WHAT DOES THE BIBLE THINK OF JESUS

[Newcastle_r_united]

HI

im a Christian but I dont accept the divinity of Jesus (unitarian) and NO IM NOT Jehovas witness, but i dont believe in the trinity and in fact, quite a few Christians (trinitarian) have said outright that im not a Christian. Oh well, im ok with that, i know what I believe.

But a quick...lol, ok not quick question to the trinitarians... what do u think of sum parts of the Bible. The words are there, check them up if you dont believe them. Ill give you the quotes.

Deut 6:4 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord.
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I am Lord and besides me there is no saviour
I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me
Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me
Exodus 20:3-5 Thou shall have no other Gods besides me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God.
Deut 5:7-9 You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth. you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God...


1. John 14:28 My Father is greater than I2. John 10:29 My Father is greater than ALL
3. Matt 12:28 I cast out Devil with the Spirit of God
4. Luke 11:20 I with the finger of God cast out devils
5. John 5:30 I can of my own self do nothing. As i hear I judge and my judgement is just because I seek not my will but the will of my Father who has sent me
6. Matt 5:17-20 Think not that I am come do destroy the law and the Prophets, I have come not to destroy, but to fulfil for verily I say unto you till the heaven and earth pass one jot or one tittle shall not pass from the law until all be fulfilled. And whosoever therefore shall break one of the least comandments and teach men to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. And whosoever shall keep them and teach them so the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For verily, unless your righteousness exceeds the righteusness of the scribes and the pharisees, in no way shall you enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:24 The words that you hear are not mine but it's my Father's who has sent me John 17:3This is eternal life so that you may know that there is one true God and Jesus Christ who thou hast sent.
Matt 19:16-17 Good master, what good things shall i do that i may attain eternal life, And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, [that is], GOD: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Acts 2:22 O men of Israel. Jesus of Nazareth a man approved by God amongst you by miracles and wonders and signs which God did by him in your prescence as you know.
Mark 12:29 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.

Dont just quote something else, it doesnt make these statements go away!

I look forward to hearing your comments.

Thanks

[Aineo]

First of all welcome to JCF. Now would you define how you are using "uniterian"? Most Christians equate "uniterian" with "uniterian universalism", which is a cult.

[absolutetruth]

HI

im a Christian but I dont accept the divinity of Jesus (unitarian) and NO IM NOT Jehovas witness, but i dont believe in the trinity and in fact, quite a few Christians (trinitarian) have said outright that im not a Christian. Oh well, im ok with that, i know what I believe.

unfortunately, they're right. in order to truly be a Christian, one must recognize that Christ is Divine, part of the Godhead, come in human form to die for our sins, and accept that gift through faith. if your beliefs fall outside of that, you cannot truly be called a Christian. even a Muslim believes what you believe about Jesus. we wouldn't call them Christians.

Deut 6:4 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord.

Jesus even refers to this passage in Matthew 22:37, recognizing its truth, and yet making Himself equal with God (John 10:30, John 10:33).

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I am Lord and besides me there is no saviour

this quote demonstrates the opposite of what you're talking about. Jehovah is here saying that He is the only Saviour. Christ claims that He is the Saviour of the world (John 3:17). so in order for Jesus to be our Saviour, He must be our God.

I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me
Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me
Exodus 20:3-5 Thou shall have no other Gods besides me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God.
Deut 5:7-9 You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth. you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God...

this is perfectly true, under the correct understaning of the Trinity. Jesus isn't another "God". He's Divine, part of the ONE Godhead, along with the Father and Holy Spirit.

1. John 14:28 My Father is greater than I2. John 10:29 My Father is greater than ALL

and in verse 30 He claims to be one with the Father. how can this be if He's not Divine?

this also misunderstands Jesus' humanity. He was fully human and He was made a little lower than the angels for a time in order to fulfill the plan of redemption through His sacrifice.

3. Matt 12:28 I cast out Devil with the Spirit of God
4. Luke 11:20 I with the finger of God cast out devils
5. John 5:30 I can of my own self do nothing. As i hear I judge and my judgement is just because I seek not my will but the will of my Father who has sent me

God will Judge the ends of the earth (1 Samuel 2:10). if Jesus has been given all authority to judge (John 5:25-27), He must be Divine.

6. Matt 5:17-20 Think not that I am come do destroy the law and the Prophets, I have come not to destroy, but to fulfil for verily I say unto you till the heaven and earth pass one jot or one tittle shall not pass from the law until all be fulfilled. And whosoever therefore shall break one of the least comandments and teach men to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. And whosoever shall keep them and teach them so the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For verily, unless your righteousness exceeds the righteusness of the scribes and the pharisees, in no way shall you enter the kingdom of heaven.

the book of Hebrews explains the law and the Prophets and the necessity for Jesus' sacrifice (Hebrews 9:22).

John 14:24 The words that you hear are not mine but it's my Father's who has sent me John 17:3This is eternal life so that you may know that there is one true God and Jesus Christ who thou hast sent.
Matt 19:16-17 Good master, what good things shall i do that i may attain eternal life, And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, [that is], GOD: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Acts 2:22 O men of Israel. Jesus of Nazareth a man approved by God amongst you by miracles and wonders and signs which God did by him in your prescence as you know.
Mark 12:29 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.

you need to understand Jesus' humanity. He became FULLY human, and submitted Himself to the will of the Father.

when Jesus says to the man "Why do you call me good? There is none good but God?" He's saying to the man: "Are you calling me God? And if you are, are you willing to listen to my words?"

Dont just quote something else, it doesnt make these statements go away!

I look forward to hearing your comments.

Thanks

good questions. my answers aren't exhaustive, i don't have the time right now, but i hope we have clarified a little something at least.

respond with any objections you have and we can deal with them. thanks.

[amdntstr]

1 John 4:

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

and

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.


Jesus also says that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him

John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Ok the bible also says that Jesus is the Word.

John 1: 1 - 51 - Study This Chapter

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[Aineo]

Are those who maintain that belief in the Trinity correct when they say one must believe in the Trinity in order to be a Christain? My Bible tells me that we are saved through grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Where do you find that Christians have to believe that Jesus is God?

[amdntstr]

Look in the above scriptures that I posted. Here I will again quote myself:

Jesus is the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

OK there are two more ways to go about this. The first is that God created the Earth and He said "Let us"


Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth F6 upon the earth.



OK here
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.





and then there is that the Earth was created by Jesus:

Eph 3:
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Ok the next way to look at this. The Lord is God and Jesus is Lord

Acts 4:
23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

and

Mr 12:29 - Show Context
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Acts 10:
10:36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

1 Corinthians 12:1-11
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: F41 and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Phil 2:
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Ge 2:4 - Show Context
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Ge 2:5 - Show Context
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Ge 2:7 - Show Context
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ge 2:8 - Show Context
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Ge 2:9 - Show Context
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Ge 2:15 - Show Context
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Ge 2:16 - Show Context
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Ge 2:18 - Show Context
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Ge 2:19 - Show Context
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Ge 2:21 - Show Context
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

Ge 2:22 - Show Context
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Ge 3:1 - Show Context
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Ge 3:8 - Show Context
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Ge 3:9 - Show Context
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Ge 3:13 - Show Context
And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Ge 3:14 - Show Context
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Ge 3:21 - Show Context
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Ge 3:22 - Show Context
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Ge 3:23 - Show Context
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

And that is just one book!!!

[amdntstr]

Here is another one:
OK Verse first and then the greek translation:

22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23 "BEHOLD , THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL ," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

OK strong's concordence:

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 1694 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
emmanouel of Hebrew origin (06005)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Emmanouel None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
em-man-oo-ale' Noun Masculine

Definition
Emmanuel = "God with us"
the title applied to the Messiah, born of the virgin, Mt 1:23, Is. 7:14, because Jesus was God united with man, and showed that God was dwelling with man



And Lord of Lords:



1Ti 6:15
which He will bring about at the proper time --He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Re 17:14
"These will wage war against the Lamb , and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

Re 19:16
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Strong's Number: 2962 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
kurioß from kuros (supremacy)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Kurios 3:1039,486
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
koo'-ree-os Noun Masculine

Definition
he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
the possessor and disposer of a thing
the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
this title is given to: God, the Messiah


Isa 7:14 - Show Context
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isa 8:8 - Show Context
"Then it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass through, It will reach even to the neck; And the spread of its wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.

With the Hebrew definition:

Strong's Number: 6005 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
lawnmm[ from (05973) and (0410) with a pronominal suffix inserted
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
`Immanuw'el TWOT - 1640d
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
im-maw-noo-ale' Proper Name Masculine

Definition
Immanuel = "God with us" or "with us is God"
symbolic and prophetic name of the Messiah, the Christ, prophesying that He would be born of a virgin and would be 'God with us'

[absolutetruth]

Are those who maintain that belief in the Trinity correct when they say one must believe in the Trinity in order to be a Christain? My Bible tells me that we are saved through grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Where do you find that Christians have to believe that Jesus is God?

oops. maybe i'm too absolute in my remark.

however, what (or who) are you talking about putting this "faith" in? in a creation of God? of course not.

and if Christ be not Divine, then what's wrong with the Jehovah's witness stance or Mormon stance (on this particular issue of course)?

i'm thinking of passages like John 5:22-23:

22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

and Alistair Begg commenting on this verse says, "If it is actually impossible not to honor the Father except in the righteous honor of the Son, then those who claim to honor the Father without honoring the Son, do not honor the Father, therefore they must have spiritual power from somewhere. Where?"

a Christian (by the least of definitions) means one who follows the teachings of Christ, and puts faith in Him for their salvation and atonement of their sins. well one of His teachings is that He is One with the Father (Divine).

now keep in mind we're talking about whether a person can truly be called a Christian, not whether one is going to be saved as one. For as some theologians and philosophers like John Macarthur and C.S. Lewis have pointed out that there are prostitutes and other such people from the lowest modes of life that are actually closer to salvation than some of the highest of the “religious” elite.

maybe i'm completely wrong here.

[absolutetruth]

nice stuff "amdntstr",

but i think he’s talking about whether knowing specifically that Jesus is Divine is necessary for salvation. All three of us agree that the Bible clearly describes that He is. There’s no way that we can’t see that.

I think he’s talking about whether it’s necessary for salvation to believe or understand that Jesus is Divine, rather than just the fact that we’re saved through grace by faith alone (apart from realizing that Jesus is Divine).

is that right?

[amdntstr]

Are you speaking to me? If so, you have to believe that Jesus is Lord and as I showed above the Lord is God, this would mean that in order to have faith in Jesus, you must believe that He is Divine and God.

You have to confess that "Jesus is Lord" to be saved and you have to be saved to be a christian. There are many who lay claim to the name but that does not mean that they are Christians.

Many will say "Lord, Lord" and He will not know them.

[amdntstr]

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

and

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[amdntstr]

again:
Philippians 2:

1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[absolutetruth]

Are you speaking to me? If so, you have to believe that Jesus is Lord and as I showed above the Lord is God, this would mean that in order to have faith in Jesus, you must believe that He is Divine and God.

You have to confess that "Jesus is Lord" to be saved and you have to be saved to be a christian. There are many who lay claim to the name but that does not mean that they are Christians.

Many will say "Lord, Lord" and He will not know them.

my apologies. i guess you did understand what he was saying. thanks for the info brother.

[amdntstr]

Your welcome.

(ps. I am a girl)

[absolutetruth]

Your welcome.

(ps. I am a girl)

wow. what a STUPID assumption i made. my apologies again.

thank you sister.

[Aineo]

Look in the above scriptures that I posted. Here I will again quote myself:

Jesus is the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Actually this should read "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." The fact you changed God's word is rather disconcerting.

Does the Bible tell us Jesus created the world or that God created through Jesus? Again you are changing and/or interpreting how the Bible acutally reads and you did not respond to what I posted concerning how we are saved.

Now, as to Genesis:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. NAS

Read vs. 27 where the pronouns change from us and our to His.

What was Jesus' Hebrew name? It was not Immanuel it was Yashuah, which means God is Salvation, not God is with us. You quoted Matthew 1:23, which is a quote from Isaiah:

Isaiah 7:14-16
14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15 "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. 16 "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.
NAS

Does God need to learn to refuse evil and choose good?

absolutetruth, what makes you think I agree that Jesus is God? And amdntstr if what you posted is all you have to prove your point then you had better get some more information. Also your logic behind why Jesus is Lord and God is Lord equates to Jesus being God is a bit fallacious. In the OT David, Saul, and many other men are called Lord due to their position as king.

Paul wrote:

Romans 5:12-16
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
NAS

1 Timothy 2:5-7
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NAS

Newcastle_r_united, has posted a valid question and raised an interesting question. Does the Bible teach Jesus is God or is this concept a manmade doctrine? There is a lot of evidence in the Bible that Jesus was and still is a man and not God.

[amdntstr]

[amdntstr]

Ah wrong. Not only did I post the scripture that showed the Jesus is the Word, Here let me do so again:
Jesus also says that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him

John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Ok the bible also says that Jesus is the Word.

John 1: 1 - 51 - Study This Chapter

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

I can also show where Jesus is the Light. But lets look at what this says.

The Word is God and verse 14 says the the Word was made Flesh. Huh! Sure seems to me that my statement that "Jesus is the Word and the Word is God" kind of correct doesn't it?

As far as the Immanuel is concerned. As the Nt stated Jesus is Immanuel.

Mat 1:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found R12 to be with child by the Holy Spirit. ]
19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly
20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived F in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23 "BEHOLD , THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL ," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

Or are you trying to say that the NT is incorrect? Jesus being born in the flesh as a man is the fulfilment of the prophecy. He was man on the Earth but was God before He came to the Earth and was God when He left the Earth.


Now unto Jesus is Lord. I showed you the Greek translation that showed that Lord is used to mean God and that God was called Lord. I also went further to show where Jesus is Lord of Lords.

I also showed where you must confess that Jesus is Lord to be saved.

I can't help it if you aren't able to follow me.

[Aineo]

One can confess that Jesus is Lord and still not believe or accept that Jesus is God. I am not saying the NT is incorrect. Matthew 1:23 says "they shall call His name Immanuel, meaning God with us", but Matthew 1:23 does not say Jesus is God. Isaiah 7:14 is only one of many OT prophecies concerning the Messiah. Have you read all the prophesies concerning the suffering Messiah?

Also you did not respond to the Scriptures I posted that state Jesus is a man.

[amdntstr]

John 1 does and yes, Matthew does as well. It states pretty clearly that Jesus is Immanuel (God is with us).

:shrugs:
Believe what you wish.
It is only my job to show the Word, it is up to the HS to convict of the Truth.

Willing to agree to disagree

[Aineo]

John 1 does and yes, Matthew does as well. It states pretty clearly that Jesus is Immanuel (God is with us).

:shrugs:
Believe what you wish.
It is only my job to show the Word, it is up to the HS to convict of the Truth.

Willing to agree to disagree

So am I but since God is clear we are to have no other gods before Him I suggest you make sure that the Bible teaches Jesus is God, which it does not. The concept that Jesus is God came out of Catholic/Orthodox church councils and is not found in the Bible. There are some verses that taken out of context can be used to show this concept but when you take the whole word of God as a unit the Bible teaches us that Jesus is God's servant, anointed Messiah, and a man who God highly exalted that at His name every knee will bow. Read Peter's sermon in Acts 2, you cannot find where Peter refers to Jesus as God. Peter refers to Jesus as God's servant.

[Aineo]

Following are some of the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah. Read them carefully and with discernment since these prophesies concern a man, not God.

Genesis 3:15
5 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel. " NAS

Genesis 12:3
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed. " NAS

Genesis 28:14
14 Your descendants shall also be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. NAS

Genesis 49:10
10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes,
And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples. NAS

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 'And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. NAS

2 Samuel 7:16
16 And your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever."' " NAS

Psalms 2
1
Why are the nations in an uproar,
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand,
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His
Anointed:
3 "Let us tear their fetters apart,
And cast away their cords from us!"
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury:
6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee.
8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Thine inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Thy possession.
9 'Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron,
Thou shalt shatter them like earthenware.' "
10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
Take warning, O judges of the earth.
11 Worship the LORD with reverence,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Do homage to the Son, lest He become angry, and you perish in the way,
For His wrath may soon be kindled.
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! NAS

Psalms 16:10-11
10 For Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol;
Neither wilt Thou allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.
11 Thou wilt make known to me the path of life;
In Thy presence is fulness of joy;
In Thy right hand there are pleasures forever. NAS

Psalms 22
1 For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar.
A Psalm of David.

My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but Thou dost not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet Thou art holy,
O Thou who art enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In Thee our fathers trusted;
They trusted, and Thou didst deliver them.
5 To Thee they cried out, and were delivered;
In Thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm, and not a man,
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 "Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."
9 Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb;
Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts.
10 Upon Thee I was cast from birth;
Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb.
11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13 They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18 They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But Thou, O LORD, be not far off;
O Thou my help, hasten to my assistance.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth;
And from the horns of the wild oxen Thou dost answer me.
22 I will tell of Thy name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise Thee.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Neither has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25 From Thee comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD.
Let your heart live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before Thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's,
And He rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the LORD to the coming generation.
31 They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it. NAS

Isaiah 7:13-16
13 Then he said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well? 14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15 "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. 16 "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken. NAS

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. NAS

Isaiah 28:16-18
16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
17 "And I will make justice the measuring line,
And righteousness the level;
Then hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies,
And the waters shall overflow the secret place.
18 "And your covenant with death shall be canceled,
And your pact with Sheol shall not stand;
When the overwhelming scourge passes through,
Then you become its trampling place. NAS

Isaiah 42:1-3
1
"Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold;
My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the nations.
2 "He will not cry out or raise His voice,
Nor make His voice heard in the street.
3 "A bruised reed He will not break,
And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish;
He will faithfully bring forth justice. NAS

Isaiah 49:1-6
1
Listen to Me, O islands,
And pay attention, you peoples from afar.
The LORD called Me from the womb;
From the body of My mother He named Me.
2 And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword;
In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me,
And He has also made Me a select arrow;
He has hidden Me in His quiver.
3 And He said to Me, "You are My Servant, Israel,
In Whom I will show My glory."
4 But I said, "I have toiled in vain,
I have spent My strength for nothing and vanity;
Yet surely the justice due to Me is with the LORD,
And My reward with My God."
5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him
(For I am honored in the sight of the LORD,
And My God is My strength),
6 He says, "It is too small a thing that
You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations
So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth." NAS

Isaiah 50:5-6
5 The Lord GOD has opened My ear;
And I was not disobedient,
Nor did I turn back.
6 I gave My back to those who strike Me,
And My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard;
I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting. NAS

Isaiah 52:13-15
13 Behold, My servant will prosper,
He will be high and lifted up, and greatly exalted.
14 Just as many were astonished at you, My people,
So His appearance was marred more than any man,
And His form more than the sons of men.
15 Thus He will sprinkle many nations,
Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him;
For what had not been told them they will see,
And what they had not heard they will understand. NAS

Isaiah 53
1
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face,
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living,
For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors. NAS

Isaiah 61:1-3
1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
Because the LORD has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives,
And freedom to prisoners;
2 To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified. NAS

Daniel 9:25-26
25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. NAS

Hosea 2:23
23 "And I will sow her for Myself in the land.
I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion,
And I will say to those who were not My people,
'You are My people!'
And they will say, 'Thou art my God!'" NAS

Micah 5:2
2 "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity." NAS

Zechariah 2:10-11
10 "Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," declares the LORD. 11 "And many nations will join themselves to the LORD in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. NAS

Zechariah 6:12-13
12 "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts," Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. 13 "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."' NAS

Zechariah 12:10
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born. NAS

Zechariah 13:6-9
6 "And one will say to him, 'What are these wounds between your arms?' Then he will say, 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'
7 "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
And against the man, My Associate,"
Declares the LORD of hosts.
"Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered;
And I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 "And it will come about in all the land,"
Declares the LORD,
"That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.
9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are My people,'
And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'" NAS

Malachi 3:1-2
1 "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. NAS

In every Scripture where you read LORD the Hebrew is YHWH and should be translated Yehovah.

Here is just one NT Scripture that shows Jesus is not God:

Ephesians 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. NAS

Does God have a God?

[absolutetruth]

absolutetruth, what makes you think I agree that Jesus is God?

man! my apologies again. i keep assuming things. i'm making a fool of myself here.

the reason i thought that is because you seem so orthodox ("orthodox" being defined by me in this case as a Trinitarian) in all your views that i've seen so far. i didn't realize that you believed what you're saying you do. i hadn't even considered it.

And amdntstr if what you posted is all you have to prove your point then you had better get some more information. Also your logic behind why Jesus is Lord and God is Lord equates to Jesus being God is a bit fallacious. In the OT David, Saul, and many other men are called Lord due to their position as king.

and i agree with this (somewhat), which is why i didn't try this line of reasoning. although, we have to admit, it can clearly be demonstrated that Jesus is called Lord in a far different way than Saul or anyone else is in the OT. this is firmly supported by the fact that nobody lived a sinless life except Christ. so the other people who may have been called "Lord" ipso facto become excluded from being called "Lord" in the same sense in which we're talking about. Christ didn't sin, and therefore isn't excluded from being God in human flesh (since this is a charactaristic that we would expect from God should He present Himself humanly).

now of course, that doesn't mean that He actually IS God in human flesh, it just means that He's not excluded like the others are, so He can't be referred to as "Lord" in the same sense they are, that's all.

and even God refers to other "gods" in the OT, but that doesn't mean that He really is saying that there are other actual "gods" existing as He does. we can see from context and proper hermeneutics that He was utilizing language that we could understand.

so attempting to demonstrate that since Jesus is called Lord in the NT; and others are referred to as "Lord" in the OT but they were just men; that therefore calling Jesus Lord in the NT is the same as the examples in the OT is to commit a fallacy in logic. in plain language:

"Just because two things have one thing in common, therefore they have everything in common."

so i would say that your argument doesn't work.

[absolutetruth]

Here is just one NT Scripture that shows Jesus is not God:

Ephesians 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. NAS

Does God have a God?

this is too simplistic as well. you can grab tens of verses that say that Jesus is the Son of God. in normal language those verses would be just as equal to saying that "God has a God" (as you put it) as well. so why just use this verse?

the problem arises when we see verses where Jesus is claimed to be more than a man, and when He even claims Himself that He is One with the Father, or that when you have seen Him, you have seen the Father.

now could a man be a man and be God as well? of course not. but could God, become a man, and still be God? certainly, since God is Spirit (John 4:24).

you can't just grab verses that seem to deny the claim to Divinity without looking at the ones that affirm it. and the negative stance is the more difficult stance since a mere man, a creation, claiming to be One with God would be blasphemy of the highest order. however, there's nothing blasphemous about God coming in human form.

i don't see how your position is sustainable, other than questioning whether Jesus actually made the claims that are ascribed to Him in the New Testament. which is a whole other discussion.

so what is your belief system anyway? are you a Jehovah's Witness or something? just wondering. thanks.

[amdntstr]

John 1 does and yes, Matthew does as well. It states pretty clearly that Jesus is Immanuel (God is with us).

:shrugs:
Believe what you wish.
It is only my job to show the Word, it is up to the HS to convict of the Truth.

Willing to agree to disagree

So am I but since God is clear we are to have no other gods before Him I suggest you make sure that the Bible teaches Jesus is God, which it does not. The concept that Jesus is God came out of Catholic/Orthodox church councils and is not found in the Bible. There are some verses that taken out of context can be used to show this concept but when you take the whole word of God as a unit the Bible teaches us that Jesus is God's servant, anointed Messiah, and a man who God highly exalted that at His name every knee will bow. Read Peter's sermon in Acts 2, you cannot find where Peter refers to Jesus as God. Peter refers to Jesus as God's servant.

Actually it does, just like the scriptures that I showed. A simple man? COme on.

Yes God talks about other Gods. BUt as Jesus is GOd, I never said that He was a seperate God. THere is only one God. But just like a leaf is made up of 3 parts it is still only one leaf, so is God. The gods that you are using are the pagan gods not Jesus being God Himself.

[amdntstr]

Following are some of the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah. Read them carefully and with discernment since these prophesies concern a man, not God.

Genesis 3:15
5 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel. " NAS

Not about Jesus. I can not see how you think that it is.

Genesis 12:3
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed. " NAS

Again this was to Abraham not about Jesus, except that Jesus (God) will be here by the line of Abrshsm. Besides, Jesus didn't come from human seed. That is what makes Him different. Sorry not going to work.

Genesis 28:14
14 Your descendants shall also be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. NAS

Again proves nothing. To save me time and risk repeating myself, not going to work. None of these prove your point.

[Aineo]

absolutetruth, I posted 26 OT prophecies that show the prophecied Messiah (Christ) is a man and then I posted one NT verse that shows Jesus is not God. I thought you might do some research but lets go deeper into the NT shall we?

Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) and the exact representation of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). Paul wrote:

1 Timothy 2:1-7
2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NAS

You cannot find a Scripture that states Jesus is God.

Now, to understand some of what Jesus said about Himself you have to understand Hebrew culture. Jesus as the Son of God would be rendered all the perogatives given to His Father by men and as the first-born would be considered the Father's equal. Therefore Jesus and the Father are one but that does not mean that Jesus is God.

In Acts 10 we read where God sent Peter to preach the gospel to Cornelius. Here is part of what Peter preached:

Acts 10:42-43
42 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." NAS

You can read the balance of that sermon for yourself, but we read that God appointed Jesus as the Judge (Lord) of the living and the dead. If Jesus is God then did Jesus appoint Himself as the Judge of the living and the dead?

In Revelation 3 Jesus uses the phrase "My God" 5 times. God does not have a God.

The Trinity is a doctrine developed and partially defined at the First Council of Nicea. The Council of Constantinople added the Holy Spirit thereby completing the Trinity as it is taught today. In other words the doctrine of the Trinity is a manmade doctrine.

[absolutetruth]

Aineo wrote:

absolutetruth, I posted 26 OT prophecies that show the prophecied Messiah (Christ) is a man and then I posted one NT verse that shows Jesus is not God. I thought you might do some research but lets go deeper into the NT shall we?

well that post wan't responding directly to something i said, so i didn't read it all. i'll look at it though. and also, i already responded to the NT passage you gave.

but if what you've just said is the point of that post, then i disagree not at all. you seem to misunderstand the fact that we agree that Jesus was FULLY human. all those OT passages that show His humanity moves us neither here nor there. we don't disagree there.

and just as well, i asked you some questions too, which you haven't answered. what is it that you believe? what school of thought, or religion do you belong to, or more closely identify with?

Jesus is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) and the exact representation of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3).

i don't disagree with that verse. i disagree with how you're implying "One God". i think of our "One God" as the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). and under that framework, the verse works fine because Jesus is the Mediator. now if the verse said "One God (ONLY the Father)", then i would have a problem.

a good analogy for the Trinity (the best i'm aware of anyway) is Time. there are three aspects of Time (Past, Present, and Future), but ONE essence of "Time". if God (in this verse) represents "Time" for this analogy, then Jesus (Present) would be distinct from Past, but still part of "Time".

according to this analogy as I'm relating it to this verse, it's saying that there's One Time (Past, Present, Future), and One Mediator (Present) between Time and Men. switch it back to the language of the verse and we get One God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), and One Mediator (Christ Jesus) between God and men.

this analogy may sound foolish, but these verses are not what we're questioning. we're questioning the axioms one uses in interpreting the verses.

You cannot find a Scripture that states Jesus is God.

of course we can. read John 1:1-2;14. there are also lots of other verses that show His Divinity.

i think what you meant to say was "You cannot find a Scripture where Jesus Himself states that He is God." if this is the case, then show me where Jesus says "I am a Prophet." or "I am a man." He doesn't say those things either, but we know He was both. so that gets us nowhere as well.

Now, to understand some of what Jesus said about Himself you have to understand Hebrew culture. Jesus as the Son of God would be rendered all the perogatives given to His Father by men and as the first-born would be considered the Father's equal. Therefore Jesus and the Father are one but that does not mean that Jesus is God.

this is completely false, even by your own reasoning. because you've said several times that there's ONE GOD. if Jesus (not being Divine as you persist) was "equal" with God, then that would make Him God. anything other than that means that you need to re-word that statement.

In Acts 10 we read where God sent Peter to preach the gospel to Cornelius.

You can read the balance of that sermon for yourself, but we read that God appointed Jesus as the Judge (Lord) of the living and the dead. If Jesus is God then did Jesus appoint Himself as the Judge of the living and the dead?

as far as i know in the OT God is THE Judge (Judges 11:27):

"I have not wronged you, but you are doing me wrong by waging war against me. Let the LORD, the Judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites."

it seems false to think that God would relinquish His position of Judge to a mere creation. He IS the Judge. He needs no one to Judge but Himself. in essence He IS the Judge anyway, even if Jesus were appointed to be Judge (if Jesus was created as you say) because Judgment comes from God's very nature and Person when dealing with us.

to say that someone besides God is the Judge is to say something that is intrinsically impossible. Judgment comes from God and ultimately leads back to God. to introduce this "middle-man" would be for God to add an unnecessary step concerning His judgment. To say that Jesus Christ is the Judge, is simply to say that God is the Judge, and therefore that Jesus Christ is God (or Divine).

In Revelation 3 Jesus uses the phrase "My God" 5 times. God does not have a God.

this is merely semantics. i haven't really called Jesus "God", because "God" is actually Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so how can the Son be all 3? i've referred to Jesus as Divine.

and once again, you seem to misunderstand Jesus' humanity. He became fully human and emptied Himself and took on the form of a servant as Philippians 2:6-11 says.

the problem with your position is that it is an absolute negation, or an existential proposition (as Dallas Willard calls it). in order for your position to be right, EVERY SINGLE VERSE has to deny Divinity. not just the ones you've presented (although when properly understood in their CORRECT context don't help you anyway).

Jesus claims to be the eternal "I AM", He claims to be the Truth (who is the Truth but God?), He is resisted and threatened with being stoned to death by the Jews for "Claiming to be God". if He even claims, or its demonstrated, that He was Divine, then either He was, or He was the ultimate blasphemer.

i don't see how it's possible to have Him not be Divine considering all He did and said, and all that was said about Him, while denying that He was not a blasphemer. it doesn't make sense to me.

[Aineo]

Since you did not read my whole post then I suggest you do. And then I suggest you pray to God for wisdom to understand His word.

I am a Christian and not affiliated with any denomination since all denominations are doctrine driven. This means they teach doctrines and then find Scripture to back up their doctrine while ignoring all Scriptures that don't.

Your time analogy is a bit foolish since to humans time is linear but to God time is fluid. What we see as tomorrow He sees as past events.

Tell me absolute truth does God have a God? It seems many Christians choose to ignore these:

Romans 15:4-6
Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; 6 that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
NAS

2 Corinthians 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort; 4 who comforts us in all our affliction so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. NAS

2 Corinthians 11:31-33
31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, He who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me, 33 and I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and so escaped his hands.
NAS

Ephesians 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. NAS

Ephesians 1:15-17

15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you, and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. NAS

Ephesians 4:3-8
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,

"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men."
NAS

Colossians 1:3-8

3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; 5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel, 6 which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; 7 just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf, 8 and he also informed us of your love in the Spirit. NAS

1 Peter 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
NAS

Revelation 3:2
2'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.
NAS

Revelation 3:11-12
one take your crown. 12'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
NAS

Also we read:

Romans 16:25-27

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen. NAS

Galatians 3:20
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
NAS


1 Corinthians 8:4-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father[/b], from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. NAS

Ephesians 4:3-8
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all[/b] who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,

"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men."
NAS

1 Timothy 2:4-7
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NAS

Jude 24-25

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
NAS

The Greek word translated “only” is:

NT:3441

monos, monee, monon,

1. an adjective, alone

a. with verbs: Matthew 14:23
b. it is joined with its noun to other verbs also, so that what is predicated may be declared to apply to some one person alone Matthew 4:10
2. Neuter monon as an adverb, alone, only, merely: Matthew 5:47
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

And these:

Acts 3:19-21
19 "Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
NAS

Acts 10:42-43
42 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
NAS

Hebrews 3:1-3
3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. 2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.
NAS

Have you ever heard of Philo of Alexandria? He was a Hellenistic Jew and a philosopher who used the Greek philosophical concept of "logos" to demonstrate Judaism's monotheism.

I. Categorization of Philo's Logos

1) The Logos as Plato's or a Middle Platonic model: It is described as a 'divine model' (PARADEIGMA), 'divine plan,' or 'thought' which is placed in God's mind (YUXH (e.g. Op Mund 24, 25; Plant 18-19; Fug 94-102). The parallel correspondences between Timaeus and Philo are as follows: 'model or plan for God's creation' (NOHTOS ZWN) (Tim 30c-31a) // 'God's ideas or model' (KOSMOS NOHTOS) (e.g. Op Mund 24); 'cosmic soul' (YUXH) (Tim 36-37) // 'God's mind' (YUXH) (Op Mund 18, 20); 'the logos as God's thought' (LOGOS KAI DIANOIA) (Tim 38c) // 'the logos' (Leg All 1:24); and 'the reason as God's plan' (LOGISMOS QEOU) (Tim 34a) // 'the reason as the laws' (LOGISMOS) (Op Mund 24).

2) The Logos as the word of YHWH (and wisdom of God): In the context where Philo goes back to the Bible, it shows the figure of God's utterance in accordance with the Jewish creation account in Genesis (e.g. Sacr 8; Fug 95) and the figure of the word of YHWH (Leg All 3:204; Post 102). The wisdom motif as 'divine thought' may correspond to Philo's Logos as 'divine plan' (cf. Quis Rer 199; Leg All 1:43, 65; Leg All 2:86; Fug 97; Somn 2:241-242); and since Philo's theological model of the divine Logos can involve the notion of 'wisdom' (of the Second Temple Period), Philo does not need to employ the wisdom motif for his theological argument.

3) The Logos as the allegorical application to the mediatorial figures in the biblical context: Philo takes several appropriate texts in the books of Moses, and places the Logos in each context. He is interested in the angelic figure (Leg All 3:177-178; Fug 5-6; Quaest Exod 2:13) or other mediator figures, such as Aaron (Heres 205), 'manna' (Leg All 3:174-178; Det 118; Heres 79, 191), or 'water' (Post 127-129; Somn 2:241-242, 246]). Philo also takes up other texts which sound polytheistic (e.g. the LXX rendering of Gen 31:13 and 9:6) and contends that the divine Logos should be placed beside God instead of other autonomous substances, so that the monotheistic view is not reduced at all (Somn 1:227-230; Quaest Gen 2:62).

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/med_logos.html

In Colossians we read:

Colossians 1:3-15
3 We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; 5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel, 6 which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; 7 just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf, 8 and he also informed us of your love in the Spirit.

9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.NAS

If Jesus is God how can He be the first-born of all creation?

In Hebrews we read:

Hebrews 1:1-4
1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. NAS

Jesus is the Son of God but Jesus is not and never was God. Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of God's nature who God highly exalted that at His name (not His person) every knee in heaven and on earth will bow.

[absolutetruth]

Since you did not read my whole post then I suggest you do. And then I suggest you pray to God for wisdom to understand His word.

i qualified that by saying "i'll look at it though." and "but if what you've just said is the point of that post, then i disagree not at all."

so be patient so i can read your three page post. and deal with the massive amount of verses you presented (also known as "elephant hurling").

And then I suggest you pray to God for wisdom to understand His word.

funny, cuz you haven't responded to my objections. you continue to tell me that i'm wrong, but you don't deal with my arguments that support what i'm saying.

I am a Christian and not affiliated with any denomination since all denominations are doctrine driven. This means they teach doctrines and then find Scripture to back up their doctrine while ignoring all Scriptures that don't.

i could just as easily say the same thing, and accuse you of trying to find scripture to back up what you already presuppose. i interpret scripture with scripture, and read the Word by exegesis, not eisegesis.

the very fact that we have different views from the same passages shows this to be a naiive claim from you. you have your starting points, as i have mine. the question is, are they backed by scripture. and since Jesus clearly says things that no created being could ever say without being blasphemous, then it's not as simple as you're attempting to make it.

Your time analogy is a bit foolish since to humans time is linear but to God time is fluid. What we see as tomorrow He sees as past events.

is it foolish because it's foolish, or is it foolish because you've misunderstood it? definitely the latter. maybe that's my fault.

i'm not talking about how God sees time compared to us. i'm talking about US seeing time as an analogy for God.

please don't misunderstand me again and then proceed to call me or my ideas foolish. get your understanding right before responding.

i'll just deal quickly with some of your points since they mostly are similar:

regarding "Does God have a God": i answered this already. Jesus became obedient to the will of the Father and took on the nature of a servant (Phil 2:6-8 ), and became a little lower than the angels for a time (Hebrews 2:7-9).

regarding the "only one God" passages: i agree that there is a distinction that's made. but how else would we have clear understanding on this? passages like Romans 16:27 would end up a little redundant and confusing if it were to read "to the only wise God, through God, be the glory forever." and indeed, other passages would get even more confusing. Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of (God) and of (God) and of (God)." there must be some distinction for clarification. and the context of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 doesn't help you either. since other "gods" are being contrasted to the one true God, the verse juxtaposes false "gods" with the real God. one side of the verse you have "false gods" and the other side you have God, and Jesus Christ. this demonstrates His Divinity, not the opposite.

regarding the "firstborn" of all creation: i can't believe you're using this. "the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.

firstborn is also a title that is transferable:

Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father’s house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)

Jer. 31:9, "...for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)."

Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created."

here's also an answer from Jonathan Sarfati:

"Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son.

‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.

Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28 ). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).

Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).

This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old."

regarding all the rest of your post, you can keep cutting and pasting all these HUNDREDS of verses and information from a bunch of websites, and keep trying to keep the real arguments and difficulties at bay with this "elephant hurling", but i'm gonna keep going for one point. Jesus made claims that were He not Divine, He blasphemed against God.

why don't you actually talk to me, instead of hiding behind all this cutting an pasting from websites?

Jesus is the Son of God but Jesus is not and never was God. Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of God's nature who God highly exalted that at His name (not His person) every knee in heaven and on earth will bow.

interesting. Jesus claims to be the Saviour of the world (John 3:16-17), and God says in Isaiah 43:11 "I even I am the Lord, and apart from me there is no Savior."

according to this, in order for Jesus to be our Savior, He HAS to be our God.

will you please answer what i have written in the other posts, and respond to my objections and refutations, instead of just posting a million passages and making me go through them and spend countless time refuting them.

like i said, you have made an absolute negation. the verses that you've given (that YOU feel deny Christ's Divinity) aren't enough. you need to have EVERY VERSE IN THE BIBLE deny His Divinity, otherwise someone lied, or He's Divine. and i've shown just a few verses that support that claim. if you want more, i'll be glad to provide them.

[Aineo]

Since you did not read my whole post then I suggest you do. And then I suggest you pray to God for wisdom to understand His word.

i qualified that by saying "i'll look at it though." and "but if what you've just said is the point of that post, then i disagree not at all."

so be patient so i can read your three page post. and deal with the massive amount of verses you presented (also known as "elephant hurling").

First of all since you belittled the one NT Scripture I posted, I decided to give you more than just one verse. Second, I suggest you keep your comments free of sarcasm since sarcasm does not contribute to courteous discussions.

And then I suggest you pray to God for wisdom to understand His word.

funny, cuz you haven't responded to my objections. you continue to tell me that i'm wrong, but you don't deal with my arguments that support what i'm saying.

I have responded to you objections. You brought up John 1 and I pointed you to Philo of Alexander to understand how John used "Logos".

I am a Christian and not affiliated with any denomination since all denominations are doctrine driven. This means they teach doctrines and then find Scripture to back up their doctrine while ignoring all Scriptures that don't.

i could just as easily say the same thing, and accuse you of trying to find scripture to back up what you already presuppose. i interpret scripture with scripture, and read the Word by exegesis, not eisegesis.

Who gave you or anyone the authority to interpret Scripture? Peter warns us about interpreting Scripture.

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. NAS

Now, Jesus fulfilled many OT prophesies that concern a man not God.

the very fact that we have different views from the same passages shows this to be a naiive claim from you. you have your starting points, as i have mine. the question is, are they backed by scripture. and since Jesus clearly says things that no created being could ever say without being blasphemous, then it's not as simple as you're attempting to make it.

You are proving my point. Have you not read this:

John 8:25-26
26 "I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world." NAS

Your time analogy is a bit foolish since to humans time is linear but to God time is fluid. What we see as tomorrow He sees as past events.

is it foolish because it's foolish, or is it foolish because you've misunderstood it? definitely the latter. maybe that's my fault.

i'm not talking about how God sees time compared to us. i'm talking about US seeing time as an analogy for God.

There are many analogies for the Trinity. Water exists in three forms (vapor, ice, and liquid); mankinds has a body, spirit, and soul. The analogies used are many and varied. So I did understand your analogy I simply rejected it.

please don't misunderstand me again and then proceed to call me or my ideas foolish. get your understanding right before responding.

i'll just deal quickly with some of your points since they mostly are similar:

regarding "Does God have a God": i answered this already. Jesus became obedient to the will of the Father and took on the nature of a servant (Phil 2:6-8 ), and became a little lower than the angels for a time (Hebrews 2:7-9).

I will again suggest you refrain from sarcasm. You posted your analogy might seem foolish and all I did was agree.

Now as to your explanation, it might be valid if what I posted was not written after the resurrection. Also when you check out the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah He is called God's servant and annointed King. You will also read the the Messiah's name will be called Immanuel, what you will not read is the Messiah is Immanuel.

regarding the "only one God" passages: i agree that there is a distinction that's made. but how else would we have clear understanding on this? passages like Romans 16:27 would end up a little redundant and confusing if it were to read "to the only wise God, through God, be the glory forever." and indeed, other passages would get even more confusing. Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of (God) and of (God) and of (God)." there must be some distinction for clarification. and the context of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 doesn't help you either. since other "gods" are being contrasted to the one true God, the verse juxtaposes false "gods" with the real God. one side of the verse you have "false gods" and the other side you have God, and Jesus Christ. this demonstrates His Divinity, not the opposite.

Matthew 28:19 is thought to be a spurious addition to Scripture. You might like to check out the manuscript evidence concerning this. However, the baptismal formulae does not prove Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. Also you need to take your own advise concerning thinking before you respond. If and I emphasize the "if" Jesus is God then we should read Jesus is God in plain language in the NT. The fact is we don't. We read that Jesus was appointed heir, is the first-born of creation, is a servant, and a man who is the only mediator between God and man.

regarding the "firstborn" of all creation: i can't believe you're using this. "the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.

firstborn is also a title that is transferable:

Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father’s house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)

Jer. 31:9, "...for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)."

Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created."

However, if you are allowing Scripture to explain Scripture your analysis of first-born denies the context of Colossians 1:15 as well as the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah.

here's also an answer from Jonathan Sarfati:

"Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son.

‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.

Did you read what I posted from Hebrews? If not lets look at it again.

Hebrews 1:1-5
1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,

"Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee"?NAS

God created through the Son. If as you state you let Scripture explain Scripture then you need to take the whole word of God into account not just one of two portions of Scripture that seem to make your case.

Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28 ). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).

Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).

This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old."

Ah, but you want to ignore what the NT says about God being the "monos" God. "Monogenes" is derived from "monos". Also you are ignoring that only Jesus was born of a woman without a human father, which makes Jesus unique since Adam who was created.

regarding all the rest of your post, you can keep cutting and pasting all these HUNDREDS of verses and information from a bunch of websites, and keep trying to keep the real arguments and difficulties at bay with this "elephant hurling", but i'm gonna keep going for one point. Jesus made claims that were He not Divine, He blasphemed against God.

why don't you actually talk to me, instead of hiding behind all this cutting an pasting from websites?

Jesus is the Son of God but Jesus is not and never was God. Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of God's nature who God highly exalted that at His name (not His person) every knee in heaven and on earth will bow.

interesting. Jesus claims to be the Saviour of the world (John 3:16-17), and God says in Isaiah 43:11 "I even I am the Lord, and apart from me there is no Savior."

according to this, in order for Jesus to be our Savior, He HAS to be our God.

will you please answer what i have written in the other posts, and respond to my objections and refutations, instead of just posting a million passages and making me go through them and spend countless time refuting them.

like i said, you have made an absolute negation. the verses that you've given (that YOU feel deny Christ's Divinity) aren't enough. you need to have EVERY VERSE IN THE BIBLE deny His Divinity, otherwise someone lied, or He's Divine. and i've shown just a few verses that support that claim. if you want more, i'll be glad to provide them.

Ah, so giving you information so you can do some real research instead of parroting what you have learned by rote is elephant hurling?

absolutetruth, I have been studying the Bible for 50+ years and accepted the Trinity as Biblical fact until recently when I decided to pray for wisdom and read every word that proceeds from the mouth of God instead of parroting what I have been taught for decades. Now, all you have done is resort to the usual defense for the Trinity that I used. What you have shown me is you are not really interested in questioning a doctrine developed by Greek man who did not have any understanding of the foundation of Christianity. These Greek men who were influenced by Greek pagan philosophy were the first to put forth the concept of 3 Gods in one. This is paganism. Zeus was the father of Hercules (the god of victory and commerce) and was born of a human mother.

Now I suggest you get into the OT and study the Messianic propecies that Jesus fulfilled. One of the OT Scriptures I posted was:

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19'And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. NAS

Commentators interpret this verse to mean a line of prophets, which totally ignores what we read in John:

John 1:19-21

19 And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20 And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." NAS

The priests and the Levites still expected Moses prophecy to be fulfilled. Jesus told the Jews in John 5:

John 5:45-47
45 "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me. 47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" NAS

God is not a prophet like Moses, therefore either Moses is a false prophet or the Trinity is a manmade doctrine that has deceived many for almost 2000 years.

My "elephant hurling" has a purpose and that purpose is to get people to think instead of parroting what they have learned by rote.

Deuteronomy 5:6-10
6'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

7'You shall have no other gods before Me.

8'You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 9'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. NAS

Deuteronomy 6:4-5

4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5 "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. NAS

One does not mean three.

[absolutetruth]

First of all since you belittled the one NT Scripture I posted, I decided to give you more than just one verse. Second, I suggest you keep your comments free of sarcasm since sarcasm does not contribute to courteous discussions.

you don't seem to understand anything that i say. i didn't belittle the NT Scripture. i disagreed with the idea you had behind it. what i said was:

"this is too simplistic as well. you can grab tens of verses that say that Jesus is the Son of God. in normal language those verses would be just as equal to saying that "God has a God" (as you put it) as well. so why just use this verse?"

your idea behind this is that showing a verse that says: "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" means that Jesus has a Father (God) just like us. but i've never heard anyone us that line of reasoning by using the term "Son of God", which is even more abundant than the former. if you're trying to prove that Jesus has a Father, you can just give the several verses that call Jesus the Son, or the "Son of God". i've never seen anyone use this line of reasoning regarding the term "Son of God", so why press it in the verse you gave? that's what i meant by too simplistic.

and sorry for the sarcasm. (the post was rather long though, you have to admit).

I have responded to you objections. You brought up John 1 and I pointed you to Philo of Alexander to understand how John used "Logos".

no you haven't. you've responded to a select few, but not my main points or arguments. i'm gonna make a separate post for the things i've said that i would like you to address, since you don't know what i'm talking about.

and regarding this Philo business: i don't even know what that means. can you please explain that to me so i can understand what is being said. surely you know.

Who gave you or anyone the authority to interpret Scripture? Peter warns us about interpreting Scripture.

it's almost unbelievable how you misunderstand everything i say. have you not heard that before? "Interpret scripture with scripture"? that's the whole idea behind exegesis and hermeneutics. what i really said was, i allow the Bible to interpret the Bible. i draw the information OUT OF the Bible, not INTO the Bible. Exegesis vs. Eisegesis. i already told you that. why do i have to repeat myself?

and if you disagree here, please tell me how you understand scripture. and if that's the word you were looking for, and you feel my statement should have gone something like this: "I understand scripture with scripture" then you're resorting to semantics again. something you continue to do.

Now, Jesus fulfilled many OT prophesies that concern a man not God.

once again: why do i have to continue to repeat myself? those scriptures most certainly DO concern a man. the MAN Christ Jesus. your axioms lead you to say "not God". those scriptures most certainly COULD concern God, were He to take on human form.

You are proving my point. Have you not read this: John 8:25-26

what's your point with this verse?

There are many analogies for the Trinity. Water exists in three forms (vapor, ice, and liquid); mankinds has a body, spirit, and soul. The analogies used are many and varied. So I did understand your analogy I simply rejected it.

simply rejected it? that's the problem. you rejected it summarily without thinking about what i said. the problem with the other analogies, is that they can exist SEPARATELY. with one, you don't HAVE to have the other two. time is different. time is not "time" without the past, present and future. these three aspects of time are distinct, yet absolutely necessary, each one.

once again, you should really think about what you're going to say before responding. i'm getting a little tired of having to repeat myself over and over.

I will again suggest you refrain from sarcasm. You posted your analogy might seem foolish and all I did was agree.

what sarcasm? don't make things up. i'm telling you "please don't misunderstand me again. get your understanding right before responding." i'm tired of having to repeat myself over and over. it's not fair to me. no sarcasm there.

Now as to your explanation, it might be valid if what I posted was not written after the resurrection. Also when you check out the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah He is called God's servant and annointed King. You will also read the the Messiah's name will be called Immanuel, what you will not read is the Messiah is Immanuel.

what? are you serious? the verse i gave you (Phil 2:6-8 ) says that Jesus took on the form of a servant. and the NT also says that Jesus is King: (Luke 23:3) "So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied." and (John 18:36) "Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

the problem i do have however, i'll admit, is the fact that His name is to be Immanuel, but Jesus is never called that. i've heard that before, and it seems stupid to me that He wasn't.

on the other hand, we know it was Him, since He fulfilled all the other prophecies. surely there is no one else. and if one thinks there is, can they provide a better candidate?

Matthew 28:19 is thought to be a spurious addition to Scripture. You might like to check out the manuscript evidence concerning this. However, the baptismal formulae does not prove Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. Also you need to take your own advise concerning thinking before you respond. If and I emphasize the "if" Jesus is God then we should read Jesus is God in plain language in the NT. The fact is we don't. We read that Jesus was appointed heir, is the first-born of creation, is a servant, and a man who is the only mediator between God and man.

to challenge the authenticity or accuracy of the Bible, is to even question the parts you profess to believe.

and why "should" we see the words "Jesus is God in plain language"? what makes you so sure about that? you're simply appealing to what you've already decided on in your mind. something you've accused me of.

However, if you are allowing Scripture to explain Scripture your analysis of first-born denies the context of Colossians 1:15 as well as the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah.

and the Context doesn't demand that rendering as you say. "Preeminence" fits perfectly well in Colossians 1:15. and concerning the "mediator" and "man" and "first-born" and all that, i've already dealt with all that. that's why i don't want you to post so many verses at one time cuz we go over the same stuff over and over again.

God created through the Son. If as you state you let Scripture explain Scripture then you need to take the whole word of God into account not just one of two portions of Scripture that seem to make your case.

actually this applies to you, not me. since you have the absolute negative position, everything must be as you say it is, since anything else would be blasphemy. a verse to the positive affirms my position because Jesus could most certainly be God and Man, but He cannot be man who becomes God.

Ah, but you want to ignore what the NT says about God being the "monos" God. "Monogenes" is derived from "monos". Also you are ignoring that only Jesus was born of a woman without a human father, which makes Jesus unique since Adam who was created.

i believe in the One True Only God. there is a distinction made between Jesus and God in order that we may understand. if Jesus is both God and Man, then He would have a God in His earthly manifestation, which is what these verses adress.

and i agree that Jesus was born without an earthly father. but this no more denies His Divinity than saying that He was a man. after all the NT says that Jesus the Son was GIVEN and the child was BORN. the Son was given because the Son eternally existed, just as the OT and NT confirm:

Isaiah 44:6, "This is what the LORD says -Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 1:17-18, "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."
Obviously, Rev. 1:17-18 can only refer to Jesus.

Revelation 22:12-13, "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Ah, so giving you information so you can do some real research instead of parroting what you have learned by rote is elephant hurling?

straw-man. i never implied that. i'm saying the AMOUNT at one time. you can give me one or a few verses, or one or a few concepts and we can deal with them systematically. you're putting too much at one time and the responses end up being repetative because you don't wait for the answer.

absolutetruth, I have been studying the Bible for 50+ years and accepted the Trinity as Biblical fact until recently when I decided to pray for wisdom and read every word that proceeds from the mouth of God instead of parroting what I have been taught for decades. Now, all you have done is resort to the usual defense for the Trinity that I used. What you have shown me is you are not really interested in questioning a doctrine developed by Greek man who did not have any understanding of the foundation of Christianity. These Greek men who were influenced by Greek pagan philosophy were the first to put forth the concept of 3 Gods in one. This is paganism. Zeus was the father of Hercules (the god of victory and commerce) and was born of a human mother.

really? because Jesus claims to be Divine in the NT. if we're wrong, He mislead us.

Now I suggest you get into the OT and study the Messianic propecies that Jesus fulfilled. One of the OT Scriptures I posted was: Deut 18:15-19. Commentators interpret this verse to mean a line of prophets, which totally ignores what we read in John 1:19-21. The priests and the Levites still expected Moses prophecy to be fulfilled. Jesus told the Jews in John 5:45-47. God is not a prophet like Moses, therefore either Moses is a false prophet or the Trinity is a manmade doctrine that has deceived many for almost 2000 years.

if God takes on human flesh, He most certainly can be a prophet to us, as well as our Priest: Hebrews 3:1.

My "elephant hurling" has a purpose and that purpose is to get people to think instead of parroting what they have learned by rote.

apparently you don't understand the concept of "elephant hurling", because if you did, you would realize that you could make those SAME points without doing it all at once. don't post so much at one time. deal with one concept at a time.

[absolutetruth]

here are some of the things that i've said that i haven't gotten a response for:

what (or who) are you talking about putting this "faith" in? in a creation of God? of course not.

and if Christ be not Divine, then what's wrong with the Jehovah's witness stance or Mormon stance (on this particular issue of course)?

i'm thinking of passages like John 5:22-23:

22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

and Alistair Begg commenting on this verse says, "If it is actually impossible not to honor the Father except in the righteous honor of the Son, then those who claim to honor the Father without honoring the Son, do not honor the Father, therefore they must have spiritual power from somewhere. Where?"

a Christian (by the least of definitions) means one who follows the teachings of Christ, and puts faith in Him for their salvation and atonement of their sins. well one of His teachings is that He is One with the Father (Divine).

now keep in mind we're talking about whether a person can truly be called a Christian, not whether one is going to be saved as one. For as some theologians and philosophers like John Macarthur and C.S. Lewis have pointed out that there are prostitutes and other such people from the lowest modes of life that are actually closer to salvation than some of the highest of the “religious” elite.

and i agree with this (somewhat), which is why i didn't try this line of reasoning. although, we have to admit, it can clearly be demonstrated that Jesus is called Lord in a far different way than Saul or anyone else is in the OT. this is firmly supported by the fact that nobody lived a sinless life except Christ. so the other people who may have been called "Lord" ipso facto become excluded from being called "Lord" in the same sense in which we're talking about. Christ didn't sin, and therefore isn't excluded from being God in human flesh (since this is a charactaristic that we would expect from God should He present Himself humanly).

now of course, that doesn't mean that He actually IS God in human flesh, it just means that He's not excluded like the others are, so He can't be referred to as "Lord" in the same sense they are, that's all.

and even God refers to other "gods" in the OT, but that doesn't mean that He really is saying that there are other actual "gods" existing as He does. we can see from context and proper hermeneutics that He was utilizing language that we could understand.

so attempting to demonstrate that since Jesus is called Lord in the NT; and others are referred to as "Lord" in the OT but they were just men; that therefore calling Jesus Lord in the NT is the same as the examples in the OT is to commit a fallacy in logic. in plain language:

"Just because two things have one thing in common, therefore they have everything in common."

so i would say that your argument doesn't work.

now could a man be a man and be God as well? of course not. but could God, become a man, and still be God? certainly, since God is Spirit (John 4:24).

you can't just grab verses that seem to deny the claim to Divinity without looking at the ones that affirm it. and the negative stance is the more difficult stance since a mere man, a creation, claiming to be One with God would be blasphemy of the highest order. however, there's nothing blasphemous about God coming in human form.

this is completely false, even by your own reasoning. because you've said several times that there's ONE GOD. if Jesus (not being Divine as you persist) was "equal" with God, then that would make Him God. anything other than that means that you need to re-word that statement.

as far as i know in the OT God is THE Judge (Judges 11:27):

"I have not wronged you, but you are doing me wrong by waging war against me. Let the LORD, the Judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites."

it seems false to think that God would relinquish His position of Judge to a mere creation. He IS the Judge. He needs no one to Judge but Himself. in essence He IS the Judge anyway, even if Jesus were appointed to be Judge (if Jesus was created as you say) because Judgment comes from God's very nature and Person when dealing with us.

to say that someone besides God is the Judge is to say something that is intrinsically impossible. Judgment comes from God and ultimately leads back to God. to introduce this "middle-man" would be for God to add an unnecessary step concerning His judgment. To say that Jesus Christ is the Judge, is simply to say that God is the Judge, and therefore that Jesus Christ is God (or Divine).

this is merely semantics. i haven't really called Jesus "God", because "God" is actually Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so how can the Son be all 3? i've referred to Jesus as Divine.

and once again, you seem to misunderstand Jesus' humanity. He became fully human and emptied Himself and took on the form of a servant as Philippians 2:6-11 says.

the problem with your position is that it is an absolute negation, or an existential proposition (as Dallas Willard calls it). in order for your position to be right, EVERY SINGLE VERSE has to deny Divinity. not just the ones you've presented (although when properly understood in their CORRECT context don't help you anyway).

Jesus claims to be the eternal "I AM", He claims to be the Truth (who is the Truth but God?), He is resisted and threatened with being stoned to death by the Jews for "Claiming to be God". if He even claims, or its demonstrated, that He was Divine, then either He was, or He was the ultimate blasphemer.

i don't see how it's possible to have Him not be Divine considering all He did and said, and all that was said about Him, while denying that He was not a blasphemer. it doesn't make sense to me.

regarding the "only one God" passages: i agree that there is a distinction that's made. but how else would we have clear understanding on this? passages like Romans 16:27 would end up a little redundant and confusing if it were to read "to the only wise God, through God, be the glory forever." and indeed, other passages would get even more confusing. Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of (God) and of (God) and of (God)." there must be some distinction for clarification. and the context of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 doesn't help you either. since other "gods" are being contrasted to the one true God, the verse juxtaposes false "gods" with the real God. one side of the verse you have "false gods" and the other side you have God, and Jesus Christ. this demonstrates His Divinity, not the opposite.

interesting. Jesus claims to be the Saviour of the world (John 3:16-17), and God says in Isaiah 43:11 "I even I am the Lord, and apart from me there is no Savior."

according to this, in order for Jesus to be our Savior, He HAS to be our God.

will you please answer what i have written in the other posts, and respond to my objections and refutations, instead of just posting a million passages and making me go through them and spend countless time refuting them.

like i said, you have made an absolute negation. the verses that you've given (that YOU feel deny Christ's Divinity) aren't enough. you need to have EVERY VERSE IN THE BIBLE deny His Divinity, otherwise someone lied, or He's Divine. and i've shown just a few verses that support that claim. if you want more, i'll be glad to provide them.

[Aineo]

Tell me absolutetruth how do you understand this phrase: God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ? I am not using this phrase to show that Jesus is the Son of God. There are a number of Scriptures that state Jesus is the Son of God without you assuming I am interpreting the above phrase to mean Jesus is the Son of God. Now, without trying to disprove what I posted and without trying to defend the Trinity just read the following.

Ephesians 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. NAS

Paul wrote blessed be the God and Father (same person or entity) of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now, if you cannot understand this simple sentence then how can you understand the balance of Scripture. Paul wrote that Jesus has a God.

I will explain about Philo of Alexander one more time. Philo was a Hellenistic Jew and a philosopher who died in 50 A.D. Philo used Plato's concept of "logos" to explain the Judaic theology of monotheism to polytheistic Greeks. I am not going to repost Philo's use of logos you can go back and read it. Now, with Philo's use of logos in mind reread John 1:1-5. John is not telling us Jesus is God or John is confused since we read in John 20:

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" NAS

So now do you think you can answer my question; does God have a God? After all Jesus told Mary He does. Jesus also tells two of the churches in Revelation three that He has a God when He uses the phrase "My God".

I have not misunderstood your posts, after all you used the term interpret.

i could just as easily say the same thing, and accuse you of trying to find scripture to back up what you already presuppose. i interpret scripture with scripture, and read the Word by exegesis, not eisegesis.

Cults interpret scripture with scripture as does the Catholic Church, how else do you think they came up with some of their heretical doctrines?

You get tired of repeating yourself? Well, so do I. It is clear you are simply scanning my posts and not reading what I post with understanding. BTW, water can exist as vapor, liquid, and solid at the same time, while your example of time cannot so the water analogy is a better example of the Trinity than time as is body, soul, and spirit, which coexist as a unit.

Now, Jesus fulfilled many OT prophesies that concern a man not God.

once again: why do i have to continue to repeat myself? those scriptures most certainly DO concern a man. the MAN Christ Jesus. your axioms lead you to say "not God". those scriptures most certainly COULD concern God, were He to take on human form. [/quote][/quote]Really? Then what you are telling me is that Moses was also part of the Trinity since the prophesied prophet is a man like Moses? Lets look at just a couple of those prophesies you say can apply to God.

Genesis 3:15
5 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel. " NAS

I don’t see God’s seed in this do you?

Zechariah 6:12-13
12 "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts," Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. 13 "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."' NAS

Now either God is playing games or Zechariah is a false prophet if the Branch is not only a man but God. Can God be His own priest?

Now lets move to the New Testament.

Romans 5:14-15
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. NAS

The seed of Eve and the Branch who is the man who will be priest on His throne must be a human being and not God or the OT prophesies are false. Through the man Adam sin entered the world and through the man Jesus God redeemed mankind.

Have you read the history of the Trinity? The first Early Church Father to propose Jesus is God was Justin Martyr. One of his proof was a partial quote from Hebrews:

Hebrews 1:8
Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, NAS

Now any Jew who read Hebrews would have known this is part of Psalm 45:

Psalms 45:6-7

6 Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom.
7 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Thy God, has anointed Thee
With the oil of joy above Thy fellows.
NAS

Paul might have had this in mind when he wrote:

Philippians 2:1-11
2:1 If therefore there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NAS

Notice I underlined “in his name”, so lets look at Isaiah

Isaiah 7:14
14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
NAS

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. NAS

There is a vast difference between “His name will be called” and “He will be”.

what? are you serious? the verse i gave you (Phil 2:6-8 ) says that Jesus took on the form of a servant. and the NT also says that Jesus is King: (Luke 23:3) "So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied." and (John 18:36) "Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

I am dead serious. Since you let the Bible interpret or explain the Bible then why assume those verses mean Jesus is God? First in regard to Philippians 2:6-8, Jesus was not a servant so he took on the form of a servant and fulfilled these prophecies: Isaiah 42:1-3. 49:1-6, 52:13-15, and 53:11.

As to Luke 23:3 and John 18:36 read Psalm 2:

Psalms 2:1-7
Why are the nations in an uproar,
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand,
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His
Anointed:
3 "Let us tear their fetters apart,
And cast away their cords from us!"

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury:
6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee.
NAS

BTW, this reminds me to ask you something. In the OT when you see the word LORD in all caps do you know what the Hebrew word is? It is YHWH, or Yehova (Jehovah). The only Bible that translates YHWH as Jehovah is the American Standard Bible, well other than the JW’s New World Translation.

Matthew 28:19 is thought to be a spurious addition to Scripture. You might like to check out the manuscript evidence concerning this. However, the baptismal formulae does not prove Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. Also you need to take your own advise concerning thinking before you respond. If and I emphasize the "if" Jesus is God then we should read Jesus is God in plain language in the NT. The fact is we don't. We read that Jesus was appointed heir, is the first-born of creation, is a servant, and a man who is the only mediator between God and man.

to challenge the authenticity or accuracy of the Bible, is to even question the parts you profess to believe.

You need to get into the real world. We know that 1 John 5:7 as found in the KJV is a spurious inclusion made by Erasmus when he compiled his Greek NT. There are other passages that do not appear in the oldest manuscripts such as the ending of Mark's Gospel. Now as to Matthew 28:19:

A Collection of the evidence for and against the traditional wording of the baptismal phrase in Matthew 28:19

and why "should" we see the words "Jesus is God in plain language"? what makes you so sure about that? you're simply appealing to what you've already decided on in your mind. something you've accused me of.

Did you read my last post? I already posted that I accepted the Trinity until recently and changed my view based on God’s word. On the other hand all you have done is ignore and/or failed to respond with anything of substance concerning the OT prophecies. What does the Bible tell us about whom Jesus is? Peter calls Jesus a servant; Paul calls Him a man; and Hebrews calls Him our High Priest; John, Peter, Paul, and Luke call Him the Son of God; and Peter, Paul, and Jude tells us Jesus is our Savior; but none of them refer to Jesus as God. Jude wrote:

Jude 24-25

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. NAS

As to the balance of your post I am not going to waste my time responding. I already explained why Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. What you are refusing to accept is the significance of the OT prophecies where we are told God appointed and/or anointed the Messiah as King, and etc.

I will end this with the Lord’s own words:

Matthew 4:4
"It is written, 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'" NAS

The only way you or any Trinitarian can support this doctrine is to ignore the vast majority of the words that proceed from the mouth of God. God appointed His only begotten Son to be servant, King, Lord, the Alpha and the Omega, and our Savior. A man caused the fall of mankind and the only perfect man to walk this earth is the Lamb of God and the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins. A man caused our fall and a man was used of God to redeem mankind.

[absolutetruth]

so what do you think of those who consider Christ to be Divine? do you consider us to be blasphemous, or merely wrong?

what about the salvation of those who hold that Christ is Divine, or One with the Father as stated in (John 10:30)? where do you stand on that?

and what do you think of the Holy Spirit? what is that according to you? where did it or He come from?

[absolutetruth]

so once again, how do you understand scripture? how do you gain the information from the Bible? what is the process that you use that's different from what i use?

[Aineo]

so once again, how do you understand scripture? how do you gain the information from the Bible? what is the process that you use that's different from what i use?

I take the Bible at face value and do not try to intepret words to develop doctrine. As you posted the Bible explains the Bible.

Now read Colossians 1:15, Hebrews 1:1-5 with Psalms 2 and we understand the first created being or spirit was the Spirit of the Son whom God used to create all that exists. By understanding this we can understand the "let Us" of Genesis 1:26 refers to God and the Son.

God is Spirit so the Holy Spirit is God.

Luke 11:13
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" NAS

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. NAS

[absolutetruth]

Tell me absolutetruth how do you understand this phrase: God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ? I am not using this phrase to show that Jesus is the Son of God. There are a number of Scriptures that state Jesus is the Son of God without you assuming I am interpreting the above phrase to mean Jesus is the Son of God. Now, without trying to disprove what I posted and without trying to defend the Trinity just read the following.

couple of problems here. first, you're asking me to try and understand a verse OUT OF CONTEXT (without taking all of scripture into consideration). secondly you are asking me to understand this passage without trying to defend the Trinity (something which would demand that i disregard the whole Bible since i believe that the Bible supports the Trinity). thirdly, let me ask you this, how do you interpret THIS verse (if that's the kind of question you want to ask): John 10:30: "I and the Father are One" without trying to support your Unitarian view? or John 10:33, or Revelations 1:17-18? and you're telling ME to get serious?

Paul wrote blessed be the God and Father (same person or entity) of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now, if you cannot understand this simple sentence then how can you understand the balance of Scripture. Paul wrote that Jesus has a God.

I will explain about Philo of Alexander one more time. Philo was a Hellenistic Jew and a philosopher who died in 50 A.D. Philo used Plato's concept of "logos" to explain the Judaic theology of monotheism to polytheistic Greeks. I am not going to repost Philo's use of logos you can go back and read it. Now, with Philo's use of logos in mind reread John 1:1-5. John is not telling us Jesus is God or John is confused since we read in John 20:

alright. so according to this, John is saying that the Word is really "God's Divine Plan"? so where it says "And the Word was God", it should really say "And God's Divine Plan was God"? hmmm. that sounds really strange. how can God be His own "Divine Plan"?

sounds like that would entail either raising God's plan to His status of God, or lowering God to the lesser status of His Divine Plan. that sounds really problematic. you think that makes sense of this issue? sounds like it makes it more complicated.

So now do you think you can answer my question; does God have a God? After all Jesus told Mary He does. Jesus also tells two of the churches in Revelation three that He has a God when He uses the phrase "My God".

i keep telling you, that He lowered Himself, and became obedient to God's purpose ("Divine Plan"). for all practical purposes, and as far as we were concerned, Jesus DID have a God while on earth.

enough of that. try a different path. i agree that Jesus was FULLY human, which means that while on earth He had a God.

Cults interpret scripture with scripture as does the Catholic Church, how else do you think they came up with some of their heretical doctrines?

i'm VERY interested in understanding how you interpret/understand scripture. when we say, "scripture by scripture" we're essentially saying that we don't interpret it, but we let God's Word speak to us and reveal its truths. using the word "interpret" isn't the point here. if you're more comfortable with the phrase "we understand scripture by scripture" i'm afraid you're nitpicking a bit much. but, please tell me how you understand the Bible.

You get tired of repeating yourself? Well, so do I. It is clear you are simply scanning my posts and not reading what I post with understanding.

man. here we go again. and i actually read all of your posts.

BTW, water can exist as vapor, liquid, and solid at the same time, while your example of time cannot so the water analogy is a better example of the Trinity than time as is body, soul, and spirit, which coexist as a unit.

it's almost as if you're purposely trying to misunderstand me. "water can exist as vapor, liquid, and solid at the same time" is not the point. if that WERE the point then dimensions would also work (H/W/D), or the roles of a person (father, husband, son), or even the numbers 1,2 and 3, since they could all coexist at the same time as well.

the problem with these things is that they don't all NEED to exist at the same time. one doesn't HAVE to have height in order to have depth, or HAVE to have vapor in order to have liquid, or HAVE to be a father in order to be a son, or HAVE to have 3 in order to have 1, or HAVE to have a body in order to have a spirit. that's why these other analogies don't work. in order to have the full essence of time, the three aspects of Past, Present, and Future are absolutely essential. you can't have one without the other two.

get it now?

Really? Then what you are telling me is that Moses was also part of the Trinity since the prophesied prophet is a man like Moses? Lets look at just a couple of those prophesies you say can apply to God.

you know, you're an intelligent individual, and i admit that you've made some VERY GOOD points in what you're trying to show me, but sometimes you make statements that i can't believe you'd make. this is one of them.

let me ask you something: Did Moses sin? if you're answer to that question is "yes" then you've just answered your own question about whether Moses could be part of the HOLY Trinity. i already answered this when we dealt with how people were called "lord" in the OT vs. how Jesus is called "Lord" in the NT because of how you were trying to attenuate how Jesus was called Lord, but this is one of those things that you chose to ignore. if you would have read it, you wouldn't have made this mistake again. let me post it again for you:

and i agree with this (somewhat), which is why i didn't try this line of reasoning. although, we have to admit, it can clearly be demonstrated that Jesus is called Lord in a far different way than Saul or anyone else is in the OT. this is firmly supported by the fact that nobody lived a sinless life except Christ. so the other people who may have been called "Lord" ipso facto become excluded from being called "Lord" in the same sense in which we're talking about. Christ didn't sin, and therefore isn't excluded from being God in human flesh (since this is a charactaristic that we would expect from God should He present Himself humanly).

now of course, that doesn't mean that He actually IS God in human flesh, it just means that He's not excluded like the others are, so He can't be referred to as "Lord" in the same sense they are, that's all.

and even God refers to other "gods" in the OT, but that doesn't mean that He really is saying that there are other actual "gods" existing as He does. we can see from context and proper hermeneutics that He was utilizing language that we could understand.

so attempting to demonstrate that since Jesus is called Lord in the NT; and others are referred to as "Lord" in the OT but they were just men; that therefore calling Jesus Lord in the NT is the same as the examples in the OT is to commit a fallacy in logic. in plain language:

"Just because two things have one thing in common, therefore they have everything in common."

so i would say that your argument doesn't work.

I don’t see God’s seed in this do you?

no, but i also don't see any mentions of particular animals like dinosaurs in the first chapter of Genesis either. does that mean that dinosaurs weren't created during creation week? we can go to the rest of the Bible to conclude that they were. your inference doesn't work. absence of information here does not mean what you're implying it does.

and once again, you're asking me to interpret a verse in a vacuum, without taking the whole of the Bible into context.

Now either God is playing games or Zechariah is a false prophet if the Branch is not only a man but God. Can God be His own priest?

straw-man again. i'm not implying that Jesus is "God", but Divine, One with the Father and Holy Spirit. so could the Divine Jesus fill this role here, and become a man, and be called a Priest (which He is in Hebrews)?

and you make an interesting comment here. you asked "Can God be His own Priest?" you're saying that this "Man" that's being talked about will be the "Priest of God" according to this verse? so if that's how you're interpreting this verse then if this "Man" is a created-being, would God appoint a created-being as priest over Himself?

if this verse says what you're implying, then you have a more difficult time than i do. according to this verse, while you're saying that my beliefs make God priest over Himself, your views make a created-being priest over God. and you're challenging me?

The seed of Eve and the Branch who is the man who will be priest on His throne must be a human being and not God or the OT prophesies are false. Through the man Adam sin entered the world and through the man Jesus God redeemed mankind.

yes. once again, Jesus was FULLY human, which is why He was able to take our sins, by being made just as we are. i don't disagree with what you've said here.

Have you read the history of the Trinity? The first Early Church Father to propose Jesus is God was Justin Martyr.

hmm. interesting. i thought it was Jesus that did that. John 8:58-59: "58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds." and John 10:30-33: "30I and the Father are one."

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

the Jews understood what He was saying. He was saying that He was God. they picked up stones to stone Him, because had he been a mere creation, they realized that He was blaspheming against God.

There is a vast difference between “His name will be called” and “He will be”.

then who is Isaiah 9:6-7 talking about then?

I am dead serious. Since you let the Bible interpret or explain the Bible then why assume those verses mean Jesus is God? First in regard to Philippians 2:6-8, Jesus was not a servant so he took on the form of a servant and fulfilled these prophecies: Isaiah 42:1-3. 49:1-6, 52:13-15, and 53:11.

look more carefully at verse 6 of Philippians 2. this isn't talking just about a servant but one who's very nature is God, and equal with God.

You need to get into the real world. We know that 1 John 5:7 as found in the KJV is a spurious inclusion made by Erasmus when he compiled his Greek NT. There are other passages that do not appear in the oldest manuscripts such as the ending of Mark's Gospel. Now as to Matthew 28:19:

A Collection of the evidence for and against the traditional wording of the baptismal phrase in Matthew 28:19

fine. forget this verse. thanks for the info.

Did you read my last post? I already posted that I accepted the Trinity until recently and changed my view based on God’s word. On the other hand all you have done is ignore and/or failed to respond with anything of substance concerning the OT prophecies. What does the Bible tell us about whom Jesus is? Peter calls Jesus a servant; Paul calls Him a man; and Hebrews calls Him our High Priest; John, Peter, Paul, and Luke call Him the Son of God; and Peter, Paul, and Jude tells us Jesus is our Savior; but none of them refer to Jesus as God.

just because you were once Trinitarian, but are no longer, does not at all mean that you've come to the Truth. you may just as well have gone away from the Truth.

and Jesus was all these things. don't they also call Jesus Lord? what does that mean? isn't God the only one that can be called Lord in that sense that they are using?

As to the balance of your post I am not going to waste my time responding. I already explained why Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. What you are refusing to accept is the significance of the OT prophecies where we are told God appointed and/or anointed the Messiah as King, and etc.

yeah, well Jesus calls Himself, the Alpha and the Omega. the Beginning and the End. who can have that title but God? and no you haven't "explained" the reason that Jesus can truly be called the Alpha and the Omega.

and He WAS appointed Messiah and King. you're right. that doesn't mean that He can't be Divine.

The only way you or any Trinitarian can support this doctrine is to ignore the vast majority of the words that proceed from the mouth of God. God appointed His only begotten Son to be servant, King, Lord, the Alpha and the Omega, and our Savior.

just sitting here and casually calling Him by those names doesn't lessen the force that those Titles actually have. no one can be called those things without being Divine or someone blaspheming.

A man caused the fall of mankind and the only perfect man to walk this earth is the Lamb of God and the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins. A man caused our fall and a man was used of God to redeem mankind.

exactly. the Man Christ Jesus.

let me ask you something: why didn't God just create the first man like Jesus in the first place? perfect and powerful enough to resist the temptation of this world and the devil? then He could have avoided all this and still have had the same outcome of a perfect world and people that could fellowship with Him.

i have another question: isn't God love? who was He loving before He created man? or who was He talking to or having a relationship with before He created man?

thanks.

[absolutetruth]

so once again, how do you understand scripture? how do you gain the information from the Bible? what is the process that you use that's different from what i use?

I take the Bible at face value and do not try to intepret words to develop doctrine. As you posted the Bible explains the Bible.

Now read Colossians 1:15, Hebrews 1:1-5 with Psalms 2 and we understand the first created being or spirit was the Spirit of the Son whom God used to create all that exists. By understanding this we can understand the "let Us" of Genesis 1:26 refers to God and the Son.

God is Spirit so the Holy Spirit is God.

Luke 11:13
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" NAS

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. NAS

so "Holy Spirit" is just another name for God?

1 John 3:24 says that Jesus gave us the Spirit (Holy Spirit). how can Jesus send or give God to us?

and 1 John 4:12-13 says that God gave us of the Spirit.

so who gave the Spirit? Jesus, or God?

[Aineo]

In Isaiah 1:18 God invites us to reason with Him. In order to reason we must use our minds and intellect.

John 15:26-27

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
KJV

John 16:13

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
KJV

Acts 2:18-21

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

1 Corinthians 2:11
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. NAS

God is spirit and God promised to pour out His Spirit on mankind. Now unless you believe a spirit has a spirit how can you believe that the sprit that proceeds from the Father is not the Father Himself?

[absolutetruth]

God is spirit and God promised to pour out His Spirit on mankind. Now unless you believe a spirit has a spirit how can you believe that the sprit that proceeds from the Father is not the Father Himself?

the same way i understand how the Father sent His Son. you believe in Jesus the Son of God. that phrase entails as well that a spirit (God) has a spirit (Jesus).

a Spirit can no more have a Son (spirit), than He can have a Spirit (spirit).

your charge against me is indistinguishable from the same charge that can be leveled against you.

good answer with the Holy Spirit question i asked you though. thanks.

[Aineo]

God is spirit and God promised to pour out His Spirit on mankind. Now unless you believe a spirit has a spirit how can you believe that the sprit that proceeds from the Father is not the Father Himself?

the same way i understand how the Father sent His Son. you believe in Jesus the Son of God. that phrase entails as well that a spirit (God) has a spirit (Jesus).

Interesting theory but it falls apart when you take these into consideration:

Numbers 16:22-24

22 But they fell on their faces, and said, "O God, Thou God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, wilt Thou be angry with the entire congregation?" 23 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 24 "Speak to the congregation, saying, 'Get back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.'" NAS

Numbers 27:15-17

15 Then Moses spoke to the LORD, saying, 16 "May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation, 17 who will go out and come in before them, and who will lead them out and bring them in, that the congregation of the LORD may not be like sheep which have no shepherd. " NAS

Ecclesiastes 12:6-8
6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. 8 "Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "all is vanity!" NAS

Every spirit of every human being is from God.

a Spirit can no more have a Son (spirit), than He can have a Spirit (spirit).

your charge against me is indistinguishable from the same charge that can be leveled against you.

good answer with the Holy Spirit question i asked you though. thanks.

So what you are telling me is that God is limited because God is spirit?

You see absolutetruth, when people read the Bible with a preconceived purpose they interpret what they read to support what they believe. Greeks starting with the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D defined the Trinity, which was modified by the Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D. and again modified by the Council of Toledo in 675 A.D. (I believe).

Here is part of one of your prior posts:

interesting. Jesus claims to be the Saviour of the world (John 3:16-17), and God says in Isaiah 43:11 "I even I am the Lord, and apart from me there is no Savior."

according to this, in order for Jesus to be our Savior, He HAS to be our God.

will you please answer what i have written in the other posts, and respond to my objections and refutations, instead of just posting a million passages and making me go through them and spend countless time refuting them.

like i said, you have made an absolute negation. the verses that you've given (that YOU feel deny Christ's Divinity) aren't enough. you need to have EVERY VERSE IN THE BIBLE deny His Divinity, otherwise someone lied, or He's Divine. and i've shown just a few verses that support that claim. if you want more, i'll be glad to provide them.

Your assuming since God is our Savior and Jesus is our Savior then Jesus has to be God, which totally ignores these among others:

Acts 5:31-32
31 "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
NAS

Acts 13:23-24
23 "From the offspring of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, 24 after John had proclaimed before His coming a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
NAS

Jude 24-25

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. NAS

When the NT quotes the OT we need to read the OT verses in the OT to get the correct understanding of what is being quoted. For instance:

Matthew 22:43-44
43 He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying,

44'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at My right hand,
Until I put Thine enemies beneath Thy feet"'?
NAS

Now lets look at the OT, since the Pharisees would have immediately understood what Jesus was quoting:

Psalms 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet."
NAS

LORD is the Hebrew YHWH not ‘adown. So the Pharisees would have understood Jesus as meaning Yehova said to my Lord (‘adown).

Now, by taking only those verses that have been used to establish the Trinity and ignoring all the other verses that show the Trinity is not a valid doctrine is (in my mind) interpreting Scripture to support a belief established by gentiles who did not understand the Hebraic foundations of Christianity.

[absolutetruth]

man. i didn't think i was that hard to understand. maybe i've been unclear in what i was saying.

Aineo wrote:

Interesting theory but it falls apart when you take these into consideration:

i'm not saying that since there are spirits or souls, that simply the fact of their existence demonstrates that they are One with God, or are God.

i'm saying that since you're telling me that the Holy Spirit whom God sent, is God Himself according to you, then why does that not apply to the Son whom He sent as well? the only difference here (linguistically) seems to be the word "Spirit". since you believe the "Spirit" to be God since He sent Him, then why is not the Son God as well, since He sent Him?

Every spirit of every human being is from God.

i agree. i wasn't saying anything contrary.

Every spirit of every human being is from God.

well you said:

God is spirit and God promised to pour out His Spirit on mankind. Now unless you believe a spirit has a spirit how can you believe that the sprit that proceeds from the Father is not the Father Himself?

now, since you stated it that way, i ask YOU, since God promised to give us His son, how do you know that the Son is not "God/Divine" also?

and it wasn't me who was limiting God because He's "Spirit", you were clearly denying the idea of a spirit having a spirit. so if God sent His Son, like He sent His Spirit, and you believe that the Spirit is God, then what is it that excludes the Son from being God as well (linguistically in this context)?

You see absolutetruth, when people read the Bible with a preconceived purpose they interpret what they read to support what they believe. Greeks starting with the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D defined the Trinity, which was modified by the Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D. and again modified by the Council of Toledo in 675 A.D. (I believe).

fine. let's assume that this is completely true (although you have your own axioms that you start with as well), it doesn't mean that we're wrong. being an apologist, you should know better. being biased doesn't mean that one's automatically wrong. what matters is what's actually right, and what the Bible supports.

now, the Council of Nicea no more created the existence of the Trinity than Moses created the existence of YHWH Himself. it may have excogitated upon it and politicized it to an extent, but the NT itself was the reason for the idea in the first place. Jesus Himself claimed Divinity:

John 10:30;33

John 14:10

Mark 10:18 (If God alone is good, and Jesus is good, then the statement is clear).

John 8:58 (Here He's claiming to be the eternal "I AM") and then verse 59 shows that they tried to stone Him because they understood what He was saying.

also:

He is the Creator (Colossians 1:16–17).

He has the ability to forgive sins (Luke 7:47–50) and judge all people (John 5:27).

He sends forth the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).

He accepts worship (Hebrews 1:6, Matthew 14:33)

He is called ‘Lord’ (Romans 10:9) where ‘Lord’ (kurios) is a translation of the Old Testament Yahweh (= God) (Romans 10:13 cites Joel 2:32 which makes this clear)

And He is identified with the ‘Alpha and Omega’ and the equivalent ‘the first and the last’ (Revelation 1:8, 17–18, cf. Isaiah 44:6).

In the Old Testament, He is the Child who is called ‘Mighty God’ and ‘Everlasting Father’ (Hebrew is literally ‘Father of Eternity’, meaning ‘Author of Eternity’) (Isaiah 9:6, cf. 10:21) He would be born in Bethlehem, yet His ‘goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ (Micah 5:2)

and several others that i just don't have time to post right now.

i'm only following what Jesus has told us, i'm not simply following some doctrine of the Council of Nicea. if we're wrong, Jesus led us astray.

Your assuming since God is our Savior and Jesus is our Savior then Jesus has to be God

well, "apart from Me there is no Savior", sounds pretty clear to me.

the verses you gave don't disprove what i'm saying. the only way you can reject Jesus as Divine is to reject the words that He said in the NT (some of which i just posted).

LORD is the Hebrew YHWH not ‘adown. So the Pharisees would have understood Jesus as meaning Yehova said to my Lord (‘adown).

Now, by taking only those verses that have been used to establish the Trinity and ignoring all the other verses that show the Trinity is not a valid doctrine is (in my mind) interpreting Scripture to support a belief established by gentiles who did not understand the Hebraic foundations of Christianity.

like i said, you've taken the stance of an absolute negation. which means that every verse has to support what you say. if there's one verse that contradicts you, then your stance is untennable because a man claiming to be Divine (as Jesus does) is blasphemy.

but the Divine Jesus taking on human form and being made in the likeness of a man, is not blasphemy, but the mercy and love of God for us sinners.

your position can never be sustained. and you still haven't answered or responded (critically or generously) to many of the things i've said to you. you've led me to believe that you can't answer them.

however different our views are, i really thank you and i appreciate talking to you. you challenged me in ways i've never seen before and presented a fantastic case. you made me dig and understand what i profess to believe more than possibly anyone else has. i thank you for that. you also forced me to understand and study what i believe and have given me firmer conviction in my heart that Jesus is exactly who He claimed to be. (and i'm honestly not trying to be patronizing, in case it sounds that way).

[Aineo]

How do I know that the Son is not God and divine? The Bible tells me the Son is the first-born of all creation, the Servant of God who appointed His Son Judge, Lord, King, Savior, and heir over His creation. The Bible also tells me that we are to honor the Son and that we are saved through grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The only way you can establish Jesus is divine is to pull a couple of OT Scriptures out of context and then interpret some NT Scriptures to back you up. However, when we take every word that proceeds from the mouth of God into consideration any doctrine of the divinity of Jesus falls apart. Either that or the Bible is a mass of contradictions and it cannot be trusted.

Jesus said there is only one true God, and since God is omniscient and Jesus admits He is not (John 5:19f) to insist Jesus is God contradicts what Jesus taught.

[absolutetruth]

How do I know that the Son is not God and divine? The Bible tells me the Son is the first-born of all creation,

we already delt with this verse. what about when David was called the "first-born" in Psalm 89? are you saying that David was the "first-born"? and indeed how could someone who is the "First and the Last" (Rev 1:8;17-18 ) ever be the "first-born" in the sense that you're saying?

you, who bring up so many verses to back everything up, conspicuously leave out certain ones that challenge your position. and then you don't address them when i refer to them.

the Servant of God who appointed His Son Judge, Lord, King, Savior, and heir over His creation.

indeed.

The Bible also tells me that we are to honor the Son and that we are saved through grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

the verse actually says that we are to honor the Son just as we honor the Father. and conversely, those who don't honor the Son as they Honor the Father, don't honor the Father.

and it's actually saved BY grace, THROUGH faith.

The only way you can establish Jesus is divine is to pull a couple of OT Scriptures out of context and then interpret some NT Scriptures to back you up.

actually, most of my argument comes from the NT, indeed, Jesus Himself.

However, when we take every word that proceeds from the mouth of God into consideration any doctrine of the divinity of Jesus falls apart.

not really, and you haven't given any reason for anyone to believe anything other than the Divinity of Jesus.

Either that or the Bible is a mass of contradictions and it cannot be trusted.

i'll say this one last time, it's perfectly legitimate for Jesus being Divine to become man, but it's not possible for a creation to claim to be Divine (as Jesus does claim) and not be blaspheming. so understood CORRECTLY, the Bible makes perfect sense and Jesus' Divinity remains intact.

Jesus said there is only one true God, and since God is omniscient and Jesus admits He is not (John 5:19f) to insist Jesus is God contradicts what Jesus taught.

He was right. there is only ONE TRUE GOD. and Jesus made in the likeness of man was made a little lower than God and humbled Himself. His lack of knowledge doesn't undermine His Divinity, but demonstrates His humanity. as God, He wouldn't get tired; as a man He did. as God, He wouldn't get hungry; as a man He did.

you've still given no reason to believe what you say, leave alone the fact that you haven't addressed the verses i've given and the objections i've raised. thanks.

[Aineo]

Lets look at Psalm 89 where David's uses the word first-born:

Psalms 89:24-27
24 "And My faithfulness and My lovingkindness will be with him,
And in My name his horn will be exalted.
25 "I shall also set his hand on the sea,
And his right hand on the rivers.
26 "He will cry to Me, 'Thou art my Father,
My God, and the rock of my salvation.'
27 "I also shall make him My first-born,
The highest of the kings of the earth.
NAS

This cannot apply to David since David was never the highest of the kings of the earth. This is a Messianic prophecy.

you, who bring up so many verses to back everything up, conspicuously leave out certain ones that challenge your position. and then you don't address them when i refer to them.

What is conspicuous concerning what you have posted is your refusal to address the Messianic prophecies. I have addressed all your so-called proofs that Jesus is divine and shown how men have interpreted Scripture, wrangled over words, and pulled verses out of context.

the verse actually says that we are to honor the Son just as we honor the Father. and conversely, those who don't honor the Son as they Honor the Father, don't honor the Father.

and it's actually saved BY grace, THROUGH faith.

Honoring the Son as we honor the Father does not mean the Son is God. Fine, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, but where do find we are saved by grace through faith in the Trinity or that Jesus is God?

He was right. there is only ONE TRUE GOD. and Jesus made in the likeness of man was made a little lower than God and humbled Himself. His lack of knowledge doesn't undermine His Divinity, but demonstrates His humanity. as God, He wouldn't get tired; as a man He did. as God, He wouldn't get hungry; as a man He did.

So by your own words Jesus cannot be God in the flesh since Jesus hungered, thirsted, got tired, and I will add died.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
NAS

All mankind exists in the form and likeness of God since God made man in His image. So your analysis of Philippians leaves a lot to be desired. Jesus was born a freeman and He emptied Himself of the perogatives of a freeman and humbled Himself as a Servant (shall I repost all the Messianic prophesies concerning God's anointed servant?), there God highly exalted Him so that at His name, not the person every knee will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God not the glory of Jesus. However, since the spirit of the Son was the first spirit God created we can understand the above to mean that the Son (who was originally spirit) became a man (John 1:1f), but again this does not prove or even indicate Jesus is God.

What Scriptures have I ignored, and why do you object at my posting God's word to show you why I believe what I believe? Jesus tells us the God's word is truth, so why avoid God's truth?

[John 10:10]

It is certainly true that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation:

Ro 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Col 1:18
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Rev 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--

As is clearly shown in these verses, firstborn refers not to the birth of Jesus, but to His resurrection from the dead.

This is also clearly shown in Acts 13:32-33,

"And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, `YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'

I'm very sorry some cannot accept the truth of the deity of Jesus as is declared in John 10,

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 "I and the Father are one."

The gift of eternal life can only be given by Someone who is God. When Jesus declares "My Father ..... is greater than all," Jesus is talking about position in the Godhead, not that He is not God.

The Jews of Jesus' day certainly knew what Jesus had just said.

31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

It is the eternal Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ, who writes one's name in the Lamb's book of life (Rev. 21:27). If the Jesus one believes in is not this eternal Jesus, then I have serious doubts whether the Jesus they believe in has given them the gift of eternal life according to John 10:27-28.

[Aineo]

What is even more unfortunate is the men promote a doctrine developed by men that cannot be supported when the whole word of God is taken into account.

Jesus gives eternal life to those who follow Him because the Father gives them to Him as Jesus explained in the Scripture you quoted. Taken in context your proof text disproves your thesis.

Reread those Scriptures you posted that state the Son is the first-born of creation and then tell me that the Son was not the first created spirit. God was not born, He existed before the Son was born spiritually or physically.

[absolutetruth]

This cannot apply to David since David was never the highest of the kings of the earth. This is a Messianic prophecy.

oh my goodness, gracious. i cannot believe that you said that. you, who has been studying the Bible for 50+ years. you deliberately left out the verse that says it's David that's being talked about. that's what i said before. you use those verses that help you, but ignore those that don't. and this verse is VERY conspicuous by its absence. here's a couple lines before the verse you started at. Psalm 89:20-27:

20 I have found David my servant;
with my sacred oil I have anointed him.

21 My hand will sustain him;
surely my arm will strengthen him.

22 No enemy will subject him to tribute;
no wicked man will oppress him.

23 I will crush his foes before him
and strike down his adversaries.

24 My faithful love will be with him,
and through my name his horn [d] will be exalted.

25 I will set his hand over the sea,
his right hand over the rivers.

26 He will call out to me, 'You are my Father,
my God, the Rock my Savior.'

27 I will also appoint him my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.

notice the first line, verse 20: "I have found David my servant". and then the rest goes on and applies to David.

What is conspicuous concerning what you have posted is your refusal to address the Messianic prophecies.

what about them? you keep posting them, saying that they're talking about a man, and i agree. how's that a refusal to address them?

I have addressed all your so-called proofs that Jesus is divine and shown how men have interpreted Scripture, wrangled over words, and pulled verses out of context.

you've actually done none of that. and i'm not talking about men, or wrangled words, or what doctrines people have allegedly created. i'm talking about those things that Jesus said Himself:

Mark 2:28 Jesus claims to be Lord of the Sabbath. who is Lord of the sabbath but God Himself (Exodus 20:10)?

Mark 2:1-12 Jesus claims authority to forgive sins and performs a miraculous cure to prove it. The scribes are angered because they believe that only God has the authority to forgive sins. These claims are quite extraordinary for someone who is "humble in heart." (Matt 11:29)

John 8:58-59 The full meaning of His statement in John 8:58 is best understood in connection with Exodus 3:14. In Exodus God reveals His name to Moses (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:24 & 58, Jesus is referring to Himself with God's name. The scribes understand Him as such and respond by throwing rocks at Him. They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy - referring to Himself as God (John 5:18 ).

John 10:30-33 Jesus tells the Jews that He is One with the Father. they pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy of claiming to be God. they clearly understood the implications of what He was saying.

Revelations 1:7-8 Jesus is seen as the one who was "pierced" and claims that He is the "Alpha and Omega". surely He is claiming Divinity there. John calls Him "Lord God", and Jesus claims to be "The Almighty".

Revelations 1:17-18 Jesus says again that He is the "First and the Last". and clearly this is Jesus speaking here for He says He was dead, but is alive.

John 5:17 Jesus says that He works on the Sabbath just like the Father works. meaning that He isn't under the law of the sabbath since it was made for men (Mark 2:27). clearly demonstrating His Divinity. which is why the Jews sought to kill Him because He broke the law of the sabbath and made Himself equal with God (John 5:18 ).

Honoring the Son as we honor the Father does not mean the Son is God.

no? well, the Father is honored with worship and praise and communication of prayer. apply those things to Jesus and we are idoloters (taking the praise and worship that belongs to God and giving it to someone or something else) be He not God. you've merely said words not reality.

Fine, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, but where do find we are saved by grace through faith in the Trinity or that Jesus is God?

you won't find those things in the Bible because the word "Trinity" wasn't used when the Canon was being closed and came into use after the 1st or 2nd century. and i gave you several instances where Jesus is shown to be or claims to be Divine. i just posted them for you.

So by your own words Jesus cannot be God in the flesh since Jesus hungered, thirsted, got tired, and I will add died.

not at all. God is spirit (John 4:24). think of it as addition. He added to His Divine nature, the nature of Humanity. He didn't CEASE to be Divine. He ADDED humanity.

All mankind exists in the form and likeness of God since God made man in His image. So your analysis of Philippians leaves a lot to be desired.

see? that's why it would help if you'd read what i've already written. i've answered this elementary challenge several times already. every other human is sinful besides Christ, so we cannot be considered equal to Him in that sense. we're automatically excluded from that extrapolation. please don't resort to that anymore.

Jesus was born a freeman and He emptied Himself of the perogatives of a freeman and humbled Himself as a Servant (shall I repost all the Messianic prophesies concerning God's anointed servant?), there God highly exalted Him so that at His name, not the person every knee will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God not the glory of Jesus. However, since the spirit of the Son was the first spirit God created we can understand the above to mean that the Son (who was originally spirit) became a man (John 1:1f), but again this does not prove or even indicate Jesus is God.

all this right here just demonstrates that you haven't read what i've already written, and it equivocates on what these passages mean. i've already shown the idea of "first-born" as you've used it to be false (and hopefully closed the issue in the beginning portion of this post right here).

and to say that John 1:1 still makes sense because Jesus was created first, (or like you've said in a different post, that it's God's "Divine Plan", when quoting Philo) still runs into the problem of calling Jesus or that "Divine Plan" God: "And the Word WAS God" (John 1:1).

so you have an even bigger problem with this verse. you're making a created being God, or a "Plan" equal to God. now THAT'S blasphemy.

What Scriptures have I ignored,

glad you asked. i posted some of them earlier. i also made another post before that had a couple of things that i wanted you to address that i still haven't gotten an answer for.

and why do you object at my posting God's word to show you why I believe what I believe?

hmm mm. nuh uh. don't try that. we're not simply talking about what we "believe" it says. we're trying to demonstrate what it DOES say. which is what you've been doing all along. matter of fact, you've been on the "offensive" most of the time here. don't try and change the point of this debate now.

Jesus tells us the God's word is truth, so why avoid God's truth?

this stance is not only too soft, but it's wrongheaded. God's Word IS Truth, but the INTERPRETATIONS that people may have are not always consistent with that Truth (as evidenced by this very debate).

i have no doubt that you would categorically refute and correct a person who believed in the Bible but claimed that Jesus was not crucified and was not our Savior. you would challenge them just as you've done countless other times on these forums. so why should this issue be any different?

if you believe the Word says something, then you should destroy the false arguments against it (2 Cor 10:4-5).

[Aineo]

So what you are trying to tell me is that David, who was King of Israel is saying God will make him His first-born? Why should David be writing about a future event "I will make him" (not I have made you) my first-born? David goes from the 1st person to the 3rd person in this Psalm in the middle of verse 20. In verse 24 God tells David that his "horn" will be exalted. Now in Philippians we read that God highly exalted Jesus (the horn of David).

what about them? you keep posting them, saying that they're talking about a man, and i agree. how's that a refusal to address them?

God is not a man.

Numbers 23:19
19 "God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? NAS

What title did Jesus most often use for Himself? Jesus refers to Himself as the "Son of Man" 160 times in the Gospels.

You know absolutetruth, you as well as others seem to want to ignore that God appointed Jesus His heir, which makes Jesus the Lord of the Sabbath. God anointed His Son as our Savior, King, Lord, and Judge. We find this information in the Messianic prophesies as well as in Hebrews:

Hebrews 1:1-2
1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. NAS

In Revelation 3:12 Jesus promises to make those who overcome pillars in the Temple of "My God". Now tell me absolutetruth, does God have a God?

Now, you can hang around in the Gospels to try to defend that Jesus is God but when you take the whole word of God into account Jesus is revealed as the first-born of all creation and a man who God highly exalted after anointing Him King and heir over all His creation.

[absolutetruth]

So what you are trying to tell me is that David, who was King of Israel is saying God will make him His first-born? Why should David be writing about a future event "I will make him" (not I have made you) my first-born?

are you serious? you're asking why someone (God in this case) would speak about future events? Jesus does (Luke 18:32-33), Peter does (2 Peter 2:2-3). They even talk about past events like the Flood and Adam and Eve and Enoch and Moses. what's your point?

David goes from the 1st person to the 3rd person in this Psalm in the middle of verse 20.

that's just a lie, or bad grammar on your part. nowhere is there any sign of writing in the 3rd person. it's all 1st. God's Words through David. you said something that wasn't true.

In verse 24 God tells David that his "horn" will be exalted. Now in Philippians we read that God highly exalted Jesus (the horn of David).

ahhh...but there IS a distinction between "his" (David) and "horn" meaning that David is not the horn, nor is the horn David. which makes perfect sense with what i'm saying, but flies in the face of your argument.

and again, what's your point? i agree about the "horn". i'm talking about David here, which is clearly who these verses are referring to. i can't believe that you don't see that. you're trying not to.

God is not a man.

no He isn't a man. the Divine Jesus took on human form and became a man while retaining His Divinity. and this verse from Numbers is taken out of context. it's referring to God and morality, saying that God doesn't lie or tell false things or break His promises like men. so Jesus, never having done any of these things keeps the criteria.

there are qualifications "that He should lie", "that He should repent". you talk about context so much, practice it.

What title did Jesus most often use for Himself? Jesus refers to Himself as the "Son of Man" 160 times in the Gospels.

using these verses in Numbers in this way is as silly as those who try and use 2 Peter 3:8 to refer to the days of Genesis. Son of Man is a Messianic title that affirms His humanity. and these verses in Numbers have qualifiers. you don't seem to understand that.

You know absolutetruth, you as well as others seem to want to ignore that God appointed Jesus His heir, which makes Jesus the Lord of the Sabbath. God anointed His Son as our Savior, King, Lord, and Judge. We find this information in the Messianic prophesies as well as in Hebrews.

you keep ignoring what i write. you have taken the position of an ABSOLUTE NEGATION. your position is unsustainable, no matter how stubborn you are in trying to keep it.

and ONCE AGAIN, to call Jesus Judge is to call Him God. i explained this already:

as far as i know in the OT God is THE Judge (Judges 11:27):

"I have not wronged you, but you are doing me wrong by waging war against me. Let the LORD, the Judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites."

it seems false to think that God would relinquish His position of Judge to a mere creation. He IS the Judge. He needs no one to Judge but Himself. in essence He IS the Judge anyway, even if Jesus were appointed to be Judge (if Jesus was created as you say) because Judgment comes from God's very nature and Person when dealing with us.

to say that someone besides God is the Judge is to say something that is intrinsically impossible. Judgment comes from God and ultimately leads back to God. to introduce this "middle-man" would be for God to add an unnecessary step concerning His judgment. To say that Jesus Christ is the Judge, is simply to say that God is the Judge, and therefore that Jesus Christ is God (or Divine).

In Revelation 3:12 Jesus promises to make those who overcome pillars in the Temple of "My God". Now tell me absolutetruth, does God have a God?

Now, you can hang around in the Gospels to try to defend that Jesus is God but when you take the whole word of God into account Jesus is revealed as the first-born of all creation and a man who God highly exalted after anointing Him King and heir over all His creation.

to us Jesus DID have a God.

and i have taken the whole Word into account. once again, like i said, you've taken the stance of an absolute negation. which means that every verse has to support what you say. if there's one verse that contradicts you, then your stance is untennable because a man claiming to be Divine (as Jesus does) is blasphemy, but the Divine Jesus taking on human form and being made in the likeness of a man, is not blasphemy, but the mercy and love of God for us sinners.

you need to understand that before you continue to talk about "context" and the Word.

and the fact that you refuse to address the scriptures i put up and many of my arguments demonstrates your inability to refute them.

this conversation is getting really old man. i understand you're older and more stubborn, and have a lot of time on your hands, but you're being far too unreasonable. please give me a little respect and read what i've posted and stop making me repeat myself. i quote every word you say back to you with an answer. respect me enough to do the same. thanks.

[Aineo]

You accuse me of not understanding your posts and then you either don't understand what I post or your so locked into your traditional beliefs you cannot see the forest for the trees.

David was one of God's prophets. In Psalm 89 David is telling us about the coming Messiah.

Lets cut to the bottom line. Were the prophets looking for the appearance of a triune God or a man who God would exalt above all other men and anoint Him as King?

Psalms 89:26-27
26 "He will cry to Me, 'Thou art my Father,
My God, and the rock of my salvation.' 27 "I also shall make him My first-born,
The highest of the kings of the earth. NAS

Does God have a God? If you have answered this question I missed it, but what do we read in Scripture? Here is just one of many Scriptures that call the Trinity into question:

Ephesians 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. NAS

If Jesus is God then someone forgot to tell Paul and they also forgot to tell Jesus.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" NAS

Revelation 3:12-13
12'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God , and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God , and the name of the city of My God , the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God , and My new name. 13'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'
NAS

[John 10:10]

Jesus declared this in John 17:5,

"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Either Jesus was declaring truth when He spoke these words, or He spoke error.

Those that believe Jesus is a created being will have a hard time explaining their belief when they stand before Him at the judgment seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10).

When one denies the deity of Jesus, then one misunderstands everything else Jesus said and did.

[Aineo]

And in John 17:22 Jesus prays:

John 17:22-23
22 "And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me. NAS

In the OT we read:

Isaiah 42:8
8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.
NAS

Isaiah 48:11
11 "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another.
NAS

When people stand before the judgment seat of the Lord they are going to have to explain why they believe a doctrine first mentioned by a man (Justin Martyr) who originally taught God is 4 (to correspond with the 4 Gospels) not 1 or 3 and why they do not believe God when He said He is one, not a compound unity of 3. He might also inquire as to why people do not believe Him when He prayed this:

John 17:3
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. NAS

The doctrine of the Trinity is nothing more than a tradition of men that modern Christian have learned by rote and have never questioned it validity. God has something to say about traditions learned by rote:

Isaiah 29:13-14

13 Then the Lord said,

"Because this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,
14 Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous;
And the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the discernment of their discerning men shall be concealed. "
NAS

Try getting past all the proof texts taken out of context or used without a full understanding of the foundation of Christianity to test what you have been taught.

[REAPER]

It's a shame that a man who has been studying the scriptures for 50+ years departs from the truth. And as far as taking into consideration the bible as a whole, this is where you have failed miserably.

You are correct by stating that God does not give His glory to another, However the Glory which the Son has existed before creation, and from everlasting to everlasting, and will then be glorified on earth.

John 17:5 - And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

And as far as to "KNOW" the ONLY TRUE GOD "and" Jesus Christ, To know Jesus Christ is to know the only true God and to know the only true God is to Know Christ!

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? [John 14:7-9]

What does the word seen mean?

Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." He then explains in verse 7 to His disciples that they "have seen" and "know" the Father by knowing Him, notice how "have seen" and "know" are parallel when spoken by Jesus. Then in verse 8 Philip continues to fail to understand what Jesus is saying, He says, "shew us the Father". Jesus corrects Philip by repeating that by seeing Him (Jesus) he can "see", i.e., recognize or "know" the invisible Father (v.9) . The context in this passage is apparent, i.e., we could actually see (know, recognize) the invisible Father who is incapable of being seen (1 Tim. 6:16), by knowing and seeing Jesus who is the only way to the Father. God the Son was always (ho on) "who being" in His preexistent state the perfect "exact representation" of the very Person of the Father (hupostaseos), He (Jesus) is the exact replica [autou; hence, "of Him" and not "as Him"] (Heb. 1:3). Therefore, when the disciples saw Jesus, they had "seen" the exact representation and the only way to the invisible Father who is incapable of being seen.

Justin Martyr is a heretic, regardless of the Council of Nicene, the doctrine of a Triune God is clearly seen throughout scriptures.

[Aineo]

The real shame is I took other peoples word for what God is telling us in His word. The other real shame is that men who have more education than I do have continued to teach a doctrine developed by gentiles.

What have these educated men done for hundreds of years? Well, they have tried to redefine "echad" to mean a compound unity. They have taken one verse in Genesis (1:26) and tried to show that since "Us" and "Our" are used in that verse God is a triune God. Now, lets us some of the reasoning power God gave us. Read Genesis 1:27 where the pronoun used is "His". Then look up all the other OT uses of elohiym that refer to God. You will not find the third person pronoun used in any of those verses. Now, look up all the uses of elohiym that do not refer to God and you will find a plethora of Scriptures where elohiym refers to just one god. Here I will save you the trouble since I have already taken the time to do this:

Exodus 22:20
20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
KJV
Deuteronomy 32:39
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
KJV
Judges 6:31
31 And Joash said unto all that stood against him, Will ye plead for Baal? will ye save him? he that will plead for him, let him be put to death whilst it is yet morning: if he be a god, let him plead for himself, because one hath cast down his altar.
KJV
Judges 8:33
33 And it came to pass, as soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel turned again, and went a whoring after Baalim, and made Baal-berith their god.
KJV
Judges 9:27
27 And they went out into the fields, and gathered their vineyards, and trode the grapes, and made merry, and went into the house of their god, and did eat and drink, and cursed Abimelech.
KJV
Judges 11:24
24 Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess? So whomsoever the LORD our God shall drive out from before us, them will we possess.
KJV
Judges 16:23
23 Then the lords of the Philistines gathered them together for to offer a great sacrifice unto Dagon their god, and to rejoice: for they said, Our god hath delivered Samson our enemy into our hand.
KJV
Judges 16:24
24 And when the people saw him, they praised their god: for they said, Our god hath delivered into our hands our enemy, and the destroyer of our country, which slew many of us.
KJV
1 Samuel 5:7
7 And when the men of Ashdod saw that it was so, they said, The ark of the God of Israel shall not abide with us: for his hand is sore upon us, and upon Dagon our god.
KJV
1 Kings 11:33
33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.
KJV
1 Kings 18:27
27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
KJV
2 Kings 1:2
2 And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease.
KJV
2 Kings 1:3
3 But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samaria, and say unto them, Is it not because there is not a God in Israel, that ye go to inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron?
KJV
2 Kings 1:16
16 And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast sent messengers to inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron, is it not because there is no God in Israel to inquire of his word? therefore thou shalt not come down off that bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt surely die.
KJV
2 Kings 19:37
37 And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword: and they escaped into the land of Armenia. And Esar-haddon his son reigned in his stead.
KJV
2 Chronicles 32:15
15 Now therefore let not Hezekiah deceive you, nor persuade you on this manner, neither yet believe him: for no god of any nation or kingdom was able to deliver his people out of mine hand, and out of the hand of my fathers: how much less shall your God deliver you out of mine hand?
KJV
2 Chronicles 32:21
21 And the LORD sent an angel, which cut off all the mighty men of valour, and the leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned with shame of face to his own land. And when he was come into the house of his god, they that came forth of his own bowels slew him there with the sword.
KJV
Isaiah 37:38
38 And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Armenia: and Esar-haddon his son reigned in his stead.
KJV
Daniel 1:2
2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.
KJV
Daniel 11:36
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
KJV
Daniel 11:37
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
KJV
Daniel 11:38
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
KJV
Daniel 11:39
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
KJV
Hosea 13:4
4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
KJV
Amos 5:26
26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
KJV
Amos 8:14
14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beer-sheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
KJV
Jonah 1:5
5 Then the mariners were afraid, and cried every man unto his god, and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it of them. But Jonah was gone down into the sides of the ship; and he lay, and was fast asleep.
KJV
Micah 4:5
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
KJV
Habakkuk 1:11
11 Then shall his mind change, and he shall pass over, and offend, imputing this his power unto his god.
KJV

So you see Reaper what men have been teaching for hundreds of years is not established by the whole word of God.

Paul warned Timothy about men who “strive about” or “wrangle” over words, which is all many theologians have done since John died in about 100 A.D.

2 Timothy 2:14

14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
NAS

2 Timothy 2:14

14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
KJV

2 Timothy 2:14

14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
(from New International Version)

Now, I have already posted a number of Messianic prophesies from the OT that disprove that the Messiah will be God.

As to John 14:7-9, if you believe the Bible explains the Bible then read Hebrews 1.

Hebrews 1:1-4
1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. NAS

These 4 verses are packed with valuable information. We see that God appointed His Son heir of all things who is the exact representation of God’s nature. Now lets add Colossians 1:15:

Colossians 1:15
15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. NAS

Now unless you believe that God had a beginning we can discern that God created the spirit of His Son and explains the “Us” and “Our” of Genesis 1:26 that becomes “His” in verse 27 since God created through His Son.

You mention that Justin Martyr was a heretic, how about the other ECF’s that were the primary definers of the Trinity? Have you read what they wrote?

Now you quoted John 17:5 but did not put that verse in context with:

John 17:22-23
22 "And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me. NAS

Now back up a couple posts and read where God tells us He will not give His glory to another, but Jesus did give His glory to lots of other people.

..the doctrine of a Triune God is clearly seen throughout scriptures.

This is not true. The concept of a triune God comes from Greeks who were influenced by their pagan backgrounds and by a Roman Emperor whose main goal was religious stability in his empire. Constantine was a major influence in Christianity after Christianity was legalized in 313 A.D. A triune God was more palatable to his subjects than the strict monotheism of Judaism.

Jesus is the only way to the Father because the Father decreed that we are saved by His grace through faith in His Son Jesus Christ who God exalted to be both Prince and Savior (Acts 5:31). Or as Paul writes:

Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NAS

I don't read that we are to confess that Jesus Christ is God, do you? I don't read that we are to bow at the person of the Son but at the name of the Son.

There is only one true God and His name is Yehovah, not Yehoshua (Jesus).

[absolutetruth]

Aineo wrote:

You accuse me of not understanding your posts and then you either don't understand what I post or your so locked into your traditional beliefs you cannot see the forest for the trees.

i've responded to everything you've said. you haven't responded to everything i've said. you just choose what you want to respond to. the really diffucult things you ignore. i'm gonna post 'em all again after this and show you what i'm talking about.

David was one of God's prophets. In Psalm 89 David is telling us about the coming Messiah.

funny, cuz verse 20 says "I have found DAVID my servant". and if you challenge that then look at verse 30. we see mention of the subject's sons. did Jesus have any sons? no. so it must be David since no "sons" came from Jesus.

Lets cut to the bottom line. Were the prophets looking for the appearance of a triune God or a man who God would exalt above all other men and anoint Him as King?

well, were they looking for a King that would be mocked and beaten and humble and meak and be humiliated and crucified and die and be lowly? there were OT prophecies that hinted at these things, but the Jewish people had been waiting for a conquering King that would rule with power and authority.

Does God have a God? If you have answered this question I missed it,

i don't know how you missed it. i've had to repeat it several times for you cuz you bring up the SAME objections time and time again. to us, for all practical purposes, and while on earth, Jesus DID have a God. this is how He's mostly referred to in the NT. in His earthly image in our sight, in relation to us. but other verses go further (John 1:1, John 10:30;33)

If Jesus is God then someone forgot to tell Paul and they also forgot to tell Jesus.

not really:

Philipians 2:6-8:

6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

John 10:30-33:30

30I and the Father are one."

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

they both understood QUITE well.

[absolutetruth]

Aineo: here are some of the things that i've said that i haven't gotten a response for:

what (or who) are you talking about putting this "faith" in? in a creation of God? of course not.

and if Christ be not Divine, then what's wrong with the Jehovah's witness stance or Mormon stance (on this particular issue of course)?

i'm thinking of passages like John 5:22-23:

22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

and Alistair Begg commenting on this verse says, "If it is actually impossible not to honor the Father except in the righteous honor of the Son, then those who claim to honor the Father without honoring the Son, do not honor the Father, therefore they must have spiritual power from somewhere. Where?"

a Christian (by the least of definitions) means one who follows the teachings of Christ, and puts faith in Him for their salvation and atonement of their sins. well one of His teachings is that He is One with the Father (Divine).

now keep in mind we're talking about whether a person can truly be called a Christian, not whether one is going to be saved as one. For as some theologians and philosophers like John Macarthur and C.S. Lewis have pointed out that there are prostitutes and other such people from the lowest modes of life that are actually closer to salvation than some of the highest of the “religious” elite.

and i agree with this (somewhat), which is why i didn't try this line of reasoning. although, we have to admit, it can clearly be demonstrated that Jesus is called Lord in a far different way than Saul or anyone else is in the OT. this is firmly supported by the fact that nobody lived a sinless life except Christ. so the other people who may have been called "Lord" ipso facto become excluded from being called "Lord" in the same sense in which we're talking about. Christ didn't sin, and therefore isn't excluded from being God in human flesh (since this is a charactaristic that we would expect from God should He present Himself humanly).

now of course, that doesn't mean that He actually IS God in human flesh, it just means that He's not excluded like the others are, so He can't be referred to as "Lord" in the same sense they are, that's all.

and even God refers to other "gods" in the OT, but that doesn't mean that He really is saying that there are other actual "gods" existing as He does. we can see from context and proper hermeneutics that He was utilizing language that we could understand.

so attempting to demonstrate that since Jesus is called Lord in the NT; and others are referred to as "Lord" in the OT but they were just men; that therefore calling Jesus Lord in the NT is the same as the examples in the OT is to commit a fallacy in logic. in plain language:

"Just because two things have one thing in common, therefore they have everything in common."

so i would say that your argument doesn't work.

now could a man be a man and be God as well? of course not. but could God, become a man, and still be God? certainly, since God is Spirit (John 4:24).

you can't just grab verses that seem to deny the claim to Divinity without looking at the ones that affirm it. and the negative stance is the more difficult stance since a mere man, a creation, claiming to be One with God would be blasphemy of the highest order. however, there's nothing blasphemous about God coming in human form.

this is completely false, even by your own reasoning. because you've said several times that there's ONE GOD. if Jesus (not being Divine as you persist) was "equal" with God, then that would make Him God. anything other than that means that you need to re-word that statement.

as far as i know in the OT God is THE Judge (Judges 11:27):

"I have not wronged you, but you are doing me wrong by waging war against me. Let the LORD, the Judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites."

it seems false to think that God would relinquish His position of Judge to a mere creation. He IS the Judge. He needs no one to Judge but Himself. in essence He IS the Judge anyway, even if Jesus were appointed to be Judge (if Jesus was created as you say) because Judgment comes from God's very nature and Person when dealing with us.

to say that someone besides God is the Judge is to say something that is intrinsically impossible. Judgment comes from God and ultimately leads back to God. to introduce this "middle-man" would be for God to add an unnecessary step concerning His judgment. To say that Jesus Christ is the Judge, is simply to say that God is the Judge, and therefore that Jesus Christ is God (or Divine).

this is merely semantics. i haven't really called Jesus "God", because "God" is actually Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so how can the Son be all 3? i've referred to Jesus as Divine.

and once again, you seem to misunderstand Jesus' humanity. He became fully human and emptied Himself and took on the form of a servant as Philippians 2:6-11 says.

the problem with your position is that it is an absolute negation, or an existential proposition (as Dallas Willard calls it). in order for your position to be right, EVERY SINGLE VERSE has to deny Divinity. not just the ones you've presented (although when properly understood in their CORRECT context don't help you anyway).

Jesus claims to be the eternal "I AM", He claims to be the Truth (who is the Truth but God?), He is resisted and threatened with being stoned to death by the Jews for "Claiming to be God". if He even claims, or its demonstrated, that He was Divine, then either He was, or He was the ultimate blasphemer.

i don't see how it's possible to have Him not be Divine considering all He did and said, and all that was said about Him, while denying that He was not a blasphemer. it doesn't make sense to me.

regarding the "only one God" passages: i agree that there is a distinction that's made. but how else would we have clear understanding on this? passages like Romans 16:27 would end up a little redundant and confusing if it were to read "to the only wise God, through God, be the glory forever." and indeed, other passages would get even more confusing. Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of (God) and of (God) and of (God)." there must be some distinction for clarification. and the context of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 doesn't help you either. since other "gods" are being contrasted to the one true God, the verse juxtaposes false "gods" with the real God. one side of the verse you have "false gods" and the other side you have God, and Jesus Christ. this demonstrates His Divinity, not the opposite.

like i said, you have made an absolute negation. the verses that you've given (that YOU feel deny Christ's Divinity) aren't enough. you need to have EVERY VERSE IN THE BIBLE deny His Divinity, otherwise someone lied, or He's Divine. and i've shown just a few verses that support that claim. if you want more, i'll be glad to provide them.

nor have you responded to this:

Jesus said Himself:

Mark 2:28 Jesus claims to be Lord of the Sabbath. who is Lord of the sabbath but God Himself (Exodus 20:10)?

Mark 2:1-12 Jesus claims authority to forgive sins and performs a miraculous cure to prove it. The scribes are angered because they believe that only God has the authority to forgive sins. These claims are quite extraordinary for someone who is "humble in heart." (Matt 11:29)

John 8:58-59 The full meaning of His statement in John 8:58 is best understood in connection with Exodus 3:14. In Exodus God reveals His name to Moses (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:24 & 58, Jesus is referring to Himself with God's name. The scribes understand Him as such and respond by throwing rocks at Him. They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy - referring to Himself as God (John 5:18 ).

John 10:30-33 Jesus tells the Jews that He is One with the Father. they pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy of claiming to be God. they clearly understood the implications of what He was saying.

Revelations 1:7-8 Jesus is seen as the one who was "pierced" and claims that He is the "Alpha and Omega". surely He is claiming Divinity there. John calls Him "Lord God", and Jesus claims to be "The Almighty".

Revelations 1:17-18 Jesus says again that He is the "First and the Last". and clearly this is Jesus speaking here for He says He was dead, but is alive.

John 5:17 Jesus says that He works on the Sabbath just like the Father works. meaning that He isn't under the law of the sabbath since it was made for men (Mark 2:27). clearly demonstrating His Divinity. which is why the Jews sought to kill Him because He broke the law of the sabbath and made Himself equal with God (John 5:18 ).

[Aineo]

You accuse me of not understanding your posts and then you either don't understand what I post or your so locked into your traditional beliefs you cannot see the forest for the trees.

i've responded to everything you've said. you haven't responded to everything i've said. you just choose what you want to respond to. the really diffucult things you ignore. i'm gonna post 'em all again after this and show you what i'm talking about.

Really, when are you going to respond to the Messianic prophecies I posted? You are avoiding a lot of my posts.

Does God have a God? If you have answered this question I missed it,

i don't know how you missed it. i've had to repeat it several times for you cuz you bring up the SAME objections time and time again. to us, for all practical purposes, and while on earth, Jesus DID have a God. this is how He's mostly referred to in the NT. in His earthly image in our sight, in relation to us. but other verses go further (John 1:1, John 10:30;33)

If Jesus is God then someone forgot to tell Paul and they also forgot to tell Jesus.

not really:

Philipians 2:6-8:

6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

John 10:30-33:30

30I and the Father are one."

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

they both understood QUITE well.

Lets start with John 10, which will answer what you posted concerning Philippians 2. What was Jesus response to the Jews? He quoted this Psalm:

Psalms 82:6
6 I said, "You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High. NAS

Jesus then corrected them by stating He is the Son of God, not God. Now, as to Philippians 2:6-8. You need to toss that NIV and get a word-for-word translation. The Greek word the NIV translates nature is:

NT:3444

morfee, morfees, hee

the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance: Philippians 2:6
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

God created all mankind in the form or image of God. Now lets look at Philippians 2 in a word-for-word translation:

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NAS

I don't see that we are to confess that Jesus Christ is God, do you? This brings me back to the Messianic prophecies you have ignored and refused to respond to.

Psalms 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." NAS

Now, who is David's Lord? "Yehovah says to my Lord", not Yehovah says to my God.

In Acts Peter preached:

Acts 2:36

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-- this Jesus whom you crucified." NAS

In Acts 10:42 we read that God appointed Jesus as the Judge of the living and the dead. In Hebrews we read that God has appointed Jesus as His heir and our High Priest. Odd don't you think that God is appointing God to positions of authority? No, God appointed a Man to positions of authority just as Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:5 that the Man Jesus is the only mediator between God and man.

[John 10:10]

In order for those who believe as does Aineo to be right, 99.99% of Christinaity has to be wrong. I recognize Aineo truly believes 99.99% of Christianity is wrong in this matter regarding the deity of Jesus and the plurality of the Godhead which is ONE, but the Scriptures and the faith of the Apostles and writers of the New Testament say otherwise.

The bottom line is this: The blood of any created being will never save any sinner from their sin. One might as well try good works to earn salvation as to rely on the blood of a created being to cover their sin.

It's as simple and as difficult as that!

Blessings

[absolutetruth]

In order for those who believe as does Aineo to be right, 99.99% of Christinaity has to be wrong. I recognize Aineo truly believes 99.99% of Christianity is wrong in this matter regarding the deity of Jesus and the plurality of the Godhead which is ONE, but the Scriptures and the faith of the Apostles and writers of the New Testament say otherwise.

The bottom line is this: The blood of any created being will never save any sinner from their sin. One might as well try good works to earn salvation as to rely on the blood of a created being to cover their sin.

It's as simple and as difficult as that!

Blessings

simple, yet, absolutely correct.

[Aineo]

In order for those who believe as does Aineo to be right, 99.99% of Christinaity has to be wrong. I recognize Aineo truly believes 99.99% of Christianity is wrong in this matter regarding the deity of Jesus and the plurality of the Godhead which is ONE, but the Scriptures and the faith of the Apostles and writers of the New Testament say otherwise.

The bottom line is this: The blood of any created being will never save any sinner from their sin. One might as well try good works to earn salvation as to rely on the blood of a created being to cover their sin.

It's as simple and as difficult as that!

Blessings

simple, yet, absolutely correct.

Simple but wrong. The plurality of God is an assumption that cannot be established in the OT. It is simple grammar. If the OT taught God is three in one then all the personal pronuns used with "elohiym" in all Scriptures would be "we", "our", and "us". The fact is the pronouns in all Scriptures except Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, and Isaiah 6:8 where God (elohiym) is speaking are first person. Now unless you believe God is playing word games your understanding of the plurality of God is incorrect. When Moses asked God His name the response was I AM WHO I AM, not WE ARE WHO WE ARE. "I" is not plural.

As to this:

The blood of any created being will never save any sinner from their sin.

One of Jesus' titles is the Lamb of God. God supplied the sacrifice and since God choose the Lamb who would die on the cross the Lamb had to be a human being because God cannot die.

And BTW, absolutetruth I have addressed all your questions. Jesus is our Lord, Savior, Judge, and etc. because God appointed Him to be our Lord, Savior, Judge, and etc. If you have read what I posted with any understanding and know what both the JW's and Mormon's believe you would understand I do not support or agree with either one of those cults.

As to how we can honor the Lord as we honor God:

Malachi 1:6

6 "'A son honors his father, and a servant his master. Then if I am a father, where is My honor? And if I am a master, where is My respect?' says the LORD of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name.
NAS

John 5:19-23

19 Jesus therefore answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and greater works than these will He show Him, that you may marvel. 21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. NAS

Now, you have not addressed the Messianic prophecies that I posted.

BTW, Jesus tells us that many are called but few are chosen. The fact that 2 billion people profess to be Christians is no guarantee they are saved or have a true knowledge of God's word.

So lets see if I can make this very simple.

Acts 3:12-26
12 But when Peter saw this, he replied to the people, "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this, or why do you gaze at us, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk? 13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered up, and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. 14 "But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. 16 "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. 17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18 "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 "Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 "Moses said, 'The Lord God shall raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed in everything He says to you. 23'And it shall be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' 24 "And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25 "It is you who are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.' 26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." NAS

Now what did Moses prophecy about the Lord? You can read it in Deuteronomy 18:15ff, which is one of those Messianic prophecies you have avoided addressing. Is God a prophet like Moses? If your answer is no, then I suggest you rethink Jesus is God since none of the Messianic prophecies tell us God is going to die on a cross.

[REAPER]

Simple but wrong. The plurality of God is an assumption that cannot be established in the OT. It is simple grammar. If the OT taught God is three in one then all the personal pronuns used with "elohiym" in all Scriptures would be "we", "our", and "us". The fact is the pronouns in all Scriptures except Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, and Isaiah 6:8 where God (elohiym) is speaking are first person. Now unless you believe God is playing word games your understanding of the plurality of God is incorrect. When Moses asked God His name the response was I AM WHO I AM, not WE ARE WHO WE ARE. "I" is not plural.

When God spoke to Moses and said "I AM THAT I AM", who is speaking in this verse? If God is indeed a plurality, all 3 persons or "subsistences" would have to be speaking in order for God to say "WE ARE WHO WE ARE". God the Father is speaking in this passage and refers to Himself as "I".

Now what did Moses prophecy about the Lord? You can read it in Deuteronomy 18:15ff, which is one of those Messianic prophecies you have avoided addressing. Is God a prophet like Moses? If your answer is no, then I suggest you rethink Jesus is God since none of the Messianic prophecies tell us God is going to die on a cross.

AS man, Christ is one who is Greater than Moses. He is not like Moses in His Divine Nature, but in His Human Nature.

[REAPER]

Also I will return later to address your last rebuttal to my post which I have yet to answer.

[absolutetruth]

Simple but wrong. The plurality of God is an assumption that cannot be established in the OT. It is simple grammar. If the OT taught God is three in one then all the personal pronuns used with "elohiym" in all Scriptures would be "we", "our", and "us". The fact is the pronouns in all Scriptures except Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, and Isaiah 6:8 where God (elohiym) is speaking are first person. Now unless you believe God is playing word games your understanding of the plurality of God is incorrect. When Moses asked God His name the response was I AM WHO I AM, not WE ARE WHO WE ARE. "I" is not plural.

please tell me, what is it that you feel these verses are saying? if He is referred to in both singular and plural, or refers to Himself in both singular and plural, what does that mean?

can God being a complete monad ever refer to Himself in the plural? no.

can God being a single God of three persons in unity, refer to Himself in the singular? yes. plural? yes.

your conclusions are too simplistic. you pose questions to us, while there's no answers for the same questions when applied to your beliefs.

One of Jesus' titles is the Lamb of God. God supplied the sacrifice and since God choose the Lamb who would die on the cross the Lamb had to be a human being because God cannot die.

of course God cannot die since God is Spirit (John 4:24).

but how can a finite created being (as you say Jesus is) ever cover our infinite sin against an infinite God? our sin is infinite because God is infinite, and we have sinned against Him. the sacrifice of a created being isn't sufficient to atone for that. you don't seem to understand that.

And BTW, absolutetruth I have addressed all your questions.

really? you didn't answer this one:

now could a man be a man and be God as well? of course not. but could God, become a man, and still be God? certainly, since God is Spirit (John 4:24).

you can't just grab verses that seem to deny the claim to Divinity without looking at the ones that affirm it. and the negative stance is the more difficult stance since a mere man, a creation, claiming to be One with God would be blasphemy of the highest order. however, there's nothing blasphemous about God coming in human form.

or adequately respond to this:

as far as i know in the OT God is THE Judge (Judges 11:27):

"I have not wronged you, but you are doing me wrong by waging war against me. Let the LORD, the Judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites."

it seems false to think that God would relinquish His position of Judge to a mere creation. He IS the Judge. He needs no one to Judge but Himself. in essence He IS the Judge anyway, even if Jesus were appointed to be Judge (if Jesus was created as you say) because Judgment comes from God's very nature and Person when dealing with us.

to say that someone besides God is the Judge is to say something that is intrinsically impossible. Judgment comes from God and ultimately leads back to God. to introduce this "middle-man" would be for God to add an unnecessary step concerning His judgment. To say that Jesus Christ is the Judge, is simply to say that God is the Judge, and therefore that Jesus Christ is God (or Divine).

or this:

the problem with your position is that it is an absolute negation, or an existential proposition (as Dallas Willard calls it). in order for your position to be right, EVERY SINGLE VERSE has to deny Divinity. not just the ones you've presented (although when properly understood in their CORRECT context don't help you anyway).

Jesus claims to be the eternal "I AM", He claims to be the Truth (who is the Truth but God?), He is resisted and threatened with being stoned to death by the Jews for "Claiming to be God". if He even claims, or its demonstrated, that He was Divine, then either He was, or He was the ultimate blasphemer.

i don't see how it's possible to have Him not be Divine considering all He did and said, and all that was said about Him, while denying that He was not a blasphemer. it doesn't make sense to me.

or this:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 doesn't help you either. since other "gods" are being contrasted to the one true God, the verse juxtaposes false "gods" with the real God. one side of the verse you have "false gods" and the other side you have God, and Jesus Christ. this demonstrates His Divinity, not the opposite.

or most of these:

Jesus said Himself:

Mark 2:28 Jesus claims to be Lord of the Sabbath. who is Lord of the sabbath but God Himself (Exodus 20:10)?

Mark 2:1-12 Jesus claims authority to forgive sins and performs a miraculous cure to prove it. The scribes are angered because they believe that only God has the authority to forgive sins. These claims are quite extraordinary for someone who is "humble in heart." (Matt 11:29)

John 8:58-59 The full meaning of His statement in John 8:58 is best understood in connection with Exodus 3:14. In Exodus God reveals His name to Moses (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:24 & 58, Jesus is referring to Himself with God's name. The scribes understand Him as such and respond by throwing rocks at Him. They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy - referring to Himself as God (John 5:18 ).

John 10:30-33 Jesus tells the Jews that He is One with the Father. they pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy of claiming to be God. they clearly understood the implications of what He was saying.

Revelations 1:7-8 Jesus is seen as the one who was "pierced" and claims that He is the "Alpha and Omega". surely He is claiming Divinity there. John calls Him "Lord God", and Jesus claims to be "The Almighty".

Revelations 1:17-18 Jesus says again that He is the "First and the Last". and clearly this is Jesus speaking here for He says He was dead, but is alive.

John 5:17 Jesus says that He works on the Sabbath just like the Father works. meaning that He isn't under the law of the sabbath since it was made for men (Mark 2:27). clearly demonstrating His Divinity. which is why the Jews sought to kill Him because He broke the law of the sabbath and made Himself equal with God (John 5:18 ).

i haven't been given answers or responses to any of those.

Jesus is our Lord, Savior, Judge, and etc. because God appointed Him to be our Lord, Savior, Judge, and etc. If you have read what I posted with any understanding and know what both the JW's and Mormon's believe you would understand I do not support or agree with either one of those cults.

like i said before:

it seems false to think that God would relinquish His position of Judge to a mere creation. He IS the Judge. He needs no one to Judge but Himself. in essence He IS the Judge anyway, even if Jesus were appointed to be Judge (if Jesus was created as you say) because Judgment comes from God's very nature and Person when dealing with us.

to say that someone besides God is the Judge is to say something that is intrinsically impossible. Judgment comes from God and ultimately leads back to God. to introduce this "middle-man" would be for God to add an unnecessary step concerning His judgment. To say that Jesus Christ is the Judge, is simply to say that God is the Judge, and therefore that Jesus Christ is God (or Divine).

As to how we can honor the Lord as we honor God

we can't without being idolaters. i explained this already:

no? well, the Father is honored with worship and praise and communication of prayer. apply those things to Jesus and we are idoloters (taking the praise and worship that belongs to God and giving it to someone or something else) be He not God. you've merely said words not reality.

Now, you have not addressed the Messianic prophecies that I posted.

what is it i haven't addressed? they speak of a man, i don't disagree. please be more specific and tell me what you want me to respond to. thanks.

BTW, Jesus tells us that many are called but few are chosen. The fact that 2 billion people profess to be Christians is no guarantee they are saved or have a true knowledge of God's word.

that's true. i agree with that. however, we would expect that the Word He has given us is clear enough that the majority of those who read it and understand it, aren't completely false in what they believe. to say that SO many are mislead by what (you claim) a few people around the time of Christ have falsely told us and led us to believe, seems a bit hard to swallow.

the people closest to the actual time of Christ believed in His Divinity. they had a better understanding than any of us. how you can be so bold as to say they were completely mistaken is beyond me.

Now what did Moses prophecy about the Lord? You can read it in Deuteronomy 18:15ff, which is one of those Messianic prophecies you have avoided addressing.

avoided? i love that prophecy. i defend it against Muslims all the time.

Is God a prophet like Moses?

you're just setting up straw-men all over the place because you're DELIBERATELY ignoring the fact that we believe that Jesus, being fully Divine, took on Human form and added human nature onto His being. so if you're asking "Could God take on human form and show Himself to us as a Prophet like Moses?" my answer is "Yes."

UNDERSTAND what we believe before you go making silly accusations and asking misguided questions.

If your answer is no, then I suggest you rethink Jesus is God since none of the Messianic prophecies tell us God is going to die on a cross.

we think that Jesus is Divine, and He took on Human nature (which is CONSISTENT with the messianic prophecies) and sacrificed Himself on the Cross for us.

your problem is that you don't understand what we believe in the fist place, so it's easy for you to make a mockery of it. you set up, and knock down straw-men of your own making.

[Aineo]

Who was God talking to when He used the third person pronouns? His first creation who was the Spirit of His Son who God used to create. Read Colossians 1 and Hebrews 1.

As to your explanation about God being both singular and plural these are simply empty words.

Ephesians 5:6-7
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.
(from New International Version)

but how can a finite created being (as you say Jesus is) ever cover our infinite sin against an infinite God? our sin is infinite because God is infinite, and we have sinned against Him. the sacrifice of a created being isn't sufficient to atone for that. you don't seem to understand that.

You need to make up your mind. You insist that God can be both plural and singular and then propose that God cannot use a created being to atone for the sins of man. With God nothing is impossible. The question for us to answer is what does God word tell us about His Messiah starting in Genesis and ending in Revelation.

Jesus did not claim to be the eternal I AM, Jesus said before Abraham was I am. Since the Spirit of the Son was created (Colossians 1:15) before Abraham was born Jesus did exist in the spirit before Abraham was born.

Now, you are either being purposely obtuse and you do not understand plain English. Jesus is our Savior, Judge, Lord, and etc becasue God appointed Him our Savior, Judge, Lord, and etc. I have posted the Scriptures that show this to be the facts.

Now when are you going to respond to my questions concerning the Messianic prophecies? What you have used to respond to Muslims on some other board is not germane to this thread.

Also what does 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 have to do with the Trinity?

Now are you going to engage in discussion or just try to avoid questions and Scripture that show the Trinity is a false doctrine.

[absolutetruth]

Who was God talking to when He used the third person pronouns? His first creation who was the Spirit of His Son who God used to create.

alright. fine. i'll accept that as your answer. makes sense even under your own beliefs.

Read Colossians 1 and Hebrews 1.

this, however is false. i don't see where Jesus is a created being. this is merely your interpretation of these passages, and a false one at that. i've shown this to be true referring to Psalm 89. you keep saying the same things OVER AND OVER again.

As to your explanation about God being both singular and plural these are simply empty words.

how are they empty words? i was merely using them to ask you a question. the question made sense, you just started from different axioms.

You need to make up your mind. You insist that God can be both plural and singular

MORE STRAW-MEN. why don't you try actually READING what i write. i asked can He REFER to Himself in the singular/plural, not that He CAN BE both.

you really need to stop responding so quickly without fully understanding what is being said.

then propose that God cannot use a created being to atone for the sins of man.

what i ACTUALLY said was that it doesn't seem possible for a finite being to atone for an INFINITE transgression against an INFINITE GOD.

like i said last time, you should understand what we believe before attempting to attack or dismantle it.

With God nothing is impossible.

right. no-THING is impossible. but what you're proposing is no thing, therefore it falls outside of the realm of possibilities, even for God. it's an actual impossibility to think that a created finite being can make an infinite atonement for our sins. it doesn't exist because it can't exist. it's pure absurdity.

The question for us to answer is what does God word tell us about His Messiah starting in Genesis and ending in Revelation.

ah yes. Revelation. i seemed to post a couple of verses from there that you haven't responded to yet.

Jesus did not claim to be the eternal I AM, Jesus said before Abraham was I am.

precisely. "I AM". not "I existed". or "I was". He chose the words that they would specifically recognize as only belonging to God Himself. which is WHY they picked up stones to stone Him. blasphemy. claiming to be equal with God. you're blind.

Since the Spirit of the Son was created (Colossians 1:15) before Abraham was born Jesus did exist in the spirit before Abraham was born.

and since you're wrong about this verse (i've shown how you were already) you come to a wrong conclusion regarding Jesus.

Now, you are either being purposely obtuse and you do not understand plain English. Jesus is our Savior, Judge, Lord, and etc becasue God appointed Him our Savior, Judge, Lord, and etc. I have posted the Scriptures that show this to be the facts.

like i said:

as far as i know in the OT God is THE Judge (Judges 11:27):

"I have not wronged you, but you are doing me wrong by waging war against me. Let the LORD, the Judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites."

it seems false to think that God would relinquish His position of Judge to a mere creation. He IS the Judge. He needs no one to Judge but Himself. in essence He IS the Judge anyway, even if Jesus were appointed to be Judge (if Jesus was created as you say) because Judgment comes from God's very nature and Person when dealing with us.

to say that someone besides God is the Judge is to say something that is intrinsically impossible. Judgment comes from God and ultimately leads back to God. to introduce this "middle-man" would be for God to add an unnecessary step concerning His judgment. To say that Jesus Christ is the Judge, is simply to say that God is the Judge, and therefore that Jesus Christ is God (or Divine).

Now when are you going to respond to my questions concerning the Messianic prophecies?

tell me how i've not answered them. and tell me which ones you're talking about. we'll go through them systematically. stop TALKING and post 'em.

What you have used to respond to Muslims on some other board is not germane to this thread.

would you calm down? i was just saying that to show you that i'm familiar with this verse. that's all. goodness.

Also what does 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 have to do with the Trinity?

this:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 doesn't help you either. since other "gods" are being contrasted to the one true God, the verse juxtaposes false "gods" with the real God. one side of the verse you have "false gods" and the other side you have God, and Jesus Christ. this demonstrates His Divinity, not the opposite.

why don't you READ and figure it out. that explains my point right there. and that was also one of the things that you haven't responded to. and you STILL haven't.

Now are you going to engage in discussion or just try to avoid questions and Scripture that show the Trinity is a false doctrine.

it's not me who's dodging, but you. i've answered every word you've written. answer these:

Jesus said Himself:

Mark 2:28 Jesus claims to be Lord of the Sabbath. who is Lord of the sabbath but God Himself (Exodus 20:10)?

Mark 2:1-12 Jesus claims authority to forgive sins and performs a miraculous cure to prove it. The scribes are angered because they believe that only God has the authority to forgive sins. These claims are quite extraordinary for someone who is "humble in heart." (Matt 11:29)

John 8:58-59 The full meaning of His statement in John 8:58 is best understood in connection with Exodus 3:14. In Exodus God reveals His name to Moses (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:24 & 58, Jesus is referring to Himself with God's name. The scribes understand Him as such and respond by throwing rocks at Him. They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy - referring to Himself as God (John 5:18 ).

John 10:30-33 Jesus tells the Jews that He is One with the Father. they pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy of claiming to be God. they clearly understood the implications of what He was saying.

Revelations 1:7-8 Jesus is seen as the one who was "pierced" and claims that He is the "Alpha and Omega". surely He is claiming Divinity there. John calls Him "Lord God", and Jesus claims to be "The Almighty".

Revelations 1:17-18 Jesus says again that He is the "First and the Last". and clearly this is Jesus speaking here for He says He was dead, but is alive.

John 5:17 Jesus says that He works on the Sabbath just like the Father works. meaning that He isn't under the law of the sabbath since it was made for men (Mark 2:27). clearly demonstrating His Divinity. which is why the Jews sought to kill Him because He broke the law of the sabbath and made Himself equal with God (John 5:18 ).

[REAPER]

Since the Spirit of the Son was created (Colossians 1:15) before Abraham was born Jesus did exist in the spirit before Abraham was born.

In other words Jesus said, Before Abraham was Born, I existed as the first created Spirit. This gave the Jews ample reason to stone Him.

GREAT ANSWER!

[Aineo]

Since the Spirit of the Son was created (Colossians 1:15) before Abraham was born Jesus did exist in the spirit before Abraham was born.

In other words Jesus said, Before Abraham was Born, I existed as the first created Spirit. This gave the Jews ample reason to stone Him.

GREAT ANSWER!

Okay, since all you people want to do is ridicule this thread is closed. I will start a new one with specific rules for posts. On the new thread we will address the Messianic prophecies that all of you have apparently decided have no bearing on this discussion.