Is the Holy Spirit the 3rd person of the Trinity?

[Aineo]

The answer is no. The Holy Spirit is another name for God.

In John's gospel we read this account of Jesus' baptism:

John 1:29-34

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 "This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' 31 "And I did not recognize Him, but in order that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water." 32 And John bore witness saying, "I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' 34 "And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God." NAS

Now jump to John 14.

John 14:9-10
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. NAS

Now read Jesus prayer in John 17. Who is conspicuous by His absence in this prayer? The Holy Spirit is not mentioned, however Jesus repeats that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father.

John 17:20-21
20 "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.
NAS

Even if you want to believe that John 17 is a private conversation between the Father and the Son, it is inconceivable that this conversation does not even hint at the promised Helper or Comforter Jesus promised to send in John 14:16, 26, 15:26, and 16:7.

[Believer]

So you don't believe in the Trinity, Aineo?
I don't get it. That's an essential Christian doctrine.

The Comforter who Christ promised he would send at Pentecost, this was God the Holy Spirit. Have you heard of the story from acts where a man didn't give his share of money to the community and the Spirit struck him dead? Jesus was serious about blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

[Aineo]

So you don't believe in the Trinity, Aineo?
I don't get it. That's an essential Christian doctrine.

According to who? Men or God?

The Comforter who Christ promised he would send at Pentecost, this was God the Holy Spirit. Have you heard of the story from acts where a man didn't give his share of money to the community and the Spirit struck him dead? Jesus was serious about blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

You are referring to Ananias and his wife Sapphira, and yes I know the story well. As to the comforter that Jesus told the apostles He would send, if you read what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit, He said the Holy Spirit would procede from the Father. Not that the Holy Spirit is another person in a Godhead.

[Aineo]

Here are a couple threads going on the Trinity. After years of accepting the Trinity I found some Scriptures that show this is a false doctrine. Now, if you would like to contribute to these threads and answer the questions others have refused to answer maybe we can discern God's truth.

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

[Believer]

If the evidence were so blatant that the Holy Spirit wasn't the thrid person of the Trinity, many Christians would have abandoned the idea. What makes you and your interpretations so special? This is how cults form, Aineo. The Spirit has the nature of God and has personality. You could pray to Him for guidance. He is God residing in those who believe in Christ. be careful that you aren't blaspheming God.

Isaiah 63:11
Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

The Holy Spirit here isn't just God's presence, this is God as the Holy Spirit. The Trinity isn't laid down in gold, you just have to see this through evidences.

[Aineo]

The Holy Spirit is also the "My Spirit" of the OT. Have you taken the time to study all the instances where God's inspired servants use "My Spirit" for the Holy Spirit?

There is only one God, not 3 persons in one God or three gods in the one God. Now, I asked a couple questions in my opening post are you going to answer them or just ignore them?

[Believer]

Christ spoke of the Father and of the Holy Spirit at different points. You're argument just isn't strong enough or is convincing enough to suggest the Holy Spirit is not a part of the Trinity. The two selections from Paul are about the ressurection of the dead. Souls don't sleep. The body is "asleep" until it rises again.

God's Holy Spirit is the presence of God, where did I deny this? So is Jesus. To be near Christ is to be near God. Jesus is the Father's Son as the Spirit is the Father's Spirit. They proceed from the Father.


What do you think about this verse?
Matthew 28:19
Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

[Aineo]

Your arguments are based on what? Philosophy or God's word?

Matthew 28:19 is thought to be a spurious addition to Matthew based not only on the internal evidence of the NT, but manuscript evidence.

According to F.C. Conybeare, "Eusebius cites this text again and again in his works written between 300 and 336, namely in his long commentaries on the Psalms, on Isaiah, his Demonstratio Evangelica, his Theophany ...in his famous history of the Church, and in his panegyric of the emperor Constantine. I have, after a moderate search in these works of Eusebius, found eighteen citations of Matthew xxviii. 19, and always in the following form: "

"Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you."
http://jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/ca ... w2819.html

I am sure you know who Eusebius is. Also basing a doctrine of 1 verse is as you pointed out a tactic of cults.

Human bodies do not sleep when they die they decompose. You know dust to dust.

The Son did not procede from the Father, the Son was born of a woman.

Now, as to what I posted in the OP your one line dismissal only indicates you cannot address God's word since traditions are what drives Catholicism.

[Believer]

Your arguments are based on what? Philosophy or God's word?

A little of both. Nothing's being made up. The evidences are real.

Matthew 28:19 is thought to be a spurious addition to Matthew based not only on the internal evidence of the NT, but manuscript evidence.

Quite a bit of conjecture. Then perhaps other things in the Gospels are false, too. Maybe Jesus and the Father aren't one, John's Gospel was written pretty late. The Gnostics might have influenced it. So on.

It's like you just don't want to believe the Holy Spirit is the Third Person. That's very weird. It would seem like you'd love to rejoin mainstream Christianity.

The Son did not procede from the Father, the Son was born of a woman.

And before this? The Son is eternal, correct?
That argument of mine was strong.

Now, as to what I posted in the OP your one line dismissal only indicates you cannot address God's word since traditions are what drives Catholicism.

Traditions are traditions. They don't alter the core doctrine. So you can create your own interpretations and doctrine, and not question why so many people don't have the same sudden epiphany as you? Something's real fishy here. The evidences, from my and many others' perspective, points to the existence of the Holy Spirit. That line from Matthew, that's a piece of the scripture as much as any other line from scripture. It's just not valid because it doesn't fit your hypothesis.

[Aineo]

Your argument is based on a total lack of Biblical truth, which is why I now reject the Trinity as a false doctrine developed by Greeks who were influenced by the pagan backgrounds, Greek philosophy (including Gnosticism, where do you think the ascension of Mary came from), and lack of knowledge concerning the foundation of Christianity.

Tell me Believer, have you read in John 17:3 where Jesus says to the Father that He is the only true God, and in 1 Corinthians 8:6 Paul writes that for us (Christians) there is but one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ?

In order to defend the Trinity you have to label both the Lord and Paul liars.

Here are a couple more you need to respond to:

Ephesians 4:4-8
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,

"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men."
NAS

1 Timothy 2:3-7
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NAS

Catholicism claims Peter at its first Pope. Here is how Peter describes the Lord on the day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:22-24

22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. NAS

Either Peter lied or he was pulling a bait and switch con. Especially in view of what he said in Acts 5:

Acts 5:28-32
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." NAS

Paul expands on this in Philippians:

Philippians 2:1-11
2:1 If therefore there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NAS

The Trinity is based on a lack of understanding of how John used the term "logos". "In the beginning was the Word (logos)". The word of God is not a person any more than your words are a person. God's word was with Him in the beginning and was with Him and is Him just as your words are with you and are you. Have you ever heard of Philo of Alexandria? He was a Jewish philosopher that died about 50 A.D. John borrowed Philo's "logos" so his Greek readers could understand Christian monotheism. John's Jewish readers already understood that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies that concerned a man who is the seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15), the seed of Abraham (Genesis 22:17-18), God's prophesied "servant", and etc.

Numbers 23:19
9 "God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
NAS

Jesus' favorite title for Himself was the Son of Man, which He used 160 times vs. only 4 uses of the Son of God.

Mainline Christianity needs to rethink their position since Jesus said "many are called but few are chosen" and:

Matthew 7:21-22
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
NAS

Deuteronomy 5:7-10
7'You shall have no other gods before Me.

8'You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 9'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. NAS

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! NAS

I will take God's word over a tradition of man any day of the week.

[Believer]

Your argument is based on a total lack of Biblical truth, which is why I now reject the Trinity as a false doctrine developed by Greeks who were influenced by the pagan backgrounds, Greek philosophy (including Gnosticism, where do you think the ascension of Mary came from), and lack of knowledge concerning the foundation of Christianity.

Mary ascending isn't' a Gnostic belief. What strikes me as influenced by Greek platonists and Gnostics is the Gospel of John. It was also written much later than the other Gospels. With your line of thinking, it would seen contradictory to accept John as scripture. Paul, also being a Greek, could have had Hellenistic influences too. We could go on.


Numbers 11:25
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took of the Spirit that was on him and put the Spirit on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again.

Zechariah 4:6
So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.

Zechariah 7:12
They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.

The other examples that I gave are sufficient and satisfying for me and many other Christians. Why these aren't acceptable for you is a mystery.
Why you want to reject Matthew 28:19 shows you don't want to believe in the Trinity. What external force would want to sow such discord and heresy? There's no reason why the Trinity should be done away with. The evidences are there. So to say I have a total lack of biblical evidence is a total lie. I thought you believed Jesus was God, but I guess this argument isn't just about the Holy Spirit, huh? Because the Son has evidences in the OT and NT also.
The Trinitarian belief isn't some pagan influence, that's nonsense and buying into the whole pagan mystery cults thing will have you saying the whole Christian faith is composed of pagan influences, soon enough! The dying and ressurecting God is a commom mystery cult theme, doesn that mean we're all pagans?

Tell me Believer, have you read in John 17:3 where Jesus says to the Father that He is the only true God, and in 1 Corinthians 8:6 Paul writes that for us (Christians) there is but one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ?

Jesus forgave people's sins. Only God Himself can forgive sins. remember that verse? The Jews wanted to kill Jesus over and over again because of His blasphemous claims to be God. Although He may not have said it specifically that he was God, he inferred it many times and would never say that he wasn't God. You'd think if everyone though you were God incarnate, that you'd be like "Hell no!" The argument you're presenting here just isn't self-sustaining.

Numbers 23:19
9 "God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Good verse. Muslims presented me with these arguments a few years ago on this site, it's so odd they must exist between us.
Okay, Jesus is God AS a Son of Man. Jesus isn't a son of Adam like us. That's why He had a virgin birth. Such is the way for God to enter this world. Jesus, although we was fully human and referred to in places as a man, he was also fully divine. The divine nature accounting for many things about Him. He wasn't a liar or neeeding to repent because he isn't a son of Adam. He is the Son of God.

I'd rather believe in God and who God is than to make conclusions that nobody else here is buying into, and thinking I had some great epiphany.

[Aineo]

How many Spirits of God are there? Just one?

Revelation 3:1
3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:

He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. NAS

Based on Ecclesiastes 12:7 I can make a good argument that all the spirits of men are also the spirits of God.

So you are going to dismiss out of hand what one of your ECF's wrote. I have found this to be true when a non-Catholic can show Catholics your ECF's did not teach transubstantiation in the Eucharist. You prefer to take later interpretations not only of the Bible but the writings of these ECF's. However, starting with Paul's sermon in Acts 3 and all instances that follow where baptism is mentioned the phrase is "in Jesus' name". So the overwhelming evidence is Matthew 28:19 is a gloss. However, since baptismal regeneration is not Biblical truth the words used are immaterial.

Many glosses and additions to Scripture have been uncovered by comparing all available manuscripts. 1 John 5:7-8 as found in the TR is one of the best documented additions to Scripture, which is why it is vital that we study the NT in light of the OT.

Catholics just love to quote St. Irenaeus as a defender of the true faith against Gnosticism while at the same time ignoring that John had to deal with this heresy before he died. So John took Greek philosophical terms like "logos" and used them to teach God's truth.

The difference between Paul and other Hellenistic Jews like Philo is Paul was a Pharisee or a doctor of the Law and the prophets. Paul understood how the Lord fulfilled the Messianic prophesies concerning the suffering Messiah and would fulfill the Messianic prophesies concerning the conquering Messiah.

The ascension of Mary is nothing more than the Ascension of Sophia dressed up in pseudo-Christian garb. The Marian doctrines also parallel the Isis/Osiris/Horus Egyptian mythology. God does not have a mother and there is no queen of heaven.

The reason I now reject your examples is they contradict the foundation of Christianity which is the apostles and the prophets and they only show that men have ignored Peter's warning and have interpreted what the Holy Spirit (who is a manifestation of God) inspired the apostles and the prophets to communicate to all men of all generations in all nations of the earth.

[Believer]

How many Spirits of God are there? Just one?

Revelation 3:1
3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:

He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. NAS

Based on Ecclesiastes 12:7 I can make a good argument that all the spirits of men are also the spirits of God.

The "Seven spirits of God" is an allusion to the Zoroastrian belief of the 7 Amesha Spentas, or seven emanations of God. yeah, I have no idea why that was included in Revelations. Perhaps it meant 7 archangels, and that's just a seperate convergent belief.

A spirit is just a name for a spiritual being. We have spirits. Ghosts are spirits. Demons are spirits. Angels are spirits. God is the Holy Spirit, which is God manifested as the Spirit, true. This Holy Spirit is interesting, and interesting how it's described in various verses. It woulod seem that there's more to the Spirit than just an active force of God, like what JW's believe. Even Jews believe this is God immanent vs God transcendant. That's a pre-trinitarian idea. There's something too the Spirit. Skipping around this and denyiong support for thsi in scripture as added stuff, that's kinda weak. Why do you want to dance around the idea of the Trinity? I would like for you to tell me personally what about the Trinmity bothers you? because it's a Mystery? Mystery that's capitalized like that doesn't mean a cheap excuse for I dunno, it means a truely divine Mystery.

Transubstantiation and all that Catholic jargon I'm sure deserves it's own thread.

I KNOW that John wasn't a Gnostic and Paul wasn't a Hellenist but a hard core Jew. Just as I know the Trinity isn't some pagan influenced concept, because there is evidence for it in the Bible. There are rational explanations for various things and supposed contradictions. Picking what ya like cause it sounds right to you isn't the way to go about Christianity, or religion in general.

The reason I now reject your examples is they contradict the foundation of Christianity which is the apostles and the prophets and they only show that men have ignored Peter's warning and have interpreted what the Holy Spirit (who is a manifestation of God) inspired the apostles and the prophets to communicate to all men of all generations in all nations of the earth.

So many Christians don't feel this way. I remain quite unconvinced that the Trinity is a false doctrine. Are you so sure that I and the rest of us here are living in blindness? You don't think we haven't asked the same questions "Is the Trinity for real??" All Christians ponder over it at some point. The evidences are there, it's real. Sure there's a little philosophy thrown in to tie it all together.

[Aineo]

Have you asked an Orthodox Jew who the Holy Spirit is? We have a member who is answering questions in the Judaism Forum. So why don't we ask him your question about the Holy Spirit?

You posted that God, the angels, and etc. are spirit, so what you are telling me is that God who is spirit has a seperate and independent spirit? Do you know how ludicrous this sounds?

Since you want to compare the seven spirits of God to Zoroastrian belief then why ignore the obvious comparison between your concept of Mary and Isis/Horus? All Catholicism had to do was rename pagan Isis temples that had images of Isis holding her infant son Horus and they had churches named the immaculate conception.

The Bible convinced me the Trinity is a false doctrine for the reasons I have posted, reasons that all Trinitarians either avoid and try to interpret away. Why would Muslims believe that a merciful god would tell them to lie, extort, and murder? Because they are ingrained with a belief from the cradle forward and never question what they are taught. In my discussions with Trinitarians most of them simply parrot what can be found in commentary after commentary most of which I read years ago along with all the other interpretations of God's word that back up the doctrine of the Trinity.

Jehova's Witnesses are just as wrong as Catholicism is.

[Believer]

God's Holy Spirit is the presence of God, where did I deny this? So is Jesus. To be near Christ is to be near God. Jesus is the Father's Son as the Spirit is the Father's Spirit. They proceed from the Father.

That isn't a bad argument.

Matthew 28:19
Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

That isn't a bad verse. It's as valid as any other verse from the Bible.

Ah, don't come with all that paganism stuff. That must mean a dying and ressurecting Jesus is a borrowed concept too, right? Prophecy would say otherwise.

The Catholic Bible has a strong prophecy in it for Christ, where it's stated that this just one boasts that God is His Father, and that He's the Son of God.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/wisdom/wisdom2.htm

So prophecy can overcome even the biggest pagan claims, hope it works that way. I don't even know how the Trinity is a pagan idea.

[Aineo]

You have referred to prophesies a couple of times in your prior post. Have you actually read all the Messianic prophecies? It was those prophesies that convinced me the Trinity is a false doctrine. The death and resurrection of the Lord has no comparison in pagan mythology, but the Madonna and child does, as does transubstantiation.

The Book of Wisdom is a good book to read, but it is not Scripture. Why not read Proverbs 8?

The Holy Spirit is the presence of God because the Holy Spirit is God (not another person in the Godhead). The Son although not God did proceed from the Father first as a thought, then as His predestined plan for the redemption of mankind and finally as the man Jesus Christ born of a human woman who had the same human nature as all of us.

[Believer]

You have referred to prophesies a couple of times in your prior post. Have you actually read all the Messianic prophecies? It was those prophesies that convinced me the Trinity is a false doctrine. The death and resurrection of the Lord has no comparison in pagan mythology, but the Madonna and child does, as does transubstantiation.

Unlike you, I don't declare prophecies and evidence as false made-up stuff that was put in the Bible. That's an all time weak argument.
Jesus's virgin birth is a testament to His divine origins. Jesus is God as a Son of Man, the Son of God.

The Madonna and child...so Mary never held Jesus?
Transubstantiation is based on the Last Supper, it's not of pagan origins.

The Book of Wisdom is a good book to read, but it is not Scripture. Why not read Proverbs 8?

Why, because Martin Luther didn't accept it? It's part of the Canon of the Church for a very long time, and it porecedes Christ's life. It's a shock tha tyou would slough off such a great prophecy! Jesus boasts that God is His Father, and that He is the Son of God!

The Holy Spirit is the presence of God because the Holy Spirit is God (not another person in the Godhead). The Son although not God did proceed from the Father first as a thought, then as His predestined plan for the redemption of mankind and finally as the man Jesus Christ born of a human woman who had the same human nature as all of us.

No scriptural evidence states that Jesus was a thought in the Father's mind.
Jesus was not conquered by death because he was God, another evidence that Jesus is divine is the ressurection of Christ itself!


John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,

John 15:26-27
"When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.
And you also testify, because you have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

John 16:15
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.

The Spirit proceeds from the Father and is referred to as "he", a personality.
All that is the Father's is the Son's. The Son will judge all of us at the end. The Son could forgive sins Himself, only God could do this.
the scriptures are rich with evidences for the Trinity.

[Aineo]

Unlike you, I don't declare prophecies and evidence as false made-up stuff that was put in the Bible. That's an all time weak argument.
Jesus's virgin birth is a testament to His divine origins. Jesus is God as a Son of Man, the Son of God.

Show me one post where I stated that any prophecy was false made-up stuff. The virgin birth in no way indicates that Jesus is God. It tells us that a virgin would conceive.

The Madonna and child...so Mary never held Jesus?

Mary is the mother of Jesus, but not the mother of God. Your reverence for dead people through the use of images violates God's commandments.

Transubstantiation is based on the Last Supper, it's not of pagan origins.

The Last Supper was instituted as a remembrance of the Lord's death, not as a continued sacrifice where we eat and drink the actual blood of the Lord.

The Book of Wisdom is a good book to read, but it is not Scripture. Why not read Proverbs 8?

Why, because Martin Luther didn't accept it? It's part of the Canon of the Church for a very long time, and it porecedes Christ's life. It's a shock tha tyou would slough off such a great prophecy! Jesus boasts that God is His Father, and that He is the Son of God!

The Jews were given the authority of the OT not pagan influenced Greeks. Jesus said:

Matthew 23:34-36
34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.
NAS

Wisdom was not even written until sometime between 120 B.C. and 100 B.C. by a Hellenistic Jew and long after the death of Zechariah.

The Holy Spirit is the presence of God because the Holy Spirit is God (not another person in the Godhead). The Son although not God did proceed from the Father first as a thought, then as His predestined plan for the redemption of mankind and finally as the man Jesus Christ born of a human woman who had the same human nature as all of us.

No scriptural evidence states that Jesus was a thought in the Father's mind.
Jesus was not conquered by death because he was God, another evidence that Jesus is divine is the ressurection of Christ itself!

For a man who values prophecy you seem to ignore it when it is convenient.

Psalms 16:10
10 For Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol;
Neither wilt Thou allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
NAS

Now have you read Acts 2, especially this part:

Acts 2:22-28

22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him,

'I was always beholding the Lord in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26'Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will abide in hope;
27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
28'Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
Thou wilt make me full of gladness with Thy presence.'
NAS

Like I posted the Messianic prophecies put the lie to your thesis and show that the Messiah is not God.

The Spirit proceeds from the Father and is referred to as "he", a personality.
All that is the Father's is the Son's. The Son will judge all of us at the end. The Son could forgive sins Himself, only God could do this.
the scriptures are rich with evidences for the Trinity.

God is also called He, so the use of the masculine pronoun for a neuter noun is not proof that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Father.

The Trinity is an invention of men.

[Believer]

Show me one post where I stated that any prophecy was false made-up stuff. The virgin birth in no way indicates that Jesus is God. It tells us that a virgin would conceive.

The selection from Wisdom and Matt 28:14, you've said there are false and invalid. Convienient, really...to seek to get rid of what challenges you're claim.

Mary is the mother of Jesus, but not the mother of God. Your reverence for dead people through the use of images violates God's commandments.

Obviously Mary isn't the literal Mother of God, since God created Mary.

The Last Supper was instituted as a remembrance of the Lord's death, not as a continued sacrifice where we eat and drink the actual blood of the Lord.

So when Jesus told his disciples to take the bread and wine, his body and blood, that wasn't literally flesh and blood. That's not what Eucharist means, it's not cannabalism.

[Believer]

The Jews were given the authority of the OT not pagan influenced Greeks. Jesus said:

Wisdom was not even written until sometime between 120 B.C. and 100 B.C. by a Hellenistic Jew and long after the death of Zechariah.

How is Wisdom a pagan-influenced scripture? In the second chapter, Jesus's entire life si vividly described in striking ways! If you were truly a Christian, that would be very acceptable and welcomed as real prophecy.

For a man who values prophecy you seem to ignore it when it is convenient.

Who said Jesus was trapped in Sheol?? He rescued the people down there, and they were freed. Then he returned to remain in the tomb until the third day. Only GOD can do this! This isn't a mortal man here.

Like I posted the Messianic prophecies put the lie to your thesis and show that the Messiah is not God.

Well, that's not what I see.

God is also called He, so the use of the masculine pronoun for a neuter noun is not proof that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Father.

The Trinity is an invention of men.

It's stated plainly that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, same as the Son. The Son proceeds from the Father.
How can everything the Father has, the Son can also have? What special relationship do they have?

[Aineo]

The Jews were given the authority of the OT not pagan influenced Greeks. Jesus said:

Wisdom was not even written until sometime between 120 B.C. and 100 B.C. by a Hellenistic Jew and long after the death of Zechariah.

How is Wisdom a pagan-influenced scripture? In the second chapter, Jesus's entire life si vividly described in striking ways! If you were truly a Christian, that would be very acceptable and welcomed as real prophecy.

If I was a real Christian? Interesting way to sidestep the words of the Lord who did not recognize any prophet between Zechariah and John the Baptist. Now as to the Wisdom of Solomon, I think it is in chapter 8 that the author writes salvation comes through wisdom not through faith in God's Messiah. There are reasons why both the Jews and those you refer to as Protestants rejected Wisdom and the other Deuterocanonical books as inspired.

For a man who values prophecy you seem to ignore it when it is convenient.

Who said Jesus was trapped in Sheol?? He rescued the people down there, and they were freed. Then he returned to remain in the tomb until the third day. Only GOD can do this! This isn't a mortal man here.

You missed the whole message of the prophecy. God did not allow His servant to suffer decay by raising Him from the dead. Show me in this prophecy that the Messiah is God.

Like I posted the Messianic prophecies put the lie to your thesis and show that the Messiah is not God.

Well, that's not what I see.

Maybe you need to actually study the Bible and not Catholic rhetoric so your mind can opened to God's truth.

God is also called He, so the use of the masculine pronoun for a neuter noun is not proof that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Father.

The Trinity is an invention of men.

It's stated plainly that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, same as the Son. The Son proceeds from the Father.
How can everything the Father has, the Son can also have? What special relationship do they have?

Well, for one the Son is the only begotten of the Father, the only man highly exalted by the Father, and the only man appointed the Father's heir. Have you studied Hebrews?

BTW, what Scripture tells you the Son proceeds from the Father? John 15:26 tells us the Helper (Holy Spirit) proceeds from the Father (not the Godhead). How can the Helper be seperate from the Father when the Spirit proceeds from the Father? According to the Trinity the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed from eternity past as co-equal members of the one God.

[Believer]

If I was a real Christian? Interesting way to sidestep the words of the Lord who did not recognize any prophet between Zechariah and John the Baptist. Now as to the Wisdom of Solomon, I think it is in chapter 8 that the author writes salvation comes through wisdom not through faith in God's Messiah. There are reasons why both the Jews and those you refer to as Protestants rejected Wisdom and the other Deuterocanonical books as inspired.

There's no proof that God's prophetic voice isn't present in scriptures between Zechariah and John the Baptist. John the Baptist is the last prophet, so certainly prophets and propecy could exist before John.
Again, bottom half of Wisdom 2 defines what is in the Gospels, pretty much. It describes Jesus is astonishing ways. That's very amazing. You want to destroy any validity to this. This alone is a testament to how lost you are.

You missed the whole message of the prophecy. God did not allow His servant to suffer decay by raising Him from the dead. Show me in this prophecy that the Messiah is God.

Tell me, could a mortal man do all that Jesus could do? Could a mortal man free the captives held in the darkness (sheol), a common prophetic theme concerning the Messiah. God is their Savior, that's also a common prophetic theme associated. Jesus is the Lord and Savior.

Maybe you need to actually study the Bible and not Catholic rhetoric so your mind can opened to God's truth.

Most of the Prostants here also accept the Trinity. Maybe there's more to it. Don't be so arrogant.

Well, for one the Son is the only begotten of the Father, the only man highly exalted by the Father, and the only man appointed the Father's heir. Have you studied Hebrews?

So is this a mortal man like you and I? A super human? An angel? Or God in nature? Can a man truly be God's divine Son? Can a man be our Lord in Heaven and sit at the Father's right hand? All that the Father has the Son has. Etc. The arguments attack and destroy the idea that Jesus is not divine.

BTW, what Scripture tells you the Son proceeds from the Father? John 15:26 tells us the Helper (Holy Spirit) proceeds from the Father (not the Godhead). How can the Helper be seperate from the Father when the Spirit proceeds from the Father? According to the Trinity the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed from eternity past as co-equal members of the one God.

Jesus said he came from the FAther, and that he will return to Him.

The Father IS the Godhead. God is united, they're not seperate entites. This isn't Mormonism. God is manifested and exists as the Father, Son, and Spirit. Each of these "personalities" has the supreme sentience and mind of God, and their soul is God. They converse with one another like we do in our mind. Does God have split-personality disorder? no, He is very ordered and can exist this way. truly it's a Mystery, that I believe is the Trinity. We can philosophize about it, but it's ultimately a Mystery. You should see that Jesus isn't another man and the Spirit isn't some active fore or mere prescence alone. You should have FAITH!

[Aineo]

Could a mortal man do what Jesus did? Yes, if God gave him the authority, which is how Jesus did and taught all He did and taught.

What is arrogant about exposing error? You are committing a logical falacy by appealing to the majority, especially since the Kingdom of God is not a democracy.

As to your comment concerning what Jesus said about Zecheriah, what I find odd is how others and you have simply dismissed the Lord's words when it is convenient to do so instead of trying to understand why He said what He said. For instance Jesus said there is "only one true God". Now why should I believe men and not the Lord?

The only proof I need that there was no prophet in Israel between Zechariah and John the Baptist is the Palestinian canon, which excluded the books and portions of books found in the Septuagint since as I posted God gave the Jews authority over the OT and in view of who wrote the NT He extended that authority to the whole canon.

[Believer]

What is arrogant about exposing error? You are committing a logical falacy by appealing to the majority, especially since the Kingdom of God is not a democracy.

because it's not an error. You're afraid to believe it. I'm not the one denying the validity of passages for the Trinity and Christ's Divinity. Interpration of passages plays another role. Mine are good, and sufficient for me to believe in the outrageous concept of the Trinity. If I were merely parroting the age ole traditions then perhaps I wouldn't speak of it as "outrageous" or even say what I just said in this sentence.

The majority of Christians should be saved if they practice and live by the faith. The minority of Christian-by-name-only people who live in sin and sub-christian heretics and cultists will not be with Jesus. People who fail to know Jesus will not be known and accepted by Him.

As to your comment concerning what Jesus said about Zecheriah, what I find odd is how others and you have simply dismissed the Lord's words when it is convenient to do so instead of trying to understand why He said what He said. For instance Jesus said there is "only one true God". Now why should I believe men and not the Lord?

So, I don't believe in one true God? That's what I believe in. Read other places and other verses. Jesus has divine attributes. maybe we should discuss this philosophically for a while.

Could a mortal man do what Jesus did? Yes, if God gave him the authority, which is how Jesus did and taught all He did and taught.

Christ Himself assured the man next to Him on the cross that he would have eternal life. Can a mortal man grant another eternal life? Can one mortal man take another's sins? Can another mortal man boast that God is his Father? No, absolutely not. Other seemingly small passages like these are not to be underestimated. There's alot unaccounted for. God only trusts Himself to do a God's job...to be the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. Jesus will rule over us after the Final Judgement. Mortal man? I think not.

The only proof I need that there was no prophet in Israel between Zechariah and John the Baptist is the Palestinian canon, which excluded the books and portions of books found in the Septuagint since as I posted God gave the Jews authority over the OT and in view of who wrote the NT He extended that authority to the whole canon.

Then Paul, a Hellenistic Jew, must be riddled with Greek pagan influences and lies. That's not true, even you believe that. So that's not a strong argument. Wisdom was accepted by the Jews when the early Christians compiled the Canon. That was part of the Old Testament. So the Jews(in Germany at least) changed their canon when Martin Luther adopted the Jew's OT books in the 15th century. Really, which set of Jews was right or wrong here? None. Basing an argument on this isn't the greatest thing to do.

[Believer]

How do you interpret my signature verse?

[Aineo]

Alexandrian Jews compiled the Septuagint, which included books not found in the Palestinian canon. What is interesting about the books that are in the Septuagint that are not in the Palestinian canon is they are attributed to Alexandrian Jews.

Now, I am going to put on my Administrators hat and remind you that we have rules for this forum. Here are a couple I think I need to remind you to adhere to:

4. No slandering other posters or dealing in personalities. Some posters hold strong opinions about topics under discussion however, resorting to name calling or derogatory remarks aimed on any poster will not be tolerated. Take you personal differences to emails or private messages. Posting private communications or alluding to such communications on any public forum will be grounds for deactivation of your account and the deletion of your post.

7. No “I’m a better person than you are”. Our members run the gambit from people of faith to atheists. Keep this is mind and refrain from lifting yourself above all others in knowledge, value, orthodoxy, etc. For our Christian members remember there are many faiths but only One Lord, your denomination, doctrine, or understanding of the Bible may not be universally accepted by others.

If you cannot discuss what you believe vs. what I believe without resorting to comments like this, "The minority of Christian-by-name-only people who live in sin and sub-christian heretics and cultists will not be with Jesus" then I suggest you take you rhetoric to Catholic Defenders of the Faith. I can give you their url if you like.

In view of your post I wonder if you believe and follow your first Pope's teaching found in 2 Peter.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. NAS

Your interpretations of Scritpure are immaterial to God's truth.

You are correct that those Christians who live by faith in the Lord will be the ones to see the Lord and I will add rule with Him. On the other hand those who live by faith in doctrines that contradict God's truth will probably not see the Lord except to be judged and excluded from His Kingdom.

Christ Himself assured the man next to Him on the cross that he would have eternal life. Can a mortal man grant another eternal life? Can one mortal man take another's sins? Can another mortal man boast that God is his Father? No, absolutely not. Other seemingly small passages like these are not to be underestimated. There's alot unaccounted for. God only trusts Himself to do a God's job...to be the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. Jesus will rule over us after the Final Judgement. Mortal man? I think not.

It seems you would rather parrot what you have been taught than actually read and study God’s word. Peter’s sermon recorded in Act 2 addresses a lot of what you refuse to accept as God’s truth.

Acts 2:22-36
22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him,

'I was always beholding the Lord in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 'Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will abide in hope;
27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
28 'Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
Thou wilt make me full of gladness with Thy presence.'

29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:

'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet. "'
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-- this Jesus whom you crucified." NAS

In Act 5 Peter says:

Acts 5:29-32
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." NAS

So the answer to your questions is yes, a man can do all the things you refuse to believe a man can do when that man is appointed by God as His agent for the salvation who believe God instead of men.

You quoted Matthew 28:19 to prove the Trinity, but have you bothered to read the verses that precede and follow vs. 19?

Matthew 28:16-20
16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. " NAS

Now show me where Jesus ever told the apostles that He is God. The fact is you cannot and neither can any of the Protestants who also accept the Trinity. The Trinity is a result of philosophical interpretations of select passages from the Bible.

Now lets read what the apostles wrote:

John 17:1-3
17:1 These things Jesus spoke; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Thy Son, that the Son may glorify Thee, 2 even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.NAS

Romans 5:14-15
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. NAS

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

Ephesians 4:4-7
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. NAS

1 Timothy 2:3-7
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NAS

Now, no defender of the Trinity is willing to address the above Scriptures. Lets see if you will actually discuss the above without trying to interpret them or avoid the plain language understanding of what is in God's word.

As to the verses you have in your signature lets put those 2 verses in context.

Hebrews 1:1-5
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,

"Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee"?

And again,

"I will be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me"? NAS

First I do not interpret God's word, I study God's word to understand God's word therefore to understand what you put in your signature you have to take other parts of the Bible into consideration.

Peter said in Acts 2 "this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" gives us a clue that John puts this way:

John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
NAS

And Paul puts this way:

Colossians 1:15-17
15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. NAS

How did God create the heavens and the earth? He spoke (words =logos) them into existence. God's only begotten Son is God's predestined plan for the salvation of mankind and existed in the beginning as the plan, which were God's words or His creative power.

You say you want to get philosophical then how about starting with Philo of Alexandria and his use of "logos" to define Hebraic monotheism. John borrowed Philo's definition of "logos" and turned it to his advantage in order to preach one God who appointed one man to be the Savior of those who accept God's plan by faith in the man Jesus Christ.

[Alpha]

Mainline Christianity needs to rethink their position since Jesus said "many are called but few are chosen"

That verse does not imply that few are chosen because they contain a special revelation outside the bounds of the simplicity that is within Christ. Therefore, though you might disagree with some mainline Christian doctrine, that does not mean that those who follow such will not be saved.

[Aineo]

Mainline Christianity needs to rethink their position since Jesus said "many are called but few are chosen"

That verse does not imply that few are chosen because they contain a special revelation outside the bounds of the simplicity that is within Christ. Therefore, though you might disagree with some mainline Christian doctrine, that does not mean that those who follow such will not be saved.

What special revelation are you referring to? Who, according to the Lord will be saved?

Matthew 7:20-21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. NAS

Matthew 12:50
50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." NAS

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." NAS

[Believer]

Alexandrian Jews compiled the Septuagint, which included books not found in the Palestinian canon. What is interesting about the books that are in the Septuagint that are not in the Palestinian canon is they are attributed to Alexandrian Jews.

So if their Jews from Alexandria, does this make the many less Jewish than the Palestinian Jews? Is that strong enough of a comparison to suggest that Wisdom, although the prophecy in the second chapter is very strongly Christian, just ain't good enough to be God inspired?

Now, I am going to put on my Administrators hat and remind you that we have rules for this forum. Here are a couple I think I need to remind you to adhere to:

If I offended you, then forgive me. But, please don't escape the reality that you've veered from mainstream Christianity. That statment you quoted was a very generalized one, BTW.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. NAS

Your interpretations of Scritpure are immaterial to God's truth.

Very interesting to comment that I feel the same way about you and your interpretation, as do a greater majority of Christians.
Moved by the Holy Spirit, interesting. If one denied the Holy Spirit, would the Spirit remain in them.

You are correct that those Christians who live by faith in the Lord will be the ones to see the Lord and I will add rule with Him. On the other hand those who live by faith in doctrines that contradict God's truth will probably not see the Lord except to be judged and excluded from His Kingdom.

You and a small minority. Seems both of us feel strongly that the Scripture supports our claims, maybe we should look at a few other things. For instance, we have faith that God inspired and was with the men who wrote the Gospels, and we take their Gospels as truth. Would you believe that God was also with the early Church fathers who compiled the Canon and affirmed the Trinitarian doctrine? Seems it would be contradictory to deny the mainstream christian doctrine based on that reasoning. Would God let his Church fall to heresy and let heresy pollute the world?

It seems you would rather parrot what you have been taught than actually read and study God’s word. Peter’s sermon recorded in Act 2 addresses a lot of what you refuse to accept as God’s truth.

I aked you a series of strong questions!!

Acts 2:22-36
22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know

Miracles and signs, yes even the prophets worked miracles and signs because God was in them. They were only men, so they could only go so far.
Man cannot bear man's sins. God can take sins away. Man can't forgive sins, God only forgives sins. Is Jesus a man our Savior and Christ?
There are examples in the Gospels where people worshipped Jesus. Is it okay in God's eyes for us to worship other men, even if they're prophets? Have you really considered all of this?

Psalm 25:5-18
5 2 Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my savior. For you I wait all the long day, because of your goodness, LORD.
6 Remember your compassion and love, O LORD; for they are ages old.
7 Remember no more the sins of my youth; remember me only in light of your love.
8 Good and upright is the LORD, who shows sinners the way,
9 Guides the humble rightly, and teaches the humble the way.
10 All the paths of the LORD are faithful love toward those who honor the covenant demands.
11 For the sake of your name, LORD, pardon my guilt, though it is great.
12 Who are those who fear the LORD? God shows them the way to choose.
13 They live well and prosper, and their descendants inherit the land.
14 The counsel of the LORD belongs to the faithful; the covenant instructs them.
15 My eyes are ever upon the LORD, who frees my feet from the snare.
16 Look upon me, have pity on me, for I am alone and afflicted.
17 Relieve the troubles of my heart; bring me out of my distress.
18 Put an end to my affliction and suffering; take away all my sins.


Keeping in mind the passage above, GOD will take away our sins, and will show the sinner the corect way, and be a humble teacher. Jesus is God, man!!

The quotes show things that God has done for Jesus, but they do NOT tell you what Jesus is, who Jesus is. Jesus, proceeding from the Father being one with God, is made heir of all things, has the authority of the Father, etc. It makes sense that way, also. The Church fathers weren't babbling idiots.

Okay, now comment on the passage Psalms 25 that I used to "infer" Jesus's God nature, and the passage from Wisdom that you so vehemently want to deny has having any validity.

[Aineo]

I asked you a series of questions, which you have either ignored or decided not to answer and by avoiding those questions you show you would rather defend a doctrine than discuss those Scriptures that call your doctrine into question.

Would you believe that God was also with the early Church fathers who compiled the Canon and affirmed the Trinitarian doctrine? Seems it would be contradictory to deny the mainstream christian doctrine based on that reasoning. Would God let his Church fall to heresy and let heresy pollute the world?

Why should I accept a doctrine developed by men who also teach purgatory, the Marian doctrines, communicating with the dead, and a long list of other traditions that ignore those books they think they approved as the NT canon. Would God let his Church fall to heresy and let heresy pollute the world? No, but He has allowed men to fall into apostasy and fall away from His truth as Jesus, Paul, and John prophesied.

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.
NAS

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
NAS

1 John 2:18-23

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. NAS

Since you want to agree with Alexandrian Jews, then why not accept Philo of Alexandria's concept of logos? It is a bit hypocritical to appeal to one set of Alexandrian Jews while at the same time rejecting the writings of another Alexandrian Jew. The main theme of Wisdom is so Gnostic it is ludicrous to believe it was inspired by God and the fact the full name of the book is the Wisdom of Solomon and we know Solomon did not write the book is reason enough to reject it.

The history of the Catholic Church is filled with lies, murder, political intrigue, the promotion of idolatry, and other doctrines that deny its right to be called Christian.

Now, I am going to use my authority on this message board and delete any of your posts that do not address the questions I have asked and you have avoided answering.

[Believer]

asked you a series of questions, which you have either ignored or decided not to answer and by avoiding those questions you show you would rather defend a doctrine than discuss those Scriptures that call your doctrine into question.

I've addressed the verses and questions you've asked. In the process I posed some of my own questions.

Why should I accept a doctrine developed by men who also teach purgatory, the Marian doctrines, communicating with the dead, and a long list of other traditions that ignore those books they think they approved as the NT canon. Would God let his Church fall to heresy and let heresy pollute the world? No, but He has allowed men to fall into apostasy and fall away from His truth as Jesus, Paul, and John prophesied.

Perhaps there's more to Christianity than just the Bible.

9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold

The false prophets are people like muhammed, Joseph Smith, Mani, etc. The fathers of the Church, including the ones who wrote these books, I doubt are the false prophets.

Since you want to agree with Alexandrian Jews, then why not accept Philo of Alexandria's concept of logos? It is a bit hypocritical to appeal to one set of Alexandrian Jews while at the same time rejecting the writings of another Alexandrian Jew. The main theme of Wisdom is so Gnostic it is ludicrous to believe it was inspired by God and the fact the full name of the book is the Wisdom of Solomon and we know Solomon did not write the book is reason enough to reject it.

All I know is that there's a pretty darn strong Christian prophecy in that book. It just coincides so well with the Gospels! It doesn't all new things. The Alexandrian Jews I'd imagine were just as orthodox as any other community of Jews. So they lived in a Greek city, the Greeks had conquered the ancient world for centuries.

The history of the Catholic Church is filled with lies, murder, political intrigue, the promotion of idolatry, and other doctrines that deny its right to be called Christian.

If you're denial of the Trinity is because of your anti-Catholic stances on issues, you should know that the Trinity should be treated seperately from Marian concepts which are more based on traditions. The Protestants here are as much Trinitarian. This concept is more scriptural, although you need to infer it. It's not too hard to infer, it's not "hidden". But God ultimately wants us to believe things about Him based on faith.

You just need to see that there's more to Christ than a man, and there's more to the Spirit than merely a presence. This presence can respond, it exists here in those who believe. If I ask the Holy Spirit to comfort me, He comforts me and I literally feel that God is with me. If I had a perverted idea of who the Spirit is, I don't think that would happen! Being filled with the Holy Spirit

Now, I am going to use my authority on this message board and delete any of your posts that do not address the questions I have asked and you have avoided answering.

back to the Holy Spirit, okay. Although the other issues in this dicussion are very relevant and I stay on topic. It's all related.

See, the Father exists in Heaven. The Father seldom walks on this world. He appeared in visions and manifested His direct presence in the Ark which would kill men if they even touched it! When Jesus came, this was Emmanuel, God with us, and God walked among us teaching us the ways against sin and to be humble, and took away our sins!! How that He left, and He told His disciples this, that the Holy Spirit would be sent to be with them. The Holy Spirit is God that is manifest here with us, now after Christ has left. Through the Spirit we recognize Christ and we can have this personal relationship with God. The Spirit gives us strength, zeal, and strengthens faith. You've interpreted and stated the Spirit is just God's presence. I however, fail see the Spirit is just that. As much as I fail to see how Jesus is just a man.

You need FAITH, Aineo. Faith in God, what God did for you and I, and what God IS. Who is God? A single-bodied being or a great Mystery? Isn't God our Savior and Teacher? He takes away our sins. God's presence can respond to all of us when we converse with him. This presence of God is sentient, one in nature with the Father. This Spirit reponds, gives power, etc. Is this impersonal? No.

[Alpha]

Mainline Christianity needs to rethink their position since Jesus said "many are called but few are chosen"

That verse does not imply that few are chosen because they contain a special revelation outside the bounds of the simplicity that is within Christ. Therefore, though you might disagree with some mainline Christian doctrine, that does not mean that those who follow such will not be saved.

What special revelation are you referring to? Who, according to the Lord will be saved?

Matthew 7:20-21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. NAS

Matthew 12:50
50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." NAS

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." NAS

And it is quite possible that such people who do the will of God are following mainline Christian doctrine.

[Aineo]

Believer you have not responded to my questions you side stepped them so let me ask them one more time.

John 5:44
44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
NAS

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

Romans 16:27
27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
NAS

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

Galatians 3:20
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. NAS

How do you understand the "only true God", "only wise God", "but one God, the Father", and "God is only one"?

As to having faith, I do have faith in God and His Son unlike you who put your faith in traditions just as Mormon's put their faith in the Book of Mormon not the God and Jesus of the Bible. The foundation of Christianity is the apostles and the prophets and neither the apostles or the prophets taught a triune God.

What led me to reject the Trinity is taking God at His word, which is found in the Bible and as Jesus prayed "Sanctify them in truth, your word is truth".

Alpha, since we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by grace through faith in the Trinity what determines our eternal destiny is doing the will of God. So the question we all need to answer for ourselves is what is the will of God?

[Believer]

Believer you have not responded to my questions you side stepped them so let me ask them one more time.

John 5:44
44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
NAS

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

Romans 16:27
27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
NAS

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

Galatians 3:20
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. NAS

How do you understand the "only true God", "only wise God", "but one God, the Father", and "God is only one"?

I do believe in one God. I don't believe in three gods like the Mormons.
In Psalm 25 and many other places, we see that God is our Savior, God will be our humble teacher and take away our sins. God will show the sinners right from wrong.
These verses of yours don't account for MANY things. To say, based on these, that Jesus is ONLY a man leaves a huge void and doesn't add up.

As to having faith, I do have faith in God and His Son unlike you who put your faith in traditions just as Mormon's put their faith in the Book of Mormon not the God and Jesus of the Bible. The foundation of Christianity is the apostles and the prophets and neither the apostles or the prophets taught a triune God.

No, Aineo. I've investigated this matter myself years ago and looked carefully at verses and the whole story of Jesus and all that good stuff and the Trinity seems very real and evident to me. It makes sense. I do have faith that God wouldn't let the doctrine of His Church be something that will actually cause the destruction of most of it's followers. I see that as a Satan inspired concept. That's my straight out opinion, no intentions to offend.
The Apostles called Jesus Lord and there are examples of people worshipping Jesus. Jesus bore our sins. The Bible says no MAN can bear another man's sins. God is our Savior, our teacher, our Messiah.

What led me to reject the Trinity is taking God at His word, which is found in the Bible and as Jesus prayed "Sanctify them in truth, your word is truth".

Strange, that I and many would say the same thing and believe in the Trinity. If I were in error, maybe I would have been exposed and understand. You proceed to deny Matthew 28:19 and Wisdom 2 have any validity. This practice of expelling verses that don't fit the model isn't something I've done. truth is Jesus was not from the blood line of Adam and Eve. Technically, He isn't even a human being. Only in body, not in spirit. His soul wasn't something of this world. etc. Don't you agree? Have you actually thought about these things during free time??

[Aineo]

So Jesus was not from the blood line of Adam and Eve? So God lied in Genesis 3:15, 12:3, and 28:14? Who were Mary's ancestors if not human beings?

Free time? Believer I am on disability and all I have is free time. I have the luxury to study God's word and research the heretical roots of the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the pagan and philosophical roots of Catholicism.

Origen is the man who came up with the philosophical basis for the Trinity in the 3rd century, a concept that was expanded on and declared doctrine in the 4th century by men, not the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles called Jesus Lord and there are examples of people worshipping Jesus. Jesus bore our sins. The Bible says no MAN can bear another man's sins. God is our Savior, our teacher, our Messiah.

Jesus Christ who is a man is our Messiah who accepted worship because God highly exalted Him so that at His name every knee would bow in heaven and on earth.

The apostles called Jesus Lord, but so did David.

Psalms 110
1 A Psalm of David.

The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet."
2 The LORD will stretch forth Thy strong scepter from Zion, saying,
"Rule in the midst of Thine enemies."
3 Thy people will volunteer freely in the day of Thy power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Thy youth are to Thee as the dew.
4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind,
"Thou art a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."
5 The Lord is at Thy right hand;
He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He will judge among the nations,
He will fill them with corpses,
He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.
7 He will drink from the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He will lift up His head. NAS

The Messiah is the seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15) and the seed of Abraham (Genesis 22:18) so deny that Jesus is a human being is to deny God's word. Peter referred to Jesus as a Man:

Acts 2:22-36

22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him,

'I was always beholding the Lord in my presence; For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26'Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted; Moreover my flesh also will abide in hope; 27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay. 28'Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; Thou wilt make me full of gladness with Thy presence.'

29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:

'The Lord said to my Lord,"Sit at My right hand, 35 Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet. "'
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-- this Jesus whom you crucified." NAS

Paul wrote:
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NAS

1 Timothy 2:4-7
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NAS

You are not only labeling God a liar you are labeling Peter and Paul liars.

[Believer]

So Jesus was not from the blood line of Adam and Eve? So God lied in Genesis 3:15, 12:3, and 28:14? Who were Mary's ancestors if not human beings?

The Messiah is the seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15) and the seed of Abraham (Genesis 22:18) so deny that Jesus is a human being is to deny God's word. Peter referred to Jesus as a Man:

Let me elaborate. Jesus had a virgin birth. The seed was not from Joseph or Mary, but created directly by God, to house the divine Jesus who preexisted before His birth.

Free time? Believer I am on disability and all I have is free time. I have the luxury to study God's word and research the heretical roots of the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the pagan and philosophical roots of Catholicism.

Too much free time, I see. You're tying the Trinity to catholciism too much. Fundamentalist Protestants have not rejected the Trinitarian doctrine, but have rejected Catholic beliefs. Do you know why? That's not a part of any tradition. That's real and in the Bible. It needs to be seen and believed. This is a test of faith, to know who God is. To not know God is to die. You think I'd sleep well at night with any slight feeling that I know not God, and I should die? I know that Jesus is the Lord and Savior of man, and that God is the Lord and Savior of man, and so on. There are many things one could say. I do not degenerate Christ. or the Holy Spirit. They are divine in origin, and they're not angels.

Origen is the man who came up with the philosophical basis for the Trinity in the 3rd century, a concept that was expanded on and declared doctrine in the 4th century by men, not the Holy Spirit.

There is philosophical and scriptural basis for the Trinity. Skip through this:
http://www.mbrem.com/god/trinity.htm

The Trinity is a revealed doctrine. You need to see it and believe. Use reasoning and deduct the Trinity only if you have an open mind to God, or your heart won't let you see it.

Jesus Christ who is a man is our Messiah who accepted worship because God highly exalted Him so that at His name every knee would bow in heaven and on earth.

To bring Jesus to the level that He exists on is Godhood. Don't be in denial of Jesus's Lordliness. Jesus's soul, His nature is the same as the Father, and the Spirit. This is part of the Mystery of who God is. Not everything is or should be so clear. This serves as test, to see which seeds give rise to plants that grow towards God, not in some wacky cooky direction and die.

The apostles called Jesus Lord, but so did David.

So Jesus preexisted.

You are not only labeling God a liar you are labeling Peter and Paul liars.

No, Jesus was a man. He was also the manifestation of God, because God is our Savior, our Teacher, our Lord, our King forever, our Comforter...all of these things. The Psalms and other places call God our Savior and Lord, and sometimes His Son is called these things too.

[Believer]

This site goes into the Trinity and scripture, I haven't got ot reading it yet. You might find it interesting.
http://www.mbrem.com/god/oneness.htm

[Aineo]

I see a lot of assumptions in your post and a lot of denial of God's word and prophesies concerning the Messiah.

In Genesis 3:15 the Messiah is to be from the seed of the woman and Mary was a woman or do you deny this? I also see your refusal to research how the doctrine of the Trinity came into Christianity and it has nothing to do with being revealed, it was forced on select Scriptures as well as by the use of Greek philosophy, which is the antithesis of Hebraic monotheism.

I suggest you take some time to actually study God's word instead of Catholic propoganda. As to your links, I am not interested in the opinions of men since the wisdom of wise men is foolishness to God.

1 Corinthians 1:21
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe
NAS

1 Corinthians 3:19-21
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness"; 20 and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless." 21 So then let no one boast in men.
NAS

[Alpha]

Aineo, do you think it is possible for someone to be saved if they do not reason like you and believe in the Trinity?

In Genesis 3:15 the Messiah is to be from the seed of the woman and Mary was a woman or do you deny this?

Was scripture literal when it interpreted the coming of Elijah as John the Baptist? I'm not saying you are wrong (or right), perhaps God did give Mary seed. But maybe that verse in Genesis 3:15 can just be figurative language to represent the virgin birth.

[Aineo]

Aineo, do you think it is possible for someone to be saved if they do not reason like you and believe in the Trinity?

I answered your question. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I am not in a position to judge the hearts of all of those who accept the Trinity and unlike others who see rejection of the Trinity as rejection of the Lord I will not judge those who disagree with me unless they promote outright heresy like the UPC and other cults as well as Catholicism.

[Believer]

I see a lot of assumptions in your post and a lot of denial of God's word and prophesies concerning the Messiah.

So that's what you're reduced to saying?
The assumption based on the FACTS that Jesus preexisted before His birth...we don't preexist before birth, and that Jesus is coequal with the Father, was we can see clearly in scripture, and that we worship Jesus...I fail to see how unclear it is that Jesus is more than a man, that He is divine.

The Transfiguration also reveals Jesus in His preexistant glory, as a divine being whom the prophets could only glimpse in visions. Peter was stupified at the awesome sight of Jesus who at will transfigured Himself.

In Genesis 3:15 the Messiah is to be from the seed of the woman and Mary was a woman or do you deny this? I also see your refusal to research how the doctrine of the Trinity came into Christianity and it has nothing to do with being revealed, it was forced on select Scriptures as well as by the use of Greek philosophy, which is the antithesis of Hebraic monotheism.

Jesus doesn't have the same DNA as Mary or Joseph, He was perfect. He was seeded in Mary, true, but He was not a part of this sinful race of mortals.
The Trinity preserves monotheism and accounts for Jesus and the Spirit. This is the correct way to look at God, and it is far from a baseless assumption.

The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless

That's why there's faith. The Trinity one believes out of faith, not reasoning. It's not a baseless false belief.

Worshipping a man is idolatry and wicked. To worship Jesus who isn't divine, who is just a special kinda man is considerably more wicked than praying to the saints and Mary for intercession. A man who inherits all that is God's is also far more blasphemous of a thing to say. If this man Jesus is divine, that makes it more palatable. Or the faith makes no sense, it's illogical. Christianity is just another mystery cult like Mithraism if the Messianic figure is like you and me, it would be a humanistic religion like all others. it must be God, as is written in the Psalms and books of the prophets, that GOD is our Lord and Savior.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled."

[Aineo]

Like I posted you are in denial concerning God's truth and the Messianic prophesies. Jesus preexisted His human birth as the predestined plan of God for the redemption of Israel and all mankind, not as part of a triune Godhead. God's word does not need to be interpreted it needs to be studied to be understood.

Jesus was born from Mary's egg, which is why Jesus is a human being. The true Church of Jesus Christ is not the church organized in Rome by Constantine and a bunch of gentiles out to control the hearts and minds of men with a mirror of God's truth, a tarnished mirror that denies God's truth with it unholy traditions.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled."

So your response to the Lord's words are to deny what was written in the law of Moses and in the prophets, and the Psalms. Moses wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:14-19

14 "For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so. 15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19'And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. NAS

Now if Jesus is God then who is the prophet like Moses that was to come since Moses was a man, not God. Peter quotes this prophecy in Acts 3 as does Stephen in Acts 7 and both of them saw it fulfilled in the man Jesus of Nazareth. So it is very hypocritical of you to quote Luke 24:44 while denying the inerrancy of the Law of Moses, the prophets, and the Psalms.

[Believer]

Like I posted you are in denial concerning God's truth and the Messianic prophesies. Jesus preexisted His human birth as the predestined plan of God for the redemption of Israel and all mankind, not as part of a triune Godhead. God's word does not need to be interpreted it needs to be studied to be understood.

It's the opposite of denial. rather than denying that Jesus is coequal with the Father, sitting at His right hand and inheriting all that is His, and will be our Lord. I affirm these things by saying, you Jesus are my Lord and my God, like Thomas said to Christ. "You are my Lord and my God" (John 20:28 )8). What does that verse mean, Aineo? Thomas actually calls Jesus Lord and "God".

You are interpreting God' word. Words are just symbols arranged. We interpret everything, including God's word. We read the same things, by they appear different to us. I don't feel like I'm interpreting the Bible, the Trinity appears natural to me. Question is only which interpretation is correct.

Jesus was born from Mary's egg, which is why Jesus is a human being. The true Church of Jesus Christ is not the church organized in Rome by Constantine and a bunch of gentiles out to control the hearts and minds of men with a mirror of God's truth, a tarnished mirror that denies God's truth with it unholy traditions.

If Jesus preexisted before he came to this world, how can He be a son of Adam. He preexisted Adam. he preexisted original sin. Apparently Jesus created all things, so prexisted mankind completely. It starts to make sense that Jesus is more than a man.

So your response to the Lord's words are to deny what was written in the law of Moses and in the prophets, and the Psalms. Moses wrote:

Now if Jesus is God then who is the prophet like Moses that was to come since Moses was a man, not God. Peter quotes this prophecy in Acts 3 as does Stephen in Acts 7 and both of them saw it fulfilled in the man Jesus of Nazareth. So it is very hypocritical of you to quote Luke 24:44 while denying the inerrancy of the Law of Moses, the prophets, and the Psalms.

No. I've made that argument against Muslims that Jesus is this prophet, God spoke through Him. Every word Jesus said, was from God. Jesus the man is a shell, a vessel, containing human limitations...who Christ is is what resided in Him, the preexistant Jesus.

[Aineo]

Like I posted you are denying God's truth by denying the truthfullness of the prophecies and putting your own spin on them. One verse out of Scripture does not make a doctrine valid, after all Peter refers to Jesus of Nazareth as a man and the predestined plan for our salvation. So who is correct your first Pope or a man we never hear of again after John 20:58? Is it your contention that Pope's are not infallible when speaking ex-cathedra on matters of faith and morals?

[Believer]

Like I posted you are denying God's truth by denying the truthfullness of the prophecies and putting your own spin on them. One verse out of Scripture does not make a doctrine valid, after all Peter refers to Jesus of Nazareth as a man and the predestined plan for our salvation. So who is correct your first Pope or a man we never hear of again after John 20:58? Is it your contention that Pope's are not infallible when speaking ex-cathedra on matters of faith and morals?

Aineo, it's not fair to ignore verses like that. Everything fits together in God's inspired Word. How do you interpret what Thomas said to Jesus? If you do not accept this verse, then only you are denying God's word. I have not denied any of your provided verses. I'd like to believe all of these verses fit together in one picture. They are like puzzle pieces. If I must rationalize that here Jesus is called God, and here Jesus is our savior, and here God is our savior, and here Jesus is our Lord, and here Jesus is a preexitant being that was with the Father when the universe was created eons ago...why can't you follow this example? They have a spin of their own when you put them together. That's my spin, what the Bible leads me to believe.

[Aineo]

It is not fair to ignore your one verse but it is fair for you to ignore the verses I posted that show your interpretation of John 20:58 is false? Come on Believer you are flopping around like a fish out of water to avoid what Peter, John, Paul, and Jude wrote.

Your problem is you refuse to take what Peter said in Acts at face value, you have to find a hidden meaning so you can support your heretical Marian doctrines. You are doing the same thing John 10:10 and others have done, you are rationalizing what you believe and avoiding responding to those Scriptures that prove your faith in Catholicism and the Trinity is based on manmade doctrines. You have even labeled the Holy Spirit a liar by stating Jesus was not born a human being when the Holy Spirit inspired Moses to write Genesis 3:15 as well as all the other verses that refer to the Lord as a Man.

What is plain from all your posts is you are afraid to actually accept God at His word since His word shows your church is a deck of cards held up by lies.

[Believer]

It is not fair to ignore your one verse but it is fair for you to ignore the verses I posted that show your interpretation of John 20:58 is false? Come on Believer you are flopping around like a fish out of water to avoid what Peter, John, Paul, and Jude wrote.

I didn't ignore the verses you gave! C'mon. I told you what I believed about them. Jesus was a man. but is that all? Those were only some verses about Christ. You have been shown that your theory is wrong, the Bible speaks for itself. The Bible shows direct evidence that Jesus is God, as well as man. You provide scripture that Jesus is man, good job, and I provide scripture that Jesus is God. Ya can't just totally ignore a verse like that shows Christ as God and Christ didn't rebuke him. Thomas was an Apostle, not some third party nobody character.

our problem is you refuse to take what Peter said in Acts at face value, you have to find a hidden meaning so you can support your heretical Marian doctrines. You are doing the same thing John 10:10 and others have done, you are rationalizing what you believe and avoiding responding to those Scriptures that prove your faith in Catholicism and the Trinity is based on manmade doctrines. You have even labeled the Holy Spirit a liar by stating Jesus was not born a human being when the Holy Spirit inspired Moses to write Genesis 3:15 as well as all the other verses that refer to the Lord as a Man.

Just pretend I'm another Protestant who believes in the Trinity like any Catholic. I'm not some hard core Catholic, okay. This argument of yours, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't have much weight. We're two people with two ideas, who both claim the Bible supports them. One of us needs to walk away at some point corrected. You're here denying verses and stuff. I dunno, doesn't look good for the Aineo camp.

What is plain from all your posts is you are afraid to actually accept God at His word since His word shows your church is a deck of cards held up by lies.

For some very unusual personal reason you just don't want to believe in the Trinity. Doesn't matter if it's true. You'd be willing to ignore and deny passages...a practice that gives you away. You can't hide that dark veil that blinds your heart. You have to import anti-catholicism into the argument to make you sound strong. You've put up a strong fight, but the cherade is over. Repeat it with me, Jesus you are my Lord, my God, my Savior! You preexist all of creation!

[Aineo]

What you believe is immaterial to God's truth and since you believe the lies of the Catholic Church your credibility on this forum is suspect. You see Believer I can back up what I believe with more verses than you can interpret away to rationalize your beliefs.

Catholicism is the epitome of circular reasoning. First it declares itself the only true apostolic church of Jesus Christ and then decides that God's grace and the Lord's sacrifice are not enough so it teaches purgatory. The Bible never tells us that God has a mother, so the Catholic Church developes the Trinity so Mary can have the title mother of God, which is ludicrous since you insist that Jesus preexisted Mary and is not even a human being so by your own words Mary cannot be the mother of God since according to you Jesus is not human and in effect created the mother of God who then gave birth to her preexistent son.

Now maybe some one with some common sense can respond to this thread since you have not addressed my questions and I will delete any of your posts that do not rationally and in plain English minus personal interpretations address God's word.

[Alpha]

Aineo, do you think it is possible for someone to be saved if they do not reason like you and believe in the Trinity?

I answered your question. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I am not in a position to judge the hearts of all of those who accept the Trinity and unlike others who see rejection of the Trinity as rejection of the Lord I will not judge those who disagree with me unless they promote outright heresy like the UPC and other cults as well as Catholicism.

I can understand that. But you don't think that the Trinity is heresy? I couldn't tell with you arguing against it.

[Aineo]

I can understand that. But you don't think that the Trinity is heresy? I couldn't tell with you arguing against it.

I don't accept OSAS or a pre-trib rapture either but I don't think those who accept these doctrines are bound for hell. As to the Trinity if people worship the Lord as if He is God like the UPC then I would opine they are practicing heresy and question their salvation. Doctrines will not save anyone. Those who accept the Trinity and hate their neighbor and do not do the will of the Father have judged themselves by living in disobedience to God.

If you want to interpret Scipture in order to find a triune God that is up to you, but I choose to take God at His word (the Bible). And Peter said:

Acts 5:29-32
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." NAS

Now, I started this thread with a question that all who have responded to this thread have not even attempted to answer. And the fact no responder has tried to show me the Holy Spirit in what Jesus said only leads me to believe that none of you can answer my question and are simply avoiding Scriptures that show the Trinity is a false doctrine.

[Alpha]

.......and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.

The same way you interpreted two verses to show the Father is the Holy Spirit, one can use the quoted verse above to show that they are distinct. I am not arguing that the Trinity is right or wrong. I am just saying we should bow the knee, and that it might be possible (Lord willing) that the Trinity is a true doctrine.

[Aineo]

.......and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.

The same way you interpreted two verses to show the Father is the Holy Spirit, one can use the quoted verse above to show that they are distinct. I am not arguing that the Trinity is right or wrong. I am just saying we should bow the knee, and that it might be possible (Lord willing) that the Trinity is a true doctrine.

Show me how I interpreted the verses in my initial post. I asked where the Holy Spirit is in the Lord's prayer in John 17. I showed that the dove descended on Jesus when He was baptized and that Jesus later says the Father is in Him but does not say the Holy Spirit is in Him. Why not, if the Holy Spirit is a person distinct from the Father? Also who is the only true God if not the Father who Jesus is praying to? To interpret this to mean Jesus is comparing the Father to false gods is forcing a doctrine on Jesus' words since the context of John 17 does not even bring up false gods.

[Believer]

Show me how I interpreted the verses in my initial post. I asked where the Holy Spirit is in the Lord's prayer in John 17. I showed that the dove descended on Jesus when He was baptized and that Jesus later says the Father is in Him but does not say the Holy Spirit is in Him. Why not, if the Holy Spirit is a person distinct from the Father? Also who is the only true God if not the Father who Jesus is praying to? To interpret this to mean Jesus is comparing the Father to false gods is forcing a doctrine on Jesus' words since the context of John 17 does not even bring up false gods.

One reason is that Christ said the Lord's prayer before the Spirit was sent to remain with the Apostles. So, what you see is the vision of the Father, Son, and Spirit revealed at the baptism of Christ, and again Christ reveals the Trinity when He instructs his disciples to baptize others near the end of Luke. To judge that the Spirit is divine requires one to dig alittle deeper in scripture, but the Spirit as a part of the Trinity is shown in scripture. It's more evident to see Christ's divinity and Godhood and perhaps this needs to be demonstrated first, before one moves to the Spirit.
Nobody believes Jesus and the Father are God, but exclude the Spirit, interestingly.

[Aineo]

[One reason is that Christ said the Lord's prayer before the Spirit was sent to remain with the Apostles.

Now you are denying what was written in John:

John 1:29-34

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 "This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.' 31 "And I did not recognize Him, but in order that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water." 32 And John bore witness saying, "I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' 34 "And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God." NAS

Nice try to avoid the questions I posted but your intepretation defies reason since Jesus performed His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Believer]

Also, keep in mind the Apostles, in John, were asking Jesus specifically about His relationship with the Father. They weren't asking about the Spirit or His relationship with the Spirit. This thread is about the Spirit, right? My thread is specifically about Jesus Christ. You have no reason to lock that. It's for everyone to respond to. You know that.

[Aineo]

There are three threads going on the Lord, and I had a valid reason to lock it. Now, if you are not willing to discuss the Trinity on the ongoing threads then you can retire from all discussions.

John 1 and 17 have nothing to do with the apostles asking Jesus anything so again your response lacks both logic and reason. In John 14 Jesus is explaining that the Father is in Him and that those who have seen Jesus have seen the Father. In Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1 Paul (who probably wrote Hebrews) tells us the Son is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of God's nature. Now, the fact Jesus told the apostles that the Father is in Him and Jesus does not mention the Holy Spirit should cause you to ask some questions like where is the Holy Spirit in Jesus' ministry? The answer is the Holy Spirit is another name for the Father.

[Believer]

There are three threads going on the Lord, and I had a valid reason to lock it. Now, if you are not willing to discuss the Trinity on the ongoing threads then you can retire from all discussions.

Then don't respond! Now you delete it? That's not the way to convince people you're way of thought is correct. Deleting and locking Biblical verses and free speech like that. Not very Christian. I was only trying to demonstrate that Jesus being divine isn't mindless made up jabber.

John 1 and 17 have nothing to do with the apostles asking Jesus anything so again your response lacks both logic and reason. In John 14 Jesus is explaining that the Father is in Him and that those who have seen Jesus have seen the Father. In Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1 Paul (who probably wrote Hebrews) tells us the Son is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of God's nature. Now, the fact Jesus told the apostles that the Father is in Him and Jesus does not mention the Holy Spirit should cause you to ask some questions like where is the Holy Spirit in Jesus' ministry?

What makes you think the answer is here and not elsewhere in other verses?

The answer is the Holy Spirit is another name for the Father.

That's your OPINION on who the Spirit is. My argument is good, it just don't coincide with your opinion. The Spirit proceeds from the Father and is one with the Father, so in sense you're right. The Spirit, who is the Advocatem whom the Father sends, that Christ spoke of, is portrayed as, at least, as being capable of responsing and acting. It's not a mere reflection of the Father. God isn't this two-dimensional entity. This Spirit has personality, it's not inanimate or unresponsive.

John 15:26
"When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.

[Aineo]

I did not delete it, I moved your thread to a hidden forum. Now, I suggest you review our Forum Rules, especially #11.

Added a new Rule #11

Moderators have final say. jesus-christ-forums.com administrators and moderators reserve the right to edit, relocate and/or remove any message, at any time, for any reason. Consider all editing decisions final. If you don't agree with a decision, you may discuss it with the moderator who made the judgment in private. If you cannot reach resolution with the Moderator in private, contact the site administrator via e-mail (http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/email/), explaining the entire situation, with all relevant links/excerpts/emails, etc. Under no circumstance attempt to start a 'debate' about specific moderation decisions in a public forum

Now, on other boards where I have tried to discuss the Trinity my threads have been locked and when I post that Trinitarians avoid Scriptures that show the Trinity is a false doctrine I got banned. Well, on this message board I cannot be banned and I can lock threads that avoid the discussion.

There are 3 active threads dealing with the Trinity. You can either post to those threads and respond to questions or you can retire from these discussions the choice is yours.

Now, as to your argument it does not hold water. I will repeat Jesus was not discussing His relationship with the Father with the apostles in John 1 or John 17. Your opinion and $5 will get you a venta mocha valentia at Starbucks, in other words your opinion is worthless when you avoid God's inerrant and inspired word to promote a doctrine that I have shown with a plethora of Scriptures is wrong.

[Believer]

Now, on other boards where I have tried to discuss the Trinity my threads have been locked and when I post that Trinitarians avoid Scriptures that show the Trinity is a false doctrine I got banned. Well, on this message board I cannot be banned and I can lock threads that avoid the discussion.

Calling a major tenent of Christianity a false made up belief probably offended and upset alot of people, if it was stated crudely like that.

Now, as to your argument it does not hold water. I will repeat Jesus was not discussing His relationship with the Father with the apostles in John 1 or John 17. Your opinion and $5 will get you a venta mocha valentia at Starbucks, in other words your opinion is worthless when you avoid God's inerrant and inspired word to promote a doctrine that I have shown with a plethora of Scriptures is wrong.

John 14:8
Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us."

Look elsewhere, then. take the argument where the evidence is strong, and try to break it's stronghold. Or, see it there, evident, and believe. That's the way you ought to go.

I'd like for you to tell me the deal on these verses, because the Spirit's nature is revealed HERE:

John 15:26
"When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.

This Spirit proceeds from the Father, rather than merely being the Father's prescence (although that too, as much as Jesus was). This is a "he" and an "Advocate" Not an "it". I mean, how does this loose water?

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.

There argument for the Spirit has relevant grounds here. What's your interpretation?

[Aineo]

All you are doing Believer is exposing your inability to follow a chain of Scriptures. But, then that is how you establish the Trinity isn't it? You pick out a couple of Scriptures that seem to prove the Trinity and ignore all the others that prove the Trinity is a false doctrine.

I have yet to debate a Catholic who can stay on topic and you are no exception. Now, as you noted earlier this thread is about the Holy Spirit. So show me the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures you are trying to use to take this thread off topic.

[Believer]

Are you serious? Reread the thread above. I asked you to comment on verses explicitly and obviously about the Holy Spirit. I'm asking you nicely. You want to argue about the Holy Spirit, those are the verses to argue over.

[Aineo]

What you asked and the purpose of this thread are not the same. Now do you think you can stick to the topic? Where is the Holy Spirit? Jesus told the apostles the Father is in Him, but Jesus does not mention the Holy Spirit who we know descended and remained on the Lord when John baptized Him.

[Believer]

What you asked and the purpose of this thread are not the same. Now do you think you can stick to the topic?

What??? I gave verses from John 14-15 about the Holy Spirit, and that "he" proceeded from the Father. VERY RELEVANT. And I've asked you many many times to kindly comment on what you think those verses mean. I would value your comments on them.

Where is the Holy Spirit? Jesus told the apostles the Father is in Him, but Jesus does not mention the Holy Spirit who we know descended and remained on the Lord when John baptized Him.

Jesus wasn't talking about the Holy Spirit yet, He did shortly after. He said the Spirit proceeds from the Father, like He himself. Jesus wanted to stress His relationship with the Father. That's my answer give or take some more things I've said about in other posts. Okay? Now, you're turn. I wait patiently.

[Aineo]

The Holy Spirit procedes from the Father because the Holy Spirit is the Father. Now, do you think you can stick to the thread topic? Where is the Holy Spirit in what Jesus said about Himself, not about after His resurrection.

[Believer]

The Holy Spirit procedes from the Father because the Holy Spirit is the Father. Now, do you think you can stick to the thread topic? Where is the Holy Spirit in what Jesus said about Himself, not about after His resurrection.

I already gave my stance on that particular verse. Jesus wanted to stress His relationship with the Father. Okay?

The Holy Spirit is the Father, okay. This is called "he", the Counselor, the Advocate. Would you agree that this Holy Spirit can do things? Keep in mind the Father, as the Godhead, sits on His throne. He doesn't come to this world and do things. Note that God is a complex incomprehensible being, a Mystery...captilized "M".

[Aineo]

Yehovah sits on the throne, and Yehovah is the Father. Our advocate is the Lord.

Deuteronomy 32:6
6 "Do you thus repay the LORD,
O foolish and unwise people?
Is not He your Father who has bought you?
He has made you and established you. NAS

Isaiah 63:16
16 For Thou art our Father, though Abraham does not know us,
And Israel does not recognize us.
Thou, O LORD, art our Father,
Our Redeemer from of old is Thy name. NAS

Isaiah 64:8

8 But now, O LORD, Thou art our Father,
We are the clay, and Thou our potter;
And all of us are the work of Thy hand. NAS

Jeremiah 3:19

19 "Then I said,

'How I would set you among My sons,
And give you a pleasant land,
The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!'
And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father,
And not turn away from following Me.' NAS

1 John 2:1-2
2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. NAS

Now, where is the Holy Spirit in those Scriptures I used to start this thread?

[Believer]

1 John 2:1-2
2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. NAS

The Advocate is WITH the Father, and was sent by Him. This isn't some lifeless unresponsive reflection or only a presence of the Father. This Advocate proceeds from the Father and does things.

Yehovah sits on the throne, and Yehovah is the Father. Our advocate is the Lord.

How do you propose the Father, who sits on His throne, keeps an active responsive, real presence? His presence possesses personality, part of the mystery of God. Ths Holy Spirit is not to be underscored.

Now, where is the Holy Spirit in those Scriptures I used to start this thread?

Excuse me, I just answered that question. This section in John, Jesus was stressing His relationship with the Father. That's my answer.
Look at John 14:26,15:26...these verses Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus does mention the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit distinctly

Matthew 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

Don't cheat by dismissing this verse as added nonsense. That's cheating. Address this verse for me, please.

[Aineo]

Tell us Believer is English your second language? What part of "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" do you not understand?

As to Matthew 28:19, if you consider your ECF's writings nonesense then why do you promote what they wrote? Also, you have not answered my question you have avoided my question by trying to tell us our Advocate is the Holy Spirit and not the Lord.

The Holy Spirit is the Father, okay. This is called "he", the Counselor, the Advocate.

And BTW, my premise is the Holy Spirit is the Father, not another person seperate and distinct from the Father and either you cannot make up your mind or you are just trying to obfuscate this thread since you agreed and then changed your approach.

[Believer]

Tell us Believer is English your second language? What part of "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" do you not understand?

The Advocate is WITH the Father, and was sent by Him. This isn't some lifeless unresponsive reflection or only a presence of the Father. This Advocate proceeds from the Father and does things.

But this matches with:

John 15:26
"When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.

Yes, Jesus is also an advocate for us, I should have read that carefully.
That doesn't mean the argument is void.

As to Matthew 28:19, if you consider your ECF's writings nonesense then why do you promote what they wrote? Also, you have not answered my question you have avoided my question by trying to tell us our Advocate is the Holy Spirit and not the Lord.

The commenting from the NAB reads:

12 [19] Therefore: since universal power belongs to the risen Jesus (Matthew 28:18), he gives the eleven a mission that is universal. They are to make disciples of all nations. While all nations is understood by some scholars as referring only to all Gentiles, it is probable that it included the Jews as well. Baptizing them: baptism is the means of entrance into the community of the risen one, the Church. In the name of the Father . . . holy Spirit: this is perhaps the clearest expression in the New Testament of trinitarian belief. It may have been the baptismal formula of Matthew's church, but primarily it designates the effect of baptism, the union of the one baptized with the Father, Son, and holy Spirit.

I believe this verse is true, as would most Christians.

I answered your question.

The Advocate Christ speaks of is the Holy Spirit. This is SHOWN in the two verses give. Can't say it's made up baloney if it's right there in bold letters. Accept or deny the Holy Spirit being the one Jesus promised the Father would send that came from Him, that's the option.

And BTW, my premise is the Holy Spirit is the Father, not another person seperate and distinct from the Father and either you cannot make up your mind or you are just trying to obfuscate this thread since you agreed and then changed your approach.

Obfuscating?? Read over this again:

How do you propose the Father, who sits on His throne, keeps an active, responsive, real presence? His presence possesses personality, part of the mystery of God. Ths Holy Spirit is not to be underscored.

This "Counselor, Advocate, Holy Spirit" isn't an "it", it's a personality.

[Aineo]

You really do have a problem understanding plain English don't you? I have not posted the Holy Spirit is some "lifeless unresponsive reflection" of anything. I have posted that the Holy Spirit is another name for the Father, who is the only true God (John 17:3).

Now do you think you can actually respond to the OP? Or is your only tactic to avoid a valid question is to ignore that after the Holy Spirit descended and remained on the Lord, the Lord tells us the Father is in Him is to try to obfuscate the purpose of this thread, which is to show that the Holy Spirit is our Creator who is also our comforter.

[Aineo]

Oh, and as to the footnote you posted from, I think the NAB, that one verse does not establish a doctrine that is shown to be false by John 17:3, Romans 16:27, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and a plethora of other verses.

The origins of the Trinity derive from Origen's philosophy:

Origen begins his treatise On First Principles by establishing, in typical Platonic fashion, a divine hierarchical triad; but instead of calling these principles by typical Platonic terms like monad, dyad, and world-soul, he calls them "Father," "Christ," and "Holy Spirit," though he does describe these principles using Platonic language. The first of these principles, the Father, is a perfect unity, complete unto Himself, and without body - a purely spiritual mind. Since God the Father is, for Origen, "personal and active," it follows that there existed with Him, always, an entity upon which to exercise His intellectual activity. This entity is Christ the Son, the Logos, or Wisdom (Sophia), of God, the first emanation of the Father, corresponding to Numenius' "second god," as we have seen above (section 2). The third and last principle of the divine triad is the Holy Spirit, who "proceeds from the Son and is related to Him as the Son is related to the Father" (A. Tripolitis 1978, p. 94). Here is Origen explaining the status of the Holy Spirit, in a passage preserved in the original Greek:

The God and Father, who holds the universe together, is superior to every being that exists, for he imparts to each one from his own existence that which each one is; the Son, being less than the Father, is superior to rational creatures alone (for he is second to the Father); the Holy Spirit is still less, and dwells within the saints alone. So that in this way the power of the Father is greater than that of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and that of the Son is more than that of the Holy Spirit, and in turn the power of the Holy Spirit exceeds that of every other holy being (Fragment 9 [Koetschau] tr. Butterworth 1966, pp. 33-34, and footnote).
_______________

Origen was an innovator in an era when innovation, for Christians, was a luxury ill-afforded. He drew upon pagan philosophy in an effort to elucidate the Christian faith in a manner acceptable to intellectuals, and he succeeded in converting many gifted pagan students of philosophy to his faith. He was also a great humanist, who believed that all creatures will eventually achieve salvation, including the devil himself. Origen did not embrace the dualism of Gnosticism, nor that of the more primitive expressions of the Christian faith still extant in his day. Rather, he took Christianity to a higher level, finding in it a key to the perfection of the intellect or mind, which is what all souls are in their pure form. The restoration of all souls to a purely intellectual existence was Origen's faith, and his philosophy was based upon such a faith. In this, he is an heir to Socrates and Plato, but he also brought a new conception into philosophy - that of the creative aspect of the soul, as realized in history, the culmination of which is salvation, after which follows an eternal delving into the deep mysteries of God.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/origen.htm

Origen wrote that: "The Scriptures, are of little use to those who understand them as they are written."

Called the first Bible Critic; He removed “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself” from Matthew 19:19 because he did not agree with it. He claimed that it had been added by some tasteless scribe without any evidence whatsoever.
http://www.learnthebible.org/preservati ... ptions.htm

Based on how Origen played with the word of God, it is not inconceivable he added "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" to Matthew 28:19.

Now from the footnote you quoted:

While all nations is understood by some scholars as referring only to all Gentiles, it is probable that it included the Jews as well.

This is pure antisemitism. All you have to do to refute this is read Romans.

I take what the Catholic Church publishes with a grain of salt since Catholic doctrine voids God's truth so often as to be less than credible.

[Believer]

You really do have a problem understanding plain English don't you? I have not posted the Holy Spirit is some "lifeless unresponsive reflection" of anything. I have posted that the Holy Spirit is another name for the Father, who is the only true God (John 17:3).

So the Holy Spirit has personality, because if "he" is an "it" and is merely a presence of the Father "it" would lack capability, as the Trinitarian Holy Spirit, to respond, act, give power, move, etc. This Spirit teaches and acts. If it were only the presence of the Father and nothing else, the Father would essentially be the Advocate...which is not what we see here in the two verses emphasized and other places.

The Holy Spirit is this God's sentience and presence manifested in a person proceeding from God, thus is God and of God's nature.
Because the Father sits on His throne, and the Holy Spirit is God in those who believe...granting power, strength, fueling his conscience with what God teaches, etc, the Spirit being the Trinitarian Holy Spirit makes sense.

Now do you think you can actually respond to the OP? Or is your only tactic to avoid a valid question is to ignore that after the Holy Spirit descended and remained on the Lord, the Lord tells us the Father is in Him is to try to obfuscate the purpose of this thread, which is to show that the Holy Spirit is our Creator who is also our comforter.

Read through the thread again. I gave answers to your questions. The Holy Spirit is God. Maybe you misunderstand the Trinity, then. I believe too that the Holy Spirit is God.

I absolutely don't buy that Origen made up the Trinity. Why? because I've never heard of this guy. I read the Bible and I see that Jesus is man by many verses, and that Jesus is divine by many verses. I choose not to ingnore these verses. I see in scripture that that the Holy Spirit also possess God's nature. He proceeds from the Father, like Christ.

Oh, and as to the footnote you posted from, I think the NAB, that one verse does not establish a doctrine that is shown to be false by John 17:3, Romans 16:27, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and a plethora of other verses.

That's a very poor argument. First, I absolutely don't see those verses as contradictory to the Trinity. That's only your interpretation. What I'm getting is this: you don't understand the Trinity. You like Muslims believe it's against monotheism. Not true. Or that it's some pagan idea. No, the Trinity has no analogues anywhere in any faith. It's purely Christian.
You seem to ignore purposely certain verses because they on't fit your little idea, and forcing this seemingly simplistic pure idea as pure Biblical truth is alot harder than you expected. What does that tell you? Are the rest of us Christians really a bunch of retards? C'mon! No, we SEE things and we believe.

[Aineo]

Read the OP again. The Holy Spirit is God but not a distinct and seperate person from God. As to the accepting the doctrine of the Trinity indicating the majority of Christians are retards that is your statment not mine. People believe what they are taught and usually without question, which is why Catholics are so deceived. You cannot establish your "holy traditions" in Scripture, they are based on Greek philosophical concepts that are totally foreign to God's truth.

You can reject Origen's influence on Catholicism all you want, the fact is he was one of the most influencial of your ECF's. As to ignoring Scriptures that show the Trinity to be a manmade doctrine, the only way you can continue to accept the Trinity as Biblical is to ignore all the Scriptures that show it is a false doctrine based on philosophy and not God's truth.

[Believer]

Read the OP again. The Holy Spirit is God but not a distinct and seperate person from God.

That is purely your interpretation.

As to the accepting the doctrine of the Trinity indicating the majority of Christians are retards that is your statment not mine. People believe what they are taught and usually without question, which is why Catholics are so deceived. You cannot establish your "holy traditions" in Scripture, they are based on Greek philosophical concepts that are totally foreign to God's truth.

Because we're not. We see the Trinity and it's evidences in the Bible and we Christians believe and accept this truth.

Now here's an argument that you skip every single time. Why do most Protestants believe in the Trinity? They rejected all kind of things...except for that belief. These fundys look carefully through the Bible and they see the Trinity and they believe in it. Trinity is NOT tradition.

You can reject Origen's influence on Catholicism all you want, the fact is he was one of the most influencial of your ECF's. As to ignoring Scriptures that show the Trinity to be a manmade doctrine, the only way you can continue to accept the Trinity as Biblical is to ignore all the Scriptures that show it is a false doctrine based on philosophy and not God's truth.

Again, i'll repeat it, I look through the bible an verses and I see, personally, that the Trinity is real. I don't care about what anyone or everyone else feels. The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ proceed from the Father and preexist all things. They have all the capabilities and nature of God Himself. That's what we see, as a whole.

[Aineo]

The reformers came out of Catholicism and accepted as God's truth the few Scriptures that are used (out of context in most cases) to try to show the deity of the Lord. Those reformers who rejected the Trinity based on Scripture were declared heretics and burned by both Catholics and the Reformers. However, you cannot obfuscate the meaning of John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and etc. except by appealing to philosophy, semantics, and tradition. From Genesis through Revelation we are told there is but one true God, the Father; not a Godhead composed of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, this is an inventions of Greeks influenced by their pagan origins and Greek philosophy.

[Believer]

The reformers came out of Catholicism and accepted as God's truth the few Scriptures that are used (out of context in most cases) to try to show the deity of the Lord. Those reformers who rejected the Trinity based on Scripture were declared heretics and burned by both Catholics and the Reformers. However, you cannot obfuscate the meaning of John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and etc. except by appealing to philosophy, semantics, and tradition. From Genesis through Revelation we are told there is but one true God, the Father; not a Godhead composed of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, this is an inventions of Greeks influenced by their pagan origins and Greek philosophy.

What the verses you keep bring up imply is that here is one God. Okay, yes there is one God. yes, Jesus is a man. Jesus was also preexisted all of creation, inherits all of the Father's creation, and is the Lord and Savior that God declares only He is. God is God. Thomas even calls Jesus "Lord and God". Jesus proceeded from God and possess His nature. The Holy Spirit proceeds from God also, and is portrayed as a able personality that is responsive, not an inanimate projection. Etc..the Reformers saw all of this, they believed that Jesus was divine and they believed the Spirit was divine.

The Trinity doesn't have any analogues in other religions.
The concept of the Father, Son, and Spirit is derived soley from the Bible.

[Aineo]

Eve changed God's word just as you have changed God's word when you post that Jesus has God's nature. Hebrews tells us Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature not that Jesus has God's nature. In Acts 2 Peter tells us why the Son preexisted when he told the Jews the man Jesus Christ is the predestined Messiah based on God's foreknowledge. In Colossians Paul tells us the Son is the first-born of all creation, which precludes the Son being God since God was not born. Now you can try to define first-born to mean something other than first-born but to do so is to use philosophy to interpret God's word and also requires you ignore the Messianic prophesies the Lord fulfilled.

What did Jesus pray in John 17?

John 17:20-21
20 "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.

John 17:23
23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me. NAS

So where is the Holy Spirit who seals us? The Son is in the Father, the Father is in the Son and the Son is in us. The Holy Spirit is the Father, not an emanation from the Father.

[Believer]

Eve changed God's word just as you have changed God's word when you post that Jesus has God's nature. Hebrews tells us Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature not that Jesus has God's nature.

Only God is our Lord, Savior, Redeemer, etc. The Bible shows this. Jesus is these things. This hints that Jesus is infact God. The Biblical evidecne for this is in the hidden thread.
Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature because He possesses God's nature.

In Acts 2 Peter tells us why the Son preexisted when he told the Jews the man Jesus Christ is the predestined Messiah based on God's foreknowledge.

This doesn't go against anything.

In Colossians Paul tells us the Son is the first-born of all creation, which precludes the Son being God since God was not born. Now you can try to define first-born to mean something other than first-born but to do so is to use philosophy to interpret God's word and also requires you ignore the Messianic prophesies the Lord fulfilled.

Jesus was there when all was created, and He preexisted this physical universe. He couldn't have been "born". He isn't even a part of creation.

So where is the Holy Spirit who seals us? The Son is in the Father, the Father is in the Son and the Son is in us. The Holy Spirit is the Father, not an emanation from the Father.

The Spirit is discussed shortly after. it's written that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. How do you interpret that?
He comes form the Father like Jesus came from the Father. The Father is somewhat of a static figure who sits on His throne.

The point of the Trinitarian Holy Spirit is that He has personality, in the sense that He is responsive and sentient, being God. You could pray to the Holy Spirit and ask Him to give you comfort and be with you and He would hear this and respond.

[Aineo]

Only God is our Lord, Savior, Redeemer, etc. The Bible shows this. Jesus is these things. This hints that Jesus is infact God. The Biblical evidecne for this is in the hidden thread.
Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature because He possesses God's nature.

Do you believe once saved always saved, which is hinted at in Scripture when you ignore all the Scriptures that show this to be a false doctrine? Do you believe the Jesus only cult is correct since their interpretation of the verses used to support the Trinity can also hint their theology?

You keep posting that the Lord has God's nature when Scripture tells us the Lord is the exact representation of God's nature. God's nature is love and perfection. The Lord lived the perfect human life by emptying Himself of His human ego and becoming God's perfect servant.

As to the balance of your post you are still avoiding questions by rationalizing what is recorded in John 17 so you can believe a false doctrine.

[Believer]

Do you believe once saved always saved, which is hinted at in Scripture when you ignore all the Scriptures that show this to be a false doctrine? Do you believe the Jesus only cult is correct since their interpretation of the verses used to support the Trinity can also hint their theology?

Jesus is a man and there's only one God. We both believe this and we both accept the verses you offer to support this. There's more to the whole picture, which you'd just assume is bogus and would ignore it. Shameful!

You keep posting that the Lord has God's nature when Scripture tells us the Lord is the exact representation of God's nature. God's nature is love and perfection. The Lord lived the perfect human life by emptying Himself of His human ego and becoming God's perfect servant.

Isa 43:15
"I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King."

John 1:49
Nathanael answered him, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."

This is one of many examples.
God is: Lord and Creator of Israel and God is the Holy One, Jesus, King of Israel.

How can Jesus be a servant of God, and God? The Father isn't going to come to earth and save us. His will is His will and works a way which exists regardless if we choose to accept or not. God saves us through the Messiah, the Holy One, God's Son who is literally a chip off the old block.

The Holy Spirit's role is to be God wherever the Father's presence is. This personality that proceeded from the Father carries out the Father's will in us. We can take advantage of Him, our advocate and counselor, God with us. This isn't an angel or anything like that. You'll quickly run out of alternative conclusions except: what I just said above.

[Aineo]

Psalms 2
1
Why are the nations in an uproar,
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand,
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His
Anointed:
3 "Let us tear their fetters apart,
And cast away their cords from us!"
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury:
6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee. NAS

You need to take a trip through the OT prophesies. The Messiah is God's anointed King, and the servant God formed in His mother's womb.

[Believer]

Don't you get it, Aineo? This isn't a battle to see whose verses are more right than the others, both verses are correct. Jesus is the Son of God and the Annointed AND He is God. I nailed it on the head with Jesus, and the Spirit too. These aren't invented doctrines, that the two are divine and of one substance with the Father, it's matter of accepting scripture and not ingnoring what don't sound right.

Isa 44:6
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isa 43:11
"I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no Savior besides Me.

Picture Isaiah having a vision of the Father and Christ together and the Father says "I" and Christ says "even I"...am the Lord, the only Savior there's gonna be.

And the Spirit is one substance with the Father, proceeding from Him and all that jive. The Spirit is God and has personality.

By accepting this, would that in your mind pose a threat to monotheism?

Only Jesus as a man was formed in Mary's womb. Jesus Himself, the divine Jesus, was preexistent, Lord of Hosts, the Redeemer, the first and last. He emptied Himself of His divine power and became a humble man, there's a wonderful selection in I think Phillipians that states this.

[Aineo]

How many times do I have to post the Hebrew Law of Agency before you understand that Jesus is the King of kings, Lord of lords, Savior, and etc. because God anointed, appointed, and highly exalted the man Jesus Christ so that at His name every knee both in heaven and on earth will bow? When you posit that Jesus is God you label Jesus, Peter, and Paul as well as the Holy Spirit liars.

Tell me Believer why do Catholics view the Pope as the Vicar of Christ and the visible head of a visible church? The answer is you interpret Matthew 18:18 by appealing to the law of agency and then refuse to see that God used this same law to bestow on Jesus titles that also belong to God.

Now, this thread deals with the Holy Spirit and I have let it drift off topic long enough. Now do you think you can address the OP?

[Believer]

How many times do I have to post the Hebrew Law of Agency before you understand that Jesus is the King of kings, Lord of lords, Savior, and etc. because God anointed, appointed, and highly exalted the man Jesus Christ so that at His name every knee both in heaven and on earth will bow? When you posit that Jesus is God you label Jesus, Peter, and Paul as well as the Holy Spirit liars.

Tell me Believer why do Catholics view the Pope as the Vicar of Christ and the visible head of a visible church? The answer is you interpret Matthew 18:18 by appealing to the law of agency and then refuse to see that God used this same law to bestow on Jesus titles that also belong to God.

Jesus isn't a human being in his nature. He preexisted Adam and all men, and creation. Through Him all things were made. Jesus is the Lord and King because He is one with the Father in substance and being. Just because you wish not to believe this doesn't make it false. He emptied himself of his former preexistant glory, taking the form of a humble man. Phillipians 2 puts it well. He fulfilled his role, it wasn't a choice for Him.

Now, this thread deals with the Holy Spirit and I have let it drift off topic long enough. Now do you think you can address the OP?

I've gone over the Holy Spirit extensively, explaining what He is in the Bible. He is one in substance with the God the Father, and is His active presence. This idea doesn't go against the OP verses. In fact, it takes into account for other verses that you'd just assume throw away. This concept accounts fo the Spirit as an Advocate and Counselor that proceeds from the Father and speaks and acts and gives power...which shows the Spirit possess personality. He is manifest as a dove during the Baptism of Christ and is mentioned separately again from the Father in Matt 28:19 (I think??). I've said many thing about the Spirit, giving very strong well given arguments that deserve more of a strong response or perhaps agreement.

And the Spirit is one substance with the Father, proceeding from Him and all that jive. The Spirit is God and has personality

The Holy Spirit's role is to be God wherever the Father's presence is. This personality that proceeded from the Father carries out the Father's will in us. We can take advantage of Him, our advocate and counselor, God with us. This isn't an angel or anything like that. You'll quickly run out of alternative conclusions except: what I just said above.

The Spirit is discussed shortly after. it's written that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. How do you interpret that?
He comes form the Father like Jesus came from the Father. The Father is somewhat of a static figure who sits on His throne.

The point of the Trinitarian Holy Spirit is that He has personality, in the sense that He is responsive and sentient, being God. You could pray to the Holy Spirit and ask Him to give you comfort and be with you and He would hear this and respond.

The Holy Spirit is this God's sentience and presence manifested in a person proceeding from God, thus is God and of God's nature.
Because the Father sits on His throne, and the Holy Spirit is God in those who believe...granting power, strength, fueling his conscience with what God teaches, etc, the Spirit being the Trinitarian Holy Spirit makes sense.


You will walk away eventually and know that either the Holy Spirit is of one substance with the Father, etc all that which I've said about Him, or that it does have strong basis and support in scripture for the belief...it's not made up baloney.

[Aineo]

Most of what came out of the Catholic/Orthodox church councils was made up baloney. About the only concept they got right is Jesus is our Savior.

You have interpreted some verses to establish the Holy Spirit is a distinct person based on Platonic and Aristotelian philosophy heavily influenced by Gnosticism and ignored all the Scriptures that show the Holy Spirit is another designation for the Father.

[Believer]

Most of what came out of the Catholic/Orthodox church councils was made up baloney. About the only concept they got right is Jesus is our Savior.

You have interpreted some verses to establish the Holy Spirit is a distinct person based on Platonic and Aristotelian philosophy heavily influenced by Gnosticism and ignored all the Scriptures that show the Holy Spirit is another designation for the Father.

You're overcomplicating what I'm saying. What I say is based on the scripture. Gnosticism and platonism have very little to do with the Holy Spirit. The Church Council did what I just did, they put the pieces together.
Read scripture like John 14:26 and John 15:26 and it states plainly that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father He will send the HolySpirit to us as a real prescence of God that is portrayed to have personality. The scripture just doesn't show the Holy Spirit as the Father Himself, literally, in your sense. No one can see the Father and the Father does not reside in this world...there'd be alot of lightening from Sinai! The HolySpirit is an active agent for the Father and executes His Will, like Christ executes the Father's will. The Father is the Godhead.

The only abstracting here is putting the verses together and understanding what is being said.

[Aineo]

The concept the Holy Spirit is another person separate from and an emanation from God is right out of Gnosticism, which believes that a holy God cannot touch or indwell evil flesh. Gnosticism also believes that all flesh (saved or not) is evil. The church councils depended on Greek philosophy and ignored those Scriptures that tell us the Holy Spirit is in fact God, not a person seperate from God.

Now, the fact you have not really contributed to the other threads dealing with the Trinity and have tried to take this thread off topic is proof to anyone who reads this thread as well as the other threads that you cannot get around all the Scriptures that show the Trinity is nothing more than an invention of Greeks influenced by Greek paganism, political pressure from the pagan Emperor Constantine, and Greek philosophy so heavily influenced by Gnosticism they destroyed the foundation of Christianity, which is the apostles and the prophets.

[Believer]

The concept the Holy Spirit is another person separate from and an emanation from God is right out of Gnosticism, which believes that a holy God cannot touch or indwell evil flesh. Gnosticism also believes that all flesh (saved or not) is evil. The church councils depended on Greek philosophy and ignored those Scriptures that tell us the Holy Spirit is in fact God, not a person seperate from God.

Wrong. This concept is straight from the Bible which flat out tells us the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is our Advocate. That belief is wrong because Jesus was God incarnate and was perfect and not evil.
You're trying to escape something very obvious and put forth in scripture, I don't get that.

Now, the fact you have not really contributed to the other threads dealing with the Trinity and have tried to take this thread off topic is proof to anyone who reads this thread as well as the other threads that you cannot get around all the Scriptures that show the Trinity is nothing more than an invention of Greeks influenced by Greek paganism, political pressure from the pagan Emperor Constantine, and Greek philosophy so heavily influenced by Gnosticism they destroyed the foundation of Christianity, which is the apostles and the prophets.

I've explained it well the last post. Rather than importing pointless garbage into the argument, why don't you personally show how I'm wrong using my arguments and the verses that I use for evidence? if I'm so wrong and you're so right that won't be challenge.

[Aineo]

You have not explained anything, you have simply parroted by rote what you have been taught. When we take the whole word of God into this discussion your theology tumbles like a house of cards. If I was going to believe any non-Catholic who also appeals to the early church councils it would be a member of the Greek Orthodox Church since they are not so blind and are also honest enought to accept the fact the ECF's used Greek philosophical concepts to define their church doctrines, which is something Catholics refuse to acknowledge.

And BTW, appealing to a Catholic translation of the Greek is not going to make you case, especially since the Catholic Church has their own versions of the NIV, RSV, and other Protestant Bibles that call the NAB translation into question. This is like the Jehovah's Witnesses appealing to the New World Translation.

[Believer]

I've explained it well the last post. Rather than importing pointless garbage into the argument, why don't you personally show how I'm wrong using my arguments and the verses that I use for evidence? if I'm so wrong and you're so right that won't be challenge.

I wait patiently. I looked for myself and I believe what I see, and you're looking for ways to escape my proposal as I expected. Most Protestants believe this. That argument has no pull whatsoever. These verses are pretty much the same in all Bibles. So that also has no pull.

[Aineo]

Your arguments are not worth the time to refute, since you are appealing to philosophical concepts imported into Christianty by pagan Greeks as well as a translation that is less than credible. You are also ignoring the overwhelming Biblical evidence that the Tinity is a doctrine based on the traditions of men.

You Catholics appeal to your ECF's, but only when it is convenient since their "holy traditions" cannot be found in Scripture. However, when we appeal to your ECF's you ignore what is found on Catholic sites, which includes how not all your ECF's quoted "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" in Matthew 28:19. Some of them used the phase "in Jesus name", just as all other references to baptism are referred to from Acts forward.

Your arguments are superficial and revolve around just two verses, which ignores all the OT and NT Scripture that can be used to disprove your less than profound explanation.

And like I have posted before the fact the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father who is spirit does not establish the Holy Spirit is a seperate and distinct person any more than your spirit is a seperate and distinct person.

[Believer]

Your arguments are superficial and revolve around just two verses, which ignores all the OT and NT Scripture that can be used to disprove your less than profound explanation.

And like I have posted before the fact the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father who is spirit does not establish the Holy Spirit is a seperate and distinct person any more than your spirit is a seperate and distinct person.

Again, you're playing the numbers game with scripture, which is not the approach you should take. If something is stated, how many times does it need to be stated? Jesus said on many instances that the Father will send an advocate or counselor of the Father. It's more than two verses. You're taking the argument about the Spirit and forcing it into verses where Jesus emphasizes his relationship with the Father and using that as "proof" that the Spirit isn't Advocate of the father and proceeds from Him, which is mentioned many times in Gospels, particularly John. From my persective, you are in very serious denial, based on what I noticed and stated above.

I personally don't see the other verses as proving other verses as wrong, some things are spoken of at different places.

Explain to me why a bunch of verses in the Bible would be void if they supported Trinitarian doctrine? You seriously don't see a major problem with that? It's like you want to cover it up on purpose cause ya don't like it.

[Aineo]

Again, you're playing the numbers game with scripture, which is not the approach you should take. If something is stated, how many times does it need to be stated?

Good question. Now since Jesus said their is only one true God and Paul wrote that for Christians there is but one God, the Father just how many verses does it take to show the Trinity is a manmade doctrine so you will stop calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

[Believer]

Good question. Now since Jesus said their is only one true God and Paul wrote that for Christians there is but one God, the Father just how many verses does it take to show the Trinity is a manmade doctrine so you will stop calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

Trinity = one God (in three persons). The Father being the Godhead. I don't see a conflict here if you take into account more than your verses. You're not putting it all together, Aineo. It's stated in scripture that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and communicates and acts on what the Father wills. He's just not portrayed as the Father Himself, but a personality that proceeded from Him. This makes sense that the Father sends Jesus and the Spirit to earth. the Father resides in heaven, if not above heaven. The Bible states that no one has ever seen the Father. the Father as a personality in the Trinity isn't the Holy Spirit that manifested as fire over the Apostles. The Holy Spirit is the Father's prescence, but in a very real way. This Spirit has personality and is of the Father. What makes you think that God has to exist as a one-bodied being? He's not limited like we are. I know it sounds unusual, but it's supported in scripture. It's a matter of accepting what's given to us.

[Aineo]

What you see and what the Bible tells us are not the same. Paul explained who the "one God" is by adding "the Father", which agrees with the prophets and the Lord. When Yehovah said through the prophets He would pour out His Spirit on all mankind Yehovah did not say He would send another person called the Holy Spirit to mankind. Your concept of the Father is an impersonal grey haired dude sitting in heaven letting others do His work, when Scripture tells us that God is personally involved with every human who puts their faith in His only begotten Son.

The Godhead of the church councils is a pagan concept adopted by Greeks influenced by Gnosticism, and no matter how you try to obfuscate and ignore God's word, His word will prevail over Greek philosophy.

[Believer]

What you see and what the Bible tells us are not the same. Paul explained who the "one God" is by adding "the Father", which agrees with the prophets and the Lord. When Yehovah said through the prophets He would pour out His Spirit on all mankind Yehovah did not say He would send another person called the Holy Spirit to mankind. Your concept of the Father is an impersonal grey haired dude sitting in heaven letting others do His work, when Scripture tells us that God is personally involved with every human who puts their faith in His only begotten Son.

Jesus emphasized to His apostles that the Father would send them an advocate, and counselor, called the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father. There's no dispute here, okay. That's clear in scripture. Maybe you could elaborate on why the Holy Spirit is portrayed as a personality that proceeds from the Father.

That's it, though, the Father isn't letting "others" do His work. Himself, God, is doing the work. Jesus and the Spirit came forth from Him and share the same nature and being with Him. If we have more than one personality, we're nuts. Apparently God can exist in such a way and retain coherence and unity. It's a Mystery, with a capital "M". So, God does His work...the will of God is centralized in the Father, making Him the Godhead.

The Godhead of the church councils is a pagan concept adopted by Greeks influenced by Gnosticism, and no matter how you try to obfuscate and ignore God's word, His word will prevail over Greek philosophy

Something this hopelessly ingrained in scripture couldn't be an "imported" belief from Hellenistic philosophy. There's no analogue that exists like the Christian concept of God. There's alittle abstract thinking involved, to piece the puzzle together. I don't see how you'd want to give a pass to a passage like Matthew 28:19. The Trinity can't be an imported idea if it IS in the Bible.

[Aineo]

Hey, I have no dispute with what Jesus said, I dispute and totally reject your interpretation of what Jesus said. Jesus did not contradict the OT prophets and Catholicism does contradict both what Jesus and the OT prophets said.

I will believe both the prophets and the Lord before I will believe pagan Greeks.

[Believer]

Hey, I have no dispute with what Jesus said, I dispute and totally reject your interpretation of what Jesus said. Jesus did not contradict the OT prophets and Catholicism does contradict both what Jesus and the OT prophets said.

I will believe both the prophets and the Lord before I will believe pagan Greeks.

Then why does Jesus say the Father will send the Holy Spirit that proceeds from Him and that "he" the Holy Spirit would be our Advocate and Counselor?

John 14:16-17;26
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.

John 15:26
"When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.

Matthew 28:19
Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

Tell me specifically how the Trinitarian concept of the Holy Spirit that I've been explaining to you many times is wrong, based on these verses give. Tell me your interpretation of them. Ya can't cheat out on that last verse either, okay.

[Aineo]

Like I have already posted your appealing to the NAB is like a JW appealing to the New World Translation.

John 14:16-17
16 "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you. NAS

John 14:16-17
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. NKJV

In the OT God is the Helper.

Psalms 10:12-14

12 Arise, O LORD; O God, lift up Thy hand.
Do not forget the afflicted.
13 Why has the wicked spurned God?
He has said to himself, "Thou wilt not require it."
14 Thou hast seen it, for Thou hast beheld mischief and vexation to take it into Thy hand.
The unfortunate commits himself to Thee;
Thou hast been the helper of the orphan. NAS

Psalms 30:10

10 "Hear, O LORD, and be gracious to me;
O LORD, be Thou my helper." NAS

Psalms 54:4

4 Behold,
God is my helper;
The Lord is the sustainer of my soul. NAS

Would you go to a surgeon that applied only two sentences out of a surgical technique to a life saving procedure? You can ignore the whole word of God (which Catholicism/Orthodoxy does all the time), but I will take the Lord's advise:

Matthew 4:4
4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'" NAS

Who is cheating on Matthew 28:19? "Name" in this verse is singular not plural so what is God's name? Yehovah is the name used by the Jews, which included Matthew who was a Jew. Are we saved by the name of Yehovah? Nope, we are saved through faith in the name of the man Jesus (Yehoshuah) Christ. This verse is a great proof text for the Jesus only oneness cult who like Catholicism rip the Bible apart to establish their false doctrines.

Your problem is you appeal to interpretations of a few select verses pulled out of context instead of studying the word of God to understand God's truth.

Your theology is built of straw, not the solid foundation of the apostles and the prophets.