Christmas is a Pagan Holiday

[onepath22]

It is interesting how many Christians claim that Christmas was Jesus's birthday, but yet this is not the case. December 25th was originally the birthday of Nimrod, a man so evil he married his own mother. Christmas is so corrupted by pagan influence, that most Christians do not even aknowledge the religious aspect of the holiday but rather participate in Christmas out of habit. Here is some other reasons why Christmas does not have a religious origin 1 Christmas is not the word of God, but rather is a pagan ritual adopted by Christians, 2 There is no documented birth of Jesus in the bible or the Torah however the Quran indicates that Jesus was born during a warm time of year 3. Santa Claus? Why do Christians lie to their children and have them believing in falsehood? 4 Christmas is the most commercial holiday in that people are driven into a shopping freenzy, suicide rates are up, crime is up, the stress level of the public is up, and overall it is not a holiday that is beneficial or purposeful. Christmas causes millions of people to rack up large amounts of debt, something that is forbidden to be imposed on fellow Christians.

Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (1 John 2:15,16)

And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more…The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing. (Rev. 18:11,15)

Christmas is of this world. Christians are in a state of Jahaleel (ignorance) for worshipping a false God. Tell me, why do they not worship Adam? He too did not have a father, or a mother for that matter. So why is Jesus anymore special? Other prophets also performed miracles. Jesus was a man, and when he returns Allah will ask him..," Did you tell these people that you were the son of God, the one God who has no partners?" And he will deny all of these claims. Jesus is not responsible for what has happened after him, in fact Christians believed in the one God before his coming, but by some horrible mix up they have come to believe in falsehood. Seek the truth fellow people of the book, and deny falsehood, there is but one God, and we all must answer to him, and him alone.

[onepath22]

1. A Christian is one that believes things his reason cannot comprehend... 2. He believes three to be one, and one to be three; a Father not to be elder than his Son;a Sonto be equal with his Father; and one preceding from both to be equal with both; he believing three persons in one nature, and two natures in one person. 3. He believes a virgin to be a mother of a son, and that very son of hers to be her Maker. He believes Him to have been shut up in a narrow room whom heaven and earth could not contain. He believes Him to have been born in time who was and is from everlasting. He believes Him to have been a weak child, carried in arms, who is the Almighty; and Him once to have died who only hath life and immortality in himself.

[Aineo]

Christmas was originally celebrated on January 7 and still is by the Orthodox faiths. Constantine mandated December 25 as the day Christians celebrate the birth of the Lord and more out of political expediency than for religious reasons since December 25 was the winter solstice and the annual celebration dedicated to Mithra (the sun god). So the fact Nimrod's date of birth is December 25 is coincidence and has no bearing on why this day was mandated by Constantine as the day Jesus was born.

The Reformation resulted in Christmas being banned in all nations not controlled by Catholicism because it had become a season of wild parties and excesses similar to the pagan Saturnalia. This changed in England after Queen Victoria married her German cousin Prince Albert who introduced what we refer to today as the Christmas tree to England.

The United States Congress made Christmas a national holiday in the mid 1800's and it is the first national holiday legislated by Congress. The various customs associated with Christmas have many diverse ethnic and national origins.

BTW, Jesus was probably born on September 3, 3 B.C. The Qur'an is far from an accurate source concerning what Christianity teaches. Paul wrote:

Romans 14:2-12
3 Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,

"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall give praise to God."

12 So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God.
NAS

Colossians 2:16-17

16 Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. NAS

[onepath22]

I can judge others if attack my faith. So Constantine declared December 25th as Jesus's birthday? Did God declare December 25th as Jesus's birthday? Christians are too influenced by this world, and the pleasuers of the this world such as partying, drinking, and so on. I am not suprised that Christmas was banned for a time. It is the same way now! There are still wild parties, fornication, and drinking. The fact is that Christmas is a pagan holiday, and the Christian religion is a distorted version of the truth, which is a fact that comes out in the holidays, rituals, and other aspect of Christian traditions.

And I will ask this again, Does this make sense to you? God gave mankind the ability to distinguish between right and wrong and the ability to make sense of things.: 1. A Christian is one that believes things his reason cannot comprehend... 2. He believes three to be one, and one to be three; a Father not to be elder than his Son;a Sonto be equal with his Father; and one preceding from both to be equal with both; he believing three persons in one nature, and two natures in one person. 3. He believes a virgin to be a mother of a son, and that very son of hers to be her Maker. He believes Him to have been shut up in a narrow room whom heaven and earth could not contain. He believes Him to have been born in time who was and is from everlasting. He believes Him to have been a weak child, carried in arms, who is the Almighty; and Him once to have died who only hath life and immortality in himself.

Contradictions after contradictions, learn the truth o people of the book.

[Apple Pie]

2. He believes three to be one, and one to be three; a Father not to be elder than his Son;a Sonto be equal with his Father; and one preceding from both to be equal with both; he believing three persons in one nature, and two natures in one person. .

Same as in the Koran...

[onepath22]

How is it the same as the Quran? Muslims do not worship three...only one. The one true god who has no partners. You speak blasphemy and you obviously do not have an accurate understanding of Islam.

[Apple Pie]

How is it the same as the Quran? Muslims do not worship three...only one. The one true god who has no partners. You speak blasphemy and you obviously do not have an accurate understanding of Islam.

Perhaps you don't understand Arabic...as your Koran clearly proclaims a plurality at the Throne...

How did you miss this...?

[onepath22]

What? Please elaborate on this "plurality". The only way one can become a muslim is to take shahadah and say there is only one god, unlike the paganistic trinity of the Christian tradition.

[Aineo]

onepath22, you rant with lack of knowledge and therefore make yourself a fool.

You are judging Christainity based on the actions of people who profess to be Christians and then get angry when Islam is judged by the actions of professed Muslim's. So some Christians observe Christmas and you defend a religion that is used to kill Muslim men and women for political reasons. Who is the worst hypocrite, those who celebrate the birth of our Lord or those who kill innocents?

[Apple Pie]

What? Please elaborate on this "plurality". The only way one can become a muslim is to take shahadah and say there is only one god, unlike the paganistic trinity of the Christian tradition.

Please tell us what this Koranic word is....قُوَّةٍ.

More importantly, do you understand its meaning....?

[onepath22]

One can say the same about Christianity. You profess that those who follow Jesus are true Christians so therefore are not affiliated with the atrocities that Christians have committed against people for hundreds of years. Islam is not a religion of violence, but as Muslims were are allowed to defend ourselves against others. Human nature calls for it. You so called Christians profess to be followers of a peaceful way of life, so therefore you are the biggest hypocrites of All. You do not even practice your own religion, but rather attack Muslims for practicing ours. You make yourself look like a fool, because you follow your religion blindly with reasons to prove that it is the true religion. Let me get this straight--Islam is not a religion. It is a way of life, if is a way of living. It is not something we do once a week on Sundays. The original Christians prayed three times a day, and Christians don't even do that anymore. Islam is an ensemble of God's laws which we are to follow. Christians have this view that mankind is incapable of saving oneself, and that we need help because we cannot stop ourselves from sinning. Why did God give us common sense, and morality if we cannot decide for ourselves whether to do right or wrong? I will no longer deny the truth for fear of hurting ones feelings. Chritians kill innocent people too, in the name of their religion. I can do what most of you Christians do--I'll just say that muslims who
kill other innocent muslims (supposedly) are no longer muslims. Right? Isn't that what you do to avoid the blame for evils commited against mankind by Christians? Christianity is based on falsehood, and a distorted version of the true word of God. When Jesus comes you all will have to stand before God and tell him what you have done, by refusing to except the one God who created you and all the prophets. You, people of the book, must save your own souls, no one else is going to do it for you. God has already made a means for your salvation, but it is your responsibility to seek it out. After resent events that I have witnessed which I am not going to mention, now there is no doubt in my heart that Islam is the true way of life that will demonate all others. 2050 Islamic state

[Apple Pie]

Here is the ayah in which the word resides...

ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ


Now....tells us your understanding of the term....

[Aineo]

Hey onepath22 you have started one thread after another attacking what you do not understand and have posted lots of misinformation. As to Muslim's defending themselves against those who attack you, don't you think it is only human nature for us to defend ourselves? Who invaded Spain, who destroyed Christian churches and Jewish synagogues in Jerusalem that resulted in the Crusades? Who fired the first shot in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? The answer to all the above is Muslims.

Now, do you think you can respond to Applepie's questions or are you going to be like all the other Muslim's who make ridiculous assertions regarding Christianity without any proof that Christianity teaches what you assert it does and then ignore our questions?

[onepath22]

Well, Apple Pie this term, ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ , means "Endued with power. With Rank before the Lord of the Throne. This passage is from Surah Al Takwir which gives a description of the day of Judgement. This passage refers to the ressurection of the prophet Isa (Jesus) peace be upon him. Im assuming you mean that this passage is emplying that Jesus is ranking above Allah, but you have misread what it says. It means that Jesus was the greatest messenger of Allah, and this is why his ressurection will be a sign of the day of Judgement. Jesus, as the rest of mankind and the prophets, will have to stand before God and be judged. He will probably be asked if he claimed to be the son of Allah, in which he will deny these claims made by his followers, and all who have forsaken Allah will have to answer to him. Jesus was the most revered of all the prophets even in the Islamic tradition, and for that he ranks highly in the view of God.

[Apple Pie]

Well, Apple Pie this term, ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ , means "Endued with power. With Rank before the Lord of the Throne. This passage is from Surah Al Takwir which gives a description of the day of Judgement. This passage refers to the ressurection of the prophet Isa (Jesus) peace be upon him. Im assuming you mean that this passage is emplying that Jesus is ranking above Allah, but you have misread what it says. It means that Jesus was the greatest messenger of Allah, and this is why his ressurection will be a sign of the day of Judgement. Jesus, as the rest of mankind and the prophets, will have to stand before God and be judged. He will probably be asked if he claimed to be the son of Allah, in which he will deny these claims made by his followers, and all who have forsaken Allah will have to answer to him. Jesus was the most revered of all the prophets even in the Islamic tradition, and for that he ranks highly in the view of God.

A few things…

1) You simply copied-pasted the Yusuf Ali translation, nothing more.
2) “quwwatin”, much less the ayah in which it resides, does not refer to the Day of Judgment
3) “quwwatin”, much less the ayah in which it resides, does not refer to the Resurrection of Jesus…this is not referred to until 81.26…and, of which, is a singular event pertaining to Jesus Himself via the word “Faayna”
4) “quwwatin” conveys the idea of two (or more) things intertwined to become one thing…hence, since you already acknowledge that it refers to Jesus, you will have no choice but to also acknowledge that Jesus occupies the Throne of God – just as proclaimed in the Holy Bible
5) This sura, which has been copied entirely from the Book of Revelation, clearly shows Jesus as God Almighty





Here is a summary of these two very important ayahs as compared to their source…





Summary of 81.20

• Revelation tells us that the Jesus occupies the Throne of God
• 81.20 builds upon 81.19 by informing us that His Word (i.e. Jesus) with the Holy Message, is “thee” (genitive case) in possession of “quwwatin” (singular), or the one (and only) power
• Amazingly, in addition to “quwwatin” referring to power or strength, it also has the meaning “and separately twisted portion of two or more which, being twisted together, compose the whole of a rope, and of a string, or thread”
• Thus, “quwwatin” conveys the idea of two (or more) things intertwined to become one thing
• Revelation informs us that the Lamb is in the “mesos”, or midst of the “thronos”, or throne
• Likewise, 81.20 tells us that He is “inda” (A particle used as a preposition to denote time and place), or in the presence of “alAAarshi”, or the throne
• There are numerous Koranic examples where allah is “Lord of the throne”; thus, when the Word (i.e. Jesus) is referred to as Lord of the Throne – there can be no doubt that Jesus is God
• 81.20 specifically utilizes “thee” twice in this one ayah; the first is to signify possession of the singular power of the Word, and the second is used to signify the possession of the throne by the Word
• Revelation tells us that the one sitting on the throne is of the appearance of “sardinos”, or a reddish brown variety of chalcedony
• Interestingly, 81.20 describes the “arshi”, or throne as “a red sapphire, which glistens with the light of the supreme”
• 81.20 closes by mentioning “makeenin”, or the established one, from the root “makuna” (meaning he made Him to have dominion) which clearly indicates that the Word (from 81.19), is God Almighty
• The authors of the Koran copied the Book of Revelation, and, more importantly, they understood who the Biblical Jesus is. Revelation clearly shows us the deity interchangeability between God and Jesus, as they are one in the same. Ironically, this ayah also demonstrates the same exact thing by showing that the two are, in fact, one in the same





Summary of 81.21

• Revelation tells us that Jesus not only occupies the Throne of God, but that He is “lat reuo”, or served, as well as “aineo”, or praised, and “proskuneo”, or worshiped , and “phobeo”, or feared as God, as well
• 81.21 continues with 81.20 by informing us that His Word (i.e. Jesus) not only occupies the Throne of God, but that He is “mutaAAin” (singular), or the “obeyed one” – that He is entitled to be obeyed
• A survey of the Koran yields 37 ayahs that mention that both allah and his messenger (i.e. Jesus) are to be obeyed
• Hence, the proclamation in 81.21 of a singular obeying at the throne is to be expected
• Revelation describes the worshiping of God on the Throne with the added suffix of “Amen”
• Interestingly, 81.21 also follows suit by adding its own “ameenin”, or Amen
• Revelation also describes the worshiping of God on the Throne with the added suffix of “allelouia”, or praise ye Lord
• “Ameenin”, in 81.21, can also mean “O’Lord”, as it is one of the names of God – thus adding additional support to Jesus being God Almighty







Thanks…

[Aineo]

This passage refers to the ressurection of the prophet Isa (Jesus) peace be upon him. Im assuming you mean that this passage is emplying that Jesus is ranking above Allah, but you have misread what it says. It means that Jesus was the greatest messenger of Allah, and this is why his ressurection will be a sign of the day of Judgement. Jesus, as the rest of mankind and the prophets, will have to stand before God and be judged. He will probably be asked if he claimed to be the son of Allah, in which he will deny these claims made by his followers, and all who have forsaken Allah will have to answer to him. Jesus was the most revered of all the prophets even in the Islamic tradition, and for that he ranks highly in the view of God.

You have posted nothing but assumptions concerning Christianity. Christians do not believe or teach that Jesus is above God. Jesus will not deny His own Father and to assume He will is blasphemy and denies Jesus' own words.

Where is your proof that the Bible has been corrupted by men? Muslims throw this around like confetti without proof.

[Kai Hagbard]

Funny one-path

Your own Ramadan pre-existed before Muhammad, so did the pilgrimage, the five prayers, etc.

These were all pagan rites, which Muhammad or his followers mixed with the Judaic religion.

You kiss a black stone, that supposedly fell from heaven. The trend to worship meteorites was common in Muhammad's time and kissing was a sign of worship and honour.

It is also a fact that Muhammad's followers after his death were somehow reluctant to kiss the stone, but did so only because they had observed Muhammad do it.

If Islam is so free from idolatry, explain why hundreds of thousands of Muslims every year so eagerly give their honour and respect to a STONE?

In my country which is not influenced by ancient Rome or Babylon Christmas was originally practiced to celebrate the end of the winter, and the arrival of the brighter days.
Hence there is no need to state that because Christians celebrate Christmas they necessarily celebrate a Roman or Babylonian festival.
In my case Christmas is first and most a cultural thing. No paganism is attached to it.

Can you say that about your pilgrimage and your black stone?

[Apple Pie]

Looks like oneway does not understand that the "one" god described in his book of faith is actually plural.....

[MuslimGladiator]

Peace be upon who follows the right way,

It is so funny when the person find someone does not understand Arabic speak about the Quran! And what is funnier, when the person find people explain the verses of the Quran like how they wish. Many times, Quran is not the Bible.

Most of Christians’ debaters are blind to see the meaning of Quran’s verse or to check if the verses are related to the other verses.

Let us see the Verse which people talk about here and explain it as they wish,

(Surah 81, Verse 20) The translation of the Meanings of the Quran by (ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI)

{Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne,}

Many times I told my Christian friends do not talk about the Quran because you lose a lot of points. You should know Arabic grammar and terms before you talk, but for some listen, and some still like how they are. Anyways,

Some here said that this verse related to Isa, Juses (Peace be upon him). And I really do not know from where did they get this idea? And another one said “so he is above God”. That really reminds me with a blind man took the hand of another blind man to show him the way.

If people moved their eyes a little bit further for the verse (19) from the same Surah which it is above this verse,

[81:19] The translation of the Meanings of the Quran are by (ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI)
{Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger}

So, if we put the verses together, the picture will be clear,

The translation of the Meanings of the Quran is:
[81:19]{Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger}
[81:20]{Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne,}

The "verse 20", related to "verse 19"
Do you guys get now for whom this verse aim to? Do you know who the most honourable Messenger is? And then who is Endued with Power? But sorry, your Arabic is not good and this is just a translation in English for the meanings, not for the Qurah itself. So, as a general rule, when you have a translation, you should see the comments on it which make by the translator himself. I do that in my sereach of the Bible. Anyways

If the people who argued here just moved their eyes a little bit further after this verse, they would understand the verse more,

The translation of the Meanings of the Quran,
[81:21] {With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.}

[81:22] {And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed;}

[81:23]{And without doubt he saw him in the clear horizon.}

{With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.} Who is that? Of course it depends on what it had been said before.

Then the Quran said,"your companion” Was Jesus the companion of the people in this time?! For Christian’s debaters the answer will be “yes why not”? Then on the next verse Quran said, {he saw him in the clear horizen} did you see the term "AND"?

If the people here speak Arabic, they will not have a problem at all, but, anyways,

*The first verse talked about our prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him)

{most honourable Messenger} means Our prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him)

*Then in turned to talk about the Angel whom took him in his trip (Isra and Merj)

{Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne,} ,
I am not going to comment, I will let the man who translated this verse ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI explains it for us:
{Not only was the bringer of the Revelation, Gabriel, an honourable Messenger, incapable of deceit, but he had, in the angelic kingdom, rank and authority before Allah's Throne}.
You can buy his translation to check that yourself before you just argue. So, he meant by {Lord of the Throne}, God's throne. He was the person who made the translation besides the explanation.

*Then the Surah returned back again to talk about our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him)

{With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.} This refers to our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him). The people of our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him) used to call him “The honest and the faithful" before his prophecy. Then they called him lair after it. So, Allah reminds them and be a witness to his prophecy.

*Still talks about our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him)

{And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed;} This refers to our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him) Because of his people (Qurish) said he is a mad man. So, God explains for them that he is not a mad man. And remind them that he their companion, and if he was a mad man, they would discovered that before his prophecy.

and these are the verses in Arabic for whom may it concern:

Quran. 81:19-23[/b]
(19)إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ
(20)ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ
(21)مُطَاعٍ ثَمَّ أَمِينٍ
(22)وَمَا صَاحِبُكُمْ بِمَجْنُونٍ

And that is how our prophet's friends understand it. And that is how all the Ealier and recent Muslims understand it,

Tafsir Ibn Kather

" ذِي قُوَّة " كَقَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى " عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيد الْقُوَى ذُو مِرَّة " أَيْ شَدِيد الْخَلْق شَدِيد الْبَطْش وَالْفِعْل " عِنْد ذِي الْعَرْش مَكِين " أَيْ لَهُ مَكَانَة عِنْد اللَّه عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَمَنْزِلَة رَفِيعَة قَالَ أَبُو صَالِح فِي قَوْله تَعَالَى " عِنْد ذِي الْعَرْش مَكِين " قَالَ جِبْرِيل يَدْخُل فِي سَبْعِينَ حِجَابًا مِنْ نُور بِغَيْرِ إِذْن .

Tafsir El-Tabari

وَقَوْله : { ذِي قُوَّة عِنْد ذِي الْعَرْش مَكِين } يَقُول تَعَالَى ذِكْره : ذِي قُوَّة , يَعْنِي جِبْرَائِيل عَلَى مَا كُلِّفَ مِنْ أَمْر غَيْر عَاجِز { عِنْد ذِي الْعَرْش مَكِين } يَقُول : هُوَ مَكِين عِنْد رَبّ الْعَرْش الْعَظِيم .

Tafsir El-Kortobi

ذِي قُوَّةٍ
مَنْ جَعَلَهُ جِبْرِيل فَقُوَّته ظَاهِرَة فَرَوَى الضَّحَّاك عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس قَالَ : مِنْ قُوَّته قَلْعُهُ مَدَائِن قَوْم لُوط بِقَوَادِم جَنَاحِهِ .

عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ
أَيْ عِنْد اللَّه جَلَّ ثَنَاؤُهُ

مَكِينٍ
أَيْ ذِي مَنْزِلَة وَمَكَانَة ; فَرُوِيَ عَنْ أَبِي صَالِح قَالَ : يَدْخُلُ سَبْعِينَ سُرَادِقًا بِغَيْرِ إِذْن .


In my trip to know the Bible , I got seven different versions here plus twenty versions on CD from other different languages. Plus the other forteen Gospels , Gnostic Gospels. Plus The Complete Dead See Scrolls, plus...

And I wonder how can people talk about Islam from their own mind.

And for the funny Guy who mock about kissing the black Stone.

Please be honest with yourself then answer me.

Which one is easier and acceptable for the human being?

Kissing a a stone while u know it is just a stone, which means it can not help u or hurt u. But u just kiss it because your prophet told u that it came from the Heaven. Or Drink a wine while u r sure it is a blood of God and eat piece of beard while u r sure, it the body of God.
By the way, Doctors advice us to be away of drinking.

[Aineo]

It is so funny when the person find someone does not understand Arabic speak about the Quran! And what is funnier, when the person find people explain the verses of the Quran like how they wish. Many times, Quran is not the Bible.

Most of Christians’ debaters are blind to see the meaning of Quran’s verse or to check if the verses are related to the other verses.

What you posted may be true, however the same is also true of Muslim's who do not understand the Bible and do not put Scriptures in there full context and then try to tell us what the Bible actually says.

[Joseph]

Peace be upon who follows the right way

Thank you, and peace be upon you

Most of Christians’ debaters are blind to see the meaning of Quran’s verse or to check if the verses are related to the other verses. Many times I told my Christian friends do not talk about the Quran because you lose a lot of points. You should know Arabic grammar and terms before you talk, but for some listen, and some still like how they are.

Yhhh, the magic language of Arabic, or should I say divine language? Nonetheless, I agree, Christians should not waste time arguing Quranic meaning, still you're terribly mistaken: In reality Christians lose no points, since in final analysis the only important interpretation and verdict made of any text, that which is made by reader (I say this is fair enough, would you agree?). In this regard, hard to imagine anyone will yield to your brilliance of Arabic. BTW, just a nickel worth advice for free, exam the above quote to see where and whom else advice is applicable.

And another one said “so he is above God”. That really reminds me with a blind man took the hand of another blind man to show him the way.

Unlike Allah in Quran, who appears greater than his supposed perfect attributes, nothing can be above Bible's God of Abraham and anything which is God cannot be below Him. Yes, Christians do say Jesus is The Name above all names, so this most assuredly includes Quranic Allah. But let me see if I have this right; seventy-five percent of Muslim world neither reads nor writes Arabic, few Arabic literates are scholars of Arabic language and almost none of the western converts to Islam read Arabic. Therefore, the salvation of person (Muslims) is entrusted upon the vision of people such yourself? Mohammed, now you, want to show people the way to an everlasting erection and intercourse unto eternity. Islam the religion of a man taught by men. Do Muslims really suppose they can argue away the unholiness of Mohammed, Quran and Islam with the magic of Arabic language?

In my trip to know the Bible , I got seven different versions here plus twenty versions on CD from other different languages. Plus the other forteen Gospels , Gnostic Gospels. Plus The Complete Dead See Scrolls, plus... And I wonder how can people talk about Islam

Christians know the Bible has a history, and ones who have invested time in learning about its history are ninety-nine percent satisfied with trustworthiness. There appears to exist an endless amount of Christian related material available for research, in contrast to Islamic archive material which are not available to anyone (here atleast) Instead you must believe a book that walked out of cave one day really dropped down from heaven. Otherwise you would not be a good Muslim, should you subject the Quran to same test as Bible.

You need not wonder how Islam can be talked about ("from their own mind'). First noticeable problem with Quran it relies on prior knowledge. Unless you have not been paying attention, Christians have more prior knowledge than Muslims when comes to biblical characters, settings, time. etc. etc. In fact, the average Christians could instruct Mohammed on biblical characters and chronology, where he or the person speaking in Quran appear clueless. However I hope you did not speed much money on your "trip " almost all the material is available via internet.

Had I still been a Muslim, I would have believed the pretense you sincerely investigated Lord Jesus and Bible. Whatever you collected was motivated by prejudice against Christianity and miserable believe if you can disprove Christianity then this proves Mohammed, Quran and Islam. Not even when hell freezes over will this Muslim logic ever be true.

{And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed;} This refers to our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him) Because of his people (Qurish) said he is a mad man. So, God explains for them that he is not a mad man. And remind them that he their companion, and if he was a mad man, they would discovered that before his prophecy.

Well, whether it was discovered before Mohammed became a so-called prophet, is up for grabs, but it sure was considered. Of course later, assassination of anyone who would expose him as mad man and expedient revelations would be very good reason to give Mohammed this title. And less we forget this so-called prophet claimed Creator spoke to him without giving one bit of evidence, except for formerly mentioned actions. Mohammed went on to say Allah showed him how to clean his nose, his feet and their ears; how to eat, what to eat and what not to eat, how to sleep, how to dress and how to shave; Revealed to Mohammed how to copulate, how to defecate and how to urinate, with which foot enter the toilet and on which one place most of the weight while evacuating. Pointed Mohammed on which direction to face during defecation or urination and instructed him how on many pebbles to use for cleaning purposes after the call of the nature, with which hand to clean one’s private parts. Instructed Mohammed what length of the penis can enter the vagina without annulling his fast and how to clean after having a wet dream, or even how to fondle his wives and enjoy them when they are menstruating. "Everything is detailed. Every action is prescribed. these “important” examples set by Mohammad and follow them mindlessly and meticulously in the fond belief that he will have fulfilled his duty as a Muslim and will be rewarded for his “good” deeds."

Please be honest with yourself then answer me.

Which one is easier and acceptable for the human being?

Kissing a a stone while u know it is just a stone, which means it can not help u or hurt u. But u just kiss it because your prophet told u that it came from the Heaven. Or Drink a wine while u r sure it is a blood of God and eat piece of beard while u r sure, it the body of God. By the way, Doctors advice us to be away of drinking.

Doctors also advice us on smoking, high fat intake, lack of exercise and other harmful over-indulgence or poor lifestyle such as excessive alcohol consumption: Yet, indeed many physicians recommend daily glass of wine. Please, no desperation is allowed here. Now, to answer you question honestly. From the beginning man disbelieved God and chose instead to worship and kiss stones, so, worshipping and kissing stones is easier for many to accept. Is there anything you would like to talk about?

Merry Christmas

servant of the Lord Jesus, the One and Only Almighty God
joseph

[Apple Pie]

Peace be upon who follows the right way,

It is so funny when the person find someone does not understand Arabic speak about the Quran! And what is funnier, when the person find people explain the verses of the Quran like how they wish. Many times, Quran is not the Bible.

Even more amazing are the Arabic speaking Muslims that actually think that modern colloquial Arabic will help them in understanding the written text of their book of faith.

Arabic is a horrendously corrupted language that has changed significantly in meaning since the Koran was first penned (not the 1400 years ago….as you are discovering).

Most of Christians’ debaters are blind to see the meaning of Quran’s verse or to check if the verses are related to the other verses.

Not this one.

Let us see the Verse which people talk about here and explain it as they wish,

(Surah 81, Verse 20) The translation of the Meanings of the Quran by (ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI)

{Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne,}

Many times I told my Christian friends do not talk about the Quran because you lose a lot of points. You should know Arabic grammar and terms before you talk, but for some listen, and some still like how they are. Anyways,

You have just provided the quintessential ignorant Islamic mentality.

If you had actually looked very far into the understanding of the classic Arabic in which your book of faith was written, then you have quickly discovered that the best lexicographical work in the field of ancient Arabic, and comprehension of the ayahs of the Koran, were written by a Christian!

E.W. Lane, a Christian, devoted 34 years of his life to compiling the Arabic English Lexicon – which has been the reference standard for the past 150+ years – and is used extensively by Muslims.

Further, the authors who penned your book of faith were more than likely Christians in the first place, as the Arabs of that time where illiterate.

Further still, the authors of your book of faith clearly state that they merely copied the previous Biblical scriptures, and translated them into Arabic.

Thus…as it were…Christians have more right to pursue the understanding of the Islamic Koran than the Muslims who purport to follow it…

Additionally, when it is discovered that the Koran proclaims Jesus as God Almighty – then, yes, we can see first hand just how Islam has grotesquely contorted what was originally penned.

Some here said that this verse related to Isa, Juses (Peace be upon him). And I really do not know from where did they get this idea? And another one said “so he is above God”. That really reminds me with a blind man took the hand of another blind man to show him the way.

This ayah is about Jesus at the Throne.

Period.

This demonstrates the plurality at the Throne – same as declared in the Book of Revelation – from whence it was copied from.

If people moved their eyes a little bit further for the verse (19) from the same Surah which it is above this verse,

[81:19] The translation of the Meanings of the Quran are by (ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI)
{Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger}

So, if we put the verses together, the picture will be clear,

The translation of the Meanings of the Quran is:
[81:19]{Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger}
[81:20]{Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne,}

The "verse 20", related to "verse 19"
Do you guys get now for whom this verse aim to? Do you know who the most honourable Messenger is? And then who is Endued with Power? But sorry, your Arabic is not good and this is just a translation in English for the meanings, not for the Qurah itself. So, as a general rule, when you have a translation, you should see the comments on it which make by the translator himself. I do that in my sereach of the Bible. Anyways

The messenger is Jesus.

There is no doubt.

None.



Summary of 81.19

• Revelation tells us that the “logos”, or Word, of God, is Jesus
• 81.19 begins by informing us of something that is “inna”, or certain
• This thing that is certain is applied to “qawlu”, or Word, via the personal pronoun “hu”, or His, and possessive affirmative particle “la” – thus giving the Word as an inherent attribute of Him
• “laqawlu” occurs three times in the Koran, and in each occurrence it is beyond any reasonable doubt that it directly refers to Jesus
• 81.19 also informs us that His Word is a “kareemin”, or holy, “rasoolin”, or message
• Sura 81 acknowledges Jesus as the Word of God


Do your research.

“laqawlu” is used two other times in your book of faith (69.40 & 86.13).


Observe that 69.40 is an exact replica of 81.19…

69.40 Innahu laqawlu rasoolin kareemin

In context:
• Certainly His Word is a Holy message…69.40
• And He is not a poet’s saying…69.41
• And nor a soothsayer….69.42
• The Revelation, or “tanzeelun”, from the Lord of the jinn, or genii, and of mankind




86.13 Innahu laqawlun faslun

In context:
• And/by the clouds He returned…86.11
• And/by the Earth that of the splitting…86.12
• Certainly His Word (is) Judgment…86.13
• And He is not on account of the vain…86.14



Had you taken your own advice, then you would have seen (from your very own book of faith), that the contextual usage of “laqawlun” directly mentions the Book of Revelation and Him coming with the clouds….exactly as Revelation describes Jesus!

Wake up.


Further, had you taken the time to exegete the ayahs leading up to the ones in question, then you would have discovered that they list the events that transpire when Jesus opens the Seals as described in the Book of Revelation.

Thus, it is beyond any reasonable doubt that sura 81 also directly pertains to Jesus.

If the people who argued here just moved their eyes a little bit further after this verse, they would understand the verse more,

The translation of the Meanings of the Quran,
[81:21] {With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.}

[81:22] {And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed;}

[81:23]{And without doubt he saw him in the clear horizon.}

Let’s review…



Summary of 81.21

• Revelation tells us that Jesus not only occupies the Throne of God, but that He is “lat reuo”, or served, as well as “aineo”, or praised, and “proskuneo”, or worshiped , and “phobeo”, or feared as God, as well
• 81.21 continues with 81.20 by informing us that His Word (i.e. Jesus) not only occupies the Throne of God, but that He is “mutaAAin” (singular), or the “obeyed one” – that He is entitled to be obeyed
• A survey of the Koran yields 37 ayahs that mention that both allah and his messenger (i.e. Jesus) are to be obeyed
• Hence, the proclamation in 81.21 of a singular obeying at the throne is to be expected
• Revelation describes the worshiping of God on the Throne with the added suffix of “Amen”
• Interestingly, 81.21 also follows suit by adding its own “ameenin”, or Amen
• Revelation also describes the worshiping of God on the Throne with the added suffix of “allelouia”, or praise ye Lord
• “Ameenin”, in 81.21, can also mean “O’Lord”, as it is one of the names of God – thus adding additional support to Jesus being God Almighty




Summary of 81.22

• Revelation Informs us that John was signified to receive the Revelation of Jesus Christ
• John, when speaking of himself, uses the genitive case personal pronoun “humon”, or your, in conjunction to “sugkoinonos”, or companion, of Jesus Christ
• John is “your companion”
• John is the companion of Jesus Christ
• 81.22 couples to 81.21 (which just finished informing us that the Lamb, who occupies the Throne, is obeyed there as God), via the copulative conjunction “wa”
• 81.22 then goes on to inform us of “sahibukum”, or your companion (i.e. John); identical to Revelation
• The “companion”, spoken of in 81.22, is in relation to the “obeyed one” (i.e. the Lamb) who occupies the throne, as demonstrated in 81.20 & 81.21
• “Sahibukum” occurs twice in the Koran, in sura 81 & in sura 53 (sura 81 near the end & sura 53 at the beginning); in both cases it is directly referencing the author of Revelation, John – which is unmistakable by the material contained within the sura itself
• It is interesting that in both of these cases, the authors of the Koran make a special note to tell the reader that he is in his right mind – yet another confirmation to the validity of the Book of Revelation material
• The authors of the Koran hold high regard for the Biblical Book of Revelation, which is a message from Jesus Christ, as written down by John, His companion. The authors of the Koran even told us of their source.




Summary of 81.23

• Revelation Informs us that John “eido”, or saw with his eyes, the mighty angel coming down out of the “ouranos”, or heaven
• 81.23, which is a continuation of 81.22 via the copulative conjunction “wa”(and), informs us of what “raa”, or, he saw – as referring to John
• 81.23 informs us that His (i.e. the Lamb’s) companion (i.e. John) saw “hu”, or him (i.e. the Mighty Angel)
• He saw him
• Parallel statements exist in sura 53 regarding what the companion (i.e. John) sees
• 81.23 identifies this sighting as “bi”, on account of “alofuqi”, or the heavens - just as stated in Revelation
• 81.23 ends with the proclamation of “almubeeni” which means “distinct, as though separate from others; and thus, apparent, manifest, evident, clear, plain, or perspicuous
• Amazingly, every single Koranic occurrence of “almubeeni” is direct reference to “kitabi”
• “Kitabi is defined as “the written Revelation from above”
• The significance of this cannot be overlooked as the authors of the Koran are telling us of the utmost importance of the written and revealed scripture(s) that existed before the Koran was even penned – and, of which, was the archetype of the Koranic opus itself

{With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.} Who is that? Of course it depends on what it had been said before.

It is Jesus.

Then the Quran said,"your companion” Was Jesus the companion of the people in this time?! For Christian’s debaters the answer will be “yes why not”?

John is “your companion”.

Then on the next verse Quran said, {he saw him in the clear horizen} did you see the term "AND"?

Open your eyes and read the text…


وَلَقَدْ رَءاهُ بِالْأُفُقِ الْمُبِينِ

Walaqad raahu bialofuqi almubeeni

81.23 And certainly he saw him on account of the heavens, the perspicuous.



Please tell us that you see “wa” (AND) at the beginning of this ayah…

If the people here speak Arabic, they will not have a problem at all, but, anyways,

Oh brother…

*The first verse talked about our prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him)

{most honourable Messenger} means Our prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him)

Dead wrong.

It refers to Jesus, as already demonstrated.

*Then in turned to talk about the Angel whom took him in his trip (Isra and Merj)

{Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne,} ,
I am not going to comment, I will let the man who translated this verse ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI explains it for us:
{Not only was the bringer of the Revelation, Gabriel, an honourable Messenger, incapable of deceit, but he had, in the angelic kingdom, rank and authority before Allah's Throne}.
You can buy his translation to check that yourself before you just argue. So, he meant by {Lord of the Throne}, God's throne. He was the person who made the translation besides the explanation.

Dead wrong again.

Islam’s “prophet” occupies the Throne with God?!

It refers to Jesus, as already demonstrated.

*Then the Surah returned back again to talk about our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him)

{With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.} This refers to our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him). The people of our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him) used to call him “The honest and the faithful" before his prophecy. Then they called him lair after it. So, Allah reminds them and be a witness to his prophecy.

Dead wrong again.

It refers to Jesus, as already demonstrated.

*Still talks about our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him)

{And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed;} This refers to our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him) Because of his people (Qurish) said he is a mad man. So, God explains for them that he is not a mad man. And remind them that he their companion, and if he was a mad man, they would discovered that before his prophecy.

Dead wrong again.

It refers to Jesus, as already demonstrated.

You cannot shoe-horn your “prophet” into this sura.

He is never mentioned at all.

Period.

This sura revolves around proclaiming Jesus as God Almighty.

and these are the verses in Arabic for whom may it concern:

Quran. 81:19-23[/b]
(19)إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ
(20)ذِي قُوَّةٍ عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ مَكِينٍ
(21)مُطَاعٍ ثَمَّ أَمِينٍ
(22)وَمَا صَاحِبُكُمْ بِمَجْنُونٍ

And that is how our prophet's friends understand it. And that is how all the Ealier and recent Muslims understand it,

Tafsir Ibn Kather

" ذِي قُوَّة " كَقَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى " عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيد الْقُوَى ذُو مِرَّة " أَيْ شَدِيد الْخَلْق شَدِيد الْبَطْش وَالْفِعْل " عِنْد ذِي الْعَرْش مَكِين " أَيْ لَهُ مَكَانَة عِنْد اللَّه عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَمَنْزِلَة رَفِيعَة قَالَ أَبُو صَالِح فِي قَوْله تَعَالَى " عِنْد ذِي الْعَرْش مَكِين " قَالَ جِبْرِيل يَدْخُل فِي سَبْعِينَ حِجَابًا مِنْ نُور بِغَيْرِ إِذْن .

Tafsir El-Tabari

وَقَوْله : { ذِي قُوَّة عِنْد ذِي الْعَرْش مَكِين } يَقُول تَعَالَى ذِكْره : ذِي قُوَّة , يَعْنِي جِبْرَائِيل عَلَى مَا كُلِّفَ مِنْ أَمْر غَيْر عَاجِز { عِنْد ذِي الْعَرْش مَكِين } يَقُول : هُوَ مَكِين عِنْد رَبّ الْعَرْش الْعَظِيم .

Tafsir El-Kortobi

ذِي قُوَّةٍ
مَنْ جَعَلَهُ جِبْرِيل فَقُوَّته ظَاهِرَة فَرَوَى الضَّحَّاك عَنْ اِبْن عَبَّاس قَالَ : مِنْ قُوَّته قَلْعُهُ مَدَائِن قَوْم لُوط بِقَوَادِم جَنَاحِهِ .

عِنْدَ ذِي الْعَرْشِ
أَيْ عِنْد اللَّه جَلَّ ثَنَاؤُهُ

مَكِينٍ
أَيْ ذِي مَنْزِلَة وَمَكَانَة ; فَرُوِيَ عَنْ أَبِي صَالِح قَالَ : يَدْخُلُ سَبْعِينَ سُرَادِقًا بِغَيْرِ إِذْن .

You have just demonstrated that tafsirs are a complete and utter waste of time.

They are little more than the authors unreferenced opinion on the ayahs in question.

Where are the resources that the authors used for their tafsirs?

They are non-existent.

Ever wonder why they do not reference their sources…?

In my trip to know the Bible , I got seven different versions here plus twenty versions on CD from other different languages. Plus the other forteen Gospels , Gnostic Gospels. Plus The Complete Dead See Scrolls, plus...

And I wonder how can people talk about Islam from their own mind.

And for the funny Guy who mock about kissing the black Stone.

Please be honest with yourself then answer me.

Which one is easier and acceptable for the human being?

Be honest with yourself and start some serious study of the book that you are entrusting your eternal soul towards.

As of right now, Islam has you totally under its control and you are blind to see that sura 81 has zero to do with your so called “prophet”….but has everything to do with the Biblical Jesus as portrayed as God Almighty.



Obey your Koran…

[Kai Hagbard]

Muslim gladiator wrote:

Please be honest with yourself then answer me.

Which one is easier and acceptable for the human being?

Kissing a a stone while u know it is just a stone, which means it can not help u or hurt u.

Kai replies:

It is certainly easy to kiss a stone and give it honour, but why? My point was originally, that the kissing of stone in the ancient society was a normality and was a trend in idolworship.

Muslim gladiator wrote:

But u just kiss it because your prophet told u that it came from the Heaven.

Kai replies:

I detect two problems here:

1. Your prophet permits and even encouraged you to engage in practices which originally were pagan!
Did you ever ask yourself why? If his intention was to purify the previous religions and exclude all idolatry why did he retain this particular thing?

2. Does that mean your religion depends upon the sayings and acts of a mere human being rather than the word of God?

If you are often the opinion that Christians celebrate a pagan festival such as Christmas it becomes a matter of interest that Jesus never inaugurated Christmas, neither did he buy a Christmas tree.

In contrast the prophet of Islam held on to the previous pagan practices and secured their place in the religion of Islam.

Should this not make you think?

Muslim gladiator wrote:

Or Drink a wine while u r sure it is a blood of God

Kai replies:

Where in the Bible does it even indicate that we drink the blood of God, could you please elaborate on this.

Muslim gladiator wrote:

and eat piece of beard while u r sure, it the body of God.

Kai replies:

Where in the Bible are Christians told to eat beard?

If you mean bread, where in the Bible does it say that the bread is the body of God?

[Aineo]

Our Muslim members are equating Catholicism with Biblical Christianity. Might be they need a good course in how to study and understand God's word, the Bible instead of assuming they know what we believe.

[John 10:10]

Jesus declared these words,

John 14,

15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 16,

13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

The Bible cannot be understood as one understands any other book. These Scriptures - as declared by Jesus - reveal that the Spirit of God will come to reside inside the lives of God's children. Then the Spirit of God takes the things (words) of Jesus and discloses them to those who are His children.

Do any Muslims say that they are the children of God according to John 1:12-13,

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

[MuslimGladiator]

Peace be upon who follows the right way,

First of all I hope people here can understand that I am a married man. I have my own life too. No one will give me money to write these articles expects God and it is enough for me. Islam does not ask me to just sit at my apartment and ask people to give me money.
But It asks me to give everything its right and interest. My prayers have interest of my life, my wife has an interest of my life and my work and rest have an interest of my life. It is an introduction for the people here who think that that person have nothing else to do expect being on the computer and the internet. In Islam work is a worship.

Apple Pie said,

Make sure that you “google” some good material for these pressing questions, complete with verifiable references

It seems to me that you have a problem with the recent world materials or may be with the science itself. You remind me when the Roman Catholic Church accused Galileo (1564 - 1642) with heresy because of his theory about the earth and the sun because it is against what have been written in the Bible. I think the sons of Roman Catholic Church and the enemies for the modern science still alive.

Compare what the Roman Catholic Church depended on to refuse Galileo's theory

Ecclesiastes 1:4(King James Version)
{One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.}

To what the Quran (which according to your theory recopied from the Bible or some men made it)

Surah 89: 21 The translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthal
{Nay, but when the earth is ground to atoms, grinding, grinding,}

Which means the earth will be destroyed finally and it will not remians forever. Now any ten years old child knows that.

And Surah 71: 16 The translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthal
{And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?}

And as a matter of fact the lamp is always the source that gives the light. And modern science tells us the same thing; the source of the light for the moon is the Sun. Because of the reflection of the sun’s rays on the moon’s surface.

Or ,Surah 36: 40 The translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthal
{It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.}

Have you ever heard the term "orbit" before in any Holy Book? Have anyone in the time of our prophet known that the moon and the sun float in an orbit? Do not we use the same words exactly now in our life? Compare what is in the Quran to what is inside the Bible.

Note: Orbit, in Arabic Manuscript is "Falak" “فَلَكٍ”. And it is a right translation for the word "Falak" “فَلَكٍ”

Note: Pickthall is a converted Muslim, and he made this translation to the Quran from more than 70 years ago which means before the USA and Russia trips to the space. For more about him you can check these links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pickthall

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/bmh/BMM-AH ... ll_bio.htm

You will learn (or perhaps you already know – hence your most obvious stalling) that there are no extant 1400+ year old Korans to be found anywhere in the entire world.

There are only fragments of copies dated to over a century AFTER Islam’s so-called prophet even was supposed to have existed in the first place.

Hence….your very first statement in this thread (which emanates from the propaganda machine called Islam), is completely without extant manuscript evidence…and it patently false…

Why you do not just wait and see? After my first article, no one discuss what was inside it? Do not you see? I waited for a while but when I came, everyone kept silent InshaAllah.

Secondly…once again….please be so kind as to show us your “prophet’s” name in ANY of the ayahs that you quoted from your intro article!

Shoe-horning in what was never written in the Arabic is hardly being honest…as you are already aware….hence, once again, your total avoidance of my repeat questions to you…

Also, we are not interested in the web-based Islamic propaganda that claims to have found your “prophet” mentioned in the Holy Bible.

Just stick to the questions that I posed to you.

No wiggle room.

Although what you have said is completely wrong and the fair scholars studied Islam knew that, I am not going to give you a quick reply. Wait and you will see inshaAllah. And if you do not like the Islamic site, take a plane to Turkey to see it yourself. There are some of the real Manuscripts at the museum of Chicago, USA. Sorry to break your heart, not copies but real manuscripts. If your do not trust in the scientists' opinions then, you do not belong to this world But, you are a very good grandson for the Roman Catholic Church.

Thanks for your consideration…..however, why wait….?

Unless, of course, you already know that we speak the truth and your entire premise for your position is toast.

Further, if you stall long enough, maybe we just might all forget about it….?

Have you read in your Holy Book before that you should be patient?

[b]Old Testament:
Proverbs 14:29 (New International Version - UK)[/b]
{A patient man has great understanding, but a quick-tempered man displays folly.}

New Testament:
Colossians 3:12 (New International Version - UK)
{Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.}

Islam is not the Koran.

The Koran is not Islam.

Really? From where did you get your smart speech?


Surah 6: 7 The translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthal
{Had we sent down unto thee (Muhammad) (actual) writing upon parchment, so that they could feel it with their hands, those who disbelieve would have said: This is naught else than mere magic.}

I have no interest in Islam.

Surah 2: 88 The translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthal
{And they say: Our hearts are hardened. Nay, but Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Little is that which they believe}

What interests me is the Biblical material that was used to construct your Koran.

I do not know what you are talking about? The Bible and the Quran differs like the black and the white, even if the idea about God.

The material that Islam has grotesquely contorted into meaning something never intended by the authors who penned your book of faith. [/quote]

Christians are so good in asking questions but they are very wear in answering questions?
Where are the answers for my questions?

Quote:
So Aineo, do you want to say that MORE THAN FORTY UNITED BIBLE SOCIETIES TRANSLATION CONSULTANTS AROUND THE WORLD PLUS the American Bible Society Board of Trustees's translators make an inaccurate version?
It seems you have chosen to ignore the purpose of the CEV, which was translated by one man, not 40 men


And I reply,

I think you have a problem of reading English Aineo. Here again the Introduction of the CEV. Do you know the meaning of the term "drafts"?
The introduction is very clear, it says:

The drafts in their earlier stages were sent for review and comment to a number of biblical scholars, theologians, and educators representing a wide variety of church traditions. In addition, drafts were sent for review and comment to all English-speaking Bible Societies and to MORE THAN FORTY UNITED BIBLE SOCIETIES TRANSLATION CONSULTANTS AROUND THE WORLD.

Do you know the meaning of the term "CONSULTANTS"? Did you see the phrase "MORE THAN FORTY UNITED BIBLE SOCIETIES TRANSLATION"?

Do you still think it is translated by one man?

Does that mean the introduction of the CEV tells the people a lie under American Bible Society Board?

Why did the KJV put the term "ten" in Deuteronomy 33:2 (King James Version), while CEV omitted the term? And New International Version omitted it too? While New American Standard Bible put it again? Who should we believe? Was the term "ten" in the main manuscripts or not? And if that what people do inside the Bible while we are in 2005, so what did they do with it before?

I am going to let you think and give me a very long article with no sense even for anyone who reads it.

By the way, do not forget to solve the problems of the Bible which led Mr.Bart Ehram (The chairman of the religious studies department at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill, USA.) to leave Christainity and became unbeliever? Remember Mr. Bart Ehram teaches these problems for his students in the collage. Plus he wrote a lot of books about this subject. He can speak many languages you can not speak, one of them Aramaic. Plus we have not here in this forum any defense for what he said about the Bible!Finally when you answer all of those questions, wait for my article. And do not miss the surprise please?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5052156

[John 10:10]

MuslimGladiator writes,

I do not know what you are talking about? The Bible and the Quran differs like the black and the white, even if the idea about God.

Yes, we are entirely in agreement here.

Muslims have no understanding of what Jesus was talking about in John 14:15-17, 16:13-15, and John in John 1:12-14.

[MuslimGladiator]

Peace be upon who follows the right way,

Kai said

Quote:
Or Drink a wine while u r sure it is a blood of God


Kai replies:

Where in the Bible does it even indicate that we drink the blood of God, could you please elaborate on this.

Muslim gladiator wrote:

Quote:
and eat piece of beard while u r sure, it the body of God.

I reply,
No comment expcet that,

John 6:47-59 (New International Version)

{47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.}

Another evidence

1 Corinthians 11:23-30 (New International Version)

{23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.}

Can you see these verses, can you see {the body and blood of the Lord}?

I really wonder, who of us are in need to take the courses? Let us leave the Muslim and Christians People in this Forum to reply.

Thanks God, I am a Muslim

[Apple Pie]

Apple Pie said,

You will learn (or perhaps you already know – hence your most obvious stalling) that there are no extant 1400+ year old Korans to be found anywhere in the entire world.

There are only fragments of copies dated to over a century AFTER Islam’s so-called prophet even was supposed to have existed in the first place.

Hence….your very first statement in this thread (which emanates from the propaganda machine called Islam), is completely without extant manuscript evidence…and it patently false…

Why you do not just wait and see? After my first article, no one discuss what was inside it? Do not you see? I waited for a while but when I came, everyone kept silent InshaAllah.

Translation:

You cannot back-up your opening statement in your thread.

Period.

Show us the 1400+ year old Koran that you claim exists…

Please stop making excuses.

Just accept the fact that none exist, and be done with it.

Quote:
Secondly…once again….please be so kind as to show us your “prophet’s” name in ANY of the ayahs that you quoted from your intro article!

Shoe-horning in what was never written in the Arabic is hardly being honest…as you are already aware….hence, once again, your total avoidance of my repeat questions to you…

Also, we are not interested in the web-based Islamic propaganda that claims to have found your “prophet” mentioned in the Holy Bible.

Just stick to the questions that I posed to you.

No wiggle room.


Although what you have said is completely wrong and the fair scholars studied Islam knew that, I am not going to give you a quick reply. Wait and you will see inshaAllah. And if you do not like the Islamic site, take a plane to Turkey to see it yourself. There are some of the real Manuscripts at the museum of Chicago, USA. Sorry to break your heart, not copies but real manuscripts. If your do not trust in the scientists' opinions then, you do not belong to this world But, you are a very good grandson for the Roman Catholic Church.

Translation:

You cannot show us where your “prophets” name appears in ANY of the ayahs that you quoted in your opening thread….because it does not exist.

Period.

If his “name” was listed in the text, then you would have easily been able to show us.

Just be honest and admit that you were wrong….again…

Quote:
Islam is not the Koran.

The Koran is not Islam.


Really? From where did you get your smart speech?


Surah 6: 7 The translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthal
{Had we sent down unto thee (Muhammad) (actual) writing upon parchment, so that they could feel it with their hands, those who disbelieve would have said: This is naught else than mere magic.}

There you go again.

I thought that you would have learned your mistakes from the previous three times….guess not.

Please show us where in the Arabic of this ayah, that your “prophets” name is mentioned….

وَلَوْ نَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْكَ كِتَابًا فِي قِرْطَاسٍ فَلَمَسُوهُ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ لَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِنْ هَـذَا إِلاَّ سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ

Further, show us ANY place in this entire ayah that his name is mentioned.

Please stop abrogating your own scriptures by inserting words that are not even there.

Quote:
What interests me is the Biblical material that was used to construct your Koran.


I do not know what you are talking about? The Bible and the Quran differs like the black and the white, even if the idea about God.

Wrong.

The authors who penned your book of faith specifically told us that they copied the previous Biblical scriptures.

If you understood classic Arabic then you would already know this.

[Aineo]

Muslims tell us Christians we take parts of the Qur'an out of context and then you do the same thing. Have you taken the time to read Jesus' explanation concerning His body and blood?

John 6:60-65

60 Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 "What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father." NAS

Simon Peter understood what Jesus was teaching:

John 6:68-69
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 "And we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." NAS

St. Ignatius of Antioch was probably the last Catholic early church father to fully understand what Jesus taught as he wrote:

VIII. I write not this, because I have learned that any such evil has happened among you, but I keep guard over you beforehand, since you are my beloved, and I foresee the snares of the devil. Take up then the armour of gentleness and renew yourselves in faith, which is the flesh of the Lord, and in love, which is the blood of Jesus Christ. Let no one among you have aught against his neighbour. Give not occasion to the heathen, that the godly multitude be not evil spoken of on account of a few foolish men. For, ' Woe unto him through whom My Name is idly blasphemed before some.'
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/s ... lians.html

[MuslimGladiator]

Peace upon who follows the right way,

Apple Pie said,

Quote:
You will learn (or perhaps you already know – hence your most obvious stalling) that there are no extant 1400+ year old Korans to be found anywhere in the entire world.

There are only fragments of copies dated to over a century AFTER Islam’s so-called prophet even was supposed to have existed in the first place.

Hence….your very first statement in this thread (which emanates from the propaganda machine called Islam), is completely without extant manuscript evidence…and it patently false…


Why you do not just wait and see? After my first article, no one discuss what was inside it? Do not you see? I waited for a while but when I came, everyone kept silent InshaAllah.


Translation:

You cannot back-up your opening statement in your thread.

Period.

Show us the 1400+ year old Koran that you claim exists…

Please stop making excuses.

Just accept the fact that none exist, and be done with it.




Quote:
Quote:
Secondly…once again….please be so kind as to show us your “prophet’s” name in ANY of the ayahs that you quoted from your intro article!

Shoe-horning in what was never written in the Arabic is hardly being honest…as you are already aware….hence, once again, your total avoidance of my repeat questions to you…

Also, we are not interested in the web-based Islamic propaganda that claims to have found your “prophet” mentioned in the Holy Bible.

Just stick to the questions that I posed to you.

No wiggle room.


Although what you have said is completely wrong and the fair scholars studied Islam knew that, I am not going to give you a quick reply. Wait and you will see inshaAllah. And if you do not like the Islamic site, take a plane to Turkey to see it yourself. There are some of the real Manuscripts at the museum of Chicago, USA. Sorry to break your heart, not copies but real manuscripts. If your do not trust in the scientists' opinions then, you do not belong to this world But, you are a very good grandson for the Roman Catholic Church.


Translation:

You cannot show us where your “prophets” name appears in ANY of the ayahs that you quoted in your opening thread….because it does not exist.

Period.

If his “name” was listed in the text, then you would have easily been able to show us.

Just be honest and admit that you were wrong….again…

It is so nice that you give questions and want answers. And when you got answers, you want more. But is so good that my questions which everyone had been already read it here still without any answer.

Anyways, when I was a little kid my parents told me not to repeat others words like a bird. So as you wanted my prophet name in the verse. Okay, whom do your intelllegnce be ment by this verse? Who was in this period and his people did not believe in him?

You alway assure to me and any foriegn student who study Arabic, how poor you are in Arabic. In Quran as a general rule, Using the Abstract Pronoun or the term "His messenger" always refer to our prophet "Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him" as it has no way esle.

and if you want examples, I can give you many and I want your intellgence replies us, who is ment by that?

[2:215] The Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthall

{They ask thee, (O Muhammad), what they shall spend. Say: that which ye spend for good (must go) to parents and near kindred and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer. And whatsoever good ye do, lo! Allah is Aware of it.}

Who translated this verse was an English. He was not Arabs. He raised in England. But when he study Arabic, he knew it.

Now, tell me, who is ment by the term "ask thee"?

I am sure you did not get it yet,

[2:219]The Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthall

{They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.}
Who they question? Who he was being asked? And who should answer?

Did you get it, more

[17:90-93] The Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthall
{[17:90]
And they say: We will not put faith in thee till thou cause a spring to gush forth from the earth for us;

[17:91]
Or thou have a garden of date-palms and grapes, and cause rivers to gush forth therein abundantly;

[17:92]
Or thou cause the heaven to fall upon us piecemeal, as thou hast pretended, or bring Allah and the angels as a warrant;

[17:93]
Or thou have a house of gold; or thou ascend up into heaven, and even then we will put no faith in thine ascension till thou bring down for us a book that we can read. Say (O Muhammad): My Lord be Glorified! Am I aught save a mortal messenger ?}

Did you see the starting and ending of this verses? Who they ask and who is being asked? Go and get a course in Arabic languange before you talk and thanks God, you always assure the idea which I always say, Christians never know what they are talking about?

For putting the name of our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him) between brackets because this is a translation for the MEANINGS. We put it for the people who does not understand Arabic to help them for understanding the meanings. People who read Quran in English can not understand Arabic rules.

Pickthall an English writter used the same way for his translation

IT is not a real Quran. I have said that before but I think you like to the man to repeat it for you many times.

I have said before, if a phrase was like that " I got a faith inside me"

and I translated it to be like that " I obtained a faith inside me"
or " I had a faith inside me" that means changing the real words. If the term was "obtained" then it should be written like how it is.

And I said before, KJV used to put an ENTIRE VERSE BETWEEN the BRACKETS in its translation too. To explain for the reader the meaings. Smiply it is an old English behavior in transltion

2 Samuel 1:18 (King James Version)

{18(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.) }

And from the New testament,

Mark 5:13 (King James Version)
{13And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.}

That is why Muslims say every night and every day, the Bible is just a translation and it is so hard even if for those whom translate it to understand it well. They have no manuscript.

The only difference between Islamic translation and Christian translation,
1- Muslims translate the meanings of the Quran. Christians translate the book itself.

2- Muslims are honest and they put the term which is not inside the main manuscript between brackets and then they put the real words of their manuscripts, while Christians put the words between brackets then say, it is the orginal manuscripts.

Last thing you should know about this issue,
Quaran is not like the Bible. In this Bible you will find those terms,
God said, Moses said, Jesus said, God said to Moses...

If God really said it, it should be like that : I say. But you always find that in the Bible, God said, " I say..."

In the Quran God use the term "I" , or faces His words directly for the believers or for our prophet or for unblievers,

You will never find in the word a term "Allah said to Mohamed, Mohamed said to Allah,

Look at this verse from the Bible,
Deuteronomy 33:4 (New International Version)

{4 the law that Moses gave us,
the possession of the assembly of Jacob.
What is really intersting in the Bible that Moses' death.}

For any one understand English he will know that somone else write this verse rather than God. It is impossible God say, {The law that Moses gave us}, it should be like that {the law that Moses gave to his people}. Moses did not give God the law, but God who gives the law to Moses.

Or this veses,

Deuteronomy 34 (New International Version)
{5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over. }

As any unbaised person speak English? How could Moses give them a verse like that? The verse give you an imagine that someone else descrips what is happened? The God will not say, Servant of the LORD died. If Moses gave them this verse, it should like that, "Servant of LORD will die". U should use the future tense rather than the past tense. The all the vesers use the past tense
{Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.}
If Moses gave them this verse during his life, he should use the future tense.

[b]To Aineo

Muslims tell us Christians we take parts of the Qur'an out of context and then you do the same thing. Have you taken the time to read Jesus' explanation concerning His body and blood?Quote:
John 6:60-65

60 Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 "What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father." NAS

I have not said before that Christiand drink a blood. What I have said exactly,

Or Drink a wine while u r sure it is a blood of God and eat piece of beard while u r sure, it the body of God.

I am not making up things. I got the verse from the Bible itself and I think you are protestant, so ask Cathlic and Captic then answer me.

John 6:47-59 (New International Version)

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life

55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink

Did you see this verse? It has not doubt? Do u know the meanings of the term "real"?

What you have stated after I will put here below for the readers,

John 6:60-70 (New International Version)

{60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)}


What I can understand from those verses two things,

1) Jesus added another idea. Like if you can not believe in me in a smiple thing I asked for it, so how can you believe in me in something bigger than that.

2) a Lot of his discplies did not accept the idea expect his friends.

By the way , DId U SEE THE BRACKETS INTO THE VERSE Apple Pie.

Oh, I will prove for you inshaAllah the second time that the differences between Quran's Manuscripts and Bible's Manuscripts? I will show you the more than 1400 years Quran.

By the way, You can call the Chicago Museum and tell them what you have discoverd. Tell them that they keep a papers belongs to 200 years after the Prophet (Mohamed Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon them). YOu can add that you find it the other manuscipts in Russia and Turkey are not right too. Tell them you prove for them that their Musems with all its scientists there are wrong and you are right?

And Finally, Will my questions and the professor Mr.Bart Ehram's questions find an answer?

It seems to me no.

[17:89] The Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthall
{And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur’an all kind of similitudes, but most of mankind refuse aught save disbelief.}

[Kai Hagbard]

Excellent Attempt gladiator

But John 6 does not speak about eating or drinking any literal body or blood. Where on earth did you get that idea?

If you want to act like an academic you would read the passage in its context and see that Jesus is the lifegiver.

And again let me ask you, where does it state that this is literally the body and blood of God?

[Aineo]

Or Drink a wine while u r sure it is a blood of God and eat piece of beard while u r sure, it the body of God.

I did address your assumption that all Christians view the bread and the cup as the body and blood of a god. The truth is not all professed Christians take this position as the Bible does not teach Jesus' flesh is the flesh of God. In John 6:60f Jesus explained the real meaning of His words.

[Apple Pie]

Peace upon who follows the right way,


It is so nice that you give questions and want answers. And when you got answers, you want more. But is so good that my questions which everyone had been already read it here still without any answer.

We are still patiently waiting for you to provide answers to your initial claims of a 1400+ year old Koran and your “prophets” name in the ayahs that you quoted.

Thus far, you just keep stalling, making up excuses, and interjecting red herrings as to why you cannot back up your statements.

You can do better that this.

Just answer the direct questions with direct answers.

Anyways, when I was a little kid my parents told me not to repeat others words like a bird. So as you wanted my prophet name in the verse. Okay, whom do your intelllegnce be ment by this verse? Who was in this period and his people did not believe in him?

Again….please produce the Arabic word for your “prophet” from the ayahs that you quoted.

We are really not interested in who you “think” the ayahs refer to.

You alway assure to me and any foriegn student who study Arabic, how poor you are in Arabic.

We understand the classic Arabic just fine, as is witnessed by our exegesis of sura 81….of which, you are completely unable to refute.

Further, how is it that you do not even comprehend the meaning of “wa”….?

In Quran as a general rule, Using the Abstract Pronoun or the term "His messenger" always refer to our prophet "Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him" as it has no way esle.

Dead wrong.

I have already demonstrated otherwise in sura 81…as just one example.

Unless, of course, your “prophet” that hold in such high regard, is actually Jesus Christ…..and you are unaware of this…?!

and if you want examples, I can give you many and I want your intellgence replies us, who is ment by that?

[2:215] The Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthall

{They ask thee, (O Muhammad), what they shall spend. Say: that which ye spend for good (must go) to parents and near kindred and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer. And whatsoever good ye do, lo! Allah is Aware of it.}

Who translated this verse was an English. He was not Arabs. He raised in England. But when he study Arabic, he knew it.

Now, tell me, who is ment by the term "ask thee"?

Show us the Arabic word translated as “thee”…..

I am sure you did not get it yet,

[2:219]The Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthall

{They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.}
Who they question? Who he was being asked? And who should answer?

Again, show us the Arabic word translated as “thee”…..

Did you get it, more

[17:90-93] The Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Pickthall
{[17:90]
And they say: We will not put faith in thee till thou cause a spring to gush forth from the earth for us;

[17:91]
Or thou have a garden of date-palms and grapes, and cause rivers to gush forth therein abundantly;

[17:92]
Or thou cause the heaven to fall upon us piecemeal, as thou hast pretended, or bring Allah and the angels as a warrant;

[17:93]
Or thou have a house of gold; or thou ascend up into heaven, and even then we will put no faith in thine ascension till thou bring down for us a book that we can read. Say (O Muhammad): My Lord be Glorified! Am I aught save a mortal messenger ?}

Again, where is your “prophet’s name in any of these examples.

Not only have you completely strayed from the original examples that were requested of you – but you are now digging yourself deeper into your own chaos – as you still cannot produce a single solitary ayah with your “prophets” name in it.

Did you see the starting and ending of this verses? Who they ask and who is being asked?

For the same reason that John is called the “companion”, in sura 81 & sura 53…it is copied Biblical material.

It does not apply to some fantasy “prophet” that you worship…

Go and get a course in Arabic languange before you talk and thanks God, you always assure the idea which I always say, Christians never know what they are talking about?

We already understand the classic Arabic in which your book of faith was penned.

You have amply demonstrated your ignorance of the Arabic language when you could not even recognize the simple copulative conjunction “wa”…

For putting the name of our prophet (Mercy and Peace of Allah be upon him) between brackets because this is a translation for the MEANINGS. We put it for the people who does not understand Arabic to help them for understanding the meanings. People who read Quran in English can not understand Arabic rules.

Wrong.

Words that are put in brackets are words that do not appear in the original text.

Period.

Please inform us why your “prophets” name does not appear in the Arabic…?

Pickthall an English writter used the same way for his translation

IT is not a real Quran. I have said that before but I think you like to the man to repeat it for you many times.

If “Pickthal” is not a “real Koran”, then why do you constantly quote from him….?!

You clearly never bothered to exegete the Arabic yourself….as this would take to much of your time…and then you might actually understand what you book of faith is actually stating…instead of letting Islam tell you what it says…

That is why Muslims say every night and every day, the Bible is just a translation and it is so hard even if for those whom translate it to understand it well. They have no manuscript.

Where is your 1400+ year-old ORIGINAL Koranic manuscript…?

Still can’t find it?

The only translation is the Koran – which flat-out tells us that it copied from the Holy Bible.

Your Koran converted Biblical Hebrew and Greek in to Arabic.

Period.

End of story.

Stop relying on the man-made Islamic machine to do your thinking for you…

The only difference between Islamic translation and Christian translation,
1- Muslims translate the meanings of the Quran. Christians translate the book itself.

Muslims have lost the true meanings of their book of faith, and have let the man-made Islamic machine run rampant for centuries of unbridled ignorance – totally changing many meanings penned by the authors of their book of faith.

2- Muslims are honest and they put the term which is not inside the main manuscript between brackets and then they put the real words of their manuscripts, while Christians put the words between brackets then say, it is the orginal manuscripts.

As you have amply demonstrated, the bracketed word of your “prophet” has not once appeared in the original Arabic…!

Thus….your assertion falls completely flat.

Please review your usage of the term “honest”…

Last thing you should know about this issue,
Quaran is not like the Bible.

The Koran is 99% Biblical material.

How can it not be like its source?

In this Bible you will find those terms,
God said, Moses said, Jesus said, God said to Moses...

If God really said it, it should be like that : I say. But you always find that in the Bible, God said, " I say..."

In the Quran God use the term "I" , or faces His words directly for the believers or for our prophet or for unblievers,

No different than its source…and….?

You will never find in the word a term "Allah said to Mohamed, Mohamed said to Allah,

Of course…..

Because your “prophet” is not mentioned in the Koran in the first place…!

You can see for yourself.

Why would this be stated if he never wrote or received the scriptures in the first place?

Open your eyes…

Another thing that you will never find in your book of faith….”I, Muhammad wrote this here Koran”….


Because it never, ever, occurred…

[John 10:10]

MuslimGladiator,

I will keep it simple this time.

Do any Muslims say that they are the children of God according to John 1:12-13?

But as many as received Him (Messiah Jesus), to them He (Messiah Jesus) gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His (Messiah Jesus) name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.