OSAS revisited

[Aineo]

Since some of our members think I closed a couple of OSAS threads only because I disagree with this doctrine I think we need to continue the debate. Therefore this thread is to debate OSAS, however there is one rule that will be adhered to or the offending post will be deleted in it entirety.

No personal attacks or dealing in personalities. If your only recourse or tactic is to go after the person disagreeing with you then rethink your strategy.

Scripture clearly teaches that some will fall away from the faith, in fact Paul writes that apostasy will precede the Lord’s return:

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.
NAS

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer. NAS

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
NAS


Revelation 3:1-6

He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3'Remember therefore what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. 4'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white; for they are worthy. 5'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels. 6'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. '
NAS

Scripture also states that any person who does become apostate can never be “renewed to repentance”.

Hebrews 6:1-8
6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we shall do, if God permits. 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. 7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. NAS


Hebrews 10:26-31

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
NAS


APOSTASY; APOSTATE
(a-pos'-ta-si), (a-pos'-tat) (he apostasia, "a standing away from"): I.e. a falling away, a withdrawal, a defection. Not found in the English Versions of the Bible, but used twice in the New Testament, in the Greek original, to express abandonment of the faith. Paul was falsely accused of teaching the Jews apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21); he predicted the great apostasy from Christianity, foretold by Jesus (Matthew 24:10-12) which would precede "the day of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 2:2). Apostasy, not in name but in fact, meets scathing rebuke in the Epistle of Jude, e.g. the apostasy of angels (Jude 6). Foretold, with warnings, as sure to abound in the latter days (1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 2 Peter 3:17). Causes of: persecution (Matthew 24:9-10); false teachers (Matthew 24:11); temptation (Luke 8:13); worldliness (2 Timothy 4:4); defective knowledge of Christ (1 John 2:19); moral lapse (Hebrews 6:4-6); forsaking worship and spiritual living (Hebrews 10:25-31); unbelief (Hebrews 3:12). Biblical examples: Saul (1 Samuel 15:11); Amaziah (2 Chronicles 25:14,27); many disciples (John 6:66); Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:19-20); Demas (2 Timothy 4:10). For further illustration see Deuteronomy 13:13; Zephaniah 1:4-6; Galatians 5:4; 2 Peter 2:20-21.

"Forsaking Jehovah" was the characteristic and oft-recurring sin of the chosen people, especially in their contact with idolatrous nations. It constituted their supreme national peril. The tendency appeared in their earliest history, as abundantly seen in the warnings and prohibitions of the laws of Moses (Exodus 20:3-4,23; Deuteronomy 6:14; 11:16). The fearful consequences of religious and moral apostasy appear in the curses pronounced against this sin, on Mount Ebal, by the representatives of six of the tribes of Israel, elected by Moses (Deuteronomy 27:13-26; 28:15-68). So wayward was the heart of Israel, even in the years immediately following the national emancipation, in the wilderness, that Joshua found it necessary to re-pledge the entire nation to a new fidelity to Yahweh and to their original covenant before they were permitted to enter the Promised Land (Joshua 24:1-28). Infidelity to this covenant blighted the nation's prospects and growth during the time of the Judges (Judges 2:11-15; 10:6,10,13; 1 Samuel 12:10). It was the cause of prolific and ever-increasing evil, civic and moral, from Solomon's day to the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. Many of the kings of the divided kingdom apostatized, leading the people, as in the case of Rehoboam, into the grossest forms of idolatry and immorality (1 Kings 14:22-24; 2 Chronicles 12:1). Conspicuous examples of such royal apostasy are Jeroboam (1 Kings 12:28-32); Ahab (1 Kings 16:30-33); Ahaziah (1 Kings 22:51-53); Jehoram (2 Chronicles 21:6,10,12-15); Ahaz (2 Chronicles 28:1-4); Manasseh (2 Chronicles 33:1-9); Amen (2 Chronicles 33:22). See IDOLATRY. Prophecy originated as a Divine and imperative protest against this historic tendency to defection from the religion of Yahweh.

In classical Greek, apostasy signified revolt from a military commander. In the roman catholic church it denotes abandonment of religious orders; renunciation of ecclesiastical authority; defection from the faith. The persecutions of the early Christian centuries forced many to deny Christian discipleship and to signify their apostasy by offering incense to a heathen deity or blaspheming the name of Christ. The emperor Julian, who probably never vitally embraced the Christian faith, is known in history as "the Apostate," having renounced Christianity for paganism soon after his accession to the throne.

An apostate's defection from the faith may be intellectual, as in the case of Ernst Haeckel, who, because of his materialistic philosophy, publicly and formally renounced Christianity and the church; or it may be moral and spiritual, as with Judas, who for filthy lucre's sake basely betrayed his Lord. See exhaustive articles on "Apostasy" in the Jewish Encyclopedia.
DWIGHT MALLORY PRATT
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

Your turn and using "they were never saved in the first place" is a cop out and not a valid response. One cannot "fall away" from something they never had to “fall away” from.

[On My Way]

What is the OSAS argument?
Onced saved you can sin and not have to worry about the fact you slipped?
If it is, I think that this part of Mathew 24 would put that to rest

13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.

Of course what I know about the meaning of scripture could barely fill a postage stamp, but I'm learning

[beads]

Therefore this thread is to debate OSAS, however there is one rule that will be adhered to or the offending post will be deleted in it entirety.

You mean two rules, right Aineo?

1. No personal attacks or dealing in personalities.
2. No "they weren't saved in the first place" arguments.

Scripture clearly teaches that some will fall away from the faith, in fact Paul writes that apostasy will precede the Lord’s return:

Agreed. I've never argued against the teaching that some will fall away. Who those people are is where we disagree. You believe they are Christians. I believe they..... dare I say it...... were never saved in the first place.

Scripture also states that any person who does become apostate can never be “renewed to repentance”.

Again, agreed. The issue here is not the teaching itself, but who the teaching applies to.

Your turn and using "they were never saved in the first place" is a cop out and not a valid response.

Since you started this thread (and not to mention the fact that you're a moderator), I don't have a problem with you setting the ground rules for what should and shouldn't be discussed here.

Where I do have a problem is with you saying "It is unacceptable for you to defend a teaching that you believe is supported by Scripture simply because I do not believe it is supported by Scripture." I reiterate what I said in the "predestination questions" thread: Why don't you just say what you mean? "We can address OSAS again if you are willing to agree with me. All those who disagree with me will either have their posts deleted or will be labeled as appealing to a copout explanation, all with a simple waving of my hand. "

[beads]

OnMyWay,

OSAS stands for "Once Saved, Always Saved". It is the believe that a true Christian cannot lose his salvation.

It does not mean you can sin and not worry about the consequences. This is a misconception that those who do not believe OSAS try to claim that OSASers believe in an effort to bolster their argument. But it is not true.

[On My Way]

Hi Beads
So I guess I really don't see what the debate is about.
Is there any websites that explain this? (ones that you may read)
or
What is crux of the debate?
or
How can you lose your salvation?
or
What is the otherside of the debates position as to how one can loose their salvation?

Thanks

[beads]

So I guess I really don't see what the debate is about.

Well, if you believe what Aineo says about "they were never truly saved in the first place" being a copout and not a valid response, then I can see why you'd be confused.

But the fact of the matter is that many people believe that OSAS is a Scripturally supported doctrine, and just because Aineo doesn't want to acknowledge the Scriptural basis for it, that does not make it an invalid response.

And even if it is an invalid response, isn't that what debate is about.... two sides defending their beliefs? If you don't allow one side to defend their beliefs, as invalid as you think they are, doesn't that kinda kill any chance for debate?

Is there any websites that explain this? (ones that you may read)

Do a google on "OSAS" or "eternal security" and you'll find a bunch of articles on the subject.

Or look ar a few of the threads on this forum that talk about it. Most of them have been locked at this point, so you won't be able to add anything new there, but if you want to continue ideas from those threads, I don't have a problem if you continue them here.

What is crux of the debate?

Well, one side (witness, Aineo) says that you can lose your salvation by walking away from Christ (commit apostacy). The other side (witness, me) says that you cannot lose your salvation at all, and that the people who apostacize were not truly born again to begin with.

What is the otherside of the debates position as to how one can loose their salvation?

Those that believe you can lose your salvation believe that you do so by committing apostacy, or by walking away from the faith in Christ that you once had. I don't think they think it's just a matter of committing a sin and losing salvation, rather to apostacize you must willfully deny Christ. Is that right, Aineo?

[Aineo]

You can't get past "they were never saved in the first place", which is simply begging the question of "falling away from the faith", which is why that response is not a real response but convenient attempt to get around what Scripture plainly states. Now if thisa is your only response then I suggest you do some real Bible study and refute what Jesus and Paul taught using the Bible and not manmade doctrines.

I started a thread on March 1, 2004 that not a single OSAS advocate has responded to.

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3671

I also notice that you seem to think that posting "Aineo says" is going advance your side of the debate, which is false since I am not the only person who does not accept OSAS, a doctrine first proposed by a man who was nothing more than a Protestant version of the Pope.

Now do you think you can really address the Bible and not Calvin or is that asking to much of a man who is also a moderator of this board?

[newseed]

Just how can they 'fall away' if 'they were never saved in the first place'?

or to put it...

If 'they were never saved in the first place', then how can they 'fall away'?

Providing Scriptures to show that one can still fall away even though he has never been saved in the first place would be most beneficial to this debate, if at all.

[Aineo]

Those that believe you can lose your salvation believe that you do so by committing apostacy, or by walking away from the faith in Christ that you once had. I don't think they think it's just a matter of committing a sin and losing salvation, rather to apostacize you must willfully deny Christ. Is that right, Aineo?

You are partially correct. Since as John wrote all sin:

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. NAS

In Hebrews we find:

Hebrews 10:26-31

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. NAS

Read verses 29-30 carefully, the writer is addressing members of the church and before you come back and state the writer is referring to non-bleivers remember what you posted concerning 2 Peter 3:9 on the thread dealing with predestination. Either Hebrews 10 is referring to born again Christians or 2 Peter 3:9 is not, you cannot pick and choose what applies to us and what does not based on manmade doctrines, which deny the inerrancy of Scripture.

Paul writes that the Holy Spirit explicitly says that some will fall away from the faith, which according to Revelation 21:7 means those that do not overcome (endure to the end) will spend eternity in the lake of fire. On another thread dealing with OSAS you quoted 1 John 5:4 in support of all that are saved will overcome, howere you left off the last phrase of that verse.

1 John 5:4

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. KJV

When you asked for Biblical examples of those who lost their faith you came back with "they were never saved in the first place" and without any Biblical proof to back up your statement.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace all...

Just my Opinion:

I dont think that the "falling away" from faith has anything to do with sinning.
We, as Christians, still sin daily.
Anyone who says he is free of sin, is not free of lies.

I believe that the "falling away" from faith will be from those who accept false prophets in the end. Many will come claming to be the Christ.

Those who know God's word will the know the true Lamb of God when He returns.

......
So, like I said. I dont believe falling away has to do with our sins; since we sin daily. I think it has to do with idoltry.
And it doesn't just have to do with accepting false prophets in the end.
During one's entire life, they can accept Jesus as their Savior. But in later years, turn to other gods, i.e money, porn, materialism, 1slam.

Just my opinion

He is Lord
Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Israel

[beads]

I started a thread on March 1, 2004 that not a single OSAS advocate has responded to.

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3671

I will take a look at that thread. It looks like that first post is pretty lengthy, though, so it may take a little while.

I also notice that you seem to think that posting "Aineo says" is going advance your side of the debate,

This is not the reason I am saying that. Did you not see where I also said "I say"? The reason I did this was for TruthSeeker-Joshua's sake. If he wants to see posts that explain your side of the OSAS debate, he should look at your posts. If he wants to see posts that explain my side of the OSAS debate, he should look at my posts.

Now if thisa is your only response then I suggest you do some real Bible study and refute what Jesus and Paul taught using the Bible and not manmade doctrines.... OSAS, a doctrine first proposed by a man who was nothing more than a Protestant version of the Pope...... Now do you think you can really address the Bible and not Calvin....

First, where's your proof that OSAS was first proposed by Calvin.

Second, I would appreciate it if you would not break your own rules for this thread. Your only rule for this thread was "no personal attacks and no dealing in generalities." Yet here you are attacking me by saying that I have done no real Bible study, but that I just spout off the teachings of another man. Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, I've studied the Bible for myself and came to some of the same conclusions as Calvin did?

If you're gonna make rules, at least abide by them, please.

Now do you think you can really address the Bible and not Calvin or is that asking to much of a man who is also a moderator of this board?

Is it too much for me to ask you to treat my arguments as addressing the Bible and not Calvin? I'm trying to address the issues, but all you do in response is is wave your hand and say "you're appealing to Calvin."

I'm more than happy to try to address the Bible, but addressing it from my side means that I'm gonna have to say things like "they were never saved in the first place" - an argument you won't even entertain, let alone refute.

Providing Scriptures to show that one can still fall away even though he has never been saved in the first place would be most beneficial to this debate, if at all.

An example would be the 10 spies sent out at Kadesh-barnea. They entered the Promised Land, saw the blessings God had for them there, and partook of the fruit of the land (compare that to the "those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, tasted God's good word and the powers of the coming age" of Heb 6:4-5), yet they fell away.

When you asked for Biblical examples of those who lost their faith you came back with "they were never saved in the first place" and without any Biblical proof to back up your statement.

Did you give me any Biblical proof that they were saved? No.

You concluded that they were saved and lost their faith based on what you believe the Bible says. Similarly, I concluded that they were not saved in the first place based on what I believe the Bible says.

[newseed]

You concluded that they were saved and lost their faith based on what you believe the Bible says. Similarly, I concluded that they were not saved in the first place based on what I believe the Bible says.

Lucifer had it all under God before the creation of man. He tasted it, touched it, smelled it, saw it and felt it and yet now a fallen angel.

Again, if they were never saved, then how can they fall away from something they never had?

[Aineo]

First of all interpreting my posts in an attempt to twist them to be personal attacks is simply your opinion. I asked for Biblical proof that "they were never saved in the first place" is an appropriate response for those who "fall away" were never being saved. Reread that part of my post since what I asked you to do was study the Bible and give me a Biblical response not a “they were never saved in the first place” since that phrase denies what Jesus and Paul taught as well as the very meaning of the word apostasy.

If you have taken the time to check just one of the Scripture of those who fell away from the faith you will find that Paul uses the phrase "shipwreck in regard to their faith”.

1 Timothy 1:18-20

18 This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may fight the good fight, 19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered over to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme. NAS

Since we are saved by grace through faith loss of faith equates to loss of salvation. Now if you disagree with this then show me where I am wrong, but show me in God’s word.

Second, the 10 spies who tasted the fruits of the promise land did not inherit anything in the Promised Land since they like the rest of the Israelites who rebelled against God died in the wilderness. The only spies that did enter the holy land were Joshua and Caleb so I fail to see how this applies to your side of this discussion.

Numbers 32:8-13
8 "This is what your fathers did when I sent them from Kadesh-barnea to see the land. 9 For when they went up to the valley of Eshcol and saw the land, they discouraged the sons of Israel so that they did not go into the land which the LORD had given them. 10 So the Lord's anger burned in that day, and He swore, saying, 11'None of the men who came up from Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob; for they did not follow Me fully, 12 except Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite and Joshua the son of Nun, for they have followed the LORD fully.' 13 "So the Lord's anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the LORD was destroyed. NAS

As to Calvin being the first to propose OSAS that is simply a matter of Christian history. Now if you want to show me I am wrong then please do so. Even a cursory study of the history of OSAS will bring you back to Calvin's 5 points. You will not find OSAS in Catholicism or any of the Orthodox faiths. I was raised Presbyterian, which was founded by Knox who was a student of Calvin. I did not learn much about the Holy Spirit and other Biblical teachings but I did lean a lot about Calvinism, which included he was the first to teach OSAS.

You concluded that they were saved and lost their faith based on what you believe the Bible says. Similarly, I concluded that they were not saved in the first place based on what I believe the Bible says.

Well lets see how a personal belief can lead to error when such belief is based on selected verses. There is a website http://www.whosoever.com that states gays are saved based on these and other verses:

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV

1 John 4:15

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. KJV

I think we can both agree that this belief is false and denies Biblical truth. BTW, I can’t tell you the number of professed gay Christians who appeal to OSAS as a get out of hell free card since they assert that they are among the “whosoever”.

[beads]

Quick replies (for lack of time):


newseed,

Lucifer was (is) an angel. Salvation does not apply to angels, so implying that he "fell away from the salvation he once had" is not correct.

-----------

Aineo,

I'll reply to your post in a little bit when I have more time.

[(Omega)]

Double Post.....

[(Omega)]

Hello Aineo!

The OBJECTIONS are given by an unknown OSAS advocate and the answers to these OBJECTIONS are given by Dan Corner, a Conditional Security adherent. My responses are given below Dans response to those Objections.

From:http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3671

http://www.thewayofthemaster.com/wotm_flash.html

____________________________________________________-
From:
Eternal Security Arguments and Proof Texts
Dan Corner


This refutation to unconditional eternal security (UES) would be incomplete if the primary proof texts and objections offered by the UES proponents were not dealt with and explained from Scripture. The following are additional objections that were not yet dealt with in this controversy. (Already explained were Jn. 6:64; Rom. 8:35-39; 2 Tim. 2:13 and 1 Jn. 2:19. Therefore, they will not be dealt with here.)

OBJECTION #1. Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of my hand," Jn. 10:28. Therefore, if, having received eternal life, we could lose it and perish, it would make Christ a liar.

"Notice a triple promise here concerning the security of God's sheep. First, Christ gives them 'eternal' life. Second, they shall 'never' perish, and third, neither shall any pluck them out of Christ's hand."(26)

ANSWER: Jn. 10:28 is a wonderful and true promise, but only as Jesus meant it to be understood! We must examine Jn. 10:27 carefully to understand who "them" and "they" are in verse 28 and what the Lord was saying. It reads, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they FOLLOW me." This is the only type of person, the one that meets these conditions, that will "NEVER PERISH," according to the next verse!]

Did you notice the words, "they follow me"? The word translated "follow" is a PRESENT INDICATIVE ACTIVE in the Greek, which asserts something which is occurring while the speaker is making the statement. In other words, as long as we remain faithful and CONTINUE to follow Jesus, He will, indeed, assure us that we will "never perish," v.28.

No such promise, however, is given here (or anywhere in the Bible) to one that would turn and start "to follow Satan" as Paul knew could and did happen (1 Tim. 5:15)! It clearly does NOT cover such. Some read into Jn. 10:28 the words, "under any circumstance" after the words "never perish," but they are NOT there! Jesus did NOT include them in his promise and neither should we!

1 Tim 5:15 is a gross misinterpretation, "Turned aside after Satan": refers to the younger widows who have rejected chaste living, propriety, and a proper second marriage, pursuing-in accord with Satan's wishes-a carnal, self-indulgent, self-willed life. The whole chapter deals with instructions concerning widows, there is nothing here that indicates or equates with the loss of Salvation. Does the true sheep of God continue to follow their shepherd? I will deal with this later within this post.

OBJECTION #2. Can you be "born again" again?

ANSWER: This is a rhetorical question that has confused some. To be "born again" is the same as getting saved or believing in Jesus. Therefore, if one stops believing in Jesus, then later starts believing again, he did indeed get saved again, as Rom. 11:23 declares. Remember also the Prodigal who became "alive again" (Lk. 15:24,32).

According to Dan Corner, a person can lose their salvation and regain it according to His interpretation of Lk 15:24,32.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches us that it is impossible for one who departs from His faith to be renewed back to repentance, that is to say that it is impossible to regain your salvation, so apparently Hebrew 6:4-6 cannot refer to a loss of Salvation to Dan. Furthermore the Parable of the Prodigal Son does not refer to someone who once had His salvation and then lost but is used to illustrate the salvation of the lost. NOTE: (Jesus' listeners were publicans and sinner [Lk 15:1]) NOT those who were saved. Furthermore lets look at the context of Luke 15:32:

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was (dead), and is (alive again); and was (lost), and is (found). (Luke 15:32)

The word "dead" (nekros) refers to the state of being spiritually dead in contrast to "alive again" (anazao) which refers to a restored life, and again in the context of that verse we also read that he was also "lost" (apollumi) which can refer to a state of spiritual ruin [Matt 10:39; 15:24, 18:11] which is parallel to being dead. In the same context being alive again is parallel to being "found" (heurisko) which refers to finding God or getting to know Him. You are born once physically and you are born once spiritually.

OBJECTION #3. Those that truly get saved will faithfully endure to the end and never follow another.

ANSWER: This was not true with Saul, Solomon, Judas, the unnamed disciples of Jn. 6:66 and many others! Furthermore, Jesus clearly taught that one could "believe for a while" then fall away or die (Lk. 8:13)! Paul similarly taught that one could "believe in vain" (1 Cor. 15:2) and fall "away from grace" (Gal. 5:4). Therefore, the wishful position of the UES proponent here is, again, refuted by the truth of Scripture.

Luke 18:13 does not refer to those who possessed saving faith but rather refers to shallow-hearted individuals who anon (at once) receive (outwardly) the message with joy, who had no root and were fruitless. Fruitless life is a sure sign of an "UNBELIEVER" who doesn’t have Christ within their hearts, Example:
- I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for (without me) ye can do nothing. (John 15:5) "Without me", meaning without Christ within us we are not able to produce fruits of the spirit. The branches of Matt 3:10 are those which did not produce fruit from the (Good Ground) and thus produced "Bad Fruit" which is then cast into the fire to be burned. The disciples of John 6:66 were not Jesus' true disciples and not true believers, Dan has excluded a verse vital to refuting His point, John 6:64! John 6:64 states "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him." That passage clearly states that Jesus knew "FROM THE BEGINNING" who would betray Him and who the "Unbelievers" would be. Furtheremore Peter says to the LORD in verse 69 "And (we believe and are sure) that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." Now lets take a look at 1 Cor 15:2 and examine the word "vain" which occurs 6 times in the 15th chapter alone. The word vain used here is (eikei), not retaining the Gospel will show that the Corinthians to have "believed in vain", that is "without effect". A temporary faith makes no appreciable difference in one's life because the Gospel fails to take effect. Gal 5:4 is translated "You will be severed from Christ, if you try to be justified by the law; you will forfeit the favor in God's eyes which Christ won for you" This does not teach the loss of Salvation which one earlier possessed. Rather it means that if the readers truly renounce grace through faith alone as the way of salvation, if they depend on legalism to secure divine favor, then they show that they never really knew God’s Grace in the first place.

OBJECTION #4. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life," Jn. 5:24. The verse says "will not be condemned." Therefore, one cannot lose it!

ANSWER: The word in Jn. 5:24 rendered "believes" is transliterated as PISTEUON and is also a PRESENT PARTICIPLE in the Greek. Therefore, the Lord is saying here that we must CONTINUOUSLY BE BELIEVING the Father, that is, his testimony about Jesus, which implies that Jesus alone is to be the focal point of our TRUST for our soul's salvation. See Matt. 17:5 cf. Jn. 14:6. We will never be condemned, as long as we keep this condition -- a continued 100% trusting in Jesus for our soul's salvation.

The present tense of believeth is focused on the moment the believer enters into his/her continuous faith. Furthermore John 5:24 also states that those who continuously believes in Him is passed (Perfect Tense) from death unto life, which literally means that the believer has definitively passed from death to life and at that moment possesses it.

OBJECTION #5. "The Bible Answer Man" is Hank Hanegraaff. He's on coast to coast radio, he can't be wrong! He wrote the following, "And remember, eternal life comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life. It begins at the moment of conversion and stretches on through the eons of time." (27)

ANSWER: Hank is right when he writes that eternal life (or salvation) "comes to the believer through faith in Christ" and "begins at the moment of conversion." Also, it DOES remain everlasting (or eternal) life. That can't change. However, this doesn't necessitate that we can't be lost after we receive the "gift" of eternal life. In other words, eternal life is the "gift" (Rom. 6:23). As long as we have the gift, we have eternal life. Moreover, as long as we have spiritual life, it is everlasting, but according to Scripture a person once saved can still "die" spiritually (Rom. 8:13) and miss the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:19-21)!

In regards to Romans 8:13, Rom. 7:5 states that those who live according to the flesh are unbelievers who are under the law. If we go back just a few verse to Romans 8:9:"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you". That verse clearly states that believers are not in the flesh but are led by the Spirit of God as opposed to Rom. 8:13 which states that those who live according to the flesh are unbelievers, thus we conclude that believers are not the ones being in the flesh but rather the unbelievers. Gal. 5:19-23 clearly makes the distinction between the "works of the flesh" with the "fruit of the spirit", the children of God or believers are not in the flesh as stated in Rom. 8:19, but in the Spirit.

OBJECTION #6. We are made sons of God, not put on probation!

ANSWER: Yes, it is true that we become a son of God at the point of salvation (Jn. 1:12). However, "We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly TILL THE END the confidence we had at first," Heb. 3:14. This verse is also true! Better than the word "probation" would be to say: according to Scripture, after salvation, we are sons of God with a free will and the potential of still not inheriting the kingdom of God, because of certain sins, false doctrine about salvation and disowning Christ during persecution.

"Hold fast until the end" There is a parallel to that verse found in Hebrews 3:6 which reads:
Hebrews 3:6 - But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Mark 4: 16-17 states that those who do not hold fast until the end are superficial believers, and 2 Peter 2:22, the very reason for the believers ability to endure to the end is his unperishable faith which they possess (1 Peter 1:7), unlike gold which perishes. I have demonstrated this in Dans response to Objection #3.

OBJECTION #7. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life," Jn. 3:16. Jesus said "shall not perish"!

ANSWER: The word "believe" is PRESENT PARTICIPLE again! Therefore, Jesus was promising only those that CONTINUE to BELIEVE on HIM the assurance that they "shall not perish." This verse does NOT cover others that just "believe for a while" then fall away, as Scripture mentions (Lk. 8:13). Remember, one can truly believe, but this doesn't mean he will always continue to believe on Jesus in the future!

I have explained the believers ability to believe continuously in Dans Objection of 6 and 3.

OBJECTION #8. I agree with Dave Hunt who wrote, "Salvation is the full pardon by grace from the penalty of all sin, past, present or future...."(28)

ANSWER: Dave Hunt has done an excellent job exposing and refuting false doctrine and various forms of subtle deceptions that plague the church. However, regarding this subject, we disagree with him.

Yes, we are saved by GRACE. However, the rest of this argument is contrasted by Scripture! See Peter's advice to Simon (Acts 8:22,23); Prov. 28:13 and John's teaching on this subject as cited in 1 Jn. 1:9. This is the Scriptural basis for getting forgiven AFTER initial salvation. At salvation, all sin to that point is forgiven and forgotten (Lk. 23:42,43; 18:9-14; Acts 10:43-48; Psa. 103:12). However, all sins afterwards committed are NOT automatically covered! If they were, then Rom. 8:13; Gal. 5:19-21; etc. would be senseless! Furthermore, Jesus clearly taught that our future sins would not be automatically forgiven in Matt. 6:14,15!

I believe that Dan is misunderstanding Dave Hunts interpretation of full pardon by Grace from the penalty of all sin, past, present and future. The scriptures teaches us that If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Conviction is a sign that the Holy Spirit is present within us, this conviction brings us to repentance and a plea for forgiveness each time we sin, whether past, present or future. The Blood of Christ is the initial remedy for our sins and continues to cleanse us from sin and its presence of power through prayers as we ask to be forgiven, past present and future.

OBJECTION #9. "...love for the one who saved us is the greatest and only acceptable motive for living a holy life...."(29)

ANSWER: FEAR, like love, is indeed a legitimate motive or reason for serving God! Jesus told the Twelve when they were about to go out: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, BE AFRAID of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Hell," Matt. 10:28. Furthermore, Paul wrote: "...they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either," Rom. 11:20,21. Finally, remember Psa. 2:11, "Serve the Lord with FEAR and rejoice with trembling."

I would have to agree with Dan Corner on this objection, although this objection does not refute the Doctrine of Eternal Security.

OBJECTION #10. God wouldn't save a person then later send him to Hell.

ANSWER: This was not the case for Judas and Saul, the king of Israel! The real truth is God would never force a person to continue to follow Jesus even after his faith in Jesus produced salvation. Read and ponder Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

Furthermore, this objection is like saying, God would never give His Spirit to later take it away from a person. This, however, clearly wasn't the case for Saul (1 Sam. 16:14).

When was Saul or Judas ever saved? As I have stated in Dan Corners refutation to Objection #3 that Judas was among the unbelievers who Jesus knew beforehand would betray Him an even referred to them explicitly as "UNBELIEVERS" (believed not). Furthermore making a comparison between King Saul and a believer of today is a largely askew in the sense that the Holy Spirit did not reside permanently within Saul and the Old Testament Saints as they do today (Eph, 4:30), examples:

• And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly. (1 Samuel 11:6)
• But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. (1 Samuel 16:14)
• And he (Saul) went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. (1 Samuel 19:23)

OBJECTION #11. Our fellowship with God can suffer, but never one's relationship as a son.

ANSWER: As "adopted" sons (Eph. 1:5), we can fall away (Lk. 8:13), lose our inheritance of the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:21), be disowned by Christ (Matt. 10:33), have our name blotted from the book of life (Rev. 3:5), have our share in the tree of life and New Jerusalem taken away (Rev. 22:19), "DIE" because we chose to live according to the sinful nature (Rom. 8:13) and as the Prodigal SON, become "dead" and "lost" (Lk. 15:24)! This obviously describes a much greater loss than just our fellowship with God (or rewards), as some would wishfully like us to believe!

I have already commented on (Lk. 8:13) on Dans refutation to Objection #3 and (Gal 5:21) never once states that those who are being led by the flesh are those who have previously obtained salvation, but on the contrary it teaches us that those who are led by the flesh are unbelievers who are under the law (Rom. 7:5) and are not those who are led by the Spirit (Rom 8:19) who are the sons of God. Romans 8:1 states: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Those who are spiritually minded are controlled by the Holy Spirit (WHICH ARE IN CHRIST) whereas those who are carnally minded have their life dominated by the sin nature. Verse 9 of Romans 8 states that any who lack the spirit are unsaved and verse 10 states that if this spirit resides within us then we are dead to the sinful nature, now back to verse 9 which states that if the spirit of God does not reside within the person than he is unregenerated, thus he is "none of this" and therefore is not led by the Spirit but by the flesh making him/her an unbeliever. (Matt 10:33) being disowned by Jesus according to Dan Corner, here is the verse in its entirety:
"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

The warning whosoever shall deny me is a comprehensive historical aorist tense, referring not to one moment of denial such as in the case of Peter's, but to an entire lifelong resistance to Christ. It is the refusal to confess Christ at all which eliminates one from being a true follower of Jesus Christ. In (Rev 3:5, can a genuine believe have their name blotted out of the Book of Life? According to 1 John 5:4 it reads "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." "Overcometh the world" is in the present tense which is indicating that the believer is continually overcoming, in other words the believer will continuously overcomes (1 John 5:5). Now on to (Rev 22:19), according to Dan, the believer can lose their part in the share of the tree of life and be banned from the Holy City. Anyone who willfully distorts the message of the Book of Revelation shows himself not to be a genuine believer (obviously) and thus will not participate in eternal life or the blessings of the New Jerusalem.

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John 8:47)

And in regards to (Rom. 8:13), I have already answered that in Dans refutation to Objection #5.

OBJECTION #12. Those that are saved have an inheritance that can "never perish, spoil or fade -- kept in heaven" for us (1 Pet. 1:3,4).

ANSWER: This wonderful passage of Scripture only describes our inheritance as Christians. It doesn't say that we cannot annul it through our after-conversion activities and/or beliefs! In fact, just the opposite was repeatedly declared by Paul (Gal. 5:21; 1 Cor. 6:9,10; 15:2; etc.)

This has already been answered on Dans refutation to Objection #5.

OBJECTION #13. Jesus prayed to the Father that He would protect His disciples and that none would be lost. Certainly, the Father heard Jesus' prayer!

ANSWER: The verse referred to is from John 17. This, however, is not a certainty of remaining saved! In the very same prayer, Jesus also prayed for "complete unity" among the believers (Jn. 17:24). Clearly, from 1 Cor. 1:10-13, this didn't occur. Therefore, there must be some unnamed, outside factor to consider here. Remember, it was Jesus Himself who told His disciples that they would have to "stand firm to the end to be saved" on more than one occasion (Matt. 10:22; 24:13) and to "REMAIN" in Him or be thrown into the fire (Jn. 15:4-6)! Also, according to Rom. 8:34, Jesus is now praying for us from the right hand of God. This, however, doesn't mean that His servants cannot be deceived by false teachers, grow lukewarm, fall into impurity, etc. His powerful prayers and our free will work together. Our free will can, however, override His incredibly powerful prayers and His will for us. This is also evident from the following: It is His will that none should perish (2 Pet. 3:9), yet most will perish (Matt. 7:13,14), in spite of His will! This is also the answer for the UES proponent who argues from Heb. 7:25 or Rom. 8:34 regarding Jesus' prayers for us now.

The Unity found in (Jn. 17:22) NOT 24, refers to the Eternal State of the Jesus' followers, and is it possible that Jesus' request to His Father somehow went unanswered according to 1 Cor. 1:10-13? Gods timing usually and does not have to conform to that of mans. Furthermore Jesus Himself says that His Father hears Him "ALWAYS" (John 11:42) since He does the will of His Father. Furthermore it is noted that this is clearly a "Prayer" on behalf of Jesus Himself, and not a will or desire. "Endureth to the end shall be saved" is a promise of perseverance, not a teaching that Salvation may be lost. Rather, it indicates that those who are truly saved will indeed endure to the end as I have pointed out in Dans refutations to Objection #3 and 6. Our free will can indeed cannot override the prayers of Jesus, but His will in our lives! Jesus' prayers were always aligned with Gods ultimate and divine purpose before the foundation of the world due to Gods foreknowledge, however His will is not always in accordance with mans free-will. In addition to that, the scriptures read that "But as many as received, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12,13), this passage does not teach that being born of God is not a process but rather a state reached upon initial salvation. The words "As received" is in the indicative aorist tense, not receiving Him in a process but rather we have already received Christ. "To them gave He the power" is also in the indicative aorist tense, in other words it is stating that God gave us the power to become sons of God, and not a process. "To become the sons-aorist tense"(even to them that believe) of God is in the present tense indicating believers possess a continuous faith and belief in Him and not a continual process.

OBJECTION #14. "...if salvation from the penalty of breaking God's laws cannot be earned by good deeds, then it CANNOT BE LOST BY BAD DEEDS" (30) (emphasis his, but capitalized words are italicized in original).

ANSWER: This type of statement-conclusion must be carefully examined. Yes, it is true that we don't gain our salvation by good deeds, according to Eph. 2:8,9; Tit. 3:5; 2 Tim. 1:9 and Rom. 4:4-6. However, the conclusion is FALSE, according to MANY Scriptural passages. See 1 Cor. 6:9,10 and Gal. 5:19-21 just to mention two. Remember also the many other references cited in this study. (Also, let's call it "sin" not just "bad deeds.")

Please note that sins such as worry and unthankfulness are not listed anywhere in Scripture as being spiritually lethal, as drunkenness, greed, sexual immorality, idolatry, slander and lying are!

(1 Cor. 6:9-10) states the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God: There were evidently some in the Corinthian assembly who had professed Christianity as a system of doctrine, but not as a rule of life. Paul warns that this is a fatal mistake. Nobody who can allow himself the indulgence of known sin in his life can be saved. This passage proves that both James and Paul are basically in agreement, they affirm that genuine faith produces good works (Eph. 2:8-10), and that the absence of Good works is an indication of the absence of saving faith (James 2:14-26). Gal. 5:19-21 has already been discussed in Dans response to Objection # 11. What Dan Corner is missing in the passages which seemingly refer to Christians living a sinful life and losing their Salvation is the "Core" of the believer, i.e. they possesses Saving Faith or faith which is also unperishable.

OBJECTION #15. A child cannot become unborn, and the relationship of a father and a child cannot be ended. Once a son, always a son.

ANSWER: This argument is based on natural fact, then applied to the spiritual, which doesn't always hold up as truth. (UES adherents frequently make this kind of mistake!) This type of error can be demonstrated by the following facts: Before we became Christians, we were all "children of the devil" (Acts 13:10; 1 Jn. 3:10) and "sons of the evil one" (Matt. 13:38). In other words, the devil was our spiritual father (Jn. 8:44). However, this spiritual father-child relationship changed at the point of salvation, according to Scripture! Aren't you glad that spiritual father-child relationships CAN be ended?

Furthermore, many UES adherents who know the fallacy of the deification of man teaching would be quick to reject one of their arguments which is, likewise, based on natural fact then applied to the spiritual! That faulty argument put forth by Earl Paulk is: "Dogs have puppies and cats have kittens, so God has little gods."(31) Therefore, this type of reasoning must be carefully compared with Scripture.

I'm not sure who was the actual person making these objections, because they are apparently not well thought out and examined in the light of scripture. There is indeed a significant contrast between the natural and the spiritual. However what Dan fails to realize is that "he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit - (1 Cor 6:17)" The words "he that is joined"(kollao) is in the present tense indicating that this person is joined (fastened together firmly), he is already joined to the LORD in spirit. One spirit is suggesting the highest possible Unity between the LORD and the believer, i.e., the sheep can not wander off, the branch cannot be severed from the vine and the son cannot be alienated from the Father, basically, nothing can separate them!!! Furthermore there are sizeable differences between the restraining power of the devil and that of God, example:

Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. (Matthew 12:29)

In addition, human beings in their natural state and sinful natures do not have Satan abiding within them, but rather live according to the carnal and worldly desires of the devil making them children or sons of the evil one, that is they have the (same nature). With believers, God is united with us and makes his abode within our hearts and cannot be separated as I have stated above, the believer who is united or One with the LORD in spirit is guided by the spirit and does not live his life according to the flesh, since the spirit of God which is joined with Him also does not.

OBJECTION #16. "...I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day," (2 Tim. 1:12). The only way Paul could have made this statement for himself was if he believed in unconditional eternal security.

ANSWER: Paul certainly knew that a "know-so" salvation existed and that he had it. However, we can assume that Paul believed personally the things he wrote to others. This means that Paul knew his "know-so" salvation at the moment could be negated in the future, as already cited.

Furthermore, Paul obviously believed God would guard or keep him. However, he also knew about the human responsibility for this: "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" (2 Tim. 4:7). Here we see Paul believed in human responsibility too.

I already stated previously how the believer possesses unperishable faith and that this is continuous on the believers life on the fact that God has given him this power, thus (2 Tim. 1:12) proves true in the sense that God is able to preserve us until that day. Paul was persuaded (peitho), the perfect tense indicates that he (Paul) was persuaded in the past and remains so now, that God is able to keep or the assurance of Salvation which is committed to him against that day.

OBJECTION #17. A real Christian won't ever be condemned as Romans 8:1 reads, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...."

ANSWER: This "no condemnation" mentioned in Rom. 8:1 refers ONLY to those that are in Christ Jesus! This can only be the case if we continue in the faith, for it's definitely possible NOT to remain in the Son (Jn. 15:6; 1 Jn. 2:24; 2 Jn. 9). Furthermore, the K. J. V. renders the "no condemnation" as conditional for only the ones who "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"!

Case in point in regards to the believer who is founded upon unwavering faith as I have previously stated in my past responses, those who are "In Christ" remain in the Son! Dan has misconstrued (Jn. 15:6) in to meaning that a believer can be severed from Christ and thus lose his salvation, I have explained how his interpretation does not hold up in his response to Objections #3 and 15. The very core of the believer is unwavering, unperishable faith, he is united with the LORD in spirit, he abides as a branch which brings forth fruit, he is led by the spirit of God and not in the flesh and his faith is continual, thus 1 Jn 2:24 and 2 Jn. 9 proves that those who do not abide in Christ are not in Christ but are unfruitful, unbelieving, self-professed Christians who do not possess saving faith, all this have been reinstated and detailed many times over in my past responses.

OBJECTION #18. Phil. 1:6 declares, "Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." This proves unconditional eternal security.

ANSWER: The New Testament declares this promise to be true ONLY in the lives of those who meet the conditions stated elsewhere in Scripture as in Matt. 10:22; Rom. 8:13; Gal. 6:8; etc.

Also, Phil. 1:6 needs to be understood in the light of the context of that book. Phil. 2:12 declares that this church group "always obeyed" in Paul's presence. Though not perfect, this was not a lukewarm, worldly church group, for not only did they "always obey," they were enduring the same types of struggles that Paul had (1:29,30), and they alone helped support Paul financially from the very beginning and were still doing so as this epistle was being written (4:14-16).

Besides the context of the book, the immediate context of the verse CLEARLY shows WHY Paul was so "confident," as he states in verse 6, which is really the whole basis of this favorite UES argument. Verse 7 reads, "It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart...." Note: The basis of the "confidence" mentioned in verse 6 was NOT a guaranteed eternal security which all Christians have in common! The basis of Paul's "confidence" mentioned in verse 6 was that he had them "IN HIS HEART" -- meaning they would be aided in their personal struggles by his heart felt prayers cited in verses 9-11. Note the same phrase mentioned in verse 6, "until the day of Christ Jesus" is repeated in verse 10 as "until the day of Christ," which connects Paul's "confidence" for them to his prayers for them.

Actually Dans interpretation of verse 7 of Phi. 1:7 is incorrect, the expression "I HAVE YOU IN MY HEART" is an idiom which means "I LOVE YOU", NOT meaning they would be aide in their personal struggles by his prayers in verses 9-11. Paul is convinced that the work of grace that God began in the Philippians at conversion will be divinely continued until the day of Jesus Christ. That is, the LORD will keep working in these believers until Jesus returns to earth, at which point He will finish His work, bringing it to completion, this is speaking of the Christians eternal security. God had a purpose in view when He began His saving work in the Philippians, and that purpose will neither be abandoned nor unrealized.

OBJECTION #19. Samson was sexually immoral and he's mentioned as a hero in Hebrews 11. Therefore, one can be sexually immoral, like him, and be saved.

ANSWER: It's true that Samson is mentioned in Heb. 11:32, and why he was included in this chapter is mentioned in verse 34. This, however, has nothing to do with the conclusion that one can be sexually immoral and be saved. The Apostle Paul, in no uncertain terms, stated that the sexually immoral are wicked, impure, and God rejecters who will NOT inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9,10; Gal. 5:19-21; Eph. 5:5,6; 1 Thess. 4:3-8). Furthermore, God Himself declared that the sexually immoral will go to the fiery lake of burning sulfur (Rev. 21:5-8). Samson, David and/or any living person today is no exception!

I would have to agree with Dan here that the sexually immoral will NOT inherit the Kingdom. Samson fell short of Gods standard with his sin and disobedience and did not have the Holy Spirit to guide him at all times as with believers of today (See Objection #10), nevertheless he proved that he possessed faith in God and demonstrated it by his works and commitment to God, e.g., killing thousands of enemy Philistines.

OBJECTION #20. Fritz Ridenour has done an excellent job showing the differences between Roman Catholicism and true Christianity in his book, in which he also cites 1 Pet. 1:5 for support of UES.(32) I believe both points.

ANSWER: Ridenour is absolutely correct about those differences between Catholicism and true Christianity, including their false plan of salvation, which has misled hundreds of millions of sincere Catholics into a dangerous, spiritual deception. For this he needs to be commended, especially in this day of rampant, ecumenical compromise with Catholicism for the sake of personal ministry. However, it's unfortunate that he would taint his excellent book by trying to support UES!

1 Pet. 1:5 says, "Who through faith, are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." The key words in this verse are, "through faith." This verse shows the shield of protection that believers have exists ONLY as long as we keep the faith! The Lord taught this is certainly no guarantee, though, with His words, "They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away," Lk. 8:13. Also, Paul wrote, "But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either....sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off," Rom. 11:20-22.

Dan is repeating himself here, secondly in Romans 11:22, the broken branches do not refer to believers who lost their faith or salvation, a broken branch refers to an unbeliever that never was saved nor was a believer. The broken branches refer to the Jews or the unbelief of Israel, NOT Christians who once possessed faith and then lost it, the Gentiles found favor with God here because of their belief.

OBJECTION #21. 1 Jn. 3:9 says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." This seems clear to me that someone truly saved can't go back to a life of sin.

ANSWER: In part, this verse deals with initial salvation, which frees one from sin's slavery and changes his desire for sin. However, to conclude from this verse that one can't go back to a life of sin is error as the Biblical examples of Solomon, the younger widows of 1 Tim. 5:11-15, those referred to in 2 Pet. 2:20-22, etc. show! "God's seed," His Word, impedes sin IF HIDDEN IN OUR HEART (Psa. 119:9-11). However, as one might not "remain" in the Vine (Jn. 15:6), God's seed might not "remain" in the person who gets born of God! If 1 Jn. 3:9 had the meaning the UES advocates give it, then Paul's multiple warnings to the Christians would be meaningless (Gal. 5:19-21)!

I have already explained this on multiple occasions on this post, 1 Tim. 5:11-15, Gal. 5:19-21, etc...

OBJECTION #22. I believe in UES because I believe in the finished work of Christ!

ANSWER: The unnamed writer of Hebrews certainly believed in the finished work of Christ also (Heb. 7:27; 9:26; 10:11-14)! This, however, didn't mean he believed in UES as well (Heb. 3:12-14; 6:4-6; 10:26-31)! The same can be said elsewhere about Paul (Rom. 6:10 cf. Rom. 8:13; Gal. 5:19-21; 2 Tim. 2:12; etc.).

Such UES proponents infer that it is impossible to believe in the finished work of Christ and not believe in UES at the same time, in an effort to immediately discredit the opposing view. Obviously, they are wrong, according to what was just cited. The finished work of Christ is foundational to Christianity, but irrelevant in this controversy regarding the believer's security.

In Dans previous response he states that it is possible for someone to be lost and then saved again as he demonstrated it in the parable of the prodigal son (See Objection #2), furthermore it does not teach that one can lose their salvation through disbelief or apostasy, the author is referring to a hypothetical situation stressing what would happen to a saved person IF he could fall away. The author does not believe in the loss of Salvation, he is demonstrating the foolishness of reverting to Judaism without suffering loss, he is not writing about his readers "those" (v. 4), rather for their sakes "you" (v. 9) IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY is the translation given to the fifth participle of the passage. This is a common and even grammatical usage by the author within the warning passages (Heb. 2:3; 10:26; 6:8). The first four participles refer to the actual blessings in contrast to number 5 which describes a potential situation, and so can be translated unlike the first four. Hebrew 3:12 clearly states:"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." The word "UNBELIEF" says it all, how can one possess unbelief and be a Christian??? Heb 10:26 states "IF we sin willfully" showing that this act is deliberate, in other words this person is not led by the Spirit but are "in the flesh", secondly as in Heb. 6:4-6, it is an hypothetical situation. 2 Tim. 2:12 describes an unbeliever because he "denies" Christ and this denial is a lifelong resistance to Christ as explained in Dans response to Obejction #11, as for the rest of his argument, they have been answered in my previous responses in this post.

OBJECTION #23. I know I am eternally secure because God has promised that He will never leave me and never forsake me.

ANSWER: This is quoted from Heb. 13:5b which is taken from the Old Testament reference of Deut. 31:6,8. Though God's promise to Israel in Deut. 31 verses 6 and 8 is that He [God] will never "forsake" them, about ten verses later in the same chapter God predicts Israel will "forsake" Him, then in verse 17 He said, "On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many DISASTERS AND DIFFICULTIES will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods." [This is a conditional promise, as the whole chapter bears out, which can be nullified by "wickedness." If we "forsake" God by turning to wickedness, He will "forsake" us!]

What does it mean then to be forsaken by God here? When this occurred, various "calamities" came upon them: wasting famine, consuming pestilence, deadly plague, wild beasts, vipers and sword, according to Deut. 32:23-25. Therefore, the UES people read into this Scripture found in Heb. 13 something that is not there, for it does not even deal with an assured and guaranteed entrance into the kingdom of God at all, but instead a promise for temporal protection and well-being only, which can be negated by sin!

I will reiterate what I said in my previous responses, a Genuine Believer does not forsake his belief, but rather he continues in his faith empowered by God, led by the spirit and not the flesh and endures to the end.

OBJECTION #24. Samson committed suicide and he went to heaven because he is listed in the faith chapter. Therefore, we know Christians can likewise commit this awful sin and still go to heaven.

ANSWER: Samson did not commit suicide. His prayer shows he asked God to let him die with the Philistines, but left the matter entirely in God's hands (Jdg. 16:28-30). Unlike Samson, suicide victims decidedly take into their own hands the termination of their own physical lives. God honored Samson's prayer, but didn't honor Jonah's prayer for the same (Jonah 4:3) nor Elijah's prayer (1 Ki. 19:4)!

Actually I agree with Dan in his response, Samson did not commit suicide, Samson gave his life as a sacrifice and God gave him the extraordinary strength to accomplish his final feat in the destruction of the Philistines.

OBJECTION #25. If I'm wrong as a UES advocate, I want to be wrong because I overemphasize the infinite work of Christ on the cross.

ANSWER: This sounds like a good reason to accept UES or stay with this position. However, the infinite work of Christ, as just shown, doesn't relate to this controversy about the believer's security! In fact, many people who embrace once saved, always saved actually deny the infinite work of Christ by denying He died for every single person who ever lived. So, this is irrelevant to the issue! Truth is the deciding factor, which shows UES is a myth that holds its adherents in a false security with obvious spiritual disadvantages.

I can say exactly the same in regards to Conditional Security. According to Dan Corner, Salvation is a process of enduring until the end. But according to the scriptures it clearly teaches us that our Salvation is secured upon our initial Salvation:
Colossians 1:13 - Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Hath translated (methistemi) is in active indicative in the aorist tense, meaning that it is a truth that we have are “already” been guaranteed entrance into the Kingdom, and not a future state, thus it is a fact of the past and not of the future! I'm already saved!!!

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39)

God Bless!

[Aineo]

(Omega), I did not read your whole response since your habit of using large fonts and many colors bothers my eyes. Also if you are going to quote from an article put all parts of the article in quotes so those reading your posts can discern what are your thoughts. The way you posted almost the entire article from the other thread and only put part of it in quotes is confusing (at least to me).

However, I will respond to your use of Colossians 1:13, which was taken totally out of context. Paul is long winded in his discourses and in order to fully understand what he writes one must read it all. That said:

Colossians 1:9-23

9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. 21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. NAS

There is that often ignored two-letter word "if" again. You have not established OSAS as a Biblical doctrine since you have pulled verses out of context and ignored what both Jesus and Paul taught concerning those who will fall away from the faith.

As I noted above gay theology uses the same tactic of pulling verses out of context in a failed attempt to prove you can be a practicing homosexual and saved. If you have read the Catholic catechism it is full of verses pulled out of context to establish their false doctrines.

[Aineo]

And BTW (Omega) I did not post I accepted all that Dan Corner wrote. If you will read what I posted (not what Corner wrote) I asked for comments. Corner while rejecting OSAS accepts as Biblical that one can fall in and out of grace, which is not Biblical and denies the truth of Hebrews.

[(Omega)]

(Omega), I did not read your whole response since your habit of using large fonts and many colors bothers my eyes. Also if you are going to quote from an article put all parts of the article in quotes so those reading your posts can discern what are your thoughts. The way you posted almost the entire article from the other thread and only put part of it in quotes is confusing (at least to me).

However, I will respond to your use of Colossians 1:13, which was taken totally out of context. Paul is long winded in his discourses and in order to fully understand what he writes one must read it all. That said:

Colossians 1:9-23

9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. 21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. NAS

There is that often ignored two-letter word "if" again. You have not established OSAS as a Biblical doctrine since you have pulled verses out of context and ignored what both Jesus and Paul taught concerning those who will fall away from the faith.

As I noted above gay theology uses the same tactic of pulling verses out of context in a failed attempt to prove you can be a practicing homosexual and saved. If you have read the Catholic catechism it is full of verses pulled out of context to establish their false doctrines.

Here is the entire article posted by you:

http://www.thewayofthemaster.com/wotm_flash.html

____________________________________________________-
From:
Eternal Security Arguments and Proof Texts
Dan Corner


This refutation to unconditional eternal security (UES) would be incomplete if the primary proof texts and objections offered by the UES proponents were not dealt with and explained from Scripture. The following are additional objections that were not yet dealt with in this controversy. (Already explained were Jn. 6:64; Rom. 8:35-39; 2 Tim. 2:13 and 1 Jn. 2:19. Therefore, they will not be dealt with here.)

OBJECTION #1. Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of my hand," Jn. 10:28. Therefore, if, having received eternal life, we could lose it and perish, it would make Christ a liar.

"Notice a triple promise here concerning the security of God's sheep. First, Christ gives them 'eternal' life. Second, they shall 'never' perish, and third, neither shall any pluck them out of Christ's hand."(26)

ANSWER: Jn. 10:28 is a wonderful and true promise, but only as Jesus meant it to be understood! We must examine Jn. 10:27 carefully to understand who "them" and "they" are in verse 28 and what the Lord was saying. It reads, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they FOLLOW me." This is the only type of person, the one that meets these conditions, that will "NEVER PERISH," according to the next verse!

Did you notice the words, "they follow me"? The word translated "follow" is a PRESENT INDICATIVE ACTIVE in the Greek, which asserts something which is occurring while the speaker is making the statement. In other words, as long as we remain faithful and CONTINUE to follow Jesus, He will, indeed, assure us that we will "never perish," v.28.

No such promise, however, is given here (or anywhere in the Bible) to one that would turn and start "to follow Satan" as Paul knew could and did happen (1 Tim. 5:15)! It clearly does NOT cover such. Some read into Jn. 10:28 the words, "under any circumstance" after the words "never perish," but they are NOT there! Jesus did NOT include them in his promise and neither should we!

OBJECTION #2. Can you be "born again" again?

ANSWER: This is a rhetorical question that has confused some. To be "born again" is the same as getting saved or believing in Jesus. Therefore, if one stops believing in Jesus, then later starts believing again, he did indeed get saved again, as Rom. 11:23 declares. Remember also the Prodigal who became "alive again" (Lk. 15:24,32).

OBJECTION #3. Those that truly get saved will faithfully endure to the end and never follow another.

ANSWER: This was not true with Saul, Solomon, Judas, the unnamed disciples of Jn. 6:66 and many others! Furthermore, Jesus clearly taught that one could "believe for a while" then fall away or die (Lk. 8:13)! Paul similarly taught that one could "believe in vain" (1 Cor. 15:2) and fall "away from grace" (Gal. 5:4). Therefore, the wishful position of the UES proponent here is, again, refuted by the truth of Scripture.

OBJECTION #4. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life," Jn. 5:24. The verse says "will not be condemned." Therefore, one cannot lose it!

ANSWER: The word in Jn. 5:24 rendered "believes" is transliterated as PISTEUON and is also a PRESENT PARTICIPLE in the Greek. Therefore, the Lord is saying here that we must CONTINUOUSLY BE BELIEVING the Father, that is, his testimony about Jesus, which implies that Jesus alone is to be the focal point of our TRUST for our soul's salvation. See Matt. 17:5 cf. Jn. 14:6. We will never be condemned, as long as we keep this condition -- a continued 100% trusting in Jesus for our soul's salvation.

OBJECTION #5. "The Bible Answer Man" is Hank Hanegraaff. He's on coast to coast radio, he can't be wrong! He wrote the following, "And remember, eternal life comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life. It begins at the moment of conversion and stretches on through the eons of time." (27)

ANSWER: Hank is right when he writes that eternal life (or salvation) "comes to the believer through faith in Christ" and "begins at the moment of conversion." Also, it DOES remain everlasting (or eternal) life. That can't change. However, this doesn't necessitate that we can't be lost after we receive the "gift" of eternal life. In other words, eternal life is the "gift" (Rom. 6:23). As long as we have the gift, we have eternal life. Moreover, as long as we have spiritual life, it is everlasting, but according to Scripture a person once saved can still "die" spiritually (Rom. 8:13) and miss the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:19-21)!

OBJECTION #6. We are made sons of God, not put on probation!

ANSWER: Yes, it is true that we become a son of God at the point of salvation (Jn. 1:12). However, "We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly TILL THE END the confidence we had at first," Heb. 3:14. This verse is also true! Better than the word "probation" would be to say: according to Scripture, after salvation, we are sons of God with a free will and the potential of still not inheriting the kingdom of God, because of certain sins, false doctrine about salvation and disowning Christ during persecution.


OBJECTION #7. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life," Jn. 3:16. Jesus said "shall not perish"!

ANSWER: The word "believe" is PRESENT PARTICIPLE again! Therefore, Jesus was promising only those that CONTINUE to BELIEVE on HIM the assurance that they "shall not perish." This verse does NOT cover others that just "believe for a while" then fall away, as Scripture mentions (Lk. 8:13). Remember, one can truly believe, but this doesn't mean he will always continue to believe on Jesus in the future!

OBJECTION #8. I agree with Dave Hunt who wrote, "Salvation is the full pardon by grace from the penalty of all sin, past, present or future...."(28)

ANSWER: Dave Hunt has done an excellent job exposing and refuting false doctrine and various forms of subtle deceptions that plague the church. However, regarding this subject, we disagree with him.

Yes, we are saved by GRACE. However, the rest of this argument is contrasted by Scripture! See Peter's advice to Simon (Acts 8:22,23); Prov. 28:13 and John's teaching on this subject as cited in 1 Jn. 1:9. This is the Scriptural basis for getting forgiven AFTER initial salvation. At salvation, all sin to that point is forgiven and forgotten (Lk. 23:42,43; 18:9-14; Acts 10:43-48; Psa. 103:12). However, all sins afterwards committed are NOT automatically covered! If they were, then Rom. 8:13; Gal. 5:19-21; etc. would be senseless! Furthermore, Jesus clearly taught that our future sins would not be automatically forgiven in Matt. 6:14,15!

OBJECTION #9. "...love for the one who saved us is the greatest and only acceptable motive for living a holy life...."(29)

ANSWER: FEAR, like love, is indeed a legitimate motive or reason for serving God! Jesus told the Twelve when they were about to go out: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, BE AFRAID of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Hell," Matt. 10:28. Furthermore, Paul wrote: "...they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either," Rom. 11:20,21. Finally, remember Psa. 2:11, "Serve the Lord with FEAR and rejoice with trembling."

OBJECTION #10. God wouldn't save a person then later send him to Hell.

ANSWER: This was not the case for Judas and Saul, the king of Israel! The real truth is God would never force a person to continue to follow Jesus even after his faith in Jesus produced salvation. Read and ponder Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

Furthermore, this objection is like saying, God would never give His Spirit to later take it away from a person. This, however, clearly wasn't the case for Saul (1 Sam. 16:14).

OBJECTION #11. Our fellowship with God can suffer, but never one's relationship as a son.

ANSWER: As "adopted" sons (Eph. 1:5), we can fall away (Lk. 8:13), lose our inheritance of the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:21), be disowned by Christ (Matt. 10:33), have our name blotted from the book of life (Rev. 3:5), have our share in the tree of life and New Jerusalem taken away (Rev. 22:19), "DIE" because we chose to live according to the sinful nature (Rom. 8:13) and as the Prodigal SON, become "dead" and "lost" (Lk. 15:24)! This obviously describes a much greater loss than just our fellowship with God (or rewards), as some would wishfully like us to believe!

OBJECTION #12. Those that are saved have an inheritance that can "never perish, spoil or fade -- kept in heaven" for us (1 Pet. 1:3,4).

ANSWER: This wonderful passage of Scripture only describes our inheritance as Christians. It doesn't say that we cannot annul it through our after-conversion activities and/or beliefs! In fact, just the opposite was repeatedly declared by Paul (Gal. 5:21; 1 Cor. 6:9,10; 15:2; etc.).

OBJECTION #13. Jesus prayed to the Father that He would protect His disciples and that none would be lost. Certainly, the Father heard Jesus' prayer!

ANSWER: The verse referred to is from John 17. This, however, is not a certainty of remaining saved! In the very same prayer, Jesus also prayed for "complete unity" among the believers (Jn. 17:24). Clearly, from 1 Cor. 1:10-13, this didn't occur. Therefore, there must be some unnamed, outside factor to consider here. Remember, it was Jesus Himself who told His disciples that they would have to "stand firm to the end to be saved" on more than one occasion (Matt. 10:22; 24:13) and to "REMAIN" in Him or be thrown into the fire (Jn. 15:4-6)! Also, according to Rom. 8:34, Jesus is now praying for us from the right hand of God. This, however, doesn't mean that His servants cannot be deceived by false teachers, grow lukewarm, fall into impurity, etc. His powerful prayers and our free will work together. Our free will can, however, override His incredibly powerful prayers and His will for us. This is also evident from the following: It is His will that none should perish (2 Pet. 3:9), yet most will perish (Matt. 7:13,14), in spite of His will! This is also the answer for the UES proponent who argues from Heb. 7:25 or Rom. 8:34 regarding Jesus' prayers for us now.

OBJECTION #14. "...if salvation from the penalty of breaking God's laws cannot be earned by good deeds, then it CANNOT BE LOST BY BAD DEEDS" (30) (emphasis his, but capitalized words are italicized in original).

ANSWER: This type of statement-conclusion must be carefully examined. Yes, it is true that we don't gain our salvation by good deeds, according to Eph. 2:8,9; Tit. 3:5; 2 Tim. 1:9 and Rom. 4:4-6. However, the conclusion is FALSE, according to MANY Scriptural passages. See 1 Cor. 6:9,10 and Gal. 5:19-21 just to mention two. Remember also the many other references cited in this study. (Also, let's call it "sin" not just "bad deeds.")

Please note that sins such as worry and unthankfulness are not listed anywhere in Scripture as being spiritually lethal, as drunkenness, greed, sexual immorality, idolatry, slander and lying are!

OBJECTION #15. A child cannot become unborn, and the relationship of a father and a child cannot be ended. Once a son, always a son.

ANSWER: This argument is based on natural fact, then applied to the spiritual, which doesn't always hold up as truth. (UES adherents frequently make this kind of mistake!) This type of error can be demonstrated by the following facts: Before we became Christians, we were all "children of the devil" (Acts 13:10; 1 Jn. 3:10) and "sons of the evil one" (Matt. 13:38). In other words, the devil was our spiritual father (Jn. 8:44). However, this spiritual father-child relationship changed at the point of salvation, according to Scripture! Aren't you glad that spiritual father-child relationships CAN be ended?

Furthermore, many UES adherents who know the fallacy of the deification of man teaching would be quick to reject one of their arguments which is, likewise, based on natural fact then applied to the spiritual! That faulty argument put forth by Earl Paulk is: "Dogs have puppies and cats have kittens, so God has little gods."(31) Therefore, this type of reasoning must be carefully compared with Scripture.

OBJECTION #16. "...I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day," (2 Tim. 1:12). The only way Paul could have made this statement for himself was if he believed in unconditional eternal security.

ANSWER: Paul certainly knew that a "know-so" salvation existed and that he had it. However, we can assume that Paul believed personally the things he wrote to others. This means that Paul knew his "know-so" salvation at the moment could be negated in the future, as already cited.

Furthermore, Paul obviously believed God would guard or keep him. However, he also knew about the human responsibility for this: "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" (2 Tim. 4:7). Here we see Paul believed in human responsibility too.

OBJECTION #17. A real Christian won't ever be condemned as Romans 8:1 reads, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus...."

ANSWER: This "no condemnation" mentioned in Rom. 8:1 refers ONLY to those that are in Christ Jesus! This can only be the case if we continue in the faith, for it's definitely possible NOT to remain in the Son (Jn. 15:6; 1 Jn. 2:24; 2 Jn. 9). Furthermore, the K. J. V. renders the "no condemnation" as conditional for only the ones who "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"!

OBJECTION #18. Phil. 1:6 declares, "Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." This proves unconditional eternal security.

ANSWER: The New Testament declares this promise to be true ONLY in the lives of those who meet the conditions stated elsewhere in Scripture as in Matt. 10:22; Rom. 8:13; Gal. 6:8; etc.

Also, Phil. 1:6 needs to be understood in the light of the context of that book. Phil. 2:12 declares that this church group "always obeyed" in Paul's presence. Though not perfect, this was not a lukewarm, worldly church group, for not only did they "always obey," they were enduring the same types of struggles that Paul had (1:29,30), and they alone helped support Paul financially from the very beginning and were still doing so as this epistle was being written (4:14-16).

Besides the context of the book, the immediate context of the verse CLEARLY shows WHY Paul was so "confident," as he states in verse 6, which is really the whole basis of this favorite UES argument. Verse 7 reads, "It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart...." Note: The basis of the "confidence" mentioned in verse 6 was NOT a guaranteed eternal security which all Christians have in common! The basis of Paul's "confidence" mentioned in verse 6 was that he had them "IN HIS HEART" -- meaning they would be aided in their personal struggles by his heart felt prayers cited in verses 9-11. Note the same phrase mentioned in verse 6, "until the day of Christ Jesus" is repeated in verse 10 as "until the day of Christ," which connects Paul's "confidence" for them to his prayers for them.

OBJECTION #19. Samson was sexually immoral and he's mentioned as a hero in Hebrews 11. Therefore, one can be sexually immoral, like him, and be saved.

ANSWER: It's true that Samson is mentioned in Heb. 11:32, and why he was included in this chapter is mentioned in verse 34. This, however, has nothing to do with the conclusion that one can be sexually immoral and be saved. The Apostle Paul, in no uncertain terms, stated that the sexually immoral are wicked, impure, and God rejecters who will NOT inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9,10; Gal. 5:19-21; Eph. 5:5,6; 1 Thess. 4:3-8). Furthermore, God Himself declared that the sexually immoral will go to the fiery lake of burning sulfur (Rev. 21:5-8). Samson, David and/or any living person today is no exception!

OBJECTION #20. Fritz Ridenour has done an excellent job showing the differences between Roman Catholicism and true Christianity in his book, in which he also cites 1 Pet. 1:5 for support of UES.(32) I believe both points.

ANSWER: Ridenour is absolutely correct about those differences between Catholicism and true Christianity, including their false plan of salvation, which has misled hundreds of millions of sincere Catholics into a dangerous, spiritual deception. For this he needs to be commended, especially in this day of rampant, ecumenical compromise with Catholicism for the sake of personal ministry. However, it's unfortunate that he would taint his excellent book by trying to support UES!

1 Pet. 1:5 says, "Who through faith, are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." The key words in this verse are, "through faith." This verse shows the shield of protection that believers have exists ONLY as long as we keep the faith! The Lord taught this is certainly no guarantee, though, with His words, "They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away," Lk. 8:13. Also, Paul wrote, "But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either....sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off," Rom. 11:20-22.

OBJECTION #21. 1 Jn. 3:9 says, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." This seems clear to me that someone truly saved can't go back to a life of sin.

ANSWER: In part, this verse deals with initial salvation, which frees one from sin's slavery and changes his desire for sin. However, to conclude from this verse that one can't go back to a life of sin is error as the Biblical examples of Solomon, the younger widows of 1 Tim. 5:11-15, those referred to in 2 Pet. 2:20-22, etc. show! "God's seed," His Word, impedes sin IF HIDDEN IN OUR HEART (Psa. 119:9-11). However, as one might not "remain" in the Vine (Jn. 15:6), God's seed might not "remain" in the person who gets born of God! If 1 Jn. 3:9 had the meaning the UES advocates give it, then Paul's multiple warnings to the Christians would be meaningless (Gal. 5:19-21)!

OBJECTION #22. I believe in UES because I believe in the finished work of Christ!

ANSWER: The unnamed writer of Hebrews certainly believed in the finished work of Christ also (Heb. 7:27; 9:26; 10:11-14)! This, however, didn't mean he believed in UES as well (Heb. 3:12-14; 6:4-6; 10:26-31)! The same can be said elsewhere about Paul (Rom. 6:10 cf. Rom. 8:13; Gal. 5:19-21; 2 Tim. 2:12; etc.).

Such UES proponents infer that it is impossible to believe in the finished work of Christ and not believe in UES at the same time, in an effort to immediately discredit the opposing view. Obviously, they are wrong, according to what was just cited. The finished work of Christ is foundational to Christianity, but irrelevant in this controversy regarding the believer's security.

OBJECTION #23. I know I am eternally secure because God has promised that He will never leave me and never forsake me.

ANSWER: This is quoted from Heb. 13:5b which is taken from the Old Testament reference of Deut. 31:6,8. Though God's promise to Israel in Deut. 31 verses 6 and 8 is that He [God] will never "forsake" them, about ten verses later in the same chapter God predicts Israel will "forsake" Him, then in verse 17 He said, "On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many DISASTERS AND DIFFICULTIES will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods." [This is a conditional promise, as the whole chapter bears out, which can be nullified by "wickedness." If we "forsake" God by turning to wickedness, He will "forsake" us!]

What does it mean then to be forsaken by God here? When this occurred, various "calamities" came upon them: wasting famine, consuming pestilence, deadly plague, wild beasts, vipers and sword, according to Deut. 32:23-25. Therefore, the UES people read into this Scripture found in Heb. 13 something that is not there, for it does not even deal with an assured and guaranteed entrance into the kingdom of God at all, but instead a promise for temporal protection and well-being only, which can be negated by sin!

OBJECTION #24. Samson committed suicide and he went to heaven because he is listed in the faith chapter. Therefore, we know Christians can likewise commit this awful sin and still go to heaven.

ANSWER: Samson did not commit suicide. His prayer shows he asked God to let him die with the Philistines, but left the matter entirely in God's hands (Jdg. 16:28-30). Unlike Samson, suicide victims decidedly take into their own hands the termination of their own physical lives. God honored Samson's prayer, but didn't honor Jonah's prayer for the same (Jonah 4:3) nor Elijah's prayer (1 Ki. 19:4)!

OBJECTION #25. If I'm wrong as a UES advocate, I want to be wrong because I overemphasize the infinite work of Christ on the cross.

ANSWER: This sounds like a good reason to accept UES or stay with this position. However, the infinite work of Christ, as just shown, doesn't relate to this controversy about the believer's security! In fact, many people who embrace once saved, always saved actually deny the infinite work of Christ by denying He died for every single person who ever lived. So, this is irrelevant to the issue! Truth is the deciding factor, which shows UES is a myth that holds its adherents in a false security with obvious spiritual disadvantages.

Any comments?

Aineo, it seems that anything you disagree with is considered the tactic of "pulling verses out of context". I can consider the same for you and Conditional Security adherents but I won't use that response. Furthermore, I may have not "quoted" each portion of the article, I did however quote the refutations used by Dan Corner, AND the objections from the OSAS advocate, therefore the entire article is there. I apologize for the large fonts and colors, but thats just my posting style.

As for (1 Col. 1:9-23), "If ye continue in the faith" (or, "since you will persevere in the faith?) the Colossians' future entrance into God's heavenly presence depends on whether they remain in the Christian faith. The words "since you will persevere" indicate that they will remain loyal to Christ. Perseverance in the Christian faith is a test of the reality of one's trust in Christ, that verse implies that true believers will persevere.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

(Omega), if you had responded on the proper thread you would not have wasted so much server space reposting an article. As to pulling one verse out of context that is exactly what you did with 1 Colossians 1:13 so what bothers you seems to be that all false doctrines are based on faulty proof texting. Christians will persever if they continue in the faith, which brings us back what Jesus and Paul wrote concerning those who do not continue or persever in the faith since those who fall away do not continue to persever in the faith.

Now since you seem to think I have pulled verses out of context would you care to show me where and how?

[(Omega)]

(Omega), if you had responded on the proper thread you would not have wasted so much server space reposting an article. As to pulling one verse out of context that is exactly what you did with 1 Colossians 1:13 so what bothers you seems to be that all false doctrines are based on faulty proof texting. Christians will persever if they continue in the faith, which brings us back what Jesus and Paul wrote concerning those who do not continue or persever in the faith since those who fall away do not continue to persever in the faith.

Now since you seem to think I have pulled verses out of context would you care to show me where and how?

Faulty prooftexting? You are infact the one who stated that I pulled scriptures "totally out of context", I stated that it seems that anyone disagreeing with you is considered using the tactic of "pulling verses out of context".
I will again explain Colossians 1:23, which BTW claimed (I) took out of context.

Colossians 1:23:

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If {eigi:if indeed, seeing that, since, unless, (with negative) otherwise:--if (so be that, yet).} ye continue {epimeno:present, indicative, active} in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; (Colossians 1:22,23)

The Scriptures teaches us that if a person does not stand firm in the belief, this person is NOT saved, and example of this is found in another passage which uses the same "IF":
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory hold fast what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain" (1 Cor. 15:1-2).

Vain belief is not (saving faith), which demonstrates that this person clearly wasn't saved in the first place, Salvation comes by genuine faith in the finished work of Christ and the Gospel, not vain faith! I don't use "one" passage in scripture and try to establish an entire doctrine with it, I use the Word of God as a whole. I can surmise that you will use Hebrews as an another example, however that passage further doesn't demonstrate the doctrine of Conditional Security.
.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

Colossians 1:23

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; KJV

Once again you are attempting to draw a conclusion from one verse taken out of what Paul is teaching, which actually starts at verse 9. You are also assuming you can judge the heart of an individual who decides for whatever reason that continuing in the faith will cost more than walking away from the faith.

As to using 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 to show prove that once one has faith they can never loose faith that is simply your opinion, which is not born out by what Paul wrote.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. KJV

In verse 1 Paul writes that those in Corinth have received and stand. He then warns them in verse 2 that if the Corinthians depart from what he taught then they have believed in vain. Paul does not teach that those who believed in vain never believed in the first place. In other words (Omega) you are interpreting Scripture in an attempt to prove what you want to believe and in an attempt to establish a false doctrine.

Jesus taught:

Matthew 24:4-14
"See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. NAS

OSAS labels Jesus a liar since Jesus plainly states that some will fall away. OSAS also labels Paul and the Holy Spirit liars:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer. NAS

Aineo, it seems that anything you disagree with is considered the tactic of "pulling verses out of context". I can consider the same for you and Conditional Security adherents but I won't use that response

Perhaps the reason you won’t use that response is because you cannot show that those who teach and believe in conditional security pull Scripture out of context?

[(Omega)]

Colossians 1:23

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; KJV

Once again you are attempting to draw a conclusion from one verse taken out of what Paul is teaching, which actually starts at verse 9. You are also assuming you can judge the heart of an individual who decides for whatever reason that continuing in the faith will cost more than walking away from the faith.

As to using 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 to show prove that once one has faith they can never loose faith that is simply your opinion, which is not born out by what Paul wrote.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. KJV

In verse 1 Paul writes that those in Corinth have received and stand. He then warns them in verse 2 that if the Corinthians depart from what he taught then they have believed in vain. Paul does not teach that those who believed in vain never believed in the first place. In other words (Omega) you are interpreting Scripture in an attempt to prove what you want to believe and in an attempt to establish a false doctrine.

I'm judging the heart? Once again Aineo I will repeat myself:

Colossians 1:23:

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If {eigi:if indeed, seeing that, since, unless, (with negative) otherwise:--if (so be that, yet).} ye continue {epimeno:present, indicative, active} in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; (Colossians 1:22,23)

Aineo, "Scripture interprets scripture", on the other hand in your attempt to prove me wrong I am labeled as one who is interpreting scripture based on personal opinion. If there is a false doctrine it is the Doctrine of conditional security, you can label the doctrine of Eternal Security a doctrine of devil based on your interpretations, however expansion of one text in the light of other passages in scripture which BTW I have demonstrated have proven that you have yet to broaden the scope of the Doctrine of salvation. Furthermore Paul does indeed teach that those who believed in vain were never saved in the first place. Lets take a look at that passage again:

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory hold fast what I preached unto you, unless {ektos:except} ye have believed {pisteuo:aortist tense, indicative active} in vain {eike:without a purpose or just cause}" (1 Cor. 15:1-2).
It is not stating that they can somehow after once believing can fall away from true belief,because belief, believing or believed "without a purpose" denotes false belief or belief in a hope or truth that is not there! As I stated earlier to my response to Dan Corners commentary, IF the Corinthians failed to retain the Gospel, this is an indication that they have "believed in vain", i.e., (without effect). A temporary faith is superficial faith and makes no difference in the life of the person because the Gospel fails to "TAKE EFFECT", that person was never rooted in the Word and did not come fruition. These that fail to come to fruition are known as "tares" {zizanion} or (false converts), they resembled wheat but did not bear fruits which is the evidence of true conversion.

Jesus taught:

Matthew 24:4-14
"See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. NAS

OSAS labels Jesus a liar since Jesus plainly states that some will fall away. OSAS also labels Paul and the Holy Spirit liars:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer. NAS

"Paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"?
The ONLY spirit I have paid attention to is the spirit of the Gospel found in the Scriptures ALONE, and none other, no teacher, commentator but the scriptures alone! I have always believed in the Doctrine of Eternal Security and will remain immovable in it, not subject to "change" as some who depart from the faith do.
All the verses you quote in regards to "enduring til the end", are easily explained in many passages, I will REPEAT myself:

• "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." "Overcometh the world" is in the present tense which is indicating that the believer is continually overcoming: whatsoever "IS BORN" {gennao:perfect tense}of God.

You can quote all the scriptures to convince me that I have fallen victim to false doctrines but that is EXACTLY what I have in mind concerning you.

Aineo, it seems that anything you disagree with is considered the tactic of "pulling verses out of context". I can consider the same for you and Conditional Security adherents but I won't use that response

Perhaps the reason you won’t use that response is because you cannot show that those who teach and believe in conditional security pull Scripture out of context?

Really? I just did, do I have to re-post my refutation to Dan Corners (A Conditional Security Adherent)? As usual you make the claim that it is I who have pulled scriptures out of context and repeating the same responses I have refuted over and over again.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

(Omega), you are correct Scripture interprets Scripture. But in order to understand what Scripture teaches you have to put it in context. Colossians 1:23 is only part of what Paul is teaching in Colossians 1:5ff. Paul is telling those in Colossia that if they continue in the faith, which brings us back to what both Jesus and Paul taught that some will fall away from the faith.

If {eigi:if indeed, seeing that, since, unless, (with negative) otherwise:--if (so be that, yet).}

You are not the only person who can use a Lexicon and what you did was remove the comma between "if" and "indeed" from the Lexicon you used. "Eigi(e)" is found in 5 verses in the KJV and all indicate the meaning to be "unless" the word you failed to bold. Those verse are 2 Corinthians 5:3, Galatians 3:4, Ephesians 3:2, 4:21, and Colossians 1:23.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. NAS

"If you hold fast the word which I preached to you" is simply a different wording than Jesus used when He said "endures to the end" (Matthew 24:13).

In order to establish OSAS as a true doctrine you have to interpret what Paul wrote in Colossians 1 to mean what you want it to mean and ignore what is written in clear language.

When OSAS advocates say those who "fall away" were "never saved in the first place" they are in fact judging the hearts of those who "fall away". Only God has the ability to judge the hearts of men.

[(Omega)]

(Omega), you are correct Scripture interprets Scripture. But in order to understand what Scripture teaches you have to put it in context. Colossians 1:23 is only part of what Paul is teaching in Colossians 1:5ff. Paul is telling the those in Colossia that if they continue in the faith, which brings us back to what both Jesus and Paul taught that some will fall away from the faith.

If {eigi:if indeed, seeing that, since, unless, (with negative) otherwise:--if (so be that, yet).}

You are not the only person who can use a Lexicon and what you did was remove the comma between "if" and "indeed" from the Lexicon you used. "Eigi(e)" is found in 5 verses in the KJV and all indicate the meaning to be "unless" the word you failed to bold. Those verse are 2 Corinthians 5:3, Galatians 3:4, Ephesians 3:2, 4:21, and Colossians 1:23.

Did I say that I was the only one who can use a Lexicon? I respect your efforts in trying to refute the interpretation of that passage I have presented, however I will elaborate even further:

That particular "if" (eigi) found in Col. 1:23 is followed by an indicative verb, meaning that the "if" clause is always considered to be true. In other words it is rendered in its correct context as "If you continue, and you will." This is not a condition brought about by Paul, but rather an exhortation.

"If you hold fast the word which I preached to you" is simply a different wording than Jesus used when He said "endures to the end" (Matthew 24:13).

In order to establish OSAS as a true doctrine you have to interpret what Paul wrote in Colossians 1 to mean what you want it to mean and ignore what is written in clear language.

When OSAS advocates say those who "fall away" were "never saved in the first place" they are in fact judging the hearts of those who "fall away". Only God has the ability to judge the hearts of men.

Different wording but same concept! And as for Colossians 1, please read above. Once again it is not I who judge the hearts of men, it is the Scriptures. The scriptures clearly teach us that we can be assured that we have Eternal Life and that those who "fall away" from Genuine Belief is contrary to Biblical Truths, and I will demonstrate this below.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto{hemera}the day of redemption{apolutrosis}. (Ephesians 4:30)

That passage teaches us that "we are sealed" {sphragizo} which denotes ownership by God Himself and which only GOD Himself is able to break, not man. The same word is used for the 144,000 found in Rev. 7:4 and Eph 1:13. In Eph 1:13 it states that "we were sealed {sphragizo}with that holy Spirit of promise" This sealing of the Holy Spirit is a guarantee of our Salvation, just as a person who seals an envelope to guarantee its enclosure. The entire context of Eph 1:13 reads as:
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

In its correct context it reads, "By whom also, when you believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit". Unless you want to be guilty of taking scriptures utterly out of context, that passage CLEARLY states that upon the commencement of our faith, we are secured by the Holy Spirit. The believer does not receive the Holy Spirit "after", but when he believes in Christ as Savior, the sealer is Christ; the seal is the Holy Spirit. In biblical times a seal denoted both identification of ownership and protection provided by the owner, a Genuine Believer cannot break a seal that God Himself have placed. Then in verse 14 of chapter 1 it reads: "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.", in other words it means (who is the guarantee of our Salvation). The Holy Spirit is called "the earnest of our inheritance", the word earnest means "down payment"; as such the gift of the Spirit is viewed as an installment or as part of our Salvation. God therefore assures the believer that the realization of the rest of his salvation is forthcoming. And how long is the believer assured of his salvation? "until the redemption of the purchased possession", which means until God glorifies and perfects the believer (the purchased possession) whom He has bought by Christ's blood. Likewise with Eph. 4:30, however in this passage it is indicating that Salvation cannot be lost because we are owned and protected by God until (the day of redemption). The same word for sealed is found in Rev. 7:4 where the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed which shows ownership and security, just as a Kings signet ring was used to authenticate and protect official documents. These 144,000 will most likely be converted and commissioned to be a light to the Gentiles during the tribulation period, however it is also likely that they may suffer persecution or even martyrdom, however they are kept by the seal of God and protected by the adversary who cannot harm the soul of the believer (Matt. 10:28). Even IF the "ifs" truly meant (if) and nothing more, the Holy Spirit which guides us into all truth would lead us to obey these "ifs" (John 8:31).

God Bless!

[Aineo]

My comment regarding the use of a Lexicon was in reference to how you bolded what you wanted to bold concerning what one Greek word means while at the same time ignoring the context of the passage. What I find telling about your interpretation is your addition of the word "and" in your statement "If you continue, and you will." It could just as easily and more correctly be stated "if you continue then you will. What determines the proper understanding is what the balance of Scripture teaches and Jesus and Paul both teach believers will fall away from the faith.

What makes you think God will not break the seal when believers fall away from the faith, which is the whole point of what Jesus taught in Matthew 24 and Paul taught in 1 Timothy 4? And

Hebrews 10:26-31

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. NAS

So far no OSAS advocate and that includes you have been able to show that those who "fall away" from the faith "were never saved in the first place" or were not sealed with the seal of a promise that will be fulfilled or kept at the first resurrection.

[(Omega)]

Double Post...

[(Omega)]

My comment regarding the use of a Lexicon was in reference to how you bolded what you wanted to bold concerning what one Greek word means while at the same time ignoring the context of the passage. What I find telling about your interpretation is your addition of the word "and" in your statement "If you continue, and you will." It could just as easily and more correctly be stated "if you continue then you will. What determines the proper understanding is what the balance of Scripture teaches and Jesus and Paul both teach believers will fall away from the faith.

What makes you think God will not break the seal when believers fall away from the faith, which is the whole point of what Jesus taught in Matthew 24 and Paul taught in 1 Timothy 4? And

How is it translated "If you continue, then you will." if the "if" clause is always considered to be true because it is followed by an indicative verb? "then" does not set forth an affirmative which brings me back to my first correct rendering in the Greek grammar and why since is the proper word used here: "Since you will persevere in the faith" And as for God breaking the seal when believers "fall away", I knew you would pose this question which is why I made the effort to expound in my previous post that God (cannot and will not) break the seal of His promise, here is that passage in is entirety:

Ephesians 1:13 - In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of (promise)

Are you trying to say that God retracts His promises?
Promise:[1860] (for information, assent or pledge; especially a divine assurance of good):--message, promise

And as for Matthew 24 and 1 Timothy 4 would be a contradiction to Gods word which is an impossibility. I notice that you quote (Matt. 24:10) using the NAS version which BTW is an outstanding version, however in the Greek grammatical rendering, the word "offended"{skandalizo}which the NAS translates as "fall away" is also used in the EXACT context of (Matt. 26:31) which reads:

Matthew 26:31 - Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Now we know for a FACT that the Disciples did not lose their Salvation because the atonement of Christ's sacrifice had not been fulfilled yet, and secondly we are absolutely certain that the disciples DID NOT completely depart from their faith, therefore Matt. 24:10 does not affirm that Genuine Believers will depart from their faith and somehow lose their Salvation. And there is no verse in 1 Tim. 4 that shows that Salvation can be lost.

Hebrews 10:26-31

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. NAS

So far no OSAS advocate and that includes you have been able to show that those who "fall away" from the faith "were never saved in the first place" or were not sealed with the seal of a promise that will be fulfilled or kept at the first resurrection.

Aineo, I believe that I have explained this passage before, and if not:

Verses 26-31 contain the fourth warning passage of (Hebrews 2:1-4). The surrounding verses (19-31) contain related exhortations, but the warning itself is limited to these verses. They warn of the critical danger of turning from Christ's once-for-all, perfect sacrifice back to their old ways. IF we sin willfully reveals that this act is deliberate. It parallels the sin of Numbers 15:30,31. When one willingly or defiantly disobeyed God, there was no sacrifice for such apostasy. He had to die. This is the nature of sin in verse 26. Verse 28 seems to allude to Deuteronomy 17:2-7. These verses record that upon the testimony of two or three witnesses, death by stoning was the punishment for (apostasy)-going after and serving false gods (Deut. 17:2) Now in verse 29, the one who would despise the person of Jesus and His ministry as High Priest is worthy of even greater judgment. Verse 29 due to the verb and the participles used, should not be understood as judgment that has happened because of such apostasy, but as judgment that would happen should such apostasy occur. The author places his recipients and himself (we) under this warning just as he did in the earlier warnings, NOTE: Paul was persuaded (peitho), the perfect tense which is an indications that Paul was persuaded in the past and remains so now, that God is able to keep the assurance of his Salvation which is committed to him against that day. (2 Tim. 1:12), in other words, Paul was absolutely certain without a hint of doubt that his Salvation was secured [Even Dan Corner Himself agrees], and yet he (Paul) is among the recipients of Hebrews 10:16-31, therefore this passage is purely hypothetical in nature! Furthermore by doing so he demonstrates that the warnings are intended for the saved as well as for the unsaved. Yet, here, as in Chapter 6, the author does not say that anyone has committed this sin! He describes what would happen, not what has happened. He is describing a hypothetical situation. The stern admonition of this warning, and all others found in scripture, is God's means to ensure our perseverance, and those who Genuinely Believe will adhere to these commands because the Spirit gives us understanding of it.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)

God Bless!

[Aineo]

Am I saying that a righteous and just good will revoke His pledge?

Ephesians 1:12-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. NAS

What OSAS advocates totally ignore is that we are saved by grace (a gift) through faith. We receive the Holy Spirit by faith, we are made righteous by faith, without faith it is impossible to please God. So what happens when a man falls from faith? He gives back the pledge and annuls the promise, his looses his righteousness, and he looses his salvation.

The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge of our inheritance in Jesus. What is a pledge and how and why is a pledge withdrawn or given back? God does not revoke His gifts but we by an act of our free will can give back His gifts.

Romans 1:17
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."
NAS

Galatians 3:11-14
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, " The righteous man shall live by faith. " 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"-- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NAS

Hebrews 10:35-38
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.
NAS

Galatians 6:6-10
6 And let the one who is taught the word share all good things with him who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we shall reap if we do not grow weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. NAS

What is the end result of loose of faith?

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God. NAS

Revelation 21:7-8
7 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." NAS

The key to receiving and keeping the promises of God is by faith and faith alone.

OSAS can be disproved by what both Jesus and Paul plainly taught and they both taught that some will fall away from the faith, which save us, makes us righteous before a righteous God, and by which we receive the promise or pledge of the Holy Spirit.

[(Omega)]

(DOUBLE POST)

[(Omega)]

both Jesus and Paul plainly taught and they both taught that some will fall away from the faith.

However the scriptures do not teach this as I will show again.

What OSAS advocates totally ignore is that we are saved by grace (a gift) through faith. We receive the Holy Spirit by faith, we are made righteous by faith, without faith it is impossible to please God. So what happens when a man falls from faith? He gives back the pledge and annuls the promise, his looses his righteousness, and he looses his salvation.

The Holy Spirit is given as a pledge of our inheritance in Jesus. What is a pledge and how and why is a pledge withdrawn or given back? God does not revoke His gifts but we by an act of our free will can give back His gifts.

It seems as if you are trying to find a loophole. I am going to restate what I said in my previous post, we are (SEALED) with the Holy Spirit, and how long are we sealed? "until the redemption of the purchased possession" The most common response in Conditional Security adherents is "free will can give back His gifts, OR he/she can choose to walk away" well it doesn't work here, why? In essence you are stating that the Holy Spirit which is sealed within the believer somehow departs because he/she no longer possesses saving faith, what is the duty of the Holy Spirit? - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13) And when does the Holy Spirit come? "after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed." (Eph. 1:13) One of the aspects of the Holy Spirit is His ability to convict a person of sin, and an unbelieving person who no longer possesses saving faith would therefore lose his/her conviction and belief in the Gospel. In other words, this person who is sealed by the Holy Spirit which convicts him/her of sin and guides the "believer" into all truth "until the day of redemption" somehow lose their belief and conviction, while the Holy Spirit remains (SEALED) within them. The Holy Spirit is referred to as the "Spirit of Truth" which is why those who possess saving faith endure, overcome and continue in their belief. The just will live by faith and God will take no pleasure in him IF he shrinks back "draw back" (Heb. 10:38). Who are the "IFS"? The person who "draws back" and the "just who live by faith" are not the same, because the next verse reads: "But we are not of them who (draw back) unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

What is the end result of loose of faith?

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God. NAS

Revelation 21:7-8
7 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." NAS

The key to receiving and keeping the promises of God is by faith and faith alone.

OSAS can be disproved by what both Jesus and Paul plainly taught and they both taught that some will fall away from the faith, which save us, makes us righteous before a righteous God, and by which we receive the promise or pledge of the Holy Spirit.

You are correct in stating that the key to holding on to Gods promises is by faith alone, however faith does not somehow dwindle away in the person possessing saving faith, on the contrary it is augmented by the Holy Spirit as he/she is guided into "all truth".

The scriptures go hand in hand, example:
Q. Who is he that overcometh?
A. He that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 John 5:5)
Q. What happens after he believeth (from the heart)
A. Ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13)

God Bless!

[Aineo]

All you have done is rehash what you want to believe and totally ignored that both Jesus and Paul plainly teach that some will fall away from the faith by adding the word "saving". As to Hebrews 10:39, the writer is expressing an opinion concerning his readers. Now if the writer has prefaced his statement with "the Spirit explicity says" then your interpretation would be valid.

You can dance around what Scripture teaches about faith being our only path to salvation, receiving the Holy Spirit, and etc. but so far no OSAS advocate has been able to defeat what Jesus and Paul taught and until you can without adding to what is written you will never establish OSAS is anything but a false doctrine of men.

[(Omega)]

Double Post....

[(Omega)]

All you have done is rehash what you want to believe and totally ignored that both Jesus and Paul plainly teach that some will fall away from the faith by adding the word "saving". As to Hebrews 10:39, the writer is expressing an opinion concerning his readers. Now if the writer has prefaced his statement with "the Spirit explicity says" then your interpretation would be valid.

You can dance around what Scripture teaches about faith being our only path to salvation, receiving the Holy Spirit, and etc. but so far no OSAS advocate has been able to defeat what Jesus and Paul taught and until you can without adding to what is written you will never establish OSAS is anything but a false doctrine of men.

Hebrews 10:39 the writer uses the word (WE) indicating that it not only applies to his readers but also to himself.

Aineo, it is apparent that you will continue to maintain the same disposition when it comes to Conditional Security regardless of the fact that I have clearly proven that those who fall away do not possess saving faith, saving faith and faith are NOT THE SAME!

Q. Why does a person "FALL AWAY"?
A. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have (no root)[spiritual reality], which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (Luke 8:13)

Q. Receiving the word with just joy is not a constituent of "saving faith", why?
A. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also (believe), and tremble. (James 2:19)

The same word for "believe" {pisteuo} is used in Lk. 8:13 and James 2:19, therefore to state that the person that "falls away" after they have believed {pisteuo} for a while were once saved is misconstruing that passage. The demons of James 2:19 still "believe" that Jesus is the Son of God, however they do not possess saving faith. Are you still going to tell me that adding the word "saving" makes no difference whatsoever in regards to faith? Saving faith is faith that endures, abides and stands firm in the truth of Gods word and the finished work of the Cross, this is accomplished only if there is ROOT within the person. We know that "faith" {pistis:conviction of the truth of God, assurance, reliance upon Christ for Salvation} is a fruit of the Spirit, and unless there lies a root from within, the person not possessing saving faith remains barren and has the propensity to fall away. Nearly anyone on this forum can see for themselves that I have clearly proven that those who fall away from the faith were indeed never saved whether you deny this with your usual statement:

no OSAS advocate has been able to defeat what Jesus and Paul taught and until you can without adding to what is written you will never establish OSAS is anything but a false doctrine of men.

You can consider OSAS a false doctrine and a doctrine of men, however that is exactly what I consider Conditional Security. Since you obviously will continue to ignore all I have presented and pose the same question over and over again which BTW have been refuted, I don't see the purpose of continuing.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

(Omega), all you have done is avoid the issue. In Hebrews 10:39 the author cannot be using a coporate "we" unless he personally knows every person who reads his epistle since no human being can speak for every other human being who reads what he writes. The obvious understaning of the "we" are those who accompany the writer who was probably Paul. Let's use some common sense and not wishful thinking.

Also you keep coming back to believers being sealed by the Holy Spirit, who is received by faith. What can break that seal? The answer is obvious; walk away from the faith or become apostate. So what is your response? Those who fail away from the faith never possessed "saving faith", which is an opinion that you cannot base on Scripture. This is especially true since Paul writes in plain language:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.[/color]NAS

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 [b]But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS

So who would deceive the body of Christ? Those who teach unScriptural doctrines like OSAS that lull some who willfully sin into a false sense of eternal security. It is only those who overcome and endure to the end that will be saved.

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. NAS

You can put your faith in manmade doctrine all you want, but unless you have something more than rhetoric to show that Jesus did not know what He sas talking about I will accept His word over OSAS any day of the week.

[(Omega)]

(Omega), all you have done is avoid the issue. In Hebrews 10:39 the author cannot be using a coporate "we" unless he personally knows every person who reads his epistle since no human being can speak for every other human being who reads what he writes. The obvious understaning of the "we" are those who accompany the writer who was probably Paul. Let's use some common sense and not wishful thinking.

Also you keep coming back to believers being sealed by the Holy Spirit, who is received by faith. What can break that seal? The answer is obvious; walk away from the faith or become apostate. So what is your response? Those who fail away from the faith never possessed "saving faith", which is an opinion that you cannot base on Scripture. This is especially true since Paul writes in plain language:

Go back are re-read what I stated, you have yet to show any proof using scripture that those who fell away were once saved. I made a very simple comparison "based on scripture" that your quoted verses did NOT prove that those who fell away were saved and you have ignored this. I will restate it again:

And as for Matthew 24 and 1 Timothy 4 would be a contradiction to Gods word which is an impossibility. I notice that you quote (Matt. 24:10) using the NAS version which BTW is an outstanding version, however in the Greek grammatical rendering, the word "offended"{skandalizo}which the NAS translates as "fall away" is also used in the EXACT context of (Matt. 26:31) which reads:

Matthew 26:31 - Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Now we know for a FACT that the Disciples did not lose their Salvation because the atonement of Christ's sacrifice had not been fulfilled yet, and secondly we are absolutely certain that the disciples DID NOT completely depart from their faith, therefore Matt. 24:10 does not affirm that Genuine Believers will depart from their faith and somehow lose their Salvation. And there is no verse in 1 Tim. 4 that shows that Salvation can be lost.

Can you prove that those who "fall away" (Matt. 24:10) which is used most often by you were ever saved to begin with? On the other hand you said:

OSAS labels Jesus a liar since Jesus plainly states that some will fall away. OSAS also labels Paul and the Holy Spirit liars:

What is a lie is stating that these people who "fall away" are those who once had Salvation. To state that Matt 24:10 refers to believers losing their salvation is an opinion and not biblical truth which can be proven. Did the disciples lose their salvation? Furthermore, I have fully backed up the doctrine of Eternal Security. Either you are deliberately choosing to completely ignore each and every scripture posted or you are obtuse. How is it that anyone who is "sealed" by the Holy Spirit become faithless? if the Holy Spirit is to guide the believer into "all truth" and is the "Spirit of Truth" and remains sealed within the person, why would this person choose to walk away while indwelled with the Holy Spirit being sealed within?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.[/color]NAS

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 [b]But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS

Aineo, 1 Timothy 4:1 "shall depart from" and Luke 8:13 "fall away" uses the same greek word {aphistemi} and as I stated before and I will say it again. In Luke 8:13 it uses the same word "believe" {pisteuo} as in those who believe for a while and "fall away" {aphistemi} in James 2:19 where it states that the demons (SAME WORD) "believe". Thus Luke 8:13 does not prove that those who "fall away" were once saved and neither does 1 Timothy 4:1! 2 Thess 2 uses the words "a falling away" {apostasia} which basically means to "fall away" as in Luke 8:13 in the Greek language, this does not prove that these who fall away are those who once obtained Salvation because we know that those who had no root and "believed"{pisteuo} for a while just as the demons did, "fell away" .

So who would deceive the body of Christ? Those who teach unScriptural doctrines like OSAS that lull some who willfully sin into a false sense of eternal security. It is only those who overcome and endure to the end that will be saved.

That is so old, anyone who willfully sins clearly shows that they have an unregenerate heart (2 Cor. 5:17), so that accusation is null and void. Who is deceiving others? It is those who teach that Salvation can be lost to those who Genuinely put their absolute faith in Christ and not a "self-professed" Christian.

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. NAS

"He that shall endure unto the end", how does this disprove Eternal Security? Jesus is more likely speaking of the promise of perseverance, how does this passage prove that a saved person can lose their salvation? And where between the beginning and the end does this person actually possess salvation? "He that shall endure unto the end" is obviously someone who is saved, but where does that passage actually state that if he fails to endure to the end that he was saved to begin with?

You can put your faith in manmade doctrine all you want, but unless you have something more than rhetoric to show that Jesus did not know what He sas talking about I will accept His word over OSAS any day of the week.

I don't put my faith in a manmade doctrine, I put my absolute trust in what the Scriptures clearly teach and you chosen to ignore this. Jesus indeed knew exactly what He was talking about and so does the Bible as a "Whole", and it does not teach that a person who once possessed salvation can lose it. I will accept Gods word over Conditional Security at any time. If there is any doctrine that is misleading, it is the Doctrine of Conditional Security.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

Go back are re-read what I stated, you have yet to show any proof using scripture that those who fell away were once saved. I made a very simple comparison "based on scripture" that your quoted verses did NOT prove that those who fell away were saved and you have ignored this.

And what you want to ignore is there is no Scripture upon which to base "they were never saved in the first place" or that those who "fall away from the faith" did not possess a "saving faith" a phrase that never appears in Scripture.

So far you have danced around what Jesus and Paul plainly teach without addressing what they taught. Your use of Matthew 26:31 as proof that some can "fall away" and return to Jesus is ludicrous since Jesus' intent is different in the passages you are trying to compare. In Matthew 26:31 Jesus is showing that the apostles will fulfill a prophecy while in Matthew 24:10 Jesus is teaching that those who fall away will then persecute those who "endure to the end". Context is very important when trying to use a Greek lexicon and then wrangle over words.

You are the one maintaining that those who "fall away" or are offended in Matthew 24:10 never possessed saving faith where you add "saving" a word never used with faith in the KJ or NAS when referring to faith of any kind.

John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit. 3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. NAS

According to OSAS and you any branch that is in Jesus will never cease bearing fruit, which denies the above. How does one abide in Jesus and bear fruit? By faith.

Now ever if you want to wrangle over the Greek used in Matthew 24:10 how are you going to disprove Paul?

1 Timothy 4:1
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; KJV

The Greek word translated "depart" is:

NT:868

aphistemi (af-is'-tay-mee); frm NT:575 and NT:2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:


KJV - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdrawself.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:868

afisteemi:

1. transitively, in present, imperfect, future, 1 aorist active, to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove; to excite to revolt: Acts 5:37

2. intransitively, in perfect, pluperfect, 2 aorist active, to stand off, stand aloof, Luke 13:27
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

Now do you think you can actually address what Jesus and Paul said or are you going to continue to wrangle over words and appeal to a lexicon and ignore the context of passages?

[(Omega)]

And what you want to ignore is there is no Scripture upon which to base "they were never saved in the first place" or that those who "fall away from the faith" did not possess a "saving faith" a phrase that never appears in Scripture.

So far you have danced around what Jesus and Paul plainly teach without addressing what they taught. Your use of Matthew 26:31 as proof that some can "fall away" and return to Jesus is ludicrous since Jesus' intent is different in the passages you are trying to compare. In Matthew 26:31 Jesus is showing that the apostles will fulfill a prophecy while in Matthew 24:10 Jesus is teaching that those who fall away will then persecute those who "endure to the end". Context is very important when trying to use a Greek lexicon and then wrangle over words.

You are the one maintaining that those who "fall away" or are offended in Matthew 24:10 never possessed saving faith where you add "saving" a word never used with faith in the KJ or NAS when referring to faith of any kind.

Instead of using the same response that I "dance around" scriptures and "wrangling over words" to limit my ability to refute your mute point, I will show you how my initial argument of Matt. 24:10 was indeed in its correct context. To state that Matt. 26 is merely a prophecy and should not be used to determine the correct interpretation of a word is a poor excuse, why? What was the reason why the disciples were offended "offended" {skandalizo} in Matt. 26:31? Because of fear of being persecuted, do you deny this? The same reason as to why many will be offended in Matt. 24:10, trying to find a loophole to avoid seeing the truth leads to self-deception.

John 15:1-6
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit. 3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. NAS

According to OSAS and you any branch that is in Jesus will never cease bearing fruit, which denies the above. How does one abide in Jesus and bear fruit? By faith.

Really Aineo? John 15:4 - Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
When does the branch begin to bear fruit and then cease to bear fruit? The passage above clearly states that a (person) "branch" CANNOT bring forth any fruit UNLESS it abides in the "vine" (Jesus), nowhere in that passage does it ever say that a branch begins its production of fruit then ceases to bear it. You must first "abide IN the vine" to bear fruit any fruit at all, and Jesus clearly stated that someone who does not bear fruit is cast into the fire, NOT bear fruit and then cease to!

Now ever if you want to wrangle over the Greek used in Matthew 24:10 how are you going to disprove Paul

1 Timothy 4:1
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; KJV

The Greek word translated "depart" is:

NT:868

aphistemi (af-is'-tay-mee); frm NT:575 and NT:2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:


KJV - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdrawself.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:868

afisteemi:

1. transitively, in present, imperfect, future, 1 aorist active, to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove; to excite to revolt: Acts 5:37

2. intransitively, in perfect, pluperfect, 2 aorist active, to stand off, stand aloof, Luke 13:27
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

Now do you think you can actually address what Jesus and Paul said or are you going to continue to wrangle over words and appeal to a lexicon and ignore the context of passages?

Go back and Re-read what I posted, I clearly stated that the word for "fall away" (Lk. 8:13) and "shall depart from" (1 Tim. 4:1) are the SAME, which BTW your Biblesoft failed to show. I will reiterate again that in Luke 8:13 it uses the same word "believe" {pisteuo} as in those who believe for a while and "fall away" {aphistemi} because they have no root, and in James 2:19 it states that the demons (SAME WORD) also "believe". Disprove what? You have yet to prove that those who "fell away" were saved to begin with!

God Bless!

[Aineo]

The apostles "fell away" because they feared persecution not because they fell away from faith in Jesus Christ. And you are wrangling over words and not discussing the context of a full teaching.

Matthew 24:4-13

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

Those Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24 don't hide from fear and then return they actively persecute those who remain, which does not apply to what Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 26.

To state that Matt. 26 is merely a prophecy and should not be used to determine the correct interpretation of a word is a poor excuse, why?

You keep telling me to read your posts and then you fail to read mine or you choose to leave out words. I did not post that Matthew 26 is a prophecy I posted Matthew 26 is the fulfillment of a prophecy, which states the sheep will scatter when the shepherd is struck down.

As to your analysis of John 15, how did the branch become part of the vine in the first place? Once again you are interpreting Scripture in light of a favored doctrine and not in like of Scripture. What does "abide" mean? It means to live in and men can by free will choose to live outside of Jesus after they are saved thereby becoming apostate.

Okay since you want to wrangle over words. Lets start with NT:4624
skandalizo, which is used 30 times in the KJV NT. Tell me (Omega) how can ones right eye "offend" (Matthew 5:29) or how can a hand or foot "offend" (Matthew 18:8)? "Skandalizo" can mean "cause to stumble" or "depart". In Mathew 24 the word means to "depart" and in Matthew 26 it means to "cause to stumble".

NT:4624

skandalizoo;

to put a stumbling-block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall; to be a stumbling-block

a. to entice to sin Matthew 5:29
b. to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
c. to cause one to feel displeasure at a thing; to make indignant: Matthew 15:12
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

Now lets look at:

NT:868

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
a. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
a. to go away, to depart from anyone
b. to desert, withdraw from one
c. to fall away, become faithless
d. to shun, flee from
e. to cease to vex one
f. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
g. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Gre ... ubmit=Find

Now:

Luke 8:13
13 "And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. NAS

How does this correlate to:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS

There is no correlation between the two passages since in Luke 8 men leave due to temptation and in 1 Timothy men follow deceiftul spirits and doctrines of demons. You are trying to compare apples and oranges based on one Greek word while at the same time ignoring the context of the word's use.

Tell me (Omega) according to you when is a person saved? When they receive the word with joy and are baptised? If so then those in Luke 8:13 were saved and then departed because of tempation.

Now since you just love to use the phrase "saving faith" show me where this is used in Scripture.

[(Omega)]

The apostles "fell away" because they feared persecution not because they fell away from faith in Jesus Christ. And you are wrangling over words and not discussing the context of a full teaching.

Matthew 24:4-13

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

Those Jesus is talking about in Matthew 24 don't hide from fear and then return they actively persecute those who remain, which does not apply to what Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 26.

To state that Matt. 26 is merely a prophecy and should not be used to determine the correct interpretation of a word is a poor excuse, why?

You keep telling me to read your posts and then you fail to read mine or you choose to leave out words. I did not post that Matthew 26 is a prophecy I posted Matthew 26 is the fulfillment of a prophecy, which states the sheep will scatter when the shepherd is struck down.

You never run out, do you? "Those in Matthew 24 don't hide from fear and then return"? As I recall it was you who used the Strongs Concordance to prove that "offended" (fall away:NAS) referred to a departure from the faith. I simply responded using "Strongs Concordance" that the same word for "offended" used in Matt. 24 is found also in Matt. 26!

As to your analysis of John 15, how did the branch become part of the vine in the first place? Once again you are interpreting Scripture in light of a favored doctrine and not in like of Scripture. What does "abide" mean? It means to live in and men can by free will choose to live outside of Jesus after they are saved thereby becoming apostate.

Thats not what you said, you said that passage states that a believer can cease from producing fruits which I have disproved, so now you resort to your usual tactic of switching the basis of the argument. Those with free will who choose to live outside of Jesus and choose to walk away are those who do not abide in the vine. It is basically the same as bringing forth fruits and then becoming barren. Thats not what that passage says, it says that the barren and withered branch is discarded, not those that produce fruits. Those that produce fruits are "pruned" to bring forth more fruits. Either the branch branch produces fruit or is doesn't! It doesn't bring forth fruit and somehow become barren, because it is not found in that passage, it is pruned to increase production. How did the branch become part of the vine in the first place? Try considering that verse in context, a withered branch is obviously someone who doesn't belong to Christ because it is "discarded" and remains barren. If a withered branch being part of the vine is considered a saved person, it would not have been discarded and cast into the fire to be burned. It is cast into the fire because it is fruitless, do you consider a withered, fruitless branch someone who is saved?

Okay since you want to wrangle over words. Lets start with NT:4624
skandalizo, which is used 30 times in the KJV NT. Tell me (Omega) how can ones right eye "offend" (Matthew 5:29) or how can a hand or foot "offend" (Matthew 18:8)? "Skandalizo" can mean "cause to stumble" or "depart". In Mathew 24 the word means to "depart" and in Matthew 26 it means to "cause to stumble".

NT:4624

skandalizoo;

to put a stumbling-block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall; to be a stumbling-block

a. to entice to sin Matthew 5:29
b. to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
c. to cause one to feel displeasure at a thing; to make indignant: Matthew 15:12
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

Now lets look at:

NT:868

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
a. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
a. to go away, to depart from anyone
b. to desert, withdraw from one
c. to fall away, become faithless
d. to shun, flee from
e. to cease to vex one
f. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
g. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Gre ... ubmit=Find

Now:

Luke 8:13
13 "And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. NAS

How does this correlate to:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS

There is no correlation between the two passages since in Luke 8 men leave due to temptation and in 1 Timothy men follow deceiftul spirits and doctrines of demons. You are trying to compare apples and oranges based on one Greek word while at the same time ignoring the context of the word's use.

Tell me (Omega) according to you when is a person saved? When they receive the word with joy and are baptised? If so then those in Luke 8:13 were saved and then departed because of tempation.

Now since you just love to use the phrase "saving faith" show me where this is used in Scripture.

Again with the "Wrangling over words"? Are you trying to frustrate me? You want to talk about failure to interpret a word in the light of context, this is exactly what you have demonstrated. Both Matt. 5:29 and 18:8 DO NOT refer to what you call departation from the faith. Both Lk. 8:13 and 1 Tim. 4:1-5 uses the same greek word for "fall away", regardless of falling away to deceitful spirits or temptation, BOTH refers to a (falling away), according to YOU as previously stated in your posts. The point you fail to see is those verse prove that these people who fall away were actually saved to begin with, therefore your argument in comparing Matt. 5:29 and 18:8 to Lk. 8:13 and 1 Tim 4:1-5 is completely irrelevant, so whose the one comparing apples and oranges Aineo? Instead you bypass my point by switching arguments. Receiving the word of joy does not constitute as salvation, what your trying to say is that everyone who receives the word with joy are saved which is ludicrous, then you want to add baptism to that verse! People can receive the word "with joy" but fail to cat upon the Gospel, i.e., repentance, confession, etc... How many guest members do you see in Churches who "receive the word with joy" and upon leaving the church revert to their sinful lifestyle? When was this person saved?

God Bless!

[Aineo]

Don't play sophist (Omega) by avoiding a question with a question.

When is any individual saved? Your only argument against conditional security is that those who fall away did not have "saving faith" or "were never saved in the first place". So in order to determine how you can come to this conclusion we have to determine when a person is saved. Now if you accept Jesus as an authority He states in Matthew 24 "but he who endures to the end he shall be saved". So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.

Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
NAS

Why would Paul even think he could be disqualified, especially if he believed and taught OSAS?

Now can you tell me what your criteria is for "saving faith", after all you have added to Scripture by the use of "saving" and you have decided you can judge who is and is not saved based on some unknown subjective criteria not found in Scripture.

I seldom use Strong's since Strong's is not as good a lexicon as Thayers.

NT:4624

skandalizoo;

1. to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
a. to entice to sin
b. to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
1. to cause to fall away
2. to be offended in one, i.e. to see in another what I disapprove of and what hinders me from acknowledging his authority
3. to cause one to judge unfavourably or unjustly of another
c. since one who stumbles or whose foot gets entangled feels annoyed
1. to cause one displeasure at a thing
2. to make indignant
3. to be displeased, indignant
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Gre ... s&type=eng

You are the one who decided to post Greek words and there definitions from Strong's. Your the one who decided to compare how one Greek word can be used in another passage that has nothing to do with loosing or walking away from faith. In other words (Omega) you have decided that wrangling over words will prove your point but all you have done is attempt to obfuscate the discussion with irrelevant material that does not establish OSAS as God's revealed truth, which by the way is the same tactic used by cults or have you forgotten the debates with the oneness crowd.

Oh, and btw your comparison of modern churches to the fist century church is ludicrous and another attempt to obfuscate this discussion. I was not referring to guests who visit hear with joy since hearing and receiving are not the same. But if you want to use the modern church, how many people have you seen who walked the aisle, made a confession of faith, were baptized, and at some later date returned to their previous sinful habits?

[(Omega)]

Since you have decided to resort to personalities with this post and have chosen to ignore the posted rules for this thread, I have edited it out. I suggest you reread the opening post, any more posts that devolve into name calling with be deleted.

[(Omega)]

Since you have decided to resort to personalities with this post and have chosen to ignore the posted rules for this thread, I have edited it out. I suggest you reread the opening post, any more posts that devolve into name calling with be deleted.

Aineo, you know you couldn't answer my most recent response so you chose to delete the entire post, if you actually read your own posts then perhaps you can see for yourself that you are in fact doing the same.

[Aineo]

Now lets see if we can get this thread back on track minus the mud slinging.

Kenneth Perkins, one who has corresponded with me through e-mail, commented with much wisdom that, “ the idea of Eternal Security is that I should be able to know now that if I were to die I would be saved. This, however, is not the case; Jesus says that many will call Him "Lord" but not make it into the Kingdom. Second, if OSAS is true and those people who abandon the Church were never saved in the first place, how can we be confident that we are saved? Is it not possible that we are not truly saved since those other people were not truly saved even though they believed themselves to be? The OSAS position itself begs the question it is supposed to be able to answer: "How can we know that we're saved?" If we can't know until we've died and not renounced Jesus, how can I be sure now that I am saved? I think I am, but so did the apostates who left (who many who hold to OSAS believe were never saved). If the answer is that some people have left that were Bible-believing Christians, then how is Eternal Security true?”
http://eternalsecurity.us/assurance_and ... ptures.htm

Since "they were never saved in the first place" seems to be the only real response OSAS advocates use to respond to what both Jesus and Paul taught concerning those who "fall away" I think it is only logical for OSAS advocates to post their criteria for who is really saved and the above Internet site is a good place to start.

[(Omega)]

Notice how Jesus says in Matthew 7:23 "I (never) knew you", He doesn't say I once knew you! So those who call Him Lord, Lord could not have been saved in the first place.

[Aineo]

Since you have decided to resort to personalities with this post and have chosen to ignore the posted rules for this thread, I have edited it out. I suggest you reread the opening post, any more posts that devolve into name calling with be deleted.

Aineo, you know you couldn't answer my most recent response so you chose to delete the entire post, if you actually read your own posts then perhaps you can see for yourself that you are in fact doing the same.

Only in your perception did I resort to name calling. I did not accuse you of being a false teacher or a member of a cult, your anger at those who disagree with you took control and you assumed, which you do a lot, and as I demonstrated earlier you misquote me.

Now I am not going to respond to arguments based on semantics, I am not going to respond to your posts that try to refocus this thread so repeating irrelevant rhetoric that does not specifically deal with faith and salvation (the topics under discussion) will be ignored.

[Aineo]

Notice how Jesus says in Matthew 7:23 "I (never) knew you", He doesn't say I once knew you! So those who call Him Lord, Lord could not have been saved in the first place.

Ah, but those people Jesus is addressing thought they were saved. So tell me (Omega) how do you know you are saved and that those who fall away were never saved in the first place?

BTW, did you notice the gentelman I quoted made the same observation I did about waiting until death to know if you are saved? OSAS or Calvin's doctrine of eternal security is held by a minority of Christians so if I am a false teacher, which you accused me of being then so are all Christians who do not accept OSAS.

[(Omega)]

How do I know that I am saved Aineo?

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

"Ye may know" is in the perfect tense indicating that the person at the moment can be certain that he/she possesses Eternal Life through Genuine Belief. The assurance of the believer isn't based on their feelings, because people may feel saved, it is based on the principles of Gods word. We can know that we are saved because Christ dwells within our hearts (Col. 1:27; 1 John 5:12), by the witness of Gods word (1 John 5:10,11), because our prayers are answered (John 14:14; 1 John 5:14,15), because we are able to keep His commandments (2 Cor. 5:17; 1 John 5:18), and because we love our brethren (1 John 3:14).

We know that (we have passed) from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (1 John 3:14)

God Bless!

[Aineo]

You totally missed the point of my question. How many of those Jesus tells He never knew will quote the same Scripture you did and by doing so thought they were saved? I also wonder how many who Jesus rejects believe in eternal security (OSAS)?

[(Omega)]

You totally missed the point of my question. How many of those Jesus tells He never knew will quote the same Scripture you did and by doing so thought they were saved? I also wonder how many who Jesus rejects believe in eternal security (OSAS)?

I never said that I know those who were "never saved in the first place" when speaking for Christians in general, I appied it to the verses which teach that Genuine Believers can and will "fall away", just as you believe that people who "fall away" are saved in the first place. Verbal acknowledgment of His Lordship is in itself not enough to save the unbeliever apart from true repentance and living in obedience to the "will of God" as the normal course of his life. I follow what the scriptures teach, ponder this: Do you think that it is possible that the "many" who call Jesus Lord and are rejected on that day believed in Conditional Security, since Eternal Security is held by a minority of Christians?

God Bless!

[Aineo]

Do you think that it is possible that the "many" who call Jesus Lord and are rejected on that day believed in Conditional Security, since Eternal Security is held by a minority of Christians?

It is not only possible it is an absolute certainty that those Jesus tells He never knew accepted either conditional or eternal security as doctrine. The fact is conditional security, as a Protestant doctrine was developed to counter Calvin and his teachings. If you have studied the history of the Reformation you would know this. Wesley and Calvin were contemporaries and had many areas of disagreement.

I never said that I know those who were "never saved in the first place" when speaking for Christians in general, I appied it to the verses which teach that Genuine Believers can and will "fall away", just as you believe that people who "fall away" are saved in the first place.

However, instead of "they were never saved in the first place" you use "genuine believer" and without defining "genuine believer". What are your criteria for determining who is and who is not a "genuine believer"? Based on some of your comments anyone who disagrees with your theology is not a "genuine believer", while I don't label individuals who accept OSAS as not genuine in their beliefs, but find most of them misguided by a doctrine that cannot be establish in Scripture. This is especially true since Paul through the Holy Spirit explicitly states that some will "fall away" from the faith. Let me give you an example of how many Christians put personal beliefs above God’s truth.

Why were Sodom and the other cities of the plain destroyed? The vast majority of Christians will tell you it is because of Genesis 19:5. Well Genesis 19:5 might apply to Sodom but what about the other 3 cities? Now why were these cities destroyed? The answer is found in Ezekiel 16:49-50 and homosexual rape was not among the reasons God explicitly states, which were they “had arrogant, and abundant food, and careless ease but did not help the poor and needy”, which resulted in haughtiness and their practicing abominations.

But lets get back to “genuine believers” and OSAS. What is a “genuine believer” and why do you think such believers can never fall away or become apostate?

[(Omega)]

It is not only possible it is an absolute certainty that those Jesus tells He never knew accepted either conditional or eternal security as doctrine. The fact is conditional security, as a Protestant doctrine was developed to counter Calvin and his teachings. If you have studied the history of the Reformation you would know this. Wesley and Calvin were contemporaries and had many areas of disagreement.

Neither Calvinist, Protestant, Catholic, Methodist or Orthodox is the Final authority because as of this day there exists doctrinal discrepancies and variances within these Denominations. I disagree with the majority of Calvin's teachings and do not establish the doctrine of Eternal Security based on Calvin or any denomination, but on the principle of Gods word and the truth contained within.

However, instead of "they were never saved in the first place" you use "genuine believer" and without defining "genuine believer". What are your criteria for determining who is and who is not a "genuine believer"? Based on some of your comments anyone who disagrees with your theology is not a "genuine believer", while I don't label individuals who accept OSAS as not genuine in their beliefs, but find most of them misguided by a doctrine that cannot be establish in Scripture. This is especially true since Paul through the Holy Spirit explicitly states that some will "fall away" from the faith. Let me give you an example of how many Christians put personal beliefs above God’s truth.

Why were Sodom and the other cities of the plain destroyed? The vast majority of Christians will tell you it is because of Genesis 19:5. Well Genesis 19:5 might apply to Sodom but what about the other 3 cities? Now why were these cities destroyed? The answer is found in Ezekiel 16:49-50 and homosexual rape was not among the reasons God explicitly states, which were they “had arrogant, and abundant food, and careless ease but did not help the poor and needy”, which resulted in haughtiness and their practicing abominations.

But lets get back to “genuine believers” and OSAS. What is a “genuine believer” and why do you think such believers can never fall away or become apostate?

I never "labeled" any conditional security adherent as an unbeliever, so please do not make any assumptions, I do however believe that they are mislead. Now the Bible does not definitively prove that salvation can be lost, and neither does any of your responses. Aineo, you continually post the same argument time and again, and it is going in circles. Your entire premise is founded upon personal opinion and is not substantiated with scriptural exegesis but conjecture and incongruities. And I say again, it cannot be proven that when the Spirit speaks "expressly" that some (shall depart from) "fall away" {aphistemi}, were once saved! Furthermore it cannot be concluded that the person who "falls away" cannot return as with the Disciples in Matthew 26:31, which primarily refers to the disciples denial in knowing Christ, However we know that Peter himself said "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." which clearly expresses his belief in that passage, yet we also know that he "fell away" momentarily then returned, was Peter saved to begin with? The same is found in Luke 8:13 where one believes for a while and then "falls away" {aphistemi}. A person can have superficial belief in God, e.g., believe that Jesus is the Son of God as with Peter, believe that He rose from the dead and was born of a virgin and fall away, however it cannot be determined that they were saved to begin with. 1 Timothy 4:1 which states "the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith", this can apply to those who never acted upon the Gift of Salvation, i.e., they can confess with their mouths that Jesus is Lord, He died for their sins, rose again the third day and not act upon it. Salvation comes by responding to the message of the Gospel, understanding the nature of Christ's atonement, feel the guilt of conviction, love God, "obeyed from the heart" (Rom. 6:17) and surrender their wills to the offer of Salvation. A Genuine Believer has power over sin, has perseverance and continually does the "will of God" Secondly, I do not believe that a genuine believer can become apostate because the scriptures never state that the Spirit speaks "expressly" that some shall (lose their salvation) they once obtained. If a person " falls from grace", it is because he/she believes that they can earn their way to heaven by their own efforts (Galatians 5:4) The bible tells us to "strive" {agonizomai:to struggle or labor fervently} to enter in at the straight gate because many will try and not be able to (Lk. 13:24), this is because these people rely upon their own strengths and efforts to try and enter Heaven when in fact it is Christ in us who give us the power to endure, struggle an overcome (Phil. 4:13; 2 Cor. 13:4; 1 Pet. 1:5), because without Him we remain powerless (John. 15:5). Those who try and enter this way demonstrate that they have pride and do not put their trust in the Grace of God, which is a sign of unbelief.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

First of all I did not read your entire poste I stopped here:

I never "labeled" any conditional security adherent as an unbeliever, so please do not make any assumptions, I do however believe that they are mislead. Now the Bible does not definitively prove that salvation can be lost, and neither does any of your responses. Aineo, you continually post the same argument time and again, and it is going in circles.

The reason I continually post the same argument is that the Bible is the last word on any doctrinal discrepency and Jesus said that some will fall away as did Paul who added "from the faith". Paul also writes that apostasy will precede the Lord's return. The definition of apostasy is a departure from God's truth by those who once believed and practiced God's truth. So far all you have done is try to show that Jesus and Paul did not know God's will or to be blunt you are trying to show that both Jesus and Paul lied.

Now since we are saved by grace through faith, receive the Holy Spirit by faith, are justified and sanctified by faith the only logical and Biblical response to OSAS is that it is a false doctrine since OSAS appeals to the result of initial faith to establish a false doctrine.

Believe what you will (Omega) but have you considered the consequences to those who accept eternal security and do not "endure to the end" and live as overcomers?

I have had long conversations with OSAS advocates who in order to maintain this doctrine have said that once saved a man can become actively gay and still be saved and this in spite of Revelation 21:7 and other Scriptures. Now you may not personally believe what other OSAS advocates teach however the tragedy is there are those who believe and teach that eternal security means that after you are saved based on those Scritpures you appeal to can become carnal and practice sin with no eternal consequences, which is a false teaching that is in truth a doctrine of demons.

Conditional security is the only concept that does not deny God's revealed truth. And in spite of your rhetoric you have not proven otherwise.

[Aineo]

In anticipation of “you never respond to what I posted” I have taken the time to correct a couple of your personal interpretations, assumptions, and misunderstandings of KJ English.

It seems as if you are trying to find a loophole. I am going to restate what I said in my previous post, we are (SEALED) with the Holy Spirit, and how long are we sealed? "until the redemption of the purchased possession" The most common response in Conditional Security adherents is "free will can give back His gifts, OR he/she can choose to walk away" well it doesn't work here, why? In essence you are stating that the Holy Spirit which is sealed within the believer somehow departs because he/she no longer possesses saving faith, what is the duty of the Holy Spirit? - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (John 16:13) And when does the Holy Spirit come? "after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed." (Eph. 1:13)

It seems you have to add and subtract words to Scripture in order to prove your thesis. In the first sentence of the above quote you not only combined two Scripture but you also added and subtracted words. So lets looks at each in turn and in context where you took them out of context.

2 Corinthians 1:22

22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
KJV

Ephesians 1:13-14

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. KJV

Ephesians 4:30

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV

Do you understand the meaning of the word “earnest”? Most people don’t unless their pastor explains it or they check a dictionary. If not then do you understand the meaning of “escrow”? In dealing with contracts one party will sometimes be required to make an “earnest” (down payment) that is held in “escrow” until the contract is fulfilled. The “earnest” is usually held in a bank but the person who is due the promised work can also hold it. So the Holy Spirit is the down payment (earnest) of a promise (completed contract). In this case the completed contract is eternity with the Lord. Now either party to a contract can void the contract in which case the escrow account is closed (if deposited in a bank) and the money is refunded or the person holding it returns the “earnest”. So when a believer becomes apostate or falls away from the faith he returns the “earnest”, which in this case is the Holy Spirit.

Now lets deal with the word “sealed”. Sealed can have a couple of meanings. It can mean to seal a container or to seal a legal document. If used to seal a container the seal must be broken to open that container. So yes an apostate believer can return the earnest, which requires breaking the seal.

Now before you get all hyper about my use of legal concepts the New Testament is in fact a legal document or has it never entered your mind that “testament” is primarily used in legal matters? In fact a better translation of the original Greek is “covenant”.

So if anyone is looking for a loophole to avoid the real issue it is those who advocate OSAS since OSAS advocates attempt to redefine words to make their case.

One of the aspects of the Holy Spirit is His ability to convict a person of sin, and an unbelieving person who no longer possesses saving faith would therefore lose his/her conviction and belief in the Gospel. In other words, this person who is sealed by the Holy Spirit which convicts him/her of sin and guides the "believer" into all truth "until the day of redemption" somehow lose their belief and conviction, while the Holy Spirit remains (SEALED) within them. The Holy Spirit is referred to as the "Spirit of Truth" which is why those who possess saving faith endure, overcome and continue in their belief. The just will live by faith and God will take no pleasure in him IF he shrinks back "draw back" (Heb. 10:38. Who are the "IFS"? The person who "draws back" and the "just who live by faith" are not the same, because the next verse reads: "But we are not of them who (draw back) unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

For the above you have ignored one word in Ephesians 4:30 and that word is “grieve”. What grieves the Holy Spirit? This can be answered with one word and that word is sin. What happens when we sin? We can find the answer in 1 Thessalonians 5:19:

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22
19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil.
NAS

Sin quenches the Spirit, which if done long enough is when believers fall away and/or become apostate. As to your interpretation of Hebrews 10:38 I have already covered that.

So you see (Omega) your reasoning is filled with assumptions and a lack of understanding of Elizabethan English. And to anticipate the question what makes me think I understand Elizabethan English better than most people; the answer is I had a high school English teacher that made her class memorize portions of Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales in the original English, then recite it properly and then explain it in modern English.

The scriptures go hand in hand, example:
Q. Who is he that [uovercometh?[/u]/b]
A. He that [b]believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 John 5:5)
Q. What happens after he believeth (from the heart)
A. Ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13)

I have already dealt with both of these, the second Q&A in this post and the one concerning 1 John 5:5 in other posts but here it is again. You took 1 John 5:5 out of context, probably because it weakens you care.

1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? NAS

Our faith gives us victory so when a person looses their faith (falls away) then they no longer believe so your proof texts don’t defeat, disprove, or show that Jesus and Paul did not mean “genuine believers” would “fall away”. And btw, 1 John 5:5 does not contain “from the heart”. You pulled that phrase from Romans 10:9.

Romans 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. NAS

You see (Omega) what you OSAS advocates refuse to accept is that a person can “confess with their mouth and believe in their heart” and later recant that confession and disbelieve in their heart, or to use Jesus’ and Paul’s terminology “fall away” and to deny this is to deny human nature and deny mankind has free will.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace all..

I have something to add..

My wife, being a former baptist, was taught and still believes in OSAS.
I did some research with the main church or headquarters for the baptist denomination.

They base the belief of osas soley upon John 5:24, and no other verses.

NIV John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

KJV John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

NLT John 5:24 "I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Now, maybe I have trouble comprehending. But I dont see how the baptist denomination gets osas from this verse.

I have ran into many so-called baptists, who lead unmoral lives, and have been to church or opened their Bible in over a decade (seriously).

When you question them about it, they respond with, "Oh, I was saved when I was 13".

I am totally not kidding.
It just seems like to me, that some people use the teaching of osas as a license to sin. Basically saying, once your saved, you can go on living your life however you want, since your name has been written in the Book of Life.

This just doesn't fly with me for some reason.

Your thoughts?

He is Lord
Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Israel

[(Omega)]

Hello TSJ!

It just seems like to me, that some people use the teaching of osas as a license to sin. Basically saying, once your saved, you can go on living your life however you want, since your name has been written in the Book of Life.

I don't base OSAS on those scriptures alone, I base it upon the entire Bible. Furthermore, anyone who is born of God does not "practice sin".

Now before you get all hyper about my use of legal concepts the New Testament....

I wasn't about to get hyper Aineo, actually I completely agree with the legal concepts of the NT, however not your analogy.

And to anticipate the question what makes me think I understand Elizabethan English better than most people.....

I actually believe you, since your academic skills have been proven on this forum time and again, however your interpretation remains faulty.

I have taken the time to correct a couple of your personal interpretations, assumptions.....

Isn't that what you've been doing?
Your entire post is based on your primary argument which is "free will" or believers can "fall away" and become apostate which goes against the very nature of the (born again believer), however it doesn't take much to refute each and every one of your posts, since they evolve around these two concepts. The sealing of the Holy Spirit has a threefold significance in the New Testament: (1) to indicated ownership; (2) to indicate genuineness; (3) to preserve and keep safe (Eph. 4:30; 2 Tim. 2:19; Rev. 7:2,3) those in Rev. 7:2,3 which are (sealed) are “owned” by God and are kept from the power of the Devil, so you analogy of the word "sealed" is poorly dictated. Similar to this are those who receive the "mark of the beast", whereby those who receive are literally branded and the effects are irreversible. So in regards to those who are "of the devil", and receive the mark, are you implying that they by "free-will" can choose to walk away from the devil? And you cannot use the argument that God in this situation negates free will because this would be a contradiction to your argument. The Holy Spirit guarantees that the contract will be completed and cannot be retracted "until the redemption of the purchased possession", and your "free will" premise doen't work here and I will explain why further down my post. Your (NAS) translation is an excellent translation BTW, why? Because it further proves that the person who is (BORN OF GOD) does not "fall away", but "overcomes" (CONTINUALLY:present tense, active) with their belief. If he "falls away" by no longer believing, then he fails to overcome, how then is he Born of God? This belief is Genuine Belief because we know that even the demons believe (James 2:19)

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the (will of the flesh), nor of the (will of man), but of God. (John 1:13)

He still has "free will", however the born again believer is now God centered and conforms his will to Gods.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

The sealing of the Holy Spirit has a threefold significance in the New Testament: (1) to indicated ownership; (2) to indicate genuineness; (3) to preserve and keep safe (Eph. 4:30; 2 Tim. 2:19; Rev. 7:2,3) those in Rev. 7:2,3 which are (sealed) are “owned” by God and are kept from the power of the Devil, so you analogy of the word "sealed" is poorly dictated.

With all due respect (Omega) your attempt to show that once one is born again they can never practice sin is both ludicrous and denies human nature. Also since you accept a pre-trib rapture to appeal to Revelation 7:2ff is a bit hypocritical since this verse applies to the 144,000, which if you had not taken these 2 verses out of context you would have understood from verse 4. As to 2 Timothy 2:19, once again you have pulled one verse totally out of context. Read the whole teaching and you will discover that Paul is using a household as a metaphore that contains vessels some of which are for honor and some for dishonor. What household is Paul referring to?

Scripture states we are purchased with a price, which is true. But since the possessions that are purchased are human beings who have the ability to run away appealing to this truth does not prove your point.

Since Truth Seeker-Joshua also brought Baptists into the discussion lets look at the Southern Baptist Church and how it deals with sin. The SBC stands on OSAS and has the highest rate of divorce and remarriage than any other Christian denomination. Now if you accept Matthew 19 as definitive truth the SBC is supporting its members practicing adultery. So based on what you have posted you don't see divorced and remarried SBC's or any other divorced and remarried Christian as genuine believers because they "practice a sin".

The way you interpret being sealed by the Holy Spirit indicates one who is saved is sealed in a straight jacket or some rarified environment where they do not have to deal with tribulations that can lead genuine believers into apostasy or to totally deny the Lord and fall away from the faith, which denies what both Jesus and Paul taught a fact you have avoided by use of the phrase "genuine believer" and again without defining who is a "genuine believer". All you have to do to see the truth of Christians becoming apostates is to read the news. Mel White, Troy Perry, and a multitude of others who are genuine in their faith and even teach orthodoxy have become apostate by interpreting "love your neighbor" to include gay unions. Now you may deny these two men were genuine in their faith but I have met and talked with Troy Perry and I have read some of Mel White's articles before and after his defection to gay theology and your analysis of them from lack of real knowledge of who they are is both judgmental and wrong.

One reason there are so many theologies we have to wade through is because so many people proof text their doctrines by pulling verses out of context, which is what you have done and what the SBC and other denominations have done in an attempt to justify OSAS. As TSJ noted above their are many who believe in OSAS who were once genuine believers who have become comfortably apostate because of that doctrine.

[(Omega)]

First of all, where did you get the notion that I accept a pre-trib rapture, and secondly the 144,000 are "sealed" (sphragizo:for security or preservation, esp. from Satan) same word which is applied to the believers who are sealed with the Holy Spirit, indicating ownership. Pre-trib or not, that is a poor excuse to try and disprove my argument. Secondly I did not take 2 Timothy 2:19 out of context, the household refers to the Church, and "some to honour", and "some to dishonour" is parallel to the parable of the dragnet found in Matthew 13:47-52. The dragnet was pulled between two boats out into the water by a single boat and drawn to shore by ropes. In such a process all kinds of fish and other objects would be caught "together". The good were put in vessels, while the bad were cast away to be burned of fire (hell). The imagery is similar to the parable of the wheat and the tares, where the wheats (Genune Believers) and the tares (False Converts), they grow together as in the Church and are separated at the time of Harvest or Judgment. And once again, God stresses the security of His Church, i.e., "The Lord knoweth them that are his" (2 Tim. 2:19), the word know here indicates and intimate relationship or being acquainted with.

What makes you think that Mel White, Troy Perry, and a multitude of others whom you refer to as genuine in their faith were indeed saved? Do you know the depth of their hearts? According to your previous post, you explicitly stated:

So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.

You CANNOT, in NO WAY prove that "Genuine Believers" have become apostate as I have proven above. Your responses are filled with contradictions which shows that you are relying on personal opinion rather than scripture based facts, this can lead to self-deception. By ignoring the context of certain passages and subjecting it to speculation, you have set a snare for yourself. Then you use the term "Genuine Believers" as an example of how some have become apostate, then ask me to define what a Genuine Believer is and make the assumption that I may deny that Mel White and Troy Perry were in fact genuine believers? I'm beginning to wonder why your responses are so muddled, if you can come up with a legitimate response to your fallacious arguments then you can pull a rabbit out of a hat.

You nor I can label the SBC or any other divorced and remarried Christian someone who "practice sin". I was speaking in terms of individuals and NOT denominations or people as a whole, you of all people should have recognized this. Furthermore if you want to consider a person who gets divorced and remarried someone who sins "habitually", then you must take into consideration that the person who gets divorced and remarried does it habitually, more than once. The same could be said with someone who practices the sin of lying, he doesn't lie once, he habitually lies. So IF in fact a person gets divorced and remarried habitually or practices it, then YES, this person practices sin. I'm not sure those who believe in OSAS and where once genuine believers becoming apostate since you cannot prove that they were in fact saved. Secondly, what most SBC's teach is that regardless of a sinful lifestyle you cannot lose your Salvation, which distorts the Gospel, because the scriptures clearly teach that those who live according to the flesh WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. If your going to teach the word, don't teach a segment of it, teach the truth in its entirety.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

Where do I get the idea you are a pre-tribber; from prior posts on this and other message boards where you profess a pre-trib position.

Revelation 7:1-8
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.
NAS

Read Revelation 7:2ff in context and your use of vs. 2 & 3 does not support your thesis.

Once again (and maybe this time you will respond with an answer), what is a genuine believer, which by the way is just another way of stating "they were never saved in the first place".

Romans 10:1-15
10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks thus, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or' Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). " 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; 13 for "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!" NAS

A "genuine believer" is one who confesses with his mouth and believes in his heart that Jesus Christ is Lord. And regardless of what you have tried to prove (without success) is that "genuine believers" can and do cave under tribulation, which is what both Jesus and Paul have stated in plain terms will happen.

You see (Omega) only a "genuine believer" can become an apostate, which means they have fallen away from the faith resulting in loose of their salvation, another Biblical fact you have simply ignored in a vain attempt to promote a false doctrine.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, [color=darkred]except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

This one section of Scripture totally defeats and disproves OSAS, and I will save you the trouble of looking up the only other NT verse that uses the Greek word translated “falling away”:

Acts 21:21

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. KJV

[(Omega)]

Aineo, you have outdone yourself this time! Pre-Trib, Post-Trib, Mid-Trib, et al., that is irrelevant to the definition of the word "sealed" which is the same word applied to 144,000. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 the word for "falling away" is (apostasia), ap-os-tas-ee '-ah which literally means a defection from the truth or to forsake or abandon it. As I said before, a person could verbally acknowledge of the Lordship of Jesus Christ, however it is in itself not sufficient to save the unbeliever apart from genuine repentance and living in obedience to the "will of God" as the normal course of his life. The falling away can easily represent (false converts) as in the parable of the wheat and the tares. Adherence to a creed is not true faith. Even the demons know and even accept the truth of the creed, however if one does nothing to enact his knowledge of God, he is worse than the demons, for they at least tremble. And since you defined the meaning of "Genuine Believer" probably better than I could have, prove to me that those who depart from the faith were saved to begin with, or believed in "their hearts". What you or any Conditional Security adherent fail to prove is that those who "fall away" or "apostasize" were indeed saved to begin with. A person can defect from the truth and could have never obtained Salvation to begin with, because they failed to act upon the Gospel, i.e., repentance, confession, etc. You can search high and low and quote scriptures which cannot prove that Salvation can be lost (as with Acts 21:21) to tickle your ears and to establish your False Doctrine, and go back and forth til the 2nd coming of Christ if you wish, your will arguments continue to lack solidity and are based on personal opinion and wishful thinking.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

So now you are again calling Paul a liar and are again trying to ignore what apostate means. Seals can be broken, a fact you continue to refuse to accept. You know what is so interesting about your appealing to "seals" is how the Lord breaks the seven seals on the scroll in Revelation, which alone should prove that seals can be broken. No place in Scripture will you find any reference that states a "born again" Christian cannot break the seal of the Spirit and walk away from the Lord; in fact there are Scriptures that indicate the exact opposite. A person can indeed verbalize the lordship of Christ but if this is not from the heart then so what?

Do you think you can get past symantics and deal with concepts? Scripture plainly teaches that believers will both fall away from the faith and become apostate (which is made easier for those who believe and practice OSAS).

So far all you have done is establish the conditional promises given to believers are true, which I agree with. Most of the promises found in Scripture are conditional with the final promise being that only those who overcome will inherit the kingdom.

[(Omega)]

I find it odd how someone can be both intelligent and ignorant at the same time! How long are we sealed? "UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession" IF God breaks this seal before the purchased possession (redemption of the Body), then God breaks the promise which He has brought upon the Believer. Either your comprehension is slow today or you completely ignored my previous posts, so what if a person can indeed verbalize the lordship of Christ? Go back are re-read your quoted portion of how a "Genuine Believer" is defined, if there is no difference between an oral confession and belief from the heart, then even the demons are saved. Scriptures plainly teaches that believers will both fall away from the faith and become apostate, AND? An apostate is someone who defects from the Truth, once again, how does this prove that someone who departs from the truth is saved if the demons also possess the truth? Peter walked and talked with the Lord, and obtained knowledge, truth and wisdom of the Gospel during Jesus' ministry and even responded to Christ and acknowledged "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." which defined his belief, and later on we know that he momentarily "fell away" then returned to the Lord, are you trying to tell me that Peter was saved at that time? Don't accuse me of calling Paul and Jesus a liar with your vague interpretations.

[Aineo]

Tell me (Omega), when are you going to cease pulling phrases out of context?

Ephesians 1:14

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. KJV

Do I need to explain what "earnest" means again? It is not God who breaks the covenant or promise made to "genuine believers" it is the "genuine believer" who breaks the contract and rejects the promised possession, which is the meaning of apostate.

So far all you have done is beg the question by stating (without proof) that "genuine believers" cannot become apostate, which is simply using the usual OSAS defense "they were never saved in the first place".

Also if your only defense is to resort to name calling I suggest you retire from this thread until you can discuss Scripture with a cooler head and vocabulary.

[(Omega)]

My only defense? on the contrary Aineo, you haven't proved anything but gone in circles with unsubstantiated arguments which have been rebutted. But in your attempt to deny this, you resort to personal interpretation and opinion.

Do you know the meaning of "Until the redemption of the purchased possession"? You can use the legality of the covenant in an attempt to insert it into the context of that passage, that phrase "Until the redemption of the purchased possession" is translated as "Until God glorifies and perfects the believer[the purchased possession], whom He has bought by Christ's blood". To state that the believer can choose to reject the contract is ridiculous, since God is working within the believer to both Glorify and perfect him/her. You can go back and forth with your statement of "genuine believers" cannot become apostate, which is simply using the usual OSAS defense "they were never saved in the first place". However it is a legitimate question, and unless you can indubitably prove that the apostates in the passage formentioned were indeed saved, your rebuttals are ineffective. BTW, if you consider calling someone "ignorant" name calling, then try considering the vocabulary used in your posts found on this forum.

[Aineo]

Yes I do understand what this means:

"Until the redemption of the purchased possession"?

Now do you understand that pulling phrases or part of verses out of context is simply an attempt to avoid God's revealed truth? Notice how your capitalized "Until" and left out the the phrase that precedes "until"? You are trying to rewrite God's word. Here again is the full verse from your preferred translation.

Ephesians 1:14

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. KJV

There is ample proof that believers can and will become apostate, which you and all OSAS advocates try to avoid by using "they were never saved in the first place" or "they were not genuine believers", which is simply an opinon; an opinion you cannot back up with God's word.

As to the language I have used on this thread; I have not called you ignorant. I have labeled your tactics cultish and demonstrated how pulling Scripture out of context is used by cults and false teachers. Now if that bothers you then I suggest you cease pulling Scripture out of context.

[(Omega)]

Aineo, you obviously don't want to hear what the Word of God clearly states, you only want to hear what conforms to your opinion, that is considered truth according to you. Now anyone can look at that passage at face value and see for themselves that our "inheritance" is CLEARLY (GUARANTEED).

• who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory. (NIV)
• who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. (NAS)
• Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
• That [Spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it--to the praise of His glory. (AMP)
• The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us everything he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. This is just one more reason for us to praise our glorious God.
• who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Now you can define the word "pledge" or "earnest" according to legality of the Convenant if you wish and insert it into the context of this passage, however that passage in its proper context clearly states that our inheritance is guaranteed.

Pledge:ajrrabwvn arrhabon, ar-hrab-ohn'; of Hebrew origin 06162(); a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:--earnest.

God give us a promise that He will complete what He has begun in the believer, to both perfect and glorify him/her until our inheritance. (Eph. 14:14; Phil. 2:13) Your "free will" argument is getting quite old Aineo, since it is God working in us and comforming us to the image of His Son until the purchased possession. I am quite certain, actually a 100% sure you will ignore this as biblical fact and resort to your personal opinion and taking verses out of context as ususal.

There is ample proof that believers can and will become apostate, which you and all OSAS advocates try to avoid by using "they were never saved in the first place" or "they were not genuine believers", which is simply an opinon; an opinion you cannot back up with God's word.

As to the language I have used on this thread; I have not called you ignorant. I have labeled your tactics cultish and demonstrated how pulling Scripture out of context is used by cults and false teachers. Now if that bothers you then I suggest you cease pulling Scripture out of context.

Aineo, you can place me in the category of cults and false teachers if you wish, I have clearly backed up my argument without pulling scriptures out of context as you have clearly done. Furthermore, you keep repeating the same argument: "which you and all OSAS advocates try to avoid by using "they were never saved in the first place" or "they were not genuine believers", which is simply an opinon; an opinion you cannot back up with God's word." hmmm.... Right back at you, you haven't prove that those who "fall away" are saved to begin with. But I suppose that your opinion and personal interpretations are ALWAYS superior to mines and others on this forum.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, (BUT OF GOD). (John 1:13)

God Bless!

[Aineo]

Now you can define the word "pledge" or "earnest" according to legality of the Convenant if you wish and insert it into the context of this passage, however that passage in its proper context clearly states that our inheritance is guaranteed.

I did not insert anything into that passage, it has been there since Paul wrote the epistle, it is you have attempted to remove it.

Pledge:ajrrabwvn arrhabon, ar-hrab-ohn'; of Hebrew origin 06162(); a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:--earnest.

I have no debate with this definition. However, what you are choosing to ignore is that God is only half of the arrangement. Men by their actions must live up to the provisions of the offered possession.

Now when you can disprove what Jesus and Paul taught concerning those who will fall away you will have established your thesis but so far all you have done is side step these verses with "genuine believers" will not fall away, and without defining "genuine believer".

Your thesis seems to be once one is born again then human responsibility goes out the window, which denies the many warnings found in the NT concerning how Christians have to choose to do good and resist evil, which is known as "free will".

Lets take another look at what Jesus and Paul taught:

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. NAS

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS

There is no doubt that God is able to accomplish what He has started but if a "genuine believer" recants his faith then that believer has rejected God's plan of salvation, which is "we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Now you can post all the rhetoric you want but until you can show that both Jesus and Paul (who states the Spirit explicitly states) did not know what they were talking about you are fighting a loosing battle.

[(Omega)]

I did not insert anything into that passage, it has been there since Paul wrote the epistle, it is you have attempted to remove it. I have no debate with this definition. However, what you are choosing to ignore is that God is only half of the arrangement. Men by their actions must live up to the provisions of the offered possession.

Now when you can disprove what Jesus and Paul taught concerning those who will fall away you will have established your thesis but so far all you have done is side step these verses with "genuine believers" will not fall away, and without defining "genuine believer".

Your thesis seems to be once one is born again then human responsibility goes out the window, which denies the many warnings found in the NT concerning how Christians have to choose to do good and resist evil, which is known as "free will".

Lets take another look at what Jesus and Paul taught:

Aineo, you keep asking me to define the term "Genuine Believer" when you already have. Change begins from within, the Bible never explicitly states that those who have obtained Salvation "Genuine Believers" (Rom. 10:9) can lose it, or have the propensity to forfeit it. A person can know the truth, take hold of it and fail to act upon it, conversion comes through confession, repentance, etc...and not just oral confession. There are numerous historians that actually believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world and acknowledge this, however without the person having a change of heart from within, they remain unregenerate. Humans can indeed choose between Good and Evil and by free will choose to walk away, but the very nature of the "born again believer" is that he/she conforms his/her will to that of Gods, prompted by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the empowerment of God within us (2 Cor. 13:4; 2 Cor. 5:17), no longer living according to the lusts of the flesh, the will of man, but to the will of God. He is a new creature, i.e., when a man comes into vital union with the risen and glorified Lord, he is a "new creation" (John 3:3; 15:5; Rom. 8:1,9; Gal. 6:14,15) and perceives Christ in a new way. "Old things are passed away", the aorist tense indicates a decisive break with the old life at the moment of Salvation, his/her "free will" is now God centered due to their new nature in Christ. "Behold, all things are become new" which literally means (new things have come to be)., Paul changes to the perfect tense to stress the abiding results of the Christian's union with Christ. You see Aineo, Satan can in fact use the Doctrine of Eternal Security within denominations to lead men and women to perdition by telling a half-truth, that is one can continue to live a sinful lifestyle and anticipate their entrance into the Kingdom. By doing so, he can distort and convolute the truth of the guaranteed security of the trusted believer, this can also be applied to major false doctrines which teach half-truths wholeheartedly. The bible is consistent in its teaching of the reborn and regenerate person who is in Christ, the very argument that a born again believer can by "free will" may choose to walk away, can "fall away" or become apostate goes against the very nature of re-birth. The scriptures clearly teach that those who "fall away" have no (ROOT) [Lk. 8:13], that is, the Gospel fails to take effect. The word "root" (rhiza) is used as a metaphor for an offspring, so in the context of this verse, a person who has no root is a person who is not "born of God", or regenerated from within.

Again with (1 Timothy 4:1-5)

Aineo, you continually post the same argument time and again, and it is going in circles. Your entire premise is founded upon personal opinion and is not substantiated with scriptural exegesis but conjecture and incongruities. And I say again, it cannot be proven that when the Spirit speaks "expressly" that some (shall depart from) "fall away" {aphistemi}, were once saved! Furthermore it cannot be concluded that the person who "falls away" cannot return as with the Disciples in Matthew 26:31, which primarily refers to the disciples denial in knowing Christ, However we know that Peter himself said "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." which clearly expresses his belief in that passage, yet we also know that he "fell away" momentarily then returned, was Peter saved to begin with? The same is found in Luke 8:13 where one believes for a while and then "falls away" {aphistemi}. A person can have superficial belief in God, e.g., believe that Jesus is the Son of God as with Peter, believe that He rose from the dead and was born of a virgin and fall away, however it cannot be determined that they were saved to begin with.

An example of unsaved people who can "fall away" from the faith is found in (1 John 2:19),

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)

Some were in the church, but have now departed, were never really part of it. Here is a clear distinction between those who merely appear to be Christians, based on outward affiliation, and those who really are, whom the Lord claims as His own (1 Cor. 8:3; Gal. 4:9; 2 Tim. 2:19). Now conditional security adherents may argue that those who depart from the faith tend to do it as individuals and not as a group. However that argument is based on personal opinion rather than prooftexting, because more than one individual departing from the faith can be considered a group.

Scriptures interpret scriptures! Ephesians 1:14 guarantees that our inheritance is secured until the redemption of our bodies, and other passages substantiate this as biblical fact.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

The portrayal of our salvation looks to the future. The author of salvation is portrayed as the blessed God and Father of your Lord Jesus Christ. The work of salvation (3-5) is described as to its effect. Hath begotten us again refers to a new stage of life that begins at salvation. The Lively hope has no aspect of uncertainty, for it is guaranteed by Jesus' resurrection from the dead. The believers inheritance is described as incorruptible (aphtharton), imperishable or indestructible, and undefiled, i.e., morally untainted. That fadeth not away (amaranton), which means that it is not subject to the ravages of time. Furthermore, it is reserved (teteremenen: perfect tense), i.e., it has been preserved in the past and still is in heaven. Kept (present, passive participle) which indicates that we are secure because we are continually guarded by God, who never relaxes His vigil. Now you can go back to your usual argument that a believer can by "free will" choose to impart the gift of salvation by living a sinful lifestyle or becoming apostate, however the bible wholly depicts a Salvation which is both warranted and guaranteed by God Himself who pledges to both glorify and perfect the believer until our purchased possession. Why do I choose to debate with you on the subject of Conditional Security VS Eternal Security when I am 100% certain that you will remain adamant in your stand and maintain the same disposition in the false doctrine of conditional security? Perhaps I believe that you may have a change of heart!.........or maybe not.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

Aineo, you keep asking me to define the term "Genuine Believer" when you already have. Change begins from within, the Bible never explicitly states that those who have obtained Salvation "Genuine Believers" (Rom. 10:9) can lose it, or have the propensity to forfeit it. A person can know the truth, take hold of it and fail to act upon it, conversion comes through confession, repentance, etc...and not just oral confession.

I know what the Bible says about how one is saved, however you have yet to post who you believe are "genuine believers".

What you are also ignoring is all the warnings in Scripture that indicate (actually prove) that "genuine believers" can and will fall away from the faith (if not the truth) and/or become apostate.

Romans 11:19-24
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? NAS

I can fill this post with similar warnings but why waste the server space when OSAS advocates bend over backwards to label these warnings either rhetorical or not applicable to “genuine believers”?

You know (Omega) if “genuine believers” cannot fall away from the faith then why does Paul go to the trouble of warning the church (not those outside the church) about the consequences of faithlessness?

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

What is interesting about what you emphasize in Scriptures like the above is Jesus and Paul taught about the consequences of falling away and falling away from the faith. According to Peter in 1 Peter 1:5 the power of God is through faith.

As to your 1 John 2:19 he does not address those who become apostate since an apostate does not necessarily depart but willfully sins and many who willfully sin appeal to OSAS as their get out of the lake of fire free card.

Acts 14:19-22

19 But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the multitudes, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead. 20 But while the disciples stood around him, he arose and entered the city. And the next day he went away with Barnabas to Derbe. 21 And after they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God." NAS

Another interesting aspect (at least to me) of this eternal vs. conditional security debate is that eternal security advocates totally ignore one word in Scripture and that one word is “faith”.

I accepted OSAS for decades since I was raised attending the Presbyterian Church, which is based on 5 point Calvinism. When I started my ex-gay journey the PCUSA was teaching a liberal social gospel so I moved to the Southern Baptist Church, which also teaches OSAS. It was while attending SBC churches I changed my position.

If a person is saved but then two years later they
1. Reject Jesus Christ
2. Become a Satan worshipper
3. Commit sins worse than Adolph Hitler
4. Live this way for the next 50 years
5. They go to their grave blaspheming God and declaring their hatred for Him and also declare their love and loyalty to Satan.
I asked if they thought this hypothetical person was still saved and their answer was yes they are still saved. I knew then that the OSAS teachers have rejected all aspects of Biblical thinking.
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jeff.htm

I asked a similar question (although not so extreme) of members of the SBC church I attended only I used gay members of the church I attended in my question. My question was particularly relevant to this particular congregation because their dearly beloved minister of youth (who was the brother of another minister on staff) came out as gay during a Sunday service and resigned his position. I asked if this minister was still saved and was told yes because “once saved always saved”, which totally denies 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and other Scriptures. So I asked them why any professing gay Christian should try to change. They quickly changed the subject and I changed churches. And by the way this was not a rhetorical question at least for that congregation since beside the gay youth minister two of the members were well known out and proud very wealthy gay doctors. All three gay men “confessed with their mouth and believed in their heart that Jesus Christ is Lord”, which is the Biblical description of a “genuine believer” who is an apostate.

So now (Omega) or any other OSAS advocate would you care to address the real issue under debate and that issue can be summed up in one word and that word is “faith”.

And no (Omega) I will not change my position since I have been there and found the doctrine of eternal security both false and not based on God’s inerrant infallible word since if I accepted OSAS I would be promoting gay theology and fighting homophobic Christians who don't practice "love your neighbor as yourself".

[(Omega)]

I know what the Bible says about how one is saved, however you have yet to post who you believe are "genuine believers".

What you are also ignoring is all the warnings in Scripture that indicate (actually prove) that "genuine believers" can and will fall away from the faith (if not the truth) and/or become apostate.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from (the faith), giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1 Timothy 4:1)

A "genuine believer" is someone who is saved and you have yet to actually prove that someone who have once obtained Salvation can actually lose it. I have explained it many times on this thread that there is a major distinction between just belief and a belief that saves, read the book of James where there is a clear distinction between the belief that demons possess and the belief that actually saves a person. What you and all Conditional Security adherents are complete blinded to is the clear distinction between departing or falling away from "THE FAITH" and having faith! What is considered "The faith?" You use the example of how gay theologists take scriptures out of context with "love your neighbor as yourself" to justify homosexuality, which is exactly what you and other conditional security adherents have done with the phrase "THE FAITH". In the context of those passages, "the faith" clearly does not indicate personal faith because muslims, atheists, agnostics, satanists, et al. can depart from (the faith) while never possessing faith in the first place. Now context is usually if not always determined by the words that precede or follow the word being defined, the word for "faith" (pistis) can refer to (conviction of the truth) OR (the religious belief of Christians). Since "the" is not a personal pronoun, the context of that verse cannot refer to a personal conviction of the truth but rather the religious belief of Christianity. In order for someone to depart or fall away from the faith in the first place is that they must first possess it, right? WRONG! An atheist can easily join a church, listen to the religious belief and creeds of Christianity and depart from it, i.e., "the faith!"

can fill this post with similar warnings but why waste the server space when OSAS advocates bend over backwards to label these warnings either rhetorical or not applicable to “genuine believers”?

You know (Omega) if “genuine believers” cannot fall away from the faith then why does Paul go to the trouble of warning the church (not those outside the church) about the consequences of faithlessness?

Why does Paul go through the trouble of warning the Church and not those outside the Church?

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5)

Except ye be reprobates (Unless you are counterfeits). The challenge Paul had brought about was to ascertain whether they are genuine believers or fakes. We are not reprobates, regardless of how the Corinthians came out in the test, they are assured that Paul was genuine. Notice they play on words between proof (dokimen:evidence) and reprobates (adokimoi:counterfeits). And to say that this doesn't apply to modern day Christians is to say that Paul's warnings of departing from the faith neither applies to Christians of today.

What is interesting about what you emphasize in Scriptures like the above is Jesus and Paul taught about the consequences of falling away and falling away from the faith. According to Peter in 1 Peter 1:5 the power of God is through faith.

As to your 1 John 2:19 he does not address those who become apostate since an apostate does not necessarily depart but willfully sins and many who willfully sin appeal to OSAS as their get out of the lake of fire free card.

An apostate is someone who defects from the truth, do you challenge this definition?

FALLING AWAY:ajpostasiva apostasia, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.
Those in 1 John 2:19 departed from the faith. Furthermore I don't appreciate your constant insinuations of how OSAS adherents using that doctrine as an excuse to escape the lake of fire. Your hostility towards those who adhere to this doctrine is noted.

Another interesting aspect (at least to me) of this eternal vs. conditional security debate is that eternal security advocates totally ignore one word in Scripture and that one word is “faith”.

I accepted OSAS for decades since I was raised attending the Presbyterian Church, which is based on 5 point Calvinism. When I started my ex-gay journey the PCUSA was teaching a liberal social gospel so I moved to the Southern Baptist Church, which also teaches OSAS. It was while attending SBC churches I changed my position.

I asked a similar question (although not so extreme) of members of the SBC church I attended only I used gay members of the church I attended in my question. My question was particularly relevant to this particular congregation because their dearly beloved minister of youth (who was the brother of another minister on staff) came out as gay during a Sunday service and resigned his position. I asked if this minister was still saved and was told yes because “once saved always saved”, which totally denies 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and other Scriptures. So I asked them why any professing gay Christian should try to change. They quickly changed the subject and I changed churches. And by the way this was not a rhetorical question at least for that congregation since beside the gay youth minister two of the members were well known out and proud very wealthy gay doctors. All three gay men “confessed with their mouth and believed in their heart that Jesus Christ is Lord”, which is the Biblical description of a “genuine believer” who is an apostate.

So now (Omega) or any other OSAS advocate would you care to address the real issue under debate and that issue can be summed up in one word and that word is “faith”.

And no (Omega) I will not change my position since I have been there and found the doctrine of eternal security both false and not based on God’s inerrant infallible word since if I accepted OSAS I would be promoting gay theology and fighting homophobic Christians who don't practice "love your neighbor as yourself".

Believed in their hearts? How do you know this? How do you know that these SBC members believed within their hearts, in all honesty it sounds a bit hypocritical and arrogant? Only God and God alone is able to search the hearts (Rom. 8:27; Rev. 2:23) The OSASavers who willfully sin and teach the doctrine as an excuse to avoid the lake of fire are false converts and hypocrites. Feel free to call them apostates because the definition fits to a tee, however I truly hope that you are not in any way insinuating that I am a person who willfully sins or is an apostate. I personally know many (including me) who uphold the doctrine of eternal security who are wholeheartedly devoted to God, who flee from sin, feed the indigent, clothe the naked and love their enemies and even pray for them. Just as you have once believed in OSAS, I once believed in Conditional Security until I searched the scriptures for MYSELF and discovered that it is one of the most deceptive doctrines in the Christian world. You keep using the SBC as a standard for OSASavers which is quite lame since not everyone who adheres to the eternal security doctrine are southern baptists. If the SBC actually believes that you can commit sins listed on the roster and still enter heaven, then they have turned the grace of God into lasciviousness, this is not what all OSASavers believe, it is primarily the SBC denomination. Now as for the broken branches of Rom. 11:22, the broken branches do not refer to believers who lost their faith or salvation, a broken branch refers to an unbeliever that never was saved nor was a believer. The broken branches refer to the Jews or the unbelief of Israel, NOT Christians who once possessed faith and then lost it, the Gentiles found favor with God here because of their belief. You dance around my questions by answering them with your own and assume that I haven't made my case when this entire thread is filled with rebuttals to your fallacious and erroneous arguments. You won't change your position and neither will I.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

[quote="(Omega)]A "genuine believer" is someone who is saved and you have yet to actually prove that someone who have once obtained Salvation can actually lose it. I have explained it many times on this thread that there is a major distinction between just belief and a belief that saves, read the book of James where there is a clear distinction between the belief that demons possess and the belief that actually saves a person.[/quote]You opening statement is interesting since the way question you have not answered is how one can fall away from something they never possessed. Therefore in order to cut through all the rhetoric you have posted in an attempt to avoid this one simple question do you think you can respond to it in your next post?

As to Paul's admonition in 1 Corinthians I don't see your point since he wrote that statement to all those in the church at Corinth. Also you once again pulled one verse out of context:

2 Corinthians 13:1-7
13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.

4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.KJV

Also this does not prove your point since Paul wrote of himself:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
NAS

Or since you prefer the KJ:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. KJV

You asked how I know those SBC members who willfully sinned were "genuine believers", which simply begs the question and raises this question how do you know they were not? How do you know if any person who:

Romans 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. KJV

; is really saved if your only defense to examples of those who willfully sin is they were not genuine believers?

I understand James makes a clear distinction concerning simple belief, however James does not address "confessing with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord", which no demon will do. Yes demon's know who Jesus Christ is but as you pointed out their are historians who think they know who Jesus was and are not Christians.

I notice you are again playing the semantic's card, which again is simply begging the question based on a common sense understanding of a clear English translation of Matthew 24 and 1 Timothy 4. You have also posted a good definition of apostate but continue to argue that "genuine believers" cannot become apostate, which again is begging the question and denying the definition you posted. In other words (Omega) you are contradicting yourself.

Now context is usually if not always determined by the words that precede or follow the word being defined, the word for "faith" (pistis) can refer to (conviction of the truth) OR (the religious belief of Christians).

This is an incorrect statement since "context" involves taking all the words of a teaching into consideration, which you try to avoid doing by pulling one verse or a partial verse out of a sentence or a paragraph.

[(Omega)]

You opening statement is interesting since the way question you have not answered is how one can fall away from something they never possessed. Therefore in order to cut through all the rhetoric you have posted in an attempt to avoid this one simple question do you think you can respond to it in your next post?

Rhetoric? Hmmm....More like your misunderstanding of the words being construed, do you read my posts or just skim through them?
Luke 8:13 uses "fall away" (aphistemi) and 1 Timothy 4:1 uses "shall depart from" also (aphistemi)
Fall away; shall depart from:ajfivsthmi aphistemi, af-is'-tay-mee; from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

Where does it actually state that those who "fall away or depart" from the faith actually possessed it? To fall away or depart from the faith is to remove oneself or withdraw from the Christian Doctrine, do you deny that a person can withdraw from the Christian Doctrine without possessing faith? I made several examples of how this is done in my previous post and you chose to ignore it and resort to your personal opinion of how a certain passage should be translated and at the same time accuse me of taking it out of context, when in fact you refused to understand it in "Plain English" (THE) is not a personal pronoun and your excuse "context" involves taking all the words of a teaching into consideration is absurd since this is exactly what you have overlooked regarding the nature of re-birth. THE FAITH clearly refers to the Christian Doctrine and not personal faith or conviction of God, in your attempts to deny this simple logic you reach for another loophole.

As to Paul's admonition in 1 Corinthians I don't see your point since he wrote that statement to all those in the church at Corinth. Also you once again pulled one verse out of context:

My point? Of course Paul made that statement to all those in the church in Corinth, however not every member of the congregation can be positively identified as genuine believers, which is why Paul made such a statement that they are to examine themselves to ensure whether they were in fact genuine believers and not counterfeits, the counterfeits would fail when put to the test. This is the reason why Paul gave stern warnings of the possibility of departing from the faith.

Also this does not prove your point since Paul wrote of himself:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
NAS

LOL Aineo, I answered this in my previous post which you deleted:

"lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified", Paul did not fear losing his Salvation, his matter was still Christian liberty. The point that is being made is not the possibility of losing ones salvation, but rather the Christian must discipline himself to avoid both being disqualified from Christian ministry and forfeiting their rewards for such service. The entire Chapter concerns his ministry, furthermore Paul himself declared in 2 Timothy 1:12 that he was persuaded (peitho) in the perfect tense, i,e., in the past and remains so now that (God is able to keep) referring to the assurance of salvation which is committed against that day. If that passage referred to Paul fearing that his salvation may be lost, then Paul is not only fickle but he also contradicts himself.

You asked how I know those SBC members who willfully sinned were "genuine believers", which simply begs the question and raises this question how do you know they were not? How do you know if any person who:

Nice, a question with a question. I'm not going to avoid answering the question, the bible clearly teaches that a someone who is born of God cannot lose their Salvation and goes against the very nature of rebirth and a regenerate heart. In 1 Cor. 1:8 it states that Christ will confirm (strengthen, establish, make firm) us and present us blameless in the day of the Lord, God foreknew and predestined the believer to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29; Gal. 4:19). The power of God works within the born again believer (Eph. 1:19; 3:14-21). In your very own words:

This is an incorrect statement since "context" involves taking all the words of a teaching into consideration, which you try to avoid doing by pulling one verse or a partial verse out of a sentence or a paragraph.

is really saved if your only defense to examples of those who willfully sin is they were not genuine believers?

I understand James makes a clear distinction concerning simple belief, however James does not address "confessing with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord", which no demon will do. Yes demon's know who Jesus Christ is but as you pointed out their are historians who think they know who Jesus was and are not Christians.

I notice you are again playing the semantic's card, which again is simply begging the question based on a common sense understanding of a clear English translation of Matthew 24 and 1 Timothy 4. You have also posted a good definition of apostate but continue to argue that "genuine believers" cannot become apostate, which again is begging the question and denying the definition you posted. In other words (Omega) you are contradicting yourself.

Because these historians also acknowledge that Krishna, Mithra and other religious figure are one in the same!

Tell me Aineo, Do you consider this person "Born Again" since he believes that Jesus is the Son of God? Secondly, you keep quoting Matthew 24 which keeps bringing me back to a pervious post you commented on:

So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.

According to you in plain english, if this is the case then none of us are saved or have the possibility of losing our salvation until the end, LOL!
And again with 1 Timothy 4? I have already explained in "PLAIN ENGLISH" how you and other conditional security adherents personal interpretations have completely taken that passage out of context.

[Aineo]

You opening statement is interesting since the way question you have not answered is how one can fall away from something they never possessed. Therefore in order to cut through all the rhetoric you have posted in an attempt to avoid this one simple question do you think you can respond to it in your next post?

Rhetoric? Hmmm....More like your misunderstanding of the words being construed, do you read my posts or just skim through them?
Luke 8:13 uses "fall away" (aphistemi) and 1 Timothy 4:1 uses "shall depart from" also (aphistemi)
Fall away; shall depart from:ajfivsthmi aphistemi, af-is'-tay-mee; from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

Where does it actually state that those who "fall away or depart" from the faith actually possessed it? To fall away or depart from the faith is to remove oneself or withdraw from the Christian Doctrine, do you deny that a person can withdraw from the Christian Doctrine without possessing faith? I made several examples of how this is done in my previous post and you chose to ignore it and resort to your personal opinion of how a certain passage should be translated and at the same time accuse me of taking it out of context, when in fact you refused to understand it in "Plain English" (THE) is not a personal pronoun and your excuse "context" involves taking all the words of a teaching into consideration is absurd since this is exactly what you have overlooked regarding the nature of re-birth. THE FAITH clearly refers to the Christian Doctrine and not personal faith or conviction of God, in your attempts to deny this simple logic you reach for another loophole.

THE FAITH clearly refers to the Christian Doctrine? Show me in Scripture where Christian Doctrine saves mankind? How are we saved?

Romans 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. NAS

Ephesians 2:1-10
2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. NAS

All cults are doctrine driven and all cult members put their faith in doctrine not the Lord. The WOF movement, Catholicism, the Orthodox faiths, Mormon’s, JW’s, and etc. are all doctrine driven and all of these put their faith in false doctrines that contradict God’s inerrant truth as revealed in His word.

1 Timothy 4
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. 7 But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; 8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. 10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 11 Prescribe and teach these things. 12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. 13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. 14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed upon you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress may be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will insure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. NAS

Titus 1:5-9
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. 7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. NAS

You disagree with what I posted concerning how you have pulled verses and portions of verses out of context so lets take another look at one of your feeble attempts to appeal to semantics.

Mark 14:27-31

27 And Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away, because it is written, 'I will strike down the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.' 28 "But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee." 29 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away, yet I will not." 30 And Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you, that you yourself this very night, before a cock crows twice, shall three times deny Me." 31 But Peter kept saying insistently, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!" And they all were saying the same thing, too.
NAS

Jesus tells the apostles they will fall way however He also tells them he will go before them to Galilee. The context of what Jesus said regarding the apostles falling away is not used in the same context as:

Matthew 24:4-14
…"See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.
NAS

In Matthew 24:10ff those who fall away will actively persecute those who do not fall way. The context of how Jesus uses “fall away” must be taken into consideration to fully and correctly understand what Jesus said.

How is one born again?

John 3:1-15
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Him by night, and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things? 11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and you do not receive our witness. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. 14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.
NAS

1 Peter 1:3-9

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. NAS

Once we are born again we live by faith not by manmade doctrines since:

Romans 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."
NAS

Galatians 2:20-21
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me. 21 "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
NAS

Galatians 3:11-14
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"-- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NAS

Hebrews 10:32-39

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
NAS

Hebrews 11:1-6
11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. NAS

I don’t see any teaching in Scripture where we are told to put our faith in doctrines. In fact when any denomination or person elevates doctrine to the level of law they deny salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Once we are born again all things become new. However, this does not mean old things are not still around us to tempt us. There is no Scripture that guarantees those who are born again will not revert to old things when they encounter tribulation, in fact Scripture teaches the exact opposite. Jesus said:

John 16:31-33
31 Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe? 32 "Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. 33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." NAS

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. NAS

Peter puts it this way:

2 Peter 2
2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8(for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, 11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15 forsaking the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness, 16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression; for a dumb donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet. 17 These are springs without water, and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. 18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." NAS

Now before you jump on the “if” in vs. 20 and claim that genuine believers cannot again be entangled and overcome take a long hard look at how Peter uses “if” in vs. 4 through 10. God did judge the angels, those living prior to the flood, the people in the cities of the plain, and did rescue Lot.

Paul, Peter, and John emphasize faith in Jesus the Christ not doctrines developed over time by men who are continually learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

The key to living a life that is pleasing to God and leads to salvation is to live by faith in Jesus Christ because anything else leads to destruction.

Once one is born again they begin a new journey through life, a journey that is completed by exercising faith in Jesus Christ not be exercising faith in manmade doctrines or theologies that in effect contradict and deny God’s inerrant truth. To use Paul’s analogy after being born again we enter a race and only those who complete the race will be rewarded. Being born again is the initial step in a long race that is not finished until death or the Lord returns.

Now the Spirit explicitly tells us in 1 Timothy that some will fall away from the faith; the Spirit does not tells us that some will fall away from a theology or compilation of doctrines.

According to you in plain english, if this is the case then none of us are saved or have the possibility of losing our salvation until the end, LOL!
And again with 1 Timothy 4? I have already explained in "PLAIN ENGLISH" how you and other conditional security adherents personal interpretations have completely taken that passage out of context.

You do like to interpret what I post as well as God's word. My position is that all born again believers have the ability to denounce their faith and by doing so loose their salvation. I have never claimed that no one is saved. As to your charge that I have used 1 Timothy 4 out of context that is a ludicrous statement since I am not the one who tried to eliminate one phrase out of vs. 1; you did.

Philippians 2:12-18

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 that you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all. 18 And you too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.
NAS

Why did Paul instruct the Philippians to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" if their salvation was assured because of eternal security? Just when does taking personal responsibility for life's decision go out the window in your theology?

[(Omega)]

Aineo, if you fail to understand what departing from the faith actually means after reading this post, then your ears are "Dull of Hearing", and I say this in a brotherly way and not to antagonize you.

Your entire post in no way proves that Salvation can be lost, but is rather a description defining how someone is born again, and a vain attempt at trying to disprove what I have utterly refuted with adequate definition of the words being discussed and in the EXACT context it is used. I'm going to explain 1 Timothy 4 in a way which should be easily understood, and in plain english, common sense and sound reasoning.

THE FAITH clearly refers to the Christian Doctrine? Show me in Scripture where Christian Doctrine saves mankind? How are we saved?

I know how we are saved Aineo, although well articulated, I don't need an entire sermon on how it is accomplished, but thanks anyways! Now where does it actually state in scripture that the "SAVED" actually depart from the Christian Doctrine? Forgive me for using the word Doctrine as the exact interpretation of "THE FAITH", nevertheless I will demonstrate how my rebuttal remains Tried, Tested and True!

All cults are doctrine driven and all cult members put their faith in doctrine not the Lord. The WOF movement, Catholicism, the Orthodox faiths, Mormon’s, JW’s, and etc. are all doctrine driven and all of these put their faith in false doctrines that contradict God’s inerrant truth as revealed in His word.

1 Timothy 4
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. 7 But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; 8 for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. 10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 11 Prescribe and teach these things. 12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. 13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. 14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed upon you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress may be evident to all. 16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will insure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. NAS

Titus 1:5-9
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. 7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. NAS

Aineo, please read the words that precede "sound doctrine", it says words of (the faith) What is the faith? Are trying to imply that (the faith) refers to a personal conviction of the truth? Where are the "words" derived from? Common sense tell us that it is derived from the Word of God. And what does sound doctrine mean? Sound: hugiaino, hoog-ee-ah'-ee-no; from 5199; to have sound health, i.e. be well (in body); figuratively, to be uncorrupt (true in doctrine):--be in health, (be safe and) sound, (be) whole(-some). Doctrine: didaskalia, did-as-kal-ee'-ah; from 1320; instruction (the function or the information):--doctrine, learning, teaching. Perhaps my definition of "faith" wasn't so clear after all, so lets see the proper definition:Faith: pistis, pis'-tis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. Now before you try and tell me that I singled out the definition, pulled verses out of context, wrangled over words or played the semantic's card, then may I suggest that you read it extremely carefully this time because I will show you plainly how 1 Timothy 4:1 clearly refers to the truth of the Gospel (The Gospel is Truth) and not personal belief or possessing faith. I will begin with your favored NAS version:

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away (aphistemi) from the faith (pistis), paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. (1 Timothy 4:1)

(NIV) - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
(KJV) - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
(NAS) - But The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
(ASV) - But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.
(ESV) - Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.

Nearly 99% of all Bible translations uses "THE FAITH", not "THEIR FAITH, "THE" is not a personal pronoun, thus it is definite that "the faith" refers to religious truth OR the GOSPEL, which can mean either the "Good Message" or the teachings of Christ! And as I stated in my previous post, the word for (Fall away; shall depart from) is "aphistemi" [868] which means to remove or withdraw oneself from. Now before you state that it means to lose your faith then may I suggest you take a look at how it is used in the context found in these passages:

• Luke 2:37 - And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed[868]not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
• Luke 4:13 - And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed[868] from him for a season.
• Acts 12:10 - When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed[868] from him.
• Acts 15:38 - But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed[868] from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
• Acts 19:9 - But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed[868] from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
• Acts 22:29 - Then straightway they departed[868] from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.
• 2 Corinthians 12:8 - For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart[868] from me.
• 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart[868] from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
• (SAME BOOK) 1 Timothy 6:5 - Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself[868]

Now in the same Book of (1 TIMOTHY) the words "THE FAITH" is used, and lets see in what context they are used to further establish my thesis.

a). Holding the mystery of the faith[4102] in a pure conscience. (1 Timothy 3:9)
b). Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith[4102]: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Timothy 1:2)
c). For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith[4102] which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3:13)
d). Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith[4102], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)
e). But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied (arneomai:to reject, refuse or not accept) the faith[4102], and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)
f). For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred(apoplanao:to stray from the truth), from the faith[4102], and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)
g). Which some professing have erred(astocheo:deviate from)concerning the faith[4102]. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:21)

Each and every verse implies that "THE FAITH" clearly means (THE GOSPEL) or truthfulness of God. None of those verses implicate a "personal faith" or a "possessing faith", otherwise it would have used "THEIR FAITH" as found in these passages:

• Matthew 9:2 - And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith [4102]said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
• Mark 2:5 - When Jesus saw their faith[4102], he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
• Luke 5:20 - And when he saw their faith[4102], he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Not everyone who goes to Church or hears the message of the Gospel possess faith. There are many who go to church every Sunday and hear the sermons of their pastors and withdraw from the church for another doctrine which may be more appealing to them. Paul uses the term "latter times" or when churches are prevalent. The Great Apostasy precedes the appearing of the "Man of sin; Son of Perdition", this can be a momentary separation of (false converts) and (genuine believers) because false prophets and those who teach false doctrines cannot deceive the elect, or lead them away from Christ (Matt. 24:24). God indeed has a way of distinguishing false converts from genuine believers (2 Tim. 2:19) A profession of faith in Christ does not necessarily mean that one actually possesses faith.

OK, I'm not going to quote entire chapters to prove my point, I will however quote the bolded section of the passage you quoted in your attempt to refute me:

For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." NAS (2 Peter 2:20-22)

Now before you jump on the “if” in vs. 20 and claim that genuine believers cannot again be entangled and overcome take a long hard look at how Peter uses “if” in vs. 4 through 10. God did judge the angels, those living prior to the flood, the people in the cities of the plain, and did rescue Lot.

That passage doesn't say anything about losing ones Salvation!

That passage in context is referring to false teachers who deny the Lord and promote damnable heresies (v. 1). It is obviously not referring to "Genuine Believers" or those who are saved, it is CLEARLY describing deceivers and hypocrites. If anyone has the audacity to say that the interpretation of the passage refers to the "saved" who lose their salvation then they are completely and utterly taking that passage out of context. The very mention that "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" and "it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness" clearly does not mean that they were once saved and now are lost. They are described as dogs and pigs who were unchanged (v. 22). A deceiver and hypocrite can know the way of righteousness but never apply it to their lives, which this passage clearly describes, i.e., they may know the Gospel and even teach it but in their hearts deny Christ. Furthermore when is Gods children ever referred to as dogs? The word for dog is "kuon" which is the same word used in Revelation 22:15 and refers to immoral people. Conditional security adherents state that we were once dogs, however that passage does not say that we were once dogs but states that those who return to their sinful lifestyles are like dogs. (2 Peter 2:20-22) is parallel to (Matthew 12:43-45) where it describes a man being rid of an evil spirit, the evil spirit returned and discovered that his house was empty, swept, and garnished. Because this unclean spirit could not find rest, it returned with seven other wicked spirits worst than himself, the results? The (final state) or condition has resulted in an even greater degeneration as with (2 Pet. 2:20-22), what was the reason for this? The problem was that the house was well swept but "Unoccupied", it is only when we invite Christ to be the honored guest and head of the home are we considered saved!

Philippians 2:12-18

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 that you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all. 18 And you too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.
NAS

Why did Paul instruct the Philippians to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" if their salvation was assured because of eternal security? Just when does taking personal responsibility for life's decision go out the window in your theology?

I have answered this before, "Work out your Salvation" does not imply that we are to work for Salvation in order to obtain it. The Greek phrase "work out" denotes the manifestation, expression, or actualization of something one already possesses. The Conditional Security adherents for that passage is just as bad as saying that we are saved by works!!!

Aineo, if you reject my exegesis, then you most likely do not want to hear what the scriptures explicitly states in the correct context, but rather personal opinion and interpretation that is apt to Conditional Security adherents. I'm not here to deceive anyone or appeal to what sounds suitable to the doctrine I uphold while neglecting what the scriptures clearly teach, I use to debate against OSASavers and diligently searched the scriptures for myself to determine what the Word of God clearly teaches, and no Conditional Security adherent can definitively prove that someone who have actually obtained Salvation can actually lose it!

God Bless!

[Aineo]

(Omega), the only thing you have proved with your screaming rants is that you will go to any extreme to avoid facing the truth as revealed in God's word. Paul wrote about your type of person

2 Timothy 2:14-26

14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. 16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickedness." 20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21 Therefore, if a man cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Now flee from youthful lusts, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. NAS

You would rather wrangle over how one Greek word is rendered in Scripture that even attempt to understand the context the Greek word is used in. I pity those who would rather search the Scriptures in a futile attempt to call the Holy Spirit a liar than accept the inerrancy of God's ord.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

[Now the Spirit speaketh expressly] Reetoos (NT:4490). Manifestly, openly. It is very likely that the apostle refers here to a prophecy then furnished by the Holy Spirit, and probably immediately after he had written the words in the preceding verses; and as this prophecy contains things nowhere else spoken of in the sacred writings, and of the utmost moment to the Christian church, we cannot hear or read them with too much reverence or respect.

[In the latter times] This does not necessarily imply the last ages of the world, but any times consequent to those in which the church then lived.

[Depart from the faith] Aposteesontai (NT:868) ... tees (NT:3588) pisteoos (NT:4102). They will apostatize from the faith, i.e. from Christianity; renouncing the whole system in effect, by bringing in doctrines which render its essential truths null and void, or denying and renouncing such doctrines as are essential to Christianity as a system of salvation. A man may hold all the truths of Christianity, and yet render them of none effect by holding other doctrines which counteract their influence; or he may apostatize by denying some essential doctrine, though he bring in nothing heterodox.

[Giving heed to seducing spirits] Pneumasin (NT:4151) planois (NT:4108). Many MSS. and the chief of the fathers have pneumasi (NT:4151) planees (NT:4106), spirits of deceit; which is much more emphatic than the common reading. Deception has her spirits, emissaries of every kind, which she employs to darken the hearts and destroy the souls of men. Pretenders to inspiration, and false teachers of every kind, belong to this class.

[And doctrines of devils] Daimonioon (NT:1140). Demons; either meaning fallen spirits, or dead men, spectres, etc., or doctrines inspired by Satan relative to these, by which he secures his own interest, and provides for his own worship.

(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)

I guess the best way to demonstrate genuine believers departing from the faith is to use some modern examples. I suppose you know what universalism is but in case you don’t; universalism teaches that all men who follow any god are saved.

Billy Graham Believes Catholic Doctrine of Salvation Without Bible, Gospel, or Name of Christ

Billy Graham, a Southern Baptist preacher (who also believes in OSAS) has renounced Biblical truth and the gospel of salvation only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ by advocating universalism, which will be the one world religion the AntiChrist will use to deceive mankind. So I guess Billy Graham was never saved in the first place and is not a “genuine believer”.

As to me rejecting God’s truth I leave that up to men who preach false doctrines designed to tickle the ears of the weak and by doing so encourage the weak to willfully sin in the name of salvation through doctrine and not faith in Jesus Christ.

BTW, I know "the" is not a pronoun it is a definite article (I took English and grammar classes in school and college). However "the faith" refers to faith in Jesus Christ as the Messiah not a set of rules or doctrines, especially manmade doctrines made up of whole cloth by interpreting Scripture. However, even if you want to emphasize the "the" in 1 Timothy 4:1 "the faith" is (as you posted) the good news of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. And the Spirit explicitly states that men will depart from the gospel or "the faith". So before you continue your screaming rants, pulling Scripture out of context, and wrangling over words I suggest you get a full Biblical understanding of "the faith" since men have departed, renounced, and perverted "the faith" from the 1st century until today.

As to you not needing a sermon on how we are saved; I am not sure you don't need such a sermon since you posted we are saved by “the faith” as defined in assorted doctrines that don’t necessarily need to be based on God’s truth.

[(Omega)]

Screaming rants?..... Okie dokie, if you say so Aineo, I find it a tad hypocritical how you tell me to cease from wrangling over words and at the same time continue to re-define the definitions of the words I posted. Call me a hypocrite if you will but....

[Depart from the faith] Aposteesontai (NT:868) ... tees (NT:3588) pisteoos (NT:4102). They will apostatize from the faith, i.e. from Christianity; renouncing the whole system in effect, by bringing in doctrines which render its essential truths null and void, or denying and renouncing such doctrines as are essential to Christianity as a system of salvation. A man may hold all the truths of Christianity, and yet render them of none effect by holding other doctrines which counteract their influence; or he may apostatize by denying some essential doctrine, though he bring in nothing heterodox.

Where in the above definition does it actually state that those who apostasize are actually saved? As a matter of fact it states that the person denies Christianity as the way of Salvation, do you consider this a saved person? A BIG thanks for further strengthening my argument.
Furthermore, stating that I actually said anywhere in my posts that we are saved by "the faith" is not only distorting my words but also giving the illusion that you have refuted my argument which you obviously could not. I never said that we are saved by "the faith", I plainly refuted how your feeble argument of how "the faith" refers to personal faith which BTW I utterly disproved. Your argument would be valid if those who depart from the faith were in FACT saved, which you have yet to prove but deliberately sidestepped this argument each time it is posed. Actually it is I who pity you how you have the temerity of accusing me of calling the Holy Spirit a liar when I have established with scriptures how your rebuttals are inefficient and lack supportive biblical evidence to back your premise. Universalism teaches that not all men who follow any god will be saved, but that all will be saved, Which is a false doctrine like Conditional Security. Go ahead and make your usual insinuations of how I teach false doctrines to tickle the ears of the weak and encourage them to willfully sin when I have thoroughly explained the differences of those who teach OSAS and turn the Grace of God to lasciviousness and those who teach OSAS as a doctrine that teaches that Salvation is secured to those who actually are doers of the words and not hearers only. I am not going to waste my time reading the link provided since men and women are known for slandering men and women of God. Aineo, please don't attempt to have me implicate Billy Graham as an unbeliever, you have a knack of resorting to personalities and then try and have me label them as unbelievers. Men have departed, renounced, and perverted "the faith" from the 1st century until today? AND? You can depart, renounce and pervert the Gospel which is the exact meaning of "the faith" , how does this prove that they were saved??? Your back to square one.

[Aineo]

[Depart from the faith] Aposteesontai (NT:868) ... tees (NT:3588) pisteoos (NT:4102). They will apostatize from the faith, i.e. from Christianity; renouncing the whole system in effect, by bringing in doctrines which render its essential truths null and void, or denying and renouncing such doctrines as are essential to Christianity as a system of salvation. A man may hold all the truths of Christianity, and yet render them of none effect by holding other doctrines which counteract their influence; or he may apostatize by denying some essential doctrine, though he bring in nothing heterodox.

Where in the above definition does it actually state that those who apostasize are actually saved? As a matter of fact it states that the person denies Christianity as the way of Salvation, do you consider this a saved person?

For a man who prefers to wrangle over words by redefining words to suit your purpose I should not be surprised you take "renounce" to mean "denounce". Now where in the above definition does it actually state that those who apostatize were not actually saved?

I guess we need to define words:

apostate
adj : not faithful to religion or party or cause n : a disloyal person who betrays or deserts his cause or religion or political party or friend etc. [syn: deserter, renegade, turncoat, recreant, ratter]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apostate

re·nounce P Pronunciation Key (r -nouns )
v. re·nounced, re·nounc·ing, re·nounc·es
v. tr.
1. To give up (a title, for example), especially by formal announcement. See Synonyms at relinquish.
2. To reject; disown.
Main Entry: re·nounce
Pronunciation: ri-'nauns
Function: verb
Inflected Forms: re·nounced; re·nounc·ing
transitive verb 1 : to announce one's abandonment or giving up of a right to or interest in : DISCLAIM 1 <renounce an inheritance>
2 : to refuse to follow, obey, or recognize any further <renounce allegiance to one's country> intransitive verb : to make a renunciation
renounce
v 1: give up, such as power, as of monarchs and emperors, or duties and obligations; "The King abdicated when he married a divorcee" [syn: abdicate] 2: leave (a job, post, post, or position) voluntarily; "She vacated the position when she got pregnant"; "The chairman resigned when he was found to have misappropriated funds" [syn: vacate, resign, give up] 3: turn away from; give up; "I am foreswearing women forever" [syn: foreswear, quit, relinquish] 4: cast off or disown; "She renounced her husband"; "The parents repudiated their son" [syn: repudiate]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=renounce

2 entries found for denounce.
de·nounce P Pronunciation Key (d -nouns )tr.v. de·nounced, de·nounc·ing, de·nounc·es 1. To condemn openly as being evil or reprehensible. See Synonyms at criticize. 2. To accuse formally. 3. To give formal announcement of the ending of (a treaty).
denounce
v 1: speak out against; "He denounced the Nazis" 2: to accuse or condemn or openly or formally or brand as disgraceful; "He denounced the government action"; "She was stigmatized by society because she had a child out of wedlock" [syn: stigmatize, stigmatise, brand, mark] 3: announce the termination of, as of treaties 4: give away information about somebody; "He told on his classmate who had cheated on the exam" [syn: tell on, betray, give away, rat, grass, shit, shop, snitch, stag]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=denounce

Furthermore, stating that I actually said anywhere in my posts that we are saved by "the faith" is not only distorting my words but also giving the illusion that you have refuted my argument which you obviously could not.

You protest against yourself.

You opening statement is interesting since the way question you have not answered is how one can fall away from something they never possessed. Therefore in order to cut through all the rhetoric you have posted in an attempt to avoid this one simple question do you think you can respond to it in your next post?

Rhetoric? Hmmm....More like your misunderstanding of the words being construed, do you read my posts or just skim through them?
Luke 8:13 uses "fall away" (aphistemi) and 1 Timothy 4:1 uses "shall depart from" also (aphistemi)
Fall away; shall depart from:ajfivsthmi aphistemi, af-is'-tay-mee; from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

Where does it actually state that those who "fall away or depart" from the faith actually possessed it? To fall away or depart from the faith is to remove oneself or withdraw from the Christian Doctrine, do you deny that a person can withdraw from the Christian Doctrine without possessing faith? I made several examples of how this is done in my previous post and you chose to ignore it and resort to your personal opinion of how a certain passage should be translated and at the same time accuse me of taking it out of context, when in fact you refused to understand it in "Plain English" (THE) is not a personal pronoun and your excuse "context" involves taking all the words of a teaching into consideration is absurd since this is exactly what you have overlooked regarding the nature of re-birth. THE FAITH clearly refers to the Christian Doctrine and not personal faith or conviction of God, in your attempts to deny this simple logic you reach for another loophole.

According to you THE FAITH is Christian Doctrine, which anyone can adhere to without putting a personal faith in Jesus Christ.

In a prior post you stated that Muslim’s and etc. depart from the faith. Now since Muslim’s and etc. never accepted the faith they cannot depart from it.

de·part P Pronunciation Key (d -pärt )
v. de·part·ed, de·part·ing, de·parts
v. intr.
1. To go away; leave.
2. To die.
3. To vary, as from a regular course; deviate: depart from custom. See Synonyms at swerve.

v. tr.
To go away from; leave.
depart
v 1: move away from a place into another direction; "Go away before I start to cry"; "The train departs at noon" [syn: go, go away] [ant: come] 2: be at variance with; be out of line with [syn: deviate, vary, diverge] [ant: conform] 3: leave; "The family took off for Florida" [syn: part, start, start out, set forth, set off, set out, take off] 4: go away or leave [syn: take leave, quit] [ant: stay] 5: remove oneself from an association with or participation in; "She wants to leave"; "The teenager left home"; "She left her position with the Red Cross"; "He left the Senate after two terms"; "after 20 years with the same company, she pulled up stakes" [syn: leave, pull up stakes] 6: wander from a direct or straight course [syn: sidetrack, digress, straggle]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=depart

You are the one who needs to start at square one since in order to establish you thesis you have had to redefine words.
You cannot renounce something you never announced or depart from a location or position you never held. According to you I departed from London even though I have never been in England. According to you I departed from Islam even though I never accepted Islam as a valid position. What I have done is departed from gay theology and manmade doctrines like OSAS.

You have filled 6 pages with sophomoric hubris that boggles the mind of anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the English language.

[(Omega)]

Your using modern day definitions to redefine the literal interpretation of the words being discussed, wanna wrangle over words?

For a man who prefers to wrangle over words by redefining words to suit your purpose I should not be surprised you take "renounce" to mean "denounce". Now where in the above definition does it actually state that those who apostatize were not actually saved?

I guess we need to define words:

You missed my point completely, I know exactly what renounce means:

Renounce:Pronunciation: ri'nawns
WordNet Dictionary
Definition: [v] cast off or disown; "She renounced her husband"; "The parents repudiated their son"
[v] turn away from; give up; "I am foreswearing women forever"
[v] leave voluntarily; of a job, post or position; "She vacated the position when she got pregnant"; "The chairman resigned when he was found to have misappropriated funds"
[v] give up, such as power, as of monarchs and emperors, or duties and obligations; "The King abdicated when he married a divorcee"

or denying and renouncing such doctrines as are essential to Christianity as a system of salvation.

WHERE? Show me where it actually states that a person renounces their faith? And we are not talking about personal faith because it clearly says they renounce the (DOCTRINES ESSENTIAL TO CHRISTIANITY)

You have redefined words according to modern day english to suit your personal opinion, what a sad excuse to wig your out of the precise context of the words in 1 Timothy 4. I never took renounce to mean denounce, I stand by the definition of renounce. Anybody knows that you don't have to possess faith to renounce it, you can easily renounce the truth of Christianity without ever possessing personal faith in it.

According to you THE FAITH is Christian Doctrine, which anyone can adhere to without putting a personal faith in Jesus Christ.

In a prior post you stated that Muslim's and etc. depart from the faith. Now since Muslim's and etc. never accepted the faith they cannot depart from it.

SHALL DEPART FROM:[868] aphistemi, af-is'-tay-mee; from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

Once again Aineo, you don't have to possess faith to depart from "THE FAITH", the faith refers to the Gospel as I have already pointed out. An atheist can hear the Gospel and withraw or remove themselves from it without ever possessing faith.

FALLING AWAY:[646] apostasia, [I]ap-os-tas-ee'-ah[I]; feminine of the same as 647; a falling away, defection, apostasy.

God Bless!

[(Omega)]

BTW, for the umpteenth time, prove to me that those who apostasize or depart from "the faith" were in fact once saved! it is impossible to determine this unless you are GOD or Jesus! I have been through this with you before, what you are implying is that anyone who makes a formal declaration of acknowledgement of the Gospel is in fact saved, and because they have renounced it or "cast off or disown" it as truth, they lose their salvation they once obtained. In a nutshell, apostasty is defined as a renunciation of a religious faith OR defection from the truth. If someone tells you that they believe that Christianity is the true religion, do you automatically assume that their saved, can someone be that naive? What if their lying, how would you know? Anyone can profess the Gospel to be true and moments later have lingering doubts because he/she did not believe within their hearts because they didn't have root. Do you see the point I've been stressing in nearly each and every one of my posts? You can "dance around scriptures" and "wrangle with words" or split hairs if you wish, but as of now your rebuttals are nothing more than conjecture and speculative reasoning.

[Aineo]

Your using modern day definitions to redefine the literal interpretation of the words being discussed, wanna wrangle over words?

For a man who prefers to wrangle over words by redefining words to suit your purpose I should not be surprised you take "renounce" to mean "denounce". Now where in the above definition does it actually state that those who apostatize were not actually saved?

I guess we need to define words:

You missed my point completely, I know exactly what renounce means:

Renounce:Pronunciation: ri'nawns
WordNet Dictionary
Definition: [v] cast off or disown; "She renounced her husband"; "The parents repudiated their son"
[v] turn away from; give up; "I am foreswearing women forever"
[v] leave voluntarily; of a job, post or position; "She vacated the position when she got pregnant"; "The chairman resigned when he was found to have misappropriated funds"
[v] give up, such as power, as of monarchs and emperors, or duties and obligations; "The King abdicated when he married a divorcee"

or denying and renouncing such doctrines as are essential to Christianity as a system of salvation.

WHERE? Show me where it actually states that a person renounces their faith? And we are not talking about personal faith because it clearly says they renounce the (DOCTRINES ESSENTIAL TO CHRISTIANITY)

You are still arguing against yourself. You maintain THE FAITH is doctrines essential to Christianity and in the previous sentnece ask me to show where "it" actually states that a person renounce their faith. Now I guess you need to decide who determines "doctrines essential to Christianity" since what you consider "essential doctrines" and what Catholicism considers "essential doctrines" are not the same. Go back and read what you have posted. You claim that a "genuine believer" is lead by the Spirit and since the Spirit deals with individuals in their faithful walk with the Lord and not "essential doctrines", most of which change with the denomination your whole thesis is full of holes.

What is ludicrous about OSAS debates is your last ditch stance is "show me they were ever saved in the first place" wich is simply a convenient way to avoid the issue. You claim I am appealing to modern dictionaries to define words, yet you are appealing to modern theologians in your attempt to show "the faith" to mean doctrines essential to Christianity, a concept not found in the NT to personal faith, which in fact has the same meaning to those who don't wrangle over words. Also if you place your "religious" definition of apostate and a secular definition of apostate side by side they are identical.

Your arguement that "the faith" is not the same as "faith" is reminiscent of Jehovah's Witnesses contention that God (theos) is not the same as the God (ho theos) in John 1:1. The KJ uses the word "faith" 245 times and in only 45 places is faith preceded by "the". When Jesus healed He did not tell those He healed it was done because of "the faith" but because of "their faith.

Now if you read my opening post I asked one question you for the umpteenth time have avoided and that is how can someone fall away from something they never had.

In spite of all the hubris you have thrown around for the last 6 pages you have not demonstrated that OSAS is a valid doctrine, which is demonstrated by your use of "genuine believer" and "they were never saved in the first place".

[(Omega)]

2 Timothy 2:14-26

14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. 16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickedness." 20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21 Therefore, if a man cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Now flee from youthful lusts, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. NAS

Do you like my entrance rebuttal?

You are still arguing against yourself. You maintain THE FAITH is doctrines essential to Christianity and in the previous sentnece ask me to show where "it" actually states that a person renounce their faith. Now I guess you need to decide who determines "doctrines essential to Christianity" since what you consider "essential doctrines" and what Catholicism considers "essential doctrines" are not the same. Go back and read what you have posted. You claim that a "genuine believer" is lead by the Spirit and since the Spirit deals with individuals in their faithful walk with the Lord and not "essential doctrines", most of which change with the denomination your whole thesis is full of holes.

What is ludicrous about OSAS debates is your last ditch stance is "show me they were ever saved in the first place" wich is simply a convenient way to avoid the issue. You claim I am appealing to modern dictionaries to define words, yet you are appealing to modern theologians in your attempt to show "the faith" to mean doctrines essential to Christianity, a concept not found in the NT to personal faith, which in fact has the same meaning to those who don't wrangle over words. Also if you place your "religious" definition of apostate and a secular definition of apostate side by side they are identical.

Aineo, what do I consider "essential doctrines"? When and where did I ever determine what is considered and essential doctrine. As a matter of fact I will quote your appeal to a modern theologian:

[Depart from the faith] Aposteesontai (NT:868) ... tees (NT:3588) pisteoos (NT:4102). They will apostatize from the faith, i.e. from Christianity; renouncing the whole system in effect, by bringing in doctrines which render its essential truths null and void, or denying and renouncing such doctrines as are essential to Christianity as a system of salvation. A man may hold all the truths of Christianity, and yet render them of none effect by holding other doctrines which counteract their influence; or he may apostatize by denying some essential doctrine, though he bring in nothing heterodox.

The Spirit deals with individuals in their faithful walk with the Lord and not "essential doctrines"? Then please explain how a person can possibly be led by the spirit without Doctrine? (Rom. 6:17; John 7:16), you cannot be led by the spirit unless you receive the spirit, and how do we receive the Spirit? The Doctrine of Christ (John 17:6) would be a start! Ask your commentator above what "the faith" (essential doctrines) indicate. According to the commentator, the person who renounces doctrines essential to Christianity as a system of salvation is an apostate, now where does it actually state they that the apostate was in fact saved? Your an artful dodger aren't you? This is not a last ditch stance to avoid the issue, since your entire thesis deals with the question "How can someone fall away from something they never had?"

Your arguement that "the faith" is not the same as "faith" is reminiscent of Jehovah's Witnesses contention that God (theos) is not the same as the God (ho theos) in John 1:1. The KJ uses the word "faith" 245 times and in only 45 places is faith preceded by "the". When Jesus healed He did not tell those He healed it was done because of "the faith" but because of "their faith.

Now if you read my opening post I asked one question you for the umpteenth time have avoided and that is how can someone fall away from something they never had.

In spite of all the hubris you have thrown around for the last 6 pages you have not demonstrated that OSAS is a valid doctrine, which is demonstrated by your use of "genuine believer" and "they were never saved in the first place".

Hubris? Now before you get personal and hostile, I suggest you examine your very own words to avoid hypocrisy. My argument that "the faith" is not the same as "faith" is reminiscent of Jehovah's Witnesses contention that God (theos) is not the same as the God (ho theos) in John 1:1? CONTEXT! Obviously God (theos) and God (theos) are indeed the same in John 1:1. Not only is that absurd since you singled out one verse, but you minus will take into consideration that the word "all" means "ALL" each time it is mentioned. There are passages where all is literally rendered "all" and there are instances where all is considered (some of all types) or (individually). The word "God" (theos) in the Greek New Testament can refer either to pagan or false gods or the One True God Yahweh depending on the context it is used. Matt. 22:32 uses "The God" (theos) of Abraham while 2 Cor. 4:4 uses "the god" (theos) of this world, anyone can see in plain context that God (theos) found in Matt. 22:32 is not the same as 2 Cor. 4: common sense. You then proceed to say "When Jesus healed He did not tell those He healed it was done because of "the faith" but because of "their faith." Confused? That is, exactly my point, it is "their faith" (personal:Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20 ) and not "the faith" which made them whole, so how is "the faith" and "their faith" the same? Now despite the fact that you used a poor analogy, how is "the faith" interpreted in CONTEXT of those passages?

• Holding the mystery of the faith[4102] in a pure conscience. (1 Timothy 3:9)
• Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith[4102]: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Timothy 1:2)
• For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith[4102] which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3:13)
• Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith[4102], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)
• But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied (arneomai:to reject, refuse or not accept) the faith[4102], and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:
• For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred(apoplanao:to stray from the truth), from the faith[4102], and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)
• Which some professing have erred(astocheo:deviate from)concerning the faith[4102]. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:21)

In the book of 1 Timothy alone where the Conditional Adherents well esteemed "shall depart from the faith" is mentioned, each time the phrase "THE FAITH" is used on context, it is rendered as (THE GOSPEL) or truthfulness of God.

How can someone fall away from something they never had? 1 Timothy 4:1 does not refer to personal faith, it refers to those who walk away from the truth of Christianity or the Gospel. "Fall away" [868]. (aphistemi) is found 16 times in the New Testament and only once(Lk. 8:13) in context does it represent departure of faith having once believed. The remaining 14 represents abandonment or withdrawal. Logic and common sense tells us that you do not have to possess faith to abandon or withraw yourself from it. Luke 8:13 (fell on stony places)refers to shallow-hearted individuals who anon (at once) receive (outwardly) the message with joy, who had no root. So anyone who at once receiving the word of joy is considered saved? Hebrews 3:12 is given by Paul to His "brethren" (professing believers) to examine themselves whether they are true believers, or whether they have an "EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF" which clearly indicates an unregenerate heart.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

You sure like to side step questions. My question to you was to define essential doctrine. Cornelius was not brought to Christ via essential doctrines and neither were the apostles. Cornelius and the apostles were brought to Christ via faith and faith alone since only by faith is one saved.

Also you are once again contradicting yourself since you posted that the Holy Spirit deals with individuals and their faith.

Romans 10:7-10
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. NAS

As to the commentary I quoted you are refusing to get past "essential doctrines of Christianity".

[Depart from the faith] Aposteesontai (NT:868) ... tees (NT:3588) pisteoos (NT:4102). They will apostatize from the faith, i.e. from Christianity; renouncing the whole system in effect, by bringing in doctrines which render its essential truths null and void, or denying and renouncing such doctrines as are essential to Christianity as a system of salvation. A man may hold all the truths of Christianity, and yet render them of none effect by holding other doctrines which counteract their influence; or he may apostatize by denying some essential doctrine, though he bring in nothing heterodox.

Catholicism is a system of esstential doctrines as are the LDS, JW's and etc. What distinguishes these three and other false religions is they either add to God's truth or deny portions of God's truth resulting in the nullification of "salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ". Now since religions are made up of people who accept heretical doctrines what this commentator is addressing is apostasy, which is what this thread is about and totally disproves OSAS.

How can a believer be lead by the Spirit without doctrine? There is a simple and Biblical response to your question:

John 14:25-31
25 "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 27 "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28 "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I. 29 "And now I have told you before it comes to pass, that when it comes to pass, you may believe. 30 "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me; 31 but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go from here. NAS

Jesus said that some would fall way and only "he who endures to the end shall be saved", which the Holy Spirit explicity revealed to Paul in 1 Timothy, a fact you refuse to accept.

Faith is the only essential Christian doctrine all other doctrines not based on walking by faith are manmade doctrines and/or doctrines of demons.

[Aineo]

You sure like to side step questions. My question to you was to define essential doctrine. Cornelius was not brought to Christ via essential doctrines and neither were the apostles. Cornelius and the apostles were brought to Christ via faith and faith alone since only by faith is one saved.

Also you are once again contradicting yourself since you posted that the Holy Spirit deals with individuals and their faith.

Romans 10:7-10
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. NAS

As to the commentary I quoted you are refusing to get past "essential doctrines of Christianity".

[Depart from the faith] Aposteesontai (NT:868) ... tees (NT:3588) pisteoos (NT:4102). They will apostatize from the faith, i.e. from Christianity; renouncing the whole system in effect, by bringing in doctrines which render its essential truths null and void, or denying and renouncing such doctrines as are essential to Christianity as a system of salvation. A man may hold all the truths of Christianity, and yet render them of none effect by holding other doctrines which counteract their influence; or he may apostatize by denying some essential doctrine, though he bring in nothing heterodox.

Catholicism is a system of esstential doctrines as are the LDS, JW's and etc. What distinguishes these three and other false religions is they either add to God's truth or deny portions of God's truth resulting in the nullification of "salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ". Now since religions are made up of people who accept heretical doctrines what this commentator is addressing is apostasy, which is what this thread is about and totally disproves OSAS.

How can a believer be lead by the Spirit without doctrine? There is a simple and Biblical response to your question:

John 14:25-31
25 "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 27 "Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28 "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I. 29 "And now I have told you before it comes to pass, that when it comes to pass, you may believe. 30 "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me; 31 but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go from here. NAS

Jesus said that some would fall way and only "he who endures to the end shall be saved", which the Holy Spirit explicity revealed to Paul in 1 Timothy, a fact you refuse to accept.

Faith is the only essential Christian doctrine all other doctrines not based on walking by faith are manmade doctrines and/or doctrines of demons.

[(Omega)]

Aineo, either you are purposely ignoring my questions or you are intentionally using the same statement of "You sure like to side step questions" as an excuse to avoid my questions, this is the same tactics of banned members who taught false doctrines on this board and elsewhere use. I'm not going to waste my time re-typing my rebuttal which has yet to be refuted. The large fonts isn't me yelling or screaming at you, it is me putting EMPHASIS on the words which need to be thoughtfully and meticulously considered in context. First I'm going to remove all the nonsensical rebuttals you have posed time and again so that you may actually give an answer to my legitimate questions.

My question to you was to define essential doctrine. Cornelius was not brought to Christ via essential doctrines and neither were the apostles. Cornelius and the apostles were brought to Christ via faith and faith alone since only by faith is one saved.

Also you are once again contradicting yourself since you posted that the Holy Spirit deals with individuals and their faith.

Romans 10:7-10
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. NAS

My question nor your question has anything to do with my rebuttal, it is not about how we are saved but that departure from the faith is in no way an indication of persons possessing Salvation or an indication of belief which stems from the heart anymore than self-professing christians and false converts departing from the Christianity.

Catholicism is a system of esstential doctrines as are the LDS, JW's and etc. What distinguishes these three and other false religions is they either add to God's truth or deny portions of God's truth resulting in the nullification of "salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ". Now since religions are made up of people who accept heretical doctrines what this commentator is addressing is apostasy, which is what this thread is about and totally disproves OSAS.

How can a believer be lead by the Spirit without doctrine? There is a simple and Biblical response to your question:

Aineo, I could care less how the commentary interpreted that passage, why? You are a commentator, I am a commentator, anyone on this forum is a commentator. I said this before if you hadn't skimmed past my posts, there has been major discrepancies between interpretations and commentators of theologians, pastors and others due to personal opinions, interpretations and doctrinal bias. This is the very reason as to why the scriptures tell us to:

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

Jesus said that some would fall way and only "he who endures to the end shall be saved", which the Holy Spirit explicity revealed to Paul in 1 Timothy, a fact you refuse to accept.

Faith is the only essential Christian doctrine all other doctrines not based on walking by faith are manmade doctrines and/or doctrines of demons.

A FACT not I refuse to accept but you as I will again in crystal clear clarity explain. Faith is essential to Salvation, however 1 Timothy 4:1 in no way, shape or form proves that those who depart either possessed Salvation or faith which is a gross and prejudice interpretation of that passage.

So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.

And for the third or fourth time, your commentary is in absolute contradiction to Jesus's word, in other words, you are refuting your own arguments. I'm not saved, your are not saved, those whom you claimed to have lost their salvation were never saved. and neither is anyone alive today saved until the end.

It is not definite article which determines the correct meaning, but the CONTEXT of the passage. Just as "the god" of this world and "the God"of Abraham obviously have completely different meaning in context. There are instances when pistis is preceded by "the" in the Greek and is an indication of absolute trust in God. Then there are examples where "the faith (pistis)" refers to the Gospel or "the truth".

DEPART:
[868]aphistemi, af-is'-tay-mee; from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

• Luke 2:37 - And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed[868]not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
• Luke 4:13 - And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed[868] from him for a season.
• Acts 12:10 - When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed[868] from him.
• Acts 15:38 - But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed[868] from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
• Acts 19:9 - But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed[868] from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.
• Acts 22:29 - Then straightway they departed[868] from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.
• 2 Corinthians 12:8 - For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart[868] from me.
• 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart[868] from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
• (SAME BOOK) 1 Timothy 6:5 - Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself[868]

Above are crystal clear examples of how the word "DEPART" implies withdrawal or to remove oneself from.

THE FAITH:
[4102]pistis, pis'-tis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

• Holding the mystery of the faith[4102] in a pure conscience. (1 Timothy 3:9)
• Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith[4102]: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Timothy 1:2)
• For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith[4102] which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3:13)
• Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith[4102], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)
• But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied (arneomai:to reject, refuse or not accept) the faith[4102], and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)
• For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred(apoplanao:to stray from the truth), from the faith[4102], and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)
• Which some professing have erred(astocheo:deviate from)concerning the faith[4102]. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:21)

Timothy is referred to as Paul's "own son in (the faith);" not Paul's "own son in (faith), Paul is obviously not calling Timothy his son by faith. "Holding the mystery of the faith;" not "Holding the mystery of faith". It is not faith which is a mystery but "the faith" or the Gospel of truth of Jesus or God as in (Rom. 16:25; Mk. 4:11; Matt. 13:11; Eph. 3:3,4) both referring to the truth of God and not trust or personal faith in God and both are found in 1 Timothy. The usage of the word (pistis) is determined by the context of the passage, and not if there is an exclusion or inclusion of the definite article ("the"). Any bible student, scholar, pastor or even anyone possessing a basic understanding of grammatical context can see for themselves that at face value, "the faith" in context clearly refers to the Gospel or the truth of God, and only a person with too much pride will not admit to this. I have demonstrated with precise context how Conditional Security adherents have taken 1 Timothy 4:1 out of context and conformed it to their personal opinions and interpretation to suit their false doctrine.

POSSESSING FAITH:

• Matthew 9:2 - And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith [4102]said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
• Mark 2:5 - When Jesus saw their faith[4102], he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
• Luke 5:20 - And when he saw their faith[4102], he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart([868]aphistemi) from the faith([4102]pistis), giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)

I am asking a legitimate question and not an excuse to avoid your questions which I have already answered, I challenge you to show me where in the above verse does it prove that someone who having once believed (possessing faith) lost their Faith or their Salvation. I could care less on the commentary of modern theologians since there are too many discrepancies and shifts in interpretations depending on their personal belief. I have shown in crystal clear clarity and in correct context that Conditional Security advocates interpretation of that passage is completely bias. A church can have a congregation of 100 people and after three weeks 20 people can depart (withdraw, remove) from the faith (Gospel) and then leave the Church, does this prove that those who left the Church were in fact saved or possessed faith? Absolutely not!

God Bless!

[Aineo]

DEPART:
[868]aphistemi, af-is'-tay-mee; from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

I see you simply refuse to get past wrangling over words. When I depart my home to go to the store I do not apostate from my home. I am simply running an errand and will return. However, if I depart from a religion, faith, or belief I renounce that religion, faith, or belief. All of your examples of how the above Greek word is translated signify a change of location, a request that God remove an ailment or instuctions to depart from sin. None of these examples address the issue of departing from the faith, which you say is a set of essential doctrines, which by the way you refuse to list.

Study to show yourselves approved does not mean pull Scripture out of context or ignore anything that might disprove a favorite doctrine. Now lets look at the context of those passages you refuse to accept a showing a genuine believer can loose their faith, which results in the loose of salvation.

Ephesians 1:13-14

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. KJV

This is all one sentence or thought that is only part of what Paul is teaching. You have chosen to pull a portion of a phrase out of this sentence as the full explanation of what Paul wrote and that (Omega) is pulling Scripture out of context.

Now who is saved?

Romans 10:6-10
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks thus, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or' Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). " 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. NAS

Does Paul believe OSAS? Not at all since in Chapter 11 we read:

Romans 11:22-24
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? NAS

Now if Paul believed and taught OSAS the "if you" in Romans 11:22 should read "because you". Large portions of what Paul writes in his epistles are warnings of the consequences of disobedience a fact you have chosen to ignore.

BTW, what you choose to emphasize in Scripture does not mean you are emphasizing what is germane to this thread and is nothing more than screaming rants that are inappropriate for any rational discussion of God’s truth.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. KJV

So far all you have done is post what God promises to do in the life of a “genuine believer” and have totally ignored the human element and God is clear that “all have sinned and fall short of His glory” and that includes you, me, and all “genuine believers” as well as those who do not believe.

What is apostasy? Since you criticized me for appealing to a secular dictionary and have chosen to ignore the fact that my opening post contained the definition of “apostasy” from a Bible encyclopedia here is the definition of apostasy from two Bible dictionaries.

APOSTASY. A "falling away." The common classical use of the word has to do with a political defection (Genesis 14:4, LXX; 2 Chronicles 13:6, LXX; Acts 5:37). In the NT its more usual meaning is that of a religious defection (21:21; 4:1; 3:12). This is called "apostasy from the faith" (apostasia a fide): a secession from the church, and a disowning of the name of Christ. Some of its peculiar characteristics are mentioned, such as seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, hypocritical lying, a seared conscience, forbidding of marriage and of meats, a form of godliness without the power (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:5). The grave nature of apostasy is shown by such passages as Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:15-21, and John 15:22. Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. On the other hand, apostasy departs from the faith but not from the outward profession of it (2 Timothy 3:5). Apostasy, whether among the angels (Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:15; Jude 6), in Israel (Isaiah 1:1-6; 5:5-7), or in the church (Revelation 3:14-16) is irremediable and awaits judgment. Mankind's apostasy in Adam (Genesis 3:6-7) is curable only through the sacrifice of Christ. Apostates apparently can only be professors and not actual possessors of true salvation, otherwise their defection would incur severe chastening or, if this failed to restore them, untimely (physical) death (1 Corinthians 5:5; 11:32; 1 John 5:16).
M.F.U.
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

APOSTASY
A falling away from the faith. The nation of Israel fell into repeated backslidings (Jeremiah 5:6, RSV). The prophet Jeremiah predicted the judgment of God upon such disloyalty: "Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will reprove you" (Jeremiah 2:19, RSV).

Some of the noted apostates in the Bible are: King Saul, who turned back from following the Lord (1 Samuel 15:11); Hymenaeus and Alexander, who "suffered shipwreck" of their faith (1 Timothy 1:19-20); and Demas, who forsook the apostle Paul because he loved this present world (2 Timothy 4:10).

In Acts 21:21 the apostle Paul was described falsely as one who taught the Jews living among the Gentiles to commit apostasy (forsake, NKJV). Second Thessalonians 2:3> declares that the Day of Christ "will not come unless the apostasy comes first" (NASB). This great apostasy will be the time of "the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, NEB).

Apostasy is generally defined as the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Hebrews 10:26-29; John 15:22). This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance. Some Christian groups teach that apostasy is impossible for those persons who have truly accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Moody Press supports OSAS and published the New Unger’s Bible Dictionary, which explains why Unger adds a personal commentary to what the word “apostasy” actually means.

As to my not answering your questions, when are you going to post an answer to my questions? So far you have side stepped every question put to you on this thread in a futile attempt to obfuscate the Lord’s teaching as well as what Paul, Peter, John, and the author of Hebrews plainly teach and that is that some “genuine believers” will fall away and/or become apostate.

In a congregation of 100 people you will have some who are nothing more than sightseerers, some who are weak and can be influenced by false doctrines, some who live an obedient life for decades and some will(like Billy Graham and Mel White) depart from God’s truth and some who will stand on God’s truth even to the loss of their lives. It is this last category who will "endure to the end" all others will be subject to the wrath of God and an eternity in the lake of fire.

[(Omega)]

I see you simply refuse to get past wrangling over words. When I depart my home to go to the store I do not apostate from my home. I am simply running an errand and will return. However, if I depart from a religion, faith, or belief I renounce that religion, faith, or belief. All of your examples of how the above Greek word is translated signify a change of location, a request that God remove an ailment or instuctions to depart from sin. None of these examples address the issue of departing from the faith, which you say is a set of essential doctrines, which by the way you refuse to list.

Study to show yourselves approved does not mean pull Scripture out of context or ignore anything that might disprove a favorite doctrine. Now lets look at the context of those passages you refuse to accept a showing a genuine believer can loose their faith, which results in the loose of salvation.

EXACTLY! Something you continually do. Aineo, you are not going to divert my argument using interpretations which mistranslate words and inappropriately insert them with contextual errors. Why don't you take a close look at the definition of apostasy and you will see for yourself that it coincides with a departure from the (Truth of God). Furthermore your definition of departing from the faith is the renouncement of that religion in no way proves that the person who renounces or gives up the faith once obtained salvation. They give up or renounce the revealed truth of God, not their complete trust or faith in Gods truth revealed. Then you continually ask me to define essential doctrines when the commentator you quoted defines "the faith" as Gods truth revealed. However I do want to comment on how you decided to deliberately pick and choose which definitions are apt to your personal opinions. 1 Timothy 4:1 does not in any way prove that those who depart from the faith ever possessed faith or lost their salvation, anyone who teaches this is bias with their commentary and interpretation as you are with yours. You can quote your Greek definitions of depart and the faith and I will continue to quote mines not using a commentary of any source as with you to conform to what is suitable to your ears. I can quote dozens of commentary by modern theologians and bible scholars which disagree with yours, however I won't.

Moody Press supports OSAS and published the New Unger’s Bible Dictionary, which explains why Unger adds a personal commentary to what the word “apostasy” actually means.

Ok, lets see!

APOSTASY. A "falling away." The common classical use of the word has to do with a political defection (Genesis 14:4, LXX; 2 Chronicles 13:6, LXX; Acts 5:37). In the NT its more usual meaning is that of a religious defection (21:21; 4:1; 3:12). This is called "apostasy from the faith" (apostasia a fide): a secession from the church, and a disowning of the name of Christ. Some of its peculiar characteristics are mentioned, such as seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, hypocritical lying, a seared conscience, forbidding of marriage and of meats, a form of godliness without the power (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:5). The grave nature of apostasy is shown by such passages as Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:15-21, and John 15:22. Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. On the other hand, apostasy departs from the faith but not from the outward profession of it (2 Timothy 3:5). Apostasy, whether among the angels (Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:15; Jude 6), in Israel (Isaiah 1:1-6; 5:5-7), or in the church (Revelation 3:14-16) is irremediable and awaits judgment. Mankind's apostasy in Adam (Genesis 3:6-7) is curable only through the sacrifice of Christ. Apostates apparently can only be professors and not actual possessors of true salvation, otherwise their defection would incur severe chastening or, if this failed to restore them, untimely (physical) death (1 Corinthians 5:5; 11:32; 1 John 5:16).
M.F.U.
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

APOSTASY
A falling away from the faith. The nation of Israel fell into repeated backslidings (Jeremiah 5:6, RSV). The prophet Jeremiah predicted the judgment of God upon such disloyalty: "Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will reprove you" (Jeremiah 2:19, RSV).

Some of the noted apostates in the Bible are: King Saul, who turned back from following the Lord (1 Samuel 15:11); Hymenaeus and Alexander, who "suffered shipwreck" of their faith (1 Timothy 1:19-20); and Demas, who forsook the apostle Paul because he loved this present world (2 Timothy 4:10).

In Acts 21:21 the apostle Paul was described falsely as one who taught the Jews living among the Gentiles to commit apostasy (forsake, NKJV). Second Thessalonians 2:3> declares that the Day of Christ "will not come unless the apostasy comes first" (NASB). This great apostasy will be the time of "the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, NEB).

Apostasy is generally defined as the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Hebrews 10:26-29; John 15:22). This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance. Some Christian groups teach that apostasy is impossible for those persons who have truly accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Aineo, have the humility to admit your wrong for once. You want to discuss obfuscating Gods word? I will give a prime example of how your personal opinions and rebuttals are absolute distortions and perversions of the logos. Not only did the commentator state that (Apostasy) is an act of a professed Christian, and that the New Testament usually defines it as "apostasy from the faith" (apostasia a fide). He then further comments by saying that the person departs from (the faith) but not from the outward profession of it. According to the commentator "the faith" is defined as revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ and the redemption through His atoning sacrifice. Even further proof that your ears are tickled is that the commentator shockingly states that "Apostates apparently can only be professors and not actual possessors of true salvation, otherwise their defection would incur severe chastening or, if this failed to restore them, untimely (physical) death" The 2nd but shorter definition and commentary below the first defines apostasy as a falling away from (the faith), not their faith and then quotes from Jeremiah 2:19 "Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will (reprove) you" The word "reprove" is rendered [3198]yakach, yaw-kahh'; a primitive root; to be right (i.e. correct); reciprocal, to argue; causatively, to decide, justify or convict:--appoint, argue, chasten, convince, correct(-ion), daysman, dispute, judge, maintain, plead, reason (together), rebuke, reprove(-r), surely, in any wise. He then goes on to say that "Some Christian groups teach that apostasy is impossible for those persons who have truly accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord." without adducing it as a false doctrine. Although I do not put my reliance upon commentators or theologians, I have exposed your inclination to nitpick the words defined in scriptural context and accuse me of obfuscating God word and avoiding your questions as an excuse to hide behind the false doctrine of Conditional Security. The subtle variances between both commentators is the reason as to why I make it an effort to study diligently the scriptures for myself.

In all fairness, take a look at the various meanings of the word "shall depart from" and "the faith" and how it is interpreted in context, and how it is synonymous with the word apostate.

SHALL DEPART FROM:(aphistemi)
a)to remove
b)refrain,
c)withdraw self
d)draw (fall) away
e)desert

You have neglected the other meanings and singled out the definition which is best suitable to your opinion and not how the passage reads in context.

THE FAITH:(pistis)
a)of religious truth
b)the truthfulness of God
c)the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself
d)assurance
e)reliance upon Christ for salvation

I will continue to re-post and reiterate in CONTEXT how your interpretations have failed when it comes to adequately understanding and defining words in their appropriate context.

• Holding the mystery of the faith[4102] in a pure conscience. (1 Timothy 3:9)
• Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith[4102]: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Timothy 1:2)
• For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith[4102] which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3:13)
• Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith[4102], giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1 Timothy 4:1)
• But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied (arneomai:to reject, refuse or not accept) the faith[4102], and is worse than an infidel. (1 Timothy 5:8)
• For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred(apoplanao:to stray from the truth), from the faith[4102], and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)
• Which some professing have erred(astocheo:deviate from)concerning the faith[4102]. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:21)

Timothy is referred to as Paul's "own son in (the faith);" not Paul's "own son in (faith), apparently Paul is not calling Timothy his son by faith. "Holding the mystery of the faith;" not "Holding the mystery of faith". It is not faith which is a mystery but "the faith" or the Gospel of truth of Jesus or God as in (Rom. 16:25; Mk. 4:11; Matt. 13:11; Eph. 3:3,4) both referring to the truth of God and not trust or personal faith in God and both are found in 1 Timothy.

Now who is saved?

Romans 10:6-10
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks thus, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or' Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). " 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. NAS

And? Where in 1 Timothy 4:1 does it actually state that any person actually possessed salvation OR believed in their hearts? This is a legitimate question which you intentionally sidestepped each time it is presented.

Does Paul believe OSAS? Not at all since in Chapter 11 we read:

Romans 11:22-24
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? NAS

Now if Paul believed and taught OSAS the "if you" in Romans 11:22 should read "because you". Large portions of what Paul writes in his epistles are warnings of the consequences of disobedience a fact you have chosen to ignore.

BTW, what you choose to emphasize in Scripture does not mean you are emphasizing what is germane to this thread and is nothing more than screaming rants that are inappropriate for any rational discussion of God’s truth.

LOL! Right back at ya! Secondly nobody is screaming rants here Aineo, your assumptions are not only laughable but is seems as if you are attempting to denigrating my character with underhanded remarks. No where in Rom. 11:22-27 does it mention the loss of salvation. Paul speaks of Israel and the Gentiles more as a whole rather than individual persons. The emphasis within these verses does not speak of salvation of individual persons but the extent of the blessings and privileges of the Jews and the Gentiles. Furthermore the context of that passage stresses the sovereignty of God and the assurance of His blessings regardless of His peoples shortcomings, including believers. In other words Paul is stressing assurance to the one who believes. This passage is not restricted to Salvation only but to the blessings of God and cannot be determined that those who are "cut off" lose their salvation since God is able to re-graft His people. You and other conditional security adherents have a knack of playing illusionists and reinterpreting scriptures to accommodate deceptive doctrines.

As to my not answering your questions, when are you going to post an answer to my questions? So far you have side stepped every question put to you on this thread in a futile attempt to obfuscate the Lord’s teaching as well as what Paul, Peter, John, and the author of Hebrews plainly teach and that is that some “genuine believers” will fall away and/or become apostate.

In a congregation of 100 people you will have some who are nothing more than sightseerers, some who are weak and can be influenced by false doctrines, some who live an obedient life for decades and some will(like Billy Graham and Mel White) depart from God’s truth and some who will stand on God’s truth even to the loss of their lives. It is this last category who will "endure to the end" all others will be subject to the wrath of God and an eternity in the lake of fire.

I have sidestepped every question put to me on this thread!?..... Yeah Aineo, sure, GOOD ONE! The very last words in your response are not only preposterous but also demonstrate your lack of common sense. So if Billy Graham and Mel White departed from Gods truth, does this mean that their Salvation is lost? And if so how do you reconcile this comment from your previous posts". Since you want to appeal to the The New Unger's Bible definition of Apostasy, it defines "apostasy" as being different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both (error and heresy) may accordingly be consistent with true faith. Now if you agree with the entire interpretation of The New Unger's Bible Dictionary, then you must take into consideration that Billy Graham and Mel White may not be apostates if they in fact confessed with their mouths and believed in their hearts the Lord Jesus, and if you consider them apostates then you must take into consideration that they may have not been saved since "Apostates" apparently can only be professors and not actual possessors of true salvation according to The New Unger's Bible definition of an apostate. A little advice, if you are in any way implying that either Billy Graham or Mel White had lost their Salvation then you may want to consider what Jesus said:

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. (Luke 6:37)

Jesus strictly warns against the high-handed condemnation of others, it is God's task alone to render a judgment that condemns and not, you, me or anyone for that matter.

So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.

This entire thread deals "Salvation" and whether or not we can lose it, so did Billy Graham and Mel White lose their salvation? And if so, how do you conclude this since the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end? Key word is "SAVED". Critical interpretation and hermeneutical examination of the scriptures have bore witness that Conditional Security is a manmade doctrine. Furthermore it is known to accuse the doctrine of Eternal Security as a "license to sin" by disregarding the nature of the born-again believer who lives not according to the flesh, nor of the will of man but of God.

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4:14-16)

God Bless!

[Aineo]

You ask if I have the humility to admit I am wrong; tell me (Omega) do you have the humility to admit you are wrong on this issue? You have acccused me of inserting words into Scripture; now prove it.

You seem to have a problem with commentaries and dictionaries, has it entered your mind that Paul's epistles are commentaries on God's truth? Probably not since you are appealing to your understanding and your doctrines by pulling verses out of context, which I have abundently demonstrated.

You asked me to demonstrate that those who depart were ever saved in the first place and then ignore how many times I have posted this:

Romans 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. NAS

So how have you responded? By quoting what James taught concerning the first half (belief) of what Paul wrote while totally ignoring the last half.

You now say that the "essentials of Christianity" are God's truth while at the same time denying God's truth that plainly states some will depart from the faith and some will become apostate. And how do you handle those Scriptures that teach that some will fall away and some will become apostate? "They were never saved in the first place" while not defining "who is saved in the first place" according to your theology. This (Omega) is sophomoric hubris taken to the extreme.

What is ludicrous about your remarks concerning dictionaries is that dictionaries define words and words are how we communicate. If people cannot agree on the definition of a word then effective communication is impossible. If you are so dead set against defining words how come you resort to Greek lexicons?

No one can depart from a faith they never held; no one can depart from God's truth unless they once accepted God's truth. So how do you try to show that "depart" does not mean, "depart"? By quoting Scripture that demonstrates people departed from one physical location to another, that Paul prayed that his thorn in the flesh would "depart", and etc. basically demonstrating that "depart" means to leave, which actually proves my stance that people can "depart" from the faith or to use your definition of "the faith" they can "depart" from the essential doctrines of Christianity as Mel White and Billy Graham have done; one by advocating gay theology while willfully sinning by living with his gay lover and the other advocating salvation through other means than faith in Jesus Christ. So this brings us back to the very definition of apostasy.

Now you can either resort to personal attacks that don’t advance God’s truth or you can humbly accept God’s truth the choice is yours. Paul took his own advice by couching his warnings with gentleness, which is why you see so many “if” that precede those warnings. When Paul writes that “if” you continue in the faith you will not be cut off, the reverse is also true that “if” you do not continue in the faith you will be cut off.

Matthew 7:15-23

15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'
NAS

Those Jesus rejects are those who proudly appeal to their kingdom building efforts. Now were these rejected souls never saved? Only the saved can cast out demons, perform miracles, and prophecy in Jesus’ name since these can only be done by the power of the Holy Spirit. This truth can be shown by these Scriptures:

Luke 11:14-20

14 And He was casting out a demon, and it was dumb; and it came about that when the demon had gone out, the dumb man spoke; and the multitudes marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons." 16 And others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven. 17 But He knew their thoughts, and said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls. 18 "And if Satan also is divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. 19 "And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Consequently they shall be your judges. 20 "But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
NAS

Acts 19:13-17
13 But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14 And seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this became known to all, both Jews and Greeks, who lived in Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all and the name of the Lord Jesus was being magnified. NAS

So why does Jesus reject them? I am willing to bet your response will be “they were never saved in the first place”, which is simply begging the question and raises other questions. The rejected ones thought they were saved because they performed exorcisms, performed miracles, and prophesied in the name of the Lord but they were deceived by “doctrines of demons”.

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer. NAS

OSAS promotes this attitude and this result:

Luke 12:16-21
16 And He told them a parable, saying, "The land of a certain rich man was very productive. 17 "And he began reasoning to himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?' 18 "And he said, 'This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19'And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."' 20 "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?' 21 "So is the man who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." NAS

[(Omega)]

If I am wrong then I will admit to it, however I will not admit to a false doctrine which you teach by perverting the Gospel. Aineo, your entire response do not refute what I have refuted. Your only responses to my rebuttals are displacing your negative attitudes upon others to give them a guilt trip and superseding my responses with your failed rebuttals.

What is ludicrous about your remarks concerning dictionaries is that dictionaries define words and words are how we communicate. If people cannot agree on the definition of a word then effective communication is impossible. If you are so dead set against defining words how come you resort to Greek lexicons?

No one can depart from a faith they never held; no one can depart from God's truth unless they once accepted God's truth. So how do you try to show that "depart" does not mean, "depart"? By quoting Scripture that demonstrates people departed from one physical location to another, that Paul prayed that his thorn in the flesh would "depart", and etc. basically demonstrating that "depart" means to leave, which actually proves my stance that people can "depart" from the faith or to use your definition of "the faith" they can "depart" from the essential doctrines of Christianity as Mel White and Billy Graham have done; one by advocating gay theology while willfully sinning by living with his gay lover and the other advocating salvation through other means than faith in Jesus Christ. So this brings us back to the very definition of apostasy.

Now you can either resort to personal attacks that don’t advance God’s truth or you can humbly accept God’s truth the choice is yours. Paul took his own advice by couching his warnings with gentleness, which is why you see so many “if” that precede those warnings. When Paul writes that “if” you continue in the faith you will not be cut off, the reverse is also true that “if” you do not continue in the faith you will be cut off.

Doesn't that sound a bit hypocritical, since you used lexicons and definitions to try and disprove my argument? Any reproof which comes your way is classified as a personal attack, would you like me to search this board and demonstrate your hypocrisy? Nevertheless, I'm not going to waste my time listening to your mudslinging since I know that it is another tactic to sidetrack me. Too many times and counting, how does to leave the faith denote loss of Salvation or prove that they once possessed faith? Once again how is faith defined? and don't use the excuse of absurdity of word definitions, because in order to effectively communicate and interpret words in their correct context, word definitions are a must. The faith is defined as "revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ and the redemption through His atoning sacrifice". You can depart from a faith and not possess faith since "apostasy" is an act of a professed Christian and mere profession is not an indication of faith. What is disturbing is that your analogy of gay theology is a primary example of how you have distorted Gods word and pulled them completely out of context by neglecting the precise definitions when broken down. To state that no one can depart from a faith they never held; no one can depart from God's truth unless they once accepted God's truth isn't completely true, what you fail to realize is that this does not imply that those who depart from their faith actually accepted it as truth since self-professed Christians can depart. Furthermore any self-professed Christian can depart from a faith, this does not mean that they actually believed in what they held, common sense! Your very mention that those who apostasize and depart from the faith were in fact saved is the epitome of inserting words into scripture, theres your proof "If" you do not continue in the faith you will be cut off? Cut off from what? That entire passage is not restricted to Salvation as you and other conditional security adherents try to advocate, but in plain context deals with Gods ability to not only re-graft His people despite their failures, but also the blessings and privileges that are extended to the Jews and the Gentiles. Your removing one pea from a pod and calling that one pea a pod. I never directly stated that "they were never saved in the first place", your trying to get the upper hand while at the same time avoiding a question which has been proposed over and over again. What I did point out is the fact that your feeble argument that those who apostasize were in fact saved which you have yet to prove.

So why does Jesus reject them? I am willing to bet your response will be “they were never saved in the first place”, which is simply begging the question and raises other questions. The rejected ones thought they were saved because they performed exorcisms, performed miracles, and prophesied in the name of the Lord but they were deceived by “doctrines of demons”.

Luke 11:14-20

14 And He was casting out a demon, and it was dumb; and it came about that when the demon had gone out, the dumb man spoke; and the multitudes marveled. 15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons." 16 And others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven. 17 But He knew their thoughts, and said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls. 18 "And if Satan also is divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. 19 "And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Consequently they shall be your judges. 20 "But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
NAS

Acts 19:13-17
13 But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14 And seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 And this became known to all, both Jews and Greeks, who lived in Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all and the name of the Lord Jesus was being magnified. NAS

What a cop out to my rebuttal, I have already proven numerous times on this thread and even established beyond doubt that my argument was tried, tested and true, and anyone on this board except you can see for themselves. If in fact that those who are to be rejected on that day cast out demons did it by the power of God, then Jesus' words are in direct conflict with His very own.

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. (Mark 9:38-40)

Once again, CONTEXT is important in this passage, what does the person who gets rejected by Jesus actually say? What questions are asked to the LORD?

a). Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
b). And in thy name have cast out devils?
c). And in thy name done many wonderful works?

Jesus' ANSWER?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus' answer is Clearly NO! Plain context shows that these people claimed to have cast out devils, done many wonderful works and prophesied in His name, which is the very reason why many are rejected on that day, especially those who try and secure salvation by their own merits and living sinful lifestyles and in hypocrisy professing to be Christian. Instead of categorizing teachers and believers of OSASers as those who have "seared consciences" and those living sinful lifestyles while turning a blind eye to the eternal consequences, you neglect the sincerity of those who teach OSAS also teach that those who live according to the flesh "WILL NOT" inherit the Kingdom of God!

The attitude of Conditional Security adherents are similar to:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:10-14)

The Pharisees pride and contempt for other reveal the true state of their heart. The heart is regarded as the seat of sin. The sinners action implies acute contrition and a sense of personal unworthiness and to obtain forgiveness, he thinks not of his own merits but solely on God's mercy. Conditional Security followers can attempt to secure Salvation by this route and will be doomed for failure, Salvation is secured by putting our complete trust in "Christs finished work" on the cross and not ours, and this does not include living in sin.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

Yes, I do resort to lexicons and dictionaries since I am not so arrogant as to think I know the meaning of every word in the Greek and English languages, which apparently you do since you are the one who choose to denigrate me to doing what any child should do in order to gain a full understanding of any language.

I see you did not post any proof that I inserted words into Scripture, therefore I take it you agree that was a false accusation and since you cannot show where I have done this it is proof that you have resorted to personal attacks.

As to everyone on this board seeing me as being in error I really doubt that is true. You see (Omega) not all members of this board accept OSAS or even accept Christianity as truth so now you are allowing your anger that someone dares to disagree with you cloud your perceptions. Lutheran's, Anglican's, Methodist's, Congregationalist's, and all other Christian's who belong to denominations not founded on Calvin's precepts deny OSAS as a valid doctrine so if you want to appeal to the majority they will side with me not you.

One of the questions you have avoided is, "who is saved?". Paul tells us one thing and your response is an attempt to show that Paul is wrong. Jesus tells us that some will fall away and only those who endure to the end will be saved and but you even call Jesus a liar. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, therefore since the vehicle of our salvation is through faith it is only logical that loose of faith equates to loss of salvation. God's word is clear that some will fall away from the faith and some will become apostates. All you have done with your hubris is attempt to denigrate the Holy Spirit by denying the truth of what He inspired the NT authors to write and that (Omega) comes very close to blasphemy.

I will save you the trouble of searching this message board to find examples of me attacking individuals who attack me and Christianity since I admit I have, but then one of your favorite tactics is to attack people who disagree with you, which is why you have been banned more than once. So before you search this message board to gather evidence to convict me remember that when you point a finger you have three pointing back at you.

I have labeled your rhetoric sophomoric hubris, which describes your methods not you. And until you can stick to the topic of this thread I will continue to disregard your sophomoric hubris and try to stay on point, which is what the Bible plainly teaches not what some people want to believe so they can feel good about how they live their lives.

[(Omega)]

I am not angry Aineo, as a matter of fact I find your rebuttals entertaining and amusing, so please cease from your accusations, it is your word against mine and your childlike tactics of displacing your faults on others and especially me is transparent. Despite your childish finger pointing, I will neglect this nonsense and stick with my argument. Now please don't sidestep my argument with rhetorical nonsense, call my methods sophomoric hubris if you wish because I could care less, all I want is for you to stop running from my argument and answer them for once. Your dancing around scriptures in your vain attempt to disprove what you obviously cannot. How many times does apostasy need to be defined? How does (enduring to the end) prove that a saved person can somehow lose their salvation from the time they obtain it till the end? The Bible clearly states that those who are born of God endures to the end.

Characteristics of a born-again believer:

• But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)
• Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)
• If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29)
• For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4)
• We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18)

And for nearly the tenth time, how do you reconcile this comment from your previous posts:

So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.

Then claim that Billy Graham and Mel White and others have already become apostate, if your definition of apostate equates to the "loss of salvation", then your at a loss because your argument not only displays fallacy but conflicts with sound doctrine.

Paul taught apostasy or the falling away from the faith, he did not teach that those who actually "fell away" were in FACT saved. Then you have the audacity of saying that I denigrate the Holy Spirit and Jesus? That is called slander. You have YET to prove that those who have "departed" "fell away" (aphistemi) once possessed Salvation which has been my premise from the get go. The only passage that states that a "believer" can actually depart from their belief is found in Luke 8:13, and even that verse does not validate that those who "fall away" actually once obtained Salvation. The word for "believe" is (pisteuo) and is found in James 2:19 where it states that the demons also "believe" (pisteuo). Now you can argue that no demon is going to confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, however that argument is faulty because the same can be said about a person that believes (just as the demons) while not confessing with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, then "fall away". Furthermore, the demons of Gadarene fully acknowledged with action that Jesus is "the Son of God" (Matt. 8:29). I certainly hope that in your next response that you will not continue with accusations but stick with the topic "Salvation" and whether or not one can lose it, which BTW you have yet to prove.

God Bless!

[(Omega)]

Yes, I do resort to lexicons and dictionaries since I am not so arrogant as to think I know the meaning of every word in the Greek and English languages, which apparently you do since you are the one who choose to denigrate me to doing what any child should do in order to gain a full understanding of any language.

Aineo, you need to stop with the slanderings, it is sickening. The lexicons and dictionaries are what defines the meaning, not me. You simply want to ignore them in context.

This paragraph deleted for violation of Forum Rules. If your only defense of OSAS is to resort to childish trantrums maybe you need another enforced sabbatical.

Characteristics of a born-again believer:

• But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)
• Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)
• If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29)
• For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4)
• We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18)

And for nearly the tenth time, how do you reconcile this comment from your previous posts:

So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.

Then claim that Billy Graham and Mel White and others have already become apostate, if your definition of apostate equates to the "loss of salvation", then your at a loss because your argument not only displays fallacy but conflicts with sound doctrine.

Paul taught apostasy or the falling away from the faith, he did not teach that those who actually "fell away" were in FACT saved. Then you have the audacity of saying that I denigrate the Holy Spirit and Jesus? That is called slander. You have YET to prove that those who have "departed" "fell away" (aphistemi) once possessed Salvation which has been my premise from the get go. The only passage that states that a "believer" can actually depart from their belief is found in Luke 8:13, and even that verse does not validate that those who "fall away" actually once obtained Salvation. The word for "believe" is (pisteuo) and is found in James 2:19 where it states that the demons also "believe" (pisteuo). Now you can argue that no demon is going to confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, however that argument is faulty because the same can be said about a person that believes (just as the demons) while not confessing with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, then "fall away". Furthermore, the demons of Gadarene fully acknowledged with action that Jesus is "the Son of God" (Matt. 8:29). I certainly hope that in your next response that you will not continue with accusations but stick with the topic "Salvation" and whether or not one can lose it, which BTW you have yet to prove.

God Bless!

[(Omega)]

This paragraph deleted for violation of Forum Rules. If your only defense of OSAS is to resort to childish trantrums maybe you need another enforced sabbatical.

Aineo, there was absolutely nothing in my previous posts which remotely displays and attitude of Childish tantrums. I am not going to waste my time arguing against something which I know isn't true. Either we can get back on track, or you can continue in your fault-finding as a tactic to avoid answering my unanswered questions.

[Aineo]

Yes, I do resort to lexicons and dictionaries since I am not so arrogant as to think I know the meaning of every word in the Greek and English languages, which apparently you do since you are the one who choose to denigrate me to doing what any child should do in order to gain a full understanding of any language.

Aineo, you need to stop with the slanderings, it is sickening. The lexicons and dictionaries are what defines the meaning, not me. You simply want to ignore them in context.

Really? It seems to me that when all Bible dictionaries define "apostasy" the same way and you take exception to the definition it is you who refuse to accept the context not only of the definition but Scriptures that contain the English or Greek word that means apostasy. As to being slanderous what do you call those who pervert God's truth by attempting to explain away what Jesus taught?

Characteristics of a born-again believer:

• But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)
• Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)
• If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29)
• For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4)
• We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18)

[/quote]Well, at least you have finally posted something worth reading, but here again you are taking 1 John out of context. For instance explain 1 John 3:9 in light of this:

1 John 1:5-10

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. KJV

1 reason I like the NAS over the KJ is that 1 John 3:9 reads:

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. NAS

The same comment applies to 1 John 5:19 since according to you it contradicts 1 John 1:5-10. As to 1 John 5:4 this verse is actually one that proves my point not yours since John writes that we overcome by faith.

Now lets take a look at John 1:12-13

John 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
KJV

Verse 12 plainly states that “as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”. Verse 13 then tells us that we are born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. These two verses do not even indicate OSAS all they indicate is God gives those who receive Jesus are given the power to become sons of God.

Then claim that Billy Graham and Mel White and others have already become apostate, if your definition of apostate equates to the "loss of salvation", then your at a loss because your argument not only displays fallacy but conflicts with sound doctrine.

This statement is simply ludicrous since those who fall into apostasy are those who once stood on God’s truth and then start to teach false doctrine like Jesus is not the only path to salvation and that committed gay relationships are okay in the eyes of a Holy God. In other words as Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Billy Graham and Mel White have both fallen in gross theological error, which is the definition of apostasy. Also you have misquoted me I did not post that White and Graham have fallen away from the faith, I posted they have become apostate. Falling away and apostasy as not the same thing but they have the same result and that result is an eternity in the lake of fire as per God’s revealed truth.

Paul taught apostasy or the falling away from the faith, he did not teach that those who actually "fell away" were in FACT saved. Then you have the audacity of saying that I denigrate the Holy Spirit and Jesus? That is called slander. You have YET to prove that those who have "departed" "fell away" (aphistemi) once possessed Salvation which has been my premise from the get go. The only passage that states that a "believer" can actually depart from their belief is found in Luke 8:13, and even that verse does not validate that those who "fall away" actually once obtained Salvation. The word for "believe" is (pisteuo) and is found in James 2:19 where it states that the demons also "believe" (pisteuo). Now you can argue that no demon is going to confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, however that argument is faulty because the same can be said about a person that believes (just as the demons) while not confessing with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, then "fall away". Furthermore, the demons of Gadarene fully acknowledged with action that Jesus is "the Son of God" (Matt. 8:29). I certainly hope that in your next response that you will not continue with accusations but stick with the topic "Salvation" and whether or not one can lose it, which BTW you have yet to prove.

Once again how can one fall way or depart from something they never possessed in the first place? However, James states that demons “believe” but demons do not confess that Jesus Christ is Lord so you are again trying to establish your thesis by ignoring parts of Scripture.

Matthew 8:29

29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? KJV

I fail to see how you get that these demons declared Jesus Christ is Lord. All they did was acknowledge Jesus is the Son of God. In other words those demons did not meet the criteria of believing and confessing that Jesus Christ is their Lord, they confessed Jesus Christ is their judge!

You insist this thread deals with salvation and then attempt to side step how we are saved.

Luke 7:44-50

44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
KJV

Luke 18:39-43

39 And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

40 And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,

41 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.

42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.
KJV

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
KJV

Now since you keep insisting those who fall way were never saved in the first place, my question still stands: “How do you know who is and who is not saved?” You insist that you are saved, which is between you and God and something I cannot comment on since I do not know what is in your heart. So you tell me how you know what is in the heart of those who fall away and/or become apostate? The truth is you cannot and to make the statement “they were never saved in the first place” is an attempt to place yourself as the judge of mankind.

Also you have yet to establish that once saved a person cannot loose their salvation, especially in light of what Jesus and Paul plainly teach and both plainly teach that men will fall away as the result of tribulation and following false prophets who teach false doctrine and to deny that this is true is to call Jesus and the Holy Spirit liars.

Oh and btw, the characteristics of a born again believer you posted, I know lots of cult members who meet your criteria or again have you forgotten the debate with the oneness groups especially those from the United Pentecostal Church. One characteristic you failed to post is:

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. NAS

And for nearly the tenth time, how do you reconcile this comment from your previous posts:

So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.

How do I reconcile Jesus' teaching that only those who endure to the end will be saved? I don't, I simply blieve it as truth. And if you put what I posted in context of the original post I was asking you how you can determine who is and who is not saved since "they were never saved in the first place" could easily apply to all professed Christians who are not part of the first resurrection. And that includes OSAS advocates and conditional security advocates since God is no respector of persons and will not judge us based on "essential doctrines of Christianity" put on His criteria, which is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

[Aineo]

As to me not answering your questions, when have you answered this one: How can on fall away or depart from some place or some thing they never possessed or never occupied?

However, lets see if we can get this thread back on track. According to OSAS once we are born again our salvation is assured and no one who is truly “born again” can loose his salvation. So lets see if this is what Scripture teaches.

John 3:1-7
3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. KJV

I have no argument with this. In order to see heaven one must be “born again”.

Now, what does Jesus teach in Matthew 24?

Matthew 24:4-13

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

Paul echoes this in:

1 Timothy 4:1-3
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
KJV

Paul also warns:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

In Hebrews we learn:

Hebrews 9:27-28

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. KJV

Who will dies only to be judged? Those who are not saved since John writes:

John 3:16-21

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. KJV

So we can discern from these Scriptures that those who do not believe will be judged. Now Jesus warns the church in Smyrna:

Revelation 2:8-11

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. KJV

What is the “second death” and who is subject to the “second death”? We can eliminate those who never believed since they were never born twice. Only Christians can be “born again”.

Revelation 20:6

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

Revelation 20:14-15

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

Revelation 21:8

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV

The only people who can die twice are those who are born twice and the only people born twice are Christians who are born again in accordance with what Jesus told Nicodemus. Now unless you can prove by Scripture that those who die in their sins are born twice and die twice you cannot establish OSAS as a sound doctrine.

What is truly said about those who advocate OSAS is that those who are born again and then willfully sin such as Mel White or become apostate like Billy Graham live with a false sense of security that is not taught in Scripture.

[(Omega)]

Really? It seems to me that when all Bible dictionaries define "apostasy" the same way and you take exception to the definition it is you who refuse to accept the context not only of the definition but Scriptures that contain the English or Greek word that means apostasy.

Hmmm..... lets see for ourselves who fails to take the precise defintion of the word "apostasy in context. Lets examine in context your bolded section of the apostasy being defined.

APOSTASY. A "falling away." The common classical use of the word has to do with a political defection (Genesis 14:4, LXX; 2 Chronicles 13:6, LXX; Acts 5:37). In the NT its more usual meaning is that of a religious defection (21:21; 4:1; 3:12). This is called "apostasy from the faith" (apostasia a fide): a secession from the church, and a disowning of the name of Christ. Some of its peculiar characteristics are mentioned, such as seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, hypocritical lying, a seared conscience, forbidding of marriage and of meats, a form of godliness without the power (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:5). The grave nature of apostasy is shown by such passages as Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:15-21, and John 15:22. Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. On the other hand, apostasy departs from the faith but not from the outward profession of it (2 Timothy 3:5). Apostasy, whether among the angels (Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:15; Jude 6), in Israel (Isaiah 1:1-6; 5:5-7), or in the church (Revelation 3:14-16) is irremediable and awaits judgment. Mankind's apostasy in Adam (Genesis 3:6-7) is curable only through the sacrifice of Christ. Apostates apparently can only be professors and not actual possessors of true salvation, otherwise their defection would incur severe chastening or, if this failed to restore them, untimely (physical) death (1 Corinthians 5:5; 11:32; 1 John 5:16).
M.F.U.
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

APOSTASY
A falling away from the faith. The nation of Israel fell into repeated backslidings (Jeremiah 5:6, RSV). The prophet Jeremiah predicted the judgment of God upon such disloyalty: "Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will reprove you" (Jeremiah 2:19, RSV).

Some of the noted apostates in the Bible are: King Saul, who turned back from following the Lord (1 Samuel 15:11); Hymenaeus and Alexander, who "suffered shipwreck" of their faith (1 Timothy 1:19-20); and Demas, who forsook the apostle Paul because he loved this present world (2 Timothy 4:10).

In Acts 21:21 the apostle Paul was described falsely as one who taught the Jews living among the Gentiles to commit apostasy (forsake, NKJV). Second Thessalonians 2:3> declares that the Day of Christ "will not come unless the apostasy comes first" (NASB). This great apostasy will be the time of "the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, NEB).

Apostasy is generally defined as the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Hebrews 10:26-29; John 15:22). This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance. Some Christian groups teach that apostasy is impossible for those persons who have truly accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Now lets see mines: (P.S. The large fonts isn't me yelling)

APOSTASY. A "falling away." The common classical use of the word has to do with a political defection (Genesis 14:4, LXX; 2 Chronicles 13:6, LXX; Acts 5:37). In the NT its more usual meaning is that of a religious defection (21:21; 4:1; 3:12). This is called "apostasy from the faith" (apostasia a fide): a secession from the church, and a disowning of the name of Christ. Some of its peculiar characteristics are mentioned, such as seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, hypocritical lying, a seared conscience, forbidding of marriage and of meats, a form of godliness without the power (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:5). The grave nature of apostasy is shown by such passages as Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:15-21, and John 15:22. Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. On the other hand, apostasy departs from the faith but not from the outward profession of it (2 Timothy 3:5). Apostasy, whether among the angels (Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:15; Jude 6), in Israel (Isaiah 1:1-6; 5:5-7), or in the church (Revelation 3:14-16) is irremediable and awaits judgment. Mankind's apostasy in Adam (Genesis 3:6-7) is curable only through the sacrifice of Christ. Apostates apparently can only be professors and (not actual possessors of true salvation), otherwise their defection would incur severe chastening or, if this failed to restore them, untimely (physical) death (1 Corinthians 5:5; 11:32; 1 John 5:16).
M.F.U.
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

APOSTASY
A falling away from the faith. The nation of Israel fell into repeated backslidings (Jeremiah 5:6, RSV). The prophet Jeremiah predicted the judgment of God upon such disloyalty: "Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will reprove you" (Jeremiah 2:19, RSV).

Some of the noted apostates in the Bible are: King Saul, who turned back from following the Lord (1 Samuel 15:11); Hymenaeus and Alexander, who "suffered shipwreck" of their faith (1 Timothy 1:19-20); and Demas, who forsook the apostle Paul because he loved this present world (2 Timothy 4:10).

In Acts 21:21 the apostle Paul was described falsely as one who taught the Jews living among the Gentiles to commit apostasy (forsake, NKJV). Second Thessalonians 2:3> declares that the Day of Christ "will not come unless the apostasy comes first" (NASB). This great apostasy will be the time of "the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, NEB).

Apostasy is generally defined as the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Hebrews 10:26-29; John 15:22). This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance. Some Christian groups teach that apostasy is impossible for those persons who have truly accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Well, at least you have finally posted something worth reading, but here again you are taking 1 John out of context. For instance explain 1 John 3:9 in light of this:

1 John 1:5-10

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. KJV

1 reason I like the NAS over the KJ is that 1 John 3:9 reads:

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. NAS

The same comment applies to 1 John 5:19 since according to you it contradicts 1 John 1:5-10. As to 1 John 5:4 this verse is actually one that proves my point not yours since John writes that we overcome by faith.

Yeah...Ok Aineo, thats fantastic. I agree with your NAS translation, however I don't see your relation between apostasy and faith. Apostasy is defined as rejection of "the faith" which by definition is the revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ and the redemption through His atoning sacrifice. If you were to go back several posts you will see that The New Unger's Bible Dictionary agrees to this. Secondly apostasy is committed by a professing Christian and not necessarily someone who possesses faith. I don't see how overcoming by faith and departing from the faith is related? You failed to take into consideration (1 John 5:4) which states that "whatsoever is born of God (overcometh) the world" This brings me back to the age old question: Prove that those who commit apostasy either lost their salvation or once obtained it by faith.

Now lets take a look at John 1:12-13

John 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
KJV

Verse 12 plainly states that “as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”. Verse 13 then tells us that we are born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. These two verses do not even indicate OSAS all they indicate is God gives those who receive Jesus are given the power to become sons of God.

And? When do we become sons of God? When we believe on his name and when we receive him. (John 1:12) What your are stating is that you, me, nor the apostles of Christ were ever considered the sons of God until the end.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

1 John 3:2 utterly refutes your argument, the words "are we" (esmen) is in the present tense which indicates that we are the sons of God at the occuring time and not the future.

This statement is simply ludicrous since those who fall into apostasy are those who once stood on God’s truth and then start to teach false doctrine like Jesus is not the only path to salvation and that committed gay relationships are okay in the eyes of a Holy God. In other words as Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Billy Graham and Mel White have both fallen in gross theological error, which is the definition of apostasy. Also you have misquoted me I did not post that White and Graham have fallen away from the faith, I posted they have become apostate. Falling away and apostasy as not the same thing but they have the same result and that result is an eternity in the lake of fire as per God’s revealed truth.

The New Unger's Bible defines Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. According to the New Unger's Bible dictionary, defining Billy Graham and Mel White as "apostates" is contradicting and does not prove that either Billy Graham or Mel White actually LOST their Salvation.

Once again how can one fall way or depart from something they never possessed in the first place? However, James states that demons “believe” but demons do not confess that Jesus Christ is Lord so you are again trying to establish your thesis by ignoring parts of Scripture.

Matthew 8:29

29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? KJV

I fail to see how you get that these demons declared Jesus Christ is Lord. All they did was acknowledge Jesus is the Son of God. In other words those demons did not meet the criteria of believing and confessing that Jesus Christ is their Lord, they confessed Jesus Christ is their judge!

So basically what you are in essence are saying is that their Judge is not their Lord, thats like me calling Jesus my judge and denying that He is also Lord. But I suppose the demons can obtain salvation by actually saying that "Jesus is Lord"? You missed my point, my point is that the demons also believe as those who fall away also believe, thus there is a distinction between just belief and the belief that saves. How do we distinguish between the two? Jesus spoke about it in the parables of a belief that is rooted and a belief that isn't. The only passage that proves that you can in fact "fall away" after once believing as found in Luke 8:13, however this does not prove that those who do either lost their salvation or obtained it. Lets see what Jesus Himself has to say in regards to falling away from belief. To state that the person who "falls away" once obtained Salvation is preposterous as saying that the unfruitful can be considered as born-again. In John 15:2 Jesus states that the branch that does not bring forth (no fruit) is taken away, and that the branch that does produce fruits are "pruned" meaning cleansed. And that only by abiding in Him can there be production of fruits. If you take into consideration of how exactly one falls away as spoken by Jesus Himself, you will see that those who "fall away" are false professors of Christianity that have never produced fruit (unregenerate). In the parable of the sower and the four soils, all but one actually give life and produces fruit while all others remain in their desolate state. John 15:1-8 is parallel to Mark 4:2-20. There are four kinds of people who hear the Gospel. There are unresponsive people, they by the wayside fail to respond to the see or word (Gospel) sown, so Satan quickly removes it lest they be saved (Lk. 8:12). Then there are impulsive people, the stony ground, are those who immediately receive the word (the Gospel), but not counting the cost, have no root in themselves. They believe for a while (Lk. 8:13) but soon are offended (defect from the truth) because of persecution. Their rejection of the Gospel is just as speedy as their reception of it. Then there are preoccupied people, those among thorns, who allow the (cares of this world) and the (deceitfulness of riches and lusts) to take priority over the gospel. Finally there are those who on the good ground, hear and receive (take to heart) the gospel, which "(bears the fruit) of faith, obedience and fidelity in them" Jesus clearly associates those (fall away) fail to bring forth fruit and is a clear indication of someone who is unregenerate. A branch is not always considered a saved person because Jesus Himself said "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" There are dried and withered branches which are fruitless, then there is the branch that abides in the vine and continually produces fruit by pruning. The person who "departs from the faith" or "falls away" is not only a person who fails to produce fruit, but also a dried and withered branch that does not abide in the vine.

You insist this thread deals with salvation and then attempt to side step how we are saved.

Luke 7:44-50

44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
KJV

Luke 18:39-43

39 And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

40 And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,

41 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.

42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.
KJV

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
KJV

Sorry Aineo, but LOL!
So the bolded words are proof that they were in fact saved? If so, how do you reconcile this comment?

So the only way you or I or anyone can determine with any certainty who is or is not saved is to wait until the end when those who are saved will be taken in the first resurrection.

Now since you keep insisting those who fall way were never saved in the first place, my question still stands: “How do you know who is and who is not saved?” You insist that you are saved, which is between you and God and something I cannot comment on since I do not know what is in your heart. So you tell me how you know what is in the heart of those who fall away and/or become apostate? The truth is you cannot and to make the statement “they were never saved in the first place” is an attempt to place yourself as the judge of mankind.

Also you have yet to establish that once saved a person cannot loose their salvation, especially in light of what Jesus and Paul plainly teach and both plainly teach that men will fall away as the result of tribulation and following false prophets who teach false doctrine and to deny that this is true is to call Jesus and the Holy Spirit liars.

Oh and btw, the characteristics of a born again believer you posted, I know lots of cult members who meet your criteria or again have you forgotten the debate with the oneness groups especially those from the United Pentecostal Church. One characteristic you failed to post is:

Aineo, in all honesty, I don't know if the UPC members were in fact "born of God" and not just self-professed Christians. I can claim to be born of God and at the same time be an impulsive murderer. Secondly, it cannot be proven that those who fall away actually possessed salvation, if you read this entire post carefully it will substantiate this.

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. NAS

Aineo, who is it that does the "will of God"?

Those who were born of God, thats who.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)

How do I reconcile Jesus' teaching that only those who endure to the end will be saved? I don't, I simply blieve it as truth. And if you put what I posted in context of the original post I was asking you how you can determine who is and who is not saved since "they were never saved in the first place" could easily apply to all professed Christians who are not part of the first resurrection. And that includes OSAS advocates and conditional security advocates since God is no respector of persons and will not judge us based on "essential doctrines of Christianity" put on His criteria, which is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

You believe or you know? I can simply believe also that they were never saved in the first place, does this necessarily make it true? I have already pointed to numerous scriptures which prove that salvation cannot be lost, so what are the other scenarios? However you won't accept this even after I proved it on many of my posts. If you go back to your previous response, you pointed to those who were saved (salvation) by their faith according to Jesus' response to them, if that were true then how do you reconcile "enduring to the end" to be saved?

Aineo, I have been through each and every one of those arguments found in your second post directly above this before. Your reposting the same questions which I have already answered in my previous posts in an endless debate. You have in essence wasted your time quoting (Matt. 24:4-13; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Thess. 2:1-4; Rev. 2:8-11)

Go back and read who it is that "overcomes" and who it is that "falls away"

The word for "be offended" is [4624] skandalizo, skan-dal-id'-zo; from 4625; to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):--(make to) offend. And this does not prove that those who apostasize or "stumble" actually possessed Salvation, this has been repeated too many times before.

The only people who can die twice are those who are born twice and the only people born twice are Christians who are born again in accordance with what Jesus told Nicodemus. Now unless you can prove by Scripture that those who die in their sins are born twice and die twice you cannot establish OSAS as a sound doctrine.

What is truly said about those who advocate OSAS is that those who are born again and then willfully sin such as Mel White or become apostate like Billy Graham live with a false sense of security that is not taught in Scripture.

Revelation 20:6

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

Revelation 20:14-15

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

Revelation 21:8

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV

The only people who can die twice are those who are born twice? I'm not quite sure if I get this, and if I do then your argument doesn't really make any sense. Your interpretation of the "second death" is way out of context. What does the "second death" imply? The scriptures never refer to death as the mere cessation of life, but instead as the unnatural separation of something from which it belongs. Therefore a body without a spirit suffers physical death (Gen. 35:18). The expression "second death" defines the separation of a man from God. Human consciousness is conveyed in the biblical description of second death, suggesting that the beast and the false prophet will both remain alive for a thousand years after being cast into the lake of fire. Thus an unbelieving person can die once physically and suffer the effect of a "second death" in the lake of fire with the devil and his angels because of their unbelief. So how do Christians die twice? Do you consider devil worshippers among the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars? and if so, were they born twice?

God Bless!

[Aineo]

For anyone who knows anything about Internet etiquette posting in large fonts has always been considered screaming so your denial that you just love to scream rings hollow.

As to what you boldly in Ungers, the second word of the sentence is "apparently" not “absolutely”. Unger does not take a dogmatic stance that only professors can become apostate.

The New Unger's Bible defines Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. According to the New Unger's Bible dictionary, defining Billy Graham and Mel White as "apostates" is contradicting and does not prove that either Billy Graham or Mel White actually LOST their Salvation.

Okay, so did you read what Billy Graham is teaching? He is agreeing with Catholicism that one can be saved without “redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18, 2 Peter 2:1)”. So according to your preferred definition Billy Graham is in apostasy. As to Mel White that is also easy to prove since Mel White is willfully sinning by promoting gay theology and living as an out and proud gay man, he and his partner founded SoulForce. Also I did not post that Mel White is an apostate I posted that Mel White fell away from the faith by becoming a false teacher preacher false doctrine.

As to the demons who acknowledged Jesus is the Son of God, your response totally ignores who is to judge fallen angels and the lost.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? KJV

As an ex-con I was “judged” by an officer of the court who was not my Lord therefore it is not beyond the realm of possibilities that those demons viewed Jesus as judge and not Lord.

Your analysis of the parable of the vine falls short since you fail to consider how the pruned unproductive branches became part of the vine. I can again use Mel White as an example. For decades he was a very productive branch that became unproductive when he abandoned God’s truth in favor of gay theology. Another example of being pruned or “cut off” is found in Romans 11 where Paul uses the natural olive as a metaphor for the saved. Gentiles are grafted into the natural olive tree but are subject to being “cut off” if they do not continue in the faith.

How are we saved? By faith, which was the whole point of what I posted concerning faith in a prior post.

You insist that you have posted many Scriptures that show salvation cannot be lost when in reality what you posted is God’s part in a partnership. You have totally ignored all Scriptural warnings about the possibility of walking away from God’s truth by willfully sinning since we bear some responsibility to live a Godly life. So lets appeal to the Bible in lieu of opinions you cannot back up with Scripture. John writes that those who are born of God will not practice sin, which I agree with. However you cannot find any Scripture that plainly states one cannot die to God after being born again. In fact there are a plethora of warnings that the opposite is true.

You failed to take into consideration (1 John 5:4) which states that "whatsoever is born of God (overcometh) the world" This brings me back to the age old question: Prove that those who commit apostasy either lost their salvation or once obtained it by faith.

No I did not, you have refused to finish the sentence, which ends with [color=darkred]our faith[/quote] proving once again you pull Scripture out of context. The other age old question that OSAS advocates cannot respond to is: Prove that those who commit apostasy were not saved or never obtained salvation by faith.

Oh, your appeal to 1 John 3:2 reads “now” not now and forever.

Aineo, in all honesty, I don't know if the UPC members were in fact "born of God" and not just self-professed Christians. I can claim to be born of God and at the same time be an impulsive murderer. Secondly, it cannot be proven that those who fall away actually possessed salvation, if you read this entire post carefully it will substantiate this.

If you read the Bible carefully and with a desire to learn God’s truth OSAS is proven false. As to the UPC if you take the time to study their theology they teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and all the doctrines essential to Christianity but they add tongues as the only sign of salvation and deny the Trinity. Some of their members come out of other denominations that deny the gifts of the Spirit are available today. Therefore neither you nor I are in a position to judge or know if the members of the UPC are simply professors and were never possessors of salvation. All we can discern is that the UPC is a cult that teaches heresy.

The word for "be offended" is [4624] skandalizo, skan-dal-id'-zo; from 4625; to entrap, i.e. trip up (figuratively, stumble (transitively) or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure):--(make to) offend. And this does not prove that those who apostasize or "stumble" actually possessed Salvation, this has been repeated too many times before.

Repetition of a false hood does not make it true. You need to go back and read your own definition of “depart” and then explain to us how one can depart from a position of location they never possessed or attained. So far you have avoided that question.

Now, as to your rebuttal of the “second death”:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

When Adam sinned mankind died spiritually and to make sure he would die physically God placed an angel by the Tree of Life:

Genesis 3:22-24

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
KJV

All humans die a physical death but only those born again are alive in the Spirit so only those who are born again can die a “second death”.

[(Omega)]

For anyone who knows anything about Internet etiquette posting in large fonts has always been considered screaming so your denial that you just love to scream rings hollow.

As to what you boldly in Ungers, the second word of the sentence is "apparently" not “absolutely”. Unger does not take a dogmatic stance that only professors can become apostate.

And yet you choose to bold only a portion of the definition and commentary of "apostasy" which best suits your doctrine, hmmm.... And still with the accusations? They make me appear as if I have a problem maintaining my composure which denigrates my character on this board. If you want to use internet etiquette as a standard for judgment then shame on your part. You don't know me too well do you? Anyone who knows be just a bit knows that I have a habit of using large fonts as a posting style to show emphasis and stress my point at times, not yelling. I suppose the "Old Omega" was yelling in his signature also?

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?p=37873&highlight=#37873

Now see if you can get past your accusations towards me and engage in a civilized debate for once, because I know myself better than you know me to realize that your comment is not only absurd, but also demonstrates that you have poor discernment.

Okay, so did you read what Billy Graham is teaching? He is agreeing with Catholicism that one can be saved without “redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18, 2 Peter 2:1)”. So according to your preferred definition Billy Graham is in apostasy. As to Mel White that is also easy to prove since Mel White is willfully sinning by promoting gay theology and living as an out and proud gay man, he and his partner founded SoulForce. Also I did not post that Mel White is an apostate I posted that Mel White fell away from the faith by becoming a false teacher preacher false doctrine.

You didn't answer my question Aineo, since Billy Graham and Mel White are apostates, does this imply that their salvation is somehow lost? You keep bringing Billy Graham and Mel White into this discussion when all the while have no substantial evidence to prove that either Billy Graham OR Mel White were indeed saved, you yourself had said it with your own mouth, only God can determine who or who is not saved. Once again according to the New Unger's Bible dictionary, and apostate apparently can only be professors and (not actual possessors of true salvation).

As to the demons who acknowledged Jesus is the Son of God, your response totally ignores who is to judge fallen angels and the lost.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? KJV

As an ex-con I was “judged” by an officer of the court who was not my Lord therefore it is not beyond the realm of possibilities that those demons viewed Jesus as judge and not Lord.

Aineo, you, me, nor the officer of the court who judged you has the title of the "Son of God", and that is beside my point. The point which I am stressing is that the demons also believe, however their belief does not save them.

Your analysis of the parable of the vine falls short since you fail to consider how the pruned unproductive branches became part of the vine. I can again use Mel White as an example. For decades he was a very productive branch that became unproductive when he abandoned God’s truth in favor of gay theology. Another example of being pruned or “cut off” is found in Romans 11 where Paul uses the natural olive as a metaphor for the saved. Gentiles are grafted into the natural olive tree but are subject to being “cut off” if they do not continue in the faith.

How are we saved? By faith, which was the whole point of what I posted concerning faith in a prior post.

You insist that you have posted many Scriptures that show salvation cannot be lost when in reality what you posted is God’s part in a partnership. You have totally ignored all Scriptural warnings about the possibility of walking away from God’s truth by willfully sinning since we bear some responsibility to live a Godly life. So lets appeal to the Bible in lieu of opinions you cannot back up with Scripture. John writes that those who are born of God will not practice sin, which I agree with. However you cannot find any Scripture that plainly states one cannot die to God after being born again. In fact there are a plethora of warnings that the opposite is true.

Again with Mel White, being part of the vine is a metaphor and the unproductive vine does not represent a true convert anymore than a tare is represented as a true convert, both the wheat (true convert) and the tares (false convert) are together, just as the productive and the nonproductive branches are together. However just as the tares which do not come to fruition, so does the unproductive branch. And BOTH are cast into the fire to be burned. Your analysis of being "pruned" in comparison to the "loss of Salvation" is hilarious, John 15:2 actually states that the branches that are "pruned" are pruned to bring forth (MORE FRUIT), not loss of salvation. The branches that do not bring forth fruit are not "pruned" (kathairo:cleanse or to remove any impurity), they are "taken away" (airo:remove, put away). So you stating that there is such thing as a pruned unproductive branch is proven wrong. Therefore equating "cut off" (loss of salvation) to "pruned" is a complete distortion of scripture. Furthermore the term "cut off" does not denote loss of Salvation, take a look at this verse in the same passage:

I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. (Romans 11:11 NAS)

This is to ask whether Israel has stumbled so badly that they have fallen completely out of God's program. Is there no future for Israel? Paul shows that Israel's apparent rejection is not permanent because of God's purposes for Israel's rejection, and the promise of her restoration. Notice that Paul is not speaking of individual persons, but Jews and Gentiles colllectively. Thus to associate the term "cut off" with the loss of salvation and not the blessings of God is taking scriptures out of context. And IF one can die to God after being "born again", one way to do it would be to willfully sin, which apparently goes against the nature of those who are (born of God) who do not "practice sin", common sense and logical reasoning.

No I did not, you have refused to finish the sentence, which ends with our faith proving once again you pull Scripture out of context. The other age old question that OSAS advocates cannot respond to is: Prove that those who commit apostasy were not saved or never obtained salvation by faith.

Oh, your appeal to 1 John 3:2 reads “now” not now and forever.

Thank you for finishing 1 John 5:4 for me, IF the person fails to "overcome", then how are they born of God? Because 1 John 5:4 says that whatsoever is born of God (perfect, passive) overcometh (present, active) the world, which is literally stating that being born of God is a past event and is concluded in a future state and indicates that the one born of God continually overcomes, not somehow falling short and losing their salvation through unbelief. You said that 1 John 3:2 reads "now" not now and forever? And? What did you mean when you said that we become sons of God? You obviously were implying that we cannot be "sons of God" or saved until the end, correct? Well, 1 John 3:2 which reads now are we the sons of God , now (nun:the present time) are we (esmen:present tense), and that my friend refutes your interpretation that we cannot be sons of God until a future state.

If you read the Bible carefully and with a desire to learn God’s truth OSAS is proven false. As to the UPC if you take the time to study their theology they teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and all the doctrines essential to Christianity but they add tongues as the only sign of salvation and deny the Trinity. Some of their members come out of other denominations that deny the gifts of the Spirit are available today. Therefore neither you nor I are in a position to judge or know if the members of the UPC are simply professors and were never possessors of salvation. All we can discern is that the UPC is a cult that teaches heresy.

Isn't that what I said to a certain degree? that we are not to judge others? Then why do you do it? You have done it with Billy Graham and Mel White, do you have the ability to search their hearts? Do you know for certainty whether they were simply professors or possessors of Salvation? Aineo, I make and all out effort to read the bible carefully and with the desire to learn God's truth, and have spent countless hours doing so, so not only do your assumptions go right out the window, but by diligently studying the bible with a fervent dersire to learn God's truth has led me to know that Conditional Security is a manmade doctrine with bias interpretations and opinions.

Repetition of a false hood does not make it true. You need to go back and read your own definition of “depart” and then explain to us how one can depart from a position of location they never possessed or attained. So far you have avoided that question.

That is a poor analogy Aineo! Read it into context, depart means to "withdraw from", you don't have to possess faith to withdraw from the Gospel. If the person "attained" the Gospel, how does this somehow imply that the person possessed faith?

Now, as to your rebuttal of the “second death”:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

When Adam sinned mankind died spiritually and to make sure he would die physically God placed an angel by the Tree of Life:

Genesis 3:22-24

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
KJV

All humans die a physical death but only those born again are alive in the Spirit so only those who are born again can die a “second death”.

Aineo, the Lake of Fire is considered the "Second Death" and Revelation 20:14 actually says (This is the second death) to refer to the Lake of Fire. Now are you trying to tell me that the devil, the beast and the false prophet were somehow born twice? The Bible clearly says (whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.), those who are not found in the book of life includes all unbelievers, including those who die in sin. Then it goes on to say that "ALL LIARS" which would includes any unbeliever is cast into the Lake of Fire, and this is referred to as the "Second Death"

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14,15)

a). What is the second death? Punishment in the Lake of Fire.
b). Who is cast into the Lake of Fire? whosoever was not found written in the book of life.
c). Are devil worshipers, liars and unbelievers who were never (born again) and rejects God's offer of Salvation found written in the book of life? The obvious answer would be an emphatic NO!
d). And what happens to those who are not found written in the book of life? They are cast into the lake of fire, which is referred to as the "Second Death"

This is a perfect example how you have distorted and perverted the scriptures to accommodate your false doctrine, and by doing so you have compromised God's authoritative truth.

God Bless!

[Aineo]

One of the Scriptures you posted in support of OSAS is that believers can become the sons of God, also one reason Satan and his demons rebelled against God is they did not accept God as their Lord. So appealing to demons who acknowledge Jesus' paternity is nothing more than clouding the issue and begging the question as is "they were never saved in the first place.

Bolding and using colors to emphasize certain passages or portions of passages in Scripture and definitions is not the same as posting only portions of Scripture only those parts of a definition you think prove your point, or screaming. One thing Elijha learned is that God is not in the thunder but in the still small voice. Apparently you feel that screaming will make a valid point out of a lie. Screaming is infantile behavior that has no place in a rational discussion.

As to Unger's definition of "apostasy", "apparantly" does not mean "without a doubt". So once again you are trying to redefine words to establish a false doctrine.

As to engaging in rational and courteous discussions you need to take your own advise. As to the thread you linked to shall I search and find your posts on this board where you called all of us hate filled people out to get you? You even attacked those who supported you and sent PM's to other members slandering all the moderators. What you failed to consider is that those you communicated with would share your slander with those you slandered. So get off your self-righteous kick.

Now, do you think you can get away from "prove they were ever saved in the first place" and actually address Scripture?

How does one become a branch on the vine that is Christ? How does one get grafted into the natural olive tree? According to you non-believers are branches of the vine and branches on the natural olive, which denies what the Bible teaches as God's truth.

Have you ever read Mel White's writings prior to divorcing his wife and joining himself with his lover? You are arguing from a weak position since if Mel White was never saved then prove you are. The same applies to Billy Graham, if he was never saved then prove your or any human being that walked the earth was saved including the apostles. I will again ask for your criteria of who is and who is not saved. The last time you attempted to answer this question you posted charateristics of a believer not "essential doctrines of Christianity".

What you are trying to do is establish a doctrine and then force the Bible to support that doctrine by ignoring any and all Scripture that calls it into question and actually disproves it. This is the same tactic used by Catholicism, the Orthodox faiths, and all cults who teach false doctrine including the Word of Faith movement, which has deceived millions of Christians.

Unlike you and those who advance OSAS as sound doctrines those who deny the validity of OSAS accept God's word as inerrant and absolute truth. And God's word is clear that men have and will depart from faith resulting in an eternity is the lake of fire.

You have put all your eggs into a basket labeled "salvation", which is actually held together by another element called "faith". No person can obtain or maintain salvation without "faith".

[(Omega)]

Take chill pill bro! Your calling me a bold faced liar, not only do the friends that accompany me know for a FACT that no screaming is involved, you then continually and deliberately make derogatory remarks and disparage my character by calling my bold and large fonts infantile when shouting is not involved. Before you justify your hypocrisy, wanna take a look at the forum rules about slandering other posters, shame on you Aineo. I knew you were going to use my link against me, which is exactly why I said the "old omega". I can certainly admit that the old omega had some serious issues in th past which needed correction, but to resort to fault-finding and sticking your nose in other peoples P/M's. I have refuted your feeble arguments time and again and your only "escape" is to accuse me over and over again. Aineo, cast the mote out of your eye, then you will see clearly to cast the mote out of your brothers. Unlike you I admit that the "old omega" had issues, and if I indeed slandered any moderators in the past then I ask for their forgiveness which I know they will grant. I'm not PERFECT like you are, however in your self-righteous holier than thou attitude, you will never admit to any wrong on this board but ban any member that strikes your nerve. I pity you Aineo, your so-called impeccable and inerrant and capricious behavior is not only shameful, but also reeks of arrogance and pride. I have already explained how non-believers are branches of the vine, how does the tare and the wheat grow together, if you would actually take your time to study passages parallel, you will see that both the tare and the unproductive vine are strikingly similar and neither come to fruition and are BOTH cast into the fire to be burned. How do I know that I am saved? Because I confessed with my mouth and believed in "my heart", how do you know that either Mel White or Billy Graham actually believed in their hearts? I'm not questioning their salvation, I'm simply asking how do you know? You can label the doctrine of eternal security a false doctrine and what not, makes no difference to me, because I have clearly you refuted numerous times on this thread alone. I'm going to leave this thread since you refuse to get past your accusations, slander and fault-finding. Regardless of all this mudslinging, I am willing to bet that the majority of the members on this board knows that you LOST this debate.