What's wrong with looking at pornography? I'm declaring war!

[FHCindy]

What's wrong with looking at pornography? It's not like you are getting a girl pregnant or spreading STDs.

A. The problem with using porn is that it emasculates men, degrades women, destroys marriages, and offends the Lord. You may be thinking: "That's going a little overboard, don't you think? I mean, what's wrong with checking out a few web sites?" Take a look at the effects of pornography, and you will see why real men don't use it.

First off, when Jesus warned that anyone who looks lustfully at a woman commits sin with her in his heart (Matt. 5:28), he spelled it out in no uncertain terms that it's not enough to avoid pregnancy or STDs. He wants us to be pure.

What does pornography do to a man? For starters, it robs him of the capacity to be a man. The essence of manhood consists in readiness to deny oneself for the good of a beloved. This is why Paul reminds husbands in his Letter to the Ephesians that their love must be like that of Christ, who allowed himself to be crucified for the sake of his beloved, the Church (Eph. 5:21–33).

Pornography defeats this calling. Ask yourself: Wouldn't it infuriate you if a guy looked at your daughter or wife in the same way he looked at pornography? Instead of denying himself for the good of the woman, a man, through the use of porn, denies the woman her dignity in order to satisfy his lust. In essence, pornography is a rejection of our calling to love as God loves. It is no wonder that those who use it are never satisfied. Only love satisfies.

Pornography gradually cripples a man's ability to love. It is impossible to love a fantasy, but living in a world of fantasy allows a guy to escape from reality and evade the demands of authentic love. In a way, the fact that pornography allows men to indulge their lust without having to worry about pregnancy or STDs is part of the problem. It encourages him to live in a world in which sexuality offers only pleasure without meaning or consequences, in which "no one gets pregnant, no one catches a disease, no one shows signs of guilt, fear, remorse, embarrassment, or distrust. No one suffers from the sexual activities of others and the men, at least, are always carefree, unrestrained. . . . The priority of lovingly protecting one's partner is of little concern in pornography because no harm seems possible."(1)

Simply put, pornography is the renunciation of love. As the writer Christopher West said, "[Pornography] seeks to foster precisely those distortions of our sexual desires that we must struggle against in order to discover true love."(2) For the person who indulges in porn, the purpose of sex becomes the satisfaction of the erotic "needs," not the communication of life and love. Pornography drives a man to value a woman only for what she gives him rather than for the person she is.

Some guys will slough this all off, saying, "Boys will be boys," or "I'm just appreciating the beauty of womanhood," or "I like the articles in the magazine." Sometimes they will realize how unconvincing these arguments are, and they'll become resentful, saying, "You want to repress sexuality and rob women of their freedom. It's unhealthy for you to have such little appreciation for women!" This resentment has found its way to the billboards and titles of the strip clubs, which advertise the establishment as a "gentleman's club" for "adult entertainment." Having the word "gentleman" or "adult" associated with a strip club is nothing less than fascinating. Why would a man feel the need to justify that his behavior is mature and gentlemanly? Can you call to mind any time where an adult needed to remind others that he was mature? Or can you think of any activity on earth where a gentleman needs to announce that he is one? Usually actions speak for themselves.

So even when a man's lack of self-control makes him resemble a boy and nothing in his behavior is reconcilable with the title "gentleman," he still feels a need to identify with authentic manhood. This is because no matter how much we fall, Christ has still stamped into our being the call to love like Jesus. If only we can untwist the lies and humbly come before the Lord in all of our woundedness, he will raise us up and make us into true men.

Now what does pornography do to women? Since it trains men to think of women as objects to be used instead of persons to be loved, guys speak of them as objects and treat them as objects. When men learn their "love" from videos and magazines, they accept the idea that a woman's "no" is actually a "yes" and that she enjoys being used. This can lead to a rapist mentality.

Consider, for example, a study done in the Oklahoma City area. When 150 sexually-oriented businesses were closed, the rate of rape decreased 27 percent in five years, while the rate in the rest of the country increased 19 percent. In Phoenix, Arizona, neighborhoods with porn outlets had 500 percent more sex offenses than neighborhoods without them.(3)

Ted Bundy raped and killed dozens of women. He was sentenced to die in the electric chair and requested that his last interview be with Dr. James Dobson, the founder of Focus on the Family. In that meeting, Bundy talked openly about pornography and told Dr. Dobson that his struggles all began there. He explained that all of his fellow inmates had an obsession with pornography before going to prison. Porn magazines and videos lay at the root of innumerable rapes and murders. No one can tell the husbands, siblings, children, and fathers of those violated and deceased women that pornography is harmless.

If you want to see for yourself what Bundy said, click here.
http://www.pureintimacy.org/online1/bundy.html


What does pornography do to marriages? To be blunt, pornography is the perfect way to shoot your future marriage in the head. Imagine that a young man has a habit of using pornography, and he does not reveal this to his fiancée. He hopes that once he is married, the desires for illicit sexual arousal will subside. But what becomes of his lust once he marries her? It does not disappear, it is foisted upon his wife. The pornography has trained him to react to the sexual value of a woman, and nothing else. He has trained himself to believe that women should be physically flawless and constantly sexually accessible. Even if he rejects this intellectually, the fact remains that his attractions and responses have been conditioned and shaped by warped, pornography-inspired fantasies.

Provided his wife is a life-size Barbie doll with a squad of make-up artists and hairdressers that follow her around the house, things might run smoothly for a time. But when reality confronts fantasy, the man will be left disillusioned and the woman's self image will suffer. His disordered desires and fantasies can never be fulfilled by any real-life woman. They focus solely upon self-centered gratification rather than mutual self-giving and joy in pleasing one's spouse. One woman explained that if a man's real-life partner is not always as available sexually and willing to do whatever he wishes as the women he has fantasized about, he may accuse her of being a prude. If she looks normal, and unlike the models he has come to adore, he may accuse her of being fat. If she has needs, unlike the passive images in the magazines, then she may seem too demanding for him.(4)

In other words, he'll be quick to blame his disorder on her; his fantasies will have robbed him of the ability to be truly intimate with his wife. One reason he is unable to have healthy intimacy with his wife is because intimacy is not an escape from reality, but the capacity to see the beauty of the other. The presence of lust in the heart of the man blocks his ability to view the woman as a person. He has reduced her to an object and ignored her value as person. When this happens, he forfeits love. True intimacy is impossible.

This is why part of the problem with pornography is not simply that it shows too much, but that it shows too little. It reduces a woman to nothing more than her body. Thus, a man will assume that the greater the body, the greater the value of the woman. With this mindset, men not only expect their future wives to look no less perfect than Miss September, they also do not appreciate a woman's most beautiful and precious qualities, since a centerfold display fails to highlight these. This drives men to look elsewhere in an impossible quest to satisfy their disordered appetites. After all, pornography fosters the false mentality that casual, uncommitted sex is the most fulfilling and enjoyable. Who does not want to be fulfilled?

One all-too-common response to the marital dissatisfaction often caused by pornography habits is to actually bring pornography into the bedroom. This is a vain effort on the part of the man to have the illicit excitement that he has formed an attachment to. The poor wife may allow this, but the joy of loving has escaped the man, who no longer sees the value of the person and the need to give himself for her. Married couples who use pornography find that their marital problems only worsen. If a husband needs to pretend that his wife is someone else in order for him to be excited, then he will become less and less drawn to her. Instead of making love to her, he is destroying love between them.

Because the effects of pornography are so severe, Christian men have an obligation to rid their own lives of it. According to Pope John Paul II, "[God] has assigned as a duty to every man the dignity of every woman."(5) When we act in a way that is contrary to the dignity of women, we act contrary to our own dignity and vocation as men.

Even if pornography had no adverse affects on people, we must never forget that sin is not simply a social matter. We owe it to our neighbor to love him, but we also owe it to God to honor the Lord in all our actions and thoughts. To lust after his daughters is a grave sin, even if no one becomes pregnant as a result of another's imagination. "So shun youthful passions and aim at righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call upon the Lord from a pure heart" (2 Tim. 2:22).

If you need any more proof of how harmful porn is, click here.
http://www.porndestroyswomen.org/

http://www.pureloveclub.com/chastity/in ... ntryid=127


You're invited to participate in our private forum: Men's Victory Over Porn
A MEN's private forum for support, advice, encouragement, prayer and accountability to gain or maintain the victory over porn! Come here to help others or to receive that help! Please pm Nitelite, or Jason, for membership in this forum if you want to help or if you need help. For total anonymity we have made it so only the word anonymous shows up on the index as the last person posting in this forum. 1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

http://fresh-hope.com/forums/index.php

[FHCindy]

Come on you guys!!!! Join me in the war on porn!!!! We CAN make a difference!!!! Let's get excited and work together!

[Geshtinnanna]

Hmmm to be honest I saw the title and somehow thought you were ok with watching porn at first. I can see I was way off base. My bad.
Anyways.. I like porn. Sometimes alone. Sometimes with my lover. Sometimes I go months without watching it. Sometimes I watch it nightly to aid in my relaxation. I don't see any right or wrong about it. Then again I am not Christian so I don't have to I suppose.
I think I might be the only one here with that view. But I thought I would help your thread along. Usually when people agree they have nothing much to discuss or debate. But people need people like me so they can now retort with their opinions on my wrongness.
Hope it brings some people in here fior ya'

[FHCindy]

I'm very sorry to hear that you use porn and even sorrier to learn that you don't know my Jesus. Who knows, maybe God will soften your heart one day and you'll come to know Him. I'm not here however to debate this issue. It's wrong and it's bad and I hate it. What I'm interested in right now is finding other like minded people that are willing to do something about it along with me. What are we going to do? I'm not sure. For starters I'd love to hear ideas of what we could do about it. I've started a private forum on my board to minister to others in this area, so that can definitely be utilized. But it's time for us to stop moaning about it and start actively doing something about it. It's time to stand up for the sanctity of marriage, and for the minds of our spouses and children.

[Geshtinnanna]

Well I see, good luck to you.

[Roknrol]

Well, I'm with Gesh on this - and I also am not Christian, however I have a question for you regarding your cause...please bear with me...

You, as a Christian, have a problem with pornography. I can understand that, and fully grant you whatever opportunities that you have to not be forced to participate in it - that's your right. However, for those of us that aren't opposed to it, why should we be made to suffer (by having our rights removed) because of something that you don't like? I'm not trying to be mean or anything - I'm seriously curious as to why you (and others that may feel the same way) feel that you have the right to tell me what I can or can't do by myself or with my spouse?

[On My Way]

Not to Hi-Jack the thread but I have been waiting for Rok to show his face so I can post the un-edited pic I have of him



OK done with the Hi-Jack

Please carry one with the discussion

[Roknrol]

LOL Thanks OMW - I figured you'd drop that off over here somewhere...

I know, I know, I'm contributing to a hijack....

<crawls back under his rok>

[FHCindy]

I have to say, I kinda feel let down. I really felt this was something the Lord wants me to do. I still do, and I'm willing to go forward with all my strength. I did think though that others would want to help in whatever way they could. Apparently getting people to help is gonna be like pulling teeth. I knew Satan was behind porn of course, but I guess I didn't realize just how strong a hold he has on it. Would you guys at least pray with me that this stronghold will be broken? Thanks, I really appreciate it!

[Roknrol]

Um...not to be pushy or a jerk or anything...

Is there any chance of my question being answered?

[Geshtinnanna]

I have to say, I kinda feel let down. I really felt this was something the Lord wants me to do. I still do, and I'm willing to go forward with all my strength. I did think though that others would want to help in whatever way they could. Apparently getting people to help is gonna be like pulling teeth. I knew Satan was behind porn of course, but I guess I didn't realize just how strong a hold he has on it. Would you guys at least pray with me that this stronghold will be broken? Thanks, I really appreciate it!

Maybe people don't feel like imposing their moral code on other consenting adults...or something along those lines.

I 'd also like to ask a personal question to gain perspective of where you are coming from. Have you actually watched a pornographic movie? And if so was it more than one?

[newseed]

Since the poster would like to have discussion about porn and how wrong it is, maybe we should discuss what porn does physically, mentally, spouse, children, work, etc. instead of trying to just say "It's wrong." or "There is nothing wrong with it."

[Roknrol]

That's fine as well, although I'll be honest - I've heard most of the arguments for/against it before. My question is still one that I have never had satisfactorily answered: What right does anyone have to impose (to use Gesh's phrasing) their moral code on anyone else? I'm all for convincing people to act what you consider morally and ethically through logic and reason, however attempting to legislate laws or change the way people do things without discussion is where I draw the line. Can anyone answer this?

[FHCindy]

If you want to discuss that, please make another thread. I'd like this one to stay on topic and it's about starting a war against porn and how we can do that.

[Roknrol]

Ahh...so *WHY* it should be done is off topic...um...kay...

[newseed]

That's fine as well, although I'll be honest - I've heard most of the arguments for/against it before. My question is still one that I have never had satisfactorily answered: What right does anyone have to impose (to use Gesh's phrasing) their moral code on anyone else? I'm all for convincing people to act what you consider morally and ethically through logic and reason, however attempting to legislate laws or change the way people do things without discussion is where I draw the line. Can anyone answer this?

I agree that one should not force their moral codes upon another but there is nothing wrong with someone using their morals to warn another of danger.

Would you not impose your moral belief to tell a person that it is wrong to commit suicide when that person truly believes in what they are going to do is right?

Christianity behaves in the manner of trying to save lives from eternal damnation by imposing their belief as to why you need saving but we do not have the right to be judge, jury and executioner. However, Christians should refrain from imposing their morals to those that do not want to receive it. (there are some exceptions)

Christians can speak out thier belief but they cannot dictate what you should believe.

If you want to discuss that, please make another thread. I'd like this one to stay on topic and it's about starting a war against porn and how we can do that.

The best approach in stamping out porn is to educate the public. You've only scratched the surface in what you have posted. As a former pornography addict, I concur with the statements you have made. Pornography is like a poison that slowly enters your body and begins eating away the spirit and then the flesh. As I look back on it now, I never knew how much I was tormented by my behavior and how it was destroying the very ones I loved the most.

[Geshtinnanna]

If you want to discuss that, please make another thread. I'd like this one to stay on topic and it's about starting a war against porn and how we can do that.

Well if you want to make a thread on how to start a 'war' against pornography members like myself should be allowed to be on the other side of that 'war' and express it here. Do you expect this to be a thread without discussion? If you are looking for supporters then you should also expect detractors.

So as per suggested I will address

Since the poster would like to have discussion about porn and how wrong it is, maybe we should discuss what porn does physically, mentally, spouse, children, work, etc. instead of trying to just say "It's wrong." or "There is nothing wrong with it.

What does porn do for me? It makes me feel very good. I use it and other sexual tools to help with my lover and I.


*I do believe this is an 'on topic' post.

If you make a thread about pornography expect to hear opinions you do not like or agree with. This is the real world and not everyone shares your views.

[FHCindy]

thank you newseed! I realize there will always be people that will deny how bad it is and how sick it is to use it. But they'll yell about rape and child molestation with the rest of us. sigh. Oh well someday maybe they'll see the connection. In the meantime, newseed, do you have any suggestions for me?

[FHCindy]

Here is a transcript of a radio show she was being interviewed on. This is just a small portion
Richard Land: Laurie, from your own personal observation of your husband and your counsel with scores of other women who have seen the ravages of pornography on their husbands and on their relationships, describe what happens to a man who gets sucked in to this vortex of pornography.

Laurie Hall: Pornography has a profound effect on the body. For example, there is a neurological impact on the brain. When you fantasize, you create neural pathways. The more you think about a thought, the more you reinforce that neural pathway!

So there is actually a physiological, neurological effect in the brain in the thoughts associated with pornography. Also, pornography causes you to release endorphins, so what you're really doing is you're becoming a drug addict. [b]You're self-medicating. And that's why it's so difficult to break this addiction.

In addition, pornography has a profound effect on the central nervous system, particularly as it relates to your sexuality. In a healthy sexual relationship, the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system work together. The sympathetic nervous system turns us on while the parasympathetic nervous system calms us down. The parasympathetic nervous system is the one that has to be in control in order for us to achieve full sexual release. For instance, the urethra, the vagina, and the anus - all of those are controlled by the parasympathetic nervous system.

But it only gains control when we feel trusting. If you give sex a guilty meaning, an anxious meaning, an embarrassed meaning, or a stressful meaning - and guys who are looking at pornography are putting all of those meanings into the sexual experience - all of those things are going to block the parasympathetic nervous system. What is going to happen then is, according to the way their nervous system is becoming configured; they will begin to link sex with stress, sex with fear, and sex with anxiety.

A man involved with pornography is going to bring that into his marriage bed because he's conditioned his body to that kind of sexual response. He might not even be aware of it, but his spouse will pick up on it. She's going to sense that there's something unsettling or disquieting. She may blame herself, but it's not coming from her. It's stuff that her husband's own central nervous system is sending out.

The other thing that happens in our soul when we're exposed to pornography is that our belief system begins to change. It takes as little as 6 one-hour exposures to soft-core pornography to change your belief systems. Men begin to view faithfulness as a less important quality in their own lives. They come to have great dissatisfaction with their sexual partner. They come to trivialize the crime of rape. They also begin to believe that women deserve to be disrespected. States that have the highest readership of porn have the highest rates of domestic violence and rape. All of that is what happens in the mind when you begin to believe the lies that are attached to pornography.

Richard Land: So the idea that pornography is a victimless crime is a cruel, cruel joke?

Laurie Hall: It is a very cruel joke. The biggest thing that they're not telling you is the economic impact of this addiction. Forty percent of professional men who are involved with pornography are going to lose their jobs due to their involvement with pornography. Some of that is because of the effect it has on their mind; they lose their ability to reason.

When you're engaged in fantasy, you lose your ability to connect between action and reaction. You no longer follow cause and effect. When you're involved in fantasy, you create your own effects. You make the effect be whatever you want it to be. But in real life, there's a natural law in operation. When I do A, then B is going to happen. The more you fantasize, the more you become disconnected from what I call common sense. It effects your business judgment; it effects your ability to interact properly with other employees.

In order to be intimate you have to live in truth. Intimacy is about allowing somebody to see all the way inside of you. If you're hiding something from yourself or from them, then you're not going to allow yourself to open up and allow somebody to come in and see you. People don't realize that pornography completely robs them of the ability to enter into lasting and satisfying relationships.[/b]

http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=2973

Here is a review of the book.

http://www.springsofwater.com/wildernes ... html?id=44

[quote]"An Affair of the Mind" is a first hand true story account of one woman's experience through the hellish nightmare of her husband's pornography addiction. She becomes the voice of all spouse of sex addicts as she describes the devastating effects that pornography has on the lives and souls of all those that it touches.

One of the main premises of this book is that pornography is not a victimless crime. Hall relates.."I saw my husband lose his soul to pornography. I have held other women and listened to them weep as they told me how their husbands also lost their souls to pornography. Pornography kills the soul, steals, the heart, and destroys the mind. Pornography is not a victimless crime."

Laurie Hall describes the very real life of living with a sex addict, one that lives in a very false world of pornography. She describes the gradual descent of her husband into his addiction when she states. "Jack's deterioration was gradual. The light in his eyes did not go out all at once, and his laughter didn't turn to sulleness overnight. The guy with the easy, open ways didn't evaporate into a pathological liar in the blink of an eye. If the changes had been sudden, they would have screamed, pay attention! Something is very wrong here! I mourned the changes, but I wasn't suspicious. Suspicion is such an ugly thing. It's so opposite of what love is all about, which is believing the best in each other, going the extra mile, giving the benefit of the doubt. I wasn't really aware of the danger until it reached a boiling point."

Hall describes the greatest anomaly for the people to overcome in gaining insight about this addiction, when she explains ... "because Jack was so clever with his lying, and because he was so skillful with his 'nice guy' public persona, I couldn't get anyone else to agree that something was terribly wrong. I was all alone in my conviction that things weren't as they appeared, and it almost drove me insane. In fact, I'm not sure that I didn't."

This book is incredibly validating in this regard because finally we, the voice of the wives of the sex addict is being heard. Hall states, "To those looking on, the marriage seemed strong, but in the hidden places there was rot. The wives could feel this decay with their spirits but kept telling their spirits to be quiet because everything they could see with their eyes and hear with their hears said things were fine."

The wives of sex addicts live in a hell that few people can believe or understand. "The enemy was unseen, but her presence permeated every aspect of our lives." There is no drunken stupor or needle marks as evidence. Only an imagination that shoots up with the vilest forms of erotic visualizations.

Hall devotes quite a bit of her authoring to address the issues of lying and deceit that accompany this duality in the life of the addict. Because lying is a form of insanity, it denies reality and attempts to force others to deny the reality of a situation by manipulating their understanding of the truth.

"Sex addicts are pathological liars. They lie bout everything, not just their sexual behavior, and they do so with straight faces. they lie when telling the truth would save them time and money. They lie about little things as well as big ones. They lie to themselves about what they're doing. They lie to their wives and families about where they are going and what they are going to do when they get there, even if there's no sexually inappropriate behavior going on. Pornography is itself a lie, and they embrace it."

It is when a wife realizes how dangerously pathological her addicted husband has become that she often chooses to no longer stay in the marriage. Hall, in writing a letter to her husband says, "That's when I knew you were dangerously pathological. That's when I knew I'd crack if I stayed with you any longer."

Hall devotes chapters to dealing with the issues of denial and how those layers are peeled off gradually, usually through the intercession of the spirit. In regard to this Hall writes, "I was certainly in a dance of denial, but inside I was crying out for the truth. I'm so glad that God looks past the surface, to the innermost part of our beings, sifting through and analyzing the thoughts and intents of our hearts. Then, when the groanings of our pain are too terrifying for us to bring into the light of day, the Holy Ghost intercedes for us before God's throne and says, 'Look, she says that she doesn't want to know, but she needs to know.' And then we are shown. And the truth is ugly, ugly indeed."

Hall devotes many chapters to describing the spiritual quest that began with the peeling of the layers of denial. When one is dealing with the forces of evil, the father of all lies, one must center themselves and focus on the omnipotence of an all knowing Father who the source of truth and revelation to them. The avenues of prayer, scripture study and sustained close association with Deity are the greatest and sometimes only source of strength to the wife in this situation."

[Scolaí]

Double post. Apologies. Next page please....

[Scolaí]

The following statements do require some clarification. Child porn, rape porn, S&M porn, and any other intentionally debasing form of sexual exploitation (which are too numerous to list here) can and will be harmful to the viewer. The type of pornography I view is limited to non-abusive sexual activity between men and women (with occasional woman/woman stuff in there).

I've been in many positions on this issue - I viewed porn before I became a christian, I viewed it (though less frequently) while I was a christian, and I still view it today as a neo-pagan. I must respectfully disagree with much of what was said, though my disagreement will require explanation.

If you give sex a guilty meaning, an anxious meaning, an embarrassed meaning, or a stressful meaning - and guys who are looking at pornography are putting all of those meanings into the sexual experience - all of those things are going to block the parasympathetic nervous system.

It is a person's moral code which dictates what is right or wrong. Some people do not see porn as 'sinful', ergo they are not going to exhibit the characteristics implied in this quote. I am a guy who looks at pornography. In my opinion, there is nothing to be guilty, anxious, embarrassed, or stressed about. These feelings come from sneaking around to view porn, which is what I did when I was a christian. Today, there is no sneaking around, and my parasympathetic nervous system is not affected by endorphine release. My addiction to porn was broken the moment the guilt feelings perpetuated by the moral code of the church were removed. No guilt/anxiety/shame/stress = no endorphine release = no addiction.

Men begin to view faithfulness as a less important quality in their own lives. They come to have great dissatisfaction with their sexual partner. They come to trivialize the crime of rape. They also begin to believe that women deserve to be disrespected.

Not always true. I am very faithful to my wife, despite the fact that I view pornography. I do not do "substitution" viewing - in other words, I don't imagine myself in the place of a man on the screen. I am an observer watching the goings-on - little more. Images on a screen (or in a magazine) do little to arouse me; my arousal comes from contact with my wife.

My wife and I are very sexually satisfied with each other. After 11.5 years of marriage, we are still very sexually active and we both enjoy our sexual experiences. Pleasing each other is the primary goal of every lovemaking opportunity we have.

Rape is a crime and deserves the most severe criminal penalties prescribed by law. There's nothing trivial about forcing another person into something so personal as sexuality, including acts such as date-rape; prosecution of offenders who take advantage of alcohol/drug-induced unconsciousness should be carried out no differently.

Finally, my wife (and women in general) have the highest regard. To a neo-pagan, femininity deserves the greatest respect since women are the bearers of life by giving birth. Strong is the woman who realizes this power she holds.

Sex addicts are pathological liars. They lie bout everything, not just their sexual behavior, and they do so with straight faces.

The indication here is that those who view pornography are sex addicts. Not necessarily true, but since the statement seems to indicate it I must say that this is a ridiculous statement and, in my opinion, destroys the credibility of anything else previously posted. I do not lie. I do not need to lie. First of all, the opportunity to lie about viewing pornography and/or sexuality is extremely rare; how often is it the topic of conversation with you? I almost never discuss sexuality with anyone besides my wife (and when necessary with my children), and I have no reason to lie to her about my sexual ideologies for hers and mine are the same.

The lying comes from the sneaking I mentioned earlier. Without a reason to sneak around, there is no reason to lie. Let me give you a perfectly relevant example:

My wife and I use a variety of different elements when we are intimate. These might include lingerie, toys, porn, or none of the above. A short time ago we realized that one of our 'toys' had stopped working, so we set upon getting a replacement. Last night we stopped by a store that sells such items; we both went in, decided what we wanted, and bought it. There was no guilt, no stress, no anxiety, no embarassment- nothing of the sort. And most definitely no sneaking or lying.

You want to stop the criminal reactions that admittedly do stem from pornography? Then remove the guilt complex associated with the activity. If society would realize that pornography is in fact no more harmful than sexual activity in and of itself, then the guilt/stress/anxiety/embarassment would disappear.

It is the social taboo associated with porn that is the problem - not the porn itself.

The overall message I am perpetuating: I can responsibly view pornographic material in my own home without the effects listed in the interview post. I am not in denial over the supposed affects of porn; I have merely managed to separate the fantasy/reality elements of sexuality. A christian moral code should not be impressed upon my lifestyle choice when my lifestyle choice does, in fact, have no impact on society as a whole or any other individual besides my fully consenting wife.

[FHCindy]

sorry but you're wrong. It's not the social taboo that's wrong. That stuff is pure garbage. Garbage in then garbage out.

[Scolaí]

problematic double post....again.

[Scolaí]

sorry but you're wrong. It's not the social taboo that's wrong. That stuff is pure garbage. Garbage in then garbage out.

I love a sweeping generalization. So compact, so simple, so non-thought provoking.

The question remains, what pornographic experiences do you have? Or are you just regurgitating what Pat Robertson and James Dobson have told you about pornography?

I speak from years of experience both as a christian and non-christian. What is your experience besides what you think you know?

[FHCindy]

what I've done or not done is none of your business. Suffice it to say that I personally know what I'm talking about. I've posted plenty of evidence in this thread that supports my view. People who use porn are a terrible witness for Christ. Shame on you! Repent!

Matthew 5:28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

2 Peter 2:14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, beguiling unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is not of the Father but is of the world.

Matthew 12:34 "Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Romans 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through licentiousness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, `Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Ephesians 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in licentiousness and lewdness, not in strife and envy.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner not even to eat with such a person.

Colossians 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.


Ephesians 5:3-6
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;
4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Romans 6:13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

1 Corinthians 6:15-16
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!
16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For "The two,'' He says, "shall become one flesh.''

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

[Scolaí]

What is it with christians and shame? I'm perfectly content where I am and I have you casting shame upon me. It is your beliefs that are the arbiter of shame. I have nothing to be ashamed of. I have no need of your shame.

I'm not intending to be a witness for christ; I'm not a christian. Thus, there is nothing to repent. Thank you for posting all of the references, though. Nice to see the christian judgment machine so hard at work. Also interesting to note that sex and christianity are still diametrically opposed.

[Geshtinnanna]

what I've done or not done is none of your business. Suffice it to say that I personally know what I'm talking about. I've posted plenty of evidence in this thread that supports my view. People who use porn are a terrible witness for Christ. Shame on you! Repent!

Shame on you! What consenting adults make or view is none of your business!
And if you want to make a thread about porn but do not want to either discuss it personally or have our opinions about it that you disagree with....well shame on you. Take off your high and mightly blinders and see wha'ts going on. I am glad you have evidence to support your view. I still don't give to flying cents about it.
And who said people who use porn are witnessing at all?
Shame on you for shaming others who have a different view than yours.
Maybe if you discussed with us from your personal view and not just preach at us we would be able to have a discussion. But you don't want a discussion. You want everyone to believe what you believe and you do not want those that have an opposing view to have any say. That is the same thing as saying I am going to talk AT you and not TO you.

You want to open your mouth to speak you have to open your ears to hear.

[FHCindy]

Oh then I should just accept rape and child molesting? I dont' think so. Sorry, porn is wrong and it's disgusting.

[Geshtinnanna]

Oh then I should just accept rape and child molesting? I don't' think so. Sorry, porn is wrong and it's disgusting.

They are very different ideas. Well you should hate having sex with your spouse since it involves sexual intercourse. Because rape has intercourse and do does most molestation. Make sense? No. Your one, and oft repeated, sentence of 'It's disgusting' will not fly with me.
So to aid you I will clarify a few definitions for you.

rape1 Audio pronunciation of "rape" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rp)
n.

Code: Select all

1. The [b]crime[/b] of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
   2. The act of seizing and carrying off by [b]force[/b]; abduction.
   3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.


tr.v. raped, rap·ing, rapes

   1. To [b]force[/b] (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.
   2. To seize and carry off by force.
   3. To plunder or pillage.


notice the word Crime and the wordforce

Rape is an act of violence with the sexual force being implemented as the tool for said such crime. It is not a sexual act.

Code: Select all

mo·lest   Audio pronunciation of "molest" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (m-lst)
tr.v. mo·lest·ed, mo·lest·ing, mo·lests

   1. To disturb, interfere with, or annoy.
   2. To subject to unwanted or improper sexual activity.
[/quote]

Notice the word 'unwanted '?

Code: Select all

por·nog·ra·phy   Audio pronunciation of "pornography" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (pôr-ngr-f)
n.

   1. Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal.
   2. The presentation or production of this material.
   3. Lurid or sensational material: “Recent novels about the Holocaust have kept Hitler well offstage [so as] to avoid the... pornography of the era” (Morris Dickstein).

Notice there are no words of 'force' or 'crime'?
Pornography is NOT the same as rape and molestation. Rape and molestation has crime and force. Pornography does not. These are consensual adults making sexual materials for other consensual adults.
You sound disgusted with porn. That's fine. I won't force you to watch it. I like it. Do not force me to not watch it. What makes you better or the judge of my life? Nothing.
Now before you jump on it again...there are exceptions. There are people who get into this business due to drug abuse and sexual issues. But I would first point that finger at your leaders of faith before you point that finger here.

[Roknrol]

<My post got dropped...fortunately I though ahead and copied it! >

Wow...this is what I was looking for - an actual discussion instead of throwing out statements without information...that being said

Of course, as I'm sure most that read this will have figured out, I agree with Gesh and Scolai - as a matter of fact, I will give my personal opinions (and why) and when, and how - I am not ashamed of my life or my past. I have done things that are shamefull - however pornography is not one of them - and as I've said many times in the past, my life is an open book. All you have to do is ask, and I'll answer honestly to the best of my abilities.

There. That being said

I enjoy pornography. I enjoy it by myself and I enjoy it with my wife. There are no feelings of guilt or shame associated with it - it simply is. It is not a necessity, however it is a pasttime, and why should I not participate in a hobby I enjoy when it's not harming anyone?

I'm sure that you would include strip clubs into your definition of pornography, and since that is something that has yet to be brought up, perhaps I can actually toss some info out there regarding that

My wife and I have been to multiple strip clubs in our area. We have lived in the city for 4 years and have gone to 3 different strip clubs - a grand total of about five times. The primary reasons for not going more are 1) my wife is going to Nursing School and our time together is limited as it is. It's even more limited when she has school/work the next day, so going out at night is infrequent at best. This will change 2) Lack of money. We enjoy going to the clubs and while many of them don't have a cover charge for locals, the drinks (most clubs only serve soda/tea - no booze) can be pricy. Not only that, what those girls do is hard work - and most times they have to pay the club before they even get onstage. Not only that, private dances (from which my wife and I have had a few) are pretty expensive.

My wife considered herself, at one time, bisexual. She has been in a couple of different girl/girl relationships. She does not consider herself bisexual anymore because she is married and because sexually she is not stimulated by women as much as she once was. She still enjoys the dances and the dancers (as do I). Neither she nor I have ever cheated (or considered cheating) on a partner. We have discussed pretty much every possible scenario regarding our sexuality and know what does and doesn't offend the other person. Our relationship does not suffer emotionally or sexually - granted, we are not as active as we once were, however most of that is because of her work/school schedule.

I agree that associating rape/molestation with pornography is inaccurate at best - what a rapist/molester gets from his or her activities is power. The sex is an incidental issue. What a man or woman gets from posing/acting in a pornographic magazine or movie is money. It is a job. What a person viewing pornography gets is entertainment - just like any other magazine or movie.

I will agree that men and women leave each other all the time - and many times they claim that it's because of pornography, they were too weak, they went to the strip club...etc etc etc..."I couldn't say no!!" To those I would have to say "Horse Pucky!" If you made a promise to your spouse to be faithful then regardless of what your excuse is you have broken that promise. Those individuals get no respect from me - ever. It is the responsibility of those in the relationship to set boundaries, not the responsibility of some person down the street that claims immoral or unethical fact, all the while being unable to back it up.

As I have said many times before - you have the right to view what I do as wrong. You have the right to discuss and debate the topic with me to your hearts content. However, unless my activity is harming another person, you do not have the right to take that away from me. I take my freedoms very seriously...which is why I questioned your motives.

Thanks for the discussion!

[FHCindy]

Matthew 3:2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!''

Matthew 3:8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,

Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.''

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.''

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Acts 8:22 "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

2 Corinthians 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Revelation 3:3 "Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Matthew 10:14 "And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.

[Geshtinnanna]

FHCindy, please stop talking AT us and talk to us. You started this thread and you have now retreated into the ever redundant scripture quoting. Let me give you some advice...if you want to actually change the things about porn(i.e. ridding the world of it) then you should learn to discuss the issue without referring to scripture. There are actual people who do not believe the bible. Yeah, shoking. Scipture is your reasoning for not liking porn. It is notththe way to discuss porn.In th amount of time it took you to find those quotes you could have an actual discussion with members here who disagree with you. Change can only come from learning. Learning comes from discussing and exchanging of ideas. Learning does not come from hearing someone Google bible passages to a book she does not believe in. I have learned only one thing. You have no idea what you are talking about.
This is not church. This is a discussion board. And if you plan to google bible quotes about how discussion is wrong, please remove your finger from the submit button.

[FHCindy]

This thread is only for a discussion of how we can help others get away from porn. It is NOT for a discussion of if it's ok or not.
That being said, I do want to say this to you:

the Bible says that if I don't tell you the Truth then it would be on my head if you die in your sins. Therefore, I will take the time once more to speak the Truth to you in love.

You are each sinful as are all humans

God sent Jesus, His Son to die for your sins and the sins of the whole world.

Jesus is God

The Holy Spirit who indwells everyone who accepts the salvation of God is also God.

God is three in one: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus was crucified for your sins even though He Himself was totally innocent and sin free. He rose from the dead three days later and physically ascended into Heaven. He will return the same way, to this earth again.

The ONLY way you can ever go to Heaven which is totally real, is by accepting the free gift of salvation. Here is a prayer in case you choose to do so:

"Jesus, I know that I have sinned against you. I know the truth is that I have sinned by my own choice, and I am the one responsible for it. I know that I have earned punishment from You, and that the fair punishment would be death. Jesus, I believe that You died in my place. Forgive me for my sin. I cannot cover or take my sin away, I am relying totally and only on You. You are the only one who can save me. I reject my sin, I turn away from it, I repent. Come into my life, take away my sin, and show me how to live my life in a way that is right and pleasing to You. Amen"


If you have prayed this, YOU ARE SAVED! You are now completely forgiven, a new creation, innocent in the eyes of God. Welcome to the family of God!

If you have not prayed this or a similar prayer meaning it, then you will NOT go to heaven. You will go to hell. Hell is a very real place also and is nothing to scoff at. You MUST make a choice. The very act of not choosing means you choose Satan.

Here's some of what you can expect in Hell:

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.


Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand! God loves you and doesn't want you to go to Hell. But He has given you free choice and will respect your wishes. He is hoping that you will choose to trun to Him and put heresy behind you.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Lastly the bible also says as I posted above:
Matthew 10:14 "And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet.

Now I will leave this thread, but if anyone wants to help in this war or anyone has ideas they think I could use, please feel free to pm me. Thank you Aineo for allowing me to post this here.

[Scolaí]

The whole "jesus living inside of you" idea is all extra-biblical. Of course, since you abandoned the very thread that you said god wanted you to start we won't have the opportunity to discuss that topic.

I guess god didn't expect that you would actually encounter so much resistance from other members of the board. Did anybody actually write in support of your little war on porn?

[Roknrol]

The ONLY way you can ever go to Heaven which is totally real,

Your entire post was simply a matter of opinion and faith - which I can accept. This statement, however, begs the reply: Prove it.

You can't, therefore if you wish to discuss pornography and what is wrong with it using logic, life, experience, or perhaps science then possibly this discussion may actually be interesting.

I'm curious as well - did your search for support ever turn up others that were willing to fight against something that harms no one?

[Geshtinnanna]

This thread is only for a discussion of how we can help others get away from porn. It is NOT for a discussion of if it's ok or not.
That being said, I do want to say this to you:

You didn't exactly follow your own rules now did you? And I did offer you an idea on how to stop porn. I stated you needed to discuss this and not talk at. Peple will never change their minds if you continue to want to only hear the sound of your own words.

Now I will leave this thread, but if anyone wants to help in this war or anyone has ideas they think I could use, please feel free to pm me. Thank you Aineo for allowing me to post this here.[/color]

I was not discussing right or wrong for anyone. I was discussing my opinion which you obviously do not want to hear. But hey I am even willing to help you out since you seem to be unable to do it on your own..

Parsonage battle against porn
At the bottom it gives you resource information.

fire of darkness
Chalcedon

[On My Way]

Thanks for posting the links Gesh.

[FHCindy]

yes, thank you for the links, I appreciate it!

[Aineo]

What's wrong with looking at pornography? I'm declaring war!

From a Christian perspective pornography has but one use and that is to arose lust, which equates to adultery. However, we as Christians have a problem with "declaring war" on what the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled is covered by the 1st Amendment. Therefore the only way to win a war on pornography is to educate people on how it adversely affects society.

Also I must respectfully disagree with this:

the Bible says that if I don't tell you the Truth then it would be on my head if you die in your sins. Therefore, I will take the time once more to speak the Truth to you in love.

The Bible tells us that we are to take the gospel to the ends of the earth and the gospel does not include making an issue of sin. In a nutshell the gospel is; "love your neighbor as yourself" so that those you encounter can see God's truth in you.

[Roknrol]

Aineo: Take a seat...this is going to come as a complete shock...

Therefore the only way to win a war on pornography is to educate people on how it adversely affects society.

I couldn't agree with you more!!!

[On My Way]

Aineo: Take a seat...this is going to come as a complete shock...

Therefore the only way to win a war on pornography is to educate people on how it adversely affects society.

I couldn't agree with you more!!!

See he told you in another thread that you would be suprised at how much you may agree on.

[FHCindy]

We now have a banner to use! Please feel free to use it anywhere at all, even in your siggy. I've set it up so that it links to FH index page.

http://www.fresh-hope.com/forums/index.php

[V-Agent]

You'd be surprised how often Porn can stop male adolescent suicide: it very often is the only way of release for young teenagers living in a repressive school system and hierarchical peer network.

I know this for a fact from talking to many teens as a volunteer councellor.

[FHCindy]

[Geshtinnanna]

:roll:

Would you care to clarify that remark? Or is the rolling of the eyes the normal reaction Christians give to someone's opinion.

[Alpha]

Some people also believe taking drugs will get rid of their problems. But then you will say there is a difference between lusting after a woman and taking drugs. Concerning these matters we shall know who fears God and who does not. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, therefore wisdom shall be the judge.

[Aineo]

You'd be surprised how often Porn can stop male adolescent suicide: it very often is the only way of release for young teenagers living in a repressive school system and hierarchical peer network.

I know this for a fact from talking to many teens as a volunteer councellor.

Since making porn available to teens is a violation of the law how do you as a counselor deal with helping teens deal with "a repressive school system and hierarchical peer network" and remain within the law?

What adults do is none of our business but when teens are perverted for financial gain and you justify it with "it helps prevent suicide" you are rationalizing a problem not helping suicidal teens.

[Geshtinnanna]

What adults to is none of our business but when teens are perverted for financial gain and you justify it with "it helps prevent suicide" you are rationalizing a problem not helping suicidal teens.

Very good point that I actually agree with whole heartedly. I would, however like this person to explain in a little more detail about his opinion. Are there any actual facts to back his statement up or is this simply personal experience and anecdotal?

[V-Agent]

You'd be surprised how often Porn can stop male adolescent suicide: it very often is the only way of release for young teenagers living in a repressive school system and hierarchical peer network.

I know this for a fact from talking to many teens as a volunteer councellor.

Since making porn available to teens is a violation of the law how do you as a counselor deal with helping teens deal with "a repressive school system and hierarchical peer network" and remain within the law?

As a councellor it is not my place to make judgements on the behaviour of my clients, instead I listen to their problems and if needed provide them with the facilities available through our organisation to help them with their needs: such as a safe place to "hang out" to keep them off the streets and literature and advice to try and help them with their problems, such as advice to prevent unwanted pregnancy, STDs and harm minimisation of drug and alcohol related issues, as well as referrals to medical facilities and rehab through our on-site doctor.
We also have a Chaplain working with us who provides advice and councelling in spiritual matters if the client so desires, in a more relaxed, less threatening atmosphere than most find within their homes and community.

Any and all of our services and facilities are available for their use if they so desire them, we do not force them, nor is that desirable any more than judging them or their behaviour - that is between them and their creator.
You see, the one thing that does not work with teenagers are value judgements, because if that they were to get that from us, they simply would not use the resources available from us, and get into more harm.

If the truth be told, I truly wish that porn were the only illegal thing most of our clients got into; sadly there are far darker and more harmful things that threaten the youth of today, abuse both physical and sexual among them.

What adults to is none of our business but when teens are perverted for financial gain and you justify it with "it helps prevent suicide" you are rationalizing a problem not helping suicidal teens.

Hardly.

This 'anti-porn league' makes it it's business to prevent anyone from using porn, adults included, so that comment does not stand up to scrutiny.

What I have done is provide a comment on something that I have found out directly, something that quite frankly surprised me.
The point is, that most issues, this one included, are far more complex than a value judgement is able to explain.

For the record, one of the few requirements of our organisation with our clients is that no illegal objects or materials are allowed on our premises: drugs, alcohol, weaponry, stolen goods, as well as pornography.

[V-Agent]

You'd be surprised how often Porn can stop male adolescent suicide: it very often is the only way of release for young teenagers living in a repressive school system and hierarchical peer network.

I know this for a fact from talking to many teens as a volunteer councellor.

Since making porn available to teens is a violation of the law how do you as a counselor deal with helping teens deal with "a repressive school system and hierarchical peer network" and remain within the law?

As a councellor it is not my place to make judgements on the behaviour of my clients, instead I listen to their problems and if needed provide them with the facilities available through our organisation to help them with their needs: such as a safe place to "hang out" to keep them off the streets and literature and advice to try and help them with their problems, such as advice to prevent unwanted pregnancy, STDs and harm minimisation of drug and alcohol related issues, as well as referrals to medical facilities and rehab through our on-site doctor.
We also have a Chaplain working with us who provides advice and councelling in spiritual matters if the client so desires, in a more relaxed, less threatening atmosphere than most find within their homes and community.

Any and all of our services and facilities are available for their use if they so desire them, we do not force them, nor is that desirable any more than judging them or their behaviour - that is between them and their creator.
You see, the one thing that does not work with teenagers are value judgements, because if that they were to get that from us, they simply would not use the resources available from us, and get into more harm.

If the truth be told, I truly wish that porn were the only illegal thing most of our clients got into; sadly there are far darker and more harmful things that threaten the youth of today, abuse both physical and sexual among them.

What adults to is none of our business but when teens are perverted for financial gain and you justify it with "it helps prevent suicide" you are rationalizing a problem not helping suicidal teens.

Hardly.

This 'anti-porn league' makes it it's business to prevent anyone from using porn, adults included, so that comment does not stand up to scrutiny.

What I have done is provide a comment on something that I have found out directly, something that quite frankly surprised me.
The point is, that most issues, this one included, are far more complex than a value judgement is able to explain.

For the record, one of the few requirements of our organisation with our clients is that no illegal objects or materials are allowed on our premises: drugs, alcohol, weaponry, stolen goods, as well as pornography.

[Aineo]

V-Agent, you are the one who posted that the use of porn reduces male teen suicide. All I did was post that you are rationalizing the use of porn by teens. You could just as easily have posted that drug use reduces male teen suicide since drugs (like alcohol) give not only teens but adults a way to escape the real world.

BTW, this statement you posted is actually a value judgement made by your organization:

For the record, one of the few requirements of our organisation with our clients is that no illegal objects or materials are allowed on our premises: drugs, alcohol, weaponry, stolen goods, as well as pornography.

Therefore when you prohibit "illegal objects or materials" you are in affect controlling those who take advantage of your service by making a value judgment.

[V-Agent]

V-Agent, you are the one who posted that the use of porn reduces male teen suicide. All I did was post that you are rationalizing the use of porn by teens. You could just as easily have posted that drug use reduces male teen suicide since drugs (like alcohol) give not only teens but adults a way to escape the real world.

The difference is that drugs are physically harmful and actually lead to depression and suicide, as well as more direct harm such as overdose, accidents and general ill health. I have not seen porn do the same.

While porn is morally objective, drugs are physically dangerous and can actually lead to death.

BTW, this statement you posted is actually a value judgement made by your organization:

For the record, one of the few requirements of our organisation with our clients is that no illegal objects or materials are allowed on our premises: drugs, alcohol, weaponry, stolen goods, as well as pornography.

Therefore when you prohibit "illegal objects or materials" you are in affect controlling those who take advantage of your service by making a value judgment.

We enforce legal requirements on our premises, and as a result make sure that our services remain available to future clients.
There is a huge difference between making a value judgement and remaining within the bounds of law.
I would not like to see our premises become a place for clients of ours scoring drugs from others, nor gain access to pornographic material.

It is not a value judgement, it is hard legal fact.

Wasn't the legality of teenage access to pornography a point of contention of yours in your last post?

[Aineo]

Obeying the law is a value judgment every person makes on a daily basis. Do you ever exceed the speed limit? As to the harmful effects of pornography I think if you really researched the subject you will find a plethora of evidence that when anyone (teen or adult) is obssessed with porn it is damaging to their ability to interact socially and can lead to and/or contribute to antisocial behavior.

Now Geshtinnanna asked a valid question do you think you can respond to it? You see it is my experience that porn use by teens is no more beneficial than smoking weed in fact porn can get hormones raging and increase depression for those who have problems relating to others on a sexual basis. Do you have something besides anecdotal evidence to back up your claim?

[FHCindy]

why would you encourage someone to replace a serious problem with yet another serious problem? That makes no sense at all. I have to admit though that in this day and age it doesn't surprise me. What a shame that our young people are so desperate for love and attention that they'll turn to porn for it rather than do the work necessary to find true and lasting relationships. It's also showing that there is a real failure on the part of our society to provide our kids with the tools and knowledge necessary to live a good life and to know just how worthwhile they are. Since God sent Jesus to die a horrible death for them on the cross, He must think an awful lot of them and love them tremendously. Yet people yell, "don't teach our children about God"..... and God is the only one that can help them.

[Roknrol]

why would you encourage someone to replace a serious problem with yet another serious problem? That makes no sense at all.

In order for you to make this claim you still have to show that pornography is a serious problem. You have not done this.

I have to admit though that in this day and age it doesn't surprise me. What a shame that our young people are so desperate for love and attention that they'll turn to porn for it rather than do the work necessary to find true and lasting relationships. It's also showing that there is a real failure on the part of our society to provide our kids with the tools and knowledge necessary to live a good life and to know just how worthwhile they are.

What's funny is that most of the people that I know that indulge in pornography (including myself) have relatively high self-esteems. The people that I know who are open about their porn habits are outgoing, intelligent, loving, kind, socially adept, and law-abiding. This is yet another claim that you (IMO) should back up. It strikes me that quite possibly the only "observation" you've done on pornography has to do with backally peepshows that you've seen in movies. Either that or you've only read the Christian propaganda - which tells me you should do a little bit more research. Of course, that's just my opinion - but that's an opinion coming from a happy, relatively healthy, intelligent, attractive, hard-working, non-Christian who is perfectly satisfied with a bit of self-love when his spouse is too busy or tired to indulge him. I'm still curious as to why my (or anyone elses) personal habits are anyone elses business. I suppose that you'll tell me it's harmful - however read my first comment above before you go there please.

Since God sent Jesus to die a horrible death for them on the cross, He must think an awful lot of them and love them tremendously. Yet people yell, "don't teach our children about God"..... and God is the only one that can help them.

Religion is something that should be taught by family and friends - not government. I don't want you teaching my son about God for the same reason I wouldn't want David Koresh or Charlie Manson teaching him. I would prefer that he be taught what I feel is proper for him to know, and I certainly don't trust the schools (or any other stranger for that matter) to teach my son the morality and the ethics that I believe are important. That is how (IMO) society stagnates and socially dies. Half the time we can't even get the schools to teach things like reading, writing, and 'rithmatic properly (understaffed, underpaid, etc), do you really want them to teach your kids how to save their immortal soul? I sure don't. Of course, none of this paragraph is on-topic, but you brought it up

[Aineo]

Roknrol, have you ever studied the sociology behind the fall of empires? It usually comes after the moral fiber of the empire fails. Appealing to your personal attitudes and use of porn is anecdotal. So you don't want conservatives teaching your children morality that is your option you can teach your children as you will but do liberals have the right to force their egalitarian liberalism down the throats of an entire nation?

As to Cindy appealing only to Christian propaganda it is a documented fact that the majority of sexual predators are addicted to porn. A lot of the "propaganda" cited by Christian sources comes from the U.S. Department of Justice. Ask a battered wife whose husband is addicted to violent porn why she would like to see it banned and then maybe you will understand why some people (not all of whom are Christians) wage war against the porn industry.

[Roknrol]

Roknrol, have you ever studied the sociology behind the fall of empires? It usually comes after the moral fiber of the empire fails.

Really? From what I've read the fall of most empires is because they pissed off too many people and stretched their defense (read military) too thin. If you forcibly take over someone's country, they will try to get it back - that's just plain common sense. If you're military is not strong enough in that particular country, you will lose it - just as Poland during WWI and WWII.

Appealing to your personal attitudes and use of porn is anecdotal. So you don't want conservatives teaching your children morality that is your option you can teach your children as you will but do liberals have the right to force their egalitarian liberalism down the throats of an entire nation?

You're putting words into my mouth - I don't want conservatives teaching my child morality, and I have absolutely no intention of teaching your children morality. I certainly wouldn't want anyone else pissed off at me because I taught their 8 year old that what their parents told them is wrong. I've dealt with this already when my five year old came home to tell me he's going to Hell because he's not a Christian - he heard this (among other things) from students as well as teachers. That is not their job nor is it their place.

As to Cindy appealing only to Christian propaganda it is a documented fact that the majority of sexual predators are addicted to porn.

I would say that there are far more people that view pornography that are *not* criminals. You could say that most criminals have a history of Christianity, that does not mean that Christians are criminals.

A lot of the "propaganda" cited by Christian sources comes from the U.S. Department of Justice. Ask a battered wife whose husband is addicted to violent porn why she would like to see it banned and then maybe you will understand why some people (not all of whom are Christians) wage war against the porn industry.

Waging a war against criminals is not in question. Waging a war against something that is not a crime, however, is. Because most criminals smoke I suppose you want to make smoking against the law? What about booze? Most criminals drink, I suspect. IMO this is almost as ridiculous as the ancient claims that you could tell a criminal by the size of their head and the spacing of their eyes

[Aineo]

Roknrol, have you ever studied the sociology behind the fall of empires? It usually comes after the moral fiber of the empire fails.

Really? From what I've read the fall of most empires is because they pissed off too many people and stretched their defense (read military) too thin. If you forcibly take over someone's country, they will try to get it back - that's just plain common sense. If you're military is not strong enough in that particular country, you will lose it - just as Poland during WWI and WWII.

If you took the time to read what I posted with understanding (and some real research) one of the reasons political and military regimes fall is because the moral fiber of that regime declines. The Roman Empire is a good example. As a Republic Rome conquered and although Rome continued to conquer under the imperial rule of the Caesar's who appealed to the baser qualities of human nature to maintain their popularity with the masses the despotism and immorality of the average Roman citizen was a major contribution to the decline in the political and military arenas because they "pissed" off those who were being oppressed by the political and military elite.

Appealing to your personal attitudes and use of porn is anecdotal. So you don't want conservatives teaching your children morality that is your option you can teach your children as you will but do liberals have the right to force their egalitarian liberalism down the throats of an entire nation?

You're putting words into my mouth - I don't want conservatives teaching my child morality, and I have absolutely no intention of teaching your children morality. I certainly wouldn't want anyone else pissed off at me because I taught their 8 year old that what their parents told them is wrong. I've dealt with this already when my five year old came home to tell me he's going to Hell because he's not a Christian - he heard this (among other things) from students as well as teachers. That is not their job nor is it their place.[/quote]I agree, but it is not the place of public education to take the other extreme. Christian or religious bias does not belong in our public school system but then neither does anti-Christian or anti-religious bias. The 1st Amendment prohibits the "establishment or prohibition" of religion. This same amendment guarantees free speach, which is used to protect the porn business and (strangely enough) silences the moral stance of religion, which in effect prohibits the free exercise of religion and free speach.

As to Cindy appealing only to Christian propaganda it is a documented fact that the majority of sexual predators are addicted to porn.

I would say that there are far more people that view pornography that are *not* criminals. You could say that most criminals have a history of Christianity, that does not mean that Christians are criminals.

A lot of the "propaganda" cited by Christian sources comes from the U.S. Department of Justice. Ask a battered wife whose husband is addicted to violent porn why she would like to see it banned and then maybe you will understand why some people (not all of whom are Christians) wage war against the porn industry.

Waging a war against criminals is not in question. Waging a war against something that is not a crime, however, is. Because most criminals smoke I suppose you want to make smoking against the law? What about booze? Most criminals drink, I suspect. IMO this is almost as ridiculous as the ancient claims that you could tell a criminal by the size of their head and the spacing of their eyes

I find it interesting you choose alcohol and tobacco as examples of criminal activity since prohibition (a social experiment that failed) actually promoted criminal activity. And in case you have not noticed smokers are being marginalized in all areas of American culture. Why is smoking being marginalized under the law? The potential health risks to non-smokers, which is the same reason those who oppose porn are out to eliminate this industry. The abuse of alcohol is illegal since public intoxication, driving under the influence, and vehicular homocide are crimes, also smoking in non-designated areas is also a violation of the law. The anit-tobacco crowd has effectively limited smoking and in public buildings including restaurants and bars and is out to prohibit smoking in private automobiles and even in private homes where children can be exposed to second hand smoke.

What is telling about your rebuttal is your choice to argue from your andecdotal experiences and not from the strength of published studies.

[V-Agent]

Obeying the law is a value judgment every person makes on a daily basis. Do you ever exceed the speed limit? As to the harmful effects of pornography I think if you really researched the subject you will find a plethora of evidence that when anyone (teen or adult) is obssessed with porn it is damaging to their ability to interact socially and can lead to and/or contribute to antisocial behavior.

I researched sexual behaviour including pornography in relation to social interaction and environmental context quite a bit within my psychology degree.

I majored in it.

You mentioned obsession - that is a whole different area of conversation, namely in that anything as an obsession is harmful - including religious mania.

Now Geshtinnanna asked a valid question do you think you can respond to it? You see it is my experience that porn use by teens is no more beneficial than smoking weed in fact porn can get hormones raging and increase depression for those who have problems relating to others on a sexual basis. Do you have something besides anecdotal evidence to back up your claim?

I work in teenage councelling, and there is nothing anectodal about that, all that is anectodal here are moralistic value judgements and some vague references that "somewhere" it has been proven that Porn leads to problems.

OK, if that is the case, give me your sources please.

One thing that is beyond anectodal here is your reference to drugs - you'll have to formulate an appropriate argument linking the two for it to have any meaning.

[Aineo]

V-Agent, drawing conclusions using your work with teens is using anecdotal information to draw a conclusion. Now, do you have any studies to back up your assertions that are not anecdotal? The fact is most (if not all) superficial psychological studies are based on anecdotal information, which is the main problem with psychology as a whole.

[FHCindy]

I would say that there are far more people that view pornography that are *not* criminals. You could say that most criminals have a history of Christianity, that does not mean that Christians are criminals.

In my opinion viewing porn should be a crime. And many that do it ARE criminals, that just haven't been caught yet. Unfortunately many people call themselves Christian when they don't have a clue what it really means.

porn demeans both men and women, and causes the person viewing it to have a warped sense of reality.

[Geshtinnanna]

porn demeans both men and women, and causes the person viewing it to have a warped sense of reality.

I thought it made people have orgasms.

[Scolaí]

In my opinion viewing porn should be a crime. And many that do it ARE criminals, that just haven't been caught yet. Unfortunately many people call themselves Christian when they don't have a clue what it really means.

porn demeans both men and women, and causes the person viewing it to have a warped sense of reality.

In order for viewing porn to be a "crime", there must be a victim. Who is the victim when I view porn? I am sitting in my living room or bedroom with my wife watching an adult film; who is being victimized? The people in the film were not coerced into making it. My wife and I are not showing it to minors. We don't go hunting for people to sexually abuse after watching it. How in the world can you say something so innane as "viewing porn should be a crime"?

You are speaking in generalities. There is no valid proof for your assertions beyond your personal religious bias. Let's see:

You said - "In my opinion viewing porn should be a crime."
This is an opinion which is beyond the scope of validation. You cannot prove an opinion.

You said - And many that do it ARE criminals, that just haven't been caught yet.
So you have a statistical basis for this comment? As far as I know, my wife and I are not criminals - we pay our taxes, obey extant laws, and we recycle. Oh, and we watch adult films.

You said - Unfortunately many people call themselves Christian when they don't have a clue what it really means.
A faith-based assertion that is also outside of the scope of validation. Unless you are the God you worship, such a judgement call is outside of your rights to pass.

You said - porn demeans both men and women, and causes the person viewing it to have a warped sense of reality.
Again, I assume you have a statistical basis for this statement? The nature of the product (adult films) is in the mind of the viewer. My wife and I realize the fantastical nature of adult films and thus do not assume that they represent reality in any sense. Just because some people act out the scenes they view in an adult film doesn't mean all of us do. As a matter of fact (my wife reading over my shoulder says..) if you actually watched them they are often so ridiculously absurd that mistaking them for any semblance of reality could only take place in the mind of a child.

Which is likely the best reason to keep it out of their hands...

[V-Agent]

V-Agent, drawing conclusions using your work with teens is using anecdotal information to draw a conclusion.

Not so, once multiple cases are tallied together, the conclusions become empirical.

Now, do you have any studies to back up your assertions that are not anecdotal?

Indeed I do, as part of my studies research papers and thesis on this subject were required reading.
Obviously, you are looking for instantly available monographs online instead of research papers requiring research and correspondence to aquire.
A collection of online papers can be found here: http://libertus.net/censor/studies2.html
I believe it is now your turn to provide the references you are basing your argument on.

The fact is most (if not all) superficial psychological studies are based on anecdotal information, which is the main problem with psychology as a whole.

Totally erroneous and incompatible with the field of research you are attempting to discredit.
Psychology is based on empirical studies rigorously tested, debated and critiqued before passing from empirical analysis to accepted theory.
It is the scientific method.

Beware, too of using the word fact to justify a matter of belief, as this tends to open your argument to questions of validation.

[Aineo]

Totally erroneous and incompatible with the field of research you are attempting to discredit.
Psychology is based on empirical studies rigorously tested, debated and critiqued before passing from empirical analysis to accepted theory.
It is the scientific method.

"Psychology is based on empirical studies rigorously tested"? Who are you trying to kid? Would you care to list the "empirical studies tested, debated and critiqued" the APA used to remove homosexuality from the DSMIII?

As to pornography and its effects on men:
http://www.csun.edu/~psy453/porno_y.htm

I would also caution you of using a "science" dominated by anecdotal studies as the basis for generalizing what you want to believe.

[Geshtinnanna]

http://www.csun.edu/~psy453/porno_no.htm
thanks for the link Aineo. I plan to use it in my debate section on the Nin forum. It's very informative.

[V-Agent]

Totally erroneous and incompatible with the field of research you are attempting to discredit.
Psychology is based on empirical studies rigorously tested, debated and critiqued before passing from empirical analysis to accepted theory.
It is the scientific method.

"Psychology is based on empirical studies rigorously tested"? Who are you trying to kid?

I see, so you are saying that psychological theorems are not based on studies involving empirical statistics on group research?
That's a very tall claim indeed, and Freud, Jung, Maslow, etc were basing their theories on nothing more than anectodal ideas independent of any verification going on to this day?

Sounds to me the only person trying to kid anyone is yourself.

Wether or not you agree/disagree with psychological theory, the fact is it's a human science based on rigorous case studies and research.

Would you care to list the "empirical studies tested, debated and critiqued" the APA used to remove homosexuality from the DSMIII?

I would indeed: http://www.glsenco.org/Resources/organi ... atrica.htm
Key words: (qv): "For a mental condition to be considered a psychiatric disorder, it should either regularly cause emotional distress or regularly be associated with clinically significant impairment of social functioning".

The point is you don't agree with it, and that is known as an individual oppinion, which is your right, but it is irrespective of the scholarly debate generated during these proceedings and the right to disgaree on oppinion is inherent, while with science, application makes any such irrelevant.

As to pornography and its effects on men:
http://www.csun.edu/~psy453/porno_y.htm

Curious... you state that psychological research is anectodal and therefore irrelevant, but don't feel any compunction referring to it when useful to underline your stance.

I'll leave that to it's own merit.

Curiously, only a couple of the links are actually of research psychology origin - the rest are lectures given by para-professionals without empirical basis, and even computer related articles, though some are valid research outcomes.
Like any science, there are opposing results based on research, and the way a general concensus is reached is by establishing the results backed up by the majority of research, which so far has stated that non-obsessive and legal use of pornography is harmless.

I've raised the point of obsession before, and I notice that the valid research you quoted is centred on obsessive/illegal complusions, such as child pornography and violent content - which is harmful, but not the norm.

I would also caution you of using a "science" dominated by anecdotal studies as the basis for generalizing what you want to believe.

I caution you the same statement, though I would change "science" to "oppinion".

But let us leave this entertaining interchange for a moment, and let me raise two question:
1) Do you differentiate between obsessive use of pornography and non-obsessive, normal use.
2) Do you differentiate between illegal porn, such as violent/child/beastiality and legal, normal adult material.

It is in the differences between them that my argument is based - something you have so far confused.

[Aineo]

First of all you need to do some in depth research into both why the APA removed homosexuality from the DSMIII and the basis for reparative therapy. The APA decision was a socio/political decision that totally ignored over a thousand studies reported in the literature from 1936 onward that showed homosexuality met the standards for a "pathological condition" no different than depression, anxiety, fethishes and other paraphilias still listed as treated pathological conditions in the DSMIV.

The term "preparative" therapy was coined by Dr. Elizabeth Moberly after reviewing the available literature and theories that date back to Freud, Jung, and etc., therefore "preparative" therapy is a sound theory found in the history of psychoanalysis.

You see V-Agent I have dealt with this subject for about 22 years and have actually done the research, which you plainly have not. Now if you like other people who think psychology is the modern god to be worshipped are going to taut your theories then at least know what you are talking about.

Now you have used the term "empirical" to describe studies that suit your agenda, while at the same time referring to opinions based on observation and actual studies that empirically prove your position is wrong as "anecdotal" and this V-Agent is the main problem with psychology, the experts cannot agree and when a mental health expert challenges the status quo they are ignored for appealing to "empirical studies" that the liberals label a "conservative right conspiracy".

Now any study involving teens and pornography is in violation of Federal and State laws, which in themselves invalidate the credibility of such studies.

[nik]

In my opinion viewing porn should be a crime. And many that do it ARE criminals, that just haven't been caught yet. Unfortunately many people call themselves Christian when they don't have a clue what it really means.

porn demeans both men and women, and causes the person viewing it to have a warped sense of reality.

In order for viewing porn to be a "crime", there must be a victim. Who is the victim when I view porn? I am sitting in my living room or bedroom with my wife watching an adult film; who is being victimized? The people in the film were not coerced into making it. My wife and I are not showing it to minors. We don't go hunting for people to sexually abuse after watching it. How in the world can you say something so innane as "viewing porn should be a crime"?

You are speaking in generalities. There is no valid proof for your assertions beyond your personal religious bias. Let's see:

You said - "In my opinion viewing porn should be a crime."
This is an opinion which is beyond the scope of validation. You cannot prove an opinion.

You said - And many that do it ARE criminals, that just haven't been caught yet.
So you have a statistical basis for this comment? As far as I know, my wife and I are not criminals - we pay our taxes, obey extant laws, and we recycle. Oh, and we watch adult films.

You said - Unfortunately many people call themselves Christian when they don't have a clue what it really means.
A faith-based assertion that is also outside of the scope of validation. Unless you are the God you worship, such a judgement call is outside of your rights to pass.

You said - porn demeans both men and women, and causes the person viewing it to have a warped sense of reality.
Again, I assume you have a statistical basis for this statement? The nature of the product (adult films) is in the mind of the viewer. My wife and I realize the fantastical nature of adult films and thus do not assume that they represent reality in any sense. Just because some people act out the scenes they view in an adult film doesn't mean all of us do. As a matter of fact (my wife reading over my shoulder says..) if you actually watched them they are often so ridiculously absurd that mistaking them for any semblance of reality could only take place in the mind of a child.

Which is likely the best reason to keep it out of their hands...

Yeah dude Im sure God is pro-porn lol

It hurts society in an indirect, slow, methodical manner. Its not easy to spot the hurt cuased just by merely observing the immediate effects of a single person viewing porn just as its not easy to spot the effects of the vice of pride, at least not till its understood.

I think to understand why porn is bad it helps to understand how out of whack our sex drive has become.

[Scolaí]

Yeah dude Im sure God is pro-porn lol

And you'll point out exactly where I said this, I trust? Don't put such stupid words in my mouth.

Not that I would care, in any case, because I don't find the christian god all that worthy of being concerned with. The christian god is pro-mass murder, which is a good enough reason for me to refuse to acknowledge his worthiness.

[Prior]

I think to understand why porn is bad it helps to understand how out of whack our sex drive has become.

Actually, that is entirely the fault of society and its prudish leaders. It's similar to why most diets don't work. People naturally crave certain foods at certain times. There's nothing wrong with that; it's simply the body's way of getting certain nutrients that may be deficient. But when these cravings are suppressed, the urge builds up to the point where the dieter loses control and binges.

Humans are sex crazed. That's why women are fertile all year round. After all, there's no point in being fertile all the time if there's no drive to take advantage of that fertility. But people are told from a young age that "sex=t3h Bad™," they are left suppressing their desire to have sex. Naturally, porn was created as a way to satisfy those desires.

—Hallowed are the Ori.

[OriginOfSin]

the book of revelations scares the living f**k out of me, it's like the dark side of the bible. Is hell really a lake of fire where u just burn and burn and burn?

I remember a few days ago, i let the warm tap run, and put my hand under it for about a quarter of a second and it was sooo painful, i couldnt even count to 1 holding my hand under it. What happens in hell?

[OriginOfSin]

Yeah dude Im sure God is pro-porn lol

And you'll point out exactly where I said this, I trust? Don't put such stupid words in my mouth.

Not that I would care, in any case, because I don't find the christian god all that worthy of being concerned with. The christian god is pro-mass murder, which is a good enough reason for me to refuse to acknowledge his worthiness.

(Sorry for double post)

This is a christian forum right? i think so anyway, so why are you criticising (spelling) the christian god?

[Aineo]

Razor, our membership is not restricted to Christians.

In order to understand Revelation you need a basic understanding of OT end time prophecy since Revelation fleshes out what is prophesied in the OT. As to the lake of fire and eternal punishment of the unregenerate there are two schools of thought on this topic. You need to study the Bible and make up your own mind.

[OriginOfSin]

I get the idea porn is bad now, but i don't think it's neccessary for this guy to hate it that bad, i mean if you want to write a novel on it be my guest, but is it only bad for people who watch it? what about people who do it, i'm sure girls enjoy the sex, purely cos it is sex, and getting paid heaps of cash for being in porn movs, so yhey obviously love it, and make a living of it. but im neither a girl or in a porn mov so i'm just asking. Anyway i've given porn up now.

[Aineo]

FHCindy is a woman whose husband abused pornography as well as sexually abused his own children.

[OriginOfSin]

FHCindy is a woman whose husband abused pornography as well as sexually abused his own children.

O_O ooooooooh.

[Myceena]

Pornography is very addicting. It's very scary, too. Young people engaged in acts... that kind of pornography is sickening. But, once you watch porn for a few times, it's hard to get off it. Ask my friend. He knows. He watches porn constantly. I try to steer clear of it, but it's hard. In my opinion, there is no point to pornography.

[tuppence]

Interesting thread. So many who think morality is something they can decide for themselves. I'm sorry, but that is only opinion, not morality. The very existence of morality -- regardless for the moment of what you may feel is or is not moral -- indicates it is imposed upon us from outside the human race. If you look above, you will find many arguments as to what is or is not moral, but no arguments about the fact that morality exists.

It not only exists, it is something we all appeal to as something objective -- outside of ourselves.

It is WHAT is moral or immoral that we fight about, not whether morality exists. And that is a telling point. If we know morality exists, and we do, we really ought to look at where it comes from.

And, Christian or not, religious or not, there is no other option than that morality is imposed upon us by our Creator and that He has defined what is moral and what is not.

Pornography in any form is immoral. Enjoyment of it is no criteria, by the way. Immoral behavior can often be quite enjoyable in the short term, or it wouldn't have so many defenders!

But pornography is immoral because it does not keep the marriage bed holy. "Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." Hebrews 13:4

Pornography is the devil's tool. Let me explain that one, please.

In the Old Testament, we find a number of 'pictures' of spiritual truths. Egypt is considered a 'type' for sin. Moses and Joseph both are considered 'types' of Christ. The Promised Land is a 'type' of the New Creation, etc. Jesus Himself used many pictures of commonly known items, such as weeds, seeds, pearls, trees to explain spiritual truths. I think you will find, if you look, that everything in the physical world is actually some kind of limited picture of a spiritual truth.

When a person asks Jesus to take over his or her life, to 'come into my heart' or whatever phrase is used, then the person becomes born again and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit: "And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." (Romans 8:9)

There is only one physical picture of what happens when a person accept Christ as Lord and Savior -- and that is sex. Christ comes into a person's life and a new life is born in that person. Thus, sex may be seen as one of the holiest pictures God has given us. It is something to be cherished within the marriage relationship. Paul defines the church as Christ's bride, so we again have the indication of a very intimate relationship being pictured.

With only this picture to help explain a spiritual truth of supreme importance, no wonder Satan will do everything in his power and imagination to distort it. Whether it is the homosexual life, pornography, adultery, fornication, or any other form of sex which is not within the marriage relationship -- whether 'consensual' or not makes no difference -- it is immoral. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" covers every sexual relationship outside of marriage. And Jesus warned that simply looking at a woman with lust was adulterous. Pornography is nothing if not encouraging folks to look at others with lust!

It involves images you can never remove from your mind. It is a permanent stain in your brain unless God Himself miraculously removes it, which He can do and has done for some.

But make no mistake -- pornography is directly and specificially in rebellion against God and His commands -- which, by the way, were given to us for our own good.

[OriginOfSin]

Young people engaged in acts... that kind of pornography is sickening.

I think that depends on your age. For example for me to watch 15 year old girls in porn vids (which i have done in the past) is ok seeing as im 15. But for someone who is 40 to watch that it's perverted. My 2 pence again lol

[tuppence]

OriginOfSin, you are choosing to decide for yourself that something that is not sin for you is sin for someone else. How can you figure that your personal tastes define morality?

[RomeSweetHome]

FHCindy, are you a Moderator in another Forum? I have seen that avatar somewhere before.