The Qur'an and Modern Science - WOW, what an EYE-OPENER!!!!!

[hassan]

The Holy Scriptures, the Qur'an, and Science: CONFLICT OR
CONCILIATION? (THIS FOLLOWING ONE IS INCREDIBLE and WILL BLOW YOUR MIND)

http://read141.tripod.com/

[truth man]

Hi all ,

it's amazing ,really i can't be astonished more than that, yea ,KORAN (islam)and modern science is identical at this weblink below:


http://www.islamicity.com/Science/iqs/

[galaxy]

The Holy Scriptures, the Qur'an, and Science: CONFLICT OR
CONCILIATION? (THIS FOLLOWING ONE IS INCREDIBLE and WILL BLOW YOUR MIND)

http://read141.tripod.com/

From net:

Nothing new in Islam

The Pyramid also at center of earth



Facts, not fiction, about the pyramid:

- Center of Land Mass: The Great Pyramid is located at the center of the land mass of the earth. The east/west parallel that crosses the most land and the north/south meridian that crosses the most land intersect in two places on the earth, one in the ocean and the other at the Great Pyramid.


- Latitude: The pyramid is located at 29 degrees, 58 minutes, 51.06 seconds north latitude, and 31 degrees, 9 minutes, and 0.0 seconds east longitude.

- Aligned True North: The Great Pyramid is the most accurately aligned structure in existence and faces true north with only 3/60th of a degree of error. The position of the North Pole moves over time and the pyramid was probably exactly aligned at one time.

- Tropical Year or Calendar Year: The length of a base side is 9131 pyramid inches measured at the mean socket level, or 365.24 pyramid cubits, which is the number of days in a year. {9131/25 = 365.24, accurate to 5 digits}

- Mean Distance to Sun: The height of the pyramid times 10**9 represents the mean radius of the earth's orbit around the sun, or Astronomical Unit. { 5813.235565376 pyramid inches x 10**9 = 91,848,816.9 miles}

- Mean Distance to Moon: The length of the Jubilee passage times 7 times 10**7 is the mean distance to the moon. {215.973053 PI * 7 * 10**7 = 1.5118e10 PI = 238,865 miles }

- Sun's Radius: Twice the perimeter of the bottom of the granite coffer times 10**8 is the sun's mean radius. { 270.45378502 PI* 10**8 = 427,316 miles}

- Earth's Polar Radius: The sacred cubit times 10**7 = polar radius of the earth (distance from North Pole to earth's center) {25 PI * 10**7 * (1.001081 in / 1 PI) * (1 ft / 12 in) * (1 mi/ 5280 ft) = 3950 miles }

- Radius of the Earth: The curvature designed into the faces of the pyramid exactly matches the radius of the earth.

- Earth's Volume: The product of the pyramid's volume and density times10**15 equals the ratio of volume to density of the earth. {10,339,823.3 cubic cubits * 0.4078994 * 10**15 = 4.21760772 x 10**21 cubic cubits = 259.93 x 10**9 cubic miles}

- Earth's Mass: Mass of the pyramid = volume * density = 10,339,823.3 cubic cubits * 0.4078994 earth density = 4,217,497. The mass converted to pyramid tons = 4217607.72 * 1.25 = 5,272,010 pyramid tons. Since the mean density of the earth was defined as 1.0, then the mass of the earth is 10**15 times the mass in pyramid tons = 5.272 x 10*21 pyramid tons = 5.99 x 10**24 kg

- Gaussian Constant of Gravitation (k): The reciprocal of the distance between the Coffer and the north or south wall of the King's Chamber, minus one ten-billionth the bottom perimeter of the Coffer. {(1/58.13235 PI) - ((89.6578860+38.67063162 PI)*2 / 10**10) = 0.017202100 radians = 3 degrees, 5 minutes, 46.96 seconds of arc}

- more can be found at:
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/spinxl.html

[galaxy]

The Holy Scriptures, the Qur'an, and Science: CONFLICT OR
CONCILIATION? (THIS FOLLOWING ONE IS INCREDIBLE and WILL BLOW YOUR MIND)

http://read141.tripod.com/

From net:

Moon splitting: the evidence:

It is claimed by Islamists that the Lunar Rilles are due to splitting of the moon, and that the moon was split and then united and the evidence are these Rilles.

Regarding Lunar Rilles see:
http://www.volcanolive.com/moon3.html

And from:
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/pla ... rview.html
The following is quoted:
Sinuous rilles are probably the most recognizable of small volcanic features on the Moon. Many partially resemble river valleys on the Earth. However, the lunar rilles usually flow away from small pit structures. Also, the lunar samples indicate that the Moon has always been bone dry. Thus, the sinuous rilles probably mark lava channels or collapsed lava tubes that formed during mare volcanism. Still, in some cases, the lunar flows may have melted their way down into older rocks, much like rivers cut into their flood plains on Earth. Similar lava channels and tubes are found in Hawaii, but these are all much, much smaller than those found on the Moon.

From: http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/pla ... hr_v2.html


Schroter's Valley 2:
This is a detailed photo showing part of Schroter's Valley (see last image). It clearly shows a complex, highly contorted rille inside the Valley. Like many rivers on the Earth, this rille has many tight loops along its course. These loops are meanders, and they suggest a long-lived flow on a fairly flat surface. They also require active erosion of the valley floor. This channel may have partially melted its way into older lava flows. (Part of Apollo 15 image P-341.

The Lunar Rilles are due to the flow of lava. The volcanic activities over the moon stopped 3.2 billion years ago (and not 1400 years ago!).
These "lines" on the moon are more than 3.3 billion years old!

Do you smell any evidence?

[Kai Hagbard]

Excellent job galaxy.

Hassan if you look at my thread on Koranic science:

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=7580

You will see that the Koran's view on the Big Bang was a common view of its time, believed in by various philosophers up to Muhammad's time.

In my thread I have only summarized a few pages on the topic.

I am currently working on a dissertation on Koranic science, and I am up to 60 pages. This major work has completely debunked the idea that the Koran is a miracle in terms of its science.

It reveals the truth about Dukhan, which was a famous idea among the ancient scientists prior to Muhammad; it reveals where all the terminology of the Koran in terms of science derives, also from the Greeks and the Romans; it other words Koranic science is nothing but pure plagiarism.

Most of the claims by Harun Yahya, Osama abdallah and Bucaille, in terms of cosmology have been debunked in the essay, and there is more to come.

God-willing in a few weeks I will beginn posting the entire work down here.

[galaxy]

I am currently working on a dissertation on Koranic science, and I am up to 60 pages. This major work has completely debunked the idea that the Koran is a miracle in terms of its science.

God-willing in a few weeks I will beginn posting the entire work down here.

Look forward for this work, really needed.

History of Embryology, in chronological order (from net):


Garbha Upinandas 1416 BC:
the Hindus describing ancient ideas concerning the embryo

"From the conjugation of blood and semen the embryo comes into existence. During the period favorable to conception, after the sexual intercourse, (it) becomes a Kalada (one-day-old embryo). After remaining seven nights it becomes a vesicle. After a fortnight it becomes a sperical mass. After a month it becomes a firm mass"

Bible: Book of Job ca. 1000 BC:

"Your hands formed me and made me - will you now absorb me? Remember that you formed me as if with clay - will you return me to dust? You poured me out like milk, and pulled me together like cheese. You clothed me with skin and flesh, and [inside me] did you interweave bones and sinews." -- Job 10:8-11

Bible: In Psalms 139: 13-16 (c. 500 BC)[b]
139:13 For you formed my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb.
139:14 I will give thanks to you, For I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful. My soul knows that very well.
139:15 My frame wasn't hidden from you, When I was made in secret, Woven together in the depths of the earth.
139:16 Your eyes saw my body. In your book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there were none of them


[b]Hippocrates 460-370 BC:

1st stage: "Sperm is a product which comes from the whole body of each parent, weak sperm coming from the weak parts, and strong sperm from the strong parts." Section 8, p 321
2nd stage: "The seed (embryo), then, is contained in a membrane ... Moreover, it grows because of its mother's blood, which descends to the womb. For once a woman conceives, she ceases to menstruate..." Section 14, p. 326
3rd stage: "At this stage, with the descent and coagulation of the mother's blood, flesh begins to be formed, with the umbilicus." Section 14, p. 326
4th stage: "As the flesh grows it is formed into distinct members by breath ... The bones grow hard ... moreover they send out branches like a tree ..." Section 17, p. 328

Aristotle 384-322 BC:

"When the material secreted by the female in the uterus has been fixed by the semen of the male [...] the more solid part comes together, the liquid is separated off from it, and as the earthy parts solidify membranes form all around it [...] Some of these are called membranes and others choria[.]" -- Aristotle, De Generatione Animalium, Book II, 739b20-739b30, as per Jonathan Barnes (ed.), The Complete Works of Aristotle, (Princeton, 1985), Vol 1, p. 1148.

"So nature has first designed the two blood vessels from the heart, and from these smaller vessels branch off to the uterus, forming what is called the umbilicus [...] Round these is a skin-like integument, because the weakness of the vessels needs protection and shelter. The vessels join to the uterus like the roots of plants, and through them the embryo receives its nourishment" -- Aristotle, De Generatione Animalium, Book II, 740a28-740a35, as per Barnes, opere citato, p. 1149

Diocles of Carystus 240-180 BC:

"on the ninth day a few points of blood, on the eighteenth beating of the heart, on the twenty-seventh traces of the spinal cord and head"

Galen 129-210 AD:

"let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time.
The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails (Arabic nutfah). At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood (Arabic alaqa), and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size,
this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus.
The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts (Arabic mudghah). You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches.
The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed " -- Corpus Medicorum Graecorum: Galeni de Semine (Galen: On Semen) (Greek text with English trans. Phillip de Lacy, Akademic Verlag, 1992) section I:9:1-10 pp. 92-95, 101

"... The time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and to bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones, and at the same time ... it made at the ends of the bones ligaments that bind them to each other, and along their entire length it placed around them on all sides thin membranes, called periosteal, on which it caused flesh to grow " -- Corpus Medicorum Graecorum: Galeni de Semine (Galen: On Semen) (Greek text with English trans. Phillip de Lacy, Akademic Verlag, 1992) section I:9:1-10 pp. 92-95, 101

Talmud: Samuel ha-Yehudi 2nd century AD:

The embryo was called peri habbetten (fruit of the body) and develops as

1. golem (formless, rolled-up thing);
2. shefir meruqqam (embroidered foetus - shefir means amniotic sac);
3. 'ubbar (something carried); v'alad (child); v'alad shel qayama (noble or viable child) and
4. ben she-kallu chadashav (child whose months have been completed).

Koran: Muhammed 571-632 AD:

Qu”an 023:13-14:

"And we created man from a portion of clay. Then we made him a drop in a firm place. Then we formed the drop into a clot, then we formed the clot into a morsel, then we formed the morsel into bones, then we clothed the bones with flesh. Then we brought it forth as another creation. Blessed is Allaah, the best of creators." [23:13-14]

Pickthall 23:12-14: Verily We created man from a product of wet earth; Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators

Qur’an, 022.005:

YUSUFALI: “O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes…”
PICKTHAL: “O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clear for you. And We cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward We bring you forth as infants…”
SHAKIR: “O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies…”

These verses refers to, translations differ:

1. Drop: (Believed to be sperm)
2. Clot: (leach, leach-like, clinging thing)
3. Lump: (chewed lump)
4. Bones first then covered with muscles

Comments:
1. The stage referred to as blood clot in Koran: A blood clot does not have any embryonic tissue whatsoever, only red blood cells, fibrin and white blood cells.
Regarding Blood Clot: From:
http://yahooligans.yahoo.com/reference/ ... 32300.html

blood clot
NOUN: A semisolid gelatinous mass of coagulated blood that consists of red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets entrapped in a fibrin network.

Also From: http://www.bartleby.com/cgi-bin/texis/w ... mit=Search
1) blood clot. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
...A semisolid gelatinous mass of coagulated blood that consists of red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets entrapped in a fibrin network

2. Leech stage referred to in Koran: A leech is dark because it has blood in its gullet. At no stage does the embryo have blood in its gullet, and never is it dark black like a leech. So even if we allow for the most recently introduced new translation adding the Leech into the argument: the Leech is a bag of blood, the faetus is not
3. Muscles are definitely formed before bones.


In conclusion:

There is not a single statement contained in the Qur'an relating to modern embryology that was not well known through direct observation by the ancient Greek and Indian physicians many centuries before the Qur'an was written. Moreover, much of what the Qur'an actually does say about embryology is scientifically inaccurate...


Embryos:

23 days embryo:





25 days embryo:


6 weeks embryo:
This diagram shows that the week 6 embryo (Carnegie Stage 16) already has musculature when the cartilage is forming.



Leeches:

[img]http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/bloodysuckers/images/top_pic2d.jpg
[/img]

[galaxy]

Alexander The Great in the Qur'an:

Historical Background

Alexander the Great was an immensely popular figure in the classical and post-classical cultures of the Mediterranean and Near East. Almost immediately after his death a body of legend began to accumulate about his exploits and life which, over the centuries, became increasingly fantastic as well as allegorical. Collectively this tradition is called the Alexander Romance and features such vivid episodes as Alexander ascending through the air to Paradise or journeying to the bottom of the sea in a glass bubble.

As the Alexander Romance persisted in popularity over the centuries, it was assumed by various neighboring cultures. Of particular significance was its incorporation into Jewish and later Christian legendary traditions. In the Jewish tradition Alexander is often a figure of satire, representing the vain or covetous ruler who is ignorant of larger spiritual truths. Yet their belief in a just, all-powerful God forced Jewish interpreters of the Alexander tradition to come to terms with Alexander's undeniable temporal success. Why would a just, all-powerful God show such favor to an unrighteous ruler? This theological need, plus acculturation to Hellenism, led to a more positive Jewish interpretation of the Alexander legacy. In its most neutral form this was typified by having Alexander show deference to either the Jewish people or the symbols of their faith. In having the great conqueror thus acknowledge the essential truth of the Jews' religious, intellectual, or ethical traditions, the prestige of Alexander was harnessed to the cause of Jewish ethnocentrism. Eventually Jewish writers would almost completely coop Alexander, depicting him as a righteous gentile or even a believing monotheist. The Christianized peoples of the Near East, inheritors of both the Hellenic as well as Judaic strands of the Alexander Romance, further theologized Alexander until in some stories he was depicted as almost a saint.
It was in this context of a well-established Judeo-Christian Alexander tradition that Islam also adopted the Alexander Romance. In the Qur'an Alexander (called "The Two-Horned Lord" in reference to his frequent depiction[1] with ram's horns) is portrayed as a pious servant of God. With the Muslim-Arab conquest of Iran, the Alexander Romance found its way to an honored place in Persian literature- an ironic outcome considering pre-Islamic Persia's hostility to the national enemy who not only destroyed the glorious Achaemenid Empire, but was also directly responsible for centuries of Persian domination by Hellenic and quasi-Hellenic foreign overlords.

Theological Controversy:

Though some Muslim scholars have traditionally identified Zul-qarnain with Alexander the Great (others preferring to identify him with the mysterious Tubba' of Yemen or Narmer), modern historical and scriptural scholarship has lately made this position untenable. Most obviously the factual details of the Alexander Romance as included in the Qu'ran (Alexander's fantastic deeds as well as his implied monotheism) have no basis in historical fact- a difficulty for a text considered by almost all Muslims to be infallible.
More fundamentally, the inclusion of pseudo-religious folklore in the Qu'ran challenges core doctrines of Islamic theology. Islam's attitude to Judaism and Christianity is basically negationist. Though kinship between these two religions and Islam is acknowledged, Islamic theology holds that over time Jews and Christians deviated from the original, divinely-inspired scriptures they received and introduced enough heretical "innovations" that a final, corrective prophetic mission (that of Muhammad) became necessary. The inclusion of a text with no scriptural authority, and which in the main derives from a pagan/polytheistic legendary tradition, seriously undermines this claim. As such, some modern Muslim scholars have recently argued that Zul-qarnain is not in fact Alexander, but instead some other ancient king, such as Cyrus the Great.

Qur'anic Text:

From the Qur'an (Chapter 18:83-98= 16 verses, 19 verses for Alexander’s story):

[83] They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story." [84] Verily We established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends. [85] One (such) way he followed, [86] Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: near it he found a people: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority), either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." [87] He said: "Whoever doth wrong, him shall we punish; then shall he be sent back to his Lord; and He will punish him with a punishment unheard-of (before). [88] "But whoever believes, and works righteousness, he shall have a goodly reward, and easy will be his task as we order it by our command." [89] Then followed he (another) way. [90] Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun. [91] (He left them) as they were: We completely understood what was before him. [92] Then followed he (another) way, [93] Until, when he reached (a tract) between two mountains, he found, beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word. [94] They said: "O Zul-qarnain! the Gog and Magog (people) do great mischief on earth: shall we then render thee tribute in order that thou mightest erect a barrier between us and them? [95] He said: "(The power) in which my Lord has established me is better (than tribute): help me therefore with strength (and labour): I will erect a strong barrier between you and them: [96] "Bring me blocks of iron." At length, when he had filled up the space between the two steep mountain sides, he said, "Blow (with your bellows)" then, when he had made it (red) as fire, he said: "Bring me, that I may pour over it, molten lead." [97] Thus were they made powerless to scale it or to dig through it. [98] He said: "This is a mercy from my Lord: but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true."
It is of note that this Sura has the story of the believers in the cave (hence the name of the Sura), of Moses just preceding that of Alexander.

Why was Alexander considered to be a man of faith, hence a prophet: this can be explained by Jewish tradition:

From: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 0&letter=A
The celebrated conqueror of the East, 356-323 B.C. By introducing Hellenic culture into Syria and Egypt, he had probably more influence on the development of Judaism than any one individual not a Jew by race. Yet, curiously enough, there are no personal details which connect him with Jewish history, save that after the siege of Tyre, 332 B.C., he marched through Palestine unopposed, except in the case of Gaza, which was razed to the ground. He is mentioned by name only in the Apocryphal I Macc. (i. 1-8, vi. 2). It is supposed that the Book of Daniel alludes to Alexander when it refers to a mighty king that "shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion," whose kingdom shall be destroyed after his death (Dan. xi. 3). The vision of the "fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly," devouring and breaking all in pieces (ibid. vii. 7), may also be an allusion to Alexander. I. Br.
The only historical event connecting Alexander the Great with the Jews is his visit to Jerusalem, which is recorded by Josephus in a somewhat fantastic manner. According to "Ant." xi. 8, §§ 4-6, Alexander went to Jerusalem after having taken Gaza. Jaddua, the high priest, had a warning from God received in a dream, in which he saw himself vested in a purple robe, with his miter—that had the golden plate on which the name of God was engraved—on his head. Accordingly he went to meet Alexander at Sapha ("View" [of the Temple]). Followed by the priests, all clothed in fine linen, and by a multitude of citizens, Jaddua awaited the coming of the king. When Alexander saw the high priest, he reverenced God (Lev. R. xiii., end), and saluted Jaddua; while the Jews with one voice greeted Alexander. When Parmenio, the general, gave expression to the army's surprise at Alexander's extraordinary act—that one who ought to be adored by all as king should adore the high priest of the Jews—Alexander replied: "I did not adore him, but the God who hath honored him with this high-priesthood; for I saw this very person in a dream, in this very habit, when I was at Dios in Macedonia, who, when I was considering with myself how I might obtain dominion of Asia, exhorted me to make no delay, but boldly to pass over the sea, promising that he would conduct my army, and would give me the dominion over the Persians." Alexander then gave the high priest his right hand, and went into the Temple and "offered sacrifice to God according to the high priest's direction," treating the whole priesthood magnificently. "And when the Book of Daniel was shown him [see Dan. vii. 6, viii. 5-8, 20-22, xi. 3-4], wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks [ ] should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that he was the person intended, and rejoiced thereat. The following day Alexander asked the people what favors he should grant them; and, at the high priest's request, he accorded them the right to livein full enjoyment of the laws of their forefathers. He, furthermore, exempted them from the payment of tribute in the seventh year of release. To the Jews of Babylonia and Media also he granted like privileges; and to the Jews who were willing to enlist in his army he promised the right to live in accordance with their ancestral laws. Afterward the Samaritans, having learned of the favors granted the Jews by Alexander, asked for similar privileges; but Alexander declined to accede to their request. The historical character of this account is, however, doubted by many scholars (see Pauly-Wissowa, "Realencyklopädie," i. col. 1422). Although, according to Josephus ("Contra Ap." ii. 4, quoting Hecatæus), Alexander permitted the Jews to hold the country of Samaria free from tribute as a reward for their fidelity to him, it was he who Hellenized its capital (Schürer, "Gesch." ii. 108). The Sibylline Books (iii. 383) speak of Alexander—who claimed to be the son of Zeus Amon—as "of the progeny of the Kronides, though spurious." K.

—In Jewish Legend:

All the accounts which the Talmud and Midrash give concerning Alexander MuḲdon (the Macedonian) are of a legendary character. Some of them pretend to be historical, as the following Baraita in Yoma, 69a (identical with Megillat Ta'anit, iii.):
"When the Samaritans had obtained permission from Alexander to destroy the Temple in Jerusalem, the high priest Simon the Just, arrayed in his pontifical garments and followed by a number of distinguished Jews, went out to meet the conqueror, and joined him at Antipatris, on the northern frontier. At sight of Simon, Alexander fell prostrate at his feet, and explained to his astonished companions that the image of the Jewish high priest was always with him in battle, fighting for him and leading him to victory. Simon took the opportunity to justify the attitude of his countrymen, declaring that, far from being rebels, they offered prayers in the Temple for the welfare of the king and his dominions. So impressed was Alexander that he delivered up all the Samaritans in his train into the hands of the Jews, who tied them to the tails of horses and dragged them to the mountain of Gerizim; then the Jews plowed the mountain [demolished the Samaritan temple]."
Samaritan Intrigue.

It is evident that this account wrongly assigns to the times of Alexander an event which occurred two centuries later, in the reign of John Hyrcanus I. It must therefore have been written at a late period, when the memory of historical incidents had become confused. The legend presents a striking resemblance to the narrative of Josephus ("Ant." xi. 8, § 1 et seq.). The point of the fable is the honor conferred by Alexander upon the high priest and the cause thereof; and, furthermore, the contrast between his good-will to the Jews and his hostility to the Samaritans. Both the narrative in the Talmud and that of Josephus are derived from an "Apology" of the Jews which aimed at discrediting the members of the Samaritan sect. It is even possible that this apology, as Büchler thinks ("Rev. Ét. Juives," lxxxvi. 1), had its origin in Alexandria, where the attitude of Alexander was of decisive importance in the eyes of the Greek public:

"In Gen. R. (lxi., end) the Samaritans are accused of playing a rôle equally despicable with that imputed to them in the above legend. When Alexander advanced toward Jerusalem, they informed him that the Jews would forbid his entrance to the Holy of Holies. A Jew, Gebi'ah ben Kosem [identical with Gebia ben Pesisa, a legendary character], asked the king, on the hill of the Temple, to remove his shoes and to put on the slippers ornamented with precious stones that he had brought for him, lest he should slip on the pavement of the Temple. Alexander complied with the request, and thus avoided a violation of the rabbinic law. When they arrived at the Holy of Holies, Gebi'ah said to the king, 'We are not permitted to proceed farther' (neither we nor you). 'When I have left the Temple,' replied the king, 'I will straighten your hump' (Gebi'ah signifies humpback). 'If you do,' answered Gebi'ah, 'you are a great physician, and deserving of high remuneration.'"

This anecdote is one of those naive inventions of which many are found in Midrash Ekah Rabbati, and which aim at exhibiting the ingenuity of the Jews in repartee. Alexander is made to play merely the part of a stage-king.

The same Gebi'ah appears in a narrative of quite a different type. Alexander is here represented as the great conqueror to whom the nations appeal for arbitration of their differences:(Sanh. 91a, Gen. R. l.c.).

"The Arabs accuse the Jews of illegally withholding the heritage of their ancestor Ishmael; the Canaanites complain of having been wrongly deprived of their territory; and the Egyptians claim indemnity for the vessels that the Israelites had taken from them on leaving their country. Gebi'ah meets all these charges with great success: against the Egyptians he proves that it is they that are indebted to the Jews, whom they had exploited without paying them for their work, and Alexander was fully satisfied with the refutation"

(see image) Coin with Aramaic Inscription.

These pretended discussions, similar to those reported to have taken place between the Samaritans and the Jews before Ptolemy Philometor (Josephus, "Ant." xii. 1, § 10; xiii. 4, § 4), are the echo of the accusations against the Jews by pagan readers of the Bible at Alexandria. These imputations were taken up later by the Gnostics, who were the pupils of the Alexandrians, and especially by the Marcionites. Tertullian replied to Marcion, who had brought the same reproach against the Bible for the "larceny" committed by the Jews, by repeating the words of Gebi'ah; he even mentions the discussions between the Jews and the Egyptians ("nam et aiunt ita actum per legatos utrinque; Ægyptiorum quidem repetentium vasa; Judeorum vero reposcentium operas suas, et tandem vasis istis renuntiaverunt sibi Ægyptii"; "Adversus Marcionem," ii. 20).

What different commentators say about Zul-qarnain:

All the following commentators agreed that the two horned is Alexander the great:
El Baidawi, Al Zamakhshari, Jallaloddin, Yahya (Sale, page 294 first comment)
Example:Baidawi on Sura 18: 82/83 :reference to the Greek (rumi) Alexander.

Why the two horned:
1. King of East and West
2. 2. He roamed all over the two horns of the earth, namely East and West
3. 3. Two generations (qarnan) of men passed away during his life time
4. 4. He had two horn, that is two braids of hair
5. Because his crown had two horns (see images especially of coins of his time).
6. Or since one who is brave is called a “ram”, as he battered his enemies like a ram
Add to this that Alexander was considered son of Jupiter- Amon [depicted as ram, with two horns] as seen in Sale translation, comment 1 page 294.

What different Koran translations say about Zul-qarnain:

1. Abdel Haleem: Alexander the Great.
2. Majid Fakhry: Alexander the Great
3. N.J. Dawood: Alexander the great
4. Sale: Alexander the Great
5. J.M. Rodwell: Alexander the Great
6. Ahmed Ali: Many commentators identify Dhul-Qarnain with Alexander of Macedonia, page 259 comment 2.

Zul-qarnain is Alexander the Great:

The question is who fits the following criteria of Dhul-Qarnain as depicted in the Koran except Alexander the great:
1. Travelled widely, east and west
2. 2. conqured widely east and west
3. Has two horn, historically shown on coins of the time
4. Was benevolent
5. Was a believer, see the Jewish tradition below
6. Was before Mohammad
7. Especially endowed with powers from God

Alexander the Great a homosexual:

How do we know Alexander was gay?

2,300 years ago men in Greece had wives, mistresses, and lovers of either gender. Alexander's father, Philip of Macedon, had male lovers and also many wives, a problem when half-brothers would fight to the death over the throne. Alexander refused to marry and beget an heir when he left Macedon to conquer the world.

Alexander loved his boyhood friend, Hephaestion. Both brilliant boys, they were tutored by Aristotle, with whom Hephaestion kept up a lifelong correspondence. Alexander and Hephaestion felt like the two heroes Achilles and Patroclus, from The Iliad, which was Alexander's favorite book.

Hephaestion started off as a regular cavalry soldier - Alexander did not play favorites - and rose through the ranks on merit and carried out the most important military and administrative assignments. Later, Alexander also fell in love with a courtier from the conquered Persian court, scandalous not because the courtier was male, but because he was Persian -- most Greeks thought that other people were barbarians. Alexander married a princess from a faraway mountain kingdom of Asia, but it's unclear if he loved her because their only child was born much later. He also married the defeated Persian king's daughter, a purely political marriage, and Hephaestion married her sister, since he and Alexander wanted their children to be cousins.

After they conquered Asia, Hephaestion died suddenly of typhus. Alexander's grief was monumental. He asked the oracles if Hephaestion was a god (back then people could become gods by achievement) and was told that Hephaestion was indeed a hero, a lesser type of god. Now Alexander, who had no doubt about his own divinity, knew that he would meet his beloved again in the Blessed Realm, where gods and heroes live. He got his first wife pregnant and died himself without waiting for the child to be born, all within eight months of Hephaestion's death, just as Achilles had followed Patroclus in the Iliad. He was 32 years old.

This is from Robin Lane Fox: Alexander the Great:

Hephaestion was the man Alexander loved, and for the rest of their lives their relationship remained as intimate as it is now irrecoverable: Alexander was only defeated once, the Cynic philosophers said long after his death, and that was by Hephaestion's thighs. (p. 56)

At the age of thirty Alexander was still Hephaestion's lover although most young Greeks would have grown out of the fashion by then and an older man would have given up or turned to a younger attraction. Their affair was a strong one; Hephaestion grew to lead Alexander's cavalry most ably and to become Vizier before dying a divine hero, worthy of posthumous worship. (p. 57)

[Alexander's royal bodyguard] were the nobles whom Alexander loved and trusted, whether tough like Leonnatus, famed for his gymnastics, or shrewd like Ptolemy, a friend from childhood; Hephaestion still predominated, faithfully inclining to the Persian customs of his king and lover. (p. 430)

And from Mary Renault, in The Nature of Alexander :

With Hephaestion he remained in love, at a depth where the physical becomes almost irrelevant; and years later Bagoas [a Persian courtier] was still his recognized eromenos [Greek for "lover"]. (p. 185)

And from The Random House Encyclopedia, New Revised Edition, 1983:

A more immediate project was the marriage of Alexander and Hephaestion, his closest friend and lover, to two of the daughters of Darius [the recently conquered Persian emperor], while another 80 Macedonian officers married daughters of Persian nobles. (p. 1005)

Paul Cartledge is Professor of Greek History in the University of Cambridge, and Fellow of Clare College, Cambridge.

The following is from an article he wrote just before publication of his book, Alexander the Great: The Hunt for a New Past (2004).

Aristotle is said to have advised Alexander to treat all non Greeks as slavish 'barbarians', advice which Alexander--to his credit--conspicuously did not follow. Indeed, he married, polygamously, three 'barbarians'--the daughter of a Sogdian warlord and two Persian royal women--and encouraged his closest companions to take foreign wives too. No doubt, as with Philip's marriages, these were predominantly motivated by realpolitik. It is notable that, unlike his father, Alexander married no Macedonian nor Greek woman. Moreover his marriages were designed to further a policy of orientalisation, the playing down of an exclusive Hellenism and the promotion of Graeco-oriental political and cultural mix.

The question of Alexander's sexuality--his predominant sexual orientation--has enlivened, or bedevilled, much Alexander scholarship.

That he loved at least two men there can be little doubt. The first was the Macedonian noble Hephaestion, a friend from boyhood, whom he looked on--and may actually have referred to--as his alter ego. The Persian queen mother, it was said, once mistook the taller Hephaestion for Alexander, who graciously excused her blushes by murmuring that 'he too is Alexander'. Whether Alexander's relationship with the slightly older Hephaestion was ever of the sort that once dared not speak its name is not certain, but it is likely enough that it was. At any rate, Macedonian and Greek mores would have favoured an actively sexual component rather than inhibiting or censoring it. Like hunting, homosexuality was thought to foster masculine, especially martial, bravery.

The other non-female beloved of Alexander's was named Bagoas. He was not just a 'barbarian' (Persian) but also a eunuch. There was a long Middle Eastern tradition of employing eunuchs as court officials, especially where a harem system was in place, as at the Achaemenid royal court (witness the Biblical book of Esther). Bagoas was not the first Persian court eunuch, either, to act as a power-broker between rival individuals and factions. A homonymous predecessor had done his murderous worst through the arts of poison, paving the way for Darius III's immediate predecessor to assume the Persian throne. The methods of Alexander's Bagoas were no less effective, if less violent, and Alexander's personal commitment to him seems to have attained levels of sexual intimacy that his Greek and Macedonian courtiers found embarrassing.

IMAGES:
at war
2 horns
2 horns
Coin 2 horns
Coin 2 horns
Map
Map2

Ammon, Ram god identified with Zeus, hence Alexander the great with two horns.

[galaxy]

ZUL-QARNAIN AND THE SUN:

THE PLACE OF THE SETTING AND RISING OF THE SUN:

Since Muslims are divided as to whether Zul-Qarnain is Alexander or not, in this part we are going to investigate the claims of the Qur'an about Zul-Qarnain, assuming that Zul-Qarnain is not Alexander the Great, as this is not the subject of this posting.

The Qur'an states: (The different translations are quoted at the end)

Until when he reached the setting of the Sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water. Near it he found a People. We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (Thou hast authority,) either to punish them or to treat them with kindness." (Q. 18:86)

Does the above verse speak of the Sun setting or does it speak of the place where the Sun sets?
If the above verse speaks about seeing the Sun setting and no more, we have to ask, "But the Sun rises every day and on every nation.
Why was that day and that place singled out in the life of Zul-Qarnain to be described in the words 'Until when he reached the setting of the Sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water. Near it he found a People."?

The only sense we can make out of the Qur'anic verse is that after so many sunrises and so many sunsets Zul-Qarnain finally "reached the setting of the Sun" and he found that "it set in a spring of murky water" near which he found a People."

Then he followed a way until, when he reached the rising of the Sun, he found it rising upon a people for whom We had not appointed any veil to shade them from it. (The Qur'an 18:89,90; Arberry).

The above verse does not give us the impression that next morning he saw the Sun rising. No, "he followed a way until, when he reached the rising of the Sun ..." In other words after so many sunrises and sunsets "he reached the rising of the Sun" and found it rising upon a people for whom We had not appointed any veil to shade them from it."

If all that Zul-Qarnain experienced was a daily sunrise and a daily sunset, why was he singled out by the Qur'an as the person who reached both the place of the rising and setting of the Sun?
Zul-Qarnain is not the only person who saw the sun rise and set, we have all had this experience.
The only sense that could be made of these verses is that Zul-Qarnain alone had this unique experience of reaching the place of the sunrise and the sunset.

But from where did this concept come ?
It comes from the legends concerning Alexander the Great.

Here are some extracts from the Christian Legend Concerning Alexander:

He [Alexander] said to them: "This thought has arisen in my mind, and I am wondering what is the extent of the earth, and how high the heavens are ... and upon what the heavens are fixed ... Now this I desire to go and see upon what the heavens rest and what surrounds all creation." The nobles answered and said to the king, "... As to the thing ... which thy majesty desires to go and see, namely ... what surrounds the earth, the terrible seas which surround the world will not give thee a passage. ... Men are not able to come near this fetid sea, neither can ships sail thereon, and no bird is able to fly over it, it is caught and falls and is suffocated therein. Its waters are like pus; and if men swim therein, they die at once; and the leaves of the trees which are by its side are shrivelled up by the smell of these waters as though fire licked them."[1]

So the whole camp mounted, and Alexander and his troops went up between the fetid sea and the bright sea to the place where the Sun enters the window of heaven; for the Sun is the servant of the Lord, and neither by night nor by day does he cease from his travelling. The place of his rising is over the sea, and the people who dwell there, when he is about to rise, flee away and hide themselves in the sea, that they be not burnt by his rays; and he passes through the midst of heaven to the place where he enters the window of heaven; and wherever he passes there are terrible mountains, and those who dwell there have caves hollowed out in the rocks, and as soon as they see the Sun passing [over them], men and birds flee away from before him and hide in the caves. ... And when the Sun enters the window of heaven, he [it] straight away bows down and makes obeisance before God his Creator; and he travels and descends the whole night through the heavens, until at length he finds himself where he rises.[2]

Alexander wanted to see the "extent of the earth". In other words he wanted to survey it from east to west. And according to the legend he travelled until he "went up between the fetid sea and the bright sea to the place where the Sun enters the window of heaven".
Here Alexander the Great reached the setting of the Sun.

THE SUN WORSHIPS UNDER THE THRONE:

The Hadith picks up the thread of the Legend where the Qur'an stops. The Legend tells us: "When the Sun enters the window of heaven, he [it] straight away bows down and makes obeisance before God his Creator." And this what Bukhari's Hadith tells us:

Narrated Abu Dharr: "Once I was with the Prophet in the mosque at the time of sunset. The Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and prostrates underneath (Allah's) Throne; and that is Allah's Statement:--

'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (decreed). And that is the decree of All-Mighty, the All-Knowing....'" (36.38)[3]

Modern scholars might find profound meaning to the above Hadith but would they apply the same meaning to the Legend that is word for word with the Hadith, and is the source of the Hadith?

THE SPRING:

The Qur'an states that when Zul-Qarnain "reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and he found nearby a people." (The Qur'an 18:83-86; Arberry). There are two points that need to be observed here. The Qur'anic verse does not say, "When he saw the setting of the sun" but it says "when he reached the setting of the sun".

The word "reached" denotes a place, and not a view. The second point is that the Qur'an does not say he "saw it setting in a muddy spring" but that he "found it setting in a muddy spring". Furthermore, it says that he "found" nearby a People. If Alexander's experience according to the Qur'an was merely an experience of vision, there would have been no need to specify the place or the people near that place, for the sun always rises and sets on everybody and this sight is experienced by everyone.

The word "found" (wagada) and its derivatives are mentioned 107 times in the Qur'an. It is never used as seeing.

Indeed when the Qur'an describes the experience of seeing it uses the appropriate word which is "ra'a". And it uses it in relation to seeing the sun in Q. 6:78, "When he [Abraham] saw (ra'a) the sun rising, he said, "This is my Lord". But when it set he said, ..."

Had the Qur'an used the same word "ra'a" for Zul-Qarnain's experience we would have had no problem understanding the experience as a mere vision.

We need to look at two words in the following verse, "found" and "until":
Until (hatta) he reached the setting of the Sun, he found (wagadaha) it set in a spring of murky water. Near it he found a People. We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (Thou hast authority,) either to punish them or to treat them with kindness." (Q. 18:86)

The grammatical construction of the verses describing Zul-Qarnain's experience excludes the modern interpretation as an experience of vision and clearly stress that it was an act of final achievement and discovery. Grammarians defined the word found "wagada" as: "a verb yofeed fil-khabere yaqeenan", that is, it is a verb denoting certainty of an account. They also define until (hatta) as a word denoting the end of an aim "'inthaa' al-ghayah."

Thus the Qur'anic verse describing Zul-Qarnain's experience could only make sense if it meant that after many sunrises and many sunsets and hundreds of miles in travelling, he achieved his aim of reaching and, with certainty, locating the places where the sun rises and sets. Abraham saw the rising and the setting of the sun, and so did all those whom God gave the gift of sight. But one, Zul-Qarnain, according to the Qur'an travelled until he reached and found the place of the rising and setting of the sun.

That confirms that the Qur'an implys that the earth is flat and that one specific point near the extreme west could be permanantly closer to the sunset, and one specific point near the far east is permenantly closer to the sunrise, since on a spherical earth there cannot be any such point. Each of these two points are specified by a particuler people according to the Qur'an.

HOT OR MURKY ?

The Qur'an tells us where the sun set. "They will question thee concerning Dhool Karnain. Say: 'I will recite to you a mention of him.' We established him in the land, and We gave him a way to everything and he followed a way until, when he reached the setting of the Sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and he found nearby a people." (Q. 18:83-86; Arberry).

The word translated "muddy" in "muddy spring" is read "hameiah" or "hame'ah". Commentators agreed that he word "hameiah" means very hot or sizzling. Ibn Kathir for example said it is hot because of its nearness to the sun when it sets and its meeting with the rays of the sun without any barrier.
He then quotes a hadith in which once Mohammad, upon seeing the sun set, said: "In God's sizzling fire, if it was not prevented by the command of God it would have burned whatever was on the earth."

The above hadith confirms the legendary understanding that the sun sets somewhere on earth. As long as the sun in the sky there is no danger of burning the earth. It is when the sun sets in this sizzling spring that it needs God's command to prevent it from burning the rest of the earth.
This word "hame'ah" occurs three more times in the Qur'an in the verses 15:26, 28, 33. Commentators also said that it means black mud. Razi informs us that "hama'" is "the stinking black mud".[4]

Where did the concept of stinking waters where the sun sets come from?

From the Legend:

The nobles answered and said to the king, "... As to the thing ... which thy majesty desires to go and see, namely ... what surrounds the earth, the terrible seas which surround the world will not give thee a passage because there are eleven bright seas, on which the ships of men sail, and beyond these there is about ten miles of dry land, and beyond these ten miles of dry land is the fetid sea ... which surrounds all creation. Men are not able to come near this fetid sea, neither can ships sail thereon, and no bird is able to fly over it, it is caught and falls and is suffocated therein. Its waters are like pus; and if men swim therein, they die at once; and the leaves of the trees which are by its side are shrivelled up by the smell of these waters as though fire licked them."[5]

What surrounds the earth, according to the Legend, is the fetid sea. So whoever manages to reach the end of the earth will have to contend with this stinking sea. And this is where the sun sets also.

Throughout Zul-Qarnain's travels he watched the sun set in many places. But the Qur'an singles one place at the end of Zul-Qarnain's travels as the place of the setting of the sun: a spring of muddy waters.

The Qur'an states that the sun sets in a "muddy spring". We have seen that word muddy is actually "stinking" and this came from the Christian Legend but where did the concept of a spring come from?

According to Mar Jacob's legend:

When the question went forth from him [Alexander] to the chiefs, they said to him, "Master, the terrible seas which surround the world will not allow thee to go over and see the land [of Darkness]." The king marvelled at what he heard from his subjects, and he began to speak to his hosts like a wise man. The king said, "Have you been and seen the seas which according to what ye say, surround the whole earth?" They say to him, "Master, within these terrible seas is the fetid sea, which of truth is full of quacking." ... And they went and came and drew near to the border of the fetid sea, and they departed by reason of its stench, they fled away from its noise.[6]

Mar Jacob's legend tells us that the fetid sea is "within these terrible seas". So according to Mar Jacob's legend there is a collection of stinking water surrounded by the terrible seas.
This collection of stinking water is what the Qur'an called a spring.
But this collection of waters is also marked by its noise.
All seas can be noisy due to the sound caused by the waves, but his one is markedly noisy. Why? If the sun sets in this collection of waters then it is only logical that its waters will be sizzling to say the least. The noise of this sizzling is so high that people flee away from its noise. So there is a collection or spring of stinking sizzling water surrounded by the terrible seas. It is appropriate then for it to be called "'ayn hame'ah" a sizzling/stinking spring.

THE DESCRIPTION OF THE PEOPLE NEAR THE RISING PLACE OF THE SUN:

Ibn Kathir quotes the following in description of the people near the place of the sun rising in the course of commenting on the following:

Then he followed a way until, when he reached the rising of the Sun, he found it rising upon a people for whom We had not appointed any veil to shade them from it. (The Qur'an 18:89-90; Arberry).

I heard al-Hasan when asked about: "We had not appointed any veil to shade them from it," he said: "Their land can not sustain a building, so when the sun rises they dive into the water and when the sun sets they come out and graze like animals."

Qatadah said: "It is mentioned to us that their land sprout nothing. When the sun rises they enter the caves and when the sun sets they go about their daily living."

Where did this Quranic verse and the Hadith explaining it come from?

From the Christian Legend:

The place of his rising is over the sea, and the people who dwell there, when he is about to rise, flee away and hide themselves in the sea, that they be not burnt by his rays; and he passes through the midst of heaven to the place where he enters the window of heaven; and wherever he passes there are terrible mountains, and those who dwell there have caves hollowed out in the rocks, and as soon as they see the Sun passing [over them], men and birds flee away from before him and hide in the caves.[7]

Why do the people who live near by "when he [the sun] is about to rise, flee away and hide themselves in the sea"? Because: "We had not appointed any veil to shade them from it" as the Qur'an stated.
Once more we can see that both the Qur'an and the Hadith have borrowed from the same legend.

And Salmah bn Kohail said: They have no houses when the sun rises it rises on them. Every one has two ears; they used one to sleep on, and the other one they use as a garment.[8]

Razi mentions a traveller who went past China asking for those people mentioned in the above verse.
When he found them, he saw that they had such large ears that they used one to sleep on, and the other to cover themselves with. When the time of the sun's rising drew near, I heard a sound like the ringing of a bell, and fainted. When I woke up, I found the people rubbing me with ointment. And when the sun rose it looked like oil on the surface of the water. They made me enter a cave until the sun had risen high enough. The people who lived there began catching fish. After catching a fish, they would throw it high into the sun and it would be cooked.[9]
If the Qur'an and the Hadith have their source concerning this whole episode from a legend, scholars like Ibn Kathir and Razi are excused in relying on whatever they can find to support the Qur'an.
________________________________________
References:
1. "A Christian Legend Concerning Alexander", In The History of Alexander the Great Being the Syriac Version of the Pseudo-Callisthenes. Translated by E.A. W. Budge, 1889, p.145.
2. "A Christian Legend Concerning Alexander", In The History of Alexander the Great Being the Syriac Version of the Pseudo-Callisthenes. Translated by E.A. W. Budge, 1889, p.148.
3. Hadith by Bukhari, English Translation, Hadith number 6.326.
4. Razi, at-Tafsir al-Kabir, commenting on Q. 15:26.
5. "A Christian Legend Concerning Alexander", In The History of Alexander the Great Being the Syriac Version of the Pseudo-Callisthenes. Translated by E.A. W. Budge, 1889, p.145.
6. "A Discource Composed by Mar Jacob upon Alexander, the Believing King, and upon the Gate which he made against Gog and Magog", In The History of Alexander the Great Being the Syriac Version of the Pseudo-Callisthenes. Translated by E.A. W. Budge, 1889, pp.166-168.
7. "A Christian Legend Concerning Alexander", In The History of Alexander the Great Being the Syriac Version of the Pseudo-Callisthenes. Translated by E.A. W. Budge, 1889, p.148.
8. Ibn Kathir, commenting on Q. 18:90.
9. Razi, at-Tafsir al-Kabir, commenting on Q. 18:90.

Koran verse in different translations: which is the true translation?

The sun sets in a muddy pool of water 18: 86:

Yusuf Ali
Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

Shakir
Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

Sher Ali
Until when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting as if in a pool of murky water, and near it he found a people. WE said, `O Dhu'l Qarnain, you may punish them, or treat them with kindness.'

Khalifa
When he reached the far west, he found the sun setting in a vast ocean, and found people there. We said, "O Zul-Qarnain, you can rule as you wish; either punish, or be kind to them."

Arberry
until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and he found nearby a people. ¶ 85 We said, 'O Dhool Karnain, either thou shalt chastise them, or thou shalt take towards them a way of kindness.'

Palmer
until when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a black muddy spring, and he found thereat a people.' ¶ We said, 'O Dhu 'l Qarnain! thou mayest either torment these people, or treat them well.'

Rodwell
Until when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it to set in a miry fount; and hard by he found a people. We said, "O Dhoulkarnain! either chastise or treat them generously."

Sale
until he came to the place where the sun setteth; [and] he found it to set in a spring of black mud; and he found near the same a certain people. And we said, o Dhu'lkarnein, either punish [this people], or use gentleness towards them.

Also in Pickthall:
Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.

Thus all translations agree that: "he found it is setting in"

So the question is:
Does the sun sets in a muddy spring?
According to the Koran: YES.

Where does the sun set:

Is it a spring/pool of murky water; black sea; vast ocean; black/muddy spring, miry fount; spring of black mud:
How can the same word mean: spring, sea and ocean???
And they say Arabic is a rich language???

[galaxy]

Moses story in the Koran and Haman?

From: http://www.iranica.com/articlenavigation/index.html

HAMAN, the chief courtier of King Ahasuerus (Xerxes, Xæaya@ræa; q.v.), according to the story of the Book of Esther in the Hebrew Bible.
He is portrayed as the villain of the narrative:
He took a dislike to Mordecai, who was at the court of the king but did not pay his respects to Haman by bowing to him.
In revenge he arranged to have all the Jews in the kingdom killed, and to hang Mordecai.
His downfall came as a result of the intervention of Queen Esther, who had been raised by Mordecai, and who got King Ahasuerus to revoke Haman's designs.
The end of the story is that Haman and his ten sons were hanged at the king's command, and Mordecai was elevated to Haman's position.
The story of the Book of Esther has not been corroborated by historical sources, and the figure of Haman could well be fictitious. At the same time, as with several other details in the story, it seems that his name could fit in with the setting of the 5th century B.C.E.

Haman is said to be the son of Hammedatha the Agagite. The meaning of his name is not clear, and several explanations have been offered for it. One possibility is that the name is derived from that of his father, perhaps as a hypocorism (Scheftelowitz, I, pp. 43 f.; Bogolyubov, p. 212).
A derivation from the Elamite proper name humpan has also been proposed (Zadok, pp. 20 f.).
The patronym could be interpreted as a variant of Hauma-da@ta "created (or given) by (the god) Haoma." The epithet Agagite can be taken to be connected with the name of the king of the Amalekites, a semi-mythical people whose traces vanish from history after the ancient period of the wanderings of the Israelites in the desert and the early kingdom. This had become a symbolic name for the enemies of the Jewish people. Assuming that Haman, his patronym, and his epithet fit in with the period under consideration, however, it makes better sense to explain the epithet not by reference to the Amalekites but from Elamite a-ga-ga, ag-ga-ga (as done by Zadok, p. 21).

The names of the ten sons of Haman, enumerated in the Book of Esther (9:7-9), have been variously interpreted in terms of their possible Iranian forms.
The names as given in the Biblical text are Parshandatha, Dalphon, Aspatha, Poratha, Adalia, Aridatha, Parmashta, Arisai, Aridai, and Vaizatha.
The last name seems clearly to be *Vahya-za@ta- "born of the better one," and some of the other names can also be reasonably interpreted as Iranian, but it is difficult to notice a clear pattern of Iranian forms in this list.

Ha@m@an is a figure in the Koran and in Muslim tradition. He appears in the Koran as an advisor to Fer¿awn (Pharaoh of Egypt), and he is said to have built a tower which was to enable Pharaoh to reach the God of Moses (Koran 28:38; 40:38 f.).

Bibliography:
Mikhail N. Bogolyubov, "Arame¥skie transkriptsii iranskikh lichnykh imen v elamskikh dokumentakh iz krepostno¥ steny Persepol'i" (Aramaic transcriptions of Iranian proper names in Elamite documents from the fortress wall of Persepolis), in Vostochnaya filologiya: Philologia orientalis 4 (In memoriam Academician George V. Tsereteli), Tbilisi, 1976, pp. 210-14. I. Scheftelowitz, Arisches im Alten Testament: Eine sprachwissenschafliche und kulturhistorische Untersuchung, 2 vols., Berlin, 1901-03. R. Zadok, "On the Historical Background of the Book of Esther," Biblische Notizen 24, 1984, pp. 18-23.
(Shaul Shaked)

Comment:

How a Persian name is used by a high Pharaoh’s official?
Persian Kings and the Pharaohs were the worst enimies. It is unconceivable that , with such animosity between the two nations, that a Pharaoh would have his high official with such a Persian name.

Such a name is never known in Pharaoh’s time.

[galaxy]

Dr. Maurice Bucaille:

(From the net.)

The new Mullahs and other Islamists feel very happy whenever they find occidental (western white person) talks in favor of their faith (Islam). This is especially true when these western people try to associate Qur’an and Hadith with anything resembling an inkling of scientific truth. For the last 25 years or so, the Islamists have found an infidel supporter (pseudo) of their faith.
He is none other than Dr. Maurice Bucaille who was in France in 1920.
At one time, he was the chief of the surgical clinic of the University of Paris.
In 1976, he published a book entitled "The Bible, The Qur’an and science.” Ever since its publication, the Islamists have found a great sanctuary in this book whenever the question of science and Qur’an is raised.
Bucaille’s writings have become not only a source of inspiration for them, but it also has become their principal source to confront the secularists who point out the various ambiguities, inconstancies and the unscientific nature that one could find scattered all over Qur’an.

In his book, Dr. Bucaille discusses the following main topics as revealed in the Qur’an:

• The Creation of the heavens and the Earth
• Astronomy and the Qur’an
• The Earth
• Human Reproduction

If one reads Dr. Bucaille's discourse on these topics, it does not take much intelligence to note the twisted logic and his clever selection of only those verses that serve his purposes. There is not enough space in this short essay to deal with each and every aspect of Dr. Bucaille's topics.

One striking point however is that he only elucidates a natural phenomenon as described in the Qur’an and interprets that natural phenomenon as the scientific explanation in the Qur’an. (For details to a rebuttal to Dr. Maurice Bucaille please visit www.freespeech.org/rationalthinking
or refer to
"The Qur’an and the Bible in the Light of History & Science" by Dr. William Campbell, publisher Middle East Resources 1992).

This is absolutely unacceptable to anyone who has the slightest idea what scientific knowledge is all about.

Take for example the case of "water cycle.” Dr. Bucaille tries to depict that the Qur’an had the advance knowledge of this natural phenomenon before anyone could discover it. This is totally untrue. Water cycle is really an observable natural fact that is understood even by an illiterate and uneducated (in modern science) person. This water cycle consists of the following phases. (1) Water evaporates from the land, lakes, rivers; seas etc. (2) Water is transformed in to cloud. (3) Cloud gives rain. (4) The rain replenishes the water in land. (5) Water runs to the rivers, lakes and then to the sea. The cycle then repeats. There is no doubt that this phenomenon was clearly understood even by the pre-historic people that enabled them to invent the system of agriculture, which is largely dependent on this cycle. Today, even the primary school children are aware of this cycle of nature. To say that the "water cycle" is something that is discovered by the Qur’an is simply laughable and reveals nothing but the real motive as to why Dr. Bucaille is so inclined in pleasing the Islamists. Let us look for some clues to this matter.

Dr. Bucaille was appointed the family physician of the late King Faisal of Saudi Arabia.
King Faisal introduced him to the Islamic religion and its source, that is, the Qur’an and Hadith.
At that time, Dr. Bucaille was a stereotyped westerner who had prejudicial ideas about Islam and the Qur’an. He was acutely aware of the perceived de-humanized face of Islam outside the Islamic world. This charlatan found a great opportunity to make good money out of this situation.
He thought that if only he could please the Islamists by writing a few good things about Islam he can have a good share of the petro-dollar that was pouring in Saudi Arabia. This will be better than remaining as a lowly physician to the king.
So he learned the Arabic language and started to study the Qur’an and wrote the book, "The Bible, The Qur’an and Science".
Money—he did make and plenty of it. This is due to the fact that almost all the Islamic countries have translated his book in their languages and it is a must read book for the new Mullahs.
Also, consider how much blessings he had received from all the oil rich Seikhdoms.
For all of these, he is deeply grateful to his paymaster, the Arabs.
In fact, in the lengthy introduction part of his book he writes "The debt of gratitude I owe to the late King Faisal, whose memory I salute with deepest respect, is indeed very great: the fact that I was given signal honour of hearing him speak on Islam and was able to raise with him certain problems concerning the interpretation of the Qur’an in relation to science is very cherished memory. It was an extremely great privilege for me to have gathered so much precious information from him personally and those around him".

Dr. Bucaille's book leaves one with the impression that he (Dr. Bucaille) is convinced that Islam is the truest religion of all on earth and the Qur’an is indeed the words of Allah. Now when a person is so much convinced in a faith we naturally expect him to be a Muslim, isn't it?
But Dr. Bucaille is not so stupid to follow this path.
Having digested the Qur’an and the Hadith thoroughly he knew what fate awaits him (and his family) if ever he changes his mind on Islam (death for apostasy in Islam).

He also realized that he could make more money if he does not convert to Islam. Therefore, until today (any knowlrdge of what happened to hom?), he is a Catholic.
What bugs him to become a Muslim and follow the Qur’an, which he claims to be so divine and scientific?
Being a man of science why does not he lend his ultimate allegiance to the scientific Qur’an?
What answer the Islamists have for this enigma of Dr. Bucaille?

Qur’an has 114 Suras and thousands of verses. Why Dr. Bucaille deliberately chooses those verses that deal with a handful of natural phenomena? He very cleverly chooses to quote the following benign verses:

"There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256)
"(God) has not laid upon you in religion any hardship" (22:78/)

This is deliberately done by him to give an impression that Islam is very merciful and tolerant religion.
This is aimed at people who have very little knowledge about the real Islam (especially the western people). Does not this tactic sound like the tactics used by our new Mullahs?
Dr. Bucaille cleverly avoids the political, social and the violent parts of the Qur’an. Are not political and social matters scientific too? After all, there are such subjects as political science, social science, etc.
Dr. Bucaille writes that he could not find any verse in Qur’an that is against science.

If we have to believe this blatant lie emanating from his pen, then:
- Hilla marriage must be scientific.
- Mut’a marriage must be scientific.
- Hijab must be scientific.
- Having four wives at any time and plenty of concubines (possessions of the right hand) must be scientific.
- Cacophony of azan (loud prayer call, a chief source of noise pollution in Islamic world) must be scientific
- Tayammum (ablution with dirt and stones) must be scientific
- Slavery must be scientific
- Death for apostasy must be scientific.
- Islamic genocide (Islamic history is full of it, past and present) must be scientific.
- Cutting off hands and feet for petty theft must be scientific.
- Using stones to relieve oneself must be scientific.
- Drinking the Camel’s urine must be scientific.
- Beating the wives to make them obedient must be scientific
- Killing infidels must be scientific.
- All the actions of the Talibans, Ben Laden, Zarkawi must be scientific.
And so on.

If the Qur’an is scientific then why not Kama Sutra (Sanskrit treatise to love making) scientific too?
Why not the Bhagabat Geeta, Monu’s Sanghita, the Vedas and the Mahabharata scientific?
If the Hindus could generate billions of petro-dollar they can surely employ many western professors to do just that.

When I was in high school, I had a devout Hindu teacher. He always used to say that Hinduism is the basis of all science. How? He used to give examples of the mention of Vimana (air craft), Garuda (probably flying saucer or space ship), Trishul Chakra (probably rotary space station), Agni Baan (ballistic missiles), etc., to prove that the Hindus knew how to make those things, which are very common in to-days world. 'Do not these examples prove that Hinduism is more scientific than any other religion?' he used to say. We just used to nod our head in agreement. That was just to please him and to ensure a good mark in his subject.

Leonardo Da Vinci left evidence that he was centuries before his time. He draw aeroplanes, tanks and rockets. It is said that if he had the means, these drawings would have been translated to modern inventions. He mleft a solid prove.
Should we consider Leonardo Da Vinci a prophet?

Dr. Bucille is there to please the Arabs, the Islamists and to make money; tons of it. He also employs another tactic. He declares that his own faith (Catholic Christianity) is not as scientific as Islam is. What a great news for our new Mullahs! There can be no news sweeter than this, no news happier than this, no news more pleasant than this. Nonetheless, he actually fools the Islamists by throwing dust in their eyes. Never does he covert to Islam. But Mullahs are too docile and cretinous not to see his stratagem. How sad!

[galaxy]

Creation in Koran: 41:9 is it days or periods, 7 or 8 ?

Allah created The Earth in Two days:

[Shakir 41:9] Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.

[Yusufali 41:9] Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.

[Pickthal 41:9] Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.

Then Allah created The Mountains in Four days:

[Shakir 41:10] And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers.
[Yusufali 41:10] He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
[Pickthal 41:10] He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;

After that Allah created Heaven in Two days:

[Shakir 41:11] Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.
[Yusufali 41:11] Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
[Pickthal 41:11] Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.

[Shakir 41:12] So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.
[Yusufali 41:12] So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
[Pickthal 41:12] Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.

Comments:
1. Is the true translation: days or periods?
2. Two+ four + two = Eight.
Was the creation in 8 or 7 days?

[galaxy]

This is from the net to show how reliable Dr. Maurice Bucaille was:

Maurice Bucaille and Haman

Who Is This Haman?

Dr. Maurice Bucaille narrates an interesting discussion he had with one of the most prominent French Egyptologists:

What was the name of this "most prominent French Egyptologist"? Maurice Bucaillle did not mention!!!

"I showed him the word Haman that I had copied exactly like it is written in the Qur'an, and told him that it had been extracted from a sentence of a document dating back to the 7th century, the sentence related to somebody connected with Egyptian history.

He said to me that, in such a case, he would see in this word the transliteration of a hieroglyphic name but, for him, undoubtedly it could not be possible that a written document of the 7th century had contained a hieroglyphic name - unknown until that time - since, in that time, the hieroglyphs had been totally forgotten.

In order to confirm his deduction about the name, he advised me to consult the Dictionary of Personal Names of the New Kingdom by Ranke... I was stupefied to read the profession of Haman: "The Chief of the workers in stone-quarries," exactly what could be deduced from the Qur'an, though the words of the Pharaoh suggest a master of construction." End of Maurice Bucaille narration.

I (the one commenting on Maurice Bucaille writings) work eight blocks from the Library of Congress which contains 2 copies of every book published in the English Language. There is NO BOOK entitled Dictionary of Personal Names of the New Kingdom by Hermann Ranke in the Library of Congress! There has been great interest in the United States in recent years concerning African history in general and Egyptian history in particular, and there are on line dictionaries of ancient Egyptian names, *, * , * and Haman IS NOT present in any of them! The name Haman is a Hebrew word of foreign derivation (most likely from Avestan/Old Persian) which means "magnificent". The Hebrew meaning, however, is noise or tumult.

Maurice Bucaille narration carries on:

"I came again to the expert with a photocopy of the page of the Dictionary concerning Haman and showed him one of the pages of the Qur'an... he was speechless...
Moreover, Ranke had noted, as a reference, a book published in 1906 by the Egyptologist Walter Wreszinski: the latter had mentioned that the name of Haman had been engraved on a stela kept at the Hof-Museum of Vienna (Austria)." End of Maurice Bucaille narration.

Comment:
References please! The only book that I could find by Walter Wreszinski, was "Das Buch von Durchwandern der Ewigkeit," in "Aegyptische Zeitschrift", 45 which was published in 1908, and makes NO REFERENCE to the name Haman.

So, who was Haman? Unlike the Qur'an, the Bible does not "drop names" in order to attempt to establish legitimacy. The Bible explains everything within the framework of God's Divine plan. To understand who Haman was, we need to go back to the time of Jacob, the forefather of the Jewish people. Jacob had a twin brother named Esau, with whom he had a lifelong sibling rivalry. It became so bad that Esau wanted to kill Jacob. (see Genesis 27:41)

The Midrash tells us that when Esau was getting old, he called his grandson Amalek and said: "I tried to kill Jacob but was unable. Now I am entrusting you and your descendants with the important mission of annihilating Jacob's descendants - the Jewish People. Carry out this deed for me. Be relentless and do not show mercy."

Historically, we see Amalek and his descendants repeatedly trying to destroy the Jewish People. For example, in Exodus 17:8, they attacked the Jews even though Amalek lived in a distant land and was under no imminent threat. It was an act of pure hatred. For example :"Remember what Amalek did to you as you were leaving Egypt. He happened upon you, and struck the weakest people trailing behind, when you were exhausted. And he did not fear God." (Deut. 25:17-18); and, "God said to Moses: Write this remembrance in the book… that I will surely erase the memory of Amalek from under the heavens." (Exodus 17:14)

The Talmud explains: What is the meaning of the phrase "[Amalek] happened ("karcha") upon you..." (Deut. 25:18)? The Hebrew word "karcha" literally means coincidence. Amalek's entire philosophy is that there is no divine design or providence in the world. Everything is haphazard, dictated by chance, luck and fate. That's why the verse continues: "And [Amalek] did not fear God."

On the other hand, Jacob (and subsequently the Jewish People) represents the bastion of conscience and morality. While Jacob believed that God runs the world and there is an absolute standard of morality, Esau believed that life is random and morality, therefore, is subjective.

The Scroll of Esther (3:1) identifies Haman as a descendent of Agag, the King of Amalek. Haman's desire to wipe out the Jewish People was an expression of his long-standing national tradition. Philosophically, this conflict is much deeper than "sibling rivalry." Amalek and the Jewish People stand at two opposite ends of the philosophical spectrum. Please read the Book of Esther in the entire context of God's message to the human race. You will see how God's plan manifests itself in human history as the Lord saves His people from the wrath of Amalek's descendent Haman. The story of Haman fits perfectly into human history and, more importantly, into God's plan of salvation for all of mankind. This wonderful story shows us the power of God and His divine plan over the affairs of man. In respect to God's plan Queen Esther and her brother Mordecai would be the first to tell us that God knows best!

[galaxy]

This is an article about the craze known as science in the Koran:

Western Scholars Play Key Role In Touting 'Science' of the Quran
By DANIEL GOLDEN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

Joe Leigh Simpson, chairman of obstetrics and gynecology at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, is a church-going Presbyterian. But thanks to a few conferences he attended back in the 1980s, he is known in parts of the Muslim world as a champion of the doctrine that the Quran, Islam's holy book, is historically and scientifically correct in every detail. Dr. Simpson now says he made some comments that sound "silly and embarrassing" taken out of context, but no matter: Mideast television shows, Muslim books and Web sites still quote him as saying the Quran must have been "derived from God," because it foresaw modern discoveries in embryology and genetics.

Publicity Machine

Dr. Simpson is just one of several non-Muslim scientists who have found themselves caught up in the publicity machine of a fast-growing branch of Islamic fundamentalism.

Dubbed "Bucailleism," after the French surgeon Maurice Bucaille, who articulated it in an influential 1976 book, the doctrine is in some ways the Muslim counterpart to Christian creationism. But while creationism rejects much of modern science, Bucailleism embraces it. It holds that the Quran prophesied the Big Bang theory, space travel and other contemporary scientific breakthroughs. By the same token, it argues, the Bible makes lots of scientific errors, and so is less reliable as the word of God. Muslims believe the Quran to be God's revelations to the prophet Muhammad, as told to him by an angel.

Before the planets and stars, modern science has largely concluded, the universe was probably a cloud of dust and gas. The Quran presaged that conclusion in the seventh century, Bucailleists argue, in a text saying Allah "comprehended in his design the sky, and it had been as smoke." The discovery of black holes in space? Foreseen in the passage, "Heaven is opened and becomes as gates."

While disdained by most mainstream scholars, Bucailleism has had an important role in attracting converts to Islam and in keeping young, Western-leaning adherents faithful. Widely taught in Islamic secondary schools, the doctrine fosters pride in Muslim heritage, and reconciles conflicts that students may feel between their religious beliefs and secular careers in engineering or computers.

Conferences and Videotapes

"All over the Arab world, in the universities, you will find people who hold onto this line of thought more and more," says Muzaffar Iqbal, president of Center for Islam and Science in Alberta, Canada. "It has more credence there than creationism has here. In the Muslim world, there is no organized opposition to it."

Says Zaghloul El-Naggar, an Egyptian geologist who touts the doctrine on a popular weekly television program shown in the Arab world: "One of the main convincing evidences to people to accept Islam is the large number of scientific facts in the Quran."

Bucailleism has been propelled by a well-funded campaign led by Prof. El-Naggar's onetime protege, Sheikh Abdul Majeed Zindani, a charismatic Yemeni academic and politician. Founder and former secretary-general of the Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah, based in Saudi Arabia, Mr. Zindani organized conferences where Dr. Simpson and other scientists appeared and were videotaped.

A Friend of Osama

Mr. Zindani also is a friend and mentor to another Bucailleism devotee of Yemeni descent: Osama bin Laden. The world's most wanted man has regularly sought Mr. Zindani's guidance on whether planned terrorist actions are in accord with Islam, says Yossef Bodansky, biographer of Mr. bin Laden and staff director of a U.S. congressional task force on terrorism. "Zindani is one of the people closest to bin Laden," says Mr. Bodansky, who attributes the book's findings to interviews with various intelligence agencies, current and former terrorists and others.

Mr. Zindani, who stepped down as secretary general of the Commission on Scientific Signs in 1995, is now a leading figure in a Yemeni opposition party that advocates an Islamic state. He isn't listed as a terrorist by the U.S. government. He declined comment for this article, saying through an intermediary that he is preoccupied with political and academic affairs.

In an interview last May in a magazine published by the Commission on Scientific Signs, he said that when Muslims learn of the scientific accuracy of the Quran, "they feel a kind of honor, confidence and satisfaction that they are following a true religion." The persuasiveness of the evidence, he added, "is clear and obvious, as it is testified by a group of eminent non-Muslim scholars in several fields."

Bucailleism began gaining momentum around 1980, when Mr. Zindani became director of a team at King Abdulaziz University that sought out Western scientists visiting Saudi Arabia. His breakthrough came when one of his assistants, Mustafa Abdul Basit Ahmed, presented a leech to Keith Moore, a University of Toronto professor and author of a widely used embryology textbook.

Mr. Ahmed wanted to show that a verse from the Quran, which states that God made man as a leech, was an apt simile to describe early human gestation as seen under a microscope. Mr. Ahmed says Prof. Moore was bowled over by the resemblance between the leech and the early embryo. Since the Quran predated microscopes, Prof. Moore, son of a Protestant clergyman, concluded that God had revealed the Quran to Muhammad. Prof. Moore has disseminated this view not only on Mr. Zindani's videos but in many lectures, panel discussions and articles.

Prof. Moore sanctioned a special 1983 edition of his textbook, "The Developing Human," for the Islamic world, that was co-written by Mr. Zindani. It alternates chapters of standard science with Mr. Zindani's "Islamic additions" on the Quran. In its acknowledgments, among "distinguished scholars" who gave "full support in their personal and official capacities," Mr. Zindani lists Sheikh Osama bin Laden, alongside Dr. Simpson and other Western scientists. Prof. El- Naggar, the Egyptian geology professor who taught Mr. Zindani, says Mr. bin Laden became intrigued by Bucailleism in his college days after hearing Mr. Zindani lecture, and helped pay for the book's publication.

Now a professor emeritus, Prof. Moore declined to be interviewed. Reached in Toronto, he said he was busy revising his textbook and that "it's been 10 or 11 years since I was involved in the Quran."

Cultivating Scientists

In 1984, after being denied a permanent position at King Abdulaziz, Mr. Zindani turned to the Muslim World League, a nonprofit organization primarily funded by the Saudi government. The World League provided financial support to establish the Commission on Scientific Signs. Mr. Ahmed, who moved to Chicago in 1983, was put on its payroll at $3,000 a month, and traveled from coast to coast cultivating U.S. and Canadian scientists.

The commission drew the scientists to its conferences with first- class plane tickets for them and their wives, rooms at the best hotels, $1,000 honoraria, and banquets with Muslim leaders -- such as a palace dinner in Islamabad with Pakistani President Mohammed Zia ul- Haq shortly before he was killed in a plane crash. Mr. Ahmed also gave at least one scientist a crystal clock.

Mr. Ahmed, who left the commission in 1996 and now operates an Islamic elementary school in Pennsylvania, says he reassured the scientists that the commission was "completely neutral" and welcomed information contradicting the Quran. The scientists soon learned differently. Each one was given a verse from the Quran to examine in light of his expertise. Then Mr. Zindani would interview him on videotape, pushing him to concede divine inspiration.

Marine scientist William Hay, then at the University of Colorado, was assigned a passage likening the minds of unbelievers to "the darkness in a deep sea ... covered by waves, above which are waves." As the videotape rolled, Mr. Zindani pressed Prof. Hay to admit that Muhammad couldn't have known about internal waves caused by varying densities in ocean depths. When Prof. Hay suggested Muhammad could have learned about the phenomenon from sailors, Mr. Zindani insisted that the prophet never visited a seaport. Prof. Hay, a Methodist, says he then raised other hypotheses that Mr. Zindani also dismissed. Finally, Prof. Hay conceded that the inspiration for the reference to internal waves "must be the divine being," a statement now trumpeted on Islamic Web sites.

"I fell into that trap and then warned other people to watch out for it," says Prof. Hay, now at a German marine institute.

Similar prodding failed to sway geologist Allison "Pete" Palmer, who was working for the Geological Society of America. He stuck to his position that Muhammad could have gleaned his science from Middle Eastern oral history, not revelation. On one video, Mr. Zindani acknowledges that Mr. Palmer still needs "someone to point the truth out to him," but contends that the geologist was "astonished" by the accuracy of the Quran. Mr. Palmer says that's an overstatement. Still, he has fond memories of Mr. Zindani, whom he calls "just a lovely guy." He and the other American scientists say they had no idea of Mr. Zindani's ties to Mr. bin Laden. And in any case the U.S. didn't regard Mr. bin Laden as an outlaw at that time.

Looking for Verification

Prof. Gerald Goeringer, an embryologist retired from Georgetown University, says he urged the commission to try some verification: hire an independent scholar to see whether the Quran's statements could have been taken from Aristotle, the Greek philosopher-scientist who preceded the book by nearly 1,000 years. After his request was denied, Prof. Goeringer says, he stopped going to the conferences for fear of being associated with fanaticism.

"It was mutual manipulation," he says. "We got to go places we wouldn't otherwise go to. They wanted to add some respectability to what they were publishing."

Prof. Simpson -- who attended conferences in Saudi Arabia, Cairo and Islamabad -- recalls being asked to analyze an anecdote from the Sunnah, an Islamic holy book recording the acts and words of the prophet, in view of modern genetics.

In this passage -- apparently intended to discourage unjustified accusations of adultery -- a Bedouin complained to Muhammad that his wife had given birth to a black child. Muhammed inquired about the nomad's camels, and was told that some were tinged with red, but one was dusky in color. The prophet then likened the child to the dusky camel, saying both could have inherited their hues from ancestors.

At the urging of conference organizers, Prof. Simpson attested that this passage was consistent with the way recessive genes pass on traits not obvious in parents. But he says that the parallels -- while striking -- aren't necessarily evidence of divine inspiration.

University of Pennsylvania historian S. Nomanul Haq, a leading critic of Bucailleism, says the notion of inheriting traits from ancestors was commonplace in Muhammad's time. He attributes the rise of Bucailleism to a "deep, deep inferiority complex" among Muslims humiliated by colonialism and bidding to recapture faded glories of Islamic science.

Headquartered in the holy city of Mecca, the Commission on Scientific Signs has a branch office in an ornate, three-story building on the outskirts of another Saudi city, Jidda. According to its current secretary general, Hassan A.A. Bahafzallah, Mr. Zindani no longer has any official ties to the commission, although he is still invited to its events. Of Mr. Zindani's association with Mr. bin Laden, he says, "All I know is that during the jihad in Afghanistan, Zindani used to go and visit him."

Mr. Bahafzallah says the commission raises about $250,000 a year from individuals and businesses, besides its subsidy from the Muslim World League. It has operated five conferences since 1986, most recently in Beirut in 2000, each costing about $100,000.

The legacy of those conferences lives on. Among other products, the commission distributes a videotape, "This is the Truth," which intersperses Mr. Zindani's interviews with non-Muslim scientists and his commentary -- including the prophecy that unbelievers "will be exposed to a fire in which every time their skin is burnt, we will replace them with new skins."

Islamic publishers and organizations have distributed 800,000 copies of "A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam," which reprints large portions of the videotape's script, including the testimonials of the scientists.

The script is also available on Internet sites such as www.Islamicity.com, which had more than one million visitors in November. Based in Culver City, Calif., Islamicity has been digitizing Mr. Zindani's lectures on Quranic infallibility, according to Chief Executive Mohammed Abdul Aleem. He visits local schools to talk about "correspondences" between the Quran and modern science. Bucailleism, Mr. Aleem says, "resonates very strongly in the young and educated and especially I think among Muslims who are going through universities in the U.S."

-- James Dorsey in Jidda and Elena Cherney in Toronto contributed to this article.

[unity]

ONLY MURICE BUCAILLE THERE ARE LOT OF SCIENTIST WHO HAVE FOUND SCIENCE CONFORMING TI QURAN
ALL OF THEM PAID?
Site Contents Introduction Amazing Quran Islam & Medical Ethics Islam & Health Guidelines Islam & Psychology & Sexual Issues Islam & Embryology & Life Creation Islam & Food, Alcohol & Smoking Islam Views on Medical Issues Islam & Natural Medicine Medicine of the Prophet Views of Non-Muslim Scientists Muslims & Medical History Islamic Medical Associations IIIM & Future Events Islam & Non-Medical Sciences Home





This Is The Truth !
Prof. Keith L. Moore Professor Emeritus, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology,
University of Toronto. Distinguished embryologist and the author of several medical
textbooks, including Clinically Oriented Anatomy (3rd Edition) and The Developing
Human (5th Edition, with T.V.N. Persaud).


Prof. E. Marshall Johnson Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy
and Developmental Biology, and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute,
Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.


Prof. T.V.N. Persaud Professor of Anatomy, and Professor
of Paediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba,
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.


Prof. Joe Leigh Simpson Professor and Chairman of the
Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston,Texas, USA.

Prof. Gerald C. Goeringer Professor and Co-ordinator of
Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology,
School of Medicine, Georgetown University, USA.

Prof. Tejatat Tejasen Chairman of the Department of Anatomy
and is the former Dean of the faculty of Medicine,
University of Chiang Mai, Chiang Mai, Thailand.

Dr. Maurice Bucaille Born in 1920, former chief of the Surgical Clinic,
University of Paris, has for a long time deeply interested in the
correspondences between the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and modern secular knowledge.

Embryology in the Quran.By Prof. Keith L. Moore.
THE QURAN AND MODERN SCIENCE. by Dr. Maurice Bucaille.
What Others Say About Islam (Scientists, Journalists, Etc.)
QUOTATIONS FROM FAMOUS HISTORIANS OF SCIENCE.
An Explanation of Certain Terminology Used by Orientalists
George Sarton in the "Introduction to the History of Science," I
John William Draper in the "Intellectual Development of Europe"
Robert Briffault in the "Making of Humanity"
Arnold and Guillaume in the "Lagacy of Islam"
George Sarton in the "Introduction to the History of Science," II
De Lacy O'Leary in "Arabic Thought in History"
Carra de Vaux in the "Legacy of Islam"
Silberberg in "Zeitschrift fuer Assyriologie," Strassburg
F.G. Alfalo in "Reguilding the Crescent"
Joseph Hell in the "Arab Civilization"
Dr. Gustav Lebon
References

Scientists’ Comments on the Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran
QUOTATIONS ON ISLAMIC CIVILIZATION :
Napolean Bonaparte
George Bernard Shaw
Bertrand Russel
H.G. Wells
William Draper
Edward Montet
Thomas Carlyle
Simon Ockley
Phillip Hitti
Carra de Vaux
Marcel Clerget
Thomas Arnold
Michael the Elder (Great)
James Addison
M. M. Pickthall
John Bagot Glubb




QUOTATIONS ON MUSLIMS IN INDIA :
Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru
Dr. Pattabhi Sitaramayya
Humayun Kabir
N.S. Mehta
Prof. K.M. Panikkar
Babar (Mughal Dynasty)
Dr. Gustav le Bon
Sir William Digby
Brooks Adams
Muslims in India - An Overview

QUOTATIONS ON ISLAMIC CIVILIZATION:
Stanley Lane-Poole
Conde
Gustav Lebon
Renan
Homeld
Sideo
Hume
Scott
Thomson
Dozy
Kamen
Lea


Ibn Al-Haitham (Arabic text).
The Leaders of Modern Science Choose Islam and the Quran.

Scientists’ Comments on the Scientific Miracles in the Holy Quran : (Audio)

1- Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynaecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.
2-Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.
3-Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
4- Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA
5- Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA
6- Dr. Yoshihide Kozai is Professor Emeritus at Tokyo University, Hongo, Tokyo, Japan,
7- Professor Tejatat Tejasen is the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University, Chiang Mai, Thailand.

What did the other say ?

Scientific Accuracy of the Quran Amazes University of Toronto Professor.

SCIENTISTS ON THE QURAN


.http://www.islamicmedicine.org/nonmuslim.htm

[Kai Hagbard]

Unity are you interested in having a debate with me on Qur'anic Science; just the two of us.

I will make a separate thread

We can keep it going for weeks, months whatever, up to you bro

Are you ready for the challenge

Just let me know

[galaxy]

Unity are you interested in having a debate with me on Qur'anic Science; just the two of us.

I will make a separate thread

We can keep it going for weeks, months whatever, up to you bro

Are you ready for the challenge

Just let me know

Isn't it interesting that after so long unity didn't take up the challenge?

Muslims can't defend the Koran.

[unity]

where is the challenge . this work is for doctors or scientists. are you a scientist?
all points of dr william campbell were answered by dr zakir naik regarding alleged scientific contradictions in quran but dr campbell could not answer even one question of dr zakir naik.
interested viewers can see this debate between campbell and naik
on following link
http://www.irf.net

what is use of debating same thing again and again.
see the ratio 22 alleged scientific contradictions replied by naik.
not one scientific contradiction in bible replied by dr campbell.
peace

[farside]

New Scientific Predictions from the Quran!

The two monumental, preeminent, and seminal books on Quranic science are The Amazing Quran by Gary Miller and The Bible, Quran, and Science by Maurice Bucaille. However, the two authors missed seven major scientific predictions from the Quran!

Warp Drive

An object or spaceship that can travel faster than the speed of light is said to have a warp drive. The Quran alludes to Warp Drive in the verse, "Each one (stars, Moon, Sun) is travelling in an orbit with its own motion" (21:33; 36:40). If Proxima Centauri which is 4.3 light years from our Sun is orbiting the Earth every 24 hours, its speed would be 10,000 times the speed of light. Wow! A super warp drive prediction comes from the Quran! I envision the Arabic states forming the Islamic Space Agency (ISA) to challenge NASA. They will use their knowledge of warp drive to build the first intergalactic spaceship. The space race to Proxima Centauri is on! NASA engineers and scientists should start immediately reading and memorizing the Quran! On the other hand, the Islamic astronaut's first contact with a superior alien race could be disastrous for the Earth. The astronauts would try to convince the aliens that they were really born Muslims and would need to revert to the true faith or else would burn in Hell for all eternity. The enraged aliens would declare total war on the Earth and would obliterate its surface with thermonuclear bombs.

Antigravity

Antigravity is canceling the effects of gravity. The Quran alludes to antigravity in the verse, "Do they not observe the birds above them, spreading their wings and folding them in? None can uphold them except the Most Gracious: truly it is He that watches over all things" (67:19). While floating through the air, the Angel Gabriel, using extrasensory perception ESP, gave Muhammad the Quran. If Angel Gabriel was floating, he/she must have possessed antigravity technology and must have been an alien! Believe it or not, the whole foundation of Islam is based on an alien anthropologist playing with the mind of a simple, Arabian soothsayer.

The 4th Law of Thermodynamics

The 4th law of thermodynamics states that any thermodynamic cycle in Hell repeats itself endlessly. The Quran alludes to the 4th law in the verse, "Those who reject our signs, We shall soon cast into the fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the chastisement. Truly Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise" (4:56). However, according to Dante, the center of Hell is extremely cold- not hot! We need an investigation by an Islamic scholar to resolve this contradiction! Which member of Jesus Christ Forums would you recommend to journey to the inferno and report back on its temperature status? A spiritual email report would be acceptable to the membership.

Cold fusion

Cold fusion is a nuclear process that is use to produce thermal energy at a temperature just hot enough to roast human skin. Cold fusion is the energy source that powers the Islamic Hell. See the 4th Law of Thermodynamics for the Quranic reference. By the way, where is Hell? No one knows. Where is the Heaven? I know. Heaven is the Playboy mansion of Hugh Hefner. In his mansion there are ever renewing virgins and rivers of wine.

Teleportation

Teleportation is a method of transportation in which a person is dematerialized at one point and recreated at another. The Quran alludes to teleportation in the verse, "O assembly of Jinns and Men, if you can penetrate regions of the heavens and the earth, then penetrate them! You will not penetrate them save with a Power" (55:33). Just think of it, a billion Muslims can now teleport to Mecca every year for their pilgrimage and do not have to pay any traveling expenses! All of them marching around the Kabah in a lockstep rhythm would be a sight to remember! However, if the billion Muslims would suddenly jump up and strike the Earth simultaneously, an earthquake would likely occur and destroy the Kabah. Islamic scholars should immediately form a committee and launch an intensive study in order to prevent such a catastrophe from transpiring.

The number

While he was contemplating suicide, it was revealed to Muhammad that the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything is 19 and not the kafir value of 42. Homework Assignment: If the above statement seems incomprehensible to you, do a google search on 42, life and universe. How many forum members have noticed that you can spell most Islamic words in ten or more different ways such as Kafir, Kuffar, Kifir, Kifaar, etc. I think it has to do with the murky nature of the Quran where you can interpret each verse in ten or more different ways, too.

Alien Possession

Both the Quran and L. Ron Hubbard (the final & only prophet of Scientology) predicted that an alien invasion of Earth would involve aliens taking mental control over a large segment of the population. The people under alien possession would act like zombies in their behavior such as obeying and doing ritualistic practices at least five times a day and wearing drab clothing. The Quran called this large segment of possessed humanity the Ummah. The final prophet Hubbard learned, while in direct spiritual communication with the final prophet Muhammad, that "The quickest way to make a million is to start your own religion!" Wow! Farside is in the wrong profession. I think I will call my new religion:
Farsideology.

Kind Regards,
Farside

[Kai Hagbard]

Quite frankly Unity

I did listen to Sakir Naik and I did not find him convincing, perhaps the reason being that I do study science and philosophy, while most of his listeners do not.

Let me encourage you to study Anaxagoras, Anaximander, Anaxamenus, Thales, Plato, Aristotle, Ptolemy and Lucretius, just to refer to a few.

Then try to compare the similarities between the Koran and these ancients scholars, this would be a choking experience.

I heard Zakir Naik emphatically praise the Big Bang theory in the Koran as being a predictable miracle of modern science. Yet when you study pre-Islamic religions and philosophy they describe the exact same origin of the universe; hence frankly, in what sense is Zakir Naik correct to state that Sura 21 is a miracle.

Furthermore in what sense is the Big Bang theory in the Koran, in which the heaven and earth are separated, a prediction of modern science; since in modern science there is no separation of heaven and earth; the earth originated within the heaven.

Could you please elaborate on this Unity or any other Muslim.

[unity]

Quite frankly Unity

I did listen to Sakir Naik and I did not find him convincing, perhaps the reason being that I do study science and philosophy, while most of his listeners do not.

while i do not support dr zakir naik, but i have seen him answwering tough questions about science on stage in live debates which are convincing compared to his opponents who just read their articles.
his audience is elite english speaking technology driven people and not mere blind faith seekers

Let me encourage you to study Anaxagoras, Anaximander, Anaxamenus, Thales, Plato, Aristotle, Ptolemy and Lucretius, just to refer to a few.

when we have prophets and messengers what is the piont in reading philosphy and old time sciences. above people may have been great in their time but nowdays even school children know more science compared to them as science has advanced. we know their findings many of them have been proved wrong .
Then try to compare the similarities between the Koran and these ancients scholars, this would be a choking experience.

there is no piont of comparing betwwen them and quran. but i know for sure quran corrects scientific errors in the bible regarding creation , floods and so on
SCIENTIFIC COMPARISON BETWEEN QUR’AN AND BIBLE


If you glance through the Bible and the Qur’an you may find several points which appear to be exactly the same in both of them, but when you analyse them closely, you realise that there is a difference of ‘chalk and cheese’ between them. Only based on historical details it is difficult for someone who is neither conversant with Christianity or Islam to come to a firm decision as to which of the scriptures is true; however if you verify the relevant passages of both the scriptures against scientific knowledge, you will yourself realize the truth.

Creation of the Universe in Six Days
As per the Bible, in the first book of Genesis in Chapter One, the universe was created in six days and each day is defined as a twenty-four hours period. Even though the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, ‘Ayyaam’ is the plural of years; this word has two meanings: firstly, it means a standard twenty-four hours period i.e. a day, and secondly, it also means stage, period or epoch which is a very long period of time.

When the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, it refers to the creation of the heavens and the earth in six long periods or epochs; scientists have no objection to this statement. The creation of the universe has taken billions of years, which proves false or contradicts the concept of the Bible which states that the creation of the Universe took six days of twenty-four hour durations each.

Sun Created After the Day
The Bible says in chapter 1, verses 3-5, of Genesis that the phenomenon of day and night was created on the first day of creation of the Universe by God. The light circulating in the universe is the result of a complex reaction in the stars; these stars were created according to the Bible (Genesis chapter 1 verse 14 to 19) on the fourth day. It is illogical to mention the result that is the light (the phenomenon of day and night) was created on the first day of Creation when the cause or source of the light was created three days later. Moreover the existence of evening and morning as elements of a single day is only conceivable after the creation of the earth and its rotation around the sun. In contrast with the contents of the Bible on this issue, the Qur’an does not give any unscientific sequence of Creation. Hence it is absolutely absurd to say that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) copied the passages pertaining to the creation of the universe from the Bible but missed out this illogical and fantastic sequence of the Bible.

Creation of the Sun, The Earth and the Moon
According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 9 to 13, the earth was created on the third day, and as per verses 14 to 19, the sun and the moon were created on the fourth day. The earth and the moon emanated, as we know, from their original star, the Sun. Hence to place the creation of the sun and the moon after the creation of the earth is contrary to the established idea about the formation of the solar system.

Vegetation Created on the third day and Sun on the fourth day
According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 11-13, vegetation was created on the third day along with seed-bearing grasses, plants and trees; and further on as per verses 14-19, the sun was created on the fourth day. How is it scientifically possible for the vegetation to have appeared without the presence of the sun, as has been stated in the Bible?

If Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) was indeed the author of the Qur’an and had copied its contents from the Bible, how did he manage to avoid the factual errors that the Bible contains? The Qur’an does not contain any statements which are incompatible with scientific facts.

The Sun and the Moon both Emit light
According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verse 16 says, "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night".

Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible.

11. ADAM (PBUH), THE FIRST MAN ON EARTH, LIVED 5,800 YEARS AGO

As per the genealogy of Jesus Christ given in the Bible, from Jesus through Abraham (pbuh) to the first man on earth i.e. Adam (pbuh), Adam appeared on the earth approximately 5800 years ago:


1948 years between Adam (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh)
Approximately 1800 years between Abraham (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh)
2000 years from Jesus (pbuh) till today
These figures are further confused by the fact that the Jewish calendar is currently on or about 5800 years old.

There is sufficient evidence from archaeological and anthropological sources to suggest that the first human being on earth was present tens of thousands of years ago and not merely 5,800 years ago as is suggested by the Bible.
The Qur’an too speaks about Adam (pbuh) as the first man on earth but it does not suggest any date or period of his life on earth, unlike the Bible - what the Bible says in this regard is totally incompatible with science.

12. NOAH (PBUH) AND THE FLOOD


The Biblical description of the flood in Genesis chapter 6, 7 and 8 indicates that the deluge was universal and it destroyed every living thing on earth, except those present with Noah (pbuh) in the ark. The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam (pbuh) or 292 years before the birth of Abraham, at a time when Noah (pbuh) was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C.

This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaelogical sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C. This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water. In contrast to this, the Qur’anic presentation of the story of Noah and the flood does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data; firstly, the Qur’an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurance of that event, and secondly, according to the Qur’an the flood was not a universal phenomenon which destroyed complete life on earth. In fact the Qur’an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah.

It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) had borrowed the story of the flood from the Bible and corrected the mistakes before mentioning it in the Qur’an.

13. MOSES (PBUH) AND PHARAOH OF THE EXODUS


The story of Moses (pbuh) and the Pharaoh of the Exodus are very much identical in the Qur’an and the Bible. Both scriptures agree that the Pharaoh drowned when he tried to pursue Moses (pbuh) and led the Israelites across a stretch of water that they crossed. The Qur’an gives an additional piece of information in Surah Yunus chapter 10 verse 92:

"This day shall We save thee in thy body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! But verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"
[Al-Qur’an 10:92]

Dr. Maurice Bucaille, after a thorough research proved that although Rameses II was known to have persecuted the Israelites as per the Bible, he actually died while Moses (pbuh) was taking refuge in Median. Rameses II’s son Merneptah who succeeded him as Pharaoh drowned during the exodus. In 1898, the mummified body of Merneptah was found in the valley of Kings in Egypt. In 1975, Dr. Maurice Bucaille with other doctors received permission to examine the Mummy of Merneptah, the findings of which proved that Merneptah probably died from drowning or a violent shock which immediately preceeded the moment of drowning. Thus the Qur’anic verse that we shall save his body as a sign, has been fulfilled by the Pharaohs’ body being kept at the Royal Mummies room in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.

This verse of the Qur’an compelled Dr. Maurice Bucaille, who was a Christian then, to study the Qur’an. He later wrote a book ‘The Bible, the Qur’an and Science’, and confessed that the author of the Qur’an can be no one else besides God Himself. Thus he embraced Islam.


I heard Zakir Naik emphatically praise the Big Bang theory in the Koran as being a predictable miracle of modern science. Yet when you study pre-Islamic religions and philosophy they describe the exact same origin of the universe; hence frankly, in what sense is Zakir Naik correct to state that Sura 21 is a miracle.
science is yet not so advanced it changes its spot .creator of the world is the best scientist.

Furthermore in what sense is the Big Bang theory in the Koran, in which the heaven and earth are separated, a prediction of modern science; since in modern science there is no separation of heaven and earth; the earth originated within the heaven.

let us discuss simple things such as shape of earth according to bible and quran and then later on discuss complex topics
All of the following assertions made in the Bible are scientifically false or impossible:

The earth is the center of the solar system. This teaching of the Bible was the basis for the persecution of Galileo by the church.

Earth is about 6000 years old, as calculated from the genealogies in Gen and Luke 3.
Earth was created in seven days (Gen 1).
Sun and stars were created after the earth was created (Gen 1:16).
There was "night" and "day" and "light" on the earth before sun was created (Gen 1:3-5, 14-18 ).
Plant life existed before sunlight existed (Gen 1:11-18 ).
Birds were created before land animals (Gen 1:20, 24).
Heaven is above, earth below (Jer 10:11, 31:37, 1 Thess 4:16-17).
The sky is solid, a "firmament" (Gen 1:6, Job 22:14, Isa 40:22).
It has windows through which the rain falls (Gen 7:11).
Earth has four corners, and floats on water (Isa 11:12, Ps 24:2, 136:6, Rev 7:1).

Earth is a circular disk (Isa 40:22).
Earth is flat (these verses were used for centuries by the church to prove this: 1 Chron 16:30, Ps 93:1, Jer 10:13, Dan 4:10-11, Zech 9:10, Matt 4:8, Rev 1:7).

Earth does not move (Ps 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 1 Chr 16:30).
Death or illness is caused by sin (Gen 2:17, Lev 26:16, 21, 25, Deut 7:15, 28:21, 27, James 1:15).
Could you please elaborate on this Unity or any other Muslim.

well in debate dr william campbell could not answer even one question from naik but naik answered to 22 allleged contradictions. dr william writes for the websites you advertised on the links. for sake of arguing i can agree the audience did not know that much science but what about dr campbell whose all allegations were proved wrong and he was exposed
for the simple reason that quran has no contradictions because it is from the creator who is the best scientist and exalted over every thing we can think of.http://www.irf.net

[Liberate]

...
well in debate dr william campbell could not answer even one question from naik but naik answered to 22 allleged contradictions...

What does this have to do with the validity of islam?

Islamic apologetics is simply beyond belief the lengths people will go to to defend the indefensible.

Do you worship Zakir Naik?

If he has a subjective view to defend rape, pillage and cold blooded murder, how does this justify islam as being a religion that came from God? because he is defending it? Does that make it right?

Can you answer one simple question for me:

why are YOU a muslim?

________________

[Kai Hagbard]

A reply to Unity's last post can be seen on this thread

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=7893

Otherwise do keep on debating on this thread

The new thread I have created concerns particularly the contribution of Zakir Naik to Islamic polemic.

[unity]

...
well in debate dr william campbell could not answer even one question from naik but naik answered to 22 allleged contradictions...

What does this have to do with the validity of islam?

this debate was at higher level than the debate we have on this forum. thus the validity of debate between two learned scholars is multiple time more than forum can provide.

Islamic apologetics is simply beyond belief the lengths people will go to to defend the indefensible.

the truth of the matter is that muslim do not have media support as you may have. muslims are maligned in the media through lies,deceptions. in spite of this relegion of islam is growing in west due to frredom of speech there.
Do you worship Zakir Naik?

this one looks so silly
we do not worship anyone except ALLAH. we can not be taken to ride by anyone as we have quran to fall back upon for truth

If he has a subjective view to defend rape, pillage and cold blooded murder, how does this justify islam as being a religion that came from God? because he is defending it? Does that make it right?

rape pillage murders are going on in western democracies more than anywhere else. every minute 2 to 3 rapes takes place in USA alone. people are being killed by occupying force by use of missiles bombs etc etc. last 100 years many horrible wars took place and muslims are not part of them.
muslims are defending through use of intellect and not by bombs.

Can you answer one simple question for me:

why are YOU a muslim?

you should better ask reverts to islam who can give you better responce since they know better part of both religion
thanks you brother liberate

________________

[Kai Hagbard]

Unity if you look at my thread I have virtually answered every argument that Zakir Naik brought up.

I suggest that you read my thread

If as you state that the debate between Zakir Naik and Campbell was on a much higher levle than this forum, how do you explain that?

Be blessed

Kai