Dear Fundie,
Thank you for your most enlightening post. Allow me to ask you a few questions about your use of the scriptures to yet further increase my understanding.
Firstly, allow me to iterate the first scripture you cited:
Matthew 5
27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit fornication:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed fornication with her already in his heart.
Firstly, in order to approach this correctly, I think it is necessary to define the word lust:
lust
1 obsolete a : PLEASURE, DELIGHT b : personal inclination : WISH
2 : usually intense or unbridled sexual desire : LASCIVIOUSNESS
3 a : an intense longing : CRAVING b : ENTHUSIASM, EAGERNESS
I believe that the definition referred to by Jesus is the second one (but tell me if you do not agree with me). I imagine that you would agree that seeing a woman on the street and admiring her beauty is not tantamount to lust. Lust is only if you see the woman exclusively as a sexual object, immediately undress her in your mind and perhaps even go as far as going up to her and trying to seduce her.
My love for little girls does not fall into this category. Yes, I do very much appreciate the beauty of girls from an aesthetic perspective, but my attraction goes much deeper than physical attraction. I definitely would not categorize my feelings towards them as being lustful. I do understand that there are people who might experience lustful feelings, but I know many pedophiles who are the same as I am.
Now let us take the verses you have provided in the greater context. The overall them of Matthew 5 is that one needs to be more mindful of the
spirit of the law rather than the
letter of the law. Jesus, who was careful to state that he had not come to destroy the law, but to fulfil it, is stressing that slavish adherence to a rigid legal code is not true obedience unless your thoughts are correct as well.
If you look at the overall message of Jesus' entire ministry, you see that he stresses compassion and love over anything else. This is borne out in the case of the adulteress who was about to be stoned when Jesus said 'he without sin among you, cast the first stone' (John 8:7). He then told the woman to go away and sin no more.
Jesus in his ministry gave only a single commandment: 'This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.' (John 15:12) Indeed, many find this single commandment more difficult to obey than all of the ancient Ten Commandments put together.
My love for little girls does not in any way violate this commandment. Many churches teach that the love God has for us is
agape love, rather than
phileo or
eros. Agape is a complete and unconditional love, not tainted by duty or heredity as is oft the cases with phileo, or simple physical desire, as is the case with eros. My love for little girls is also complete, and is very much deeper than physical attraction.
Let us now continue to the second scripture you cite:
At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
In essence, I am not at odds with this passage at all. Many pedophiles, myself included, enjoy the company of children because they can see the world as it is, not as we are conditioned to see it. We leave our excess baggage at the door and enter into their world, to appreciate things as nature intended them to be. Isn't it fantastic how a child marvels at things we fail to notice? Is this not what Jesus was referring to? Did he not want us to unload our conditioning before approaching him? What better way to do this than to do so in the company of a child?
I do not see anything in my
ethos of child love that would insult the child or cause the child to stumble. Indeed, I strive to affirm the child, to love and nurture the child, and to help the child grow in self-confidence and knowledge.
Of course, I agree that those who
do harm children ought to be punished. Not only those who physically hurt children or rape them, but those who harm them emotionally or intellectually as well. People who neglect their children, demean them, cut them down or manipulate them (parents, beware!), and those who withold education or educate them improperly or inadequately, need to be punished just as severely as the one who kidnaps or kills a child. For emotional and intellectual maldevelopment is a stumbling block which can have ill effects upon a child for life.
Next you made an unsubstantiated statement:
HELL IS REAL!!!!
OK, I understand that you believe that sincerely. Now provide me with some proof that it is does indeed exist.
And now for your last scripture:
2 Timothy 3:16 all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [emphasis mine]
OK. Let us examine for a moment some of the 'doctrine' and 'instruction in righteousness' that we can glean from the Bible if we take a strictly fundamentalist approach:
GAINING POLITICAL POWER BY MEANS OF EXTORTION AND DECEITAnd Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he [was] faint:
Gen 25:30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red [pottage]; for I [am] faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
Gen 25:31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
Gen 25:32 And Esau said, Behold, I [am] at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
Gen 25:33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
Gen 25:34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised [his] birthright.
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And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck:
Gen 27:17 And she gave the savoury meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.
Gen 27:18 And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I; who [art] thou, my son?
Gen 27:19 And Jacob said unto his father, I [am] Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.
Gen 27:20 And Isaac said unto his son, How [is it] that thou hast found [it] so quickly, my son? And he said, Because the LORD thy God brought [it] to me.
Gen 27:21 And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou [be] my very son Esau or not.
Gen 27:22 And Jacob went near unto Isaac his father; and he felt him, and said, The voice [is] Jacob's voice, but the hands [are] the hands of Esau.
Gen 27:23 And he discerned him not, because his hands were hairy, as his brother Esau's hands: so he blessed him.
Gen 27:24 And he said, [Art] thou my very son Esau? And he said, I [am].
Gen 27:25 And he said, Bring [it] near to me, and I will eat of my son's venison, that my soul may bless thee. And he brought [it] near to him, and he did eat: and he brought him wine, and he drank.
Gen 27:26 And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.
Gen 27:27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son [is] as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed:
Gen 27:28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:
Gen 27:29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed [be] every one that curseth thee, and blessed [be] he that blesseth thee.
Gen 27:30 And it came to pass, as soon as Isaac had made an end of blessing Jacob, and Jacob was yet scarce gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting.
Need I remind you that this scoundrel was the man God chose to father the Israelite nation? Compared to this, Bill Clinton's scandals are mere child's play...
CHILD PROSTITUTIONAnd they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Gen 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
Gen 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as [is] good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Remember that Lot was the only man righteous enough to be saved by God from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Here is another example of the same sort of behavior:
So he brought him into his house, and gave provender unto the asses: and they washed their feet, and did eat and drink.
Jdg 19:22 [Now] as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, [and] beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
Jdg 19:23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, [nay], I pray you, do not [so] wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
Jdg 19:24 Behold, [here is] my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
Jdg 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
Jdg 19:26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord [was], till it was light.
Jdg 19:27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down [at] the door of the house, and her hands [were] upon the threshold.
Are we to infer from this that child rape is less abominable than homosexuality?
INCEST, INTOXICATING SOMEONE FOR THE PURPOSE OF LOWERING THEIR INHIBITION, RAPE
Gen 19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
Gen 19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father [is] old, and [there is] not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
Gen 19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Gen 19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Gen 19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, [and] lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Gen 19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Gen 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
So we should understand from this that the end justifies the means?
GENOCIDE AND ETHNIC CLEANSING
1Sa 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember [that] which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid [wait] for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. [emphasis mine]
If the Hague War Crimes Tribunal were to judge people on the basis of Biblical precedent, they would have to free Slobodan Milosevic! After all, he was simply providing retribution to the Croats, who put Serbs into concentration camps in World War II. Indeed, he was simply making up for 600 years of atrocities against the Serbs (ie, ever since the Battle of Kosovo Field in 1389) at the hands of the Turks, Austrians and others.
SLAVERY Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things [your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
I would also point out that Saint Paul counseled the escaped slave Onesimus to return to his master.
These have been just a few examples of the danger of taking the Bible too literally as a tool for dictating moral behavior. If you are truly a fundamentalist, you cannot pick and choose what passages you like and which you do not like, can you? What is the determiner of what remains valid today and what is invalid?
With kind regards,
Amator Puellularum
besides bible believer, this is a good debate. Im enjoying watching the GL over there come up with a crapload of proof for our cause and then seeing u guys with ur thumbs up your errr.... rears. NE way, carry on.
so record my IP, send it to whoever, its all good. Im not hiding NE thing 
However, you've made it clear that you'd like to have a sexual relationship with a child, which leads me to believe that you would seize that opportunity in a heartbeat.
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