesus never claimed to be God; Peter, John, James, and Paul did not write that Jesus is God. Peter, John, and Paul wrote that Jesus is a man who was highly exalted to God's right hand.

Justin Martyr is considered the first Christian apologist, now if you have information that refutes this I would be interested in reading it. And no I do not accept Martyr's binitarianism. The Bible is clear to those with eyes to see and ears to hear that God is one not three.

[FIGSOLIVES]

Aineo*

The Bible is clear to those with eyes to see and ears to hear that God is one not three.

This is a very nice statement, I like it very much specially when it comes from a Christian!!.. I really gongratulate you for such advancement, but you still have way much to go on your hardworking studies....I still don't understand why you hate islam and view it as your enemy??!!!...well from the way you deal and talk about islam and Quran... your hateret is very clear and I wonder why?.... Once I had a partnership relation with an american man...eventhough, I helped many americans to convert into islam ( my wife also is an american convert to islam), but this man whos name was David was very clear and honest with me, he agreed with islam in everything and one day he told me look Figsolives: " I believe in every word and teaching in islam and Quran, but the truth is I can't do it, it is too much for me, I can't live a life like yours, I want to enjoy my life"...his words made me understand more why those born in islam but not muslims in reality... well, they want to enjoy their lives, as if islam takes the joy of life!!!... as far for me, the happyness and joy that my heart is full of it, and only by practicing islam, well, there is no words to discribe it better than a famous scholar ( ibin Taymiyeh) who was in prison at the time when he said his famous words " if the kings could see the Paradise that exsits in our hearts, surely they will rage a war against us to get it"!!...and my own words will be " those who didn't live the life of darkness can't appretiate the life of light (NUR), it is easier for me to through myself in fire than to reject and go out of islam

Aburaees*

Muslims come here sometimes trying to disprove the Trinity using Biblical Scripture... So when they run into a Christian who doesn't believe in the Trinity doctrine, they no longer have a sensible argument to make.

You got that wrong as far it goes for me... this is only the beginning, and remember that I am not only a muslim, but also I am an ex Arab Christian... well, since this is a Quran and Bible debate as you calim, and you claim that Mohammad (SAAWS) copied the Bible!!!! to write his book!!!! I will chose a topic, then I will list what the Bible has to say about it and on the other hand what Quran has to say about it....and I will let the reader to chose for himself/herself what he/she thinks and see on what side the TRUTH is....in this comparative listing which will have no outside opinion (only the words of the two books),then the TRUTH will stand out for itself and then we shall see weather it was coppied or CORRECTED the lies and treason to God of the used to be God chosen people Isralites " The Jews"...but to do so I will open a new thread:
WHAT THE QURAN AND BIBLE SAY ABOUT...

Aineo*

Israel in the Quran

Quote:
2:47 Children of Israel! call to mind the favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations. 2:122 O Children of Israel! call to mind the favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations.

7:137 And We made the children of Israel, who were considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both east and west, - lands whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy, and We leveled to the ground the great works and fine
buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride). 17:104 And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land of promise":
10:93 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them.

20:80 O ye Children of Israel! We delivered you from your enemy, and We made a Covenant with you to give you the right side (the blessed side) of Mount Sinai, and We sent down to you Manna (special food) and quails.

26:59 Thus it was, but We made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things (the promised land)

45:16 We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophet hood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favored them above all other nations.

44: 32 And We have chosen them (the Children of Israel) above the 'Alamîn (mankind, and jinns) and our choice was based on a deep knowledge.

32.23] And certainly We gave the Book to Moses, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.
[32.24] And We made of them Guiding Lights and leaders to guide by Our command as they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

[17:104] And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, “ scatter and live all over the world…and when the end of the world is near we will gather you again into the Promised Land”.
Now, FIGSOLIVES your lie has been exposed. It seems the Children of Israel are fighting against Arab Muslims who have rejected Muhammad and the Qur'an in favor of war in the name of hate.

Me*

as an honest quoter you have to post what happened next to this chosen poeple as Allah told us in His Quran.....I am not going to say that you did this deliberately..maybe you didn't see the rest of the Verses?!!

...
Moreover, going over your quotation again I see that you are misquoting the Quran!!!!???? I don't know it seems that there are some lines in your "quote" that you just took it out !!! once again I wonder why?!!! as you see in 10:93 please go and read it again
10:93*......and they differed not until the knowledge came to them. Verily, Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in that in which they used to differ.
Let us go back to 2:47....you have to read from 2:40
2:40* O children of Israel! Remember My Favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill My Covenant so that I fulfill your covenant, and fear none but Me.
2:41* And believe in what I have sent down (this Quran), confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to disbelieve therein, and buy not with My Verses ( the Torah) a small price ( getting a small gain by selling My Verses), and fear Me and Me alone.
2:42* And mix not truth with falsehood, and do not conceal the truth while you know ( the truth )
2:43* And perform Salat ( the obligatory Prayer ) and give Zakat ( the obligatory Charity ) and make Rukuu ( to bow down to Allah) along with those who bow down to Allah
2:44 You order the people to righteousness and you forget yourselves, while you recite the Book! Have you then no sense?
2:45 And seek help in patience and performing the Prayers, and truly it is extremely heavy and hard exepct for those who are Khashieen (obey Allah with full submission)
2:46 Those who are certain that they are going to meet their Lord, and that unto Him they are going to return.
2:47 O children of Israel! REMEMBER My Favour which I bestowed upon you and that I preferred you to the Alamin ( mankind and jinns) ( in the past )
then please keep reading untill 2:73 where Allah is telling us the story of children of Israel with Prophet Moses......then
2:74 Then after that, your hearts were hardened and became as stones or even worse in hardness. And indeed, there are stones out of which rivers gush forth, and indeed, there are of them(stones) which split asunder so that water flows from them, and indeed, there are of them(stones) which fall down for fear of Allah. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
.....keep on reading untill
2:79* Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "THis is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.....Keep on reading.....
2:88 And they say (the Jews) " Our hearts are wrapped ( do not hear or understand Allah's Word)" Nay, Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is that which they believe.
Keep on reading .....untill 2:122
2:122* O children of Isreal! Remember My Favour which I bestowed upon you and that I prefered you to the Alamin (mankind and jinns) ( in the past)

20:80 Please read 20:81

26:59 ......this verse is not talking about the Promised land here....go back to and start reading from 26:52 until 67 ....man from where do you get the Promised land in these verses....at the end of verse 67 God says that " Verily! In this is indeed a sign ( or a proof ), yet most of them ( Isralites) ARE NOT BELIEVERS.

45:16 ... please read also 17...

44:32..." And we chose them ( the children of israel) above the Alamin ( mankind and jinns) [during the time of Musa (Moses) ] with knowledge.....go back to 17....read until 33

32:23....And indeed We gave Musa(Moses) the book. So be not you in doubt of meeting him(Moses). And We made it a guide to the children of Israel*23* And we made from among them leaders, giving guidance under our command, when they were patient and used to believe with certtainty in our Ayat (Proofs,verses,sings, revelations)...read 25

17:104 ...Man where do you get this Promised Land from...you are not honest in your translation!!!....there is no promised land to the jews in Quran....Allah will gather them, but he didn't say where...now in our time we see that they are gathered in Palestine...Prophet Mohammad told us in one of his hadeeth...
" the hour won't come until you ( Muslims ) fight the Jews, You are on the east side of the river and they are on the west side of the river" !!!!! accually this hadeeth is one of Prophet Mohammad's miracles....for he didn't mentioned what river he is talking about...and there was no certain place (state) of jews at that time, they were scatered all over ....and there was not one muslim man on the east side of Jordan river at the time he told this hadeeth!!!....BUT let us read on this from Surah 17 Al-Israa ( The Journey by Night) for it is very important ...it tells us what is going to happen to the children of Israel....
17:2* And we gave Musa(Moses) the Book and made it a guidance for the children of Israel (saying): " Take not other than Me as (your) Wakil(Protector, Lord, Disposer of your affairs,.)
17:3* "O offspring of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Nuh (Noah)! Verily, he was a greatful slave."
17:4 And We Decreed for the children of Israel in the Book, that indeed you would do mischief on the earth twice and you will become tyrants and extremely arrogant!
17:5* So, when the promise came for the first of the two, We sent against you slaves of Ours given to terrible warfare. They entered the very innermost parts of your homes. And it was a promise (completely) fulfilled.
17:6* Then We gave you once again, a return of victory over them. And We heleped you with wealth and children and made you more numerous in manpower.
17:7* If you do good, you do good for your ownselves, and if you do evil ( you do it ) against yourselves. " Then, when the second promise will come to pass, ( We permitted ( surely going to happen) your enemies) to make your faces sorrowful and to enter the mosque (of Jerusalem) as they had entered it before, and to destroy with utter destruction all that fell in their hands.
then let us go to..104
7:104* And We said to the children of Israel after him (Pharaoh): "Dwell in the land, then when the second promise comes near. We shall bring you altogether as mixed crowd ( gathered out of various nations)....once again Aineo there is no mentioning of the promise land here...and only in our time, now we understand how and where the jews will be gathered...before the existing of Israel no muslim scholar new where and how the jews will be gathered....all of this came to our knowledge after England gave Palestine to the jews in the 20th century.

[Aineo]

As I posted before, just because you were born into a professed Christian family does not make you a Christian. Also, I got those quotes from the Qur'an from an Arab Muslim site that supports the end of Muslim and Arab atrocities committed against the Jews and Israel. The Bible prophesied that Yaweh would gather His chosen people from the nations with the help of gentiles. This began to happen when the UN partioned Palestine from the British Mandate in 1948 and will continue until the Lord Jesus returns to rule over the Kingdom of God. At this time the Jews will rule the world with Jesus as their King and the saints of God as his commanders. As to your supposed miracle concerning a river, that information is found in Exodus. So you have posted another lie.

I see you are still avoiding my questions. The Jews do not now and never have believed or taught that Ezra is the son of God and no Christian group believes Mary is a God. There are factual errors in the Qur'an, which also contains information pulled from the Evangelium of James, the Gospel of Thomas, and other apocryphal Christian literature, that is nothing more than fantasy and myth. Also you have not given any thing close to an adequate explanation of the fact Muslims are allowed to lie. Yaweh will judge all liars who will not have an inheritance in His Kingdom.

Islam promotes even commands deception, killing unbelievers who reject Islam, extortion, and is nothing more than a perversion of the Scriptures that came before Muhammad had his visions (if he really had visions).

Why should I accept as valid a religion that routinely kills innocent men, women, and children?

[Aineo]

We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116). But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind and nothing but lies and deceits.
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

Faith Freedom International is a grassroots movement of ex-Muslims. Its goals are to (a) unmask Islam and show that it is an imperialistic ideology akin to Nazism but disguised as religion and (b) to help Muslims leave it, end this culture of hate caused by their "us" vs. "them" ethos and embrace the human race in amity. We strive for the unity of Mankind through the elimination of Islam, the most insidious doctrine of hate.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/

Muslims are hated all over the world by Muslims. They are divided in 73 sects, each calling the other kafir. ... Apostate websites are popping every day. Ali Sina of faithfreedom.org has challenged all muslims of the world to disprove to him that islam is not a religion but a cult. Many have debated with him and lost (read all the debates including the one with Ayatullah Montazeri).
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/28783

Six million African Muslims leave Islam per year

This translation� of a televised conversation reveals a rare glimpse into the outlook of Muslim scholars who are concerned about Christianity's growth. The invited guest is Sheikh Ahmad Al Katani; the president of The Companions Lighthouse for the Science of Islamic Law in Libya, which is an institution specializing in graduating imams and Islamic preachers. http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/200 ... ms_le.html

[FIGSOLIVES]

Post edited out as being non-responsive to this thread.

[Aineo]

I guess your only agenda is to denigrate what you do not understand, lie, avoid what the Qur'an has to say, and even deny what the Qur'an has to say.

If you are not going to respond to questions put to you then there is no sense in continuing to give you a pulpit to post your lies. Now, either give an adequate answer to the questions put to you or your posts will be edited out.

To Muslims and Arabs across the globe:

Reject hate, embrace love. Bring out the best in Islam by showing your compassion, gratitude and forgiveness. Make the holy land truly holy by giving Israel and the Jewish people the respect they deserve in their tiny little country. This is not a crisis over land. It is a crisis of the soul; a crisis in our faith, judgement and self confidence. Israel should not be regarded as an enemy, but as a blessing to our neighborhood. We need not fear peace, but embrace it.
http://www.arabsforisrael.com/

You see FIGSOLIVES, Muhammad was nothing more than a plagiarizing opportunist who gave himself permission to do what he pleased, when he pleased, and has deceived those who want to be deceived.

Israel a Prophecy in the Quran

On the restoration of Israel, the Quran says; "And after him (Moses), we said to the children of Israel, dwell Ye in the promised land, and when the time of the promise of the latter days comes, we shall bring you out of various peoples". In his book, The Quran a Modern Understanding, Muslim scholar Mustafa Mahmud explains a Quranic verse concerning Israel; "And We gave (clear) warning to the children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the land and be elated with mighty arrogance (And twice would they be punished)!" (Al-Isra[17]:4).

According to Mr. Mahmud, this verse is a prophecy in the Quran, he comments; "And here we see today the Jews reaching might and power and doing iniquity in the land for the second time". What Mr. Mahmud ignores is a very important historical and Biblical fact. Israel had two well-known historical events of iniquity, both are well recorded in history, and on both occasions God made them pay for their actions by allowing the destruction of Israel.

The first was the Babylonian destruction (Nebuchadnezzar 586 B.C.), when the Israelites were carried off into captivity in Babylon. This punishment was given as a result of their rebelling against God and disobeying his commandments. This was the first destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

The second was the Roman destruction (Titus A.D. 70), when once again the Temple was destroyed due to the Jews disobedience. As a result of this, the Jews were dispersed throughout the world (The Diaspora). This was the second destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Twice disobeyed, and twice destroyed. This is clearly not a prophecy but repeating what the Bible and history already told us! The Muslim scholar Abdullah Yusuf Ali interprets the Quran for these verses correctly agreeing with the facts documented in history, and in total agreement with the truth, (see page 674, The Meaning of The Holy Quran).
http://www.answering-islam.org/Walid/12israel_quran.htm

Now wonder Muslims are leaving Islam in droves.

[FIGSOLIVES]

THIS IS NOT A QURAN AND BIBLE DEBATE !??

WELL i AM SORRY BUT I HAVE BEEN READING IN THIS FORUM WITHOUT WRITTING FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS OR SO, AND TO BE HONEST WITH YOU I DON'T SEE IT AS A DEBATE, IT IS MORE LIKE SOMEONE WANTS TO FORCE YOU WITH HIS/HER IDEAS BY USING LIES AND OUT OF CONTECT MATERIALS AND EVEN TWISTED MENTALITIES, THIS INCLUDE ALL OF THE CHRISTIANS TOP NAMES IN THIS FORUM ( APPLE PIE, AIENO, SCORPION, ABU RAYESH, .......) YOU GUYS ARE SOMETHING....YOU CALL THIS A DEBATE.....IT IS SO FUNNY WHEN SOME MUSLIM BRINGS YOU SOME SIMPLE PROVES ABOUT THE DIVINITY OF THE QURAN....BUT YOUR METHOD IS VERY CLEAR....SO I WOULD LIKE TO TELL MY MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS.....DON'T WEAST YOUR TIME HERE WITH THESE GUYS....DON'T YOU SEE IT IS ONLY A TRAP FOR YOU....

JUST ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO ADD....YOU TOOK OUT MY LAST POST BECAUSE I WAS EXPOSING YOUR LIES AND YOUR IGNORANCE OF BOTH THE BIBLE AND THE QURAN....AND YOU CAN'T INTER WITH MY CHALLENGES, BECAUSE I WILL CRUSH YOU WITH MY KNOWLEGE...WE WERE ONLY SCRACHING THE SURFACE....AND YOU HAVE NOTICED THAT SO YOU DECIED TO ELEMINATE ME....OFF CORSE GUYS LIKE ME HAVE NO ROOM IN THIS SO CALLED DEBATE WHICH WAS DESIGENED ONLY TO PUT ISLAM DOWN.....GO AHEAD AND DELETE THIS THREAD BECAUSE I AM NOT GOING TO WASTE MY TIME WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU....BUT I WOULD LIKE TO TELL YOU ONE LAST THING AINEO, ON DAY OF JUDGEMENT I WILL LOOK FOR YOU AND WE SHALL SEE WHO WILL BE ON THE SIDE OF THE TRUTH.....SEE YOU THERE.

[Aineo]

I edited out your last post because you have steadfastly refused to answer questions and have posted one lie after another. If you are really interested in discussing Islam, the Qur'an, and Muhammad then by all means do so. However, you like most Muslims who come here do so only to attack, lie, slander, and promote hate.

You claim to be an ex-Christian, but your ignorance of Biblical prophecy and the fact that instead of studying the Bible you went to a Muslim demonstrates you were never really a Christian. No one is born a Christian, since in order to be transferred to the Kingdom of God one must first believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord. They must also live by God's New Covenant and not simply give lip service to what they think the New Covenant is. There are a plethora of professed Christians who confess with their mouths, but do not believe in their hearts that Jesus Christ is Lord or live God's New Covenant.

Yaweh foretold the destruction of those nations that hate His chosen people and try to occupy His chosen land. The time is near when Yaweh will fulfill the covenant He made with Abraham (actually if you really knew the Bible you would understand that God made that covenant with Himself, and God does not violate His covenants). In the near future all the territory from the Euphrates to the River of Egypt will be returned to the Jews, not by men but by Yaweh.

[FIGSOLIVES]

Mr. Aineo you are not telling the truth!, I did answer your questions...but you took my last post because you don't want to debate with someone who has more knowlege in the bible than yourself...you are the one who is attacKing not me, you think that you are so knowlegable, but I want to prove to my fellow muslims that this debate room is fake...if you really want to show us otherwise then prove that this is a real free debate room about the Bible and Quran, put back my last post and I have a big list for you to dabate about the Bible and I will debate with you the Quran.....in last post I challenged you to show me where in the Quran it says to kill innocet men, women and children...and I told you in return I WILL SHOW YOU WHERE IN THE BIBEL IS SAYS TO KILL ALL MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN.....I POSTED THE STORY OF PROPHET MOSES AND HIS BROTHER PROPHET AARON AND THE SAMIRI WHO MADE THE CALF FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL AND TOLD THEM "THIS IS YOUR GOD AND THE GOD OF MOSES" THE STORY FOUND IN THE QURAN, THEN I ASKED YOU TO LIST FOR ME THE SAME STORY FROM THE BIBLE...I CAN LIST THE STORY FROM THE BIBLE BUT I WANT YOU TO DO IT BECAUSE THIS IS A QURAN AND BIBLE DEBATE...IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THE STORY IS TELL ME THEN I WILL LIST IT FOR YOU.....YOU CLAIM THAT QURAN IS PULLED OUT FROM THE BIBLE " COPIED " I AM SHOWING YOU AND PROVING TO YOU IT IS NOT THE CASE....QURAN CORRECTS THE MISTAKES FOUND IN THE BIBLE, THERE IS A BIG HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COPIED AND TO CORRECT...THIS WAS ONLY THE BEGENNING I WILL LIST FOR YOU A LOT OF CORRECTIONS AND WE WILL COMPEARE THEM AND SEE WHICH VERSION MAKE MORE SENSE AND HAS A BETTER MORAL VALEUS AND SHOWS MORE RESPECT TO GOD AND GOD'S PROPHETS, WE WILL SEE THE CASE OF SOME OF YOU GUYS CLAIM THAT QURAN IS FROM SATAN HIMSELF, THEN HOW COME SATAN WILL CURSE HIMSELF AND DOOMED HIS FOLLOWERS, GIVES A GREAT RESPECT TO GOD HIMSELF AND TO GOD'S PROPHETS, BUT IN THE BIBLE THERE IS NO RESPECT FOR GOD NORE FOR HIS PROPHETS ALL OF THESE CLAIMS WILL BE BACKED UP WITH VERSES FROM THE QURAN AND THE BIBLE AND YOU CAN PROVE ME WRONG BY QUOTING FROM ONLY THESE TWO BOOKS, DON'T BRING TO ME SOME SO CALLED MUSLIMS SITES AND SHOW ME WHAT THEY ARE SAYING, MOST OF THESE SITES BY THE WAY ARE EX SHIEIS, I DON'T BLAME THEM AT ALL FOR LEAVING OR EXITING THEIR ISLAM BECAUSE FOR THEM TO BE NOTHING IS BETTER THAN TO BE A SHIEI. SHIEIS ARE NOT MUSLIMS. THIS WIERED SECT WHICH WAS FOUNDED BY A JEWISH RABBI BY THE NAME OF ABDULLAH BIN SABAA, HE INTERED ISLAM ONLY SO HE COULD BREAK IT ( HE IS EXCATLY LIKE YOUR SHAUL), MOST OF HIS FOLLOWERS ARE FOUND IN IRAN ( WHICH IS NOT A MUSLIM STATE AS THEY CLAIM ) THE NATION OF ISLAM FOUNDED BY ALIJA MOHAMMAD IN THE US BY THE BLACKS WITH ALL THEIR KUFUR THEY ARE BETTER THAN THE SHIEI IRANIANS, THEY ARE ALSO FOUND IN SOUTH LEBANON ( HIZBULLAH ) AND IN SOUTH IRAQ AND SOME SMALL POCKETS ALL OVER THE ISLAMIC COUNTRIES, THEY ARE MINORITY AND WE DON'T COUNT THEM OF THE MOSLEMS.....WE CALL THEM THE JEWS OF MUSLIMS, TO THEM LIEING IS A GOOD DEAD!!! WHEN THEY DEAL WITH US ( ALL OF NON SHIEI MUSLIMS ) THEY HAVE A LOT OF BAD QUALATIES AND WEIRED BELEIVES, THIS IS NOT THE TIME OR SUBJECT TO TALK ABOUT NOW, SO ONLY QUOTE FOR ME WHAT THE QURAN AND THE BIBLE SAY AND I WILL DO THE SAME, AND LET THE READERS DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES.
BUT IT LOOKS LIKE YOU WANT TO MAKE THE DECISION FOR READERS BY DELETING ANYTHING YOU DON'T LIKE!!!! OR LET SAY YOU CHIKEN OUT WITH DEBATING WITH ME SO YOU TOOK MY POST OUT AND SAID "Post edited out as being non-responsive to this thread."!!!!!! VERY FUNNY ,THIS IS MY THREAD MAN I STARTED IT, BESIDES, ISN'T AMERICA THE LAND OF FREE SPEACH AND YOU ARE AMERICAN, THEN PUT MY LAST POST BACK. AND RESPOND TO MY CHALLEGES LIKE I AM RESPONDING TO YOURS.
IN MY LAST POST I ALSO PUT DOWN THE STORY OF ADAM, EVE AND SATAN AND SHOWED YOU THAT THERE IS NO "THE ORIGINAL SIN" IN THE QURAN, ALL PEOPLE ARE BORN INNOCENTS BUT IN ORDER FOR US TO GO BACK TO OUR HOMELAND WERE WE ALL BELONE (PARADISE) WE HAVE TO PASS THIS TEST OF LIFE ON EARTH BY BEING, LIVING GOOD AND OBEYING GOD'S RULES AND COMMANDS AND PAY THE PRICE OF PARADICE BY LIVING OF SUCH RIGHTEOUS LIFE, THERE IS ONE ONE WHO DIED FOR OUR SINS IN QURAN, JESES CAN ONLY HELP HIMSELF AND SO MOHAMMAD, THEY CAN'T DO NOTHING TO SAVE US...THEY ONLY THING THEY CAN DO AND THEY DID WAS DELEVERING TO US THE WORDS AND COMMANDS OF THEIR LORD ( THEY WERE ONLY MESSENGERS) THEY ARE BOTH SON OF ADAM AND ALL THE MERICALS THEY BROUGHT IT WAS FROM THEIR LORD ONLY TO BACK THEM UP THAT THEY ARE TRUE PROPHETS, THEN IT IS OUR DUTY TO FOLLOW WHAT THEY HAD GIVE US FROM THEIR LORD. IF WE FOLLOW THEM AND OBEY OUR LORD THROUGH THEIR EXAMPLE AS PERFECT HUMANS THEN WE SHOULD BE ALOWED TO GO BACK TO OUR HOMELAND WERE WE BELONG AND LIVE IN IT FOR ETERNITY WITH AN ETERNAL LIFE WHERE GOD WILL GIVE AN ETERNAL BODY ( WHEN WE EAT THEN OUR FOOD WILL TURN INTO PERFUME AND COMES OUT FROM OUR SKIN LIKE THE SWET ....THEY WILL BE NO BATHROOMS ) AND THE AGE OF MEN IN PARADISE WILL BE 33 THE SAME AGE OF JESUS WE GOD RAISED HIM UP TO HEAVEN. BUT, IF WE REFUSE THEN OUR FAIT WILL BE ALONG WITH SATAN IN HELL FOREVER.
CAN YOU LIST FOR ME THE STORY OF ADAM,EVE AND SATAN FOUND IN THE BIBLE SO WE CAN ALL READ IT....SO WE WILL HAVE A REAL QURAN AND BIBLE DEBATE.

[Aineo]

I will repeat you have not answered the questions put to you.

Now, Yaweh commanded that all the Canaanites be eliminated, and God judged the generation of the Jews who worshiped the calf. However, Yaweh never told the Jews (and Jesus never told Christians) to use either Judaism or Christianity to conquer and control the world killing unbelievers where you find them as is found in Sura 9. Now, before you accuse me of taking that one Sura out of context, consider that you have taken Yaweh's orders out of context.

Catholicism teaches original sin, therefore if you want to debate Catholic doctrine go to a Catholic site. If you want to debate the Trinity go to a site that promotes the Trinity. If you want to debate traditions then go to sites that defend traditions, but if your are going to use sectarian dogma in your posts that I do not subscribe to don't waste your time or our server space.

Now, you have one more opportunity to answer the factual errors in the Qur'an before I lock this thread.

No Christian group believes that Mary is a god, the Jews have not now or ever have taught that Ezra is the Son of God, and as of yet you have not adequately answered the Qur'an's self contradiction concerning lying. Appealing to one Jew (and based on your propensity to lie why should I believe that Jew even exists) concerning Ezra is ludicrous and self serving since your information cannot be verified.

No other thing. I edited to your last post to normal type. If you post bolded large type again your post will be deleted. Also, if you cannot find what you want to attack in the Bible, don't expect me to post Bible verses for you. After all you are the one who attacked me for quoting from Qur'anic verses I found on a site you disagree with.

[Aineo]

Also, in your opening post you posted you have been reading these forums for 2 years. I find that difficult to believe since if what you posted were true then you would understand that everything you are bringing up has been covered many times in the past.

For instance:
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?p=70357
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?p=70586
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?p=70349
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?p=70356

Sura 9 has been avoided by Muslims on every thread it has been referenced. Sura 6 is totally ignored by Muslims who assert the Bible has been corrupted and cannot seem to be able to rationalize why Allah told Muhammad the Bible is true and cannot be changed.

Now, either respond to my questions or refute what has already been posted on multiple threads over the last couple of years you claim you have been visiting these forums.

[FIGSOLIVES]

OK,
First:
I did answer the trinity you mentioned about Mary is one of the three listed in Quran. I told you NO she is not mentioned to be one of the trinity, I even put for you the verse where it says the trinity, Allah says:
5:73* Surely, disbelievers are those who said: " Allah is the thired of the three(inTrinity)." But there is no God but One God(Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.

then you quoted for me the verse where Allah will ask Jesus in the Day of Judgement about did he told the people: " Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?" in 5:116, I told you this one here has nothing to do with verse I quoted above. to give you more proof....please read also

5:72* Surely, disbelievers are those who said:" Allah is the Messiah (Jesus) , son of Mary." But the Messiah (Jesus) siad: " O children of israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the fire will be his abode. And for the Zalimun ( polythersts and wrong-doers) there are no helpers.

In this verse I hope that you can see and understand that Jesus her is taken as Allah himself. But, the Quran never put Mary in this state, she is mentioned as god ( idol ) like I told you before, and surely Christians they take Jesus as God Almighty and he is in the Trinity, but Allah didn't tell us who are the three in the trinity only he mentioned Jesus as one and as God himself. I hope that this is clear for you.

Second:
As far as Ezra, YES Allah told us that the jews said: " Ezra is the son of Allah" I have been looking and searching in this one since you had posted it, besides what my friend told me about the ex Orthadox Jew. I founf an interesting story in a book by a very well known historian islamic scholar ( Ibin Katheer) he mentioned that the story of the man who Allah has mentioned him in: 2:259 was Ezra, he was passing by a town which had been tumbled over its roofs. He said: "Oh! How will Allah ever bring it to life after its death?" he was questioning the great ability of Allah out of faith not out of disbeleive, he was with his donkey and he was preparing some food for himself while he stoped for rest. So Allah caused him to die for 100 years, then raised him up (agian) Allah send to him an angel to ask him: "How long did you remain(dead)". Ezra said:" A day or a part of a day". He said: " Nay, you have remained (dead) for 100 years, look at you food and your drink, they show no change; and look at your donkey! (its bones were scatered around him) And thus We made you a sign for the people. Look at the boons, how We bring them toghether and clothe them with flesh". When this was clearly shown to him, he said, " I know (now) that Allah is Able to do all things." then in the story where ibin Katheer quoting from the israelites ( where Prophet Mohammad gave us permission to quote from them when it talks about people and places which has nothing to do of worship and weather it is false or not will have no effect or value on religion) Ezra went to his town, all the people that he knew were dead but 1 or 2 of his sons and an old woman who use to be his servant, she was blind and she was arround 120, he came to her and asked her about Ezra and she start to cray and said he left us 100 years ago and never came back, he told her his story then she told him to ask Allah to give her sight so she would see him and recognize him , he did then Allah gave her sight and she saw him the same age he left 100 year ago, she said by Allah you are Ezra, she went to the people and told his sons who were older than their father in looks, then after he died people start to veiw him as the son of God for that reason. now weather the story is true or fake, it dosen't make no defference for me. Allah said that the jews siad " Ezra is the son of Allah" I believe Allah 1000% and I don't believe the Jews. and if you don't believe this fact it is your business not mine.

You also mentioned that:

Major contradiction in the Qur'an:
Jesus was crucified
Jesus was not crucified

Moral dilemma found in the Qur'an:
Muslims cannot lie; Muslims can lie.

Based on this last one, why should anyone believe anything a Muslim posts?

The Quran states very clearly that Jesus wasn't crucified, he was raised with his body to heaven in state of sleeping ( Allah took him to heaven while he was sleeping)

3:55* And (remember) when Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take you in your sleep and raise you to Myself and clear you (of the forged statment that jesus is Allah's son) of those who disbekieve, and I will make those who follow you ( as a Prophet of the only One Allah) superior of those who disbelieve ( in the Oneness of Allah and His all Prophets and His Books ) till the Day of Resurrectin. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you inthe matters in which you used to dispute."

3:59* Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!"-and he was.
3:60* (This is ) the truth from your Lord, so be not of those who doubt.
3:61* Then whoever disputes with you concerning him(Jesus) after (all this) knowledge has come to you, (i.e. 'Jesus being a slave of Allah, and having no share in Divinity) say: ( O Mohammad ) " Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves- then we pray and invoke ( sincerety) the Curse of Allah upon those who lie." ..... I am willing to do this with you if you want.

At the begnning of 3:55....the frase " inni mutawaffika " a lot of Christians they brag about it that it means death from "waffa"...this is very wrong because we only understand the Quranic Arabic by the Quranic words not by so called Arabic linguestics...Allah says in his Book " Huwa Allathee yatawaffakum bllayel" it means He who puts you to sleep at night. So Allah took Jesus up to him while Jesus was sleeping as Allah told us and when Jesus will come down again to live and fight with the muslims against the unbelievers he will die a normal death, where Allah said: wa in min ahlil kitabi layu'minanna bihi qabla mautihi wa yaumal qiyamati yakunu a'layhim shahidan....the word mautihi ( his death ) it goes back to Jesus ( before the death of Jesus) so Jesus will die a normal death after he come down.
as you see the Quran never said: Jesus was crucified / jesus was not crucified this is a very selly and stupid trick we the Christian Arabs used to pull it on muslims but the truth is it is a very weak and false trick ( Play of words ) but in reality those who knows arabic well they know very well that is it fake and not true.

As far for Muslims can lie.....this is not true. BUT if you mean Shieis, then the answer is YES and it is a good dead to lie if you are shiei like I told you before.....but just for the sake of the dabate show me where it says muslims can lie in the Quran. But I will give a verse we use to pull on muslims also....same thing a play of words
16:106whoever disbelieved in Allah after his belief, except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with faith - but such as open their breasts to disbelief, - on them is wrath from allah, and theirs will be a great torment.
there was one of Prophet Mohammad's (SAAWS) companions at the time of the Mecca period where muslims been taken by the pagans of Quraysh and tortured, he was put to a great torture, they want him to declair kufur of Allah and his Prophet Mohammad, so he could not take it any more and he start to say what they want him to say and to praise their gods (hubal, lat, izzah) when he came back and saw the Prophet he told him that he had failed so Prophet Mohammad told him how do you find your heart he said full of love to you and Allah then this verse was revealed and he told him if they go back to what they did, say what you said.

[FIGSOLIVES]

Dear Mr. Aineo,

Now it is my turn, we have to put some light on:

1- The ten cases of incest that is found in the Bible, I would like you to list them and tell us what they do teach us as a moral value or a lesson to humanity.

2- The story of Adam, Eve and Satan in the bible and compare it to the story found in Quran, and what we get also as lessons from it. and what story make more sense.

3- The story of Moses and his brother in the bible when he went to meet his Lord. let us put some light on it and compare it with the same story in Quarn. to see and find out is the Quran realy was a pulled out material from the Bible OR it was a correction sent down by Allah All-Mighty to humanity so they would see what the jews changed in the Book, same case of Jesus, he came down to corrects the alterations and lies made by the jews on Allah and his Prophets. let us see what story have more sense and which story put the place of Allah and his Prophets in great respect and gives them the high values they deserve from us, espacaily the place of All-Mighty The Exalted High One Allah.

4- The contradictions I listed in previos post above that are found in the Bible, I only listed 2 but I have alot of them, I will list them and study them one by one when their time will come.

We have booth Quran and Bible, and please when you quote from the Quran, bring your verses straight from it, like the word of the promise land for jews was never mentioned in Quran

let us keep this debate calm and nice with respect.

Also I would like to dabate with you Allah ( God ) that is found in the Bible and in Quran, we will use only words from the two books to know Him and I think this subject is the most important one because we have to know who is God that we are worshiping, His Names, His abilities, His artibutes ( Sifat) and to know him by his own words that is found in both books.

Then personality of both Jesus and Mohammad found in both books, to whom they were sent to, what happened to them and how God speak to them, and what was their mission. in other words who is Jesus and who is Mohammad from the Bible and Quran only.

Then we will take a look on the Prophets of God, who are they and what they did and preached, to know these Prophets of God from both Bible and Quran and compare their stories from both books and see which book gives them more respect for they are the Prophets of God, they are His Embassadors to humans, His Representatives and the people who deliver His words, let us put some light to see and understand their character in both books.

Then this will be a Bible and Quran Debate.
thanks,

Figsolives

[Aineo]

First, the Qur’an denies the Trinity and according to you never defines the Trinity. However:

004.171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

005.075 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

005.116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah ? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?

The above are quoted from Pickthall’s translation, however:

O People of the Scripture, the Gospel, do not go to extremes, do not go beyond the bounds, in your religion and do not say about God except, the saying of, the truth, such as exalting Him above any associations with a partner or a child: the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word which He cast to, [which] He conveyed to, Mary, and a spirit, that is, one whose spirit is, from Him: he [Jesus] is here attached to God, exalted be He, as an honouring for him, and not as you claim, that he is the son of God, or a god alongside Him, or one of three, because one that possesses a spirit is compound, while God transcends being compound and the attribution of compounds to Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say, that the gods are, 'Three', God, Jesus and his mother. Refrain, from this and say what, it is better for you, [to say], which is the profession of His Oneness. Verily, God is but One God. Glory be to Him, transcending [the possibility], that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth, as possessions, creatures and servants, and such sovereignty is not compatible with [that] prophethood [of Jesus]. God suffices as a Guardian, a Witness to this.
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo ... rProfile=0

The Trinity is defined as One God in three persons and Mary is not now and never has been viewed as one of three gods or a god.

This is a factual error.

The Qur’an plainly states the Jews (not one Jew or one group of Jews) believe that Ezra is the son of God, which is another factual error. You posted you believe the Qur’an 1000%, but had to go outside the Qur’an to find a rationalization for what the Qur’an dogmatically states is the truth.

Now, as to lying:

002.225 Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths. But He will take you to task for that which your hearts have garnered. Allah is Forgiving, Clement.

005.089 Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will take you to task for the oaths which ye swear in earnest. The expiation thereof is the feeding of ten of the needy with the average of that wherewith ye feed your own folk, or the clothing of them, or the liberation of a slave, and for him who findeth not (the wherewithal to do so) then a three days' fast. This is the expiation of your oaths when ye have sworn; and keep your oaths. Thus Allah expoundeth unto you His revelations in order that ye may give thanks.

016.106 Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.

An oath is a promise to fulfill the terms of the oath, but Muslim’s are allowed to take an oath with the intention of not keeping the oath, which means you can lie. You are also allowed to believe in your heart and lie with your mouth about being a Muslim.

Now, lets address the crucifixion:

010.094 And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.

016.043 And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -

021.007 And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not ?

004.157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

Allah is contradicting himself since he allegedly told Muhammad the Bible confirms the Qur’an and then denies the truthfulness of the crucifixion as prophecies in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament. Allah also allegedly told Muhammad the Jews took credit for crucifying Jesus, which is another historical error. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of the Roman province of Judea was responsible for the crucifixion, which was accomplished by a Roman cohort. Muhammad is simply parroting the Catholic/Orthodox tradition that the Jews crucified the Lord.

Now, what Arabic dialect was used to transmit the first copies of the Qur’an?

[FIGSOLIVES]

Mr. Aineo,
The quotation below is wrong. it is not your error, it is an added interpetation of the translator. When I went to the site the Arabic tafseer ( Exegate) does not say "three, God, Jesus and his mother" I will quote the arabic tafseer for you, please find an Arab to translate for you. it does not say anything about Mary being part of the trinity. Simply because this information is not in the verse itself.
Your quote:

Quote:
O People of the Scripture, the Gospel, do not go to extremes, do not go beyond the bounds, in your religion and do not say about God except, the saying of, the truth, such as exalting Him above any associations with a partner or a child: the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word which He cast to, [which] He conveyed to, Mary, and a spirit, that is, one whose spirit is, from Him: he [Jesus] is here attached to God, exalted be He, as an honouring for him, and not as you claim, that he is the son of God, or a god alongside Him, or one of three, because one that possesses a spirit is compound, while God transcends being compound and the attribution of compounds to Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say, that the gods are, 'Three', God, Jesus and his mother. Refrain, from this and say what, it is better for you, [to say], which is the profession of His Oneness. Verily, God is but One God. Glory be to Him, transcending [the possibility], that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth, as possessions, creatures and servants, and such sovereignty is not compatible with [that] prophethood [of Jesus]. God suffices as a Guardian, a Witness to this.
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo ... rProfile=0
The Trinity is defined as One God in three persons and Mary is not now and never has been viewed as one of three gods or a god.

This is a factual error.

the correct quotation ( in Arabic ) of the same site you quote from is:

* تفسير جامع البيان في تفسير القران/ الطبري (ت 310 هـ) مصنف و مدقق

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
قراءة الآية
فتح صفحة القرآن
الانتقال الى صفحة القرآن
{ يٰأَهْلَ ٱلْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ إِلاَّ ٱلْحَقَّ إِنَّمَا ٱلْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ ٱنتَهُواْ خَيْراً لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا ٱللَّهُ إِلَـٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي ٱلأَرْضِ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ وَكِيلاً }


يعنـي جلّ ثناؤه بقوله: { يا أهْلَ الكِتابِ }: يا أهل الإنـجيـل من النصارى، { لا تَغْلُوا فِـي دِيِنِكُمْ } يقول: لا تـجاوزوا الـحقّ فـي دينكم فتفرِطوا فـيه، ولا تقولوا فـي عيسى غير الـحقّ، فإنّ قـيـلكم فـي عيسى إنه ابن الله قول منكم علـى الله غير الـحقّ، لأن الله لـم يتـخذ ولداً، فـيكون عيسى أو غيره من خـلقه له ابناً. { وَلا تَقُولُوا علـى اللَّهِ إلاَّ الـحَقَّ } وأصل الغلوّ فـي كلّ شيء: مـجاوزة حده الذي هو حده، يقال منه فـي الدين قد غلا فهو يغلو غُلُوًّا، وغلا بـالـجارية عظمُها ولـحمُها: إذا أسرعت الشبـاب، فجاوزت لذاتها، يغلو بها غُلُوًّا وغَلاءً ومن ذلك قول الـحارث بن خالد الـمخزومي:خُمْصَانَةٌ قَلِقٌ مُوَشَّحُها رُؤْدُ الشَّبـابِ غلا بها عَظْمُ
وقد حدثنا الـمثنى، قال: ثنا إسحاق، قال: ثنا ابن أبـي جعفر، عن أبـيه، عن الربـيع، قال: صاروا فريقـين: فريق غَلَوا فـي الدين، فكان غلوّهم فـيه: الشكّ فـيه والرغبة عنه. وفريق منهم قصروا عنه ففسقوا عن أمر ربهم.

القول فـي تأويـل قوله تعالـى: { إنَّـمَا الـمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَـمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وكَلِـمَتُهُ ألْقاها إلـى مَرْيَـمَ وَرُوحٌ مِنْهُ }.

يعنـي جلّ ثناؤه بقوله: { إنَّـمَا الـمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَـمُ }: ما الـمسيح أيها الغالون فـي دينهم من أهل الكتاب بـابن الله كما تزعمون، ولكنه عيسى ابن مريـم دون غيرها من الـخـلق، لا نسب له غير ذلك. ثم نعته الله جلّ ثناؤه بنعته ووصفه بصفته، فقال: هو رسول الله، أرسله الله بـالـحق إلـى من أرسله إلـيه من خـلقه. وأصل الـمسيح: الـمـمسوح، صرف من مفعول إلـى فعيـل، وسماه الله بذلك لتطهيره إياه من الذنوب وقـيـل: مسح من الذنوب والأدناس التـي تكون فـي الآدميـين، كما يـمسح الشيء من الأذى الذي يكون فـيه فـيطهر منه، ولذلك قال مـجاهد ومن قال مثل قوله: الـمسيح: الصديق. وقد زعم بعض الناس أن أصل هذه الكلـمة عبرانـية أو سريانـية «مَشِيحَا» فعرّبت، فقـيـل الـمسيح، كما عرّب سائر أسماء الأنبـياء التـي فـي القرآن مثل إسماعيـل وإسحاق وموسى وعيسى.

قال أبو جعفر: ولـيس ما مثل به من ذلك للـمسيح بنظير وذلك أن إسماعيـل وإسحاق وما أشبه ذلك، أسماء لا صفـات، والـمسيح صفة، وغير جائز أن تـخاطب العرب وغيرها من أجناس الـخـلق فـي صفة شيء إلا بـمثل ما يفهم عمن خاطبها، ولو كان الـمسيح من غير كلام العرب ولـم تكن العرب تعقل معناه ما خوطبت به. وقد أتـينا من البـيان عن نظائر ذلك فـيـما مضى بـما فـيه الكفـاية عن إعادته. وأما الـمسيح الدجال، فإنه أيضاً بـمعنى الـمـمسوح العين، صرف من مفعول إلـى فعيـل، فمعنى الـمسيح فـي عيسى صلى الله عليه وسلم: الـمـمسوح البدن من الأدناس والآثام، ومعنى الـمسيح فـي الدجال: الـمـمسوح العين الـيـمنى أو الـيسرى كالذي رُوِيَ عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فـي ذلك.

As you see in the above tafseer there is no mentioning of Mary to be part of the Trinity. It was the error of the person who translated the tafseer of the Verse. So you can't and no body can base his opinion of the Quran on someone's translation. This is the reason why the Quran is the only scripture that is preserved in it's original language ( Arabic ) from the time it was revealed 1400 years ago.... memorized today by over 8 million muslims around the world.

Your quote:

The Qur’an plainly states the Jews (not one Jew or one group of Jews) believe that Ezra is the son of God, which is another factual error. You posted you believe the Qur’an 1000%, but had to go outside the Qur’an to find a rationalization for what the Qur’an dogmatically states is the truth.

Please check this out:

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/jewish-my ... ed-son.htm

Very interesting site, isn't it, JEWS FOR ALLAH!!

"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), those who believe in Allah, and that which has been revealed to you and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah: They will not sell the Revelations of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account."
{Holy Quran 3:199}

May The Lord of the Universe, The God of our Father Abraham ( The Father of Prophets) guide those who are humble in their hearts and sincere in seeking the Truth to His Straight Path.
Ameen

[Aineo]

You need to read (with understanding) what is found on the site you linked to concerning Ezra. When you do you will find words and phrases such as "tradition", "Jews in Yemen", "according to Muslim sources", and "apocryphal" that show only one group of Arabian Jews may have based an apostate belief on a tradition that has no foundation in true Judaism, a fact Allah should have known in the 7th century. Another interesting fact is how the author of the site selectively quoted from the Encyclopaedia Judaica by ignoring: "Muhammad claims (sura 9:30) that in the opinion of the Jews, 'Uzayr (EZRA) is the son of God. These words are an enigma because no such opinion is to be found among the Jews, even though Ezra was singled out for special appreciation." [Encyclopaedia Judaica,
"Ezra," volume 6, pp. 1106-1107].

Nice try, but you, the Qur'an, and Islam loose.

So you take exception with the altafsir.com translation of the Qur'an, however you did not comment on Pickthall's translation, which states the same in different words. I find your appeal to the Arabic odd since you and many Muslims try to pervert Hebrew to show that Muhammad is named in the Bible. In other words you appeal to one language to interpret another, a language that has no traceable written history prior to the time of Muhammad. Strike two.

I see you have not responded to the issue of lying, the crucifixion, and did not tell me what Arabic dialect is the original dialect of the Qur'an. Or are you trying to avoid the fact that not all Muslims recite the same Qur'an?

[FIGSOLIVES]

Your quote:

An oath is a promise to fulfill the terms of the oath, but Muslim’s are allowed to take an oath with the intention of not keeping the oath, which means you can lie. You are also allowed to believe in your heart and lie with your mouth about being a Muslim.

Who told you this. it is another misunderstanding of verses in Quran. BUT if its coming from the Shiei, then like I told you before, they lie and they hide their belief, this is their error and like I said they are NOT muslims, even if they claim that they are.

The Oath is different, has nothing to do with lying, every muslim is obligated to keep his oath, and it is a big sin if you break it. But, if it happened and someone brake his oath then he has to do the mentioned above in verses you quoted. However, he is still sinful and on Judgment day it is up to Allah whether He will punish him or forgive him, no one has the authority to do so except Allah.
Allah says in the Quran: Surah 26 Ash-Shu'ara' from verse 221:
26:221* Shall I inform you upon whom the devils descend?
26:222* They descend on every lying, sinful person.
26:223* Who gives ear (to the devils) and most of them are liars.

Your quote:

Allah is contradicting himself since he allegedly told Muhammad the Bible confirms the Qur’an and then denies the truthfulness of the crucifixion as prophecies in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament. Allah also allegedly told Muhammad the Jews took credit for crucifying Jesus, which is another historical error. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of the Roman province of Judea was responsible for the crucifixion, which was accomplished by a Roman cohort. Muhammad is simply parroting the Catholic/Orthodox tradition that the Jews crucified the Lord.

Again you are taking verses out of context and apply them to wherever you feel like, in those verses you quoted above, the Arab pagans were rejecting Muhammad, they said that how come Allah is sending to us a man like us, Muhammad is a liar he is not Allah's Prophet, if Allah wants to send us a Prophet then he should be an Angel from heaven, then Allah is telling the pagans if you are in doubt that we sent a man (Son of Adam) to you then ask the people of the Book ( Jews and Christians) and see what we had sent as Prophets to them, they were men like you.

On verse 21:7 "And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not ?" which you quoted, please read the next verse 8
21:8* And We did not create them with bodies that eat not food nor were they immortals.
Let me ask you, where does the Crucifixion of Jesus fit in here. except that he was like the rest, a mortal Prophet of God.
The Bible confirms the Quran about the Prophet hood of Muhammad and the Prophets before him being men not angels.
I don't understand from where did you get this contradiction of Allah, Exalted He above such a slander, Allah is not ordering Muhammad nor us to ask the people of the Book in all their scripture and to accept all of it, then why He would send the Quran. Most of the Bible is corrupted, but at the time of Muhammad the jews they knew Muhammad was the true Prophet they were waiting for and they new him more that a man will know his own sun as Allah told us in His Quran, but they rejected him out of envy in their hearts and sickness of their souls.
Allah says in His Book (Quran)
2:89* And when, We gave Muses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear signs and supported him Gabriel. Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant? Some, you disbelieved and some, you killed.

2:146* Those to whom We gave the Book recognize him (Muhammad) as they recognize their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it.

Narrated ‘Ata’ bin Yaser: I met ‘Abdullah bin ‘Amr bun Al-‘Aas and asked him. “Tell me about the description of Allah’s Messenger (Mohammad (SAAWS)) which is mentioned in the Torah. He replied, “Yes. By Allah, he is described in the Torah with some of the qualities attributed to him in the Quran as follows: ‘ O Prophet! We have sent you as a witness (for Allah’s True Religion). And a giver of glad tidings ( to the faithful believers). And a warner ( to the disbelievers), and a guardian of the illiterates. You are My slave and My messenger, I have named you Al-Mutawakkil ( who depends upon Allah only). You are neither discourteous, harsh nor a noise-maker in the markets, and you do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness. Allah will not let him ( Muhammad) die till he makes straight the crooked by making them say: La’ ilaha’ illa-llah”, (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), , by which ‘blind eyes, deaf ears and closed hearts’ will be opened
Bukhari Vol.3 Hadith335.

Narrated Anas: When the news of the arrival of the Prophet Muhammad (SAAWS) at Al-Madinah reached ‘Abdullah bin Salam ( one Rabbi of the jews at Madinah ), he went to him to ask him about certain things, he said: “ I am going to ask you about three things which only a Prophet can answer: What is the first sign of the Hour? What is the first food which the people of Paradise will eat? Why does a child attract the similarity to his father or to his mother?” the Prophet Muhammad (SAAWS) replied, “ Gabriel has just now informed me of that” Ibn Salam said: “He (Gabriel) is the enemy of the jews from among the angels.” The Prophet said: “ As for the sign of The Hour, it will be a fire that will collect ( or gather) the people from the east to the west. As for the first meal which the people of Paradise . As to the similarity of the child, if the man’s discharge preceeds the woman’s discharge, the child attracts the similarity to the man, and if the woman’s discharge proceeds the man’s, then the child attracts the similarity to the woman”. On this, Abdullah bin Salam said: “ I testify that La ilaha illa-llah ( none has the right to be worshipped but Allah ) and that you are Messenger of Allah, and added, “O Allah’s Messenger! Jews make such lies as make one astonished, so please ask them about me before they know about my conversion to islam.” The jews came and the Prophet said: “ What kind of a man is ‘Abdullah bin Salam among you?” They replied, “ The best of us and the son of the best of us and the most superior among us, and the son of the most superior among us.” The Prophet said: “ What would you think if ‘Abdullah bin Salam should embrace islam?” They said, “ May Allah protect him from that.” The Prophet repeated his question and they gave the same answer, then “Abdullah bin Salam came out to them and said “ I testify that La ilaha illa-llah, and that Mohammad is the Messenger of Allah!” On this, the jews said. “ He is the most wicked among us and the son of the most wicked among us.” So they degraded him. On this, he (‘Abdullah bin Salam) said, “ It is this that I was afraid of, O Allah’s Messenger.
Bukhari Vlo.5 Hadith 275

[Aineo]

First, a simple denial or what I quoted from the Qur'an and/or appealing to what you think is a Shiei interpretation is an attempt to avoid explaining those parts of the Qur'an I posted concerning oaths. Taking an oath with the intention of not keeping the oath is lying no matter how vehemently you deny this fact.

Second, 010.034 is not addressed to pagan Arabs, it is addressed to Muhammad. 016.043 taken in context is addressed to Muslims not pagan Arabs.

016.042 Such as are steadfast and put their trust in Allah.
016.043 And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -
016.044 With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.

Also, since according to you these verses apply to pagan Arabs and not Muslims and since the Bible disagrees with the Qur'an and Allah allegedly tells pagan Arabs (according to you) to confirm Muhammad's message in the Bible your explanation is ludicrous and nonsensical.

Muhammad's prophethood is not confirmed in the Bible, this concept is a self-serving, inaccurate interpretation of what Muslims want to see in the Bible not dissimilar to how some Christians find the Trinity in the Bible.

So far you have avoided answering my questions.

[Aineo]

Now, that you have at least addressed my questions, if you will post those 10 Scriptures concerning incest we can address them.

[FIGSOLIVES]

Mr. Aineo,

I am out of town on business trip, I will be back in few days...

I will.

[FIGSOLIVES]

Salam to all those who follow the truth...

Well, I am back from my trip, before I start writing, don't delete my post, OK.. I will be back..

[FIGSOLIVES]

Let me start my reply by telling that the Quran teaches us that every man has a demon with him, this demon can see us but we can’t see him, his job is whisper in us falsehood and his top of the list priorities is to make us disbelieve of the truth and to believe in anything BUT the truth of God All-Mighty (Allah (SWT)), by committing Shirk (taking gods besides God All-Mighty… most of these cases are practiced by putting humans in the position of God, like some people would go to a priest to repent rather than going straight to God Himself, therefore they will take their priests as gods besides God. This act of Shirk in any form is the only sin that God will not forgive if the person dies with it ( but if he repent from Shirk and believe in Allah and his Prophet Mohammad and in his Quran ) for that God-All-mighty is very clear about this in the Quran. Then Allah will forgive him and all his past will be erased ), this demon will stay with us and won’t leave us until we die ( then the battle is over). The reason why I am telling this because I want you to remember that we all human, which means we all subject to error and mistakes, we will do our best to find the Straight Path which will lead us to the Truth. And when God All-Mighty guide us to his Straight Path, the battle is not over yet, we have to strive in this life to stay on it until we meet our Lord ( Allah (SWT)) ( until we die ). I would love for this debate to be as an increase of our knowledge and wisdom and to act upon it and to always remember that we are humans, and we all are brothers form our father Adam.

Before I list my cases of insects found in the Bible, allow me write down few points of one American ex-Christian, who became muslim like me, about how the Bible led him to islam!… and the things he addresses in the Bible and Quran which will be a grate benefit to our debate. as if he is taking the words out of my mouth. Please listen to what he says…

”The Bible Led Me to Islam”

During his life as a Christian there were many verses in the Bible that made him question and doubt the religion he was following (Christianity). To him there was one particular verse, 1 Thessalonians 5:17 which says; "pray without ceasing," that lingered heavily in his mind and soul. He use to often wonders how a person (Christian) was supposed to pray (be in a state of worship) without ceasing? Without any biblical or divine guidance, the only way he thought this to be possible was to “always do good deeds and keep the remembrance of God on my tongue and in my heart” .
However, he found this to be impossible to do as a human being. But when God All-Mighty guided him to Islam in 1987, when he began to read and learn more about this way of life (Islam) , “I found that Islam provided divine guidance both from God (Allah) and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) by which a person could pray (be in a state of worship) without ceasing, if it was the Will of God.”

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfse ... category=1

Please read the story of Dr. Jerald F. Dirks it is a very interesting story, of how this PHD. Priest became a Muslim.

Back to our debate… I would like to put some light on some of the things you wrote before I go with the Bible Debate with you.
As your listed of the contradictions found in Quran that:
Jesus was not crucified.
Jesus was crucified.
This is a very important subject, and the only way to prove it, is to list for us a verse from the Quran that says Jesus was crucified, but because you know very well that no such verse to be found in the Quran or not even to give the meaning of that, then your only way out was to show us some verses where Allah is telling the People of Quraish to ask the people of the Book (like the one you quoted 21:7 , I asked you to read verse 8 as well to prove to you that even Jesus was Human and a son of man), what was the nature of the Prophets that they came to people from God (Allah (SWT))?, as a proof to them that Yes Muhammad is a human and is a Prophet, and in verse: 10:94 as you quoted ( you can see it bellow) you said that “Allah allegedly told Mohammad the Bible confirms the Quran”!!! where did you get this undrstanding!!! It is very obvious your lack of Arabic and Islamic knowledge, let us read this verse:
10:94* So if you ( O Muhammad) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you (i.e. that your name is written in the Torah and the Injeel) then ask those who are reading the Book before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt ( it ) ….then read
2:76* And when they (jews) meet those who believe ( Muslims ), they Say, “We believe”, but when they meet one another in private, they say, “ Shall you (jews) tell them (Muslims) what Allah has revealed to you (jews, about the description and the qualities of Prophet Muhammad, that which are written in the Torah), that they (Muslims) may argue with you (jews) about it before your Lord?” Have you ( jews) no understanding?
2:77* Know they ( jews) not that Allah knows what they conceal and what they reveal?

So Allah is not confirming all the Bible to Prophet Mohammad so he can find ALL the truth in it. It is only the case of Prophet Mohammad’s Prophecy, because the Bible at his time was already corrupted by the jews. I hope this is clear for you now.

As you listed your proof of Jesus crucifixion:

Now, lets address the crucifixion:
Quote:
010.094 And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. 016.043 And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! - 021.007 And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men, whom We inspired. Ask the followers of the Reminder if ye know not ? 004.157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
Allah is contradicting himself since he allegedly told Muhammad the Bible confirms the Qur’an and then denies the truthfulness of the crucifixion as prophecies in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament. Allah also allegedly told Muhammad the Jews took credit for crucifying Jesus, which is another historical error. Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of the Roman province of Judea was responsible for the crucifixion, which was accomplished by a Roman cohort. Muhammad is simply parroting the Catholic/Orthodox tradition that the Jews crucified the Lord.

Now, what Arabic dialect was used to transmit the first copies of the Qur’an?

This play of words game and taking out some verses and explaining them they way you may wish can not be done and practiced in the Quran the same way you do with the Bible. See the Quran is much different than the Bible, it was revealed within 23 years of time to Muhammad (SAAWS), every verse has a story, why, when and where it was revealed. You need to be very knowledgeable of Quranic revelation in order for you to give some light on verses otherwise people will not take your words if you don’t show these qualities, and to Muslims it doesn’t take long to find out if you have this knowledge or not.

Next time if you want to bring contradictions from the Quran, please bring them black and white. And I will do the same at the end of this post.

You also mentioned “ What Arabic dialect used to transmit the first copies of the Quran” !!!! First let me say that Quran was revealed from God (Allah (SWT)) through His Messenger of Revelation of the angels Gabriel peace be upon him to Prophet Muhammad (SAAWS), it was revealed in Quranic Arabic (The Best highest most correct Classical Arabic- which was the Dialect (accent) of Quraish) BUT, yes Quran today is red by more than 1.3 billion Muslim in 10 different dialects (accents). BUT, it is the same Quran in every letter and to give you an example so you would understand what I mean by that. Take any English book and give this SAME book to a black man from Detroit, a red neck from Texas, an English man from London and an Arab man from Egypt, would they read it in the same dialect (accent), I think you know the answer. SO there is no many Qurans in the world, it is only one but also it is printed in different Arabic FONTS, some people like it Bold some people like it Koufi, others like it Diwani but it is the same Book to the letter, if you take one letter out and print a copy, it will take few people to read it to find the error. All these tricks of different versions of the Quran we use to do it when we were small kids, even today the educated Arab Christians will not even open this subject in front of a Muslim because they know very well that the Quran is only one version and all the Qurans around the world are the same exact copy from 1400 years ago until today. Not to mention that Quran was never preserved by copies, from the time of Prophet Muhammad (SAAWS) until today, the Quran was preserved by memorization. And like I said earlier there are more than 8 million memorizers of the Quran today… this is one of the miracles of this Book.

Now allow me to list the cases of INCEST in the Bible.

INCEST: "Sexual intercourse between two persons who are too closely related" (New Collins Dictionary). For example, between father and daughter, son and mother, father-in-law and daughter-in-law, brother and sister, etc.

INCEST IN GOD'S BOOK ? BETWEEN A FATHER AND HIS DAUTERS:
a) "That night they (both the daughters of Lot) gave him (their father Lot) wine to drink, and the older daughter had INTERCOURSE with him…….
" The next day the older daughter said to her sister, I slept with him last night: now let's get him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father." …"So that night they got him drunk, and the younger had INTERCOURSE with him….
" In this way both of Lot's daughters became PREGNANT by their father."
Genesis 19:33-35

In the older Versions, like the King James and the Roman Catholic Versions, "SEXUAL INTERCOURSE" is vaguely described as "COLLECTING THE SEED OF OUR FATHER."

INCEST BETWEEN MOTHER AND SON:
b) " While Jacob (Israel) was in the land, Reuben (his firstborn, his eldest son) had SEXUAL INTERCOURSE with Bilhah, his father's concubine." Genesis 35:22
Concubine and Wife are synonymous terms in the Bible. Look for it in the index under “KETURAH” ( the third wife of Abraham).

INCEST BETWEEN FATHER-IN-LAW AND DAUGHTER-IN-LAW:
c) “When Judah saw her (Tamar, his daughter-in-law) he thought she was a prostitute, because she had covered her face.
“He went over to her at the side of the road and said, “ALL RIGHT, HOW MUCH DO YOU CHARGE?” (He did not know that she was his daughter-in-law *)
“ She said, “What will you give me?” ( to have sex with me)
“He answered, I WILL SEND YOU A YOUNG GOAT FROM MY FLOCK.
“She said, “All right, if you will give me something to keep as a pledge until you send the goat.”
“….He gave them ( the pledges) to her. Then had INTERCOURSE, and she became pregnant.” Genesis 38:15-18 ( Quoted from the “Good News Bible”).
* These words in parenthesis, i.e. within brackets, from “He did not know” to “daughter-in-law” are not in the original Hebrew manuscripts!!. They are the editor’s gloss.
Out of this incestuous relationship between Judah and Tamar, twins were born, who were destined to become the great-grand-father of Jesus Christ. See Matthew 1:3
“ And Judah begat Phares and Zarah of Thamar…”

INCEST AND RAPE BETWEEN BROTHER AND SISTER:
d) “ … he took hold of her (Thamar, his sister, not to be confused with Thamar in “c” above), and said unto her, “Come lie with me (have sex with me), my sister.
“And she answered him, Nay, my brother ( Amnon, one of the sons of David, the man after God’s own heart), do not force me…
“But he would not listen to her; and since he was stronger than she was, he overpowered her and RAPED her (his sister).”

WHOLESALE RAPE AND INCEST BETWEEN SON AND HIS MOTHER!
e) “ So they set up a tent for Absalom (on of King David’s sons) on the palace roof, and in the sight of everyone , Absalom went in and had INTERCOURE with his father’s concubines.” Samuel 16:22

f) For other various types of INCEST see Leviticus 18:8-18, 20:11-14 and 17-21.

One question: what is the moral ethics and wisdom we are getting from these stories? I will give my own input of these stories about God’s Prophets…I can see how filthy the hands that wrote those Books (the hand of the jews) what would you expect from such cursed people ( I mean their Rabbis) and then we have to believe in this mess as a Divine Book, well, I am not that fool, I rather chose a Book who give full respect and honor to the men of God , The Quran , a Book give us the true picture of them and teaches us to love them, honor them and respect them as they are the raw model of humanity.
Now show me one word in the Quran puts the Prophets of God in such manner. At the contrary the Quran is full of respect and honor to them.



Let me give you some examples of real contradictions found in the Bible: not like the crucifixion of Jesus found in Quran!!???
1
When Paul was on the road to Damascus he saw a light and heard a voice. Did those who were with him hear the voice?
Yes (Acts 26:14)
No (Acts 9:7)
2
Did the voice spell out on the spot what Paul’s duties were to be?
Yes (Acts 26:16-18 )
No. The voice commanded Paul to go into the city of Damascus and there he will be told what he must do. (Acts9:7;22: 10)
3
What did Judas do with the blood money he received for betraying Jesus?
He bought a field (Acts 1: 18 )
He threw all of it into the temple and went away. The priests could not put the blood money into the temple treasury, so they used it to buy a field to bury strangers (Matthew 27:5)
4
How did Judas die?
After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5)
After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18 )
5
Is the law of Moses useful?
Yes. “All scripture is... profitable...” (2 Timothy 3:16)
No. “. . . A former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness... “(Hebrews 7:18 )
6
Did Herod want to kill John the Baptist?
Yes (Matthew 14:5)
No. It was Herodias, the wife of Herod who wanted to kill him. But Herod knew that he was a righteous man and kept him safe (Mark 6:20)
7
Jesus saw a man sitat the tax collector’s office and called him to be his disciple. What was his name?
Matthew (Matthew 9:9)
Levi (Mark 2:14; Luke 5:27)
8
Did Jesus pray to The Father to prevent the crucifixion?
Yes. (Matthew 26:39; Mark 14:36; Luke 22:42)
No. (John 12:27)
9
Matthew and Mark agree that Jesus went away and prayed three times. What were the words of the second prayer?
10
Mark does not give the words but he says that the words were the same as the first prayer (Mark 14:3 9)
Matthew gives us the words, and we can see that they are not the same as in the first (Matthew 26:42)
11
What did the centurion say when Jesus dies?
“Certainly this man was innocent” (Luke 23:47)
“Truly this man was the Son of God” (Mark 15:39)
12
When Jesus said “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken Me ? ” in what language did he speak?
Hebrew: the words are “Eloi, Eloi …..“(Matthew 27:46)
Aramaic: the words are “Eloi, Eloi ….. “(Mark 15:34)
13
According to the gospels, what were the last words of Jesus before he died?
“Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!” (Luke 23:46)
"It is finished" (John 19:30).
14
When Jesus entered Capernaum he healed the slave of a centurion. Did the centurion come personally to request Jesus for this?
Yes (Matthew 8:5)
No. He sent some elders of the Jews and his friends (Luke 7:3,6)
15
A large stone was placed at the entrance of the tomb. Where was the stone when the women arrived?
They saw that the stone was “Rolled back” (Mark 16:4) They found the stone “rolled away from the tomb” (Luke 24:2) They saw that “the stone had been taken away from the tomb” (John 20:1)
As the women approached, an angel descended from heaven, rolled away the stone, and conversed with the women. Matthew made the women witness the spectacular rolling away of the stone (Matthew 28:1-6)
16
Did anyone tell the women what happened to Jesus’ body?
Yes. “A young man in a white robe” (Mark 16:5). “Two men ... in dazzling apparel” later described as angels (Luke 24:4 and 24:23). An angel - the one who rolled back the stone (Matthew 16:2). In each case the women were told that Jesus had risen from the dead (Matthew 28:7; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:5 footnote)
No. Mary met no one and returned saying, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him” (John 20:2)
17
When did Mary Magdelene first meet the resurrected Jesus? And how did she react?
Mary and the other women met Jesus on their way back from their first and only visit to the tomb. They took hold of his feet and worshipped him (Matthew 28:9 )
On her second visit to the tomb Mary met Jesus just outside the tomb. When she saw Jesus she did not recognize him. She mistook him for the gardener. She still thinks that Jesus’ body is laid to rest somewhere and she demands to know where. But when Jesus said her name she at once recognized him and called him “Teacher.” Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me...” (John 20:11 to 17 )
18
What was Jesus’ instruction for his disciples?
“Tell my brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see me” (Matthew 2 8: 10 )
“Go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God” (John 20:17 )
19
To whom did the Midianites sell Joseph?
“To the Ishmaelites” (Genesis 37:28 )
“To Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh” (Genesis 37:36)
20
Who brought Joseph to Egypt?
The Ishmaelites bought Joseph and then “took Joseph to Egypt” (Genesis 37:28 )
“The Midianites had sold him in Egypt” (Genesis 37:36)
Joseph said to his brothers “I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt” (Genesis 45:4)
21
Adam was told that if and when he eats the forbidden fruit he would die the same day (Genesis 2:17)
Adam ate the fruit and went on to live to a ripe old age of 930 years (Genesis 5:5)
22
God decided that the life-span of humans will be limited to 120 years (Genesis 6:3)
Many people born after that lived longer than 120. Arpachshad lived 438 years. His son Shelah lived 433 years. His son Eber lived 464 years, etc. (Genesis 11:12-16)
23
Does God change his mind?
Yes. “The word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I repent that I have made Saul King...” (I Samuel 15:10 to 11)
No. God “will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent” (I Samuel 15:29)
Yes. “And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel” (I Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions:
i. “The Lord was sorry that he made man” (Genesis 6:6)
“I am sorry that I have made them” (Genesis 6:7)
ii. “And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people” (Exodus 32:14).
iii. (Lots of other such references).
24
Who killed Goliath?
David (I Samuel 17:23, 50)
Elhanan (2 Samuel 21:19)
25
Who killed Saul?
“Saul took his own sword and fell upon it.... Thus Saul died... (I Samuel 31:4-6)
An Amalekite slew him (2 Samuel 1:1- 16)
26
Does every man sin?
Yes. “There is no man who does not sin” (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810)
No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. “Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.. (I John 5:1). “We should be called children of God; and so we are” (I John 3: 1). “He who loves is born of God” (I John 4:7). “No one born of God commits sin; for God’s nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God” (I John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! “If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (I John 1:8 )
27
Who will bear whose burden?
“Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2)
“Each man will have to bear his own load” (Galatians 6:5)
28
How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection?
Twelve (I Corinthians 15:5)
Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:3 3)
29
Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
After his baptism, “the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days ... (Mark 1:12-13)
Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee - two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11)
30
Was baby Jesus’ life threatened in Jerusalem?
Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)
No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)
31
When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond?
They worshipped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God” (Matthew 14:33)
“They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened” (Mark 6:51-52)
32
Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)
33
Who was the father of Joseph, husband of Mary?
Jacob (Matthew 1:16)
Hell (Luke 3:23)
34
Jesus descended from which son of David?
Solomon (Matthew 1:6)
Nathan(Luke3:31)
35
Would Jesus inherit David’s throne?
36
Yes. So said the angel (Luke 1:32)
No, since he is a descendant of Jehoiakim (see Matthew 1: I 1, I Chronicles 3:16). And Jehoiakim was cursed by God so that none of his descendants can sit upon David’s throne (Jeremiah 36:30)
37
How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ?
By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17)
His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)
38
Did John the Baptist recognize Jesus before his baptism?
Yes (Matthew 3:13-14)
No (John 1:32,33)
39
According to the Gospel of John, what did Jesus say about bearing his own witness?
“If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true” (John 5:3 1)
“Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true” (John 8:14)
40
Did Judas kiss Jesus?
Yes (Matthew 26:48-50)
No. Judas could not get close enough to Jesus to kiss him (John 18:3-12)
41
Did Jesus bear his own cross?
Yes (John 19:17)
No (Matthew 27:31-32)
42
Did Jesus ascend to Paradise the same day of the crucifixion?
Yes. He said to the thief who defended him, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43)
No. He said to Mary Magdelene two days later, “I have not yet ascended to the Father” (John 20:17)

Now from the above samples of real contradictions that are found in the Bible, it is very clear that the Bible is written by different MEN, and those men are not the original ones who wrote it, it is very clear that is not Divine Book, because of its countless errors,
Allah (SWT) says in his Book Quran “ Verily, If it was ( the Quran ) from one other than Allah, surely they would find a great differences in it”
Exactly the case we have with the Bible.

[Aineo]

First, the next time you post an entire article from another site I will delete your whole post instead of editing it.

Second, your quotations from the Qur’an contain commentaries explaining what is not actually found in the words of the Qur’an, which makes your explanation self-serving and shows that you don’t believe what is written without changing what was written to justify your interpretation of how the Qur’an actually reads. In other words, you have yet to make your case.

Third, I have posted links to sites that contain the testimonies of Muslim’s who have rejected Islam for Christianity. The fact is FIGSOLIVES there are more Muslims leaving Islam than there are Catholics converting to Islam so spare me from having to edit your posts.

Fourth, the Bible was written over a period of about 1500 years and contains the history of the Jews as well as God‘s revealed Law prophesies concerning the Jews, the Messiah, and the end of time. Therefore the fact God (who is the real author of the Bible) records the sins of the Jews instead of ignoring the fact men are human (as you pointed out in your opening remarks) is the best evidence the Bible is true, accurate, and can be believed. This is unlike the Qur’an where Muhammad had a vision every time he got caught with his pants down so that his immoral behavior could be justified by Allah, contains no history, and can be shown to have been plagiarized from Christian and Jewish sources with Muhammad’s self-serving additions that justified his wars of conquest.

Fifth, the Qur’an was compiled into a written book after the death of Muhammad from sources that have been lost, therefore you cannot tell us with certainty the original sources were all written in the same dialect. In fact, it is a historical fact that there was 7 different recitations.

As I studied the history of the compilation of the text of the Quran, I was very surprised to learn that the Quran as we have it today went through many stages of evolution before becoming standardized. For example I discovered that there was seven different ways to recite the Quran. One could recite and memorize the Quran differently and it was still acceptable as the word of Allah. Note from the Sahih Bukhari Hadith:
Volume 3, Book 41, Number 601: Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:
I heard Hisham bin Hakim bin Hizam reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to that of mine. Allah's Apostle had taught it to me (in a different way). So, I was about to quarrel with him (during the prayer) but I waited till he finished, then I tied his garment round his neck and seized him by it and brought him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I have heard him reciting Surat-al-Furqan in a way different to the way you taught it to me." The Prophet ordered me to release him and asked Hisham to recite it. When he recited it, Allah s Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way." He then asked me to recite it. When I recited it, he said, "It was revealed in this way. The Quran has been revealed in seven different ways, so recite it in the way that is easier for you."
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... orthy2.htm

From the same site:

Sadly, I reached a place of understanding regarding the compilation of the Quran that

• Mohammad had not compiled the Quranic material into a single Quran Manuscript. He recommended four teachers to teach the Quranic material. He also confirmed that the Quran could be recited in seven different ways.
• Khalifa Abu Bakr ordered Zaid bin Thabit, one of the scribes, who was not one of the four teachers Mohammad had recommended, to compile the Quranic material into one single manuscript, when the qurra started to die in battle.
• Within a few years, different versions of the Quran were in circulation, causing problems among the Muslim community. Khalifa Uthman ordered the distribution of modified copies of the Zaid bin Thabit version of the Quran that was with Khalifa Umar’s daughter, Hafsa. He also ordered the destruction of all other Qurans that were compiled by others.

Some Muslims have a problem with these conclusions as they believe this is not what happened. However, the authoritative record we have in Islamic history is from the Sahih Hadith, the Sirat (biography) of Mohammad and from the Tafsir (commentary) of the Quran. There is no other historical Islamic source that can speak with authority on this topic. From all of these sources, the testimony that comes across is the same as I have discussed using the Sahih Hadith of Bukhari as my primary source. This is far from the perfect authoritative compilation of the Quran I was taught we had directly from Mohammad.

Here is a link that refutes the idea that every Qur’an in the world is the same:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm

Now, without using the Qur’an prove the Jews changed or corrupted the Hebrew Bible. This will be a bit difficult for you since the Dead Sea Scrolls verify that the Bible we have today is the same one the Essenes had in the 1st century.

As to your alleged Bible contradictions, I need some time to address those that have not already been explained on the site I linked to earlier on this thread. Have you checked out that link or are you just posting nonsense since you don’t have any valid defense of the Qur’an?

[Aineo]

Now as to your alleged contradictions in the Bible text, I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "contradiction" since most of your examples are best termed "apparent discrepancies". However, all of your examples plus all others alleged discrepancies and contradictions skeptics and Muslims appeal to are answered here:

http://www.tektonics.org/

The Apologetics Encyclopedia section of this above site has your answers broken down by book, chapter, and verse.

[FIGSOLIVES]

Post edited out. You were warned so you know why.

[Aineo]

I suggest you rethink your last post, which is I edited out. The next time you make a post in huge font I will not only delete the post I will terminate you posting privileges. This is your last warning.

[FIGSOLIVES]

YOUR QUOTE.

unlike the Qur’an where Muhammad had a vision every time he got caught with his pants down so that his immoral behavior could be justified by Allah

THIS IS SHOWING YOUR REAL BACK-GROUND, NOW I KNOW WHOM I AM DEALING WITH...

SHAME ON YOU.

NOW LET ME INVITE YOU TO A CURSE CALLING, THEN THIS SO CALLED DEBATE BETWEEN YOU AND ME WILL END.

3:61* Then whoever disputes with you concerning him(Jesus) after (all this) knowledge has come to you, (i.e. 'Jesus being a slave of Allah, and having no share in Divinity) say: ( O Mohammad ) " Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves- then we pray and invoke ( sincerety) the Curse of Allah upon those who lie

I CHALLEGE YOU TO PRAY WITH ALL YOUR HEART, MIND AND SOUL TO YOUR GOD, PRAIS HIM AND INVOKE HIS CURSE UPON YOU IF WHAT YOU ARE FOLLOWING THROUGH JESUS THE LORD WITH YOUR VERSION OF CHRISTIANITY IS NOT THE TRUTH.

LIKEWISE I WILL DO THE SAME..

I PRAY WITH ALL MY HEART AND SOUL WITH MY OUTMOST SINCERITY TO GOD ALL-MIGHTY, ALLAH, GOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS (ADAM, ABRAHAM, NOA, JACOB, DAVID, JOSEF, JHON, LOT,MOSES,....... JESUS AND MOHAMMAD) THE OWNER OF THE EARTH AND THE HEAVENS AND WHATS BETWEEN THEM, I ASK HIM WITH ALL HUMBELNESS AND AS A SLAVE TO HIM TO PUT HIS CURSE AND ANGER UPON ME FOREVER , ON MY ENTIRE FAMILY AND ON MY 6 CHILDREN IF MOHAMMAD WAS NOT HIS LAST PROPHET TO ALL MANKIND, THE PROPHET JESUS TOLD HIS DESIPLES ABOUT, AND IF THE QURAN IS NOT GOD'S LAST BOOK TO ALL MANKIND AS THEIR ONLY GUIDE FROM GOD, AND IF ISLAM IS NOT THE ONLY TRUE RELEGION ACCEPTED BY GOD AFTER THE COMMING OF PROPHET MOHAMMAD AND NOTHING ELSE WOULD BE ACCEPTED BY GOD, AND IF ALL THE PROPHETS OF GOD BEFORE MOHAMMAD WERE NOT MUSLIMS LIKE HIM, FOLLOWING THE SAME RELEGION OF GOD ALL-MIGHTY, THE ONE , THE ONLY ONE, AND IF JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED ON THE CROSS.

I WANT YOU TO DO THE SAME..... I DARE YOU TO DO IT

DON'T DELETE THIS POST AND ANSWER MY CURSE CALLING IF YOU ARE A TRUE BELEIVER OF "YAWEH AND THE LORD JESUS".

[Aineo]

I wonder if you have actually read my posts.

First, the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God, therefore I do not need Muhammad or the Qur'an to tell me God's truth.

Second, if Muhammad is the "last prophet of God" then why did Muhammad have 13 wives (instead of 4) and marry his adopted son's ex-wife (commit incest). Muhammad was a violent, sex crazed, money hungry, war monger who contradicted himself in the Qur'an, which makes your Allah a false god.

I challenge you to pray for wisdom and that the scales will fall from your eyes so you can see and hear that Islam is a mockery of the one true God, Yahweh who chose the sons of Jacob (Israel) as His chosen people and will in His time honor the covenant He made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) by destroying Israel's enemies. Muslims in Iran, and other Muslims nations are rejecting Islam on a daily basis in search for the true God of mercy, love, and grace. This is especially true of women who are tired of being treated as chattels.

What is interesting about your challenge is the fact you have not even bothered to refute there is more than one version of the Qur'an (there are 7 recitations), that you have not been able to refute that Allah allows Muslims to lie, that the Qur'an says Jesus was not crucified and that Jesus was crucified, and that Allah told Muhammad the Bible also contains his words; words that contradict the Qur'an and expose Muhammad as a false prophet.

I knew who I was dealing with on this thread from your first post, a man who decided that screaming and lies would over ride truth and the truth is Islam is headed for total destruction when Jesus returns to set up the Kingdom of God on earth.

[FIGSOLIVES]

I WANT YOU TO DO THE SAME..... I DARE YOU TO DO IT.

[Aineo]

I WANT YOU TO DO THE SAME..... I DARE YOU TO DO IT.

Still no response to 7 recitations of the Qur'an and etc. Why should I pray to a false god concerning a man made religion, that denies the only true God's revealed truth? A religion that incorporates myths and legends from apocryphal literature as well as Greek and Arab paganism?

[Aburaees]

I WANT YOU TO DO THE SAME..... I DARE YOU TO DO IT.

In the Bible, Figsolives, we are told not to swear an oath e.t.c. but to let our Yes mean Yes, and our No mean No....

So don't expect any Bible-believer to disobey a command from God in entertaining your curse-challenge.

.

[FIGSOLIVES]

Why should I pray to a false god concerning a man made religion, that denies the only true God's revealed truth? A religion that incorporates myths and legends from apocryphal literature as well as Greek and Arab paganism?

WHO SAID I WANT YOU TO PRAY ON ISLAM!!..... I WANT YOU TO DO THE SAME , WHICH MEANS TO PARY TO GOD TO CURSE YOU IF THE BIBLE WE HAVE IN OUR HANDS TODAY IS THE WORDS OF MEN AND NOT THE WORDS OF GOD AND IF JESUS WAS NOT CRUSIFIED AND IF CHIRSTIANITY INCLUDING ALL THE SECTS WE HAVE TODAY IS NOT THE RELEGION OF TRUTH AND IF ISLAM IS THE TRUTH.....THIS IS WAHT I WANT YOU TO DO.
BUT I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THIS CURSE CALLING, IT IS SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU ARE IN DOUBT OF WHAT YOU ARE FOLLOWING THROUGH JESUS, SO HOW CAN YOU PUT A CURSE ON YOURSELF IF YOU ARE NOT SURE 100% WHAT YOU ARE FOLLOWING IS THE ONLY TRUTH WITH NO DOUBT. I HAVE NO DOUBT IN ISLAM AND I PROVE IT TO YOU BY MY PRAYER....SO PROVE TO ME THAT YOU HAVE NO DOUBT IN CHRISTIANITY..... I AM WAITTING.

AS FOR YOU MR. ABURAEES,
DON'T TELL ME CHRISTIANS CAN'T MAKE AN OATH...THIS IS VERY SILLY.....WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU GO TO CORT IF YOU ARE A WITNESS IN A CASE ....YOU PUT YOUR HAND ON THE BIBLE AND SAY WHAT?.....
BUT IF YOU INSIST, SHOW ME WHERE IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE THAT YOU CAN'T MAKE AN OATH OF TRUTH?....

[Aineo]

You just love to assume you know what I think don't you? I am not afraid to believe God and God's word, which is found in the Bible not the Qur'an. Your infantile dare is similar to how Mormon's deceive people into accepting the Book of Mormon as inspired. God will "curse" those who reject His truth, so my daily prayer is for wisdom.

As to curses:

Deuteronomy 27:24 Cursed is the one who attacks his neighbor secretly.' NKJV

This is part and parcel part of Islam and what Islam teaches.

009.003 And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,
009.004 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
009.005 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Allah, tells Muslims to deal respectfully with the People of the Book and then tells Muslims to reject the People of the Book and force them to convert with force if necessary.

I have posted why I reject the Qur'an, and your "dare" is not going to change my mind, or my behavior.

Another one of your assumptions that is false since Aburaees is a woman.

Matthew 5:33-37

"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old,'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
NKJV

This must be balanced with:

Luke 20:21-25

21 Then they asked Him, saying,"Teacher, we know that You say and teach rightly, and You do not show personal favoritism, but teach the way of God in truth: 22 Is it lawful for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

23 But He perceived their craftiness, and said to them, "Why do you test Me? 24 Show Me a denarius. Whose image and inscription does it have?"

They answered and said, "Caesar's."

25 And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
NKJV

The Kingdom of God is not of this realm, therefore we must live in accordance with secular authorities as long as secular authority does not require we adopt practices contrary to God's truth, which includes your dare. Also, not all jurisdictions require one take an oath on the Bible. Non-Christians can refuse as can those who see taking an oath as a violation of their religious beliefs. In these cases one can simply affirm their testimony is true. A 1961 U.S. Supreme Court decision guaranteed oath-takers the freedom to conscientiously object to religion or the swearing of oaths. So you see your dare is moot for a Christian.

[Aineo]

Farid, I split your comments from this thread to its own thread.

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=8956