In many instances in the Bible Jesus knew what other people were thinking. He could read their minds. not even psychics can do this. This would seem to correlate with God who knows our thoughts because He is omniscient.
many worshipped Him and sometimes called Him 'God", but never did Jesus rebuke such things. The Jews knew that the Son was equal to the Father, so it's stated in the Gospels, and were infuriated with Him because Jesus wasn't this powerful Son but a humble teacher.
Jesus as an omniscient being who was worshipped as God
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Believer
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Jesus as an omniscient being who was worshipped as God
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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In Judaism the eldest son is equal with his father. So when Jesus said He is the Son of God the Jews assumed Jesus was claiming equality with God the Father. However, Jesus never claimed to be God.
As to what Jesus knew:
John 12:49-50
49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak. 50 "And I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."
NAS
As to what Jesus knew:
John 12:49-50
49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak. 50 "And I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."
NAS
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Jesus never claimed to be God.
And he never rebuked people for worshipping Him as God, and He never rebuked Thomas who called Him "God", or the Jews who assumed He was equal to the Father. The "Son of God" figure exists in Jewish scripture, they must have known that. So that argument is kinda weak. Jesus never claimed abortion was wrong either. No one asked Him if He was God!! Or if abortion is evil.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Believer
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According to the Trinitarian doctrine, the Godhead makes the decisons, Jesus's will is God's will. Jesus as a man is the prophet whom every word he spoke was the Word of God. He is the Word made flesh.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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As the image of the invisible God and God's representative on earth Jesus accepted worship as God's agent and anointed King. In Judaism this is known as the Law of Agency.
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NAS
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NAS
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As the image of the invisible God and God's representative on earth Jesus accepted worship as God's agent and anointed King. In Judaism this is known as the Law of Agency.
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NAS
Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He existed the the form of God, they share the same nature and Jesus didn't think it necessary to even claim to be the Father's equal. It's obvious. He prexisted all things, and through Him all was created. Scripture says that. Because Jesus left His Godly state and took the form of a man and fulfilled what was the Father's Will, he was glorified and all will worship Him.
Jesus is the King, but God Himself declares that He is the King many times in the OT. Is it really so odd that Jesus and the Father are one in nature and being?
Phillipians 2:5-8
2:5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,
2:6 who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider it robbery to be equal with God,
2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the cross.
His ability to read minds and forgive sins Himself and accept worship and someone calling Him God sets Him apart from a glorified servant like Moses or Elijah. The Jews had reason to find Jesus blasphemous.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Believer
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Colossians 2:9
"For in Him dwells the whole fullness of the Diety body"
This complements Phillipians 2:6. Jesus possess an actual divine nature. This would make sense if He preexisted all things and was there when all was created.
"For in Him dwells the whole fullness of the Diety body"
This complements Phillipians 2:6. Jesus possess an actual divine nature. This would make sense if He preexisted all things and was there when all was created.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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The fullness of diety dwells in the Lord because:
Hebrews 1:1-5
1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee"?
And again,
"I will be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me"?
NAS
As God's agent, hier, and anointed King the Lord has God's authority.
Hebrews 1:1-5
1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee"?
And again,
"I will be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me"?
NAS
As God's agent, hier, and anointed King the Lord has God's authority.
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Scripture also reveals Jesus has a divine nature. He existed in the divine form of God and was glorified in Godly power BEFORE He came to earth. You're ignoring a big part of the picture. The fullness of Diety can also mean literally that Jesus was fully divine in nature. This makes more sense for an argument. You're speaking only of Jesus as a human being where he takes on the form and likeness of a "Son of Man".
One thing really seems odd to me, Aineo. How the Protestants reject so many Catholic beliefs yet they hold so strongly to the Trinity. If God were inspiring them to rebel against a crazy Catholic Church with wild doctrines, why retain the craziest wildest doctrine? has it ever occured that maybe you lack faith in God and His Church? The Church purged itself of the corruptions that on occasion occured during the midieval ages...this could not happen without the presence of the Holy Spirit and Jesus who promised to stand by His Church which is rich in vitality and orthodox Christianity today. Also, the importance of the Church prevents ordinary people from making their own little conclusions and interpretations from scripture...this is how cults form like Arianism and JW.
One thing really seems odd to me, Aineo. How the Protestants reject so many Catholic beliefs yet they hold so strongly to the Trinity. If God were inspiring them to rebel against a crazy Catholic Church with wild doctrines, why retain the craziest wildest doctrine? has it ever occured that maybe you lack faith in God and His Church? The Church purged itself of the corruptions that on occasion occured during the midieval ages...this could not happen without the presence of the Holy Spirit and Jesus who promised to stand by His Church which is rich in vitality and orthodox Christianity today. Also, the importance of the Church prevents ordinary people from making their own little conclusions and interpretations from scripture...this is how cults form like Arianism and JW.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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Scripture reveals Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature, but Scripture does not tell us that Jesus has God's attributes. The Lord told us the Father is in Him, which is why all the fullness of deity is contained in the Lord, who was a man with a nature like ours.
God's truth is not dependent on how many people accept a doctrine. God has given us His truth in His word, which we need to study in order to understand. Peter warns that we are not to interpret God's word, which is the only way men can come up with Jesus is God.
Men purged the Catholic/Orthodox churches of all Hebrew influence and by doing so purged God's truth from their doctrines. The foundation of Christianity and the true Church of Jesus Christ is the apostles and the prophets, not gentiles who were influenced by pagan Greek traditions and philosophy. Jesus told us that only those who do the will of the Father and endure to the end will be saved, He did not tell us the majority rules. He also told us that we will suffer for His truth. So those who suffered at the hands of the Catholic Church by rejecting its heresies are those who will see and be with the Lord for eternity.
Also the fact you are trying to equate what Arian taught with what I believe only shows your ignorance of Arianism and Biblical truth. Arian believed that Jesus is a minor god, which is pagan mythology. I believe that the Bible tells us that Jesus preexisted as God's plan for the salvation of mankind, not as a divine being. I accept as God's truth what Peter preached in Acts 2. Catholicism rejected the truthfullness of what Peter actually taught by appealing to human philsophy and the traditions of men.
God's truth is not dependent on how many people accept a doctrine. God has given us His truth in His word, which we need to study in order to understand. Peter warns that we are not to interpret God's word, which is the only way men can come up with Jesus is God.
Men purged the Catholic/Orthodox churches of all Hebrew influence and by doing so purged God's truth from their doctrines. The foundation of Christianity and the true Church of Jesus Christ is the apostles and the prophets, not gentiles who were influenced by pagan Greek traditions and philosophy. Jesus told us that only those who do the will of the Father and endure to the end will be saved, He did not tell us the majority rules. He also told us that we will suffer for His truth. So those who suffered at the hands of the Catholic Church by rejecting its heresies are those who will see and be with the Lord for eternity.
Also the fact you are trying to equate what Arian taught with what I believe only shows your ignorance of Arianism and Biblical truth. Arian believed that Jesus is a minor god, which is pagan mythology. I believe that the Bible tells us that Jesus preexisted as God's plan for the salvation of mankind, not as a divine being. I accept as God's truth what Peter preached in Acts 2. Catholicism rejected the truthfullness of what Peter actually taught by appealing to human philsophy and the traditions of men.
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Scripture reveals Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature, but Scripture does not tell us that Jesus has God's attributes. The Lord told us the Father is in Him, which is why all the fullness of deity is contained in the Lord, who was a man with a nature like ours.
Phillipians 2:6 states that Jesus existed in the divine form of God. He isn't just an exact representation. He possess God's attributes to manipulate nature at will, read others minds or omniscience, forgive our sins, and accept worship and talk of Him being God. Omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. Jesus knows all, sees all, and can be many places at once...except when he was limited to a human body.
You interpret this differently.
If Jesus were always a man even before the earth and man's physical form was created, and He predated Adam. To say that Jesus was a "man" before man was created is unusual.
Jesus was the Word made flesh. Jesus proclaims to have been there when the universe was created. When God spoke "let there be light", Jesus was there...the Word of God was spoken then and an eternity before all was created. Jesus was never created, but always existed. he had a divine nature. He shares the fullness of the Diety of God.
God's truth is not dependent on how many people accept a doctrine. God has given us His truth in His word, which we need to study in order to understand. Peter warns that we are not to interpret God's word, which is the only way men can come up with Jesus is God.
Peter was the first bishop of Rome, after him all of the Popes of the catholic Church suceeded. This is called Petrine succession. The Church is this authority. You're argument is alittle backwards.
Men purged the Catholic/Orthodox churches of all Hebrew influence and by doing so purged God's truth from their doctrines. The foundation of Christianity and the true Church of Jesus Christ is the apostles and the prophets, not gentiles who were influenced by pagan Greek traditions and philosophy. Jesus told us that only those who do the will of the Father and endure to the end will be saved, He did not tell us the majority rules. He also told us that we will suffer for His truth. So those who suffered at the hands of the Catholic Church by rejecting its heresies are those who will see and be with the Lord for eternity.
Is this about Tradition again? I got news for you, Judaism and Islam in addition to their holy books have a rich tradition. Christianity is no different. We have Tradition.
Also the fact you are trying to equate what Arian taught with what I believe only shows your ignorance of Arianism and Biblical truth. Arian believed that Jesus is a minor god, which is pagan mythology. I believe that the Bible tells us that Jesus preexisted as God's plan for the salvation of mankind, not as a divine being. I accept as God's truth what Peter preached in Acts 2. Catholicism rejected the truthfullness of what Peter actually taught by appealing to human philsophy and the traditions of men.
How could Jesus not be a divine being and preexist all things and be seated with the Father? Scripture reveals that Jesus has a divine nature. It seems unusual to me how much you're willing to reject that. So, Jesus is a divine being. Accept Jesus for what He is, your Lord and your God.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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Eve added to God's word and so have you. Philippians tells us that Jesus existed in the form of God and that Jesus did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped and therefore He took on the form of a servant. Philippians does not tell us that Jesus was divine. Pagan Greeks decided that Jesus is divine.
As to the balance of your post I suggest you study Peter's sermon in Acts 2. He preached the truth not a pack of lies based on Greek philosophy.
As to the balance of your post I suggest you study Peter's sermon in Acts 2. He preached the truth not a pack of lies based on Greek philosophy.
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Eve added to God's word and so have you. Philippians tells us that Jesus existed in the form of God and that Jesus did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped and therefore He took on the form of a servant. Philippians does not tell us that Jesus was divine. Pagan Greeks decided that Jesus is divine.
As to the balance of your post I suggest you study Peter's sermon in Acts 2. He preached the truth not a pack of lies based on Greek philosophy
Whose Eve?? Anyways, not "therefore". He simply took the form of a servant and fulfilled His role. He was always a glorified divine being. You're adding words now. You only interpret things your own little way. Peter spoke ONLY of Jesus as a servant and a man. There's more to Him then that. You know that deep inside!
Jesus was the Word made flesh. Jesus proclaims to have been there when the universe was created. When God spoke "let there be light", Jesus was there...the Word of God was spoken then and an eternity before all was created. Jesus was never created, but always existed. he had a divine nature. He shares the fullness of the Diety of God.
If Jesus were always a man even before the earth and man's physical form was created, and He predated Adam. To say that Jesus was a "man" before man was created is unusual.
How could Jesus not be a divine being and preexist all things and be seated with the Father? Scripture reveals that Jesus has a divine nature. It seems unusual to me how much you're willing to reject that. So, Jesus is a divine being. Accept Jesus for what He is, your Lord and your God.
My last thread was nothing but excellent points. Don't ignore them, now.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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Believer
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Let me condense it for you:
How could Jesus not be a divine being and preexist all things and be seated with the Father?
Jesus was there...the Word of God was spoken then and an eternity before all was created
To say that Jesus was a "man" before man was created is unusual.
Pagan doctrine doesn't exist in the Bible. And so what I believe is based in the Bible. One could say the dying and ressurecting Jesus is a pagan idea, resembling mystery cults of the same time period, except it is based in the Bible. Jesus's divine nature is one of these Bible-based beliefs. You are refusing to even think about what I'm saying in my last thread. That is strongly suspicious. I want to hear your position on what I've said, I even condensed it here, that is further support that He is a divine being. This isn't propaganda, it's compelling scripture that throws you're little theory way off.
How could Jesus not be a divine being and preexist all things and be seated with the Father?
Jesus was there...the Word of God was spoken then and an eternity before all was created
To say that Jesus was a "man" before man was created is unusual.
Pagan doctrine doesn't exist in the Bible. And so what I believe is based in the Bible. One could say the dying and ressurecting Jesus is a pagan idea, resembling mystery cults of the same time period, except it is based in the Bible. Jesus's divine nature is one of these Bible-based beliefs. You are refusing to even think about what I'm saying in my last thread. That is strongly suspicious. I want to hear your position on what I've said, I even condensed it here, that is further support that He is a divine being. This isn't propaganda, it's compelling scripture that throws you're little theory way off.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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Pagan doctrine exists in Catholicism as well as the Orthodox faiths, which teach as God's truth myths based in Greek philosophy as well as concepts imported from paganism.Believer wrote:Pagan doctrine doesn't exist in the Bible. And so what I believe is based in the Bible.
Jesus preexisted all of creation as God's plan for the redemption of mankind just as Peter preached in Acts 2, which I am still waiting for you to comment on. However, like all Catholics you avoid God's word like the plague since God's word (logos) defeats your heretical doctrines.
Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
NAS
Greeks decided that God lied and taught God is not one but three by appealing to philosophy not God's word. How could the man Jesus live a perfect and sinless life? By humbling Himself before God and putting God's will above His own.
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Believer
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Pagan doctrine exists in Catholicism as well as the Orthodox faiths, which teach as God's truth myths based in Greek philosophy as well as concepts imported from paganism.
Jesus's divinity and the Trinity are in scripture, like the death and ressurection of Jesus. These cannot be pagan. I've shown you many things already but you refuse to acdept. Pagan thought influenced the Gnostics and Arians, whose derivates exist today under various forms and names. The Trinity has no true analogues in pagan religions.
Jesus preexisted all of creation as God's plan for the redemption of mankind just as Peter preached in Acts 2, which I am still waiting for you to comment on. However, like all Catholics you avoid God's word like the plague since God's word (logos) defeats your heretical doctrines.
How far back did Jesus exist? Was He eternally with the Father, or like the Arians do you insist He was created at some point? If He is the Word of God, or shares in the nature of the Father then He can't be finite in existence. God's word shows Jesus's divine nature which you have some kind of taboo against.
Greeks decided that God lied and taught God is not one but three by appealing to philosophy not God's word. How could the man Jesus live a perfect and sinless life? By humbling Himself before God and putting God's will above His own.
And Trinitarian Hebrews? You're idea is based on two things: There's no evidence for Jesus's divinity and the Trinity in the Bible and because someone is Greek and Christian then they must have pagan influences wrapped in their minds. You're castle is build on the most silty muddiest sand! If this is what you believe, don't act surprised if many don't follow you.
I've stated over and over again that in Acts 2, Peter spoke of Jesus as a man. Was Jesus always a man? I mean really, was Jesus a man in His preexistent existence before man existed? Seriously, what was Jesus?
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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Believer
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Why don't you listen to me? Peter was emphasizing about Jesus's role on earth and what He did for us. Jesus as a man, was He a man before man was created? We call the first man "Adam" because that's what the word means. Phillipians 2:6 shows us that Jesus was always a glorified divine being, but came to earth and Peter proclaimed the rest. The foreknowledge of God, of course God had a plan. Jesus a man of flesh with the fullness of the Diety in Him. If you took from Jesus whose soul was one in nature with the Father, only the flesh and bone of a human remain. Jesus was the Prophet whom every word he spoke was the Word of God. He is the Word incarnate. It starts to make sense that Jesus is Lord God. Thomas, after it occured to him what was happening, immediately knew who Jesus was and all that was said and made known. He calls Jesus the phrase often seen in the Psalms "My Lord and my God!"
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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So, like all Catholics you are not willing to actually discuss what is recorded in God's word and simply denigrate those who disagree with you. Also you keep adding to what is in the Bible. Hebrews does not tell us that Jesus was one nature with the God.
As to your appeal to Thomas and the OT phrase "my Lord and my God", which is only used once in Psalm 35, you are totally ignoring the Lord's own words when He told Mary He had yet to ascent to her Father and His Father and her God and His God. So you see Believer your one example is overwhelming defeated by the Lord's own words.
And BTW, why should I listen to you? You belong to a religion that denies God's inerrant word and promotes idol worship and socerery by communicating with the dead.
As to your appeal to Thomas and the OT phrase "my Lord and my God", which is only used once in Psalm 35, you are totally ignoring the Lord's own words when He told Mary He had yet to ascent to her Father and His Father and her God and His God. So you see Believer your one example is overwhelming defeated by the Lord's own words.
And BTW, why should I listen to you? You belong to a religion that denies God's inerrant word and promotes idol worship and socerery by communicating with the dead.
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Believer
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So, like all Catholics you are not willing to actually discuss what is recorded in God's word and simply denigrate those who disagree with you. Also you keep adding to what is in the Bible. Hebrews does not tell us that Jesus was one nature with the God.
As to your appeal to Thomas and the OT phrase "my Lord and my God", which is only used once in Psalm 35, you are totally ignoring the Lord's own words when He told Mary He had yet to ascent to her Father and His Father and her God and His God. So you see Believer your one example is overwhelming defeated by the Lord's own words.
No surprise you don't want to answer my excellent point. How can Jesus not have a divine nature? How could He be a man before man was created? Adam is the first man, the first being who possessed a human nature. Unless you can provide a good answer to this, it's a valid point in this discussion. Maybe there's more to it all then you currently believe. What I point out here is only common sense, no fancy Greek theosophy or whatever.
And BTW, why should I listen to you? You belong to a religion that denies God's inerrant word and promotes idol worship and socerery by communicating with the dead.
If you understood what I believe, then you wouldn't say insane things like this. Firstly, idol worship involves worshipping idols. Secondly, Catholics used to burn sorcerers because of their extreme heresy, how ironic. Sorcerers use dark magic to conjure up people, they're in league with the devil. Such ignorance of Catholicism! Aineo, maybe you should research some more. I really expect more intelligence and knowledge from a man who claims to know and understand but reject.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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I have answered your question concerning how the Son (not Jesus the man) preexisted. The Son preexisted as God's word, which became flesh. Now why are you avoiding discussing Peter's sermon in Acts 2? Come on Believer, since you say you accept the Bible as true then lets discuss the whole Bible.
What is idol worship? Serving images and the entities those images represent. There isn't a Catholic/Orthodox Church on the planet that does not have at least one image of a dead human being in it. Even your last Pope was photographed kneeling before images of Mary, which is a violation of God's law.
What is idol worship? Serving images and the entities those images represent. There isn't a Catholic/Orthodox Church on the planet that does not have at least one image of a dead human being in it. Even your last Pope was photographed kneeling before images of Mary, which is a violation of God's law.
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Believer
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I have answered your question concerning how the Son (not Jesus the man) preexisted. The Son preexisted as God's word, which became flesh. Now why are you avoiding discussing Peter's sermon in Acts 2? Come on Believer, since you say you accept the Bible as true then lets discuss the whole Bible.
The Son is Jesus, you know that. Jesus was the Son, a divine being [one in being with the Father, through Him all things were made]*, who assumed a human nature and became man. He existed, quite plainly, in the form of God. Abstract on that as you like. If Jesus were an exact representation of the Father it's because they share the same divine nature. The Son wasn't a human being, He assumed this nature later when He became incarnate.
So, according to you, was Jesus eternally with the Father, or is He a created being? What is His nature, exactly?
*exerpt from the Nicene Creed
What is idol worship? Serving images and the entities those images represent. There isn't a Catholic/Orthodox Church on the planet that does not have at least one image of a dead human being in it. Even your last Pope was photographed kneeling before images of Mary, which is a violation of God's law.
These people aren't being worshipped. This attests to your lack of understanding. How can you expect me to take you seriously? Ya don't seem to understand.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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You have yet to establish the preexistence of the Son in some form other than a concept of God for the redemption of mankind, which is probably why you refuse to discuss Acts 2.
The Nicene Creed is not Scripture.
Exodus 20:4-6
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. NAS
I understand that Catholics serve those the images represent, which is part of God's definition of idol worship. Shall I post those instructions from the Marian apparitions where Mary tells her worshippers to serve her and not her Son?
Now, are you going to discuss the whole word of God or simply parrot what you have been taught?
The Nicene Creed is not Scripture.
Exodus 20:4-6
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. NAS
I understand that Catholics serve those the images represent, which is part of God's definition of idol worship. Shall I post those instructions from the Marian apparitions where Mary tells her worshippers to serve her and not her Son?
Now, are you going to discuss the whole word of God or simply parrot what you have been taught?
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Believer
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You have yet to establish the preexistence of the Son in some form other than a concept of God for the redemption of mankind, which is probably why you refuse to discuss Acts 2.
So Jesus was a concept of God? Elaborate please. So He wasn't even an existing being but a concept? Well, He wasn't always man in nature before man existed. You're stuck with that to reckon with. He must have had a nature, divine if He existed in the form of God and preexisted man.
If you ask me to discuss Acts 2 again, that's going to tick me off, okay. Now I've commented on that time and time again. The argument is more relevant in Phillipians 2 because Peter says very little about Jesus's preexistence and form. Peter was emphasizing on Jesus's role on earth.
The Nicene Creed is not Scripture.
It is derived from scripture, under the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. God would ensure that His Church wouldn't become some heretical entity that would damn many people with obsene heresies. So, you sould have faith.
I understand that Catholics serve those the images represent, which is part of God's definition of idol worship. Shall I post those instructions from the Marian apparitions where Mary tells her worshippers to serve her and not her Son?
Now, are you going to discuss the whole word of God or simply parrot what you have been taught?
You're parroting th same ignorant anti-Catholic propaganda that you've been brainwashed with. I've explained this before to you. You don't worship and serve these saints like gods, okay. You ask them to pray for you, hopefully they'll hear our prayers. They're not omnipresent like Jesus, why Jesus would be omnipresent if He weren't God. then again, time is different in the heveanly realms so perhaps they hear our intercessions. It all goes bck to the argument: We pray for our brothers in this world and ask those in heaven to pray for us. Saints praying for us is a good thing. Don't underestimate prayer. Those in Heaven are alive in Christ.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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Then you can get ticked off, since unless and until you are willing to actually discuss God's word I will continue to bring Acts 2 into any discussion involving the Trinity.
How can Jesus be the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God?
What about John 1:1
He must have had a divine nature? Come on Believer, Scripture does not tell us that Jesus' nature was divine. Scripture does tell us that the Father was in Jesus, which is how Jesus was able to perform miracles and why He knew what others were thinking.
I was not taught anything about Catholicism. My Christian education did not involve anti-Catholic teachers. I am anti-Catholicism based on what God's word tells us about communicating with the dead, the use of images in the church, transubstantiation, and etc. If you want to point the finger at anyone for my stance on Catholicism then point it at RomeSweetHome whose posts on this message board resulted in my investigating Catholicism and the Orthodox faiths.
Now, if you are not going to discuss God's word and appeal to Rome and the traditions of men I will terminate this thread. The only way you will change my mind is with God's word taken in context and taken as a complete book, not just a select few Scriptures plus Aristotelian and Platonic philosophy.
How can Jesus be the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God?
What about John 1:1
He must have had a divine nature? Come on Believer, Scripture does not tell us that Jesus' nature was divine. Scripture does tell us that the Father was in Jesus, which is how Jesus was able to perform miracles and why He knew what others were thinking.
I was not taught anything about Catholicism. My Christian education did not involve anti-Catholic teachers. I am anti-Catholicism based on what God's word tells us about communicating with the dead, the use of images in the church, transubstantiation, and etc. If you want to point the finger at anyone for my stance on Catholicism then point it at RomeSweetHome whose posts on this message board resulted in my investigating Catholicism and the Orthodox faiths.
Now, if you are not going to discuss God's word and appeal to Rome and the traditions of men I will terminate this thread. The only way you will change my mind is with God's word taken in context and taken as a complete book, not just a select few Scriptures plus Aristotelian and Platonic philosophy.
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Believer
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Now, if you are not going to discuss God's word and appeal to Rome and the traditions of men I will terminate this thread. The only way you will change my mind is with God's word taken in context and taken as a complete book, not just a select few Scriptures plus Aristotelian and Platonic philosophy.
That would be tyrannical, Aineo, to turn this into some anti-catholic opprotunity. This thread applies to what almost all Protestants likewise believe, that Jesus has a divine nature. I have no idea why I find myself alone in these threads.
Then you can get ticked off, since unless and until you are willing to actually discuss God's word I will continue to bring Acts 2 into any discussion involving the Trinity.
Well, note that I commented on Acts 2 multiple times. You know how I feel about it.
Aineo's Link wrote:...Was it a pre-existing person? Or was it the self-expressive activity of God, the Father, His eternal plan?...
We trust that by now the reader knows that Jesus did not pre-exist his birth and that he was not with God in Genesis 1:1. We also trust that the reader understands that the logos of John 1:1 is not identical to “Jesus.”
You've had the offensive, now my turn. You're listening to the interpretations of a man and his own theories about Jesus. That's alot of abstracting on what the Logos is from John 1:1. Scripture absolutely does not support what is said on that site about Jesus.
Hebrews 1:1-2
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
Clearly the "Son" as the divine Jesus spoke to us and was made the heir of all things, and through Him all was created. That was surprisingly easy, Aineo how are you going to defend this now? You've seen passage this in my sig. every time I say something.
He must have had a divine nature? Come on Believer, Scripture does not tell us that Jesus' nature was divine. Scripture does tell us that the Father was in Jesus, which is how Jesus was able to perform miracles and why He knew what others were thinking.
Oh, if the Son is the preexistent Jesus and Hebrews 1:1-2 is true, yes Jesus does have a divine nature. He wasn't a man, that would be very impossible.
I was not taught anything about Catholicism. My Christian education did not involve anti-Catholic teachers. I am anti-Catholicism based on what God's word tells us about communicating with the dead, the use of images in the church, transubstantiation, and etc. If you want to point the finger at anyone for my stance on Catholicism then point it at RomeSweetHome whose posts on this message board resulted in my investigating Catholicism and the Orthodox faiths.
Don't worry about Rome, okay, he musn't have explained things correctly. Some of what you believe is just plain wrong.
Let's continue with Hebrews for a moment
Hebrews 1:3-10
3 who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 as far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say: "You are my son; this day I have begotten you"? Or again: "I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me"?
6 And again, when he leads the first-born into the world, he says: "Let all the angels of God worship him."
7 Of the angels he says: "He makes his angels winds and his ministers a fiery flame";
8 but of the Son: "Your throne, O God, stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions";
10 and: "At the beginning, O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands.
Verse 3 actually is speaking of the Lord Jesus. Jesus is called "God" here, plainly. Jesus and the Father are both "God". Jesus the divine being is far superior to angels. What you believe cannot possible hold up against this.
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
-Hebrews 1:1-2
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Aineo
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- Location: Grand Junction, Colorado
To bad you refuse to address questions and have decided you have authority on this board you do not have. The fact you refuse to discuss Peter's sermon only demonstrates you refuse to accept God's word as inerrant and the final authority on matters of faith.
Acts 2:14-19
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea, and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give heed to my words. 15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17'And it shall be in the last days,' God says,
'That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even upon My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.
19'And I will grant wonders in the sky above,
NAS
Do yourself a favor and study the above and when you are ready to discuss the whole sermon then maybe we can both learn something. But until you do this thread is closed.
Acts 2:14-19
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea, and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give heed to my words. 15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17'And it shall be in the last days,' God says,
'That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even upon My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.
19'And I will grant wonders in the sky above,
NAS
Do yourself a favor and study the above and when you are ready to discuss the whole sermon then maybe we can both learn something. But until you do this thread is closed.
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