Which Sabbath

[Endurance]

I found this article interesting for those who insist on Sunday as the Sabbath.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/harve ... abbath.htm

With Love,

[beads]

Just a note.... I didn't actually read the article.

I'm curious as to who out there does think Sunday is the Sabbath?

I've always regarded Saturday as the Sabbath, however I go to church and worship on Sunday because Sunday is the Lord's Day, a day of celebrating the resurrection. This tradition of worshipping on the first day of the week is seem many times throughout Acts, which is a guideline for how the new testament church should be conducting itself.

Why would we want to remain under the law of the Sabbath, when we can celebrate the resurrection of our Lord every week on Sunday?

[Alpha]

I try to keep the Sabbath by resting and not seeking my own pleasure. But I go to church on Sunday. The thing is, when it comes to contraversal passages in the Bible, we might be sinning ignorantly. We might be sinning by not keeping the Sabbath. But the Lord will forgive you if you sin ignorantly and He alone knows your heart. Just make sure your conscience is clear on the matter. If your thoughts are accusing you and you act otherwise, it is sin against you.

[Endurance]

Alpha-

I'm glad to hear that you honor the Sabbath. I am at peace with which day is the Lord's friend.

beads-

Why? Simple, read the scripture and see what day God chose. And ask, who should I obey? Maybe looking into when God ordained the Sabbath and ask was it part of the Law or before it.... you should read the article as well. Why make a comment regarding something you have not even read? What would that make your comment without having any knowledge of what was spoken?

With Love,

[beads]

I didn't read the article because, in a quick skim, I didn't see where it would have addressed my question. I want to know if there are people out there who think that the actual day that is designated as the Sabbath has changed from Saturday to Sunday, not whether it's right to worship on Saturday as opposed to Sunday. I still believe that the Sabbath is Saturday, even though I worship on Sunday. Are there any out there who believe that the Sabbath is Sunday, not Saturday?

I did see one quote in the article that raised a question in my mind.....

If I had to "play it safe" with God, forced to make a choice as to whether to keep Sunday or Saturday as the day of rest, there is not a doubt in my mind which day I would keep...the Sabbath.

What are we talking about here? Rest or Worship? I worship on Sunday (that is to say, I go to church on Sunday.... I try to worship ever day). But I still rest on Saturday. Am I wrong in your mind because I go to church on Sunday?

How do you feel about how Jesus treated the Sabbath? He did alot of work on the Sabbath, and He made alot of enemies because of it. Was He wrong?

What is your feeling about this verse:

Mark 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

It seems to me that Jesus was more concerned with the holiness of His creature (man) than the holiness of His day.

[Aineo]

Endurance, did you read the whole article? If you did then you would have notice the author quoted:

Matthew 5:17-20

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. NAS

The law includes the dietary laws and a plethora of other laws that do not apply to the New Covenant. The author has also ignored:

Hebrews 7:11-17

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is witnessed of Him,

"Thou art a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."
NAS

Now if someone chooses to observe the Sabbath, which is from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday that is fine, however it is not a sin or a rejection of God's truth to observe Sunday as a day of worship. This is especially true since the Sabbath was instituted as a day of rest not a day of worship.

[Alpha]

So I guess the question should be, is it a sin not to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest ?

[Endurance]

I believe they have a contact us link on their site. Feel free to address your concerns to them. I believe they'll respond to you. You won't get a secretary or something.

With Love,

[Aineo]

I believe they have a contact us link on their site. Feel free to address your concerns to them. I believe they'll respond to you. You won't get a secretary or something.

With Love,

That site is one woman's opinion and interpretation. So why should we contact her when we have the Bible to depend on? If you are going to keep every Sabbath found in the Bible then you have the Passover Sabbath, which I don't see any modern day Christian saying we should keep.

Also:

Acts 15:28-29

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell. " NAS

This is what the Council of Jerusalem determined when Jews who had accepted Jesus as their Savior insisted gentiles be circumcised, which is also part of the law.

Colossians 2:16-19

16 Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God. NAS

[Endurance]

What are you talking about? A woman did not put that site together friend... take the time out to know what you are talking about before you jump the gun.

Now, if you want to contact them or rebutt what you feel is false, then do so. Maybe you or they may learn something. Sure you have the courage to say what you wish and fight of "spirits of error" on your board. If you think they are wrong about somethings, it's only right to address you concerns. You may find out that you didn't understand as much as you thought about their thoughts.

Can I ask you how much credibility should I give your opinion on it, when you are not even aware that it is a different web-site then "knowing christ"? I mean you'd think that a person who reads or listens to something and rebutts would at least know what they're talking about. That web-site was made by two men and not a woman. Take your time when reading things friend, you'll understand more that way...

With Love,

[Aineo]

The only mistake I made was getting the author's gender wrong. The site you linked to is a collection of personal testimonies, poems, and personal interpretations of Scripture.

Since you posted a link to this site and feel it has value then why don't you defend the position of the author?

As to putting credibility in my opinion, since my opinion is based on a full study of Scripture and not just one or two verses backed up by a personal revelation, it is not my credibility that is in question it is the Bible that you are calling into question.

[Alpha]

Aineo, in Colossians 2:16-19 when it mentions "sabbath" could it be referring to the monthly and yearly sabbaths and not the 7th day sabbath? I mean, the 7th day sabbath is a part of the 10 commandments. Not judging anyone, just want an answer.

[Aineo]

The Ten Commandments are part of the law and as such are what Paul calls our "tutor" that leads us to Christ. So lets put the Ten Commandments in perspective:

Matthew 22:36-40
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." NAS

As you posted Jesus said "the sabbath was created for men, men were not created for the sabbath."

As to your question, since Paul was addressing the attempt by Judaizers to enforce all ceremonial commands found in the Torah I believe Paul is addressing the ceremonial as well as the weekly Sabbaths. We are free of the restrictions of the law.

[Aineo]

One last thought:

Exodus 31:16-17
16'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.' 17 "It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed." NAS

Gentiles are not the sons of Israel, we are heirs with Christ as adopted sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:16-22
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
NAS

[Endurance]

Aineo, in Colossians 2:16-19 when it mentions "sabbath" could it be referring to the monthly and yearly sabbaths and not the 7th day sabbath? I mean, the 7th day sabbath is a part of the 10 commandments. Not judging anyone, just want an answer.

Amen...

Aineo-

Address the author, I'm sure they'll openly accept your questions...

With Love

[Aineo]

Tell me Endurance have you contacted the authors of sites that oppose the position that Christians have to observe the Sabbath?

[Endurance]

:D Tell me Endurance have you contacted the authors of sites that oppose the position that Christians have to observe the Sabbath?

I've talked with ministers about it, yes. Anyone that brings up the subject I talk too. But I have not been to a site where they talk about it talk in support of Sunday worship. I have been to site where I tried to contact the people, which turned out to be a dead end street. The last person I tried with was Creflo Dollar's site. But on that note, I'm not on religious sites that much. I've ran across a few by chance and when I've read others, I didn't notice a Sabbath topic. If I could contact the direct person I would, but they usually hide behind secretaries and the likes. I don't think you'll run into that problem with those guys.

With Love,

[Aineo]

If you have not been to a site that in support of Sunday worship then maybe you should. In the Ten Commandments the Sabbath was not established as a "day of worship" but as "a day of rest". The priests who served in the Temple worshipped God daily and if you take the time to study the NT you will not find a specific day we are told to worship God. So if your concern is violating the Sabbath then don't work from sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday.

On the other hand if you want to put yourself under the Torah then:

Leviticus 23:1-8
23:1 The LORD spoke again to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the sons of Israel, and say to them, 'The Lord's appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations-- My appointed times are these: 3'For six days work may be done; but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.

4'These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. 5'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. 6'Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7'On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work. 8'But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.' " NAS

Now you can advocate a legalistic view all you want but the one person who did not observe all the Sabbath rules established by the rabbi's was Jesus:

SABBATH

3. Jesus and the Sabbath: Apart from His claim to be the Messiah, there is no subject on which Our Lord came into such sharp conflict with the religious leaders of the Jews as in the matter of Sabbath observance. He set Himself squarely against the current rabbinic restrictions as contrary to the spirit of the original law of the Sabbath. The rabbis seemed to think that the Sabbath was an end in itself, an institution to which the pious Israelite must subject all his personal interests; in other words, that man was made for the Sabbath: man might suffer hardship, but the institution must be preserved inviolate. Jesus, on the contrary, taught that the Sabbath was made for man's benefit. If there should arise a conflict between man's needs and the letter of the Law, man's higher interests and needs must take precedence over the law of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-14; Mark 2:23-3:6; Luke 6:1-11; also John 5:1-18; Luke 13:10-17; 14:1-6). There is no reason to think that Jesus meant to discredit the Sabbath as an institution. It was His custom to attend worship in the synagogue on the Sabbath (Luke 4:16). The humane element in the rest day at the end of every week must have appealed to His sympathetic nature. It was the one precept of the Decalogue that was predominantly ceremonial, though it had distinct sociological and moral value. As an institution for the benefit of toiling men and animals, Jesus held the Sabbath in high regard. As the Messiah, He was not subject to its restrictions; He could at any moment assert His lordship over the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). The institution was not on a par with the great moral precepts, which are unchangeable. It is worthy of note that, while Jesus pushed the moral precepts of the Decalogue into the inner realm of thought and desire, thus making the requirement more difficult and the law more exacting, He fought for a more liberal and lenient interpretation of the law of the Sabbath. Rigorous sabbatarians must look elsewhere for a champion of their views.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

I don't think you can find a better model than Jesus do you?

[Endurance]

Aineo- please feel free to address your concerns to the people of the site...

With Love,

[Aineo]

Aineo- please feel free to address your concerns to the people of the site...

With Love,

You posted the site. If you are not prepared to defend that site why post it? You see Endurance I am not discussing this issue with those who published the site.

[Endurance]

Aineo- please feel free to address your concerns to the people of the site...

With Love,

You posted the site. If you are not prepared to defend that site why post it? You see Endurance I am not discussing this issue with those who published the site.

Why post it? I told you in the initial post.

I found this article interesting for those who insist on Sunday as the Sabbath.

That is the reason I posted it, because I found it interesting and not as though I was trying to start an argumet about it and attempt to defend and explain the auhtor's words. I don't try to assume I know the intent of everything a person says because that tends to bring about ignorant statement. I wanted to see what people had to say for and against it. Not to answer questions in an attempt to defend their article. If you want their article defended, address them. Don't you think it would be wiser to hear an explanation from the soucre rather than someone who finds the argument interesting? Or is it fear because you feel inadequate to address the auther? If you want to know how I feel about something, then ask me that, but do not tell me I need to defend someone else's words. If I were led to do so, that would be something else, but this has not been the case with this...

[Aineo]

Sunday is not the Sabbath, Sunday is the day that most Christians set aside to worship the Lord. Sunday is the first day of the week on every calendar I have seen.

In the Ten Commandments the Sabbath is called a day of rest; in Leviticus the Sabbath is a holy convocation for the Jews. Now the issue seems to be are we under the Law, and the answer is no.

There are a plethora of interesting sites on the Internet but that does not mean those interesting sites are Biblically based or Biblically sound. If I took the time to correspond with every author of every Internet site that posts an opinon that contradicts Scripture I would not have time to live a productive life. I am not going to contact the author of the site you posted.

[Endurance]

In the Ten Commandments the Sabbath is called a day of rest; in Leviticus the Sabbath is a holy convocation for the Jews. Now the issue seems to be are we under the Law, and the answer is no.

Sorry, but the Sabbath was ordained before the law. I have two questions for you Aineo. Where is the first mention of the Sabbath and how it is holy? Was it given with the law, or before it? The issue is not whether we are under the law at all.

Aineo, may I ask what do you think Christ meant when he said this:

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

To me this does not say that the Sabbath is for the Jews only. But rather until heaven and earth pass away, that nothing from the law shall be changed. Do only the Jews celebrate Him as creator? Now if the Sabbath is the day he consecrated as holy because he rested from his works on it, shouldn't those who honor him as creator honor the day He made holy in reverence of Him creating the world?

Matt 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Aineo, if you don't respond to anything else, please respond to this: Christ says whosoever shall break the least commandment and teach others is the least. Now the Sabbath is a commandment of God that preceeded the law right? Are you one that breaks this and teaches others to do so or are you one who keeps it and teaches others to?

There are a plethora of interesting sites on the Internet but that does not mean those interesting sites are Biblically based or Biblically sound. If I took the time to correspond with every author of every Internet site that posts an opinon that contradicts Scripture I would not have time to live a productive life. I am not going to contact the author of the site you posted.

I cannot argue with that because you've made an excellent point. The only thing I ask is that you respond to my words then and not theirs because anything that they expressed and you disagree with should be addressed to them.

With Love,

[Endurance]

So I guess the question should be, is it a sin not to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest ?

Alpha- please do forgive me for not being prompt in responding. God is over timing though and I'm sure that my response is in His timing and not my own.

I agree that the Sabbath is a day of rest. As far as sunday worship goes. Keep in mind this in not a rebuttal, just me going on to another point to consider. I have no day of worship. Are we not called to worship in spirit and truth? Everyday we are to worship in spirit and truth, so in my opinion, there is no such thing as a day of worship because the day of worship for those who worship in spirit and truth is everyday. So Sunday is nothing but the first day of the week, and the day that our Saviour rose from the dead (note that He was crucified Friday, rested on the Sabbath, and rose on the first day). Yet, the Sabbath is our Holy day of rest when we reflect on our creator and by doing so (honoring the Sabbath), we honor Him as the Creator.

With Love,
Snipe

[Aineo]

In the Ten Commandments the Sabbath is called a day of rest; in Leviticus the Sabbath is a holy convocation for the Jews. Now the issue seems to be are we under the Law, and the answer is no.

Sorry, but the Sabbath was ordained before the law. I have two questions for you Aineo. Where is the first mention of the Sabbath and how it is holy? Was it given with the law, or before it? The issue is not whether we are under the law at all.

In Genesis we read:

Genesis 2:1-3
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 And by the seventh day God completed His work which He had done; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. NAS

Here again God sanctified the 7th day since on the 7th day He rested from His work of creation. The Law states in Leviticus that the 7th day is a holy convocation for the Jews. Worshipping on the Sabbath is not mandated for gentiles.

Aineo, may I ask what do you think Christ meant when he said this:

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

To me this does not say that the Sabbath is for the Jews only. But rather until heaven and earth pass away, that nothing from the law shall be changed. Do only the Jews celebrate Him as creator? Now if the Sabbath is the day he consecrated as holy because he rested from his works on it, shouldn't those who honor him as creator honor the day He made holy in reverence of Him creating the world?

I will respond with a question. Do you keep the dietary laws, and if not why not? God made the Law and God can change the Law as He did in Acts. And if you accept Paul's epistles as inspired then study Romans for your answer.

Matt 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Aineo, if you don't respond to anything else, please respond to this: Christ says whosoever shall break the least commandment and teach others is the least. Now the Sabbath is a commandment of God that preceeded the law right? Are you one that breaks this and teaches others to do so or are you one who keeps it and teaches others to?

The Sabbath was sanctified as a day of rest, as to teaching others to annul the Law then what about the Apostles who not only taught the Law did not apply to gentiles they broke the dietary laws, which as I posted earlier were annulled by God Himself. And what about circumcision? Circumcision preceded the law, now read Acts 15 and the pronouncement of the Council of Jerusalem. Have you studied Hebrews?

Hebrews 7:11-21

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is witnessed of Him,

"Thou art a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek."

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"The Lord has sworn
And will not change His mind,
'Thou art a priest forever'");
NAS

Now answer a question for me, what did Jesus mean when He told the Pharisees:

Mark 2:27-28
27 And He was saying to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 "Consequently, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
NAS

[Endurance]

Are you one that breaks this and teaches others to do so or are you one who keeps it and teaches others to?

would you mind answering this. If you walk around the issue again. I will accpet that as you confessing that you are one who breaks it and teaches others to do so...

With Love,

[Endurance]

Here again God sanctified the 7th day since on the 7th day He rested from His work of creation. The Law states in Leviticus that the 7th day is a holy convocation for the Jews. Worshipping on the Sabbath is not mandated for gentiles.

So far you have answered one of my question. You qouted God sanctifying it in Genesis which was before the law and Abraham.

Galatians 3:17 - And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

And likewise I say, what God ordained before the law cannot be made of no effect by the craftiness of men. Show me one verse that says we are not to honor the Sabbath.

I will respond with a question. Do you keep the dietary laws, and if not why not? God made the Law and God can change the Law as He did in Acts. And if you accept Paul's epistles as inspired then study Romans for your answer.

Yes, I do not eat what was forbidden, though there are times I make exceptions. For example, we are told to eat what is placed before us if we are invited to a occasion of some sort. In these situations, I will eat what is set before me, not to offend the host. Also, what comes from out the man defiles him and not what goes into him. Yet and still, God told us not to eat certain things for our own good. If you wish to know why I do, it is because Christ said, those who love me, keep my commandments. And if Christ is God, then the commandments given to the Isrealites are His commandments as well.

Let me ask you something. Christ says that all of the law and prophets hang on two, love God and love thy neighbor. The Sabbath is one of God's commandments right? So if all the law and prophets hang on those two, loving God (shown by keeping His commandments as He says) and loving neighbor as self, then the Sabbath is held by love too because it is part of the law and prophets right?

Note: you contradict God by saying He changed the law. Provide your proof and explain how your proof says that. Christ said nothing will be changed until all is fulfilled, right? So for you to say that God has changed the law, contradicts Christ words in Matt qouted above. You may argue that Christ fulfilled the law, but I ask you

Daniel 7:27 - And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Has this been fulfilled? If it has not been fulfilled, then not one jot has changed from the law. To say that it has changed, is calling Christ words in Matt false.

The Sabbath was sanctified as a day of rest, as to teaching others to annul the Law then what about the Apostles who not only taught the Law did not apply to gentiles they broke the dietary laws, which as I posted earlier were annulled by God Himself. And what about circumcision? Circumcision preceded the law, now read Acts 15 and the pronouncement of the Council of Jerusalem. Have you studied Hebrews?

This in no way answers the question as to whether or not you keep the Sabbath or not and whether you teach others to keep it or not. So if you don't mind, please tell us if you keep and teach others to keep it. Or break it and teach others to, which is contrary to what Christ teaches in Matt 5:19

Now answer a question for me, what did Jesus mean when He told the Pharisees:Quote:
Mark 2:27-28
27 And He was saying to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 "Consequently, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
NAS

Simple, He is saying that the Sabbath was made for man and not the other way around. Now (indicating with that being said), Did God not rest from His works on the seventh day? And did not God bless it because of that? God made a day for man to rest just as He did. Do you disagree?

Also, you qouted Hebrew but said nothing about it. What was your purpose of qouting it and explain how it says what you assume it to...

With Love,

[Aineo]

Acts 10:9-16
9 And on the next day, as they were on their way, and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10 And he became hungry, and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11 and he beheld the sky opened up, and a certain object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, "Arise, Peter, kill and eat!" 14 But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." 15 And again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." 16 And this happened three times; and immediately the object was taken up into the sky. NAS

The dietary laws have been annuled by God Himself. Now take another look at Galatians:

Galatians 3:17 - And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Jesus was the last prophet of the OT and taught as such before His resurrection when He became the first prophet of the NT, or the New Covenant "that was confirmed before of God in Christ". Hebrews states that with a change in priesthood there is of necessity a change in the Law, and the New Covenant High Priest is Jesus the Christ, a member of the tribe of Judah not the tribe of Levi.

I brought up the dietary laws as an example of the fact we are no longer under the law, but if you insist that we are do you mix animal and dairy on the same set of dishes, the law requires every Hebrew household keep two sets so they do not break that law. Do you keep the Passover? The law requires two holy convocations (Sabbaths) during the Passover celebration, which includes the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Tell me Endurance have you read the 1st 5 books of the OT, which is the Torah or the Law? When was the last time you performed a sacrifice for the atonement of your sins? Have you read the laws concerning what sacrifice to make for each infraction of the Law?

Romans 13:1-7
13:1 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. NAS

Does your employer require you work on the Sabbath? You are under his authority if you get a paycheck. BTW, do you shop on Saturday or buy gas on Saturday? If you do then you are in effect supporting those who have to work on the Sabbath or loose their jobs, which makes you guilty of subverting the Sabbath. And if you want to apply this above Scripture only to Governments then:

Ephesians 6:5-9

5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; 6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7 With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. 9 And, masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. NAS

In our society slavery is no longer permitted, however your relationship to your employer is not much different between that of slave and master during your period of employment.

I notice you did not address circumcision, which preceded the law, is included in the law, and was the subject of the Council of Jerusalem:

Acts 15:1-5
15:1 And some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. 3 Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed, stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses." NAS

What was the decision made by the Council of Jerusalem in regard to circumcision and observing the Law of Moses?

Acts 15:22-29

22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas-- Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them,

"The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.

24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell. " NAS

Do you see keeping the Sabbath in the essentials laid out by the Holy Spirit?

[Endurance]

Aineo you have failed to address these things. If you don't mind, can you do that now. I don't have time at the moment to respond to your post, but I will as soon as I return. Even if you refuse to address these things.

Let me ask you something. Christ says that all of the law and prophets hang on two, love God and love thy neighbor. The Sabbath is one of God's commandments right? So if all the law and prophets hang on those two, loving God (shown by keeping His commandments as He says) and loving neighbor as self, then the Sabbath is held by love too because it is part of the law and prophets right?


tell us if you keep and teach others to keep it. Or break it and teach others to, which is contrary to what Christ teaches in Matt 5:19

If I may answer this, you are saying that you are one who breaks it and teaches otherwise correct? (silence is acceptance).

Did God not rest from His works on the seventh day? And did not God bless it because of that? God made a day for man to rest just as He did. Do you disagree?

I didn't intentionally skip over whatever you said/asked about circumcision, if you will respost it when you address these things, I will gladly respond, God willing. If you chose not to respond to these things, it is fine and I will respond to your comments anyway, but that would only show acceptance or an inablility to rebutt it.

Show me one verse that says we are not to honor the Sabbath.

If you cannot show the scripture saying it, don't say it...

[Aineo]

Endurance, apparently you have not taken the time necessary to read and understand my post. During His earthly ministry Jesus was teaching only the Jews. I did address the Law in my post, and if you are not making sacrifices to atone for your sins you are breaking the Law under the Old Covenant, and if you are teaching others they do not need to perform animal sacrifices you are teaching others to break the Law. Have you read the 1st 5 books of the Bible, which includes the Law as given to Moses. Are you keeping the letter of the Law, which is what you are proposing with keeping the Sabbath as a holy convocation.

Do I teach the inerrancy and total accuracy of the Bible, which was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes, and the Holy Spirit in Acts 15 did not include keeping the Sabbath as an essential for gentiles. Also if you accept the inerrancy of the Bible and have studied Romans and Hebrews all your questions can be anwered concerning the Law and the Old Covenant.

God changed the Law when He instituted the New Covenant with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, so to answer your question concerning the great commandment, following the precepts He gave through the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant is loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind.

Jeremiah 31:30-34

30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge. 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them, "declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
NAS

Hebrews 8
8:1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary, and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "See," He says, "that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain." 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
"Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant, And I did not care for them, says the Lord. 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of IsraelAfter those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds,And I will write them upon their hearts.And I will be their God, And they shall be My people. 11 "And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, And everyone his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all shall know Me, From the least to the greatest of them. 12 "For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And I will remember their sins no more."
13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
NAS

[Endurance]

Endurance, apparently you have not taken the time necessary to read and understand my post. During His earthly ministry Jesus was teaching only the Jews. I did address the Law in my post, and if you are not making sacrifices to atone for your sins you are breaking the Law under the Old Covenant, and if you are teaching others they do not need to perform animal sacrifices you are teaching others to break the Law. Have you read the 1st 5 books of the Bible, which includes the Law as given to Moses. Are you keeping the letter of the Law, which is what you are proposing with keeping the Sabbath as a holy convocation.

You say Jesus was only teaching the jews. Well why do you read His words to them? Is it not to be taught?

That is the problem, you are addressing the law and not my question. Did I ask you if you taught others to keep the law and if you kept it? NO, I did not. I asked if you kept the Sabbath or not and teach other so. So until you tell us whether or not you keep the Sabbath and wehter you teach others to keep it or not, you have not addressed my question.

I am not teaching others not to have sacrifices for all things are purged with blood. Christ is our sacrifice (notice the law has not changed, the sacrifice has been made to appease God).

Does Paul not state that the Law is holy and good. The law teaches us what sin is. The law teaches us what is right before the sight of God. So while we are not under the law, we still abide by it for those who love Him keep His commandments, right? IF teh law says do not steal, then stealing is sin, correct? Should I sin b/c I'm not under the law? Or should I do what pleases my Father by not sinning against him. If the law says honor the Sabbath, then not honoring it is sin right? So should I continue in sin or do what is right?

Do I teach the inerrancy and total accuracy of the Bible, which was inspired by the Holy Spirit? Yes, and the Holy Spirit in Acts 15 did not include keeping the Sabbath as an essential for gentiles. Also if you accept the inerrancy of the Bible and have studied Romans and Hebrews all your questions can be anwered concerning the Law and the Old Covenant.

Yes I have studied them and according to Paul the law has not been done away with, but rather established (Rom 3:31). The OT is our foundation. How do you suppose we deny our foundation. If the Law is established by us, then we should be manifestations of it. Do you agree?

God changed the Law when He instituted the New Covenant with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, so to answer your question concerning the great commandment, following the precepts He gave through the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant is loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind.

Aineo, God did not change the Law. God is the Law (His Word) and God does not change friend. Do you believe that God changes? We are told that the Word is God. Do you feel the the Law is not part of God's Word? I will address what you posted from acts in the next one when I respond to your previous post, please give me second.

You have still yet to address this issue

Christ says that all of the law and prophets hang on two, love God and love thy neighbor. The Sabbath is one of God's commandments right? So if all the law and prophets hang on those two, loving God (shown by keeping His commandments as He says) and loving neighbor as self, then the Sabbath is held by love too because it is part of the law and prophets right?

I will reiterate, that you have truly spoken on how you feel about the law, but you have said nothing to answer these questions...

[Endurance]

The dietary laws have been annuled by God Himself.

You claim that God changed dietary laws according to Acts 10:9-16, but you are in great error in assuming so. You interpret this to mean that God has changed things, right? Let's see how Peter interpret His vision.

Acts 10:28 - And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean

According to Peter, the vision was telling him not to call any man common or unclean. It had nothing to do with eating. SO Aineo, who is right, you or Peter?

Acts 10: 15 - And again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy."

Friend, be cautious of how you interpret the bible. Don't speculate as to what it means and say it as truth. let speculation be told as speculation and not as truth. This is a matter where scripture interprets itself, but you've given it your own meaning. Be careful of doing such things.

Jesus was the last prophet of the OT and taught as such before His resurrection when He became the first prophet of the NT, or the New Covenant [b]"that was confirmed before of God in Christ". Hebrews states that with a change in priesthood there is of necessity a change in the Law, and the New Covenant High Priest is Jesus the Christ, a member of the tribe of Judah not the tribe of Levi. [/b]

Again, you have given the bible your own meaning instead of accepting what it says. You say Jesus was the last prophet of the OT, but what does Christ say

Luke 16:16 - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

This says that John was the last prophet of the OT, and Christ is the first of the new. Which is indicated by Him saying since that time, the kingdom of God is preached. Did He not make this claim while still being alive? So it was not after the resurrection, but after John, when He began. Please stop giving scripture your meaning for it and accept His.

Again I say, like the author of Hebrews has stated. The Sabbath which was ordained centuries before the promise made to Abraham is not disannulled by it, because it was ordained before the promise. Just as the law, given centuries after the promise does not disannul the promise.

I brought up the dietary laws as an example of the fact we are no longer under the law, but if you insist that we are do you mix animal and dairy on the same set of dishes, the law requires every Hebrew household keep two sets so they do not break that law. Do you keep the Passover? The law requires two holy convocations (Sabbaths) during the Passover celebration, which includes the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Tell me Endurance have you read the 1st 5 books of the OT, which is the Torah or the Law? When was the last time you performed a sacrifice for the atonement of your sins? Have you read the laws concerning what sacrifice to make for each infraction of the Law?

Again you have given the scripture your own meaning. THe scripture does not say don't mix meat (animal) and dairy (for that matter I don't know anyone who drinks milk with steaks). It says, don't boil a goat in it's mothers milk. It does not say don't mix dairy and animal.

Deuteronomy 14:21 - Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Aineo, you see time and time again you give scripture your own meaning, when the truth is that scripture does not say what you preach as truth.

The law does not require the Hebrews to keep two separate sets. That is Talmudic (traditions of men) and not Torah. If you disagree please cite the scripture that says it.

Friend, if I have told you I do obey the dietary laws, then accept my yes as yes and my no as no. I have said yes, so there is no need to go into each commandment and ask me if I do it. All that I am aware of, I do as best I can.

Yes, I have read the Torah and Prophets, and Christ is my sacrifice.

Does your employer require you work on the Sabbath? You are under his authority if you get a paycheck. BTW, do you shop on Saturday or buy gas on Saturday? If you do then you are in effect supporting those who have to work on the Sabbath or loose their jobs, which makes you guilty of subverting the Sabbath. And if you want to apply this above Scripture only to Governments then

I have been unable to attain many jobs due to my honoring the Sabbath. I had to accept a job at CVS for a while because no other place would hire me due to this. Yes we are to obey those in rule, but that is only to the extent that we are not disobeying God to obey them. I have violated the Sabbath at times, yes. But if I commit adultery once, should I keep doing it because I have done it once?

What was the decision made by the Council of Jerusalem in regard to circumcision and observing the Law of Moses?

This is a beautiful question indeed. Now let's address the matter. God in no way changed the law. But the focus was shifted from the letter
(or physical) to the inner (or spiritual). To grasp what I am about to say, you have to understand that somethings were a foreshadowing of things to come such as the sacrificial system and certain rituals, and others were not, such as thou shalt not kill. Circumcision one that is a foreshadowing of things to come or a sign of a spiritual truth, if I may refer to it in that way.

Romans 2:28 - For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Circumcision is not of the flesh, the outward does not make one a Jew, as Paul is pointing out. What of the law and the prophets, do they agree?

Deuteronomy 10:16 - Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deuteronomy 30:6 - And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Moses, who gave the law seems to agree with Paul. There has been no change made to the law. Christ came to reveal (manifest) God (the Law or His Word). And likewise, we are established upon His Law

Now as far as Acts 15 goes and what "you" call the essentials. I cannot qoute the whole chapter, but hopefully this will suffice...

Acts 15:21 - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Now they were talking about what to say to the gentile believer right? Let's keep things in context here.

Acts 15: 19-20 - Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

You see, in order not to be overbearing, they just spoke of the most serious matters because (verse 21 above) they had access to what Moses taught in the synagogues every SABBATH. So there was no need to express everything b/c they had teaching on the Law every week.

Now, if you notice, I'm qouting you and responding to what you say. All I ask is that you respond to my words as well. If I ask about the Sabbath, please repond to that question. Going off into what you feel about the law does not address what is being asked...

With Love,

[Aineo]

Do I teach others to keep the Sabbath? Endurance I have answered that question with Scripture and if you refuse to read with understanding that is your problem. You quoted Paul from Roman’s but you did not take this into account:

Galatians 3:24-29
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. NAS

We are Abraham’s offspring and Abraham preceded the Law by 450 years.

The Ten Commandments are part of the Law and according you we should be obeying the Law if we love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. So are you keeping the whole Law or are you simply hung up on the Sabbath? As to the Law and sacrifices, by accepting that Jesus is the sacrifice for our sins you accept the Law has changed since the Law requires the sacrifice of goats, bulls, lambs, birds, wine, bread, and etc. not a human being. Also if God did not change the Law can you explain Acts 9:10-16, Acts 15:22-39, Hebrews 8 & 9, and Exodus 20:4-6 with Jeremiah 31:29f and Ezekiel 18:2f? God made major changes when the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant.

However, if you want a direct answer to your question do I teach others to ignore the 4th Commandment, no. I leave that up to the individual, but I oppose a legalistic stance on this one part of the Law made by those who don't keep the whole Law, including the dietary laws, the laws concerning keeping the Passover, and the other celebrations commanded by God in the Law, and etc. You seem to want to ignore this:

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. NAS

If you don't keep the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread then you are guilty of murder and adultery since these festivals are included in the Law.

[Endurance]

Do I teach others to keep the Sabbath? Endurance I have answered that question with Scripture and if you refuse to read with understanding that is your problem. You quoted Paul from Roman’s but you did not take this into account:

From this answer I will accept that as, yes I break the Sabbath and teach others to (to be indifferent is to say that it's not important or that it doesn't have to be held). And to that I say, he who breaks the least commandment and teaches others to do so is the least and definitely in error. You have not answered my question, I've explained why. If you feel you answered the question, then please post the question and explain how what you've said answers the question. I have taken that scripture into account. The Law is surely our tutor and foundation. How does one expect to come to the master without first going throught the tutor?

The Ten Commandments are part of the Law and according you we should be obeying the Law if we love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. So are you keeping the whole Law or are you simply hung up on the Sabbath? As to the Law and sacrifices, by accepting that Jesus is the sacrifice for our sins you accept the Law has changed since the Law requires the sacrifice of goats, bulls, lambs, birds, wine, bread, and etc. not a human being. Also if God did not change the Law can you explain Acts 9:10-16, Acts 15:22-39, Hebrews 8 & 9, and Exodus 20:4-6 with Jeremiah 31:29f and Ezekiel 18:2f? God made major changes when the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant.

It is not according to me, it is according to scripture. Let's look at it and see what it says.

1 Corinthians 14:37 - If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Look at these scriptures. Do you agree with John, that sin is the transgression of the law? Do you agree with Paul who says that what he is writing are the commandments of the Lord? Does he not afterward tell them to sin not?

If you agree with Paul and John. Then you are acknowleding that one of the commandments of the Lord is to awake to righteousness and sin not. And you also, acknowledge that transgressing the LAW is sin. Now, to not keep the Sabbath is to transgress the law, right? And if you do not awake to righteousness and sin not, you are not obeying the commandment of the Lord, right? Therefore,

John 14:24 - He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Matthew 15:3 - But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

However, if you want a direct answer to your question do I teach others to ignore the 4th Commandment, no. I leave that up to the individual, but I oppose a legalistic stance on this one part of the Law made by those who don't keep the whole Law, including the dietary laws, the laws concerning keeping the Passover, and the other celebrations commanded by God in the Law, and etc. You seem to want to ignore this

:Quote:
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. NAS

If you don't keep the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread then you are guilty of murder and adultery since these festivals are included in the Law.

So to your however answer, it seems to me as if you are saying you have no law that you are under, which would make you lawless and we know what the bible says of those who are lawless. Aineo, please start obeying God. It is more than acknowledging that Christ is Lord by mouth.

I am not an expert of the Jewish calender. But I do celebrate the passover. Why would I celebrate holidays set up by the world such as Easter and the likes, but not celebrate the holidays that God set up. Why would I chose the worlds celebrated days over Yah's. I have not disregarded that scripture, but it seems to me that you have not understood these:

Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He never intended to destroy (which would be to do away with) but to fulfill.

Hebrews 9:28 - So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Seek and ye shall find. He is still fulfilling the law. He is present now, in those who have been seeking Him. And he is still delivering them from their land of bondage [to sin] which is Egypt. Truly, Christ is our Passover (delieverance from the land of bondage). We have truly been in bondage to our sins. Thank God that Christ came to fulfill...

With Love,

[Aineo]

What I have noticed "snipe" is that you have not commented on the Scriptures I posted. And I used your banned screen name for a purpose. Take heed that Endurance does not go the way of Snipe.

Now if you are going to correct me then put Scripture in context.

1 Corinthians 14:37 - If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

What did Paul teach? He taught that gentiles did not need to keep the dietary laws, be circumcised, keep the festivals found in the Law, and a lot of other concepts and "commandments" the Judaizers objected to.

You are being very selective on what you will and will not accept from Scripture, which indicates to me that you don't accept God's word as the truth and are pushing a cultish agenda that voids our freedoms in Christ.

Oh, and by the way when Jesus was addressing the great commandment He said the Law and the prophets were based on the love of God and love of neighbor. And in the prophets God states He will institute a New Covenant. In the New Covenant we are not under law but grace, which is also something Paul taught.

Now since James writes that if we stumble in just one part of the Law we are guilty of the whole Law do you keep the whole Law?

[Endurance]

I will give you a second to comment on everything I've said and then I'll respond to keep the number of posts down. I have responded to all that you have said. If you just qoute a scripture and do not expound on you purpose for qouting it. You have said nothing to respond to. I don't argue against scripture, but incorrect interpretations I do confront...
If you feel you have said things I have not addressed, (keep in mind qouting a scripture and saying nothing about it is not acceptable), include them into your post so that I may respond to all in one post rather than having to make to. With that being said, I'll wait to see what you have to say about everything in the last two posts...

With Love,

[Aineo]

Endurance, I have fully explained what I believe and why. If you cannot comprehend what was written that is your problem. However, the only thing you have shown is that you can quote Scripture but you don't understand what you post. This is evident since you quoted Paul and then ignored that Paul taught that gentiles (and Jews) do not have to obey the whole Law since Christians are under grace not the Law.

[Endurance]

Endurance, I have fully explained what I believe and why. If you cannot comprehend what was written that is your problem. However, the only thing you have shown is that you can quote Scripture but you don't understand what you post. This is evident since you quoted Paul and then ignored that Paul taught that gentiles (and Jews) do not have to obey the whole Law since Christians are under grace not the Law.

Incorrect you are again. I do acknowledge that Paul taught the gentiles that they don't have to obey everything. Those things being circumcision, sacrifices, etc b/c they were foreshadowing of things to come or rather things that Christ have fulfilled.

Other things such as to abstain from blood are part of the law and they are encouraged to keep it, right?

You said you have addressed everything, what of this?

1 Corinthians 14:37 - If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Look at these scriptures. Do you agree with John, that sin is the transgression of the law? Do you agree with Paul who says that what he is writing are the commandments of the Lord? Does he not afterward tell them to sin not?

If you agree with Paul and John. Then you are acknowleding that one of the commandments of the Lord is to awake to righteousness and sin not. And you also, acknowledge that transgressing the LAW is sin. Now, to not keep the Sabbath is to transgress the law, right? And if you do not awake to righteousness and sin not, you are not obeying the commandment of the Lord, right? Therefore,

John 14:24 - He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Matthew 15:3 - But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Do you acknowledge that we are commanded to sin not as Paul wrote and that He said he was writing the commandments of the Lord?

Do you acknowledge that John says that sin is the transgression of the law?

and what of this?

Acts 10:28 - And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean

According to Peter, the vision was telling him not to call any man common or unclean. It had nothing to do with eating. SO Aineo, who is right, you or Peter?

Acts 10: 15 - And again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy."

Do you still feel as though you were right in assuming that Acts 10:9-16 is disannulling dietary things, or do you now agree with Peter that is was God telling him to not call any man unclean.

Note: at not one point did I tell anyone that they cannot eat certain foods. I said I don't because He told us these things for a reason. But I do say that we should honor the Sabbath.

And what about this?

Luke 16:16 - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

This says that John was the last prophet of the OT, and Christ is the first of the new. Which is indicated by Him saying since that time, the kingdom of God is preached. Did He not make this claim while still being alive? So it was not after the resurrection, but after John, when He began. Please stop giving scripture your meaning for it and accept His.

Again I say, like the author of Hebrews has stated. The Sabbath which was ordained centuries before the promise made to Abraham is not disannulled by it, because it was ordained before the promise. Just as the law, given centuries after the promise does not disannul the promise.

Do you still feel that Christ was the last prophet of the OT?

Do you agree that the Sabbath was ordain before the promise?

If so, then I repeat what was promised centuries later cannot disannul what God ordained. Just as the law which was given centuries later cannot disannul what was promised. Til heaven and Earth pass my friend

What about this?

Again you have given the scripture your own meaning. THe scripture does not say don't mix meat (animal) and dairy (for that matter I don't know anyone who drinks milk with steaks). It says, don't boil a goat in it's mothers milk. It does not say don't mix dairy and animal.

Deuteronomy 14:21 - Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Do you still believe that God said not to mix dairy and animal? If so, show me the scripture that says this. This one says not to seethe a kid in his mother's milk. It says nothing of dairy and animals.

What of this?

Acts 15:21 - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Now they were talking about what to say to the gentile believer right? Let's keep things in context here.

Acts 15: 19-20 - Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

You see, in order not to be overbearing, they just spoke of the most serious matters because (verse 21 above) they had access to what Moses taught in the synagogues every SABBATH. So there was no need to express everything b/c they had teaching on the Law every week.

Do you still feel that Acts 15:20 is speaking of the only things we are to observe or that they where not trying to be overbearing and just spoke of what they felt was most important?

And what of this?

Yes I have studied them and according to Paul the law has not been done away with, but rather established (Rom 3:31). The OT is our foundation. How do you suppose we deny our foundation. If the Law is established by us, then we should be manifestations of it. Do you agree?

Do you agree? if not, why?

And what of this?

John 14:24 - He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

You said according to me, those who love God keep his commandments, but who is saying it. Me or Christ?

Matthew 15:3 - But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

And what of this?

Aineo, God did not change the Law. God is the Law (His Word) and God does not change friend. Do you believe that God changes? We are told that the Word is God. Do you feel the the Law is not part of God's Word?

Do you feel God changes? Is the Law part of God's word? Is the Word God?

The thing is that Christ revealed (manigested) God (The Word which the law is part of) in the flesh. You accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about yet, you fail to correct what I'm saying. Just going off and giving your own opinion does not do this. But rather explaining how what I'm saying is wrong and then offering the correct explanation does, which you have failed to do. Look at the dietary thing above. Am I not explaining how your interpretation is wrong by qouting Peter and explaing why (He interpreted it differently than you do)? Yet you are not doing this. You say I'm wrong and go off and state how you feel rather than explaining how I'm wrong and giving what you say is the truth.

WIth the dietary thing, Christ being the last prophet of the OT, etc. I have explained how you are wrong. Do you still think you are correct. Partial statments are above. Feel free to respond. But if we keep on jumping place to place, we will go nowhere. Unless you ignoring them means you are conceding, I'm awaiting your response and then I will respond likewise...

Or will you ban me because I feel you are giving scripture your own meaning and explaining why I feel that way? No need to ban me for these things. All you have to do is explain how what I said you said wrong is right and how I'm wrong. Do all things with wisdom and understanding friend...

With Love,

[Aineo]

Your whole premise is flawed. It is through the Law we learn what sin is, on that we can agree. However, when you extend disobeying the Law as you have and do not keep the whole Law then you are guilty of the whole Law. Paul taught the dietary laws, circumcision and other aspects of the Law are mute, therefore Paul is teaching gentiles and Jews to disregard portions of the Law and according to you is disobeying what Jesus taught concerning the Law. Is it a sin to work on the Sabbath? No, since we are under the authority of governments and our employers and if our employers or the government require we work on the Sabbath then we are not disobeying the intent or spirit of the Law, which was one of Jesus’ teachings when He confronted the Pharisees.

What is your concept of keeping the Sabbath?

[Endurance]

Your whole premise is flawed. It is through the Law we learn what sin is, on that we can agree. However, when you extend disobeying the Law as you have and do not keep the whole Law then you are guilty of the whole Law. Paul taught the dietary laws, circumcision and other aspects of the Law are mute, therefore Paul is teaching gentiles and Jews to disregard portions of the Law and according to you is disobeying what Jesus taught concerning the Law. Is it a sin to work on the Sabbath? No, since we are under the authority of governments and our employers and if our employers or the government require we work on the Sabbath then we are not disobeying the intent or spirit of the Law, which was one of Jesus’ teachings when He confronted the Pharisees.

What is your concept of keeping the Sabbath?

I'll take this response as you conceding to everything in the post above and admitting you are wrong to those things I've said you are wrong about. Now, we can move on with that being behind us. If you wish to suggest otherwise, we are waiting for you to explain how I'm wrong and you right. Now to address the content of the qoute...

No, you are wrong, I said some things were a foreshadowing of things to come. Those things being fulfilled are fulfilled and not changed. The law has not been changed, but the focus is on the spirit, rather than the simple letter of it.

For example, Christ says, you have heard it said that you shall not commit adulter (according to the letter of the law), but I say, he who lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart (according the spirit). If you don't desire any woman other than your wife, you will not transgress the commandment (clean the inside of the cup in other words).

Now, as far as the Levitical system with all of it's practices which were a foreshadowing of things to come, they have been fulfilled. That is why some things Paul doesn't promote observance of. Now as far as the ten commandments, they were written with the finger of God and thus eternal. He is His Word. Okay, what other of the ten commandments do you feel that we are no longer to obey or is this the only one? And if this is the only one, why do you feel this is the only one that we need not to obey? Surely no where in scripture does it say for us to no longer honor it.

Hebrews 4:9 - There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

The Sabbath has not been fulfilled for there still remains a rest for the people of God.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not saying to go and follow the levitical system of worship. I'm saying obey the commandments (10) of God, which were written with His own finger and therefore eternal. Or do you think men can erase what God wrote with His own hand?

Now regarding the statement in bold. How wrong you are again.

Christ asked is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath and in no way said that it's permitted to do one's own will on it. That goes to show who your true alligiance is too, which is the world. You think that God did away with his holy day for the sake of us pleasing men? Pure foolishness.

Christ purpose was to show the Pharisees hypocrisy. How they were using the Sabbath to confine others while they still did things that they felt were necessary on the Sabbath. Did he not ask if they let loose their oxen? His purpose was to show that the Sabbath is not meant to be used as an excuse. That it is not wrong to do things that are necessary on it. If you disagree, showing me a scripture where Christ is telling people to no longer honor the Sabbath or that it's fine to do whatever you want on it will suffice. Otherwise, those are your own words and not what the scriptures teach because you are unable to show where they say such things.

An example of what I'm saying would be, if one needed medicine, but one is not permitted to work on the Sabbath, it is fine to conduct medical treatment. For example, Christ healed a man on the Sabbath when he could have waited for the next day to do it, right? But he did not use the Sabbath as an excuse not to do what was right.

With Love,

[Aineo]

When you cannot respond with substance you assume you have won, that has been your tactic on every thread you have posted to this message board, I have not conceded anything.

Paul taught gentiles they did not have to keep any aspect of the Law other than what the Council of Jerusalem charged them to keep. Paul taught gentiles the Law was a tutor that led them to Christ after which they no longer needed the tutor (Law).

Now do you think you can answer a simple question? What is your concept of the Sabbath.

[Endurance]

I will leave you to your own opinion on this matter then. Because it is not wise to try and reason with a person who will not address what is said to them, and to this very second, you still say things about me (I make comments with no substance) but have yet to exhibit you understand what I've said or explain how my stance is without substance...

You have truly conceded. You couldn't even acknowledge that Peter's interpretation of his vision is correct and your is wrong. But one person's opinion shouldn't bother you. That is unless it is truth. Then the person who is confronted with truth will start to feel rage, bitterness, and dislike for the person confronting them. The many times you banned me without cause and threatening to ban me again manifest what is in your heart. If you refuse to address it, my words are the least of your worries...

With Love,

[Aineo]

So what you are telling me Endurance is you don't believe the Bible in inerrant and that Paul and Luke recorded heresy. You are also telling me that you just love to ask questions and then refuse to answer one simple question.

Your original screen name fits you to a "t".

[Endurance]

So what you are telling me Endurance is you don't believe the Bible in inerrant and that Paul and Luke recorded heresy. You are also telling me that you just love to ask questions and then refuse to answer one simple question.

Your original screen name fits you to a "t".

What I'm telling you is that I have answered all of your previous remarks and you refuse to address what I say to you. So there is not point in talking with someone who does not respond to your points.

I don't believe Paul or Luke taught heresy, I've explained why already if you care to understand, reread my posts. I do believe the Bible to be the word of God and I used to believe that it was inerrant, but I wouldn't say it is inerrant now. To say that it is inerrant is to say that it has no flaw at all. Everything that man puts his hand on has a flaw friend. But if I had shown you a flaw, I doubt you would accept it...

As a matter of fact, I recall you saying that there is no perfect translation yourself...

Love Always,

[Endurance]

Do you recall saying this on the NIV changes the day star to Morning star thread

On Sun Nov 28, 2004 02:08 pm

I agree with you, which is why I do not use the KJV. My Bible of choice is the NAS. However, if you want to get down to basics no English translation is the inerrant word of God, which was given to us in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

Now you ask me if I believe it, when according to this, you don't believe that English bible to be the inerrant word of God...

With Love,

[Aineo]

You are a game playing little Snipe. Now go back and put that in the context of the thread.

Like I posted when you cannot respond you resort to sniping at those who disagree with you.

What is your concept of the Sabbath?

[Endurance]

Endurance, I have fully explained what I believe and why. If you cannot comprehend what was written that is your problem. However, the only thing you have shown is that you can quote Scripture but you don't understand what you post. This is evident since you quoted Paul and then ignored that Paul taught that gentiles (and Jews) do not have to obey the whole Law since Christians are under grace not the Law.

Incorrect you are again. I do acknowledge that Paul taught the gentiles that they don't have to obey everything. Those things being circumcision, sacrifices, etc b/c they were foreshadowing of things to come or rather things that Christ have fulfilled.

Other things such as to abstain from blood are part of the law and they are encouraged to keep it, right?

You said you have addressed everything, what of this?

1 Corinthians 14:37 - If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Look at these scriptures. Do you agree with John, that sin is the transgression of the law? Do you agree with Paul who says that what he is writing are the commandments of the Lord? Does he not afterward tell them to sin not?

If you agree with Paul and John. Then you are acknowleding that one of the commandments of the Lord is to awake to righteousness and sin not. And you also, acknowledge that transgressing the LAW is sin. Now, to not keep the Sabbath is to transgress the law, right? And if you do not awake to righteousness and sin not, you are not obeying the commandment of the Lord, right? Therefore,

John 14:24 - He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Matthew 15:3 - But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Do you acknowledge that we are commanded to sin not as Paul wrote and that He said he was writing the commandments of the Lord?

Do you acknowledge that John says that sin is the transgression of the law?

and what of this?

Acts 10:28 - And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean

According to Peter, the vision was telling him not to call any man common or unclean. It had nothing to do with eating. SO Aineo, who is right, you or Peter?

Acts 10: 15 - And again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy."

Do you still feel as though you were right in assuming that Acts 10:9-16 is disannulling dietary things, or do you now agree with Peter that is was God telling him to not call any man unclean.

Note: at not one point did I tell anyone that they cannot eat certain foods. I said I don't because He told us these things for a reason. But I do say that we should honor the Sabbath.

And what about this?

Luke 16:16 - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

This says that John was the last prophet of the OT, and Christ is the first of the new. Which is indicated by Him saying since that time, the kingdom of God is preached. Did He not make this claim while still being alive? So it was not after the resurrection, but after John, when He began. Please stop giving scripture your meaning for it and accept His.

Again I say, like the author of Hebrews has stated. The Sabbath which was ordained centuries before the promise made to Abraham is not disannulled by it, because it was ordained before the promise. Just as the law, given centuries after the promise does not disannul the promise.

Do you still feel that Christ was the last prophet of the OT?

Do you agree that the Sabbath was ordain before the promise?

If so, then I repeat what was promised centuries later cannot disannul what God ordained. Just as the law which was given centuries later cannot disannul what was promised. Til heaven and Earth pass my friend

What about this?

Again you have given the scripture your own meaning. THe scripture does not say don't mix meat (animal) and dairy (for that matter I don't know anyone who drinks milk with steaks). It says, don't boil a goat in it's mothers milk. It does not say don't mix dairy and animal.

Deuteronomy 14:21 - Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Do you still believe that God said not to mix dairy and animal? If so, show me the scripture that says this. This one says not to seethe a kid in his mother's milk. It says nothing of dairy and animals.

What of this?

Acts 15:21 - For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Now they were talking about what to say to the gentile believer right? Let's keep things in context here.

Acts 15: 19-20 - Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

You see, in order not to be overbearing, they just spoke of the most serious matters because (verse 21 above) they had access to what Moses taught in the synagogues every SABBATH. So there was no need to express everything b/c they had teaching on the Law every week.

Do you still feel that Acts 15:20 is speaking of the only things we are to observe or that they where not trying to be overbearing and just spoke of what they felt was most important?

And what of this?

Yes I have studied them and according to Paul the law has not been done away with, but rather established (Rom 3:31). The OT is our foundation. How do you suppose we deny our foundation. If the Law is established by us, then we should be manifestations of it. Do you agree?

Do you agree? if not, why?

And what of this?

John 14:24 - He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

You said according to me, those who love God keep his commandments, but who is saying it. Me or Christ?

Matthew 15:3 - But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Luke 6:46 - And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

And what of this?

Aineo, God did not change the Law. God is the Law (His Word) and God does not change friend. Do you believe that God changes? We are told that the Word is God. Do you feel the the Law is not part of God's Word?

Do you feel God changes? Is the Law part of God's word? Is the Word God?

The thing is that Christ revealed (manigested) God (The Word which the law is part of) in the flesh. You accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about yet, you fail to correct what I'm saying. Just going off and giving your own opinion does not do this. But rather explaining how what I'm saying is wrong and then offering the correct explanation does, which you have failed to do. Look at the dietary thing above. Am I not explaining how your interpretation is wrong by qouting Peter and explaing why (He interpreted it differently than you do)? Yet you are not doing this. You say I'm wrong and go off and state how you feel rather than explaining how I'm wrong and giving what you say is the truth.

WIth the dietary thing, Christ being the last prophet of the OT, etc. I have explained how you are wrong. Do you still think you are correct. Partial statments are above. Feel free to respond. But if we keep on jumping place to place, we will go nowhere. Unless you ignoring them means you are conceding, I'm awaiting your response and then I will respond likewise...

Or will you ban me because I feel you are giving scripture your own meaning and explaining why I feel that way? No need to ban me for these things. All you have to do is explain how what I said you said wrong is right and how I'm wrong. Do all things with wisdom and understanding friend...

With Love,

I will gladly address your question after you have responded to these things with some substance (explanation). I have responded to everything you've posted throughout. You said I overlooked circumcision, and did I not respond to it?

Whatever happened to do unto others?

I cannot move on with this conversation by addressing a new issue/question, until these things have been addressed...

If you don't address them (if you say my analysis is wrong, explain how), don't worry about me making another post on this thread friend. No one is fooled. Anyone can see who's avoiding what...

Matthew 21:24 - And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.

Matthew 21:27 - And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

And likewise I say, if you refuse to answer what is addressed to you, then neither will I answer your question...

Do unto others as you wish them to do unto you...

Love Always,

[Aineo]

I have addressed every single point that you brought up and you have refused to repond to my one simple question, actually two since I asked if you kept the whole law.

Now it is your time to respond, what is your concept of the Sabbath and do you keep the Law?

[Alpha]

Time and time again the scriptures teach us of God's mercy and grace to the humble and those that sin in ignorance. The scripture also teaches us that these arguments are not worth dividing over. With this said, I am not saying you two should not debate this issue, but do it with gentleness and respect. This is also something which I have to learn to do. Now, as far as I see, with this discussion you have two options:

(1) Agree to disagree knowing this:

Endurance, the Lord knows your heart. If you feel you should keep the Sabbath, then keep it. The only thing is Sabbath keepers should not go around preaching that people will go to hell for not keeping it (Not saying you are preaching this Endurance). Let God be the judge.

Aineo, if you are convinced that we are not obligated to keep the Sabbath (seventh day), then fine. The Lord knows your heart and the Lord will be the judge.

(2) Continue the debate with gentleness and respect, being patient with one another. And don't lie and post that you have been patient, because that is not obvious by some of the remarks I've read.

[Aineo]

Good advice, Alpha. As I posted I leave keeping the Sabbath up to the individual since those with Government and secular jobs who are required to work on the Sabbath are being obedient to God's word by obeying their Government and employer.

[burwelm]

To me the Sabbath is God's way of showing us a spiritual truth through a law. The truth I get is that it is okay to let the Holy Spirit lead us. We are meant to have balance in our lives which means that times to rest and appreciate God are the most important part of life. Jesus said that when the bridegroom is here that is when we are to rejoice just like Jesus told Martha that it was better to spend time with Him than to work when he was there. It is basically that it is okay to do what we WANT when what we want will bring us closer to God, but also that to keep what we want we will have to work when this time is over. The six days of work are what allows the one special day to be so special- because we have worked to make it the best it can be. It does not matter which day the sabbath is celebrated on, only that it is our offering to God of the fruits of our labors. It can be spread out over the whole week. We should offer the friuts of our labors to God about 1/7 of the time. The offering of our labors to God is that we are able to glorify Him through our living and make others want what we have and be like us. We need time just to enjoy the fellowship of others and enjoy the fruits of our labors for God's sake because He made us to enjoy life to the fullest. Hard work helps us enjoy the harvest of our labors even more because we can feel that we took part in bringing glory to God through the Christian life.

[Endurance]

To me the Sabbath is God's way of showing us a spiritual truth through a law. The truth I get is that it is okay to let the Holy Spirit lead us. We are meant to have balance in our lives which means that times to rest and appreciate God are the most important part of life. Jesus said that when the bridegroom is here that is when we are to rejoice just like Jesus told Martha that it was better to spend time with Him than to work when he was there. It is basically that it is okay to do what we WANT when what we want will bring us closer to God, but also that to keep what we want we will have to work when this time is over. The six days of work are what allows the one special day to be so special- because we have worked to make it the best it can be. It does not matter which day the sabbath is celebrated on, only that it is our offering to God of the fruits of our labors. It can be spread out over the whole week. We should offer the friuts of our labors to God about 1/7 of the time. The offering of our labors to God is that we are able to glorify Him through our living and make others want what we have and be like us. We need time just to enjoy the fellowship of others and enjoy the fruits of our labors for God's sake because He made us to enjoy life to the fullest. Hard work helps us enjoy the harvest of our labors even more because we can feel that we took part in bringing glory to God through the Christian life.

If the Holy Spirit is leading. It will not teach contrary to God's Law, but it will establish it Rom 3:31

For us to say that we can celebrate any day as the Sabbath is not spirit led. God chose the seventh day as His day of rest. Who are we to speak otherwise? Christ said, "not my will by thy will be done." Yet I hear Christians saying, "not thy will, but my will be done," spoken contrary to Christ. They say, "you chose the Sabbath, but we've decided otherwise." Man making his own way in rebellion of God's word.

Hard work, helps us enjoy life?

That is all depending on what you call hard work and what you are enjoying in life

1 John 2:16 - For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

If that rejoicing is in the Lord, then all is well. But if that joy is of wordly things, such as materials, wealth, status, and the likes, it is wordly and carnal.

We should offer the friuts of our labors to God about 1/7 of the time. The offering of our labors to God is that we are able to glorify Him through our living and make others want what we have and be like us. We need time just to enjoy the fellowship of others and enjoy the fruits of our labors for God's sake because He made us to enjoy life to the fullest.

A 1/7 of the time?

Proverbs 3:6 - In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

God is not concerned with the offering of your labors. Do you think that God needs money? Does scripture not state that obedience is better than sacrifice.

1 Samuel 15:22 - And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Proverbs 21:3 - To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Financial contributions are trivial when compared to justice and obedience. Yet man says, "I'll chose my own day rather than obey You."

Hosea 6:6 - For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

We are told that many perish from a lack of knowledge.

I agree with you that we glorify Him through our living, but it is not to make others want to have our material lives but our spiritual lives (as I think you are referring to. Not to want to be like us because of our wordly successes. This is the carnal mind (not to say this is your intent).

James 4:5 - Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

We indeed have a carnal nature that desires to be envied, praised, and of worth in the eyes of others. But he who is exalted by men, is usually not by God.

Matthew 6:2 - Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Our worship is not done for show and envy as the hypocrites do. But our worship is in spirit and truth. Let not thy left hand know what the right doeth.

John 5:44 - How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

We need time just to enjoy the fellowship of others and enjoy the fruits of our labors for God's sake because He made us to enjoy life to the fullest.

Our fellowship must first be with God before we can experience true fellowship with any other believer.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin

I'm sure you noticed the IF WE walk in the light.

Psalms 56:13 - For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

He is surely able to keep our feet from falling, if we are willing to give up our own will for His will.

You say he made us to live life to the fullest?

I don't recall Him saying that. But I do recall Him saying this,

Matthew 10:39 - He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 16:25 - For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mark 8:35 - For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever

John 12:25 - He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

These in no way imply to me, "live life to the fullest."

It also goes back into what you are working hard for. If the heart is set on wordly treasures, then that is where the soul will be, with the corruptible things which are temporal and not eternal.

Matthew 6:21 - For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

And our hearts cannot be for both mammon and God nor can it be for both physical and spiritual.

2 Corinthians 4:18 - While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Luke 18:22 - Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

This does not sound like live life to the fullest to me either. He tells us to build up our treasure in heaven; not to indulge in the pleasures of this world, but that which is to come, the heavenly Jerusalem which is free.

1 Timothy 6:5 - Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Let's not be of those who suppose that gain or success in life is godliness and a thing to be envied.

1 Corinthians 1:28 - And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Scripture says that God has chosen the things that are despised and not those that are praised. When men sing praise to things, usually God is not praising it as well.

1 John 2:15 - Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

And I will leave with this. That love of the world and the things in it is not of the Father. According to scripture, those who love the world and it's belongings don't have the love of the Father in them.

God says seventh day and no scripture says Sunday has replaced His Sabbath. So the question is who's will be done, His or our own?

Love Always,

[Aineo]

Romans 3:19-31

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. NAS

Now show me where gentile Christians are under the law since Romans 3 is addressed to the Jews not gentiles.

Romans 3:1-4
3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? 4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,

"That Thou mightest be justified in Thy words,
And mightest prevail when Thou art judged."
NAS

After you show us where gentiles are under the provisions of the Law then you can explain this:

Acts 15:22-29

22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas-- Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them,

"The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.

24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell. " NAS

And this:

Colossians 2:16-19

16 Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God. NAS

[Endurance]

Now show me where gentile Christians are under the law since Romans 3 is addressed to the Jews not gentiles.

Look at your own qoute,

Romans 3:19-31
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

This says there is no distinction, all have sinned. How can one transgress where there is no law? He cannot transgress where there is nothing to transgress. So if all have sinned, all therefore must be under. Yet you make a distinction by saying this is for the Jews. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentiles. It is not one set of belief for Jews and another for Gentiles. Paul speaks on Him being sent to the gentiles, but his words apply to all. Would you tell a Jewish convert that he doesn't have to listen to what Paul said because He was sent to the Jews? When it says all have sinned, it doesn't mean all jews, but all men.

You say this is for the Jews and not the Gentiles. The scripture you posted says there is no distinction in Christ. Let God be true and every man a liar.

As for the rest, I don't disagree with scripture, only the lies men give it. Since you have said nothing about them, I have nothing to rebutt b/c scripture is true. Now, this thread is about the Sabbath, any comments which does not deal with the Sabbath will be ignored.

With Love,

[Aineo]

See how you emphasize what you want to emphasize?

Romans 3:19-31
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

You have already agreed that Christians are not under the law and Paul is stating that there is not distinction between those under the Law and those who are not under tha Law since all have sinned and fall showt of the glory of God.

As to the Christians being under the Sabbath lets try this one more time:

Romans 14:1-8
14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One man has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. NAS

Colossians 2:16-17

16 Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. NAS

One who is weak in faith keeps the Sabbath and only eats vegetables, while one who is strong in the faith is free to eat what he wills and observes every day as unto the Lord.

If is unfortunate you would try to place yourself under the yoke of slavery that is the Law.

[Endurance]

See how you emphasize what you want to emphasize?

What point are you making? This applies to you as well. When you bolden a phrase, are you not emphasizing what you want to emphasize?

You have already agreed that Christians are not under the law and Paul is stating that there is not distinction between those under the Law and those who are not under tha Law since all have sinned and fall showt of the glory of God.

True, I have agreed that followers of Christ are not under the law, but what else did I say? They are manifestations of it. I agree that Paul is saying there is no distinction between the two b/c all are accountable to God.

Romans 8:4 - That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 2:26 - Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Notice, he says if the uncircumcised keep the righteousness of the law it counts as circumcision. Also, that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us.

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

What does he mean we establish the law? Or will you ignore my questions and claim I'm ignoring yours as usual.

One who is weak in faith keeps the Sabbath and only eats vegetables, while one who is strong in the faith is free to eat what he wills and observes every day as unto the Lord.

As far as colossians goes, "sabbath days" are not referring to the seventh day, but the sabbaths days appointed to convocations. The scripture in Rom does not say one who is weak in faith honors the Sabbath. You are adding that.

Rom 14:5-6 - One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

It does not specify what the day is. One would have to assume (and do a poor job of it) that this refers to the Sabbath. A man cannot hold everyday as the Sabbath. How would he work and provide for his family? How would he attain food? Since one cannot buy or sale on the Sabbath. That is a far fetched assumption and one that violates common sense.

If is unfortunate you would try to place yourself under the yoke of slavery that is the Law.

what is unfortunate is the fact that you proclaim lawlessness and take pride in it.

Love Always,

[Endurance]

When you cannot respond with substance you assume you have won, that has been your tactic on every thread you have posted to this message board, I have not conceded anything.

Paul taught gentiles they did not have to keep any aspect of the Law other than what the Council of Jerusalem charged them to keep. Paul taught gentiles the Law was a tutor that led them to Christ after which they no longer needed the tutor (Law).

Now do you think you can answer a simple question? What is your concept of the Sabbath.

My concept of the Sabbath is that it is a Holy day to God, in which we are to rest. That we are to do His will and speak His words and not our own on it (not to say that we don't do His will on other days). A day to refect on Him as creator.

So Paul taught them that they didn't have to keep any part of the law except for what the council decided? The council didn't say anything about adultery, murder, bearing false witness, etc. So are these also things that gentiles don't have to observe?

It is not that I cannot respond. I just get tired of answering the same questions time and time again. Maybe I should just qoute myself everytime the same question is asked. Also, I get tired of answering all the questions presented to me and being ignored when I ask questions. So much for do unto others, huh.

With Love,

[Aineo]

You continue to pull verses out of context.

Romans 3:21-4:8

21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


Romans 4

4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works:

7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."
NAS

How was Abraham justified? Since Abraham preceded the Law by over 400 years he was not justified by keeping any law but through faith in God.

Paul writes in Galatians 3:24 that the Law teaches us what sin is but after learning what God defines as sin we are no longer under the Law when we come to Christ by faith since the works of the Law will not and has never saved anyone.

Romans 3:19-20

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
NAS

Romans 3:27-30
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
NAS

Galatians 2:15-16
15 "We are Jews by nature, and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
NAS

Galatians 3:1-6
3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain-- if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. NAS

My concept of the Sabbath is that it is a Holy day to God, in which we are to rest. That we are to do His will and speak His words and not our own on it (not to say that we don't do His will on other days). A day to refect on Him as creator.

So Paul taught them that they didn't have to keep any part of the law except for what the council decided? The council didn't say anything about adultery, murder, bearing false witness, etc. So are these also things that gentiles don't have to observe?

Now you are being obtuse. This is what the Council said:

Acts 15:28-29

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell. " NAS

What is fornication? Sex with someone other than your spouse and includes adultery. Since the Council was called to address the Judaisers who insisted that gentiles be circumcised (read Acts 15:1) the council addressed the minutia of the Law given specifically to the Jews. Murder, stealing, and other issues are addressed in other parts of the NT. “Love your neighbor as yourself” precludes harming your neighbor through murder, theft, adultery, and etc. But it does not mean anyone has to adhere to the dietary laws or keep the Sabbath according to your definition of the Sabbath.

Genesis 2:2-3
2 And by the seventh day God completed His work which He had done; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. NAS

The Sabbath is a holy convocation for the Jews in accordance with Leviticus 23:3, but was not designated as such before the Law. In Exodus we read that the Sabbath was instituted as a day of rest for the Jews in Exodus 16:23.

You have little to no understanding of the Bible and continue to pull verses out of context in a futile attempt to establish false doctrines that deny the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[(Omega)]

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)

Endurance, the recipient of Divine wrath is every one who, believing salvation can be obtained by meritorious works fails to obey the law perfectly. Complete obedience to the law is impossible for the sinful man:Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? - Acts 15:10 If you or anyone who attempts to secure salvation by this route are doomed.

I can keep the commandments and be more faithful and obedient to the law then you, however this does not better qualify me as a recipient for Salvation than you or anyone else for that matter, the precious Blood of Christ does.

God Bless!

[burwelm]

We are free from the law which means that we are free to do whatever we WANT because what we want is what God wants. We don't have to live by laws anymore after Jesus came because we have Jesus in our hearts to guide us and let us know what to do. John the Baptist lived in the wilderness- it was not important to him to outwardly celebrate the Sabbath by setting aside a certain day to reflect on God because everyday was the Sabbath to him in his heart. Everyday is our Sabbath in our hearts. We have God in our hearts. It is more important to be sensitive to the leading of God's Spirit than to focus on what we are "supposed to do " as Christians. People are different and God wants us to be flexible. We are free from the law now. We are not under the law anymore. In the Old Testament obeying the law was the way to obey God- now we can obey God's Spirit instead of rules. In general society I do agree that the Sabbath should be celebrated on Sunday but it isn't a sin to celebrate it on a different day. In the Bible the Sabbath was celebrated on Saturday.

[Loki]

according to the letter of Barnabas wich is one of the oldest (if not the oldest) extra biblical source wich says the sabbath was on the sunday.

you can find it online if you google it
be sure you seek 'the letter' and not 'the gospel'

[Endurance]

How was Abraham justified? Since Abraham preceded the Law by over 400 years he was not justified by keeping any law but through faith in God.

Abraham was justified through faith indeed. And as that faith manifested into obedience (works) the word spoken by God was fulfilled, as stated in Hebrews.

Paul writes in Galatians 3:24 that the Law teaches us what sin is but after learning what God defines as sin we are no longer under the Law when we come to Christ by faith since the works of the Law will not and has never saved anyone.

If the law teaches us what sin is, look at these scriptures.

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Ephesians 4:26 - Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If the law teaches us what sin is, and we are told a number of times not to sin, living in the flesh, then one should not do what is defined by sin. You convict yourself with your own words.

I recall you saying that being a christian is chosing the good instead of the bad. Well is sin good or bad? Paul calls the law just and Holy. So is the Law good or bad? You say the law tells us what sin is. Then be a christian and chose the good and not the bad.

Now you are being obtuse. This is what the Council said:
What is fornication? Sex with someone other than your spouse and includes adultery. Since the Council was called to address the Judaisers who insisted that gentiles be circumcised (read Acts 15:1) the council addressed the minutia of the Law given specifically to the Jews. Murder, stealing, and other issues are addressed in other parts of the NT. “Love your neighbor as yourself” precludes harming your neighbor through murder, theft, adultery, and etc. But it does not mean anyone has to adhere to the dietary laws or keep the Sabbath according to your definition of the Sabbath.

I am not being obtuse. I'm showing how the statement you made is false. YOu said that the council covered everything that gentiles were to observe and that since they didn't include the Sabbath, we don't have to honor it.

So I have shown how murder, lying, and being a drunk was not commented on, yet we obey them. These things show that your statement is false that the council said everything that gentiles are to obey.

The Sabbath is a holy convocation for the Jews in accordance with Leviticus 23:3, but was not designated as such before the Law. In Exodus we read that the Sabbath was instituted as a day of rest for the Jews in Exodus 16:23.

You have little to no understanding of the Bible and continue to pull verses out of context in a futile attempt to establish false doctrines that deny the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In Genesis we read that God proclaimed it Holy before Isreal was even created. He set it as a day of rest before Abraham was born. So how do you say that the the Holy day of the God of the world, is only Holy for Jews. I disagree. It is Holy to all those who love the One True God.

Isaiah 5:20-25 - Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

God does not change. What does it say, woe to them who are wise in their own eyes. what else, Because they have cast away teh law of the Lord of hosts and despised His word, the anger of God is kindled against them.

Will you follow in their steps and cast away His law?

Love Always,

[Aineo]

Endurance, the Law is both holy and just and God will judge non-believers based on His holy and just Law. That said you are still pulling verses out of context, which is legalism and denies our freedom in Christ. This is not a freedom to sin but a freedom that leads us to do good not evil, which is what every Christian has to choose on a daily basis.

As to Abraham he was obedient to God as a result of his faith, his obedience did not produce faith.

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. NAS

You have pulled only those verses that you think establish your thesis while totally ignorning:

Romans 3:19-20

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
NAS

Romans 3:26-30
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
NAS

Galatians 2:14-21
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? 15 "We are Jews by nature, and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. 17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 "For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God. 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me. 21 "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
NAS

Galatians 3:1-10
3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain-- if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them."
NAS

As to the Council of Jerusalem, this is what the gentiles were told:

Acts 15:28-29

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell. " NAS

Murder, stealing, and etc. not only violate God's law these behaviors violate secular law so your comments are a bit ludicrous if you believe I am ignoring such behavior.

Now the next time you decide that you are in a position to question the faith and obedience to the Lord of any other professed Christian on this board you are history. You have been warned about your attitude and enough is enough.

[(Omega)]

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)

Endurance, you are among the many of those who are of the works of the law, i.e., you put your reliance upon the obedience of the Mosaic Law as the means of winning divine approval(obtain salvation), as seen in your posts. Paul explicitly states that those who believe that Salvation can be obtained by meritorious works are the subject of Gods divine wrath and condemnation, because they are "under the curse".

Abraham is a primary example of the principle of "justification by faith", this is the same principle that was applied in the Old Testament and comes from the immutable God who uses it to justify the ungodly. Faith isn't a work which is performed to earn righteousness, but rather a way through which God can impute the righteousness of Christ to the sinner, thus he/she is "accounted" righteous and NOT "made" righteous. The faith that you possess is a mixture of "vain faith" and "legalistic faith", vain faith as in your belief in an erroneous doctrine and legalistic faith whereby you attribute a moral value to another brother or sister in Christ and feel as if you must abstain from its practices, when in fact they are not sinful in themselves. Endurance, Christ has made us free, however you have been entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Your soul is in danger of Hellfire if you continue to try and secure salvation by this route.

God Bless!

[we]

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Jesus already laid the foundation for the new temple of God. It is invisible.

Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Zec 6:15 And they that are far off {from that time] shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.

Mic 1:2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple. [which temple ye are} 1Cr 3:17

Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword [Word of God] in their hand; To execute upon them the judgment [already] written : this honor have all his saints. Psa 149:9

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing [the Word of God] which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The ministers of God are the angels:

Hbr 1:13 To which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hbr 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

He speaks to the visible AND the invisible:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.

He says He is going to shake both.

When Paul is addressing the elders [24 of them before the throne in heaven] and the ministers - even though it does not specifically say - no one can assume Paul is addressing the visible.

Because His angels are the ministering spirits and He says He speaks to both the heavens AND the earth.

God never leaves anything undone} Jos 11:15

He is not the author of confusion.

Having this understanding [God speaking to many more than just humans] - an understanding that this world does not have - will help very much with understanding the Holy Scriptures.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. [ALL who are in the Body of Christ - made up of many members} 1Cr 12:12 ]

The son of perdition is also made up of many members:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Hbr 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one [Esau], and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.

1Jo 2:27 ye need not that any man teach you

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The Word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach. [The Doctrine of Christ]

Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things; by whom also he made the worlds. {plural]

Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. [By faith - as Abraham did]

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done [again]: and there is no new thing under the sun. [Because He creates worlds {plural] and He says He does not change]

Each world has 2 sons. The first one that we are told about mentions Abel - who was a 'keeper of sheep' and Cain - who was of that wicked one} 1Jo 3:12

And now we are facing the times where the son of the wicked one - goes after the Son of God - made up of many members - each.

I hope this helps concerning keeping the physical ordinances of the Old Testament

[we]

Aineo said:

Endurance, the Law is both holy and just and God will judge non-believers based on His holy and just Law. That said you are still pulling verses out of context, which is legalism and denies our freedom in Christ. This is not a freedom to sin but a freedom that leads us to do good not evil, which is what every Christian has to choose on a daily basis.

New Testament - the laws of the heart:

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. {second greatest command]

If a day to the Lord is as 1000 years - and God creats a world in 7 days
and then 'Rests on the 7th day' ?.....

It's been 2000 years since Christ rested for 3 days [the times of flesh, 72 hours as Jonah was in the whale] from all His works which He had done...

What day of the week is it in heaven - according to God's 1000 years = one day?

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. {At the beginning of the 'third day' ]

Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever.

There is a time for the resurrection of the righteous - and a time for the resurrection of the damed.

Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, {that invisible temple - Body - of God - Christ being the Head] an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

'spiritual sacrifices'

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Let God do the talking [The Scriptures can not be broken]

Not even the infamous 2 different sets of number of stalls for Solomon's horses. It's so simple - it's funny.

[we]

1Ki 9:10 And it came to pass at the end of twenty years, when Solomon had built the two houses, the house of the LORD, and the king's house