Beware of this Different Gospel of Christ

[John 10:10]

Let's just see if my topic is allowed to remain and stay on topic.

There are some who teach that Jesus is a created being. Beware of this different Gospel of Christ. It has no redeeming value and will not save any sinner from their sins.

Galatians 1:6-9

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Blessings

[Aineo]

You have ever right to start a thread and no right to highjack a thread. Now, beware a different gospel of Jesus Christ applies to all who do not teach what the Bible actually teaches. What bothers you about addressing the Messianic prophecies on the other thread?

Tell me John10:10 have you researched when and how the doctrine of the Trinity came into being or are you out to defend a doctrine of men that when the whole word of God is taken as a unit falls apart?

What group of people were abandoning Him who called you by the grace of Christ and tried to distort the gospel of Christ? The answer is Greek Gnostics. If you take the time to research the ECF's who developed the doctrine of the Trinity you will find they were influenced by their pagan backgrounds and Greek philosophy including Gnosticism.

2 Timothy 3:1-7
3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. NAS

Since we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ why oppose an honest discussion of OT prophecies? We are not save by grace through faith in the Trinity.

[John 10:10]

In Matt 3:

16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

In John 10:32 Jesus declares,

"I and the Father are one."

In John 15 Jesus declares:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

In John 17:5 Jesus delcares,

"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

This doctrine of the Trinity was fully revealed and manifested on the Day of Pentecost when Peter declared these words in Acts 2:

32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

To those who are Jesus' children and have the gift of the Holy Spirit, no other proof is necessary.

To those who are not Jesus' children, no other proof is possible.

[Aineo]

Okay.

John 5:44
44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
NAS

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

Romans 16:27
27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
NAS

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

Galatians 3:20
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. NAS

How do you understand the "only true God", "only wise God", "but one God, the Father", and "God is only one"?

[John 10:10]

Aineo writes,

How do you understand the "only true God", "only wise God", "but one God, the Father", and "God is only one"?

Because Jesus declares,

"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

When one fails to understand and believe that Jesus as the Word of God existed and shared glory with the Father before the world was, then one misunderstands all the other words that Jesus spoke and cannot receive the revelation that God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.

If your sins are covered by the blood of Jesus, and you have been given the gift of eternal life that Jesus gives, then rejoice with us who believe in the eternal Lord Jesus Christ, because:

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13-14

Blessings

[Aineo]

You did not answer my questions. However, since you quoted John 17:5, lets take a closer look at John 17 by jumping down to vs. 22 & 23

John 17:22-23
22 "And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me. NAS

Now lets look at Isaiah 48:

Isaiah 48:11
11 "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another.
NAS

Jesus gave the glory He had to the apostles. Can you reconcile this with what God said through Isaiah?

Ephesians does not establish the Trinity, in fact vs. 3 tells us Yehovah is Jesus' God.

Ephesians 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
NAS

Jesus Himself tells us that Yehovah is His God as well as His Father.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" NAS

Now, could you address my questions?

[John 10:10]

Aineo writes,

You did not answer my questions. However, since you quoted John 17:5, lets take a closer look at John 17 by jumping down to vs. 22 & 23

When you deal with John 17:5, then I will deal with your other questions.

As I said, when one fails to understand and believe that Jesus as the Word of God existed and shared glory with the Father before the world was, then one misunderstands all the other words that Jesus spoke and cannot receive the revelation that God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.

It seems also you have departed from the Jesus Christ Forum Statement of Faith which reads:

STATEMENT OF FAITH

We accept the scriptures as our only authority in matters of faith and practice and our understanding of Bible doctrine leads us inexorably to believe:

1. The scriptures of the Old & New Testament as being verbally inspired by God and inerrant and infallible in the original writings, and that they are of supreme and final authority.

2. In one God eternally existing in one essence, yet co-equal persons, the Trinity: Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

[Aineo]

Statements of faith can be changed to align with God's truth. Since I discussed what I am doing with the webmaster before I took my current position if you have a problem with my position take it up with my boss.

I did address John 17:5, by quoting Isaiah where God says He will not give His glory to another and then showed you in John 17:22-23 that Jesus gave His glory to others.

Now, are you going to address the whole word of God or are you simply going to defend a doctrine that is based on the traditions of men and does not agree with the OT prophecies concerning God's Messiah. I can show you with just the NT that the Trinity is a false doctrine if you will read every word that procedes from the mouth of God, not just those that have been pulled from context and interpreted by men.

[John 10:10]

Then change the "Jesus Christ Forum Statement of Faith" to agree with your statement of faith so that Christians who agree with the existing "Jesus Christ Forum Statement of Faith" clearly know where you are coming from.

You did not addressed John 17:5 by explaining how Jesus could have SHARED glory with the Father before the world was.

You misunderstand Isaiah 48:11 where God says,

"And My glory I will not give to another."

Verse 11 refers back to verse 5 where God says,

Therefore I declared them to you long ago, before they took place I proclaimed them to you, So that you would not say, 'My idol has done them, And my graven image and my molten image have commanded them.'

Therefore, verse 11 means this,

"And My glory I will not give to another idol."

Jesus gives His eternal glory to His children by giving the gift of the Holy Spirit to those that hear His voice (John 10:27), repent of their sins, and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins (Acts 2:38).

If this is your testimony as well, why do you not rejoice with us who have received the Lord of glory into our lives,

to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. (Col 1:27)

[Aineo]

The Holy Spirit is God and Jesus performed His miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit. So you are the one who does not understand Isaiah or even John 17.

Luke 11:13
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" NAS

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.NAS

Ephesians 3:14-19
14 For this reason, I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man; 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fulness of God. NAS

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8
7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. 8 Consequently, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. NAS

Does the following read like Paul taught the Trinity?

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

Now tell me John10:10 why are you avoiding answering my questions.

[John 10:10]

It's amazing to me that those who believe as you do concerning Jesus being a created being cannot rejoice with Christians who believe and know that Jesus is the eternal Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29), in whom there is forgiveness of sin, whereby He gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to those that receive God's grace (Acts 2:38).

If you have received the same grace of God and have been "born again" as Jesus declared in John 3:3-7, then rejoice with us.

If not, why not?

Blessings

[Aineo]

You are making a lot of assumptions. I know and believe that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Now, I do not know what translation you are using but where do you get "eternal"?

John 1:29

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
NAS

John 1:29

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
KJV

John 1:29

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
(from New International Version)

Tell me John10:10, what is more important defending a doctrine or believing God and preaching the gospel?

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
NAS

I can and do rejoice with, as you put it "Christians" who believe. Now what about those who do not believe God because of a manmade doctrine? Unlike many who raise doctrine above faith in the Lord Jesus Christ I have not posted people who accept or deny the Trinity are not saved based on doctrinal prejudice.

I have not questioned your salvation, I have questioned a doctrine and used Scriptures, which you refuse to address as the basis for questioning this doctrine. A doctrine that was first adopted at the First Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. where Jesus was first declared to be God and then expanded to include the Holy Spirit as the 3rd person of the Godhead in 381 A. D. at the First Council of Constantinople.

Here is the original Nicean Creed:

We believe in one God, father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible. And in one lord, Jesus Christ, the son of God, begotten from the father, only-begotten, that is from the being* of the father, God from God, light from light, true God from True God, begotten not made, one in being** with the father, through whom all things came to be, both those in heaven and those on the earth, who because of us human beings and because of our salvation descended, became enfleshed, became human, suffered and rose on the third day, ascending to the heavens, coming to judge the living and dead. And in the Holy Spirit. The catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes those who say: there was when he was not; and before being born he was not; or that he came to be from things that are not; or that the Son of God is from a different hypostasis or ousia or mutable or changeable.
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... icene.html

Here is the ammended Nicean Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
of all that is, seen and unseen.


We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... ne381.html

Now what did the prophets write?

Psalm 2:7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee.

And:

Joel 2:27-28
27 "Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God
And there is no other;
And My people will never be put to shame.

28 "And it will come about after this
That I will pour out My
Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.


Now why can't you rejoice with those who reject a manmade doctrine who know that Jesus is the Lamb of God, is the only way to the Father, and is the only mediator between God and man?

[John 10:10]

Acts 13:33 declares what Psalms 2:7 means. Begotten refers to the resurrection of Jesus from the grave, not to His birth.

Since you say you have repented, been "born again" according to John 3:3-7, your sins are covered by the shed blood of Jesus on Calvary's cross, and you are now saved by His resurrection life (Rom 5:10), having received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), then I rejoice with you in your salvation, God's grace.

All of this is true for Christians who believe and know Jesus is Lord (Acts 2:36), ONE with the Father and Holy Spirit in the ONE Godhead. So rejoice with us as well.

Blessings

[Aineo]

Apparently you did not read what I posted. I do rejoice with those who are saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ the man appointed (or made) our Prince and Savior by God.

As to the resurrection the Bible tells us that Jesus is the first-born from the dead because God raised Jesus from the dead, not that God begot His Son through the resurrection. Your interpretation denies that in John's gospel Jesus told the Jews He is the Son of God. God begot the Son in eternity past in His plan for mankind (John 1:1) and in the flesh when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.

[John 10:10]

Aineo writes,

Apparently you did not read what I posted. I do rejoice with those who are saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ the man appointed (or made) our Prince and Savior by God.

It seems by your words that you only rejoice with those who are saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ the man, not with 99.99% of Christians who are saved by the shed blood of the Jesus Christ who was the Word of God who became flesh (John 1:1-2, 14), and is now exalted at the right hand of God the Father as Lord (Acts 2:33, 36).

Since you say you are "are saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ the man appointed (or made) our Prince and Savior by God," then I rejoice with you.

I hope also you can rejoice with us who do not believe in this created man Jesus, but have found salvation in the eternal Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings

[Aineo]

John10:10 if you want to play word games that is up to you. But as for me, I will believe every word that procedes from the mouth of God, and among those words is that Jesus is a man who God highly exalted and who God made both Prince and Savior. Now if you cannot rejoice that some people take God at His word that is your problem.

Now, that you have judged me can you respond to this post:

Okay.

John 5:44
44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
NAS

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

Romans 16:27
27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
NAS

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

Galatians 3:20
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. NAS

How do you understand the "only true God", "only wise God", "but one God, the Father", and "God is only one"?

I should rephrase my question since I know you can respond to my questions, so my question is will you responds to my questions.

[John 10:10]

Aineo,

It is you that is playing word games. You said this in the "Jesus Christ is Lord" post,

How many times must I post that I do rejoice with those who have found salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ?

but you did not say it here.

Since you seem to say you rejoice with those who have found salvation in the shed blood of the Jesus Christ who was the Word of God who became flesh (John 1:1-2, 14), and is now exalted at the right hand of God the Father as Lord (Acts 2:33, 36), that's the end of the discussion for me.

Blessings

[Aineo]

If you can add words to Scripture I think I should be allowed to actually quote Scripture. Now, will you respond to my questions or do you find God's truth hard to respond to?

[John 10:10]

Aineo,

All of the answers I would give you are based on the fact that Jesus is the eternal Lord of Glory; who was, who is, and who is to come.

Since you reject this eternal Lord Jesus Christ in favor of your created man Jesus, I have no desire to debate this point further with you.

Since you are comfortable in the salvation of the Jesus you believe in, and we also are completely assured of salvation in the Lord Jesus we believe in, let's just agree to disagree on this point, continue to glorify God in our lives, and enjoy Him forever.

Blessings

[Aineo]

So all the answers you would give me would ignore the plain language understanding of God's word in defense of a doctrine?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' NAS

Mormon's, JW's, gay Christians, and others are "are comfortable in the salvation of the Jesus they believe in".

To start with a conclusion and then defend that conclusion is called circular reasoning. If you are comfortable with a doctrine that can be shown to be false then would I be obeying the Lord if I did not point out the problems with that doctrine?

[John 10:10]

Aineo,

Since you continue to carry on this discussion, it seems you must not believe that sinners can repent, believe in the shed blood of eternal Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of the their sins, be baptized in His Name, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit "who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph 1:14).

My purpose as a Christian is to share this Gospel of Christ with sinners, with those God is drawing to Himself (John 6:44). I know this Gospel of Christ saves because I have received the Holy Spirit just as Believers did on the Day of Pentecost, and just as the promise of Ephesians 1:14 declares.

If you choose to believe otherwise regarding who Jesus is, that is your decision, but I will not defend further the above Gospel of Christ whereby 99.99% of sinners have been saved for 2000 years.

Blessings

[Aineo]

I keep carrying on this discussion in an attempt to make you think instead of parroting a doctrine that Paul did not teach.

Galatians 1:6-9

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Blessings

John wrote his gospel about 30 years after Paul died, so how can you reconcile what Paul wrote with the doctrine of the Trinity? After all Paul wrote this to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

And Paul wrote this to Timothy:

1 Timothy 2:4-7
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
NAS

How do you go from one God, one mediator, and one man to one God/man who is part of a plural Godhead that is 3 not 1?

The answer is by interpreting John 1:1-15 and a few other Scriptures to show that Jesus (who was born of a woman in about 2 B.C.) existed before the beginning.

How did 1st century Jews and Greeks understand the concept of "logos"? Have you researched and studied this or simply accepted what other men have taught you?

2 Timothy 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.KJV

So lets do a bit of study shall we? Philo of Alexandria was a Hellenistic Jew and a philosopher. Here is a link to an article concerning Philo and the logos found in the Jewish Encyclopedia:

Philo considers these divine powers in their totality also, treating them as a single independent being, which he designates "Logos." This name, which he borrowed from Greek philosophy, was first used by Heraclitus and then adopted by the Stoics. Philo's conception of the Logos is influenced by both of these schools. From Heraclitus he borrowed the conception of the "dividing Logos" (????? t?µe??), which calls the various objects into existence by the combination of contrasts ("Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit," § 43 [i. 503]), and from Stoicism, the characterization of the Logos as the active and vivifying power. But Philo borrowed also Platonic elements in designating the Logos as the "idea of ideas" and the "archetypal idea" ("De Migratione Abrahami," § 18 [i. 452]; "De Specialibus Legibus," § 36 [ii. 333]). There are, in addition, Biblical elements: there are Biblical passages in which the word of Yhwh is regarded as a power acting independently and existing by itself, as Isa. lv. 11 (comp. Matt. x. 13; Prov. xxx. 4); these ideas were further developed by later Judaism in the doctrines of the Divine Word creating the world, the divine throne-chariot and its cherub, the divine splendor and its shekinah, and the name of God as well as the names of the angels; and Philo borrowed from all these in elaborating his doctrine of the Logos.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 1&letter=P

What did John have in mind when he used the word "logos"? God's divine plan for mankind that existed before the beginning, which became flesh and dwelled among us. This John 10:10 is how 1st century Jews as well as Greeks would have understood John's prologue.

The plan for the Son was eternal, the Son was not eternal. Jesus' own words cast doubt on the doctrine of the Trinity.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
KJV

Isaiah 9:6-7

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. KJV

Isaiah 9:6 is one OT prophecy that is used to try to prove the Trinity. However, look at those titles. Wonderful Counselor is the Holy Spirit, mighty God and everlasting Father are God the Father, and The Prince of Peace is the Son and all are included in a name not a person. This verse does not prove a Trinity is shows the oneness of God.

Who is the Holy Spirit?

Isaiah 42:1
"Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.
NAS

Isaiah 44:3-4
3'For I will pour out water on the thirsty land
And streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring,
And My blessing on your descendants;
4 And they will spring up among the grass
Like poplars by streams of water.'
NAS

Zechariah 4:6
6 Then he answered and said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.
NAS

Joel 2:28

28 "And it will come about after this
That I will pour out My
Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
NAS

The Holy Spirit is God who is spirit, not a seperate person in a triune Godhead. We are sealed with the Creator when we believe we are not sealed by a seperate entity that is a seperate person from the Father.

Deuteronomy 5:6-7
6'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

7'You shall have no other gods before Me.
NAS

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! NAS

YHWY is our elohiym, YHWY is one, not three.

[John 10:10]

Aineo,

What more can the created man Jesus you believe in give us that the eternal Lord Jesus Christ has not already given us and continues to give us as we fellowship with Him?

I can only conclude that you believe that the Jesus you believe in gives sinners the gift of salvation, while the eternal Lord Jesus Christ we believe in does not.

Otherwise, you would stop this argument, agree to disagree, and rejoice in the salvation we both enjoy in Christ Jesus.

Blessings

[Aineo]

Aineo,

What more can the created man Jesus you believe in give us that the eternal Lord Jesus Christ has not already given us and continues to give us as we fellowship with Him?

Obedience to God's truth.

I can only conclude that you believe that the Jesus you believe in gives sinners the gift of salvation, while the eternal Lord Jesus Christ we believe in does not.

Common sense alone will tell that Jesus the Messiah is not eternal since Jesus was born in about 2 B.C. So what was in the beginning with God? God's plan for the salvation of mankind.

Tell me John10:10 why are you ignoring what Paul wrote? It seems a tradition is more important than God's word to many Christians who "interpret" Scripture to come up with the Trinity.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
NAS

It takes an act of human will to interpret Scripture instead of studying all Scripture to understand God's truth.

I can and do rejoice with those who are saved by grace (an independent act of God and a free gift) through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus does not give us our salvation God does.

1 Corinthians 3:6-9
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. NAS

[Aineo]

Maybe this will help you understand the difference between "eternal" and "first-born of all creation".

1 Timothy 6:12-16
12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
NAS

Who is the "He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see"?

God is the only one who is sovereign and who alone possesses immortality. God appointed His Son Kings of kings and Lord of Lords when God appointed Jesus His heir (Hebrews 1:2).

[John 10:10]

Aineo,

I can only conclude that you don't undersatnd what happened in the upper room and when Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, in Acts 10 when Peter preached to Cornelius and his household, and in Acts 19 when Paul asked, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit since you believed?"

I can only conclude you have not received the gift of the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:38, and have not been "born again" according to Jesus words in John 3:3-7.

The gospel you preach is a different Gospel of Christ, and is rejected by Christians who have been born again and received the gift of the Holy Spirit who Jesus gives according to Acts 2:38.

It's as simple and as difficult as that.

Blessings

[Aineo]

John10:10 your comments only demonstrate that you either cannot or refuse to address God's word. Your comments also demonstrate that you would rather question my salvation than discuss God's word.

You know I can say the same thing about you, however I have not attacked you I have chosen to discuss God's word to see if we can learn God's revealed truth.

In the OT the Holy Spirit could and was given and revoked. In the NT the Holy Spirit is the "ernest" (deposit) of our inheritance. The Holy Spirit procedes from God who is spirit so why believe that God who is spirit has a spirit?

Now are you telling me that Paul lied in 1 Timothy 6 and 1 Corinthians 8?

[John 10:10]

Aineo,

Salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ is first and formost about relationship, relationship, relationship. I will discuss with you the "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col 1:27) relationship we have in the Lord Jesus Christ, but I will not discuss with you your interpretation of Scripture when it deals with the nature of who God is.

I believe you genuinely believe your understanding of Scripture is correct, but so do we who believe in ONE GOD existing in three Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We who believe this have repented, have been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, and have received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). Nothing more and nothing less is needed to enter into the eternal life relationship God gives through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings

[Aineo]

You keep referring to just one verse in Acts. Why? What did Peter preach on the Day of Pentecost?

Acts 2:14-39
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea, and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give heed to my words. 15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says,
'That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even upon My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.
19 'And I will grant wonders in the sky above,
And signs on the earth beneath,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 'The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
21 'And it shall be, that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him,
'I was always beholding the Lord in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 'Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will abide in hope;
27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
28 'Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
Thou wilt make me full of gladness with Thy presence.'
29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet. "'
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-- this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." NAS

There is not one hint that Peter believed or taught the Jews that Jesus is God. In fact look at verse 39, "Lord our God shall call to Himself".

Jesus said:

John 6:44-47
44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 "Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. NAS

Matthew 26:62-64
62 And the high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You make no answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?" 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."NAS

Jesus is the Son of God as the high priest said, but Jesus tells us the Son of Man will be (and is) sitting at the right hand of Power. All of the Messianic prophecies concern the Son of Man, not a God/man.

Jesus the Man exists as an eternal being since He was bodily assumed into heaven, but Jesus the Man did not exist before He was born of Mary.

In Acts 2 Peter told the Jews:

Acts 2:22-28

22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

In his gospel John expanded on what Peter said in verse 23 by his use of "logos" or the Word became flesh, the Word is the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.

[John 10:10]

Aineo,

The main point you ignore over and over and over is that the eternal Lord Jesus Christ we believe in and know by His indwelling presence gives to us the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same as He did on the Day of Pentecost as He was exalted to the right hand of God the Father.

Maybe this is not good enough for you, but it's good enough for the Lord Jesus we know, love and serve.

Blessings

[Aineo]

And you are ignoring those parts of God's word that refute the Trinity.

[John 10:10]

Ephesians 4 declares,

1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

I will rejoice with anyone who has been saved according to Acts 2:38, preserving the unity of the Spirit as best I can until we all attain to the unity of the faith.

Blessings

[Aineo]

You keep bringing up Acts 2:38, which is one of the verses the Jesus only oneness cult uses to show that Yehovah is now Yeshuah.

There is more to the Gospel of Jesus Christ than Acts 2:38.

Who gives us the ability to repent?

Romans 2:4
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? NAS

2 Timothy 2:23-26
24 And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. NAS

Who is the Holy Spirit?

Genesis 6:3
3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." NAS

Psalms 51:10-11
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Thy presence,
And do not take Thy Holy Spirit from me.
NAS

Isaiah 30:1
1
"Woe to the rebellious children," declares the LORD,
"Who execute a plan, but not Mine,
And make an alliance, but not of My Spirit,
In order to add sin to sin;
NAS

Isaiah 42:1-3
1
"Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.
2 "He will not cry out or raise His voice,
Nor make His voice heard in the street.
3 "A bruised reed He will not break,
And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish;
He will faithfully bring forth justice.
NAS


Isaiah 59:21
21 "And as for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever."
NAS

Isaiah 63:9-11
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them;
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.
11 Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses.
Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,
NAS

Ezekiel 36:22-27
22 "Therefore, say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD," It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 "And I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. NAS
Ezekiel 37:12-14
12 "Therefore prophesy, and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD," Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13 "Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. 14 "And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.' "
NAS

Ezekiel 39:25-29
25 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Now I shall restore the fortunes of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I shall be jealous for My holy name. 26 "And they shall forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. 27 "When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. 28 "Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. 29 "And I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD.
NAS

Joel 2:23-28
23 So rejoice, O sons of Zion,
And be glad in the LORD your God;
For He has given you the early rain for your vindication.
And He has poured down for you the rain,
The early and latter rain as before.
24 And the threshing floors will be full of grain,
And the vats will overflow with the new wine and oil.
25 "Then I will make up to you for the years
That the swarming locust has eaten,
The creeping locust, the stripping locust, and the gnawing locust,
My great army which I sent among you.
26 "And you shall have plenty to eat and be satisfied,
And praise the name of the LORD your God,
Who has dealt wondrously with you;
Then My people will never be put to shame.
27 "Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God
And there is no other;
And My people will never be put to shame.
28 "And it will come about after this
That I will pour out My
Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
Your old men will dream dreams,
Your young men will see visions.
NAS

Haggai 2:5
5 'As for the promise which I made you when you came out of Egypt, My Spirit is abiding in your midst; do not fear!' NAS

Zechariah 4:1-6
1 Then the angel who was speaking with me returned, and roused me as a man who is awakened from his sleep. 2 And he said to me, "What do you see?" And I said, "I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3 also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side. " 4 Then I answered and said to the angel who was speaking with me saying, "What are these, my lord?" 5 So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." 6 Then he answered and said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts. NAS
Matthew 12:18

Acts 2:17-20
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says,
'That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even upon My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.
19 'And I will grant wonders in the sky above,
And signs on the earth beneath,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 'The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
NAS

The Holy Spirit is God!

[John 10:10]

I keep bringing up Acts 2:38 because this is the clearest declaration in Bible Scripture of the Gospel of Christ that truly saves a sinner from his sins.

Let's summarize where this post has taken us:

(1) I started by stating that sinners should beware of saving Gospel of Christ that looks to a Jesus who was created.

(2) Aineo has assured us that those who believe in this Jesus who was created are just as saved, just as born again, and have received the gift of the Holy Spirit just as much as we who believe that Jesus was the eternal Word of God who became flesh, and now has been exalted to the right hand of God the Father as Lord.

(3) If God is not dishonored or blasphemed by the Jesus most Christians have believed in and by which we have been saved, and God manifests the gift of His saving grace to those who believe and receive the eternal Lord Jesus Christ, why do those who believe as does Aineo continue to insist that we should change our beliefs to agree with his beliefs, however Biblical he believes his beliefs to be?

(4) If Aineo is correct in the saving grace God has given him, and we are correct in the saving grace God has given us, it seems that God honors both of our beliefs and gives His saving grace to both, regardless of whether we honor Jesus as a created being or as the eternal Lord of Glory.

Blessings

[Aineo]

You summary on this thread is just as far off base as your summary on the other thread.

I will repeat, false prophets and cults base a lot of their false teaching on Acts 2:38. Your defense is that 99.9% of professed Christians believe the Trinity and therefore this doctrine is true, which ignores what Jesus said when He told us that "many are called, but few are chosen". And that many will call Lord, Lord and since they did not do the will of the Father Jesus will tell them "Depart from me, I never knew you".

Over 75% of the 99.9% of professed Christians you are appealing to practice spiritualism by contacting the dead, bending the knee to images, and etc., so your contention is they are okay in willfully disobeying God? I don't think so and the fact the Greeks who said it is okay to pray to the dead, bow and kneel before images are the men who developed the doctrine of the Trinity should cause you some concern and the fact it does not should also be a concern to you.

[John 10:10]

Jesus declared it best where to find eternal life in John 5:39-40,

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have eternal life."

Some search endlessly for eternal life in the Scriptures, but never find it.

Others simply come the the Lord Jesus Christ, and find the eternal life He gives.

Blessings

[Aineo]

Okay, now you are going to get an official warning. You have violated two of our Forum Rules on two threads. Think about what you post and read what others post before you judge.

Now, I have not posted that anyone can find eternal life other than by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Having faith in Jesus Christ as one's Savior does not require acceptance of a manmade doctrine that can be disproved by God's word. You have refused to address those Scriptures that call the Trinity into doubt, which tells me you can't.

[John 10:10]

Ban me from this forum if you must, but others can clearly see that I speak the truth of Bible Scripture.

[Aineo]

Ban me from this forum if you must, but others can clearly see that I speak the truth of Bible Scripture.

I don't have to ban you. However, you agreed to abide by our forum rules when you registered so your future here depends on you.

As to what Scripture tells us, anyone who reads and studies God's word and takes God at His word can discern there is only one God, not 3 gods in one.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
NAS

Ephesians 4:4-8
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,

"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men." NAS

Paul does not teach God is a triune God.

The Trinity is an invention of pagan Greeks.

[John 10:10]

Aineo writes,

The Trinity is an invention of pagan Greeks.

Yes, we believe as the "Statement of Faith" for this forum declares:

ONE God eternally existing in ONE essence, yet co-equal persons, the Trinity: Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

This Trinity, Father, Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit are clearly revealed in Acts 2:33-36. Those who repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is my testimony. I hope it's yours as well.

Blessings

[Aineo]

We accept the scriptures as our only authority in matters of faith and practice and our interpretation of Bible doctrine leads us inexorably to believe:

1. The scriptures of the Old & New Testament as being verbally inspired by God and inerrant and infallible in the original writings, and that they are of supreme and final authority.

Now, I have repeatedly posted Scripture from God's inerrant word that shows the doctrine of the Trinity is a false doctrine so we have a dichotomy don't we? I am in the position of enforcing our Forum Rules, which state this:

4. No slandering other posters or dealing in personalities. Some posters hold strong opinions about topics under discussion however, resorting to name calling or derogatory remarks aimed on any poster will not be tolerated. Take you personal differences to emails or private messages. Posting private communications or alluding to such communications on any public forum will be grounds for deactivation of your account and the deletion of your post.

7. No “I’m a better person than you are”. Our members run the gambit from people of faith to atheists. Keep this is mind and refrain from lifting yourself above all others in knowledge, value, orthodoxy, etc. For our Christian members remember there are many faiths but only One Lord, your denomination, doctrine, or understanding of the Bible may not be universally accepted by others.

So you see John10:10 I am not required to accept the Statement of Faith, however as the Administrator I am required to enforce our Forum Rules, which do not include accepting or defending the Trinity.

Apologetics is by its very nature a debate forum. So why not debate instead of appealing to a Statement of Faith that is denied by our atheist members, Muslim members, as well as all other members who are members of another religion.

Now, God word tells me this:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

Who is the "us" Paul is referring to in vs. 6? Paul tells us there is but one God and that God is the Father. Now can you reconcile this unequivocal statement with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit?

[John 10:10]

Aineo writes,

Who is the "us" Paul is referring to in vs. 6? Paul tells us there is but one God and that God is the Father. Now can you reconcile this unequivocal statement with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit?

The "us" in 1 Cor 8:6 refers back to verse 5 where it talks to those who believe in many gods (small g) and many lords (small l). Verse 6 reads,

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

How can Paul say one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things if the Lord Jesus Christ is not God?

[Aineo]

Since Paul is included in the word "us" is it your contention that Paul and the Christians in Corinth believed in "many gods (small g) and many lords (small l)". Paul would have had to use "they" not "us" to mean what you posted.

Jesus said no man can come to the Father except through Me, which makes Jesus our Lord. David prophecied the same thing:

Psalms 110:1
A Psalm of David.

The LORD says to my Lord:"Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." NAS

The Hebrew word translated LORD is YWYH, which would better be translated Yehovah.

Now to answer your question read Colossians 1:15.

Colossians 1:15
15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. NAS

[John 10:10]

Paul in verse 1 Cor 8:6 is declaring that for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

The clear and plain meaning of 1 Cor 8:6 is that Jesus Christ created all things, the same meaning as is revealed in John 1:3, All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Paul by revelation of the Holy Spirit spoke to those in 1 Cor 8:5 who believe in many gods and many lords, refuting this belief in verse 6 by declaring there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ through who are all things.

[Aineo]

Interesting how you avoid the obvious and try to deny the obvious by appealing to another Scripture that has to be interpreted to mean Jesus is God.

What do the phrases "only true God" and "but one God, the Father" mean to you? And BTW, I have not denied the truth of Colossians 1:15, Hebrews 1:2, or John 1:3 what I have done is question the Trinitarian interpretation of these Scriptures.

What did John mean with when he used the term "logos"? How did 1st century Jews and Greeks understand "logos", which corresponds with the Hebrew "dabar"?

For me to accept your explanation of Paul's intent in 1 Corinthians 8:6 I have to throw out basic English and Hebrew grammar. Your explanation does not make sense.

[John 10:10]

Aineo writes,

What do the phrases "only true God" and "but one God, the Father" mean to you?

The problem is that you stopped and did not quote the entire verse. The entire verse says,

Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

What do the phrases "and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by who are all things " mean to you?

Jesus declared "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30) The Jews of Jesus day certainly knew what Jesus meant when He declared this.

The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:33)

God's revelation of who Jesus is may not make sense to some, but it certainly does for those who receive Jesus as Lord God into their lives.

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God. (Romans 8:16)

Blessings

[Aineo]

Maybe you can answer this question for me. On many Christian message boards where I have asked what does "the only true God" and "but one God, the Father" mean to you, those who accept the Trinity side step the question by telling me I am taking those words out of context. Why are you side stepping my question?

I am not taking those phrases out of context. I am asking you to tell me what those two phrases mean and the fact you refuse to respond only tells me you cannot avoid the fact that both Jesus and Paul tell us there is only one God, the Father not a triune God composed of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I can explain all of your objections but I am not going to waste server space as long as you refuse to engage in a repectful dialogue that requires each of us answer the others questions.

Now I have answered your questions, when are you going to answer mine?

[John 10:10]

Aineo writes,

Now I have answered your questions, when are you going to answer mine?

No, you did not answer my questions, but I answered your questions in the previous post. Apparently you cannot receive the answers.

Blessings

[Aineo]

Okay, so you like all Trinitarians I have talked with refuse to tell me what "one true God" and "but one God, the Father" means to them. You have not answered this question.

Based on the fact you refuse to answer the above, which any child can do then I am left with no alternative but to believe that your faith is doctrine not Bible based and you refuse to address any Scripture that refutes your doctrine and answer any questions that call your doctrine into question.

[John 10:10]

Aineo,

You can conclude anything you want.

My belief is based on "there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; AND one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him" (1 Cor 8:6).

Blessings

[Aineo]

The more times I see Trinitarians avoid a direct question the more convinced I am you are wrong and God's word is totally correct.

John10:10 what does "one true God" and "one God, the Father" mean and appealing to a verse that uses the conjunction "and" that does not modify the Father but brings in another topic will not make your case.

[John 10:10]

Apparently the word "AND" in 1 Cor 8:6 does not mean anything to you.

For us who believe in the ONE true God, we believe in the ONE true God as revealed and minifested in the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

Nothing more can be added by me concerning what the Scriptures reveal regarding the ONE true God.

The podium is now all yours.

Blessings

[Aineo]

Apparently the word "AND" in 1 Cor 8:6 does not mean anything to you.

Actually the word "AND" does mean something to me, it means that Paul is making a distinction between God, the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. A distinction you have decided to ignore.

For us who believe in the ONE true God, we believe in the ONE true God as revealed and minifested in the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

This is a manmade doctrine. God is revealed throughout Scripture as one not a compound unity of three.

Nothing more can be added by me concerning what the Scriptures reveal regarding the ONE true God.

I agree but you are ignoring those Scriptures regarding the ONE true God by appealing to men.

The podium is now all yours.

You are correct, the podium is now all yours since you deny God's truth by teaching the Trinity.

[John 10:10]

Aineo writes,

Actually the word "AND" does mean something to me, it means that Paul is making a distinction between God, the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. A distinction you have decided to ignore.

The distinction Aineo fails to understand is that Paul declares is this in 1 Cor 8:6:

"One Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him."

Blessings

[Aineo]

Lets look at Genesis 1 shall we?

Genesis 1:3
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. NAS

God's first-born of all creation were the words He spoke. Our universe was created through His word, which is why the Word that became flesh is Jesus God's anointed King, chosen servant, and His appointed heir.

[John 10:10]

It's very interesting that you use Gen 1:3 to say that this refers to the creation of the pre-incarnation Jesus, the Word of God. No one I know of believes this.

My Bible says in Genesis 1:1 that God created the heavens and the earth, before He speaks the words of Genesis 1:3. Just who did this creation in Gen 1:1 work if God had to wait until verse three to do the rest of His creation?

Genesis 1:3 and following speaks of physical light.

John 1:4-5 speaks of spiritual Light - Jesus Christ, by whom are all things.

[Aineo]

Before God speaks He thinks. His words are the products of His predetermind plan for His creation. Reread what Peter preached in Acts 2, where he told the Jews:

Acts 2:23 ..this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. NAS

[John 10:10]

Your words and understanding of Scripture are nothing but double talk. No one here at this web site supports your beliefs. You may think you and the few that believe as you do are the only ones who truly understand who the Lord Jesus Christ really is. But He has declared Himself in Scripture to be the eternal Lord of Glory, and He will have the final say when everyone stands before Him at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

[Alpha]

Your words and understanding of Scripture are nothing but double talk.

Let's keep it respectful on both sides.

And for those unbelievers who might be reading, this is not an example of Christians dividing, this is an apologetics forum and we are discussing deep matters of the faith.

there is but one God, the Father

James 1:27 > Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Aineo, here it says God and the Father, is it making a distinction here?

Hebrews 1:8 > But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

Whatever this scripture means, I believe it. If it implies the Trinity, I believe it. If it does not, I believe it. When it's all said and done, we can declare ignorance on something and just say "whatever God means by it, that is what we believe."

[REAPER]

James 1:27 > Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Interesting, if that verse implies that God and the Father are distinct persons then perhaps the Trinity can be established as a True Doctrine. If that verse implicates that the Father and God are the same person, i.e., God is God over all and Father over all, then it needs to be examined in light of other passages which uses the conjunction "and" (kai) in the same context as James 1:27.

2 Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;

If James 1:27 implies that God "and" the Father are the same person then 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 would imply that Jesus is God and Savior.

There are 6 "Sharp's" rules, and one of the Grammar rules is known as Granville Sharp #1. When the copulative "and" (kai) is conjoined by 2 peronal nouns such as [God, Savior] (note that both nouns are singular and not proper), both of the nouns refers to the first-named person. In other words James 1:27 is implying that God is God "and" Father, and 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 which uses the same exact grammatical context implies that Jesus Christ is both God and Savior.

[Aineo]

Alpha, Hebrews 1:8 is from Psalm 45, have you read the whole Psalm and put taken all of Hebrews 1 into account? In verse 5 Psalm 2 is quoted, have you read Psalm 2?

Psalms 45
1 For the choir director; according to the Shoshannim. A Maskil of the sons of Korah. A Song of Love.

My heart overflows with a good theme;
I address my verses to the King;
My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the sons of men;
Grace is poured upon Thy lips;
Therefore God has blessed Thee forever.
3 Gird Thy sword on
Thy thigh, O Mighty One, In Thy splendor and Thy majesty!
4 And in Thy majesty ride on victoriously,
For the cause of truth and meekness and righteousness;
Let Thy right hand teach Thee awesome things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp;
The peoples fall under Thee;
Thine arrows are in the heart of the King's enemies.
6 Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom.
7 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Thy God, has anointed Thee
With the oil of joy above Thy fellows.
8 All Thy garments are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;
Out of ivory palaces stringed instruments have made Thee glad.
9 Kings' daughters are among Thy noble ladies;
At Thy right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir.
10 Listen, O daughter, give attention and incline your ear;
Forget your people and your father's house;
11 Then the King will desire your beauty;
Because He is your Lord, bow down to Him.
12 And the daughter of Tyre will come with a gift;
The rich among the people will entreat your favor.
13 The King's daughter is all glorious within;
Her clothing is interwoven with gold.
14 She will be led to the King in embroidered work;
The virgins, her companions who follow her,
Will be brought to Thee.
15 They will be led forth with gladness and rejoicing;
They will enter into the King's palace.
16 In place of your fathers will be your sons;
You shall make them princes in all the earth.
17 I will cause Thy name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the peoples will give Thee thanks forever and ever.
NAS

Psalms 2
1
Why are the nations in an uproar,
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand,
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His
Anointed:
3 "Let us tear their fetters apart,
And cast away their cords from us!"
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury:
6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee.
8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Thine inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Thy possession.
9 'Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron,
Thou shalt shatter them like earthenware.' "
10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
Take warning, O judges of the earth.
11 Worship the LORD with reverence,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Do homage to the Son, lest He become angry, and you perish in the way,
For His wrath may soon be kindled.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!
NAS

As to James 1:27, put that one verse in context with not ony the Old Testament but with what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians and you will find the NAS renders this verse better as:

James 1:27
27 This is pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father, to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. NAS

If you take the time to check the Greek the KJ translaters added "the" before Father.

James 1:27

religion 2356
Pure 2513
and 2532
undefiled 283
before 3844
3588
God 2316
and 2532
the 9999
Father 3962
this, 3778
is 2076
To visit 1980
the 9999
fatherless 3737
and 2532
widows 5503
in 1722
3588
affliction, 2347
their 846
unspotted 784
himself 1438
and 9999
to keep 5083
from 575
the 3588
world. 2889
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c) 1994 by Biblesoft)

So tell me Reaper do you build a whole doctrine on one or more Scripture passage that contradict other Scripture passages, Scripture passages that John10:10 has interpreted to defend the doctrine of the Trinity by ignoring words as well as elementary grammar?

Based on all of Paul's espistles and all the words in Paul's espistles can you honestly tell me Paul taught a triune God? If your answer is yes then Paul is not to be trusted since I don't see how anyone who understands elementary English can interpret 1 Corinthians 8 to show a triune God.

1 Corinthians 8:6

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. KJV

What does "but one God, the Father" mean?

If John 1:1-15 tells us the Word is a person seperate from God then John is confused when he later writes:

John 17:3

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. KJV

What does "the only true God" mean?

I did not just wake up one morning and decide to reject the doctrine of the Trinity, I took the Lord at His word when He told Satan:

Matthew 4:4-5
4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'" NAS

When we take "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" into account the doctrine of the Trinity falls like a house of cards.

Peter tells us why Jesus is our Savior:

Acts 5:31-32
31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." NAS

The "He" of verse 31 is the same Man Peter refers to as a Man in Acts 2:

Acts 2:22-28

22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him,
'I was always beholding the Lord in my presence; For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26'Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted; Moreover my flesh also will abide in hope; 27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay. 28'Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; Thou wilt make me full of gladness with Thy presence.' NAS

The same Man Paul refers to in Romans:

Romans 5:15
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. NAS

And in 1 Timothy:

1 Timothy 2:5-7
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NAS

There are 6 "Sharp's" rules, and one of the Grammar rules is known as Granville Sharp #1. When the copulative "and" (kai) is conjoined by 2 peronal nouns such as [God, Savior] (note that both nouns are singular and not proper), both of the nouns refers to the first-named person. In other words James 1:27 is implying that God is God "and" Father, and 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 which uses the same exact grammatical context implies that Jesus Christ is both God and Savior.

You can imply almost anything from Scripture when you pull a couple verses out of context of the whole Bible and/or just one phrase out of the context of all that both Peter and Paul wrote and said.

[REAPER]

If you take the time to check the Greek the KJ translaters added "the" before Father.

That argument is worthless, since "the" makes no difference at all. Contextually, God and "the" Father translates as God and Father. So the addition of the "the" makes no difference at all.

You can imply almost anything from Scripture when you pull a couple verses out of context of the whole Bible and/or just one phrase out of the context of all that both Peter and Paul wrote and said.

I have taken verses out of context? Good one! Show me where? Take a look at the Grammatical structure of Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13. There is one article present [tou] with "theou" and "soteros" similar to [tou kuriou hemon kai soteros Iesou Christou] (of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ), it clearly implies ONE person not TWO.

[Aineo]

I have taken verses out of context? Good one! Show me where? Take a look at the Grammatical structure of Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13. There is one article present [tou] with "theou" and "soteros" similar to [tou kuriou hemon kai soteros Iesou Christou] (of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ), it clearly implies ONE person not TWO.

"of our Lord and Savior not only implies but clearly refers to one person, the same person Peter and Paul call the Man, Jesus Christ. And yes you are pulling one or two verses out of the context of the whole word of God to teach a false doctrine.

The Greek in 2 Peter 1:1 is "tou theou heemoon kai sooterios leesou christou". "of God our and Savior Jesus Christ". Now you can interpret this to imply one person who is both God and Savior or two persons God and our Savior Jesus Christ since how the words are arranged in English changes the meaning. Did Peter mean "of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" or "of God and our Savior Jesus Christ". Find me a verse that plainly states Jesus is God, a verse that does not have to be interpreted to mean Jesus is God.

Paul wrote in 1 Timothy:

1 Timothy 1:1-2
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope; 2 to Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. NAS

1 Timothy 1:1-2
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. KJV

Here Paul makes a distinction between God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude tells us:
Jude 24-25

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
NAS

Jude 24-25

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
NAS

The KJ has it this way:

Jude 24-25

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. KJV

Now if you have an interlinear of the TR you will find that the KJ translators did not translate every word in the Greek:


Jude 25

To the only 3441
wise <4680 >
God 2316
Saviour, 4990
our 2257
1223
2424
5547
3588
2962
be 9999
2257
glory 1391
and <2532 >
majesty, 3172
dominion 2904
and 2532
power, 1849
4253
ever. 3956
3588
165
both 2532
now 3568
and 2532
1519  3956
3588
ever. 165
Amen. 281
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c) 1994 by Biblesoft)

The Greeks words left untranslated are "through Jesus Christ our Lord".

No, Reaper you can laugh all you want and until the Lord comes again but the Bible does not teach Jesus is part of a triune God, it tells us that Jesus Christ is a man who God highly exalted as both Prince and Savior.

[REAPER]

The Greek in 2 Peter 1:1 is "tou theou heemoon kai sooterios leesou christou". "of God our and Savior Jesus Christ". Now you can interpret this to imply one person who is both God and Savior or two persons God and our Savior Jesus Christ since how the words are arranged in English changes the meaning. Did Peter mean "of our God and Savior Jesus Christ" or "of God and our Savior Jesus Christ". Find me a verse that plainly states Jesus is God, a verse that does not have to be interpreted to mean Jesus is God.

Really? We can find out exactly what 2 Peter 1:1 really means.
Your comparing the Grammatical structure of 1 Timothy and Jude 24,25 to 2 Peter 1:1? They are not the same, however James 1:27 and 2 Peter 1:1 are.

Since you seem to have a problem with the KJV, lets take a look at the version you use, the NAS. Lets take a look at 2 Peter 1:1 according to the New American Standard Version of the bible.

Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: (2 Peter 1:1 NAS)

Now take a look at the New American Standard Version of James 1:27

Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. (James 1:27 NAS)

Is "God and Father" the same person in James 1:27? Without taking it out of "context", they sure are!

Now in all honesty, is "God and Savior" the same person in 2 Peter 1:1? If you have the audacity to say that Jesus is not "God and Savior" in 2 Peter 1:1 and yet state that James 1:27 implies that God and Father are the same person, then I pity you. So whose guilty of taking verses out of context? Now let me ask you, is Jesus "God and Savior" according to 2 Peter 1:1? As for the reason for me laughing, you accuse others of taking verses out of context while you are the one who is doing such.

[Aineo]

What is interesting about your attempt to defeat what I have posted is the fact John10:10 and you have avoided addressing what I have posted that shows your interpretation of 2 Peter 1:1 contradicts what Peter said in Acts as well as what Paul wrote in Romans and 1 Corinthians. Now either Peter and Paul are confused or you are.

Tell Reaper how do you rationalize Jesus' words that tell us there is only one true God and Paul's words that there is but on God, the Father with your interpretation of 2 Peter 1:1?

John10:10 had totally avoided my questions on this and now you seem to want to avoid my questions also, which only shows me that either you can't or you refuse to acknowledge that neither Jesus nor Peter nor Paul taught a triune God.

[John 10:10]

Since I satrted this post by declaring that Aineo believes and teaches "another gospel of Christ," I will end it for me by saying the same thing. The teaching that Jesus Christ is a created being is another gospel of Christ.

Sufficient Bible Scriptures have been given to show that Jesus Christ is the eternal Word of God who became flesh, salvation is found in Him, and He honors those who find His salvation by giving to us the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If Aineo and others choose to believe in this "other gospel of Christ," that is their choice, but they have left the faith of the Apostles and the revelation of New Covenant Scriptures.

It's as simple and as difficult as that.

[Aineo]

The gospel of Jesus Christ is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by faith in a manmade doctrine so if any one is following a different gospel it is you.

All you have demonstrated on this thread and the other one you started is you cannot answer some straight questions based on what was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

[webmaster]

Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: (2 Peter 1:1 NAS)

2 Peter 1

1.
|4826| Simeon
|4074| Peter,
|1401| a slave
|2532| and
|0652| an apostle
|2424| of Jesus
|5547| Christ,
|3588| to those
|2472| equally precious
|2254| with us
|2975| having obtained
|4102| faith
|1722| in
|1343| {the} righteousness
|3588| of the
|2316| God
|2257| of us
|2532| and
|4990| Savior
|2257| of us,
|2424| Jesus
|5547| Christ.

[webmaster]

Now take a look at the New American Standard Version of James 1:27

Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. (James 1:27 NAS)

Is "God and Father" the same person in James 1:27? Without taking it out of "context", they sure are!

James 1:27
27.
|2356| religion
|2513| Clean
|2532| and
|0283| undefiled
|3844| in the presence of
|3588| the
|2316| God
|2532| and
|3962| Father
|3778| this
|2076| is,
|1980| to visit
|3737| orphans
|1722| in
|3588| the
|2347| affliction
|0848| of them,
|0784| unspotted
|1438| himself
|5083| to keep
|0575| from
|3588| the
|2889| world.

[webmaster]

Now in all honesty, is "God and Savior" the same person in 2 Peter 1:1?

Not taking sides here but the answer is no!

[REAPER]

Greetings Webmaster!

Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: (2 Peter 1:1 NAS)

2 Peter 1

1.
|4826| Simeon
|4074| Peter,
|1401| a slave
|2532| and
|0652| an apostle
|2424| of Jesus
|5547| Christ,
|3588| to those
|2472| equally precious
|2254| with us
|2975| having obtained
|4102| faith
|1722| in
|1343| {the} righteousness
|3588| of the
|2316| God
|2257| of us
|2532| and
|4990| Savior
|2257| of us,
|2424| Jesus
|5547| Christ.

What version of the bible are you using? My strongs lexicon shows differently regarding the KJV version of the bible.

Simon [4826]
Peter [4074]
a servant [1401]
and [2532]
an apostle [652]
of Jesus [2424]
Christ [5547]
to them that have obtained [2975]
like precious [2472]
faith [4102]
with us [2254]
through [1722]
the righteousness [1343]
of God [2316]
and [2532]
our [2257]
Savior [4990]
Jesus [2424]
Christ [5547]

Of "God and our Savior" [tou theou hemon kai soteros Iesou Christou] which is gramatically parallel to [ho theos kai pater] "The God and Father" (1 Peter 1:3). In the KJV, God and Father are the same person in 1 Peter 1:3, and in 2 Peter 1:1 the context is the same. In 1 Peter 1:3, God and Father are the same person. Do a strongs number listing for 1 Peter 1:3 as you did with 2 Peter 1:1 and put them side by side and tell me that they are not gramatically the same. On another note, where do you stand in regards to the Trinity, do you believe it to be a true or false doctrine?

[webmaster]

In the KJV, God and Father are the same person

Using the KJV in any serious theological debate is an oxymoron to say the least. LOL Considering how the KJV blasphemed the word Pharmakeia aka Witch. When was the last time you saw a witch fly on a broom stick but thru hollywood?

http://www.ghost-stop.com/Pharmakeia_aka_Witches.html

[webmaster]

Do a strongs number listing for 1 Peter 1:3 as you did with 2 Peter 1:1 and put them side by side and tell me that they are not gramatically the same.

Peter 1:3
3.
|2128| Blessed {be}
|3588| the
|2316| God
|2532| and
|3962| Father
|3588| of the
|2962| Lord
|2257| of us,
|2424| Jesus
|5547| Christ,
|3588| the {One}
|2596| according to
|4183| much
|0846| of Him
|1656| mercy
|0313| having regenerated
|2248| us
|1519| to
|1680| a hope
|2198| living
|1223| through
|0386| {the} resurrection
|2424| of Jesus
|5547| Christ
|1537| from
|3498| {the} dead

[REAPER]

Hello again Marty!

In the KJV, God and Father are the same person

Using the KJV in any serious theological debate is an oxymoron to say the least. LOL Considering how the KJV blasphemed the word Pharmakeia aka Witch. When was the last time you saw a witch fly on a broom stick but thru hollywood?

http://www.ghost-stop.com/Pharmakeia_aka_Witches.html

You have a point. Also 1 Peter 1:3 and 2 Peter 1:1 is probably not the best example, but can you do me a favor, using the strongs number listing you used for 2 Peter 1:1 which reads:

2 Peter 1

1.
|4826| Simeon
|4074| Peter,
|1401| a slave
|2532| and
|0652| an apostle
|2424| of Jesus
|5547| Christ,
|3588| to those
|2472| equally precious
|2254| with us
|2975| having obtained
|4102| faith
|1722| in
|1343| {the} righteousness
|3588| of the
|2316| God
|2257| of us
|2532| and
|4990| Savior
|2257| of us,
|2424| Jesus
|5547| [b]Christ[/b].

Can you please do one for 2 Peter 3:18 where it reads "the Lord of us and Savior" and put 2 Peter 3:18 and 2 Peter 1:1 side by side and tell me if the Lord of us and Savior is one person or two.

What you quoted reads "the God of us and Savior of us, Jesus Christ" Now if I were to say "the webmaster of this website and the owner of this website, Marty Lineberry, would the webmaster and the owner be separate persons?

Furthermore, what do you think of Granville Sharp rule #1

Rule I.
When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connection, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill,] if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e. it denotes farther description of the first-named person, as -

[webmaster]

Can you please do one for 2 Peter 3:18

2 Peter 3:18
18.
|0837| grow
|1161| But
|1722| in
|5485| grace
|2532| and
|1108| knowledge
|3588| of the
|2962| Lord
|2257| of us
|2532| and
|4990| Savior,
|2424| Jesus
|5547| Christ.
|0846| To Him
|9999| {be}
|3588| the
|1391| glory
|2532| both
|3568| now
|2532| and
|1519| to
|2250| {the} day
|0165| of {the} age.
|0281| Amen.

[webmaster]

Strong's Ref. # 2962

Romanized kurios
Pronounced koo'-ree-os

from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Mr. (as a respectful title):

oxymoron KJV-- God, Lord, master, Sir.

BTW either the present or past Presidents could also be called Lord 2000 thousand years ago?

[REAPER]

So would you agree that "the Lord of us and Savior" in 2 Peter 3:18 is one person, and that one person is Christ? and then believe that "the God of us and Savior" in 2 Peter 1:1 are two?

[webmaster]

Furthermore, what do you think of Granville Sharp rule #1

Rule I.
When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connection, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill,] if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e. it denotes farther description of the first-named person, as -

Hopefully the greek writers of the NT didn't have to get out a College Book on aka correct English to write a simple letter. All the letters written in the NT was written in POOR people's gramma or in the USA basically it was southern red neck slang. I am sure the people reading it or other people listening to the letters understood exactly what the meaning was!

God forbid if Paul or Peter would have used the word Doughnut?

[webmaster]

So would you agree that "the Lord of us and Savior" in 2 Peter 3:18 is one person, and that one person is Christ? and then believe that "the God of us and Savior" in 2 Peter 1:1 are two?

Strong's Ref. # 4990

Romanized soter
Pronounced so-tare'

from GSN4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ:

KJV--saviour.

[REAPER]

So would you agree that "the Lord of us and Savior" in 2 Peter 3:18 is one person, and that one person is Christ? and then believe that "the God of us and Savior" in 2 Peter 1:1 are two?

Strong's Ref. # 4990

Romanized soter
Pronounced so-tare'

from GSN4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ:

KJV--saviour.

Right! In 2 Peter 1:1 you believe that "the God (theos) of us and Savior (soter)" are two separate persons, correct? One is God and the other is the Savior, correct? Now 2 Peter 3:18 uses "the Lord (kurios) of us and Savior (soter)", would you agree that this is also referring to two separate persons? One being Lord and the other is the Savior? or that the Lord and Savior is one person? If in 2 Peter 3:18, Christ is both Lord and Savior, wouldn't 2 Peter 1:1 then imply that Christ is both God and Savior?

[Aineo]

You know Reaper you are spending a lot of time avoiding those Scriptures I posted and by doing so you are telling not only me but others who read this thread you cannot answer my questions. And truthfully I am not suprised since no person on two other Christian message boards would address those questions and one of them has over 15000 members.

1 Corinthians 8:6

But 235
to us 2254
there is but 9999
one 1520
God, 2316
the 3588
Father, 3962
of 1537
whom 3739
are 9999
3588
all things, 3956
and 2532
we 2249
in 1519
him; 846
and 2532
one 1520
Lord 2962
Jesus 2424
Christ, 5547
by 1223
whom 3739
are 9999
3588
all things, 3956
and 2532
we 2249
by 1223
him. 846
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c) 1994 by Biblesoft)

Here is another one you can try to avoid:

Ephesians 4:4-7
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. NAS

[REAPER]

If I answer you, you will only deny or won't admit to being incorrect. Would you say that this is true according to its context?

Isaiah 43:11 - I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Using the same logical fallacy you use, I can honestly say that only the Father is the Savior and not the Son, since there is only the Father is the Savior according to that verse. Now you can argue that there are no verses that state Jesus is God, however 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 clearly states it.

[REAPER]

BTW, as for avoiding refutations. I recall another member "beads" refuting your Jewish law of agency regarding John 8:58. Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus for being Gods agent? Are you telling me that they were not aware of their own law of agency? I wouldn't be surprised if you switch arguments and say that in John 8:58, Jesus meant that He existed in the pre-determined mind of God, which is also preposterous because it is implying that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for saying that He existed in the mind of God before Abraham was BORN. And you can't argue that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus was saying, Jesus corrected their misunderstandings (John 10:30-36), the Jews CLEARLY understood that Jesus claimed to be God.

[webmaster]

Right! In 2 Peter 1:1 you believe that "the God (theos) of us and Savior (soter)" are two separate persons, correct? One is God and the other is the Savior, correct?

Correct gramma wise 2 Peter 1:1 "One is God and the other is the Savior"!

Now 2 Peter 3:18 uses "the Lord (kurios) of us and Savior (soter)", would you agree that this is also referring to two separate persons? One being Lord and the other is the Savior? or that the Lord and Savior is one person?

Correct gramma wise 2 Peter 3:18 The Lord and Savior is one person.


God = A
Lord = B
Savior = C
Jesus = D

The 2 words you are using here Savior or Lord to promote your view.

C(Savior) = A(God) or D(Jesus)
B(Lord) = D(Jesus) or A(God)


Verse wise you haven't proved A = D

Sorry.

[REAPER]

I don't see how you have concluded that the God (theos) of us and Savior (soter) is two persons and then concluded that the Lord (kurios) of us and Savior (soter) is one, the grammar structure is exactly the same. Are you denying that Jesus is God, how do you interpret John 8:58? a verse Aineo has taken out of context and avoided.

[webmaster]

I don't see how you have concluded that the God (theos) of us and Savior (soter) is two persons and then concluded that the Lord (kurios) of us and Savior (soter) is one, the grammar structure is exactly the same. Are you denying that Jesus is God, how do you interpret John 8:58? a verse Aineo has taken out of context and avoided.

Maybe Applying John 8:58 to what James or Peter was saying is like comparing apples to oranges? Let me guess you are a Pre-Trib and OSAS?

[Aineo]

You need to study Romans.

Romans 11:6-10
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? That which Israel is seeking for, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,

"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day."

9 And David says,

"Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 "Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever."
NAS

Romans 11:25-27

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."
27 "And this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."
NAS

And beads did not refute the Law of Agency he sidestepped the Law of Agency just as he has tried to sidestep what "cut off" means.

Of course the Jews understood the Law of Agency

John 10:32-39
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world,' You are blaspheming,' because I said,' I am the Son of God'? 37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father. " 39 Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.
NAS

However, Jesus never claimed to be God. And before you quote:

John 8:58
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." NAS

I have already explained this based on how Greeks understood "logos" and what Peter preached in Acts 2. and with the Lord's own words in John 17:3.

[REAPER]

I don't see how you have concluded that the God (theos) of us and Savior (soter) is two persons and then concluded that the Lord (kurios) of us and Savior (soter) is one, the grammar structure is exactly the same. Are you denying that Jesus is God, how do you interpret John 8:58? a verse Aineo has taken out of context and avoided.

Maybe Applying John 8:58 to what James or Peter was saying is like comparing apples to oranges? Let me guess you are a Pre-Trib and OSAS?

Pre-Trib? I'm not even going to go there, since I'm not sure if the Church will go through the Tribulation or not. As for OSAS, I don't used that title, I believe in unconditional eternal security. That is those whom God has predestined "the elect" are secured in their salvation and that they are continuous followers of Christ.

[REAPER]

You need to study Romans.

Romans 11:6-10
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? That which Israel is seeking for, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,

"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day."

9 And David says,

"Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 "Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever."
NAS

Romans 11:25-27

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."
27 "And this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."
NAS

And beads did not refute the Law of Agency he sidestepped the Law of Agency just as he has tried to sidestep what "cut off" means.

Of course the Jews understood the Law of Agency

John 10:32-39
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world,' You are blaspheming,' because I said,' I am the Son of God'? 37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father. " 39 Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.
NAS

However, Jesus never claimed to be God. And before you quote:

John 8:58
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." NAS

I have already explained this based on how Greeks understood "logos" and what Peter preached in Acts 2. and with the Lord's own words in John 17:3.

Aineo and webmaster, I am in a hurry. But to Aineo, why did the Jews want to stone Jesus in John 8:58? John the Baptist according to the Jewish law of agency could claim to be God, the Jews had no problem with him or any of the previous prophets. Again, why did the Jews want to stone Jesus?

[Aineo]

Pre-Trib? I'm not even going to go there, since I'm not sure if the Church will go through the Tribulation or not. As for OSAS, I don't used that title, I believe in unconditional eternal security. That is those whom God has predestined "the elect" are secured in their salvation and that they are continuous followers of Christ.

So, although you do not like OSAS you still believe in OSAS under Calvin's usage of eternal security and his doctrine of election.

Jesus is our Savior because God highly exalted Him to be both Prince and Savior (Acts 5:31), which brings us back to the Law of Agency. The Lord is God's agent for our salvation, which is why we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

[webmaster]

Pre-Trib? I'm not even going to go there, since I'm not sure if the Church will go through the Tribulation or not.

A little open minded? Labeled a heretic my most Major Denominations

As for OSAS, I don't used that title, I believe in unconditional eternal security. That is those whom God has predestined "the elect" are secured in their salvation and that they are continuous followers of Christ.

Calvinist.

[REAPER]

To both webmaster and Aineo, it seems that my arguments aren't getting through and I'm being labeled a heretic. I can say the same for both of you guys but I won't. You see fellows, the religious leaders thought Jesus had a devil when in actuality He was sent by God. See, those who are deceived don't know they are and believe that their doctrine is the truth, sure you can say the same for me, I'm just a messenger.

Cheerio!

[webmaster]

:lol: To both webmaster and Aineo, it seems that my arguments aren't getting through and I'm being labeled a heretic. I can say the same for both of you guys but I won't.

Cheerio!

You should really lighten up some!

Being labeled a heretic by most Major Denominations is a honor nowdays!!!!

[Aineo]

:lol: To both webmaster and Aineo, it seems that my arguments aren't getting through and I'm being labeled a heretic. I can say the same for both of you guys but I won't. You see fellows, the religious leaders thought Jesus had a devil when in actuality He was sent by God. See, those who are deceived don't know they are and believe that their doctrine is the truth, sure you can say the same for me, I'm just a messenger.

Cheerio!

No one is calling you a heretic, we are discussing a doctrine that can be defeated by Scriptures, which you have refused to respond to. If you could refute what I posted you would answer my questions not avoid my questions, so all you have conceded is doctrine is more important to you than God's word.

Yes, the religious leaders thought Jesus had a devil. God hardened their hearts so they would reject their own Messiah, which benefited us as per God's prophetic words.

[Aineo]

John10:10, your last post was deleted for violating Forum Rules. You have been warned before about this. If you cannot post without resorting to name-calling then refrain from posting until you calm down.

[John 10:10]

Post edited out for violation of Forum Rules.

[Alpha]

Guys, let us calm down please.

But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity {of devotion} to Christ (2 Corinthians 11:3).

If you are unsure of a doctrine because there are good arguments coming from the other side, then God knows you are finite. If the Holy Spirit can intercede for us concerning prayers that we cannot utter, how much more will it intercede for us concerning the knowledge of God?

Now, back to discussion:

However, Jesus never claimed to be God.

Do you know why Jesus never claimed to be God?

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. [Philippians 2:5-8].

Therefore, to imply that since Christ never claimed to be God, then He is not God, is a poor argument in itself through the context of scripture. If Christ was fully God and fully man, then in order for Him to be sinless as a man, He could not boast about Himself and His authority.

Also, was John 1 mentioned which says the word was with God and the word was God, and the word became flesh? Now, how can you be with someone and be that person at the sametime? You are only making the argument of being with, but you are excluding the argument of being. May God be glorified whatever the truth is, for His ways and thoughts are higher than ours.

[Aineo]

Okay, lets let Scripture explain Scripture.

First, God made Adam in the image (form) of God, so all human beings exist in the form of God. Second, Jesus was not anyone human beings servant. So when He emptied Himself and took on the form of a servant He fulfilled these prophecies:

Isaiah 42:1-3
1
"Behold, My servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.
2 "He will not cry out or raise His voice,
Nor make His voice heard in the street.
3 "A bruised reed He will not break,
And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish;
He will faithfully bring forth justice. NAS

Isaiah 49:1-6
1
Listen to Me, O islands,
And pay attention, you peoples from afar.
The LORD called Me from the womb;
From the body of My mother He named Me.
2 And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword;
In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me,
And He has also made Me a select arrow;
He has hidden Me in His quiver.
3 And He said to Me, "You are My servant, Israel,
In Whom I will show My glory."
4 But I said, "I have toiled in vain,
I have spent My strength for nothing and vanity;
Yet surely the justice due to Me is with the LORD,
And My reward with My God."
5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him
(For I am honored in the sight of the LORD,
And My God is My strength),
6 He says, "It is too small a thing that
You should be My servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations
So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth." NAS

Isaiah 52:13-15
13 Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up, and greatly exalted.
14 Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man,
And His form more than the sons of men.
15 Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand. NAS

Isaiah 53
1
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors. NAS

Read Isaiah 49 with care and an open mind. God formed the Messiah in His mother’s womb to be His servant, not part of the Godhead. So what did Jesus empty Himself of, His human self-determination and ego by totally submitting to the will of His Father.

If you have read all my posts I have addressed the Word being God. Just as your words are with you they are you in that your words define who you are. Now, I have asked several questions on this thread that no person has even attempted to answer. One of those questions deals with what John wrote in John 17:3:

John 17:1-3
17:1 These things Jesus spoke; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Thy Son, that the Son may glorify Thee, 2 even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

The reason Jesus never claimed to be God is because Jesus is not God or part of a triune Godhead.

Now the question, what does "the only true God" mean to you?

[Alpha]

It's been a while since you and I debated Aineo. We actually debated once when I was a new member years ago. I would have never thought I would see this day again. Let's go pilgrim:

Now the question, what does "the only true God" mean to you?

To some it can mean that Christ was only humbling Himself. Trinitarians believe that though Christ was God, He emptied Himself of certain divine attributes. You might say this is speculation from the text, but I'm sure the same can be said for some of your doctrinal holdings.

If your interpretation of the the Word being God holds true, then how do you define the "Word became flesh" ? In other words, you are saying that God's word defines who He is. So, if His word became flesh, that also defines who He is right? Jesus Christ.