Messianic Prophecies vs. the Trinity

[Aineo]

Now maybe we can discuss God's word from Genesis through Revelation. First the rules for posting to this thread.

1. Stick to the thread topic. Any post that tries to take this thread off topic will be deleted.
2. No private interpretations will be allowed. Read what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 1:20-21.
3. If your only response to what is posted is to ridicule the poster then write it on a piece of paper and burn it since if you post it your post will be deleted. Forum Rule #4 will be enforced.
4. This thread is not to defend a doctrine, it is to discuss what the Bible (not men) teaches.
5. NT Scriptures can be posted to show how the Lord fulfilled the Messianic prophecies, however debating, striving over, or wrangling the meaning of words will not be tolerated.

Now, here is a short list of Messianic prophecies that the Lord fulfilled.

Genesis 3:15
5 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel. " NAS

Genesis 12:3
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed. " NAS

Genesis 28:14
14 Your descendants shall also be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. NAS

Genesis 49:10
10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes,
And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples. NAS

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 'And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. NAS

2 Samuel 7:16
16 And your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever."' " NAS

Psalms 2
1
Why are the nations in an uproar,
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand,
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His
Anointed:
3 "Let us tear their fetters apart,
And cast away their cords from us!"
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury:
6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee.
8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Thine inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Thy possession.
9 'Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron,
Thou shalt shatter them like earthenware.' "
10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
Take warning, O judges of the earth.
11 Worship the LORD with reverence,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Do homage to the Son, lest He become angry, and you perish in the way,
For His wrath may soon be kindled.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! NAS

Psalms 16:10-11
10 For Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol;
Neither wilt Thou allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
11 Thou wilt make known to me the path of life;
In Thy presence is fulness of joy;
In Thy right hand there are pleasures forever. NAS

Psalms 22
1 For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar.
A Psalm of David.

My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but Thou dost not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet Thou art holy,
O Thou who art enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In Thee our fathers trusted;
They trusted, and Thou didst deliver them.
5 To Thee they cried out, and were delivered;
In Thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm, and not a man,
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 "Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."
9 Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb;
Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts.
10 Upon Thee I was cast from birth;
Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb.
11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But Thou, O LORD, be not far off;
O Thou my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth;
And from the horns of the wild oxen Thou dost answer me.
22 I will tell of Thy name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise Thee.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Neither has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From Thee comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD.
Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before Thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's,
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the LORD to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it. NAS

Isaiah 7:13-16
13 Then he said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well? 14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15 "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. 16 "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken. NAS

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. NAS

Isaiah 28:16-18
16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
17 "And I will make justice the measuring line,
And righteousness the level;
Then hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies,
And the waters shall overflow the secret place.
18 "And your covenant with death shall be canceled,
And your pact with Sheol shall not stand;
When the overwhelming scourge passes through,
Then you become its trampling place. NAS

Isaiah 42:1-3
1
"Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.
2 "He will not cry out or raise His voice,
Nor make His voice heard in the street.
3 "A bruised reed He will not break,
And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish;
He will faithfully bring forth justice. NAS

Isaiah 49:1-6
1
Listen to Me, O islands,
And pay attention, you peoples from afar.
The LORD called Me from the womb;
From the body of My mother He named Me.
2 And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword;
In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me,
And He has also made Me a select arrow;
He has hidden Me in His quiver.
3 And He said to Me, "You are My Servant, Israel,
In Whom I will show My glory."
4 But I said, "I have toiled in vain,
I have spent My strength for nothing and vanity;
Yet surely the justice due to Me is with the LORD,
And My reward with My God."
5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him
(For I am honored in the sight of the LORD,
And My God is My strength),
6 He says, "It is too small a thing that
You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations
So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth." NAS

Isaiah 50:5-6
5 The Lord GOD has opened My ear;
And I was not disobedient,
Nor did I turn back.
6 I gave My back to those who strike Me,
And My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard;
I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting. NAS

Isaiah 52:13-15
13 Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up, and greatly exalted.
14 Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man,
And His form more than the sons of men.
15 Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand. NAS

Isaiah 53
1
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors. NAS

Isaiah 61:1-3
1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives,
And freedom to prisoners;
2 To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. NAS

Daniel 9:25-26
25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. NAS

Hosea 2:23
23 "And I will sow her for Myself in the land.
I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion,
And I will say to those who were not My people,
'You are My people!'
And they will say, 'Thou art my God!'" NAS

Micah 5:2
2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity." NAS

Zechariah 2:10-11
10 "Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," declares the LORD. 11 "And many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. NAS

Zechariah 6:12-13
12 "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts," Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. 13 "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."' NAS

Zechariah 12:10
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born. NAS

Zechariah 13:6-9
6 "And one will say to him, 'What are these wounds between your arms?' Then he will say, 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'
7 "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
And against the man, My Associate,"
Declares the LORD of hosts.
"Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered;
And I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 "And it will come about in all the land,"
Declares the LORD,
"That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.
9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are My people,'
And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'" NAS

Malachi 3:1-2
1 "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. NAS

First I need to share a translation note that is found in most Bibles and very few Christians take the time to read. In the OT when we read LORD (in all caps) the Hebrew word is YHWH and would be better translated Yehovah, the Hebrews covenant name for God. Therefore to assume that LORD equals Lord in the NT is an assumption that will get us all into trouble.

Now, according to the OT prophecies who is the Messiah?

[REAPER]

Aineo, I would like to apologize for ridiculing your posts. But now on to one of your Messianic Prophecies.

Micah 5:2
2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity." NAS

from everlasting [03117] yowm
(with Strongs #) [05769] `owlam

Psalm 41:13 uses the Hebrew word (owlam) and it translated as "everlasting" which is applied to God Almighty.

[Aineo]

John 10:10, read the OP for the rules for posting to this thread. Your post was deleted.

Reaper, you apology is accepted.

Since God's thoughts (foreknowledge) are from the "days of eternity" this one word does not indicate the Messiah is from eternity. Look at the Hebrew for "go forth":

OT:4163
mowtsa'ah --

the origin, the place of going out from

a) origin
b) (euphemistic) a place of going out to or from (that is, a privy, a latrine)
(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

The Messiah will originate (go forth) in Bethlehem Ephrathah.

[REAPER]

John 10:10, read the OP for the rules for posting to this thread. Your post was deleted.

Reaper, you apology is accepted.

Since God's thoughts (foreknowledge) are from the "days of eternity" this one word does not indicate the Messiah is from eternity. Look at the Hebrew for "go forth":

OT:4163
mowtsa'ah --

the origin, the place of going out from

a) origin
b) (euphemistic) a place of going out to or from (that is, a privy, a latrine)
(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

The Messiah will originate (go forth) in Bethlehem Ephrathah.

The phrase "goings forth" [mowtsa'ah] can mean "origin" (going out to or from), i.e., "a family descent." There are however those who argue that Jesus' lineage can be traced back to Adam and thus is "of old", however we read in the context of Micah 5:2 that his "family descent" [mowtsa'ah] is "from of old, from everlasting (ETERNITY)", not from Bethlehem, so for Jesus to exist as a concept or idea in the Mind of God would be contextually incorrect. Furthermore, If we are to propose that Jesus existed in the mind of God before creation as an idea, it would be refuted when we take into consideration the rest of the scriptures regarding the pre-existence of Christ and His incarnation. John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus, yet he had said "he (Christ) existed before me". Micah 5:2 clearly teaches the Eternal pre-existence of Jesus not in a concept or in the mind of God, but as a member of the Godhead.

[Aineo]

However, in God's foreknowledge the Messiah existed before John. So the question we have to answer is how do we reconcile all of the Messianic prophecies, not just one with the reality of the NT, where we read in Colossians that the Son is the "first-born" of all creation.

Psalm 2:7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee.

When did Yehova beget His Son?

[absolutetruth]

However, in God's foreknowledge the Messiah existed before John. So the question we have to answer is how do we reconcile all of the Messianic prophecies, not just one with the reality of the NT, where we read in Colossians that the Son is the "first-born" of all creation.

Psalm 2:7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee.

When did Yehova beget His Son?

this is understood by many to be the day when Jesus was Baptized and the voice came from Heaven and said "This is my Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17).

[Aineo]

this is understood by many to be the day when Jesus was Baptized and the voice came from Heaven and said "This is my Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17).

And some believe that the day God begot His Son was the day the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary (Luke 1:35).

[absolutetruth]

just to clarify the rules:

No private interpretations will be allowed. Read what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 1:20-21.

how do we know what a "private interpretation" is without being omniscient?

This thread is not to defend a doctrine, it is to discuss what the Bible (not men) teaches.

this is a misnomer as well. we all start with axioms, whether everyone agrees or not. but it's true that what we believe must be supported by the WHOLE Bible.

NT Scriptures can be posted to show how the Lord fulfilled the Messianic prophecies, however debating, striving over, or wrangling the meaning of words will not be tolerated.

good. but does that mean that you're not allowed to simply and quickly tell us that we're wrong?

if we give an answer as to how the prophecies are explained under what we believe the Bible teaches, are you gonna quickly dismiss what we say as wrong like you were doing in the last topic? if we give you an answer that makes sense, even though you may not agree with it, are you gonna keep attacking it or ignoring it like you were doing before?

[absolutetruth]

this is understood by many to be the day when Jesus was Baptized and the voice came from Heaven and said "This is my Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17).

And some believe that the day God begot His Son was the day the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary (Luke 1:35).

right. so that answers that prophecy (under what Trinitarians believe the Bible to be saying).

[Aineo]

this is understood by many to be the day when Jesus was Baptized and the voice came from Heaven and said "This is my Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17).

And some believe that the day God begot His Son was the day the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary (Luke 1:35).

right. so that answers that prophecy (under what Trinitarians believe the Bible to be saying).

This can also show the Messiah had a beginning in time and space or is a created being since Luke 1:35 fulfills the prophecy of Genesis 3:15.

Genesis 3:15
5 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel. " NAS

[absolutetruth]

this is understood by many to be the day when Jesus was Baptized and the voice came from Heaven and said "This is my Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17).

And some believe that the day God begot His Son was the day the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary (Luke 1:35).

right. so that answers that prophecy (under what Trinitarians believe the Bible to be saying).

This can also show the Messiah had a beginning in time and space or is a created being since Luke 1:35 fulfills the prophecy of Genesis 3:15.

Genesis 3:15
5 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel. " NAS

yeah. we believe that Jesus was FULLY human. so He did come from the woman's seed. and His earthly manifestation was begotten that day.

[Aineo]

yeah. we believe that Jesus was FULLY human. so He did come from the woman's seed. and His earthly manifestation was begotten that day.

Since I defended the Trinity for decades I understand how Trinitarians apply both these Scriptures. The question being addressed on this thread is does the Trinity line up with the Messianic prophecies. You have posted an interpretation based on a select few OT and NT Scriptures.

Here is another Messianic prophecy:

Proverbs 8:22-36
22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 "From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 "When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 "Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.
27 "When He established the heavens, I was there,
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary,
So that the water should not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of men. 32 "Now therefore, O sons, listen to me,
For blessed are they who keep my ways.
33 "Heed instruction and be wise,
And do not neglect it.
34 "Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at my doorposts.
35 "For he who finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD.
36 "But he who sins against me injures himself;
All those who hate me love death."
NAS

"I was brought forth" is this Hebrew word:

OT:2342

chuwl or chiyl --

to twist, to whirl, to dance, to writhe, to fear, to tremble, to travail, to be in anguish, to be pained
a) (Qal)
1) to dance
2) to twist, to writhe
3) to whirl, to whirl about
b) (Polel)
1) to dance
2) to writhe (in travail with), to bear, to bring forth
3) to wait anxiously
c) (Pulal)
1) to be made to writhe, to be made to bear
2) to be brought forth
d) (Hophal) to be born
e) (Hithpolel)
1) whirling (participle)
2) writhing, suffering torture (participle)
3) to wait longingly
f) (Hithpalpel) to be distressed
(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)


OT:2342
chuwl (khool); or chiyl (kheel); a primitive root; properly, to twist or whirl (in a circular or spiral manner), i.e. (specifically) to dance, to writhe in pain (especially of parturition) or fear; figuratively, to wait, to pervert:

KJV - bear, (make to) bring forth, (make to) calve, dance, drive away, fall grievously (with pain), fear, form, great, grieve, (be) grievous, hope, look, make, be in pain, be much (sore) pained, rest, shake, shapen, (be) sorrow (-ful), stay, tarry, travail (with pain), tremble, trust, wait carefully (patiently), be wounded.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, once again we see an OT prophecy that shows the Son is a created being who existed at least in thought if not spirit when God created. Psalm 8 deals with the personification of wisdom in the Son.

[REAPER]

So, once again we see an OT prophecy that shows the Son is a created being who existed at least in thought if not spirit when God created. Psalm 8 deals with the personification of wisdom in the Son.

If the Son is the personification of Wisdom and if the Son is a created spirit or thought, are we to assume that Wisdom did not exist within the Eternal God before the creation of the Son? In other words, if the Son represents the Wisdom of God, then the Son cannot be a creation since Gods wisdom is not a creation nor is it created. Gods Wisdom is manifested in His Word and His Word was manifested in Christ when the Word became Flesh. The Divine Word cannot be a creation since God Wisdom is manifested in His Word. Christ's "humanity" is a creation.

[Aineo]

Wisdom is knowledge that is applied wisely, which is also thoughts that are expressed that existed within or with the eternal Father. absolutetruth used the word "manifested", which is a good way to express the Son as the physical manifestation of God's wisdom. This is how John used "logos" in the prologue to his gospel.

WISDOM
Dominant Uses. An attribute of God, wisdom is intimately related to the divine knowledge, manifesting itself in the selection of proper ends with the proper means for their accomplishment. Thus not only the world of nature but especially the economy of redemption is a manifestation of divine wisdom (see Psalms 104:24; Romans 11:33; 1 Corinthians 1:24; Revelation 7:12). Thus the OT appeal of wisdom to men is the appeal of the only wise God (see Proverbs and Psalms).

In men wisdom is not only practical understanding of matters relating to this life (1 Kings 3:12), but in the highest sense it is the theoretical and practical acceptance of divine revelation. Wisdom is in the deepest sense a divine gift (see Acts 6:10; 1 Corinthians 2:6; 12:8; Ephesians 1:17; Colossians 1:9; 3:16; James 1:5; 3:15-17).
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

[absolutetruth]

Wisdom is knowledge that is applied wisely, which is also thoughts that are expressed that existed within or with the eternal Father. absolutetruth used the word "manifested", which is a good way to express the Son as the physical manifestation of God's wisdom. This is how John used "logos" in the prologue to his gospel.

WISDOM
Dominant Uses. An attribute of God, wisdom is intimately related to the divine knowledge, manifesting itself in the selection of proper ends with the proper means for their accomplishment. Thus not only the world of nature but especially the economy of redemption is a manifestation of divine wisdom (see Psalms 104:24; Romans 11:33; 1 Corinthians 1:24; Revelation 7:12). Thus the OT appeal of wisdom to men is the appeal of the only wise God (see Proverbs and Psalms).

In men wisdom is not only practical understanding of matters relating to this life (1 Kings 3:12), but in the highest sense it is the theoretical and practical acceptance of divine revelation. Wisdom is in the deepest sense a divine gift (see Acts 6:10; 1 Corinthians 2:6; 12:8; Ephesians 1:17; Colossians 1:9; 3:16; James 1:5; 3:15-17).
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

this is easy. these aren't prophecies of Christ. this is a personification of "Wisdom". just like personifications of other abstractions: (Genesis 4:7):

And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door;

(Ps. 85:10):

Lovingkindness and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

(James 1:15):

Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

look at Proverbs 1-9. unless Christ is a woman, or has a female counterpart in the spiritual realm, this isn't Christ being talked about. too many people have mistaken these verses to be prophecies of Christ.

if you're gonna bring up prophecies, bring up ACTUAL ones, not red herrings.

[Aineo]

Wisdom in Hebrew is a feminine noun, therefore the pronouns should be feminine. Are thoughts gender biased? In Hebrews we read that the Son is the exact representation of God's nature and since wisdom is part of God's nature your quick comeback is off base.

Now, I will let your sarcasm slid this time, but watch it. Have you checked how commentaries view Proverbs 8?

Proverbs 8:22

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

A verse which has played an important part in the history of Christian dogma. Wisdom reveals herself as preceding all creation, stamped upon it all, one with God, yet in some way distinguishable from Him as the object of His love (Proverbs 8:30). John declares that all which Wisdom here speaks of herself was true in its highest sense of the Word that became flesh (John 1:1-14): just as Apostles afterward applied Wisd. 7:22-30 to Christ (compare Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3).
(from Barnes' Notes, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

Proverbs 8:22

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

[The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way] Wisdom is not acquired by the Divine Being; man, and even angels, learn it by slow and progressive degrees; but in God it is as eternally inherent as any other essential attribute of his nature. The Targum makes this wisdom a creature, by thus translating the passage: Elaha barani bereish biriteiah, "God created me in the beginning of his creatures." The Syriac is the same. This is as absurd and heretical as some modern glosses on the same passage.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)

[absolutetruth]

Post deleted for being off topic. Please observe the rules in the OP.

[absolutetruth]

In Hebrews we read that the Son is the exact representation of God's nature and since wisdom is part of God's nature your quick comeback is off base.

however, this doesn't mean that EVERY reference to wisdom is speaking directly of Christ. you make a fallacy in logic to come to that conclusion.

and what sarcasm?

[absolutetruth]

Genesis 3:15
5 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel. " NAS

Genesis 12:3
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed. " NAS

Genesis 28:14
14 Your descendants shall also be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. NAS

Genesis 49:10
10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes,
And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples. NAS

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 'And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. NAS

2 Samuel 7:16
16 And your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever."' " NAS

Psalms 16:10-11
10 For Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol;
Neither wilt Thou allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
11 Thou wilt make known to me the path of life;
In Thy presence is fulness of joy;
In Thy right hand there are pleasures forever. NAS

Psalms 22
1 For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar.
A Psalm of David.

My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but Thou dost not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet Thou art holy,
O Thou who art enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In Thee our fathers trusted;
They trusted, and Thou didst deliver them.
5 To Thee they cried out, and were delivered;
In Thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm, and not a man,
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 "Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."
9 Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb;
Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts.
10 Upon Thee I was cast from birth;
Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb.
11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But Thou, O LORD, be not far off;
O Thou my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth;
And from the horns of the wild oxen Thou dost answer me.
22 I will tell of Thy name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise Thee.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Neither has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From Thee comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD.
Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before Thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's,
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the LORD to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it. NAS

Isaiah 7:13-16
13 Then he said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well? 14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15 "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. 16 "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken. NAS

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. NAS

Isaiah 28:16-18
16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
17 "And I will make justice the measuring line,
And righteousness the level;
Then hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies,
And the waters shall overflow the secret place.
18 "And your covenant with death shall be canceled,
And your pact with Sheol shall not stand;
When the overwhelming scourge passes through,
Then you become its trampling place. NAS

Isaiah 42:1-3
1
"Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.
2 "He will not cry out or raise His voice,
Nor make His voice heard in the street.
3 "A bruised reed He will not break,
And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish;
He will faithfully bring forth justice. NAS

Isaiah 49:1-6
1
Listen to Me, O islands,
And pay attention, you peoples from afar.
The LORD called Me from the womb;
From the body of My mother He named Me.
2 And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword;
In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me,
And He has also made Me a select arrow;
He has hidden Me in His quiver.
3 And He said to Me, "You are My Servant, Israel,
In Whom I will show My glory."
4 But I said, "I have toiled in vain,
I have spent My strength for nothing and vanity;
Yet surely the justice due to Me is with the LORD,
And My reward with My God."
5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him
(For I am honored in the sight of the LORD,
And My God is My strength),
6 He says, "It is too small a thing that
You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations
So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth." NAS

Isaiah 50:5-6
5 The Lord GOD has opened My ear;
And I was not disobedient,
Nor did I turn back.
6 I gave My back to those who strike Me,
And My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard;
I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting. NAS

Isaiah 52:13-15
13 Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up, and greatly exalted.
14 Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man,
And His form more than the sons of men.
15 Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand. NAS

Isaiah 53
1
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors. NAS

Isaiah 61:1-3
1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives,
And freedom to prisoners;
2 To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. NAS

Daniel 9:25-26
25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. NAS

Hosea 2:23
23 "And I will sow her for Myself in the land.
I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion,
And I will say to those who were not My people,
'You are My people!'
And they will say, 'Thou art my God!'" NAS

Micah 5:2
2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity." NAS

Zechariah 2:10-11
10 "Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," declares the LORD. 11 "And many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. NAS

Zechariah 6:12-13
12 "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts," Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. 13 "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."' NAS

Zechariah 12:10
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born. NAS

Zechariah 13:6-9
6 "And one will say to him, 'What are these wounds between your arms?' Then he will say, 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'
7 "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
And against the man, My Associate,"
Declares the LORD of hosts.
"Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered;
And I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 "And it will come about in all the land,"
Declares the LORD,
"That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.
9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are My people,'
And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'" NAS

Malachi 3:1-2
1 "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. NAS

i don't disagree with any of these. so what do we do now?

and to answer your question, Jesus is the Messiah.

[Aineo]

i don't disagree with any of these. so what do we do now?

and to answer your question, Jesus is the Messiah.

First, I have not posted or asserted that every time wisdom is used in the OT or the NT for that matter it refers to the Lord.

Second, I have never denied that Jesus is the Messiah.

And third, those Scriptures are from a Trinitarian source that has listed some of the OT prophecies fulfilled by Jesus the Messiah, so why do you disagree with Trinitarian scholars? In Matthew 27:46 Jesus cried out with a loud voice "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me", which is a direct quote from Psalm 22:1.

As to what you do now, that is up to you. But it seems you reject even those Scriptures used to support that Jesus is the Messiah of the OT by Trinitarians.

[bj bear]

Greetings,

I am new to this board so please bear with me as I try and figure out the point you are trying to make in this thread.

Is it your belief that the doctrine of the trinity, as a reflection of Scripture, is somehow incompatible with prophesies of the Messiah?

If it is, have you considered the rock of offense in Isaiah? What is your conclusion?

In His service,

BJ Bear

[Aineo]

bj bear, first welcome to JCF.

You are referring to Isaiah 28:16-18, which is one of the Messianic Scriptures I posted in the OP.

This thread is to show the doctrine of the Trinity is not supported by the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah and that this doctrine is based on tradition.

[REAPER]

Aineo, I would like to comment on how you interpret the "logos" to pre-exist in the mind of God only. I know that you are not a Modalist or Christadelphian and reject all cults, but this is a common doctrinal error found in both of those cults. I am 61 years old and like you Aineo have been studying the bible for the majority of my life and once believed that Jesus was not God until by praying daily and before and after studying the scriptures did I come to the realization of the absolute truth.

Wisdom is knowledge that is applied wisely, which is also thoughts that are expressed that existed within or with the eternal Father. absolutetruth used the word "manifested", which is a good way to express the Son as the physical manifestation of God's wisdom. This is how John used "logos" in the prologue to his gospel.

WISDOM
Dominant Uses. An attribute of God, wisdom is intimately related to the divine knowledge, manifesting itself in the selection of proper ends with the proper means for their accomplishment. Thus not only the world of nature but especially the economy of redemption is a manifestation of divine wisdom (see Psalms 104:24; Romans 11:33; 1 Corinthians 1:24; Revelation 7:12). Thus the OT appeal of wisdom to men is the appeal of the only wise God (see Proverbs and Psalms).

In men wisdom is not only practical understanding of matters relating to this life (1 Kings 3:12), but in the highest sense it is the theoretical and practical acceptance of divine revelation. Wisdom is in the deepest sense a divine gift (see Acts 6:10; 1 Corinthians 2:6; 12:8; Ephesians 1:17; Colossians 1:9; 3:16; James 1:5; 3:15-17).
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

The apostle John actually gives insight to the intimate loving fellowship that the Word [logos] shared with the Father, this is seen when he used the preposition [pros] in John 1:1: "and the Word was with [pros] God." The preposition [pros] "with" has a variety of meanings depending on the context it is used. When it is used in application to persons, the word [pros] is indicative of an intimate fellowship and always their distinction. Lets take a look at the examples found in John 1:1 and 2 Corinthians 5:8 [pros ton kurion] "with the Lord", Here Paul has in mind a face-to-face converse with the Lord. So we can see that [pros] is expressing the intimacy and special relationship that Children of God will experience in Heaven, with [pros] the Lord. John as with Paul conceives the fellowship between Christ the [Logos] and God the Father, not a mere thought or concept. The preposition [pros] when used with the accusative case is indicative of direction, a motion towards and is oftenly used in the New Testament to describe to be in communion and living union with, and not just being besides or near. In other words, John is telling us that the Word [logos] abode with the Father from all eternity, and was in a living communion and active relationship with Him, so contextually the Word cannot imply a concept or thought. Furthermore we find in Romans 5:1, it reads: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God [pros ton theon] through our Lord Jesus Christ". Your hermeneutics is flawed based on the assumption that the Word is merely a concept, thought or idea existing in the mind of God .

Now lets take a look at John 17:5:

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. [John 17:5]

Jesus tells us that He had shared the glory with [para] the Father before the world was. When the preposition [para] "with" is accompanied by the dative case, it is used in reference to "persons", it represents nearness in space, besides, near from which the relationship is viewed. When Jesus said "With thine own self" [para seautoi], i.e., by the side of His Father, Jesus is praying for the complete restoration to the pre-existing fellowship and glory He enjoyed before His Incarnation (John 1:14). So as you can see, this is not speaking of His (Christ's) pre-existence in the mind of God, but an actual conscious existing with the Father at His side "with thee" [para soi].

[John 10:10]

In Isaiah 48:12-16 God declares,

12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.
13 "Surely My hand founded the earth, and My right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand together.
14 "Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, and His arm will be against the Chaldeans.
15 "I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.
16 " Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, from the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord (Father) has sent Me (Son), and His Spirit (Holy Spirit)."

The ONE speaking here is the Word of God of John 1:1-2 who became (was not created) flesh in John 1:14.


This part of your post was deleted. Now stick to the rules or I will simply delete your posts that try to take this thread off topic. You started your own thread defend the Trinity there.

[REAPER]

The ONE speaking here is the Word of God of John 1:1-2 who became (was not created) flesh in John 1:14.

The ONE speaking here is the first and the last of Revelation 1:8,

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Great verse John 10:10!

[Aineo]

Reaper, I took the opposite path. I was taught the Trinity from day one and accepted what I was taught until I started debating Catholics. I don't know exactly why this lead me to pray for wisdom and understanding of God's word but the end result was I learned that the ECF's were heavily influenced by Plato, Aristotle, and other Greek philosophers. In my research to show Catholics why Mary is not the mother of God I studied how Greeks understood "logos". To my surprise I discovered how the OT views "wisdom" is almost an exact parallel to the Greek concept of "logos".

Have you read any of Philo of Alexandria's philosophy? He was a Hellenistic Jew who used Plato's "logos" to explain Judaism's monotheism.

I. Categorization of Philo's Logos

1) The Logos as Plato's or a Middle Platonic model: It is described as a 'divine model' (PARADEIGMA), 'divine plan,' or 'thought' which is placed in God's mind (YUXH (e.g. Op Mund 24, 25; Plant 18-19; Fug 94-102). The parallel correspondences between Timaeus and Philo are as follows: 'model or plan for God's creation' (NOHTOS ZWN) (Tim 30c-31a) // 'God's ideas or model' (KOSMOS NOHTOS) (e.g. Op Mund 24); 'cosmic soul' (YUXH) (Tim 36-37) // 'God's mind' (YUXH) (Op Mund 18, 20); 'the logos as God's thought' (LOGOS KAI DIANOIA) (Tim 38c) // 'the logos' (Leg All 1:24); and 'the reason as God's plan' (LOGISMOS QEOU) (Tim 34a) // 'the reason as the laws' (LOGISMOS) (Op Mund 24).

2) The Logos as the word of YHWH (and wisdom of God): In the context where Philo goes back to the Bible, it shows the figure of God's utterance in accordance with the Jewish creation account in Genesis (e.g. Sacr 8; Fug 95) and the figure of the word of YHWH (Leg All 3:204; Post 102). The wisdom motif as 'divine thought' may correspond to Philo's Logos as 'divine plan' (cf. Quis Rer 199; Leg All 1:43, 65; Leg All 2:86; Fug 97; Somn 2:241-242); and since Philo's theological model of the divine Logos can involve the notion of 'wisdom' (of the Second Temple Period), Philo does not need to employ the wisdom motif for his theological argument.

3) The Logos as the allegorical application to the mediatorial figures in the biblical context: Philo takes several appropriate texts in the books of Moses, and places the Logos in each context. He is interested in the angelic figure (Leg All 3:177-178; Fug 5-6; Quaest Exod 2:13) or other mediator figures, such as Aaron (Heres 205), 'manna' (Leg All 3:174-178; Det 118; Heres 79, 191), or 'water' (Post 127-129; Somn 2:241-242, 246]). Philo also takes up other texts which sound polytheistic (e.g. the LXX rendering of Gen 31:13 and 9:6) and contends that the divine Logos should be placed beside God instead of other autonomous substances, so that the monotheistic view is not reduced at all (Somn 1:227-230; Quaest Gen 2:62).
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/med_logos.html

Now since Philo died about 50 A.D. and John was writing to Greeks and combating Gnosticism, his use of "logos" would have been perfectly clear to the Greeks as God's wisdom becoming flesh in the man Jesus Christ. Gnostics refused to see this and to them "logos" is Sophia (Greek for wisdom is sofia). The ECF's solution to combating Gnosticism was to develop the doctrine of the Trinity.

The next problem I saw with the Trinity is the number of times the NT refers to the Lord as a "man", not as God as well as the number of times the apostles refer to the "God and Father" of the Lord So I embarked on a study of the OT prophecies concering the Messiah (a study, which is not finished).

Genesis 1:26 is used as an OT proof text for God being a compound unity of 3. So I decided to research how an Orthodox Jew understands this verse:

No area of Jewish literature could be more inhospitable to the Christian doctrine of the triune godhead than the Torah and the writings of its prophetic messengers. It is on the strength of these sacred texts that the Jew has preserved the concept of one, single, unique Creator God Who alone is worthy of worship. Understandably, missionaries undertake a formidable task when they seek to “prove” the doctrine of the Trinity from the Jewish scriptures. No prophet went silent on the uncompromising radical monotheism demanded by the God of Israel. The Jewish people, therefore, to whom these sublime declarations about the nature of the Almighty were given, knew nothing about a trinity of persons in the godhead.
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/genesis1-26.html

What suprises me is the anti-Jewish sentiment found among Christians who refuse to accept how Judiasm expalins this verse. The Jews rejected their own Messiah because God partially hardened their hearts (Romans 11:25-26, Hosea 1:10) and so that the OT prophecies could be fulfilled, prophecies that concern a man not a God/man.

John 10:10, my response to Reaper is my response to John 1:1-15.

[absolutetruth]

Reaper, I took the opposite path. I was taught the Trinity from day one and accepted what I was taught until I started debating Catholics. I don't know exactly why this lead me to pray for wisdom and understanding of God's word but the end result was I learned that the ECF's were heavily influenced by Plato, Aristotle, and other Greek philosophers. In my research to show Catholics why Mary is not the mother of God I studied how Greeks understood "logos". To my surprise I discovered how the OT views "wisdom" is almost an exact parallel to the Greek concept of "logos".

Have you read any of Philo of Alexandria's philosophy? He was a Hellenistic Jew who used Plato's "logos" to explain Judaism's monotheism.

I. Categorization of Philo's Logos

1) The Logos as Plato's or a Middle Platonic model: It is described as a 'divine model' (PARADEIGMA), 'divine plan,' or 'thought' which is placed in God's mind (YUXH (e.g. Op Mund 24, 25; Plant 18-19; Fug 94-102). The parallel correspondences between Timaeus and Philo are as follows: 'model or plan for God's creation' (NOHTOS ZWN) (Tim 30c-31a) // 'God's ideas or model' (KOSMOS NOHTOS) (e.g. Op Mund 24); 'cosmic soul' (YUXH) (Tim 36-37) // 'God's mind' (YUXH) (Op Mund 18, 20); 'the logos as God's thought' (LOGOS KAI DIANOIA) (Tim 38c) // 'the logos' (Leg All 1:24); and 'the reason as God's plan' (LOGISMOS QEOU) (Tim 34a) // 'the reason as the laws' (LOGISMOS) (Op Mund 24).

2) The Logos as the word of YHWH (and wisdom of God): In the context where Philo goes back to the Bible, it shows the figure of God's utterance in accordance with the Jewish creation account in Genesis (e.g. Sacr 8; Fug 95) and the figure of the word of YHWH (Leg All 3:204; Post 102). The wisdom motif as 'divine thought' may correspond to Philo's Logos as 'divine plan' (cf. Quis Rer 199; Leg All 1:43, 65; Leg All 2:86; Fug 97; Somn 2:241-242); and since Philo's theological model of the divine Logos can involve the notion of 'wisdom' (of the Second Temple Period), Philo does not need to employ the wisdom motif for his theological argument.

3) The Logos as the allegorical application to the mediatorial figures in the biblical context: Philo takes several appropriate texts in the books of Moses, and places the Logos in each context. He is interested in the angelic figure (Leg All 3:177-178; Fug 5-6; Quaest Exod 2:13) or other mediator figures, such as Aaron (Heres 205), 'manna' (Leg All 3:174-178; Det 118; Heres 79, 191), or 'water' (Post 127-129; Somn 2:241-242, 246]). Philo also takes up other texts which sound polytheistic (e.g. the LXX rendering of Gen 31:13 and 9:6) and contends that the divine Logos should be placed beside God instead of other autonomous substances, so that the monotheistic view is not reduced at all (Somn 1:227-230; Quaest Gen 2:62).
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/med_logos.html

Now since Philo died about 50 A.D. and John was writing to Greeks and combating Gnosticism, his use of "logos" would have been perfectly clear to the Greeks as God's wisdom becoming flesh in the man Jesus Christ. Gnostics refused to see this and to them "logos" is Sophia (Greek for wisdom is sofia). The ECF's solution to combating Gnosticism was to develop the doctrine of the Trinity.

The next problem I saw with the Trinity is the number of times the NT refers to the Lord as a "man", not as God as well as the number of times the apostles refer to the "God and Father" of the Lord So I embarked on a study of the OT prophecies concering the Messiah (a study, which is not finished).

Genesis 1:26 is used as an OT proof text for God being a compound unity of 3. So I decided to research how an Orthodox Jew understands this verse:

No area of Jewish literature could be more inhospitable to the Christian doctrine of the triune godhead than the Torah and the writings of its prophetic messengers. It is on the strength of these sacred texts that the Jew has preserved the concept of one, single, unique Creator God Who alone is worthy of worship. Understandably, missionaries undertake a formidable task when they seek to “prove” the doctrine of the Trinity from the Jewish scriptures. No prophet went silent on the uncompromising radical monotheism demanded by the God of Israel. The Jewish people, therefore, to whom these sublime declarations about the nature of the Almighty were given, knew nothing about a trinity of persons in the godhead.
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/genesis1-26.html

What suprises me is the anti-Jewish sentiment found among Christians who refuse to accept how Judiasm expalins this verse. The Jews rejected their own Messiah because God partially hardened their hearts (Romans 11:25-26, Hosea 1:10) and so that the OT prophecies could be fulfilled, prophecies that concern a man not a God/man.

John 10:10, my response to Reaper is my response to John 1:1-15.

this is all fancy and eloquently demonstrated, but how in the world can we understand John 1:1 under these precepts?

if you're saying that a "divine plan" was really what John was referring to as "logos" when he wrote John 1:1, how then can a "divine plan" BE God? this "explanation" of this verse seems to pose an even bigger problem for those who deny Jesus' Divinity. Trinitarians maintain that Jesus was Divine and uncreated, so to say that Jesus (logos) was God, is perfectly legitimate.

however to say that God's "divine plan" (an obviously created thing) IS God, is to say something that's even more difficult to sustain.

[absolutetruth]

Aineo wrote:

First, I have not posted or asserted that every time wisdom is used in the OT or the NT for that matter it refers to the Lord.

no, but you did attempt to dismiss what i said by showing that because Hebrews refers to wisdom as Christ, that therefore Proverbs 8 does too.

and if that wasn't what you were saying, you need to be more CLEAR and QUALIFY what you're saying.

Second, I have never denied that Jesus is the Messiah.

YOU ASKED THE QUESTION:
Aineo wrote:

Now, according to the OT prophecies who is the Messiah?

i was just answering the question that you asked. please pay closer attention to what you write so we can avoid unecessary things like this.

And third, those Scriptures are from a Trinitarian source that has listed some of the OT prophecies fulfilled by Jesus the Messiah, so why do you disagree with Trinitarian scholars?

why do you ask questions that have no relevance? i'm not some mindless fool who follows every idea put forth by Trinitarians simply because they are "Trinitarians". why don't you agree with all the ideas given by Jehovah's Witnesses? they're Unitarians like you.

in fact, i disagree with a lot of "Trinitarians" on many issues. my main topic of study is creation. many "Trinitarians" have capitulated to the false ideas of naturalism and long ages or "ruined previous creations" of God (some of which i see you've given in to according to some of your posts), but that in no way leads me to follow those false ideas just because they come from "Trinitarians".

but anyway, to get back on topic before i get deleted again, i don't agree with everything every "Trinitarian" says. i agree with the Bible and that's it. if what they say makes sense and is consistent with the Bible, then great. but i don't base my foundation on what men say.

In Matthew 27:46 Jesus cried out with a loud voice "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me", which is a direct quote from Psalm 22:1.

what does that have to do with anything? what's your point?

As to what you do now, that is up to you.

i meant "what should we move on to next?" i didn't disagree with any of those prophecies. i'm a Trinitarian and see no problem with what you've presented. "what else you got?" is really what i was getting at.

But it seems you reject even those Scriptures used to support that Jesus is the Messiah of the OT by Trinitarians.

i also reject the false ideas of "long-agers" and false interpretations of Bible passages by men. you seem to be implying that "since these people are Trinitarians, therefore you should trust what they say." i don't care what these "Trinitarians" say. if they're wrong, i VEHEMENTLY disagree with them.

so, what else do you want to discuss?

[Aineo]

Aineo wrote:

First, I have not posted or asserted that every time wisdom is used in the OT or the NT for that matter it refers to the Lord.

no, but you did attempt to dismiss what i said by showing that because Hebrews refers to wisdom as Christ, that therefore Proverbs 8 does too.

It is time you take the time to actually read what I post. What you assume I posted was quoted from Adam Clarkes' commentary to show you that commentators view Proverbs 8 as the Lord. Don't jump to conclusions.

and if that wasn't what you were saying, you need to be more CLEAR and QUALIFY what you're saying.

As I posted you need to read, not assume.

Second, I have never denied that Jesus is the Messiah.

YOU ASKED THE QUESTION:
Aineo wrote:

Now, according to the OT prophecies who is the Messiah?

i was just answering the question that you asked. please pay closer attention to what you write so we can avoid unecessary things like this.

Now you are being obtuse. On the thread I locked I agreed that Jesus is the Messiah what I deny is Jesus is God.

And third, those Scriptures are from a Trinitarian source that has listed some of the OT prophecies fulfilled by Jesus the Messiah, so why do you disagree with Trinitarian scholars?

why do you ask questions that have no relevance? i'm not some mindless fool who follows every idea put forth by Trinitarians simply because they are "Trinitarians". why don't you agree with all the ideas given by Jehovah's Witnesses? they're Unitarians like you.

in fact, i disagree with a lot of "Trinitarians" on many issues. my main topic of study is creation. many "Trinitarians" have capitulated to the false ideas of naturalism and long ages or "ruined previous creations" of God (some of which i see you've given in to according to some of your posts), but that in no way leads me to follow those false ideas just because they come from "Trinitarians".

If you have to put a label on me then I am a probably a Biblical Unitarian. And before you get your nose totally out of joint if the Bible you own has cross references look up the above Scriptures and follow the links, or follow the links in the NT to the OT.

but anyway, to get back on topic before i get deleted again, i don't agree with everything every "Trinitarian" says. i agree with the Bible and that's it. if what they say makes sense and is consistent with the Bible, then great. but i don't base my foundation on what men say.

In Matthew 27:46 Jesus cried out with a loud voice "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me", which is a direct quote from Psalm 22:1.

what does that have to do with anything? what's your point?

As to what you do now, that is up to you.

i meant "what should we move on to next?" i didn't disagree with any of those prophecies. i'm a Trinitarian and see no problem with what you've presented. "what else you got?" is really what i was getting at.

But it seems you reject even those Scriptures used to support that Jesus is the Messiah of the OT by Trinitarians.

i also reject the false ideas of "long-agers" and false interpretations of Bible passages by men. you seem to be implying that "since these people are Trinitarians, therefore you should trust what they say." i don't care what these "Trinitarians" say. if they're wrong, i VEHEMENTLY disagree with them.

so, what else do you want to discuss?

I could care less if you disagree with what Trinitarians have taught for the last 1600+ years. The above Scriptures are Messianic prophecies and if you don't want to respond to OT Scriptures then you can retire from this thread.

Your attitude reflects that of a cult member like the UPC who refuse to accept that Yehovah's name was not changed to Jesus in the NT even when we can post Scripture from the NT to prove they are wrong.

[absolutetruth]

absolutetruth wrote:

this is all fancy and eloquently demonstrated, but how in the world can we understand John 1:1 under these precepts?

if you're saying that a "divine plan" was really what John was referring to as "logos" when he wrote John 1:1, how then can a "divine plan" BE God? this "explanation" of this verse seems to pose an even bigger problem for those who deny Jesus' Divinity. Trinitarians maintain that Jesus was Divine and uncreated, so to say that Jesus (logos) was God, is perfectly legitimate.

however to say that God's "divine plan" (an obviously created thing) IS God, is to say something that's even more difficult to sustain.

Aineo, you didn't respond to this.

[Aineo]

Have you read Ephesians?

Ephesians 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
NAS

How can God's thoughts and plans be God? Surely you jest. Your thoughts are part of you, and it is your thoughts that dictate your actions.

Now, this thread deals with the OT prophecies and how they were fulfilled in the NT and if you cannot deal with the OT and stay on topic your posts will be deleted.

[absolutetruth]

Have you read Ephesians?

Ephesians 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
NAS

How can God's thoughts and plans be God? Surely you jest. Your thoughts are part of you, and it is your thoughts that dictate your actions.

Now, this thread deals with the OT prophecies and how they were fulfilled in the NT and if you cannot deal with the OT and stay on topic your posts will be deleted.

wow. big talk coming from someone who has the power to delete other's posts. let me ask you something: can i delete your posts when you go off topic? or rather, can you delete your own posts when you go off topic? i veer as much as you do. i'm just answering your objections. if i can't do that, then how can we discuss these things? you post objections and then we can't answer them? we're supposed to take them as final?

regarding your response, yes i agree. one's thoughts ARE part of that person. but those thoughts aren't THAT person (precisely why they're MY thoughts, not ME). to say that my thoughts ARE me as John 1:1 says the Logos WAS/IS God, is to say something that is incorrect. these thoughts come FROM God. there is something beyond those thoughts that produces them.

and to disagree with that means that something besides God (His thoughts or "plan") has existed eternally with Him, which is exactly what we say. The Word/Son eternally existed with the Father but is distinct from Him. argue against that, and you've just argued against the very defense that you've just given.

which is precisely why Jesus says

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev 1:8 )

demonstrating the Truth of the OT prophecy in Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[absolutetruth]

Aineo wrote:

It is time you take the time to actually read what I post. What you assume I posted was quoted from Adam Clarkes' commentary to show you that commentators view Proverbs 8 as the Lord. Don't jump to conclusions.

As I posted you need to read, not assume.

you're right. i apologize. i didn't really read what you wrote, and i came to a hasty decision. i hadn't really grasped what you posted. my apologies.

[absolutetruth]

Now you are being obtuse. On the thread I locked I agreed that Jesus is the Messiah what I deny is Jesus is God.

i wasn't saying that you weren't. i was just ANSWERING the question you asked.

I could care less if you disagree with what Trinitarians have taught for the last 1600+ years.

you say this as if with a smirk on your face, trying to wiegh me down with this ENORMOUS amount of time (1600+ years) of this being understood this way. but why don't we then look at the 1800+ years (starting with the early church fathers) of the belief that Christ was Divine?

anyway:

The above Scriptures are Messianic prophecies and if you don't want to respond to OT Scriptures then you can retire from this thread.

nope. the above scriptures are correctly understood as Wisdom personified.

[Aineo]

It seems the history of the Trinity and what has been and is still being taught concerning the OT prophecies fulfilled by the Lord are immaterial to you and your own theology.

And you are being obtuse.

[absolutetruth]

Aineo wrote:

Wisdom in Hebrew is a feminine noun, therefore the pronouns should be feminine. Are thoughts gender biased?

interesting. because according to this explanation, we would expect every instance of wisdom to be equally surrounded by feminine pronouns as well. but that's not the case at all. only in these Proverbs.

there are 215 references to Wisdom in the Bible, and none refer to wisdom in the feminine as these proverbs do (except by Jesus in Matthew 11:19, and Luke 7:35, and here He's not speaking of Himself).

therefore, the reference to wisdom is unique in Proverbs 1-8, and the explanation given fails.

[absolutetruth]

:D It seems the history of the Trinity and what has been and is still being taught concerning the OT prophecies fulfilled by the Lord are immaterial to you and your own theology.

And you are being obtuse.

actually we've defended very well the Trinity here. OT and NT. you just keep objecting with your interpretations of these things, built upon axioms of absolute Unitarianism.

i keep telling you, and you're not listening, that you've taken the stance of a negative existential proposition. an absolute negation. so everything must be in your favor. so you can post all the alleged difficulties that you want, but even one verse that clearly shows Christ's Divinity destroys all you stand for.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev 1:8 )

demonstrating the Truth of the OT prophecy in Isaiah 9:6:

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

[Aineo]

there are 215 references to Wisdom in the Bible, and none refer to wisdom in the feminine as these proverbs do (except by Jesus in Matthew 11:19, and Luke 7:35, and here He's not speaking of Himself).

therefore, the reference to wisdom is unique in Proverbs 1-8, and the explanation given fails.

Nice try, but your explanation does not work. When "wisdom" is used as a characteristic of an individual the pronouns used are for the individual. When wisdom is used by itself the pronoun is always feminine as per your examples:

Matthew 11:19
19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
NAS

Luke 7:34-35
35 "Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."
NAS

From the OT:

Proverbs 1:20-22

20 Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;
21 At the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
At the entrance of the gates in the city, she utters her sayings:
22 "How long, O naive ones, will you love simplicity?
NAS

Proverbs 9:1-4
Wisdom has built her house,
She has hewn out her seven pillars;
2 She has prepared her food, she has mixed her wine;
She has also set her table;
3 She has sent out her maidens, she calls
From the tops of the heights of the city:
4 "Whoever is naive, let him turn in here!"
NAS

i keep telling you, and you're not listening, that you've taken the stance of a negative existential proposition. an absolute negation. so everything must be in your favor. so you can post all the alleged difficulties that you want, but even one verse that clearly shows Christ's Divinity destroys all you stand for.

So you appeal to circular logic while ignoring Deuteronomy 6:4

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! NAS

Which is repeated in the NT more than once, even by Jesus:

John 5:44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
NAS

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

Romans 16:27
27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
NAS

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

Galatians 3:20
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. NAS

How do you understand the "only true God", "only wise God", "but one God, the Father", and "God is only one"?

If find amazing that intelligent people through elementary grammar out the window in order to justify a false doctrine. I also find it odd that so many Christians dismiss how Jews understand their own Bible.

Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature and God's appointed heir (Hebrews 1:1-3). As God's heir Jesus is God's agent.

Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself” (Ned. 72b; Kidd. 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.

R. J. Z. Werblowsky and Geoffrey Wigoder, Jewish Encyclopedia

You have not established the Trinity in the OT all you have done is use circular reasoning by starting with a conclusion and working back in an attempt to prove your conclusion.

Isaiah 22:22-23
22 "Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder,
When he opens no one will shut,
When he shuts no one will open.
23 "And I will drive him like a peg in a firm place,
And he will become a throne of glory to his father's house.
NAS

Revelation 3:7
He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:
NAS

[Aineo]

And by the way, I will take God's word over yours any day of the week. So just because you say something is true does not make it true. How you interpret a Scripture is probably interpreted differently by someone else. How do you think Catholics have come up with all their doctrines that contradict God's word?

[absolutetruth]

Nice try, but your explanation does not work. When "wisdom" is used as a characteristic of an individual the pronouns used are for the individual. When wisdom is used by itself the pronoun is always feminine as per your examples:

this still doesn't mean that Christ is being referred to in Proverbs 8. "Wisdom personified" as all of the good commentaries i read agree on, makes more sense.

So you appeal to circular logic while ignoring Deuteronomy 6:4

circular logic? please demonstrate this "circular logic" that i've used.

and Deuteronomy 6:4? the famous Shema passage? you post this passage almost as if i've never seen it before, not realizing that anyone who even has a cursory understanding of the Bible is familiar with this verse. i know this verse and agree with it fully.

Which is repeated in the NT more than once, even by Jesus:

i agree just as much when He uses it.

How do you understand the "only true God", "only wise God", "but one God, the Father", and "God is only one"?

not in isolation but in context with other passages such as Isaiah 9:6:

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [a] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Hebrews 1:8:

But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Revelations 1:8;17-18:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

If find amazing that intelligent people through elementary grammar out the window in order to justify a false doctrine. I also find it odd that so many Christians dismiss how Jews understand their own Bible.

many Jews also don't consider Christ to be the Messiah, or even to be that important frankly. i highly doubt that you would take their views without serious debate simply because they are "Jews".

not to mention the fact that many Jews understand their Bible exactly as i do. that Jesus is clearly Divine. this "appeal to authority" gets you nowhere.

Jesus is the exact representation of God's nature and God's appointed heir (Hebrews 1:1-3). As God's heir Jesus is God's agent.

and He's also ONE with God (John 10:30) and is called God the Almighty (Hebrews 1:8, and Revelations 1:8 ).

You have not established the Trinity in the OT all you have done is use circular reasoning by starting with a conclusion and working back in an attempt to prove your conclusion.

like i said before. we all start with axioms. you have yours and i have mine. the question is, what does the Bible actually support? Jesus' Divinity.

[Aineo]

Circular reasoning is starting with a conclusion and then finding what you need to back up the conclusion.

The Word that became flesh in John 1:1-15 is the wisdom of Proverbs 8.

As to Hebrews 1:8, you and other pick up on the first line and ignore the second line and then do not read Psalm 45 to get the context of what was quoted, which is what a Jew would do.

Psalms 45:1-7
My heart overflows with a good theme;
I address my verses to the King;
My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the sons of men;
Grace is poured upon Thy lips;
Therefore God has blessed Thee forever.

3 Gird Thy sword on
Thy thigh, O Mighty One, In Thy splendor and Thy majesty!
4 And in Thy majesty ride on victoriously,
For the cause of truth and meekness and righteousness;
Let Thy right hand teach Thee awesome things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp;
The peoples fall under Thee;
Thine arrows are in the heart of the King's enemies.

6 Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom.
7 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Thy God, has anointed Thee
With the oil of joy above Thy fellows.
NAS

Deuteronomy 6:4 reads "Behold O' Israel! YHWY is our elohiym, YHWY is echad. Yehova is our god, Yehova is one. Now, since echad is the Hebrew cardinal number one to interpret God as a compound unity is ludicrous.

Isaiah 9:6 tells the name of a child to be born will be Wonderful Counselor (the Holy Spirit), Eternal God and Mighty Father (God, the Father), and Prince of Peace (the Son). This verse can and has been used by the Jesus only cult since it better describes their belief than the Trinity since all the titles are in one name not three persons.

Now move forward to the NT where Jesus uses the phrase "My name" (again not My person) 23 times. And in Philippians 2:9 (and other verses) where we are told it is at the name of Jesus (not the person of Jesus) that every knee will bow.

Put Revelation 1:8 in context starting at vs. 4:

Revelation 1:4-8
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne; 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us, and released us from our sins by His blood, 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father; to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so. Amen.

8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
NAS

Verse 8 is referring to God, not the Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:17 needs to be understood in the context of the whole word of God. Paul wrote:

1 Timothy 6:13-16
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. NAS

This is a description of God, the Father not the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the first and last in God's plan of salvation for mankind, but this verse does not establish Jesus is God.

Taken in full context, which is what this thread is attempting to accomplish the Bible does not teach Jesus is God.

Now, this is the last time I will warn you. The purpose of this thread is to track the Messianic prophecies and how Jesus fulfilled them and in so doing teach us that Jesus is not God. You have repeatedly tried to take this thread off track. The next time you try your account will be terminated. Have I made myself clear?

[beads]

Aineo, is it necessary for the Messianic prophesies to prove that Jesus is God in order for it to be true?

It seems to me to be a logical fallacy for you to say "Looking at a set of prophesies does not prove that Jesus is God, therefore we know that He is not God." Tha's kinda like me saying "Looking at the owner's manual of a car does not prove that the car runs, therefore I know that the car does not run." The argument doesn't hold water.

[Aineo]

Jesus said the prophets foretold Him. Now, if the Messianic prophecies do not prophecy a God/man, then either Jesus was wrong or the prophets were wrong, or the doctrine of Trinity is wrong.

Paul wrote the foundation of our faith is the apostles and the prophets (Ephesians 2:20).

[beads]

Now, if the Messianic prophecies do not prophecy a God/man, then either Jesus was wrong or the prophets were wrong, or the doctrine of Trinity is wrong.

I'm not following this logic.

If the Messianic prophecies do not specifically say that Messiah is God, why does that necessitate the conclusion that either Jesus, the prophets, or the doctrine of the Trinity is wrong?

[Aineo]

That is a simple question to answer,

Matthew 2:22-23
22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he departed for the regions of Galilee, 23 and came and resided in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
NAS

Matthew 11:13
13 "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
NAS

Matthew 26:56
56 "But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets may be fulfilled."
NAS

I posted some of the Messianic prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, have your studied them?

[beads]

That is a simple question to answer, ...

Maybe I'm just dense..... but I don't see how those verses answered my question.

All those verses show is that Jesus fulfilled prophesy.

I posted some of the Messianic prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, have your studied them?

Not in depth. But the one that's always stuck out in my mind is this one:

Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Couple that with:

Matthew 1:22-23
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

and I think you have a pretty good defense of the divinity of Jesus.

Jesus = Immanuel. Immanuel = God. Therefore, Jesus = God

[Aineo]

Actually in order to defend you position you have to equate "his name will be called" to "he is God". You also have to ignore that Joseph and Mary named the Lord Yeshuah (Joshua in English) not Immanuel. Yeshuah means "God with us".

[absolutetruth]

Aineo, is it necessary for the Messianic prophesies to prove that Jesus is God in order for it to be true?

It seems to me to be a logical fallacy for you to say "Looking at a set of prophesies does not prove that Jesus is God, therefore we know that He is not God." Tha's kinda like me saying "Looking at the owner's manual of a car does not prove that the car runs, therefore I know that the car does not run." The argument doesn't hold water.

this is actually right, and makes a lot of sense. to say that the prophecies don't say that the Messiah is gonna be God (although Isaiah 9:6 says that He will be) and that therefore He's not, IS to commit a fallacy in logic.

it makes sense in our understanding of why Jesus came and how His mission was to be accomplished. had the prophecies explicitly said that He was gonna be God, and had the people of the world actually believed this when He came here, who in the world would touch Him??? how would He ever be crucified and accomplish the very thing that He came here to do and make such an example of our lostness and wickedness if He were never made a spectacle of and beat and bloodied and killed?

the very reason that Jesus prevents the demons from speaking in Luke 4:41 supports this very well:

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

the ambiguity (in certain prophecies) helps affirm our belief in the Trinity, not hurt it. and since Jesus claims Divinity in the NT, it all makes sense, and anything else is false and doesn't recognize all of the Bible.

[Aineo]

The logical fallacy is equating a name as being equal to the person who gives the name.

The fact Jesus is the Son of God and was given authority over God's creation including demons is foretold in the OT. However, I see none of you are willing to actually discuss and learn from the OT prophecies concerning God's Messiah.

I guess we will all know for sure when the Lord returns again, if we are alive and if we have died we will know when we either go in or miss the first resurrection.

[absolutetruth]

Jesus said the prophets foretold Him. Now, if the Messianic prophecies do not prophecy a God/man, then either Jesus was wrong or the prophets were wrong, or the doctrine of Trinity is wrong.

Paul wrote the foundation of our faith is the apostles and the prophets (Ephesians 2:20).

OR, the starting points that you're using in framing this argument is wrong.

Beads just answered this. the fact that the prophecies don't say the Messiah IS GOD (although Isaiah 9:6 sure seems to) doesn't mean that He's not. we agree that Jesus was FULLY human, and therefore, all these prophecies agree with the Divine Jesus and His humanity.

[absolutetruth]

The logical fallacy is equating a name as being equal to the person who gives the name.

The fact Jesus is the Son of God and was given authority over God's creation including demons is foretold in the OT. However, I see none of you are willing to actually discuss and learn from the OT prophecies concerning God's Messiah.

I guess we will all know for sure when the Lord returns again, if we are alive and if we have died we will know when we either go in or miss the first resurrection.

what are you talking about? we talked about several OT passages. the problem is, you give your answer, and the others that disagree with you are automatically considered to be wrong by you. you don't even give us the possibility of being right. you dismiss everything and then say we aren't discussing these things sufficiently.

we have given you many scriptures that affirm what we're talking about, and have used logic and good philosophy to back it up. and you choose to ignore all of it and call us wrong. you're a perfect example of what George MacDonald said:

"Nothing good can come if the will is wrong. And to give evidence to him who loves not the truth is only to give him more plentiful material for misinterpretation."

[Aineo]

You have interpreted several Scriptures to defend a manmade doctrine based on tradition.

The NT never tells us that Jesus is God, it tells us He is a man who is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of God's nature. This is far from telling us Jesus is God.

As to Isaiah 9:6, a name does not equate to being what the name describes. All the titles given in Isaiah 9:6 are for God, the Holy Spirit, and the Son so following your logic the Jesus only oneness group is right and the rest of us are wrong.

[absolutetruth]

You have interpreted several Scriptures to defend a manmade doctrine based on tradition.

The NT never tells us that Jesus is God, it tells us He is a man who is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of God's nature. This is far from telling us Jesus is God.

As to Isaiah 9:6, a name does not equate to being what the name describes. All the titles given in Isaiah 9:6 are for God, the Holy Spirit, and the Son so following your logic the Jesus only oneness group is right and the rest of us are wrong.

of course it doesn't say that Jesus is God. not only would that not be exactly correct to say, but it would've been confusing for the Apostles and for the people that were supposed to hear and understand these things. a distinction is made for clarity. but He does claim Divinity whether you choose to see it or not.

regarding the rest of what you said, i think my point and my quote are fully sustained once again.

thank you for talking to me on these issues though. i have learned a WHOLE LOT. you have no idea how much i've learned from you. i thank you for that.

[Aineo]

So your response is Peter, Paul, and the other NT authors lied to their audiences? And they did it for clarity? The NT tells us that Jesus was bodily resurrected into immortality for eternity future, the NT does not tell us Jesus is divine.

What discussion all you have done is pick a couple Scriptures and ignored the rest so I don't see that you learned anything all you have done is avoid discussing God's word.

[beads]

Actually in order to defend you position you have to equate "his name will be called" to "he is God".

Yes, I can concede that point. "His name will be called" is not a logical equivalent to "He is".

The logical fallacy is equating a name as being equal to the person who gives the name.

I can admit to my logical fallacy.

Can you to yours?

The NT never tells us that Jesus is God...

Sure it does.

The fact that Jesus accepted worship from humans (something created beings like angels never do - see Rev. 19:10) shows His deity.

The fact that the Jews wanted to stone Him on many occasions for equating Himself with God, shows that they clearly understood He was claiming to be God. (You, who have tried to be such an advocate for understanding how the Jews interpret their own book, seem to conveniently forget this.)

The titles that are attributed to Jesus clearly speak to His deity - Alpha and Omega; The Almighty; the First and the Last; the King of Kings and Lord of Lords; not to mention the ones that given to Him in the OT (the ones like "the Mighty God")....

And if that's not enough, just consider that all of His words in the Bible are colored Red - clearly this alone must be proof enough!

[Aineo]

I can admit to my logical fallacy.

Can you to yours?

The NT never tells us that Jesus is God...

Sure it does.

The fact that Jesus accepted worship from humans (something created beings like angels never do - see Rev. 19:10) shows His deity.

Does it? In Hebrews 1:6 we read:

Hebrews 1:6

6 And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,
" And let all the angels of God worship Him." NAS

This is a quote from the Septuagint:

Deuteronomy 32:3

43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/Deuteronomy/ ... %20LXX.htm

Therefore when Jesus accepted worship He did so because the Father authorized Jesus to be worshipped.

The fact that the Jews wanted to stone Him on many occasions for equating Himself with God, shows that they clearly understood He was claiming to be God. (You, who have tried to be such an advocate for understanding how the Jews interpret their own book, seem to conveniently forget this.)

Have you studied Judaism? The one aspect of Judaism I am referring to is the Law of Agency, as well as the Jews concept of the first-born son being equal with his father.

The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another (the principal), and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. The person who binds a principal in this manner is his agent, known in Jewish law as sheluaḥ or sheliaḥ (one that is sent): the relation of the former to the latter is known as agency (sheliḥut). The general principle is enunciated thus: A man's agent is like himself (Ḳid. 41b).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... rch=agency

The titles that are attributed to Jesus clearly speak to His deity - Alpha and Omega; The Almighty; the First and the Last; the King of Kings and Lord of Lords; not to mention the ones that given to Him in the OT (the ones like "the Mighty God")....

Read the above article keeping in mind that God appointed Jesus His heir (Hebrews 1:2) and exalted Him as Prince, and Savior (Acts 5:31).

And if that's not enough, just consider that all of His words in the Bible are colored Red - clearly this alone must be proof enough!

[absolutetruth]

So your response is Peter, Paul, and the other NT authors lied to their audiences? And they did it for clarity? The NT tells us that Jesus was bodily resurrected into immortality for eternity future, the NT does not tell us Jesus is divine.

What discussion all you have done is pick a couple Scriptures and ignored the rest so I don't see that you learned anything all you have done is avoid discussing God's word.

i can keep pointing out the same verses that demonstrate His Divinity, and you can keep mistranslating and misinterpreting them. all you do is continue to prove my quote from George MacDonald.

thanks.

[Aineo]

So your response is Peter, Paul, and the other NT authors lied to their audiences? And they did it for clarity? The NT tells us that Jesus was bodily resurrected into immortality for eternity future, the NT does not tell us Jesus is divine.

What discussion all you have done is pick a couple Scriptures and ignored the rest so I don't see that you learned anything all you have done is avoid discussing God's word.

i can keep pointing out the same verses that demonstrate His Divinity, and you can keep mistranslating and misinterpreting them. all you do is continue to prove my quote from George MacDonald.

thanks.

All you do is parrot what you have been taught and refuse to cross reference your proof text with the balance of God's truth. Those so called verses that prove the diety of the Lord require interpretations that deny the plain language meaning of the words and/or ignoring Scripture that explains them in such as way as to deny the divinity of the Lord. So either the Holy Spirit is confused or your interpretations are wrong.

I choose to take the whole word of God into account and not just interpretations of Scritpure.

I have a list of the Scriptures used to try to prove the diety of the Lord so posting them is not doing you any good, since I can refute them all.

[absolutetruth]

So your response is Peter, Paul, and the other NT authors lied to their audiences? And they did it for clarity? The NT tells us that Jesus was bodily resurrected into immortality for eternity future, the NT does not tell us Jesus is divine.

What discussion all you have done is pick a couple Scriptures and ignored the rest so I don't see that you learned anything all you have done is avoid discussing God's word.

i can keep pointing out the same verses that demonstrate His Divinity, and you can keep mistranslating and misinterpreting them. all you do is continue to prove my quote from George MacDonald.

thanks.

All you do is parrot what you have been taught and refuse to cross reference your proof text with the balance of God's truth. Those so called verses that prove the diety of the Lord require interpretations that deny the plain language meaning of the words and/or ignoring Scripture that explains them in such as way as to deny the divinity of the Lord. So either the Holy Spirit is confused or your interpretations are wrong.

I choose to take the whole word of God into account and not just interpretations of Scritpure.

I have a list of the Scriptures used to try to prove the diety of the Lord so posting them is not doing you any good, since I can refute them all.

yeah, thanks. i forgot to mention, you always try to use the word "parrot" too, like some kind of expletive or invective.

it's been a joy discussing these things with you.

[Aineo]

Okay, I will use this phrase "learned by rote".

Isaiah 29:13-14

13 Then the Lord said,

"Because this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,
14 Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous;
And the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the discernment of their discerning men shall be concealed. "
NAS

What discussion all you have done is avoid the topic of the thread.

[absolutetruth]

Aineo wrote:

So your response is Peter, Paul, and the other NT authors lied to their audiences? And they did it for clarity?

this is such an elementary objection. here, let me clarify this point for you since you can't grasp it. as Jonathan Sarfati responded to a skeptic regarding a different issue:

You need to distinguish between Adaptation to human finitude and accommodation to human error: the former does not entail the latter. A mother might tell her four-year-old ‘you grew inside my tummy’—this is not false, but language simplified to the child’s level. Conversely, ‘the stork brought you’ is an outright error.

Similarly, God, the author of Truth, used terms that we could understand. if you want to nit-pick, then why not say that the Bible lies when it talks of Jesus being the "Son of God"? God can't have an actual "son".

like i said before, you need to think about these these things more clearly.

[Aineo]

God cannot have an actual Son? Why not? Who impregnated Mary? Are you sure you are a Christian and not a Muslim since Islam teaches that Allah does not have a son, when the Bible does? Or are you a Jehovah's Witness?

6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee.

You need to distinguish between Adaptation to human finitude and accommodation to human error: the former does not entail the latter. A mother might tell her four-year-old ‘you grew inside my tummy’—this is not false, but language simplified to the child’s level. Conversely, ‘the stork brought you’ is an outright error.

This example is ludicrous since a fetus does grow inside a mother's womb, which is in her tummy, which is slang for abdomen as are belly, pot belly, bay window, and other terms commonly used in our culture.

You keep telling me to think about these things more clearly, well you should do the same. Appealing to men is not going to make your case especially since God tells us the wisdom of men is foolishness to Him.

[beads]

I can admit to my logical fallacy.

Can you to yours?

.... [Nothing]....

So, I see you are not willing to admit your fallacy......

Therefore when Jesus accepted worship He did so because the Father authorized Jesus to be worshipped.

And since when has God ever authorized glory going to anyone other than God?

Never.

The one aspect of Judaism I am referring to is the Law of Agency, as well as the Jews concept of the first-born son being equal with his father.

So, the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy because He claimed to be an agent or spokesperson for God?

Why didn't they ever have this reaction to the prophets, or John the Baptist - they were agents/spokespersons for God? And don't say "but they never claimed to be agents for God." Every time they said "Thus saith the Lord" they were claiming that they were God's spokesperson.

Read the above article keeping in mind that God appointed Jesus His heir (Hebrews 1:2) and exalted Him as Prince, and Savior (Acts 5:31).

Along with appointing Jesus His heir and exalting Him as Prince and Savior, He also gave Him a name. According to Rev. 19:13, that name is "The Word of God". If Jesus is not God, then John 1:1 is a lie.

[Aineo]

The reason I do not admit to a fallacy is I have not jumped to an illogical conclusion based on one OT verse.

Lets talk about glory for a moment.

Luke 9:26
26 "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. NAS

Hebrews 2:7-8
7 "Thou hast made him for a little while lower than the angels;
Thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,
And hast appointed him over the works of Thy hands;
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet." NAS

John 17:4-5
5 "And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. NAS

Now God's angels have glory with God and Jesus did not say "with the glory I shared with Thee".

If Jesus is not God, then John 1:1 is a lie.

If Jesus is God then John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, and 1 Timothy 2:5 plus a whole lot more are lies. Now since God cannot lie the problem is how men have interpreted John's prologue, the problem is not with God's word.

[beads]

The reason I do not admit to a fallacy is I have not jumped to an illogical conclusion based on one OT verse.

Perhaps not.

But it still is a fallacy to say that OT prophesies not stating that Jesus is God is proof that Jesus is not God.

Lets talk about glory for a moment.

Point taken on "glory". I used the wrong word......

When has God ever authorized worship to go to anyone other than God.

If Jesus is God then John 17:3... [is a lie].

How so?

This verse only says that Jesus was sent by the Father.

If Jesus is God then 1 Corinthians 8:6... [is a lie].

I see where you are trying to go with this, but the verse does not say that the "one God" and "one Lord" are exclusive persons.

The point of the passage is to show that even though there are many things that are called gods and lords, there is only one God and there is only one Lord. It is not a lie to say that God can fill both of those positions in two manifestations (Father and Son).

If Jesus is God then Ephesians 4:6... [is a lie].

Basically the same argument as 1 Cor. 8:6.

If Jesus is God then 1 Timothy 2:5... [is a lie].

Jump back to verse 3 of this passage. "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour"

I always thought Jesus was the Savior..... but here it says "God" is the Savior. What's the conclusion?


... By the way, you did a fine job cherry-picking at the remainder of my previous post.

You completely skipped over my comments on your "Law of Agency" defense.

And you in no way tried to offer up any explanation for how Rev 19:13 can coexist with John 1:1, other than to say that my understanding is lacking. If I am lack understanding, then whay are you unable to refute me?

[Aineo]

When has God ever authorized worship to go to anyone other than God.

Really?

Hebrews 1:6
6 And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,

" And let all the angels of God worship Him." NAS

Would you care to rethink your response?

If Jesus is God then John 17:3... [is a lie].

How so?

This verse only says that Jesus was sent by the Father.

If Jesus is God then 1 Corinthians 8:6... [is a lie].

I see where you are trying to go with this, but the verse does not say that the "one God" and "one Lord" are exclusive persons.

How does John 17:3 state only that Jesus was sent by the Father? As to 1 Corinthians 8:6 "and" is a conjunction that connects two independent people, thoughts, and etc. And although it can be used to connect adjectives that describe the same person or object when used in this sense you will not find two names of two people as in Adam and Eve or you and I.

The point of the passage is to show that even though there are many things that are called gods and lords, there is only one God and there is only one Lord. It is not a lie to say that God can fill both of those positions in two manifestations (Father and Son).

If Jesus is God then Ephesians 4:6... [is a lie].

Basically the same argument as 1 Cor. 8:6.

If Jesus is God then 1 Timothy 2:5... [is a lie].

So you have chosen to ignore "but for us" in 1 Corinthians 8:6, how the conjunction "and" is used in Ephesians 4:6 and in 1 Timothy 2:5 as well as the word "man" in 1 Timothy 2:5.

Jump back to verse 3 of this passage. "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour"

I always thought Jesus was the Savior..... but here it says "God" is the Savior. What's the conclusion?

That in accordance with what Peter taught God exalted a man to be mankind’s Savior by the Law of Agency.

... By the way, you did a fine job cherry-picking at the remainder of my previous post.

You completely skipped over my comments on your "Law of Agency" defense.

And you in no way tried to offer up any explanation for how Rev 19:13 can coexist with John 1:1, other than to say that my understanding is lacking. If I am lack understanding, then whay are you unable to refute me?

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, which is the point of John's prologue. God's first-born of all creation was His word or have you forgotten that God spoke our physical universe into existence? BTW, you did not refute the Law of Agency you sidestepped the Law of Agency.

[REAPER]

When has God ever authorized worship to go to anyone other than God.

Really?

Hebrews 1:6
6 And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,

" And let all the angels of God worship Him." NAS

Would you care to rethink your response?

By your own admission, you are in fact telling us that God authorized Jesus (who isn't God) to be worshipped. Aineo, do you realize that if Jesus isn't God, then God Himself is telling us to commit "idolatry" since worshipping a mere creation is tantamount to IDOLATRY. See the 2nd commandment (Exodus 20:3-5). So does God change or lie?

Would you care to rethink your response?

[Aineo]

I stand on my statement. God highly exalted the man Jesus Christ and since God can do as He pleases I don't think you have any more right than Job did for questioning what God has done and tells us to do. However, what does the word worship mean? It can mean to honor above all other men or created beings.

NT:4352

proskuneoo, proskunoo;
a. of homage shown to men of superior rank: absolutely, Matthew 20:20
b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings, and to demons: John 4:20
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

[REAPER]

I stand on my statement. God highly exalted the man Jesus Christ and since God can do as He pleases I don't think you have any more right than Job did for questioning what God has done and tells us to do. However, what does the word worship mean? It can mean to honor above all other men or created beings.

NT:4352

proskuneoo, proskunoo;
a. of homage shown to men of superior rank: absolutely, Matthew 20:20
b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings, and to demons: John 4:20
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

It was apparent in your initial response that you believed that Jesus received "worship" in the fullest sense as in Deified worship, since God authorized this. If you now believe that "worship" προσκυνέω [proskuneo] merely means to "do obeisance" then you are guilty of what you accuse others of doing, i.e. "striving over words". If you were to use a New World Translation of the Bible, you will notice that in Hebrews 1:6 it says "…And let all God's angels do obeisance to him." Now if we were to take the 1961 edition (as used in the 1969 Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (KIT), it reads, "…And let all God's angels worship him." Whats with the translation change? What is also noticely disturbing is that every time "proskuneo", the Greek word for "worship", is used in reference to God the Father, it is translated "worship" (Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, and Jn. 4:20). Yet every time the same word is used in reference to Jesus Christ (as in the earlier examples) it is translated "do obeisance". Do you see the inconsistency and bias? You have done the same, and yet I am incorrect in translating "kai" [and] to [even]? Your not telling me that your ears are itched are you?

[Aineo]

Your assumptions are getting a bit tiresome. I have been trying to get my older brother and his oldest son to leave JW's for a couple decades. You need to actually read what I post instead of assuming that you know what I believe and why I believe what I believe. Also you might try to do more than a quick and cursory study of the OT prophecies and how they relate to the NT instead of assuming that God is confused and promoting idol worship.

Matthew 2:1-2
2 "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him." NAS

Matthew 2:10-12
11 And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh. 12 And having been warned by God in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed for their own country by another way. NAS

Who did the wise men or magi worship, a god or a King?

As to striving over words, it seems you are the one who wants to limit "worship" to mean worshipping God.

[GraceAndPeaceInChrist]

Colossians 1:18=>He is also head of the body,the church;and He is the beginning,the firstborn from the dead;so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything.

Colossians 2:9=>For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form

Hebrews 1:6=>And when He(Jehovah) brings the firstborn(of the dead,Jesus)into the world,He(Jehovah) says,"And let all the angels of God worship Him(Jesus)

----------------
So if Jesus is not God why does his father command all the angels to worship him?

[GraceAndPeaceInChrist]

Any argument you have is answered and rebuked in the Word of God.There has never been such a thing as "king worship" by God's elect

Revelation 22:8-9=>And I,John,am the one who heard and saw these things.And when I heard and saw,I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.And he said to me,"Do not do that;I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book;WORSHIP GOD

John 1:1=>In the beginning was the word(Jesus),and the word(Jesus) was with God,and the word was God(Jesus)

-----
Look at the Triunity in that sentence.

Explain to me the word Elohim which is plural.And Adonai Echad(A composite unity of God).This is why Moses Maimodidies in the Talmud refused to use the word Echad instead yachid(absolute oneness).But the original Hebrew text reads echad.

[Aineo]

GraceAndPeaceInChrist, I suggest you read all three threads before you jump to conclusions based on your own opinions and the opinions of men who ignored most of God's word when they developed the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Trinity is defeated by God's word as I have adequately shown anyone who is open to God's truth.

[Believer]

Who did the wise men or magi worship, a god or a King?

As to striving over words, it seems you are the one who wants to limit "worship" to mean worshipping God.

The Bible states in many places, and I've shown you many verses, that God is this King. God is the King, and Jesus is the King. Go figure. The magi worshipped this lowly baby of unnoble birth not because he was some great earthly king, but a heavenly King. You're far from making an adequate conclusion that Jesus isn't of one nature with God.

[Aineo]

Once again you miss the obvious from Scripture since the Lord is descended from King David and was not of unnoble birth and like King David was anointed God's King over the sons of Abraham. Who are those who believe and are transferred into the kingdom of God's Son? Heirs of Abraham according to God's promise.

You have not refuted the OT Messianic prophecies.

[Believer]

Once again you miss the obvious from Scripture since the Lord is descended from King David and was not of unnoble birth and like King David was anointed God's King over the sons of Abraham. Who are those who believe and are transferred into the kingdom of God's Son? Heirs of Abraham according to God's promise.

You have not refuted the OT Messianic prophecies.

Mary and Joseph were poor common folk, this king wasn't an earthly King that the magi worshipped, but a heavenly King. That's what I meant.

Jesus came from the house of David, but having a virgin birth, Jesus was not actually a physical relative of David in a literal sense. Jesus was preexistent and only descended into a specially created seed. This in itself attests to Christ's divine nature.

[Aineo]

Read Matthew 1 and Luke 3 where you find the two genealogies of the Lord. Joseph and Mary were both descended from King David, Joseph through the line of Solomon and Mary through the line of Nathan. As to the Lord not being an earthly king that is your take on why the magi traveled to Bethlehem and denies what is recorded in Scripture. Jesus is the King of kings by descent and the anointing of God (Psalms 2).

Now do you think you can stick to the thread topic or are you going to pull your usual tactic and try to take this thread off topic, which concerns the Messianic prophecies fulfilled by the Lord?

[Believer]

Now do you think you can stick to the thread topic or are you going to pull your usual tactic and try to take this thread off topic, which concerns the Messianic prophecies fulfilled by the Lord?

Maybe this issue needs to be elaborated on.

Read Matthew 1 and Luke 3 where you find the two genealogies of the Lord. Joseph and Mary were both descended from King David, Joseph through the line of Solomon and Mary through the line of Nathan. As to the Lord not being an earthly king that is your take on why the magi traveled to Bethlehem and denies what is recorded in Scripture. Jesus is the King of kings by descent and the anointing of God (Psalms 2).

Why do you think Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a mule? Jesus isn't an earthly king, final. That's a fact. end of story there. There's a prophecy about this, so this isn't off topic. The magi came and worshipped Jesus as a heavenly King. If they saw this poor family with a baby, and they expected an earthly king, they'd have walked away.
As prophecy reveals, Jesus is a preexistent heavenly King and Son of God Almighty. He descended into Mary's womb into a specially created seed. If Jesus was literally a descendant of David, Jesus couldn't have preceeded David! C'mon Aineo, take into account all things about Christ.

Jesus is the King, the Redeemer and Savior of Israel and the world! That has real meaning.

[Aineo]

How about quoting the prophecy and where you find that magi worshipped Jesus as a heavenly king? This thread is to discuss the Bible not your opinions. Now, in Revelation we are told the Lord will reign on earth for 1000 years. I would also like to read in Scripture where the Lord was born from a specially created seed since in Genesis 3 we read the first prophecy of the coming Messiah that refers to the seed of the woman not a specially created seed.

And no, your opinion is not the end of the story.

[Believer]

It all comes together, Aineo.
Observe this prophecy carefully:

Isaiah 60
A Glorified Zion
1"(A)Arise, shine; for your (B)light has come,
And the (C)glory of the LORD has risen upon you.
2"For behold, (D)darkness will cover the earth
And deep darkness the peoples;
But the LORD will rise upon you
And His (E)glory will appear upon you.
3"(F)Nations will come to your light,
And kings to the brightness of your rising.
4"(G)Lift up your eyes round about and see;
They all gather together, they (H)come to you
Your sons will come from afar,
And your (I)daughters will be carried in the arms.
5"Then you will see and be (J)radiant,
And your heart will thrill and rejoice;
Because the (K)abundance of the sea will be turned to you,
The (L)wealth of the nations will come to you.
6"A multitude of camels will cover you,
The young camels of Midian and (M)Ephah;
All those from (N)Sheba will come;
They will bring (O)gold and frankincense,
And will (P)bear good news of the praises of the LORD.
7"All the flocks of (Q)Kedar will be gathered together to you,
The rams of Nebaioth will minister to you;
They will go up with acceptance on My (R)altar,
And I shall (S)glorify My glorious house.
8"(T)Who are these who fly like a cloud
And like the doves to their lattices?
9"Surely the (U)coastlands will wait for Me;
And the (V)ships of Tarshish will come first,
To (W)bring your sons from afar,
Their silver and their gold with them,
For the name of the LORD your God,
And for the Holy One of Israel because He has (X)glorified you.
10"(Y)Foreigners will build up your walls,
And their (Z)kings will minister to you;
For in My (AA)wrath I struck you,
And in My favor I have had compassion on you.
11"Your (AB)gates will be open continually;
They will not be closed day or night,
So that men may (AC)bring to you the wealth of the nations,
With (AD)their kings led in procession.
12"For the (AE)nation and the kingdom which will not serve you will perish,
And the nations will be utterly ruined.
13"The (AF)glory of Lebanon will come to you,
The (AG)juniper, the box tree and the cypress together,
To beautify the place of My sanctuary;
And I shall make the (AH)place of My feet glorious.
14"The (AI)sons of those who afflicted you will come bowing to you,
And all those who despised you will bow themselves at the soles of your feet;
And they will call you the (AJ)city of the LORD,
The (AK)Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15"Whereas you have been (AL)forsaken and (AM)hated
With no one passing through,
I will make you an everlasting (AN)pride,
A joy from generation to generation.
16"You will also (AO)suck the milk of nations
And suck the breast of kings;
Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your (AP)Savior
And your (AQ)Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
17"Instead of bronze I will bring gold,
And instead of iron I will bring silver,
And instead of wood, bronze,
And instead of stones, iron.
And I will make peace your administrators
And righteousness your overseers.
18"(AR)Violence will not be heard again in your land,
Nor (AS)devastation or destruction within your borders;
But you will call your (AT)walls salvation, and your (AU)gates praise.
19"No longer will you have the (AV)sun for light by day,
Nor for brightness will the moon give you light;
But you will have the (AW)LORD for an everlasting light,
And your (AX)God for your glory.
20"Your (AY)sun will no longer set,
Nor will your moon wane;
For you will have the LORD for an everlasting light,
And the days of your (AZ)mourning will be over.
21"Then all your (BA)people will be righteous;
They will (BB)possess the land forever,
The branch of My planting,
The (BC)work of My hands,
That I may be (BD)glorified.
22"The (BE)smallest one will become a clan,
And the least one a mighty nation.
I, the LORD, will hasten it in its time."

In this passage, we see a prophecy that reflects the magi offering gifts to Christ. We see initially the image of preexistent Jesus, after coming to earth as a lowly man, He as man the Father glorifies as a divine King. Howeever, the Lord reveals Himself to alone be the Redeemer and Savior. The passage reveals the God Himself is this servant glorified. This makes sense when you read Phillipians 2. Jesus was in the form and nature of God and came to earth as a lowly man whom the Father glorified. This makes more sense because Jesus was their in the beginning with the Father. Our "light" is God as Jesus.

[Aineo]

And what did Peter preach in Acts 2 and 5?

Acts 2:14-36
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea, and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give heed to my words. 15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says,
'That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even upon My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.
19 'And I will grant wonders in the sky above,
And signs on the earth beneath,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 'The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
21 'And it shall be, that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him,
'I was always beholding the Lord in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 'Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will abide in hope;
27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
28 'Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
Thou wilt make me full of gladness with Thy presence.'
29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet. "'
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-- this Jesus whom you crucified."
NAS

Acts 5:29-32
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, "We must obey God rather than men. 30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." NAS

God appointed the man Jesus to be our Savior therefore God is our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. Jude puts it this way:

Jude 24-25

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
NAS

Now I see you did not answer my question concerning Jesus being born from a specially created seed. You need to respond to your own comments that are not backed up by God's word. Do I need to set some conditions for you to participate on this board? I can and I will if you make idiotic comments and then refuse to back them up with something more than fairy tales.

[Believer]

Now I see you did not answer my question concerning Jesus being born from a specially created seed. You need to respond to your own comments that are not backed up by God's word. Do I need to set some conditions for you to participate on this board? I can and I will if you make idiotic comments and then refuse to back them up with something more than fairy tales.

I thought this would be to obvious to comment further on. Okay, so Jesus had a virgin birth. Obviously the embryo is not created by a sperm and egg. God forms a special seed in Mary for the divine preexistent Jesus.

Your verses show specifically that Jesus was a man, do you ever see me deny this? No, but that isn't the whole story.

Phillipians 2:5-11
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
but although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This coincides with the prophecies which speak of a man, who is glorified, and later it's revealed that God Himself is that individual because God is alone the Savior, the King, the Redeemer, the Holy One, etc. Jesus's divine preexistent Godhood seems to create a challenge to the idea Jesus was a man, and only a man, and a man like us, a son of Adam.

The Jews believed this, or at least the ones during Biblical times.

John 10:33
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Wisdom 2:16
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.

Wisdom contains valid prophecies because they coincide with what exists in the Gospels.
This relationship between Jesus and the Father is something more complex than you at the current moment believe.

[Aineo]

So what you are telling us is that Mary is not the mother of the Lord, she was simply a hired servant so to speak like any modern surrogate mother? That puts your whole Mary, the mother of God belief out to be a lie. It also denies Genesis 3:15 since if Jesus was born of a specially created egg then the seed was not of the woman it was of God.

Now, why did you avoid what Jude wrote? As to the Philippians verse, the Son emptied Himself of His human pride and ego and took on the form of a servant, which takes us back to the Messianic prophecies concerning God's servant. Also we all exist in the form (image) of God.

I see you are quick to dismiss what Peter said by appealing to an assumption, which is called circular logic and is a logical fallacy. No where is Scripture are we told Jesus is fully God.

[Believer]

So what you are telling us is that Mary is not the mother of the Lord, she was simply a hired servant so to speak like any modern surrogate mother? That puts your whole Mary, the mother of God belief out to be a lie. It also denies Genesis 3:15 since if Jesus was born of a specially created egg then the seed was not of the woman it was of God.

Yes, Mary is just a surrogate mother, and God glorified her because of her special role.
Considering Jesus has existed when all was created, He existed before Adam and all men. Yes, His seed was created directly by God to house Jesus.

Now, why did you avoid what Jude wrote? As to the Philippians verse, the Son emptied Himself of His human pride and ego and took on the form of a servant, which takes us back to the Messianic prophecies concerning God's servant. Also we all exist in the form (image) of God.

I see you are quick to dismiss what Peter said by appealing to an assumption, which is called circular logic and is a logical fallacy. No where is Scripture are we told Jesus is fully God.

What Jude said was the God is our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, because Jesus and God are on the same level and share the same nature. How can I support this? That's what my previous posts have supported. Let's look at this prophecy and it's compliment in John:

Wisdom 2:16
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

The Father and SOn relationship is seen in OT prophecy, and the Jews knew the Son was on equal grounds with the Father...very Trinitarian. SO the support is in prophecy and scripture.

In Phillipians, in regards to the preceding verse and supported with the two verses I gave here, Jesus was in the form and glory of God and emptied Himself of this preexistent Godly glory and became a lowly man. He could have came down with His awesome power and might like in His second coming. The Jews thought He'd come down in his all power and glory, so they dismissed Jesus's first coming.

We are created in God's image, but we don't exist in the form of God. No sir, that's a different thing. That means Jesus and God are of the same nature, pretty much. The Jews even knew to be the Son and have God as the Father is to claim equality with God. Can't debate that which is in scripture, or can ya? Jesus is either God in nature or He isn't. So, if He is equal with God and existed with God before all creation then He is God. Similar to John 1:1. God is equal with Himself. True God from true God.

[Aineo]

So what you are telling us is that Mary is not the mother of the Lord, she was simply a hired servant so to speak like any modern surrogate mother? That puts your whole Mary, the mother of God belief out to be a lie. It also denies Genesis 3:15 since if Jesus was born of a specially created egg then the seed was not of the woman it was of God.

Yes, Mary is just a surrogate mother, and God glorified her because of her special role.
Considering Jesus has existed when all was created, He existed before Adam and all men. Yes, His seed was created directly by God to house Jesus.

So you are calling the Holy Spirit a liar? Don't you think this is blaspheming the Holy Spirit especially since God made a covenant with Abraham that involved his "seed" not a specially created seed? Tell me Believer is what you posted the official stance of the Catholic Church or just your opinion?

What Jude said was the God is our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, because Jesus and God are on the same level and share the same nature. How can I support this? That's what my previous posts have supported. Let's look at this prophecy and it's compliment in John:

Wisdom 2:16
He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.

John 5:18
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Since Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and in the Hebrew culture the son is equal with the father your assumption only reveals your ignorance of the Hebraic roots of Christianity. Scripture does not tell us the Son has the Father's nature, Scripture tells us the Son is the exact representation of God's nature. What is God's nature? This can be answered with one word -- "love".

Both John and Wisdom tell us Jesus is the Son of God, which agrees with Psalm 2:

Psalms 2
1
Why are the nations in an uproar,
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand,
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His
Anointed:
3 "Let us tear their fetters apart,
And cast away their cords from us!"
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury:
6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee.
8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Thine inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Thy possession.
9 'Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron,
Thou shalt shatter them like earthenware.' "
10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
Take warning, O judges of the earth.
11 Worship the LORD with reverence,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Do homage to the Son, lest He become angry, and you perish in the way,
For His wrath may soon be kindled.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! NAS

Now, it seems you would rather appeal to fantasies to support a manmade doctrine based on the tradition of men who used Greek pagan religious and secular philosophy to come up with many of the doctrines found in Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

You cannot find the Trinity in the Old Testament.

[Believer]

So you are calling the Holy Spirit a liar? Don't you think this is blaspheming the Holy Spirit especially since God made a covenant with Abraham that involved his "seed" not a specially created seed? Tell me Believer is what you posted the official stance of the Catholic Church or just your opinion?

This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. Jesus became a man and came from the house of David. The virgin birth happened for a reason, it wasn't a random miracle like what the Muslims believe. It happened for a reason because as we both should agree on that Jesus was a preexistent being. He existed before Adam, David, Abraham...how can you rationalize around this?

Since Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and in the Hebrew culture the son is equal with the father your assumption only reveals your ignorance of the Hebraic roots of Christianity. Scripture does not tell us the Son has the Father's nature, Scripture tells us the Son is the exact representation of God's nature. What is God's nature? This can be answered with one word -- "love".

Both John and Wisdom tell us Jesus is the Son of God, which agrees with Psalm 2:

6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee.

The relationship between the Father and Son is omething very complex and interesting. If love was all, the Jews wouldn't have tried to kill Jesus enraged over blaspheme. In their minds, to be the Son was to be equal with the Father in a more literal sense. Scripture shows that God is the Light, the Savior, the Redeemer, the King, the Holy One. God is these things, and Jesus is these things. There's more to the picture than a man that is glorified. Jesus's role puts him well above mankind, He was there with the Father before man was even created.

Now, it seems you would rather appeal to fantasies to support a manmade doctrine based on the tradition of men who used Greek pagan religious and secular philosophy to come up with many of the doctrines found in Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

You cannot find the Trinity in the Old Testament.

It's there, you for some odd reason are afraid to believe that Jesus is truly the Lord. It seems very odd to many here. There's nothing to be afraid of.

the apostle Thomas further supports my claim

John 20:28
Thomas said to him[Jesus], "My Lord and my God!"

That is definitely not man made baloney. That is hard core scriptural evidence for Jesus's Godhood. Jesus can't be partially God. He is fully God or not at all. Here it's stated directly that Jesus is fully God. It coincides with the other verses I provided about the Son being equal to the Father.

[Aineo]

What does Islam have to do with this discussion? And you did not answer my question concerning the Catholic Church's official position on the seed that the Holy Spirit fertilized. You also avoided the Abrahamic covenant.

Thomas excited utterance does not establish your thesis and you are again trying to take a thread off topic by not discussing the Messianic prophecies.

Now, if you cannot stick to the thread topic I will delete your posts.

You also are jumping to conclusions just like John 10:10 did since he also did not read what I posted. I have not denied that Jesus is Lord. I deny that Jesus is God. The Messiah is the prophesied Savior of the Jews since the Messiah is the prophesied agent of God who will rule from the throne of David. David even refers to Him as "my Lord" in Psalm 110.

Psalms 110
1 A Psalm of David.

The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet."
2 The LORD will stretch forth Thy strong scepter from Zion, saying,
"Rule in the midst of Thine enemies."
3 Thy people will volunteer freely in the day of Thy power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Thy youth are to Thee as the dew.
4 The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind,
"Thou art a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."

The Hebrew word translated LORD is YWHW, therefore a better translation would be "Yehovah said to my Lord". David did not prophecy "Yehovah said to my God". Lord does not equate to God.

Jesus had a unique relationship with the Father in that Yehovah is Jesus' literal Father since He miraculously impregnated Mary. However Jesus was a man as per the Messianic prophesies that the Lord fulfilled.

[Believer]

What does Islam have to do with this discussion? And you did not answer my question concerning the Catholic Church's official position on the seed that the Holy Spirit fertilized. You also avoided the Abrahamic covenant.

I'm not avoiding things, but if Jesus preexisted mankind and at one time was alone with the Father, why would his seed contain genetic material from other men? Tell me why and how. It would appear only logical for God, through the Holy Spirit, to create an seed in Mary that is miraculous.
The Abrahamic covenant isn't the covenant that's as relevant here, it's God's covenant with David that from his "house" Jesus will come. Jesus isn't David's great great...grandkid literally, because Jesus preexisted David! I keep bringing that up because it's very important.

Thomas excited utterance does not establish your thesis and you are again trying to take a thread off topic by not discussing the Messianic prophecies.

Now, if you cannot stick to the thread topic I will delete your posts.

You also are jumping to conclusions just like John 10:10 did since he also did not read what I posted. I have not denied that Jesus is Lord. I deny that Jesus is God. The Messiah is the prophesied Savior of the Jews since the Messiah is the prophesied agent of God who will rule from the throne of David. David even refers to Him as "my Lord" in Psalm 110.

I am sticking to the topic, but I have support! The Jews found Jesus's boasting of God as His Father as acclaiming Himself this "Son of God" figure from their prophecies. They didn't hate him because He loves people, but they saw the Son figure as having equality with the Father. They believed Jesus was calling Himself God. Now Thomas called Jesus "Lord and God" and Christ said immediately after that those who believe without seeing and hearing are blessed. He didn't condemn Thomas as expected if that profound statment were untrue. This shows that what I say here is coherent and stands. Christ's divinity is supported in scripture, that in itself you need to accept.

Jesus had a unique relationship with the Father in that Yehovah is Jesus' literal Father since He miraculously impregnated Mary. However Jesus was a man as per the Messianic prophesies that the Lord fulfilled.

Jesus was a man and the prophecies He fulfilled were earthly prophecies concerning the Gospels. But, there's alot more too it.

In the prophecies we see that near the end God Himself states that He is the Savior, Redeemer, etc, must I repeat myelf again and again. To be this Son to to be equal with the Father as a heavenly King, Savior, Lord, the Light, etc. Jesus and the Father have the same titles! They are equals. True God from true God, Only God is equal to Himself. Thomas, the Jews, and others knew the Son was God. Also taking into account that Jesus was there at creation shows his position with the Father is far more than "dad".

[Aineo]

You are just full of assumptions. How do you get that Jesus preexisted creation? It is a historical fact Jesus was born in Bethlehem in about 2 B.C. I don't know of anyone who believes that Jesus the man was around when God created the physical world.

Also when you bring in NT Scriptures that are not the fulfillment of the Messianic prophesies you are taking this thread off topic. There are two other threads dealing with the NT and why Jesus is not God.

And you are avoiding what Scripture tells us in Genesis 3 and 22 with you fairy tale story that God created a special egg and implanted it in Mary.

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel. " NAS

Genesis 22:15-19
15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham lived at Beersheba. NAS

So the fact that Abraham was the father of Isaac, who was the father of Jacob whose name was changed to Israel, who was the father of Judah, which is the tribe that produced David is irrelevant to God's truth? Then why do you think Matthew started his genealogy with Abraham and not David?

Your interpretation of Scripture is weird to say the least especially in view of what both Jesus and Peter said:

Matthew 22:41-46

41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question,42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, "The son of David." 43 He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying,

44'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
Until I put Thine enemies beneath Thy feet"'?

45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?" 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.
NAS

Acts 2:22-31
22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him,

'I was always beholding the Lord in my presence;
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 'Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted;
Moreover my flesh also will abide in hope;
27 Because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades,
Nor allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
28 'Thou hast made known to me the ways of life;
Thou wilt make me full of gladness with Thy presence.'

29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. NAS

Now if God created a special egg that is not of David's line either Scripture is false or your interpretation is nothing more than a pipe dream you are trying to use to avoid God's promises made to both Abraham and David. And since God cannot and does not lie I will take His word over yours.

[Administrator]

Thomas excited utterance does not establish your thesis and you are again trying to take a thread off topic by not discussing the Messianic prophecies.

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him(JESUS), My LORD and my God.

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This is my office and my co-workers in their cubicles (I'm the one laughing). All my friends here at work (some who aren't even Christians) AGREE that you are the KING of taking that verse way, way, way, out of context.

[Aineo]

One verse does not make a doctrine. What is interesting about John 20:28 and the other verses used to establish the Trinity is they can also prove the Jesus only oneness position. As to taking John 20:28 out of context, just how is seeing Thomas words as an excited utterence taking it out of context? Just 2 verses earlier Thomas totally denied the resurrection as well as the Lordship of Jesus. If any group is taking this verse out of context it is Trinitarians who refuse to address those Scriptures that show the Trinity is a false doctrine.

BTW, you can reregister under a new screen name since the use of "Administrator" could be misleading to those who might think your authority matches your moniker, which it does not so "administrator" has been added to the disallowed list.

Now are you also one of those who cannot stick to a thread topic? This thread deals with the OT not the NT text that are not the fulfillment of Messianic prophesies.

[Believer]

You are just full of assumptions. How do you get that Jesus preexisted creation? It is a historical fact Jesus was born in Bethlehem in about 2 B.C. I don't know of anyone who believes that Jesus the man was around when God created the physical world.

Jesus "the man" wasn't, but Jesus in His "other" nature was. My signature verse even states that. That's in scripture.

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel. " NAS

Genesis 22:15-19
15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham lived at Beersheba. NAS

So the fact that Abraham was the father of Isaac, who was the father of Jacob whose name was changed to Israel, who was the father of Judah, which is the tribe that produced David is irrelevant to God's truth? Then why do you think Matthew started his genealogy with Abraham and not David?

41 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question,42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, "The son of David." 43 He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying,

Matthew 22:41-46
44'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
Until I put Thine enemies beneath Thy feet"'?

45 "If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?" 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.
NAS

My position is the same in Matthew 22 which shows that Jesus isn's a son of David. Jesus came from the house of David, this is how I interpret the verses. Matthew 22 even tells how Jesus can't be a physical descendant of David. Right, or have I misunderstood?

29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet, and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants upon his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay. NAS

Now if God created a special egg that is not of David's line either Scripture is false or your interpretation is nothing more than a pipe dream you are trying to use to avoid God's promises made to both Abraham and David. And since God cannot and does not lie I will take His word over yours.

From the house of David came Jesus, from a special seed in Mary. Joseph would be the accepted descendant of David and his sperm wasn't involved in Jesus's conception.
God doesn't lie. God in prophecy tells us that He ALONE is the Savior, Redeemer, Lord, the Light, etc. The Jews and Thomas even knew the Son was equal to God. Phillipians 2 tells us that Jesus was once in the form and level of God and emptied Himself coming to earth as a servant, then was reglorified again when He ascended to "His place" by the Father. He was further glorified now that He is revealed and He shall be our King forever and ever. Jesus a man like you and me? Don't see that. God is our King, and Jesus is our King.

[Aineo]

The Hebrew culture is matriarchal, which in case you do not understand the term means ethnic descent is through the female line. There is no Biblical evidence that Jesus was the product of a specially created egg. On the other hand if your thesis is correct then the Holy Spirit lied with Genesis 3:15 and Genesis 22 as well as the promise God made to David.

Also in view of the fact the Pharisees were so bound up in their traditions the fact they did not understand Psalm 110 is a poor argument for the Trinity, which you cannot establish from the OT.

Now, since you continue to avoid an honest discussion of Biblical prophesy with your outlandish theories any further post made by you or any other member that does not stick to the thread topic will be deleted in its entirety.

[Believer]

Now, since you continue to avoid an honest discussion of Biblical prophesy with your outlandish theories any further post made by you or any other member that does not stick to the thread topic will be deleted in its entirety.

Excuse me, but this all is connected and is very much pertaining to prophecies and the Messiah. You on occasion say things like this and it appears suspicious.

The Hebrew culture is matriarchal, which in case you do not understand the term means ethnic descent is through the female line. There is no Biblical evidence that Jesus was the product of a specially created egg. On the other hand if your thesis is correct then the Holy Spirit lied with Genesis 3:15 and Genesis 22 as well as the promise God made to David.

Also in view of the fact the Pharisees were so bound up in their traditions the fact they did not understand Psalm 110 is a poor argument for the Trinity, which you cannot establish from the OT.

Then help me understand how Jesus can be a son of David if He preexisted David, and all men in fact! If through Him all thing were made, Jesus was there in the beginning. David saw Jesus and called Him "Lord".

[GraceAndPeaceInChrist]

GraceAndPeaceInChrist, I suggest you read all three threads before you jump to conclusions based on your own opinions and the opinions of men who ignored most of God's word when they developed the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Trinity is defeated by God's word as I have adequately shown anyone who is open to God's truth.

Explain Elohim which is plural.When you are one to agree with an Orthodox Jew i get very worried.Rabbinic Judaism is a heresy.

Let us make man in OUR image.Explain that one.

Shema Israel,Adonai Eloheinu,Adonai Echad.Baruch Shem K'vod Malcuto L'lolam vaeed translated as:4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. [a]5Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:4-5

Why need to mention Lords name three times?

Also how can you(being a created being)begin to explain the nature and proponents of God.

The Word of God reads:Before Abraham Was,I AM-KJV

a version that was made against all Popery and all blashpemy of a Pagan Trinity(which is 3 separate gods,and Mary worship)

to the TRUE trinity(God has three proponents,The Father,The Son,and the Holy Spirit,all three are ONE)it would be better to describe them to you as PERSONALITIES because you severly misunderstand the Trinity.

You might as well run with Islam,Mormons,JW's,Bahai,Judaism,and every other religion which deny the Deity of Christ.

"Enter ye the straight gate,for wide and broad is the gate which leadeth to destruction.Because narrow is the way that leadeth to life,and few be that find it"-On the Mount

How broad and wide are the FALSE faiths which deny the Deity of our Blessed Lord,denying the very Word of God,NOT A PHILOSOPHY.

[Aineo]

Believer the title "lord" designates a position of authority, not deity. David was lord to Jesse his father since David was the king.

GraceAndPeaceInChrist, I see you have decided to jump into the middle of a discussion without reading the whole discussion. I also see you have not taken time to research your own position concerning elohiym being a plual irregular Hebrew nown.

This argument, however, is grievously flawed. In fact, a great number of Trinitarian Christian scholars have long abandoned the notion that Genesis 1:26 implies a plurality of persons in the godhead. Rather, Christian scholars overwhelmingly agree that the plural pronoun in this verse is a reference to God’s ministering angels who were created previously, and the Almighty spoke majestically in the plural, consulting His heavenly court. Let’s read the comments of a number of preeminent Trinitarian Bible scholars on this subject. For example, the evangelical Christian author Gordon J. Wenham, who is no foe of the Trinity and authored a widely respected two-volume commentary on the Book of Genesis, writes on this verse,

Christians have traditionally seen [Genesis 1:26] as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author.1

If you had attended any one of my lectures you would know that the New International Version is hardly a Bible that can be construed as being friendly to Judaism. Yet, the NIV Study Bible also writes in its commentary on Genesis 1:26,

Us . . . Our . . . Our. God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court. (see 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; I Kings 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jeremiah 23:18)2

Charles Caldwell Ryrie, a highly regarded dispensationalist professor of Biblical Studies at the Philadelphia College of Bible and author of the widely read Bible commentary, The Ryrie Study Bible, writes in his short and to-the-point annotation on Genesis 1:26,

Us . . . Our. Plurals of majesty.3

The Liberty Annotated Study Bible, a Bible commentary published by the Reverend Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, similarly remarks on this verse,

The plural pronoun “Us” is most likely a majestic plural from the standpoint of Hebrew grammar and syntax.4

The 10-volume commentary by Keil and Delitzsch is considered by many to be the most influential exposition on the “Old Testament” in evangelical circles. Yet in its commentary on Genesis 1:26, we find,

The plural “We” was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity; modern commentators, on the contrary, regard it either as pluralis majestatis . . . No other explanation is left, therefore, than to regard it as pluralis majestatis . . . .5

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/genesis1-26.html

I also find your explanation of Deuteronomy a bit forced. The Hebrew word translated LORD is YWHW and is better translated Yehovah. So lets see what God is telling us in verse 4. "Yehovah is our God (elohiym), Yehovah is one".

Now if all you want to do is judge what is posted in an apologetics forum without knowing what you are talking about I suggest you refrain from posting. I will not respond to people who are simply parroting what they have been taught especially when your "proofs" have been addressed on this an other threads.

[Believer]

Believer the title "lord" designates a position of authority, not deity. David was lord to Jesse his father since David was the king.

My point also was that Jesus preexisted David, so how could He be David's son? That I wouldn't understand.

Thomas called Jesus God because He understood the prophecies and Jesus, and Jesus then said blessed are those who believe without seeing. The relationship between the Father and Son is more deep and complex than what you seem to believe. You're not taking into account a number of important facts that are shown in scripture.

[Aineo]

In Hebrew culture any male descendent of David no matter how distant can be referred to as the son of David. In Matthew's genealogy David is called the son of Abraham and Jesus the Son of David.

As to Thomas' exclamation:

John 20:24-29

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I shall see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

26 And after eight days again His disciples were inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst, and said, "Peace be with you." 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand, and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving, but believing." 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." NAS

If Thomas has understood the prophecies why did he have to see the Lord enter a locked room before he believed? Your explanation denies what is recorded in John. Also to base a doctrine on just John 20:28 while ignoring the overwhelming Biblical evidence that Jesus did not physically preexist Abraham, and is not God is a bit ludicrous. After all, you take exception with the cults who base their theology on more than just one verse and then appeal to John 20:28 and Matthew 28:19 to support the Trinity?

Now, this is the last time I will post this warning. This thread deals with the Messianic prophecies not the NT. I have given you links to the threads dealing with the NT and the Trinity. Your next post that goes off topic will be deleted.