A Trinity Question

[prophet]

The devinity of christ wasnt decided until 380 A.D by Constintine. Now before you start shouting again, I didnt write the history of christianity. So to say that Jesus is god, is not agreeing with the bible, as some say, but it is to agree with the councle of niecias (i think thats how you spell it) decision. Seriously you can look it up. The discussion was wether jesus was devine or was he human. One side said he was Just a human being, the other said he was devin. So constintine who wanted the side of the christinas on his side because they pretty much ruled roam, sided with the powerful side that said he was jesus was a god-like figure. SO WAS BORN THE TRINITY.

Now I hope your reading this as history and not as something I wrote. Like I said, you can look up the history books, and ask a minister, or a bishop, and they will tell you about what happened in 380 a.d I have yet to come across someone who can explain to me the trinity, and I have told them that if they can explain it without contradiction I will believe jesus is god. that simple


The tricky part is this: When jesus died on the cross, that means there was a period of time when there was no son, meaning god didnt exist, because if it is 3 that make up one, there has to be 3 for that 1 to be complete. You have to be fair and be consitent when rationalizing this. If in the begining you say that 3 MAKE UP ONE, THAT HAS TO BE TRUE THROUGHOUT THE EXPLANATION. SO WHEN JESUS DIED THERE WAS ONLY THE HOLY GOHST AND THE FATHER, NO SON. THE SON HAS TO BE DEAD, AND I MEAN COMPLETLY DEAD, OR ELSE THERE IS NO RESURECTION. so that means, there was a period of time when "GOD' was incomplete, if you follow the logic used in the begining : THE SON, THE FATHER, AND THE HOLLY SPIRIT (or Ghost).

THIS IS BY NO MEANS AN INSULT. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY MUSLIMS DONT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY, THAT JESUS IS GOD, WELL I JUST INRODUCED YOU TO THE MUSLIM MIND WHEN IT COMES TO THE MATTER. SO PLEASE DONT BE INSULTED, ITS A QUESTION THAT I AM ASKING: CAN YOU RATIONALIZE THE TRINITY WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT JESUS DIED, IF SO PLEASE DO SO

[prophet]

Muhammad is one lone accuser who wasn't even there with Christ - and is leading many into death - as he is the sole instigator for bloodshed in the name of Islam. his words prove that.
No one will be able to present ANY Scriptures [NOT ONE] from the New Testament where humans are commanded to be violent with each other. All such violence is condemned.

WHAT R U SERIOUSE? I would like for someone to please quote a section, no lets make it easier, a sentence where Jesus is being insulted in the quran. BETTER YET, CAN SOMEONE PLEASE QUOTE A VERSE IN THE QURAN WHERE VIOLENCE FOR THE SAKE OF VIOLENCE IS OK. OR WHERE KILLING AN INNOCENT PERSON IS JUSTIFIED. everyone on here seems to know the quran pretty well from the way their talking about it, so this should be easy. I doubt that anyone who says the quran has violence in it for the sake of violence has ever read it and put things in context.

HAY ABOUT WE MAKE THINGS A LOT EASIER, sense the bible has a lot of secions about people having sex, like solomon and david and how many concubines, CAN SOMEONE PLEASE SHOW ME A PART IN THE QURAN WHERE IT COMES CLOSE TO BEING AS EXPLICIST AS THE BIBLE AS FAR AS SEX IS CONCERNED. LIKE I SAID THIS SHOULD BE A REALLY EASY THING TO FIND CONSIDERING PEOPLE ARE TALKING LIKE THEY ARE EXPERTS IN THE MATTER..

its one thing to say i heard such and such about the quran, is it true?
and its a completly different thing to accuse it without even trying to read it. I thought christianity was about understanding and not judging?

[john doe]

I doubt that anyone who says the quran has violence in it for the sake of violence has ever read it and put things in context.

Muhammad said if someone leaves Islam, to kill them (Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260, Narrated Ikrima) - All burnt some people and this news reached IBn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish anybody with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, "If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

lets see you put that in the right context, just briefly summarise, don’t want any futile analysis please.

Sura 9:30 "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, "Ezra is a son of God"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is a son of God.

i think the Scholars here must have forgotten to write who said that line…was it Mo or Allah??

[(Omega)]

The devinity of christ wasnt decided until 380 A.D by Constintine. Now before you start shouting again, I didnt write the history of christianity. So to say that Jesus is god, is not agreeing with the bible, as some say, but it is to agree with the councle of niecias (i think thats how you spell it) decision. Seriously you can look it up. The discussion was wether jesus was devine or was he human. One side said he was Just a human being, the other said he was devin. So constintine who wanted the side of the christinas on his side because they pretty much ruled roam, sided with the powerful side that said he was jesus was a god-like figure. SO WAS BORN THE TRINITY.

Now I hope your reading this as history and not as something I wrote. Like I said, you can look up the history books, and ask a minister, or a bishop, and they will tell you about what happened in 380 a.d I have yet to come across someone who can explain to me the trinity, and I have told them that if they can explain it without contradiction I will believe jesus is god. that simple


The tricky part is this: When jesus died on the cross, that means there was a period of time when there was no son, meaning god didnt exist, because if it is 3 that make up one, there has to be 3 for that 1 to be complete. You have to be fair and be consitent when rationalizing this. If in the begining you say that 3 MAKE UP ONE, THAT HAS TO BE TRUE THROUGHOUT THE EXPLANATION. SO WHEN JESUS DIED THERE WAS ONLY THE HOLY GOHST AND THE FATHER, NO SON. THE SON HAS TO BE DEAD, AND I MEAN COMPLETLY DEAD, OR ELSE THERE IS NO RESURECTION. so that means, there was a period of time when "GOD' was incomplete, if you follow the logic used in the begining : THE SON, THE FATHER, AND THE HOLLY SPIRIT (or Ghost).

THIS IS BY NO MEANS AN INSULT. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY MUSLIMS DONT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY, THAT JESUS IS GOD, WELL I JUST INRODUCED YOU TO THE MUSLIM MIND WHEN IT COMES TO THE MATTER. SO PLEASE DONT BE INSULTED, ITS A QUESTION THAT I AM ASKING: CAN YOU RATIONALIZE THE TRINITY WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT JESUS DIED, IF SO PLEASE DO SO

What was resurrected? It was His body
Does your body have a spirit?
What is the meaning of resurrection?
If your Body is dead, does your spirit live on, OR is your spirit DEAD?
Outside the Council of Nicea, the scriptures clearly reveal a God who is manifested in three eternal persons, there are numerous trinity threads on this board that have proven this, search for yourself.

God Bless!

[Apple Pie]

Greetings prophet,

I would like to comment on this…

THIS IS BY NO MEANS AN INSULT. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY MUSLIMS DONT BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY, THAT JESUS IS GOD, WELL I JUST INRODUCED YOU TO THE MUSLIM MIND WHEN IT COMES TO THE MATTER. SO PLEASE DONT BE INSULTED, ITS A QUESTION THAT I AM ASKING: CAN YOU RATIONALIZE THE TRINITY WHEN YOU CONSIDER THAT JESUS DIED, IF SO PLEASE DO SO

You are correct about one thing…and that is the “Muslim mindset”…

It is a terrible thing indeed.

Modern Muslim’s don’t even understand their very own scriptures…let alone the scriptures of Christians.

The Biblical concept of the trinity was copied-over by the authors of the Koran when they translated the Biblical Hebrew and Greek into Arabic.

Just take a look at 4.171…


• You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion,
• “wa” and do not say on Allah except the truth,
• but the Messiah, Jesus,
• Mary's son
• Allah's messenger
• “wa” and His Word
• He threw it away to Mary,
• “wa” a Soul/Spirit from Him;
• “fa” so believe with Allah,
• “wa” and His messengers,
• “wa” and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you,
• but Allah (is) one Allah,
• “yakoona” verily he shall be a child for Him
• what (is) in the skies/space
• “wa” and what (is) in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with Allah (as a) guardian/protector.


It is clear from the text that Jesus is both Mary’s and (in this case) “allah’s” son.

Same theme copied from the Holy Bible.

Observe that Jesus is not merely “allah’s messenger; but he is also “wa” his Word.

Same theme copied from the Holy Bible.


Furthermore, the “allah” of the Koran is shown to have a Spirit which is also imputed into Jesus.

Same theme copied from the Holy Bible.


Thus….we have just witnessed three elements of “allah”.

Now...look what is stated next…

“do not say: "Three."

Why should we not say that “allah” is three when we were just told of three elements that pertain to him….?

Here’s why…

Because…

“Allah (is) one Allah”


What a novel idea.

Sound familiar….?

It should, as it is lifted right out of the Holy Bible.




Furthermore…look at what the text states after this…

“verily he shall be a child for Him”


Rock-solid Biblical confirmation that Jesus is God's son!!!

I have to ask; can it really get much clearer than this for the die-hard Muslim….?!

Straight from their very own book of faith…




No more excuses...

[prophet]

Greetings. At last a civilized debate. I dont like arguing, i like debating, its the only way people learn i think. SO I do this with respect, and no intention in offending anyone. these are my openions.

The Quran does say that Jesus is gods word.
The Quran does say that he was born unto marry, who had a child when no man has touched her.
the quran does say that JESUS RAISED THE DEAD, AND HEALED PEOPLE.

I AM IN NO WAY SAYING JEASUS DIDNT DO, OR IS NOT THOSE THINGS.

THE QURAN does not say jesus is the son of god, nor does it confirm the trinity.

Jesus is the word of god, as all his creation. WHen the QURAN CALLS JESUS THE WORD OF GOD, YOU HAVE TO GO TO A SURA (forgive me but i forgot what it was, i think it is the secound sura (sura is arabic for chapter) title " the cow") THE WORD IS EXPLAINED IN THE QURAN AS THE WORD "BE." BE IS A COMMAND OF GOD. WHEN HE WANTS SOMETHING DONE HE SAYS BE AND IT IS, SO SAYS THE QURAN. SO "BE" IS THE WORD, AND SENSE JESUS IS CREATED FROM THAT WORD, HE IS THE WORD OF GOD.

THE SPIRIT. THE USE OF THE WORD "WE"

IN THE QURAN, THE SPIRIT IS GABRIL, THE ARCH ANGEL. "WE" IS USED IN THE QURAN, BUT, THAT DOES NOT CONFIRM THE TRINITY. THE WORD WE IS USED WHEN GOD USES ANGELS. IF YOU READ THE QURAN, THE PARTS WHERE GOD USES ANGELS TO DO HIS COMMANDS, LIKE DELIVERING THE QURAN TO MOHAMMED FOR EXAMPLE HE USED GABRIL SO GOD SAYS "WE GAVE YOU THE QURAN" BECAUSE GABRIL WAS INVOLVED. WHEN THE MUSLIMS AND THE MECCANS WERE FIGHTING AND ANGELS WERE SENT TO HELP THE MUSLIMS (the battle of BEDR for example) GOD SAYS, "WE" HELPED YOU WIN. YOU CAN THINK OF IT AS GOD GIVING CREDIT TO THE ANGELS FOR BEING A PART, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE COULD NOT HAVE DONE IT ON HIS OWN, IT SIMPLY MEANS HE USED THE ANGELS

NOW NOTICE THAT NO TIME, NO PLACE, OR ANYTHING CLOSE, DOES THE QURAN SAY "WORSHIP US" OR WE ORDER YOU TO WORSHIP "US" IN THIS CASE, IT IS "WORSHIP GOD" OR WORSHIP "HIM". IT IS SINGULAR. THE WORSHIPPING OF GOD IS ONLY FOR HIM.

SO IN RIVIEW, WHEN ANGELS ARE INVOLVED, THE WORD WE IS USED, BECAUSE THE ANGELS HELPED. BUT, INCASES LIKE WORSHIP AND PRAYER AND FEARING GOD, THERE IS ONLY A SINGULAR REFRRENCE: GOD, HIM, THE ONE.


MIRACLES OF JESUS.

THE QURAN DOES ACKNOWLEDGE THAT JESUS RAISED THE DEAD, BUT IT ALSO SAYS THAT HE DID IT WITH GODS HELP. I BELIEVE IT ALSO SAYS SO IN THE BIBLE.

NOW I WANT TO ASK A QUESTION.

DOES JESUS SAY IN THE BIBLE TO "WORSHIP ME"

BECAUSE AS I UNDERSTAND IT, JESUS SAYS TO WORSHIP THE LORD, WORSHIP NO OTHER THAN THE LORD, BUT I HAVE NEVER HEARD IT SAID THAT JESUS SAID WORSHIP "ME" SO IF HE DOES CONCIDER HIMSELF TO BE GOD, WHY IS HE TALKING ABOUT GOD LIKE GOD IS SOMEONE ELSE?

[prophet]

I doubt that anyone who says the quran has violence in it for the sake of violence has ever read it and put things in context.

Muhammad said if someone leaves Islam, to kill them (Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260, Narrated Ikrima) - All burnt some people and this news reached IBn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish anybody with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, "If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

lets see you put that in the right context, just briefly summarise, don’t want any futile analysis please.

Sura 9:30 "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, "Ezra is a son of God"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is a son of God.

i think the Scholars here must have forgotten to write who said that line…was it Mo or Allah??

NOW AS FAR AS QUOTING MUHAMMED, YOU WILL FIND A LOT OF THINGS THAT WILL BE OFFENSIVE, EVEN TO MUSLIMS IF YOU QUOTE THE HADITH. I noticed that you didnt quote the Quran when it came to someone who leaves the Islamic religion, but you quoted the Hadith. YOU WILL BE SURPRISED TO KNOW THAT THE HADITH CONTRADICTS THE QURAN, IN FACT, THE QURAN ITS SELF SAYS THAT "THE QURAN IS THE BEST HADITH." FOR EXAMPLE. YOU REMEBER THE WOMAN FROM NIGERIA, THE ONE WHO WAS ACCUSED OF COMMITING ADULTRY AND WAS SENTENCED TO DEATH? THAT SENTENCE WAS MADE THROUGH A LAW IN THE HADITH. THE QURAN DOES NOT SAY THAT YOU CAN KILL SOMEONE FOR COMMITING ADULTRAY, INFACT, ONLY THE OLD TESTAMENT HAS THAT LAW IN THERE, AND I BELIEVE IT IS STONING SOMEONE TO DEATH. THE LAW FOR ADULTRY IS 100 LASHES. SO WHY WAS THAT WOMAN SENTENCED TO DEATH? IT COULDNT HAVE BEEN BECAUSE THE QURAN SAID SO, AND IF THE HADITH SAID IT IS OK, THAN THE HADITH CONTRADICTS THE QURAN IN THAT MATTER, AND IF IT CONTRADICTS THE QURAN, IT CANNOT BE A RELIGIOUSE LAW.

NOW, AS FAR AS KILLING SOMEONE FOR LEAVING THE RELIGION, THAT IS NOT TRUE, AS THE CASE WITH ADULTRY, THE HADITH CONTRADICTS THE QURAN. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THE HADITH IS PEOPLE SAYING THAT THEY HEARD SOMEONE SAY THAT THE PROPHET SAID SOMETHING. THE HADITHS WERE WRITTEN 200 YEARS AFTER MUHAMMED DIED. SO CAN YOU HONESTLY TELL ME THAT PEOPLE REMEBERED WHAT THE PROPHET SAID WORD FOR WORD 200 YEARS AFTER HIS DEATH? ITS NOT POSSIBLE.

THE RULES ARE CLEARLY STATED IN THE QURAN : "THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION." SO NO YOU CANT KILL SOMEONE FOR LEAVING YOUR RELIGION.

AS FAR AS SURA 9:30 IS CONCERNED HERE IS THE TRANSLATION BEFORE AND AFTER THAT VERSE :

[9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

NOTICE THAT IT SAYS "FIGHT BACK," SO IT IS PERMITED IN SELF DEFFENCE. i DONT KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THE TRANSLATION FOR 9:30 BUT ITS WRONG, EVEN IN ARABIC, IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT KILLING IN THAT VERSE. IF YOU WANT TRASLATIONS OF THE QURAN GO TO

SUBMISSION.ORG THEY HAVE EASY ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS

[9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.

LIKE I SAID I DONT KNOW WHERE YOU GOT 9:30 TRANSLATION FROM BECAUSE EVEN THE ARABIC VERSION, WHICH HAS EXISTED FOR 1400 YEARS THE SAME WAY DOSENT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT KILLING, SO SORRY BUT YOUR TRANSLATION IS WRONG. THIS PART ONLY TALKS ABOUT WHAT THE JEWS SAID AND WHAT THE CHRISTIANS SAID, AND THEY ARE WHAT THEY SAID, BECAUSE IT IS STILL WHAT BOTH BELIEVE TODAY

[9:31] They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of GOD. Others deified the Messiah, son of Mary. They were all commanded to worship only one god. There is no god except He. Be He glorified, high above having any partners.

JESUS DID SAY WORSHIP ONLY GOD (he never said worship me. if he is god he would have said "worship me") AND THE POPE IS SEEN AS CLOSER TO GOD THAN EVERYONE ELSE, AND THE RABBIES ARE SEEN AS CLOSER TO GOD THAN EVERYONE ELSE. THERE ARE DIFFERENT BOOKS BETTWEEN CATHOLICS, PROTISTANS, LUTHRINS AND WHAT NOT, THIS IS WHAT THIS VERSE IS STATING. RELIGIOUSE LEADERS, EVEN IN ISLAM, HAVE BECOME MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT THE BIBLE, OR THE TORAH, OR THE QURAN, HAVE TO SAY. ITS SIMPLY THE TRUTH.

[Loki]

Greetings. At last a civilized debate. I dont like arguing, i like debating, its the only way people learn i think. SO I do this with respect, and no intention in offending anyone. these are my openions.

if you wanna keep it civilized loose the caps, it's not because you shout it that it's gonna make any more sence.

The Quran does say that Jesus is gods word.
The Quran does say that he was born unto marry, who had a child when no man has touched her.
the quran does say that JESUS RAISED THE DEAD, AND HEALED PEOPLE.

so what, did it say Jesus is the son of God, that he died on the cross, that he is part of the trinity, that Jesus is the greatest person that ever lived, that jesus ressurected, died for our sins, etc... If it doesn't then you believe another Jesus, one that has never excisted.

Jesus is the word of god, as all his creation. WHen the QURAN CALLS JESUS THE WORD OF GOD, YOU HAVE TO GO TO A SURA (forgive me but i forgot what it was, i think it is the secound sura (sura is arabic for chapter) title " the cow")

so what?

NOW NOTICE THAT NO TIME, NO PLACE, OR ANYTHING CLOSE, DOES THE QURAN SAY "WORSHIP US" OR WE ORDER YOU TO WORSHIP "US" IN THIS CASE, IT IS "WORSHIP GOD" OR WORSHIP "HIM". IT IS SINGULAR. THE WORSHIPPING OF GOD IS ONLY FOR HIM.

Same goes for christians, who worship only one God.

SO IN RIVIEW, WHEN ANGELS ARE INVOLVED, THE WORD WE IS USED, BECAUSE THE ANGELS HELPED. BUT, INCASES LIKE WORSHIP AND PRAYER AND FEARING GOD, THERE IS ONLY A SINGULAR REFRRENCE: GOD, HIM, THE ONE.

What about the times God says INCH ALLAH in his quran... Does God not know what he wants? or is someone else talking like muhammed?

DOES JESUS SAY IN THE BIBLE TO "WORSHIP ME"

he asks to follow them, and there are numerous references of the gospel having to be spread world wide too all nations, and also that he is the SEAL of God's Word. The Last.

BECAUSE AS I UNDERSTAND IT, JESUS SAYS TO WORSHIP THE LORD, WORSHIP NO OTHER THAN THE LORD, BUT I HAVE NEVER HEARD IT SAID THAT JESUS SAID WORSHIP "ME" SO IF HE DOES CONCIDER HIMSELF TO BE GOD, WHY IS HE TALKING ABOUT GOD LIKE GOD IS SOMEONE ELSE?

In the Gospel you see people falling to their knees and worshipping Jesus... something wich can only be done with God. Jesus never corrected them. And Jesus talks about God as if he is one and the same as well, it's a hypostatic union in so much that God had to live his life totally human and as example to mankind totally dependant upon God the father in order to survive these ordeals and temptations that befell him. If Jesus as God never prayed, Jesus wouldn't of lived the life of a human with it's human weaknesses... and if God didn't die fully human, he couldn't of saved humans. I hope that explains it to you.

[Loki]

NOW AS FAR AS QUOTING MUHAMMED, YOU WILL FIND A LOT OF THINGS THAT WILL BE OFFENSIVE, EVEN TO MUSLIMS

You even admit the contence of the quran and hadiths are very shocking.... see that's allready one difference.

You may seek and quote all the words of Jesus, and i wouldn't be ashamed of it... i'd acctually rejoice when you quote Him.

But when the same is done with Muhammed, well you know, he was a whole other man.

IF YOU QUOTE THE HADITH. I noticed that you didnt quote the Quran when it came to someone who leaves the Islamic religion, but you quoted the Hadith. YOU WILL BE SURPRISED TO KNOW THAT THE HADITH CONTRADICTS THE QURAN

acctually these hadith verses are in agreeance with the quran:
If any one desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him. [3:85]

in agreeance with two sahih hadith verses... wich (if you aren't a newly convert) you should know Sahih stands for authentic verses of muhammed and can't be that easily discarded.

Blood of a muslim allowed to be shed for apostacy [Bukhari, volume 9, #17]
Muhammed doesn't tolerate religious freedom [Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58]

IN FACT, THE QURAN ITS SELF SAYS THAT "THE QURAN IS THE BEST HADITH."

then why still use the hadiths? if the quran is the complete book? why does 90% of sharia laws have to come from the hadiths?
The quran without the hadiths is like a car without a engine... the quran being a complete book, is a joke.

FOR EXAMPLE. YOU REMEBER THE WOMAN FROM NIGERIA, THE ONE WHO WAS ACCUSED OF COMMITING ADULTRY AND WAS SENTENCED TO DEATH? THAT SENTENCE WAS MADE THROUGH A LAW IN THE HADITH. THE QURAN DOES NOT SAY THAT YOU CAN KILL SOMEONE FOR COMMITING ADULTRAY

acctually according to Ibn Ishaq's biograpy of muhammed and some hadiths their once's was a law in there wich permitted stoning. Look.

"God sent Muhammed and sent down the Scripture to him. Part of what he sent down was the passage on stoning, we read it, we were taught it, and we heeded it, The apostle stoned and we stoned them after him. I fear that in time to come men will say that they find no
mention of stoning in God's book and thereby go astray in neglecting
an ordinance which God has sent down. Verily stoning in the book of
God is a penalty laid on married men and women who commit adultery.
(Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah. p.684).

And in certain hadiths you see Muhammed ordering stoning.

THE LAW FOR ADULTRY IS 100 LASHES. SO WHY WAS THAT WOMAN SENTENCED TO DEATH? IT COULDNT HAVE BEEN BECAUSE THE QURAN SAID SO, AND IF THE HADITH SAID IT IS OK, THAN THE HADITH CONTRADICTS THE QURAN IN THAT MATTER, AND IF IT CONTRADICTS THE QURAN, IT CANNOT BE A RELIGIOUSE LAW.

yeah man, 100 lashes would of been a much better alternative for a harmless pregnant woman! so humane of the quran.

NOW, AS FAR AS KILLING SOMEONE FOR LEAVING THE RELIGION, THAT IS NOT TRUE, AS THE CASE WITH ADULTRY, THE HADITH CONTRADICTS THE QURAN. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER,

these are sahih hadiths, and are not easy to scrutinize, plus they are in addition to the quran wich says it will never accept apostasty.

THE HADITHS WERE WRITTEN 200 YEARS AFTER MUHAMMED DIED. SO CAN YOU HONESTLY TELL ME THAT PEOPLE REMEBERED WHAT THE PROPHET SAID WORD FOR WORD 200 YEARS AFTER HIS DEATH?

Brianiac, no man lives 200 years, Bukhari and Muslims collected parts that were written down over the years... plus your quran is only collected 200 years after the prophet's dead... then you must scrutinize the quran equally... How can anyone know word for word what Allah prophecied trough muhammed 200 years after it?

ITS NOT POSSIBLE.

you allready answered it

THE RULES ARE CLEARLY STATED IN THE QURAN : "THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION." SO NO YOU CANT KILL SOMEONE FOR LEAVING YOUR RELIGION.

no, but you can kill entire pagan groups for not believing muhammed is a prophet of God, kill the zoroastrians, persecute the christians and jews who don't wanna be dominated by islam... destroy buddhists temples by order of the first caliphates... The one thing Islam lacks in it history IS religious tolerance, It acctually made war with every religion that came their way, it utterly destroyed zoroastrians, manicheans, pagan arabs and acient buddhist temples... and in today's world the muslim world is one of the least tolerant to other religions.

NOTICE THAT IT SAYS "FIGHT BACK," SO IT IS PERMITED IN SELF DEFFENCE. i DONT KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THE TRANSLATION FOR 9:30 BUT ITS WRONG, EVEN IN ARABIC, IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT KILLING IN THAT VERSE. IF YOU WANT TRASLATIONS OF THE QURAN GO TO

quran's full of war verses, and if you choose islam, you'd be defending war and trying to make believe people that he ment peace with it till the rest of your days. take your pick.

"Those who believe fight in the cause of God." [4.76]
"For the unbelievers are to you open enemies" [4:101]
"Seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks." [4:89]
"Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure," [61:4]
Fight non muslims until they convert to Islam or pay tribute [9:5]
Make ready for them all you can by armed force...[8:59-60a]
Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame. [9:14]
...Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them...[9:73]
"I will instill terror into the hearts of the Infidels, strike off their heads then, and strike off from them every fingertip." [8:12]
"Take not the Jews and Christians for friends." [5:51]
Whether unarmed or well equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah with your wealth and your persons.[9:41]
"have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off" [5:33]
"paradise is under the shades of the swords" [Hadith vol. 4:73]
Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. [48:29]
"The second best deed is to participate in Jihad" [Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25, Narrated Abu Huraira]
"Bring them with chains on their necks 'till they embrace Islam" [Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 80]
No capital punishment for killing non-muslims [Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 111]
"An infidel and his killer will never unite in Hell." [Muslim, Vol. 2, p. 345]
"This religion will never cease to exist. A party of the Muslims shall always fight for it until the Hour comes." [Muslim Vol 2, p. 347]

JESUS DID SAY WORSHIP ONLY GOD (he never said worship me. if he is god he would have said "worship me")

Like i said... people worshipped Jesus, fell to his feet and glorified him. Jesus never corrected them.

AND THE POPE IS SEEN AS CLOSER TO GOD THAN EVERYONE ELSE, AND THE RABBIES ARE SEEN AS CLOSER TO GOD THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

how about muhammed or your imam's, don't you wanna generalize your irrationality?

THERE ARE DIFFERENT BOOKS BETTWEEN CATHOLICS, PROTISTANS, LUTHRINS AND WHAT NOT, THIS IS WHAT THIS VERSE IS STATING.

Catholic canon is 17th century. Lutheran canon was in the 15th century. Muhammed came nagging in the 8th century, so he couldn't of possibly reffered to a difference in canon. So that has nothing to do with it. Neither do the different canon's abrogate the gospel in so much that salvation becomes unatainable... the core Word and gospel are preserved in both canon's.

[prophet]

The quran was written while mohammed was alive, not 200 years after he died. The hadith was not written while mohammed was alive. Look it up. No person named Bukhari was alive during mohammeds time, every muslim scholar who believes in the hadith will say, or can say that the hadith were written during mohammeds death.

I never said the contents of the quran are socking. I only said you will find in the hadiths things that will contradict the quran and are untrue

If any one desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him. [3:85]

.

Yes, if one seeks a religion other than Islam it wount be accepted of him. If that is unfair, well its like christians believing that you cant go to heaven unless you accept jesus as the son of god. If christains say that, why is it socking and offensive for muslims to say that.

Islam is an arabic word for submission. People keep saying islam like it has no definition. It means submission. so translate the verse and put submission in there "if one desires a religion other than submission, never will it be accepted of him"

so if you dont submitt to the word of god, and the way of go it wont be accepted of you. whats wrong with that?

God sent Muhammed and sent down the Scripture to him. Part of what he sent down was the passage on stoning, we read it, we were taught it, and we heeded it, The apostle stoned and we stoned them after him. I fear that in time to come men will say that they find no
mention of stoning in God's book and thereby go astray in neglecting
an ordinance which God has sent down. Verily stoning in the book of
God is a penalty laid on married men and women who commit adultery.
(Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah. p.684).

sorry but all scholars, including ones who are not muslim, agree that the quran stayed the same for 1400 year, hasnt been altered. even if it were, you can tell. Unlike the bible, the quran is coded with mathamatics. you will probably laugh but, thats the truth of the matter. Search for mathamatics in the quran and u will c that everything has a mathmatical denomintator of 19. so if it was a law of god about stoning in there and it was removed, it would be noticed..

Submission.org click on mathmatical miracles of the quran. Than you will see why the quran cant be altered, unlike the bible, which has been altered and miss translated over the year.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace all..

prophet: SO PLEASE DONT BE INSULTED, ITS A QUESTION THAT I AM ASKING:

No, Im not insulted. Im just getting over my laughter.

prophet: So to say that Jesus is god, is not agreeing with the bible, as some say, but it is to agree with the councle of niecias (i think thats how you spell it) decision. Seriously you can look it up.

Seriously, look this up.

NIV Mattew 3:11 John says, "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

NIV Matthew 28:16-20 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

These words were spoken & written long before 380 AD and the council.
NICE TRY

prophet: So to say that Jesus is god, is not agreeing with the bible, as some say, but it is to agree with the councle of niecias (i think thats how you spell it) decision.

As shown above, you obviously dont know the Bible. You only know what has been spoon-fed to you by your religion of hate.

prophet: CAN SOMEONE PLEASE SHOW ME A PART IN THE QURAN WHERE IT COMES CLOSE TO BEING AS EXPLICIST AS THE BIBLE AS FAR AS SEX IS CONCERNED. LIKE I SAID THIS SHOULD BE A REALLY EASY THING TO FIND CONSIDERING PEOPLE ARE TALKING LIKE THEY ARE EXPERTS IN THE MATTER..

You really sure you want to ask this? Ok.

Islam permits Pedophilia—Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234/236.
Islam permits the rape of female captives—see next point.
Islam permits adultery with married female captives—Qur’an, Surah 4:24.
Islam permits lying to your wife—Muslim Book 032, Number 6303.
Islam recommends the beating of women—Qur’an, Surah 4:34.
Muhammad desired the wife of his fellowman—Qur’an, Surah 33:37.

Not only did I use the qur’an, I used the surahs and bukharis.

Because you said:

WHen the QURAN CALLS JESUS THE WORD OF GOD, YOU HAVE TO GO TO A SURA (forgive me but i forgot what it was, i think it is the secound sura (sura is arabic for chapter) title " the cow") THE WORD IS EXPLAINED IN THE QURAN AS THE WORD "BE." BE IS A COMMAND OF GOD.

prophet: The tricky part is this: When jesus died on the cross, that means there was a period of time when there was no son, meaning god didnt exist, because if it is 3 that make up one, there has to be 3 for that 1 to be complete.

So 1slam teaches that humans don't have souls? Interesting.
The only trick I see, is that you have fallen for this.

prophet: The quran was written while mohammed was alive, not 200 years after he died.

True, hey look at this verse.

Muhammads Qur’an was corrected by a blind man—
Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 512.

prophet: The quran was written while mohammed was alive, not 200 years after he died.

Yea, all fine and dandy. But it was written 700+ years after the Old Testement.
As you say:

Seriously, Look it up.

Can you say plagerism? Well not really, because mohammy distorted and perverted everything he copied.

Look dude, I have prayed that you will see through all this BS and lies.

He is Lord
Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Israel

[Loki]

The quran was written while mohammed was alive, not 200 years after he died.

lol, yeah right, the quran was compiled by the caliphate Uthman based upon Zaid's codex... that was after muhammed his dead. The Quran is a collection of peaces of leaves, papers,... and whatever his narrators could cook up with.

The oldest existing copy of the full text is from the ninth century. Wich isn't even a original Uthman version. And Uthman's version had no vowels either... their was a proces of annotation wich ended in the nineth century. Making it to a text you know today... that's a 200 years interval since muhammed's dead. TWO HUNDRED years... with all different versions of the quran inbetween. Why had uthman ordered to destroy all 'other' qurans? On whose authority did Zaid exclude and include verses in the quran was Zaid a prophet too who knew the word of God? Scriptually the quran is full of holes and basiclly bankrupt.

The hadith was not written while mohammed was alive. Look it up. No person named Bukhari was alive during mohammeds time

well trust me, i am aware of the time periods Bukhari lived... and that's coincidentally in the same time the full quran came into being. 200 years after the prophet.

every muslim scholar who believes in the hadith will say, or can say that the hadith were written during mohammeds death.

the collection didn't happen in muhammed's time... but people living in muhammed's time wrote down stuff... remember the quran/hadith says you can sell the quran for profit. I bet those little scriblings of what the prophet said would of made some money as well.

I never said the contents of the quran are socking. I only said you will find in the hadiths things that will contradict the quran and are untrue

on what basis do you belief the quran is correcter then the hadiths?
maybe the hadiths are correct and the quran is contradicting the hadiths... you put your faith in front of your sceptisicm. That's ignorance.

If any one desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him. [3:85]

.

Yes, if one seeks a religion other than Islam it wount be accepted of him. If that is unfair, well its like christians believing that you cant go to heaven unless you accept jesus as the son of god. If christains say that, why is it socking and offensive for muslims to say that.

Point is that the hadith adds unto it... it doesn't disagree with the quran, the prophet in the hadith only puts the stakes up higher...
apostates will never be accepted [quran] better yet kill them [hadith]
and this can be verified to be islamic by doing some historical research of all the apostates muhammed and or the four righteous caliphates sent out to kill... up untill today were apostates are being banned out of their families, persecuted and assassinated.

Islam is an arabic word for submission. People keep saying islam like it has no definition. It means submission. so translate the verse and put submission in there "if one desires a religion other than submission, never will it be accepted of him"

So you believe Hindu's are muslims too? because they submit their lives to God as well. Then where is the need for the quran and it's prophet? 'cause hindu's where muslims before muhammed came along.

so if you dont submitt to the word of god, and the way of go it wont be accepted of you. whats wrong with that?

but the word of God according to YOU is the quran. So that verse
"if one desires a religion other than submission, never will it be accepted of him"

still reffers to muslims only. unless you think The Vedas is the word of God... then you are a walking contradiction, and probably a very confused man.

God sent Muhammed and sent down the Scripture to him. Part of what he sent down was the passage on stoning, we read it, we were taught it, and we heeded it, The apostle stoned and we stoned them after him. I fear that in time to come men will say that they find no
mention of stoning in God's book and thereby go astray in neglecting
an ordinance which God has sent down. Verily stoning in the book of
God is a penalty laid on married men and women who commit adultery.
(Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah. p.684).

sorry but all scholars, including ones who are not muslim, agree that the quran stayed the same for 1400 year

acctually non muslims think the quran scriptually is a joke... it only has three old copies... who aren't open to public examination, not even pictures can be taken of them (i wonder what do they have to hide). And the proces of the compilation of the quran is very much scrutinized as well, unlike the catholics who have preserved over more then 5000 copies of the bible in the vatican library. The quran has none what so ever, it burned all it's copies. And the scriptures that are being unearthed today are damning for the quran (the yemeni scriptures are one example).

and Aisha doesn't seem to be agreeing with you either.

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that it had been
revealed in the holy Quran that ten clear sucklings make the
marriages unlawful then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five
sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it
was before that time (found) in the holy Quran (and recited by the
Muslims). (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, p. 740).

Tell me who has more authority on Islam and the holy quran? the prophet's wife? or a 21th century mullah?

, hasnt been altered. even if it were, you can tell.

you can only tell by comparision with the most ancient copy, and the yemeni scriptures disagree.

Unlike the bible, the quran is coded with mathamatics. you will probably laugh but, thats the truth of the matter. Search for mathamatics in the quran and u will c that everything has a mathmatical denomintator of 19. so if it was a law of god about stoning in there and it was removed, it would be noticed..

Funny you're gonna give the mathemathical fluke by Rashad Khaliffa?

Didn't that man make a heretical muslim sect?
Didn't he call himself the Messenger of the Covenant?
Wasn't he accused of raping a minor?
Wasn't he assissanited by muslims for being a heretic?
Didn't he make another quran in wich verse 128 and 129 are removed from chapter nine?

yet you use this man as a legitemate source material to defend your quran? funny!

Submission.org click on mathmatical miracles of the quran. Than you will see why the quran cant be altered, unlike the bible, which has been altered and miss translated over the year.

There once's was a website that found a mathemathical miracle in a story of Whiney The Pooh. That's how much mathemathical 'miracles' are worth.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

I notice he has not returned to defend his opinion

[john doe]

I notice he has not returned to defend his opinion

I suppose he was overwhelmed with both you and loki's convictions…. which btw was a sheer pleasure to read.