Who is Peace2God’sPeople?

[galaxy]

The following are extracts from Peace2God’sPeople postings, one theme is quite obvious all along:

The very anti-Christian in contrast to the very pro-Islam points of view.
Peace2God’sPeople attacks every thing Christian.
The following is a selection of such postings to prove this observation.

I. ATTACKS ON THE BIBLE:

Peace2God’sPeople is against the Gospel of St John:

Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 02:21 pm Subject: Jesus and Muhammed

[Concerning the gospels, ever found it strange that most of Jesus' clear claims to divinity are found in the gospel of John, but not the others?]

The next is an attack on St Paul:

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 02:52 am Subject: Does society define Christian standards?


[I have grown tired of complex theological systems which require a "trained priesthood" for them to continue. I wonder why Christianity would be nothing without Paul. I wonder if Christ's message is not better and more challenging without Paul. I wonder if Mohammed's teachings do a much better job of showing man what God expects.]

[Jesus shows us "the perfect attitude"-yes, I would agree. But does he give us ample direction on how we should act this out. No, using Paul's interpretation of Christ's life, a church can be built, and a beautiful story of God's love for man maintained. But the "Will of God" is always really defined by the local pastor/priest.]

[Here is the "will of God" in Christianity as defined by the Pauline Church.

a) church attendance
b) tithing to pay for the big building and the pastor
c) participation in ministry to bring in more believers to make the building bigger]

(Comment: above is utter nonsense)

[Muslims, your faith attracts me and scares me. Tell me more.]

[Some kind of G12 home cell church movement that focuses on the Sermon on the Mount or other basic teachings of Christ might be ideal. However, the issue and official theology of Jesus's divinity will always create division due to the difficulty in explaining the teachings of the Trinity. Perhaps the lack of unity in the Christian church is the price that is paid for making three gods out of One.]

(Comment: Christians do not believe in three Gods, this is a typical Muslim speaking)

[Also, why is it that without Paul's teachings, Jesus divinity is much more questionable? Are not Jesus' ideas good enough on their own? Don't you see that church buildings and paid pastors are the necessary result of having a complex theology?]

[At any rate, I am wide open for ideas. My main concern is finding a faith that leads people to fulfill their covenants with God and each other. If you can lead me there, I am all ears.]

[galaxy]

Continuation of " Who is Peace2God’sPeople":

II. Attacks on Christianity:

Peace2God’sPeople throws doubt about Christian Fellowship:

Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 09:29 am Subject: Do Christian men have a strong sense of Brotherhood?

[I want to know what Christian men have to say about their sense of "brotherhood" with other Christian men.]

[After being a Christian for almost two decades, I can honestly say that the friendships I had with other Christian men always had a hollowness about them.]

[My theory is that men only fulfill their roles as men when they are true "men of action". It seems to me that Islam calls us to be men of action as it gives us clear guidance and direction, and true leadership, in our homes and in our community.]

[In my humble view, this is what shames Christian men. We have all been told in our churches by our pastors and in our homes by our wives to "back our ears" (to learn to live with these things as if they were some form of persecution to be patiently endured) in response to the evil in the world.]

[Does this resonate with any Christian men out there? Do you secretly agree that the sense of brotherhood you feel for other Christian men is pretty weak or would you disagree and say that you have a very strong, personal bond with the Christian men around you?]

[OR would you argue that such a feeling of brotherhood is not appropriate for men who love their Lord Jesus first?]

Peace2God’sPeople throws doubt about Christianity in a very sinister way:

Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 05:27 pm Subject: Islam Is The Fastest Growing Religion... Why???

[I have been a Christian for many years but I am starting to have some doubts.]

[Yet, as beautiful and complete as the theology seems, Jesus' teachings tell us very little about how we can live TOGETHER in a society. If we want those kinds of specifics we have to delve into Judaism which puts the Christian in quite a dilemma. For instance, according to Jesus, how do we go about creating wholesome and pure marriages? What is the game plan? Can someone quote me something from the New Testament? That is why divorce among Christians is as bad as divorce is in the world; this faith offers no concrete game plan. But look at Islam,]

[So do you see? Christianity only helps those people who are "truth" seekers in the first place. Islam seems wiser in realizing that the world is made up of more than those people who would naturally spend a great deal of their time reflecting on God and truth, if we are going to have a decent society, then the large percentage of NON-INTRAPERSONAL people have to have God's guidance in how to properly worship him, honor him, and follow holiness. In fact, even those who truly seek God in Christianity can't agree on many of the practical matters of holiness.]

[The "ludicrous" Islamic method that I mentioned above of making sure that adolescent (unrelated) boys and girls are properly chaperoned by family members is actually quite sensible. I don't understand how you can dismiss it so quickly.]

[By the way, I am not sure Islam is the answer to all of this, (I am not sure that it isn't) but I do know that Christianity is having a difficult time forming a consensus on how to solve these problems; as well as the problem of the lack of devotion among many Christians.]

[I guess I'm just not a good patriotic "American" Christian, because I despise our culture.]

Comment: The above is a writing of a non-Christian, but typical writings of a Muslim.
What Peace2God’sPeople is saying is that Islam is the answer to all the distorted questions he put.
Peace2God’sPeople is the Judge and Jury.

[galaxy]

Continuation of " Who is Peace2God’sPeople":

III. Views clearly promoting Islam:


Peace2God’sPeople Pro-Islam Views:

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 03:10 pm Subject: Muslim compassion

[Here in the west we like to denigrate Islam for being more strict on adultery than we are (do we really even care, most of us will gladly watch adultery in a movie.)]

[But, as I said we can't really condemn adultery as Christians can we?]

Comment: Again, the following is very anti-Christian, very much pro-Islam, only a committed Muslim would write like that:

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 02:52 am Subject: Does society define Christian standards?

[I am currently scouring the earth for the faith that best helps man to fulfill the following covenants with each other that I believe sum up the "Will of God". Sometimes I wonder if the Bible's length and Christian theology's complexity is not actually an obstacle to the following covenants really being honored between God and God's people:]

[If there is one thing that God put on this earth to do-it is to do his will.]

Comment: The above is the basic philosophy of Islam, “Submission”. In contrast, Christianity is based on “Love”. You will notice that Peace2God’sPeople never mentions the word love! How can a Muslim mention love, not alone know the meaning of love!!!

[Muslims, I am attracted by your devotion to God. But is there a true sense of joy and commitment in your families, in Islamic life.]

Comment: The answer to this last question is put by Peace2God’sPeople as Islam, he asks the question and answers that Islam is the best!!!

Comment: In this imposing as a Christian and attacking Christianity Peace2God’sPeople is exactly like ursus 137 who started thread “Christian vs Islamic Eschatology” with a question that ursus never answered till now.

A common trick by Muslims is to ask questions and never give an answer to any questions put to them.

Another trick is to pretend to be Christians, put many questions, and give the answer as if Islam has the answer for all their put up questions. Peace2God’sPeople falls in the last category.

That is an open challenge to Peace2God’sPeople to prove that he is a Christian as he is stating that he is, not a Muslim as all his posting are proving that he is an impostor.

[Peace2God'sPeople]

Galaxy,

Is it totally inconceivable that someone could spend almost 20 years as a Christian and, as they began to become disillusioned with all of society's problems and their own marriage struggles, begin to think that there must be a better way?

No, I don't pretend to feel like a Christian any longer, although my final decision in my heart has only occurred in the last few days.

And, gee, I don't know who to blame Christianity's woes on. Paul? Constantine? The pastors in the big churches who are more concerned about the size of the church than the true health of their families?

What is so impossible about this? I can see a problem not being solved when I see it.

For your information, I have spent years in churches enjoying the presence of God as a fully committed Christian. I have spoken in tongues, I have given a message in tongues in church, I have prayed aloud in church, I have prayed with my daughter at bedtime, I have asked God to please, please, keep my wife from divorcing me since I have always been devoted to her, always been faithful to her, and always worked very hard.

Sorry I don't want to divulge any more personal information than that on a public forum, but I have been a Christian and yes, I have been seriously considering that Islam is the way.

Before ever looking at Islam I considered every different Christian sect and every possible defect that might have occurred in Christianity since the "early days".

No more time for now. I sincerely hope that all of you will consider some of the things that I have been wrestling with.

Peace2God'sPeople

[Loki]

Before ever looking at Islam I considered every different Christian sect and every possible defect that might have occurred in Christianity since the "early days".

Religion is not something you choose like a peace of clothes wich fith you the best... If you have any value for truth, you'd study the religions.

Comming from a christian background, you'd at least have to have noticed the theological contradictions, the scriptual plagiarism of christian and jewish folklore and the historical dawn of islam wich is build upon conquering, genocide and mayhem...

Islam stands on christianity and judaism and utterly destroy's it (rejects genesis, the gospel, the revelation and replaces it with new ones). Choosing Islam is not in accordance with the Church of Christ (all christian denominations in wich salvation is atainable protestants, catholics, eastern orthodox,....) It is against Christ... Taking the position of a muslim, you represant the blaspheme of muhammed, everyone who proclaims himself muslim is by his belief forced to blaspheme christianity and spread the blapsheme around... and is therefore taking a much more aggressive standpoint against the Church then let's say a buddhist would.

by the way all early heresies started out this way "the bible is wrong, i'm gonna tell how it is"... muhammed's only a dime in a dozen, nothing special at all about him... yet i'm am amazed everyday how little people do research before they convert to such cheap claims and in this case (Islam) even a war doctrine.

You chose for a sheep in wolve's clothes.... your a sheep that went astray and joined the wolves my friend. Hope you will find your way back to the herd one day...

[galaxy]

For your information, I have spent years in churches enjoying the presence of God as a fully committed Christian. I have spoken in tongues, I have given a message in tongues in church, I have prayed aloud in church,

Before ever looking at Islam I considered every different Christian sect and every possible defect that might have occurred in Christianity since the "early days".

Peace2God'sPeople

If what you are saying is true, then you are directing your anger against your God, your creator, this will neither help your case nor save your sole.

Still, even if what you are saying is true, it does not explain how you say:
“Perhaps the lack of unity in the Christian Church is the price that is paid for making three gods out of one” because of the following:
1. It is only a Muslim, non-Christian who can say that.
2. Christianity is based on Trinity; Christians are not divided over this issue.
3. Christians do not believe in three gods, but in One God. The Creed starts by saying: “We believe in One God”.
4. Trinity is One in Three, and Three in One and not as you said: three gods out of one, only a Muslim would say what you said.
5. You mentioned talking in tongues: well this denotes an evangelical Church, which believes in Trinity, not in the rubbish you uttered.
6. Almost all what you wrote about the early Church is rubbish, historically incorrect. Only Muslims distort facts like this.

For more about Trinity and Islam see the following thread: Before Jesus (pbuh), Monotheism or trinity

Still you did not give a convincing answer that you are/were a Christian.
Your writings are more of a muddled Muslim impostor.

[Abdullah]

Galaxy, what are you trying to prove? if you make allegations and accusations implying he isnt a christian, i can say the same about Aburaees, Should i go make a seperate thread talking how aburaees was never a muslim because he talks like a christian attacking islam? leave it galaxy ur being desperate, dont accuse him of something you have no knowledge of.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace all

Peace2God'sPeople, please dont blame the sin of the world, regarding sin's infection on the unity of marriage, on the Lord.

Jesus is your Savior and Lord. His plan will be evident to you. Please don't stray to a religion that denies that Jesus is Lord and Savior.

And, gee, I don't know who to blame Christianity's woes on. Paul? Constantine? The pastors in the big churches who are more concerned about the size of the church than the true health of their families?

Church is religion, Jesus is faith and salvation.

keep my wife from divorcing me since I have always been devoted to her, always been faithful to her, and always worked very hard.

Before ever looking at Islam

Well of course, if you were a mus1im, your wife couldn't divorce you and you could beat the hell out of her and stone her.
How is that more rightous is the eye's of the Lord?

I considered every different Christian sect and every possible defect

I'll say it again: there are no "true" Christain "sects". Just religous denominations. Christianity is faith.

No, I don't pretend to feel like a Christian any longer

My brother, if you have spent years "pretending" to be a Christian, than you never were really a Christian.

I have prayed that the Holy Spirit come to you in your time of need. Please do the same borther. Jesus can heel all wounds.

BTW: I am a Lutheran in a large church (3000+). Yes that is my denomination, by my faith and salvation is with Jesus Christ. To make larger church seem smaller and more caring, you need to join the small Bible study groups. It helps.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Israel

[Alpha]

Matthew 13:18-23 > "Therefore hear the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

Which one were you Peace2God'sPeople ?

[Liberate]

1 Timothy 4
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Why Peace2God's people would you want to follow a murderer a rapist a pedofile, a slave trader, an adulterer, a fornicator over the perfect law of Christ? You know buddhist monks spend their entire lifetimes meditating to have one out of body experience why forsake the perfect law of Christ because our prayers have not been answered in time? and run into the arms of a waiting devil? Islam has nothing to offer but blind legalism it is a great pity anybody would convert to this religion I have to assume they are ill informed about it's context, islam is like nazism trying to be at peace with jews sure modern day nazi sympathisers may say Hitler was misrepresentated but the doctrine is still evil regardless of how followers or descendants of followers try and sugarcoat it all.

[Peace2God'sPeople]

The first thing I want to say is:

Thanks to everyone for sincere, concerned posts. I appreciate the time taken by everyone to do this.

Can I issue a small challenge as I am not sure if I can respond to all these posts at the same time. When I have more time later I will try to reply to as much as I can.

"How willing are Christians to abide by the true message of Jesus?"

Take the early church. They were against fighting for the Roman Empire not because the Roman Empire was anti-Christian, but because Jesus said that "my kingdom is not of this world". Jesus was totally and unequivocally devoted to surrendering to persecution.

How many of you support the United States in ANY war effort. If the Christian kingdom is not of this world then you should be 100% ready to handle persecution even if it means the extinction of Christianity.

Yet, I hear very few people in the Christian church in America doing anything but jumping on the bandwagon in support of "America" in our battle against evil dictators or evil Islam.

Was not the Roman Empire plenty evil enough when Jesus said those who were persecuted for his sake were blessed?

Honestly, I want to believe in a Christianity that is so ideal that "we" are all willing to lay down our lives to spread the love of God. But are more than a handful of Christians in the entire country ready to do this? Are there any pastors in ANY mainline denominations who dare say anything like this from their pulpits?

Peace2God'sPeople

[Aineo]

Apparently you have not fully studied the Bible. What does a government's decision to go to war have to do with Christianity? For a man who finds Islam attractive I find your reference to wars fought by Christians out to defend our freedoms as bit odd since Islam has instigated wars to force conversions since its inception.

Anyway back to the Bible:

Matthew 22:17-22
17 "Tell us therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?" 18 But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? 19 "Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21 They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." 22 And hearing this, they marveled, and leaving Him, they went away. NAS

Romans 13:1-7
13:1 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. NAS

Our physical life is under the control of secular governments, our spiritual life should be under the control of the Holy Spirit.

[Aburaees]

The first thing I want to say is:

Thanks to everyone for sincere, concerned posts. I appreciate the time taken by everyone to do this.

Can I issue a small challenge as I am not sure if I can respond to all these posts at the same time. When I have more time later I will try to reply to as much as I can.

"How willing are Christians to abide by the true message of Jesus?"

Take the early church. They were against fighting for the Roman Empire not because the Roman Empire was anti-Christian, but because Jesus said that "my kingdom is not of this world". Jesus was totally and unequivocally devoted to surrendering to persecution.

How many of you support the United States in ANY war effort. If the Christian kingdom is not of this world then you should be 100% ready to handle persecution even if it means the extinction of Christianity.

Yet, I hear very few people in the Christian church in America doing anything but jumping on the bandwagon in support of "America" in our battle against evil dictators or evil Islam.

Was not the Roman Empire plenty evil enough when Jesus said those who were persecuted for his sake were blessed?

Honestly, I want to believe in a Christianity that is so ideal that "we" are all willing to lay down our lives to spread the love of God. But are more than a handful of Christians in the entire country ready to do this? Are there any pastors in ANY mainline denominations who dare say anything like this from their pulpits?

Peace2God'sPeople

I hear what you're saying.

Many Christian Saints were martyred in the name of Jesus Christ. They were pacifist to the end, and died without fighting back (physically).

However, if the crusades and other christian led battles weren't fought, no doubt we would be under Islamic rule right now.

I often wonder whether it would have been worth allowing Islam to spread across Europe without lifting a sword in defence.

It seems that Europe and America wouldn't be what it is now without Christians taking up the sword in defiance of Jesus' teachings.

This is a dilemma for me, forsake the sword and let Islam spread unhindered, or forsake pacifism and keep Islam at bay?

Peace2God'sPeople, have you considered Jesus' words when he said that "few" are those who enter the "narrow" road to salvation, and "many" are those taking the "broad" road to destruction?

This is the reason why there aren't many Christians in the world who are willing to lay down their lives and forsake the sword. Few are willing to lay down arms and let the 'beast' roam the earth, but many are willing to take up arms and play the 'beats' at it's own game of war and hate.

.

[galaxy]

"How willing are Christians to abide by the true message of Jesus?"

Take the early church. They were against fighting for the Roman Empire not because the Roman Empire was anti-Christian, but because Jesus said that "my kingdom is not of this world". Jesus was totally and unequivocally devoted to surrendering to persecution.

Peace2God'sPeople

Here you are wrong again.

Fighting for freedom: is not against Christianity. Constantine was fighting.

Jesus completely passive: wrong again: Give what of Caesar to Caesar.

AND when Jesus was hit, he turned and asked: Why do you hit me?
Have you ever heard of the wandering Jew?

You are so muddled, or trying to muddy the water for those who are not sure!!!

Either you are in a twist, or trying to propagate your twisted views.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace all

Peace2God'speople..
You are still confusing you own mind.
I have said in my posts that you are confusing denominational religions with the faith of Christianity.

You seemed to have done that in your last post.

What you said earlier, about your decades of pretenting to be a Christian. I feel that you truley never were.

There are millions of people who spend their lives constantly being involved with their churches in many aspects, and yet never saved.

Being involved with your church for decades, and having so-called Christian brotherhood, doesn't give you salvation brother. Only Jesus does. Not budda, not muhammed or a11ah. Just Jesus.

Some wont agree with me on this. But I highly recommend that you leave your church now. Then you make you Holy Bible your only church on a daily basis.

Then, after time, you will crave being in church, for all the right reasons.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Israel

[sardab]

Peace, I sent a message to you. Please check your inbox.

(Aineo, he is not banned from the forum like Ursus, right?)

[Peace2God'sPeople]

Aineo quoted:

Matthew 22:17-22
17 "Tell us therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?" 18 But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? 19 "Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21 They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." 22 And hearing this, they marveled, and leaving Him, they went away. NAS

Romans 13:1-7
13:1 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. NAS

Aineo replied,

Our physical life is under the control of secular governments, our spiritual life should be under the control of the Holy Spirit.

If my government calls upon me to sin in the physical realm then I should submit? If it asks me to commit adultery, shall I do that also but do it in the right spirit? Please Aineo, that doesn't make sense.

Also, Jesus speaks of taxes. Paul, on the other hand, extends this to government.

Centuries later, Constantine would twist all of this even more and give us the Nicene Creed, which Leo Tolstoy has eloquently written, is not functionally compatible with the Sermon on the Mount. The latter calls Christians to act while the former calls on Christians to just place faith in Jesus and let Him take care of the rest.

God Bless,
Peace2God'sPeople

[galaxy]

Centuries later, Constantine would twist all of this even more and give us the Nicene Creed, which Leo Tolstoy has eloquently written, is not functionally compatible with the Sermon on the Mount. The latter calls Christians to act while the former calls on Christians to just place faith in Jesus and let Him take care of the rest.

Peace2God'sPeople

Sorry, you are muddled again, it was not Constantine that gave us the Creed.

Sorry, but it seems that all your postings are nothing but muddle!!!

Either a confused mind, or somebody who want to confuse!!!

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Peace all

Peace2God'speople..
Ya know, I truley feel that you never were a Christian, and you have no desire to be.

Just the fact that you started this self-asorbed thread, along with others, on a mus1im forum says it all.

I have prayed for you several times, yet you seem to have nothing but contemp with Christainity, and continue to have it with your further posts.

If you feel rightous in pointing out early Christianity faults, conducted by sinful men, but yet refuse to research the past of 1slam, then the both of you deserve each other.

Oh btw. if the private message sardab sent you is the deciding factor in you desent to 1slam, then it is truley sad that you would let him influence you.

If you read all of his posts on this forum, you will see that he takes any mus1im atrocity, and blames it directly on Israel. That's the name of the mus1im game, placing blame.

Yet you blame Christianity for your own faults, maybe you should be a mus1im. God forgive me.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Israel

[Peace2God'sPeople]

Sorry, you are muddled again, it was not Constantine that gave us the Creed.

No, of course Constantine did not personally write the Nicene Creed. But did he not preside over this council in AD 325?

There are plenty of Christians and theologians who are ready to admit that the endorsement of the Christian church by the Roman government had a lasting effect on the personality of the Christian church.

Peace2God'sPeople

[Peace2God'sPeople]

TruthSeeker Joshua said:

Just the fact that you started this self-asorbed thread, along with others, on a mus1im forum says it all.

I didn't start this thread.

Peace2God'sPeople

[galaxy]

Peace all

Peace2God'speople..
Ya know, I truley feel that you never were a Christian, and you have no desire to be.


Yet you blame Christianity for your own faults, maybe you should be a mus1im. God forgive me.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Israel

Truth Seeker-Joshua:
You should have added: or are a muslim all along

[galaxy]

Peace all

Peace2God'speople..

Oh btw. if the private message sardab sent you is the deciding factor in you desent to 1slam, then it is truley sad that you would let him influence you.

This is just a cheap act!!!

[galaxy]

Sorry, you are muddled again, it was not Constantine that gave us the Creed.

No, of course Constantine did not personally write the Nicene Creed. But did he not preside over this council in AD 325?

There are plenty of Christians and theologians who are ready to admit that the endorsement of the Christian church by the Roman government had a lasting effect on the personality of the Christian church.

Peace2God'sPeople

Wrong again, Constantine DID NOT preside over the Nicene Coucil.

Please name those " plenty of Christians and theologians who are ready to admit...." and stop posting wrong and misleading distorted statements.

[Peace2God'sPeople]

Galaxy,

I'll admit to not being a heavyweight on Roman history, but this following quote is straight from Encarta.


Constantine intervened in ecclesiastical affairs to achieve unity; he presided over the first ecumenical council of the church at Nicaea in 325.
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Peace2God'sPeople

[galaxy]

Galaxy,

I'll admit to not being a heavyweight on Roman history, but this following quote is straight from Encarta.


Constantine intervened in ecclesiastical affairs to achieve unity; he presided over the first ecumenical council of the church at Nicaea in 325.
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Peace2God'sPeople

Peace2God'sPeople:

Beloved Friend:

If this is your source about Christianity, and you post here these childish references on such maters, then:

1. It shows how little you know about Christianity, which showed in all your postings.

2. You don't think much of your audience and want to take them for a ride.

3. You were never a Christian, not alone speaking in tongues!!!

Have you heard of the story of the guy who pretended to be a Christian and ended up by being one.

[galaxy]

Galaxy,

I'll admit to not being a heavyweight on Roman history, but this following quote is straight from Encarta.


Constantine intervened in ecclesiastical affairs to achieve unity; he presided over the first ecumenical council of the church at Nicaea in 325.
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Peace2God'sPeople

Peace2God'sPeople:

Beloved Friend:

Please try better references, there is a lot there on the net.

Have you heard of the story of the guy who pretended to be a Christian and ended up by being one.

[Peace2God'sPeople]

Galaxy,

Due to the state of Christianity today and, more specifically, the state of marriage in Christianity today, I can see why you would rather focus on branding me as an impostor rather than considering my observations.

As far as the emperors of the Roman empire go, whether it was Constantine or Theodosius who finalized the church's trinitarian beliefs in the Nicene Creed, it is irrelevant in a discussion of Christianity's present woes.

My whole point is that Christianity seems to be floundering in its attempt to produce happy, wholesome, stable families.

Gary Chapman, author of The Five Love Languages admits to counseling many women with sincere Christian devotion who, because their husbands are not "pushing the right buttons" are ready to chunk them out the door.

Christianity has no answer for this except to counsel men all over the country to try desperately to push the right buttons. Some marriages are helped, many are not.

Christianity's key theologies prevent any real punishment for adultery and lack any real plan for maintaining chastity. Adolescent boys and girls are free to meet and roam as they please as long as we "know where they are" and "pray for them" and "try to establish firm rules".

Again, Hallmark's movies are proof that Christianity's glory days are in the past when the lack of technology, not faith, maintained women, men, and children, in their proper roles.

But, I know, I know, you claim I was never a Christian and that I haven't scoured the evidence concerning Constantine, Theodosius, Arius, and the controversy over the Trinity so therefor none of the aforementioned observations regarding the state of Christianity are of any validity.

BTW, I refuse to respond to your pleas for me to prove my Christianity. It would be pointless and any information I divulged to prove it would be an invasion of my privacy on a public forum.

Respond to the observations I have made or choose not to. It is up to you.

Peace2God'sPeople

[Loki]

Due to the state of Christianity today and, more specifically, the state of marriage in Christianity today, I can see why you would rather focus on branding me as an impostor rather than considering my observations.

i guess that's what secularisation is bringing forth... the west loses it's christian identity, and people still think it's entirly christian and then seek for the next best thing because they urge to have an identity, and 'a good one' if possible (including brotherhood, and sacred marriages). And what's better then the trendy religion of the moment? in the 70's it was hinduism, buddhism and neo-gnostic movements.... now Islam is the trendsetter for the moment.... good thing about such trends is that like the 70's you have the gullible converts going up front... and then you have the rising critiscism against it. So will it happen - God willing - with Islam too.

As far as the emperors of the Roman empire go, whether it was Constantine or Theodosius who finalized the church's trinitarian beliefs in the Nicene Creed, it is irrelevant in a discussion of Christianity's present woes.

The concept of God's triune nature is found all over the new testament, without having the need for the Nicene Creed to define it (cause face it, that's all it really did... define the christian doctrine of the moment-in agreeance with scripture)

My whole point is that Christianity seems to be floundering in its attempt to produce happy, wholesome, stable families.

how many christian families do you know? how many muslim families do you know? In christianity marriage is a burden and a blessing... something if you choose for it, you are obliged to care and work for the sanctity of it. In Islam that is taking for granted, your wife is breeding material who is inferior and may get beaten if you 'sence' that she doesn't love you, and she can't even leave if the guy brings home 3 other girls. Even today many women are being abused by muslims, and the most people that leave islam are women.... for a reason! Even muhammed his family had turmoil after his death... and many historians write that muhammed couldn't control all his 9 wives, and that some refused to sleep with him or even wanted to leave.

Muslims have no better families then christians and atheists... in fact considering the latter neither two (christians and secularized humanists) teach that you can beat your woman or threat them as inferior.

Gary Chapman, author of The Five Love Languages admits to counseling many women with sincere Christian devotion who, because their husbands are not "pushing the right buttons" are ready to chunk them out the door.

You think Muslim men push all the right buttons? or Jewish men? or Hindu men? any man for that matter.... In Islam it is a shame to the family to file for divorce... so it's an unspoken rule in their family tradition not to seperate even if the man is beating the women into a wheelchair or if they fight daily in front of the children....

Christianity has no answer for this except to counsel men all over the country to try desperately to push the right buttons. Some marriages are helped, many are not.

You can't generalize christians, because some men can't please their wife... this happens in all cultures and all religions! The west is the only part of the world that makes statistics! that doesn't mean that if the middle east doesn't make statistics that they don't have any problems.

Christianity's key theologies prevent any real punishment for adultery and lack any real plan for maintaining chastity. Adolescent boys and girls are free to meet and roam as they please as long as we "know where they are" and "pray for them" and "try to establish firm rules".

Christianity hasn't had a theocrathic nation since the enlightment period.... and the punishments for adultraty are divorce and with it financial and sociall loss including children... some men would give their right hand to see their children again, i doubt this is not a good punishment... and in the end the real and only just punishment is with God ! not in the hands of a Iranian butcher (who is filled with sin himself) cutting of the gentalia of the adulterer.

Again, Hallmark's movies are proof that Christianity's glory days are in the past when the lack of technology, not faith, maintained women, men, and children, in their proper roles.

Well i'm a movie buff and i can tell you, movies never tell the truth, the old movies had a different public and a different time... more people of higher class went to the theater who weren't aware or didn't want to know the violence and drugs that roamed the poorer parts of the cities... Every blockbuster movie were romantic ones, about Ginger rogers and Fred astaire dancing cheek to cheek, Clark Gable not giving a damn, Gene Kelly singing in the rain and even the largest monkey -King Kong- in showbussiness fell in love with a girl.

Acctually people should be glad that we got past that time of indifferince... the 20th century is the century the West became aware that other people are in need (wheter that be in third world countries or in your own town)... the west and particullary the US (christian nation) are the greatest and most engaged suppliers to countries in need... muslims only care about muslims

But, I know, I know, you claim I was never a Christian and that I haven't scoured the evidence concerning Constantine, Theodosius, Arius, and the controversy over the Trinity so therefor none of the aforementioned observations regarding the state of Christianity are of any validity.

I'm pretty sure you were a christian, i think you converted gullibly without propper research, merely because you 'like Islam', not because it offered you a greater spiritual truth. Alot of non christians do what they like the most, and think it's fiths them (including illegal stuff) but that doesn't mean it's from God.

[Abdullah]

This is just a cheap act!!!

The cheap act is accusing Peace of being someting of which you have right to speak of, and also, You people are such anti-islamics, like wow, if you anti islamics knew sum logic, you should that a source from you about islam is all wrong, since all you have is hate statements, I urge you to drop your childish acts, Let peace be, dont hassle him or slander him, you people dont know this man at all, so stop judging, it be best if you actaully read your own bible, and learn some manners. you people say you are true christians, well i wouldnt wanna be one if you peope are the example, all you do is slander, and you expect other people to believe in your ideal faith? when all you do is talk trash? be more respectful, im pretty sure Jesus (PBUH) woudnt be talking like you guys.

Drop the slandering.

[God_is_love]

Peace2God'sPeople,

I'm sorry that you are beginning to doubt Christianity, and I'm also sorry that you are being branded so negatively. I am sure that your concerns are sincere. A patten I see, however, in your postings, is that you seem to think that the problems of the West is due to the problems and inadequacies (or so you think) of the Christian theology. This is simply not the case. It isn't that the Bible is inadequate but rather that some people refuse follow it wholeheartedly. That doesn't mean the Bible is wrong. It just means that people are wrong for not following the Bible. But our stand should always be, "It is better to obey God rather than man: No matter what society might teach or might do, I will continue to follow the teachings of God and His Holy Word." If we based everything that we do on what everyone else does or how the world does it, then we will surely be in trouble because we live in a sinful world. What matters, however, is what God says to do. This is exactly the reason why Jesus tells us in the Bible that "narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW find it." That way, when we see the world crumbling all around us, and we feel like such a minority (no one wants to lay down their life for their faith anymore, as you say), we can still stand assured that we are in the right way. I invite you to continue to read the Bible and ask for the wisdom that comes only from God, and you will find that God has everything in there that you need to live.

2 Timothy 3:16, 17 says, "All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

I don't know you, but I feel that you are frustrated from your failed marriage, and it's ok to ask God questions, but I pray that you don't give up completely on Him. I can assure you that He hasn't given up on you. Ask God for the peace that passeth all understanding (read Philippians 4:6,7) and He will give it to you.

God Bless You. I pray you will find your way back to the only way, truth, and life.

[Loki]

The cheap act is accusing Peace of being someting of which you have right to speak of, and also, You people are such anti-islamics, like wow, if you anti islamics knew sum logic, you should that a source from you about islam is all wrong, since all you have is hate statements, I urge you to drop your childish acts, Let peace be, dont hassle him or slander him, you people dont know this man at all, so stop judging, it be best if you actaully read your own bible, and learn some manners. you people say you are true christians, well i wouldnt wanna be one if you peope are the example, all you do is slander, and you expect other people to believe in your ideal faith? when all you do is talk trash? be more respectful, im pretty sure Jesus (PBUH) woudnt be talking like you guys.

Muhammed slanders and slaughters zoroaster followers, pagan arabs, christians, jews... he slanders christians, he blaspheme's christianity with his perverted theories and he persecutes the christians...

i have reasons why not to like muhammed as well, and anyone man following that man's actions as truth is af if he did such deeds themselves...

[galaxy]

Galaxy,

As far as the emperors of the Roman empire go, whether it was Constantine or Theodosius who finalized the church's trinitarian beliefs in the Nicene Creed, it is irrelevant in a discussion of Christianity's present woes.

But, I know, I know, you claim I was never a Christian and that I haven't scoured the evidence concerning Constantine, Theodosius, Arius, and the controversy over the Trinity so therefor none of the aforementioned observations regarding the state of Christianity are of any validity.
Peace2God'sPeople

Sorry friend, the highlighted above statements of you are not true, another muddle!

Every thing you mentioned about the early Church (and about Christianity) is untrue.

Why insist on stating something about the early Church when clearly you do not know anything about that?

[Abdullah]

Muhammed slanders and slaughters zoroaster followers, pagan arabs, christians, jews... he slanders christians, he blaspheme's christianity with his perverted theories and he persecutes the christians...

i have reasons why not to like muhammed as well, and anyone man following that man's actions as truth is af if he did such deeds themselves...

there you again, and you expect people to believe in christ when you yourself are being a bad example of a "christian", my friend, where does it say in the bible to slander others? isnt it said Love your enemies?

Ok you have your own reasons, good for you, stop telling people christ is the way when all you do slander/mock other peoples belief, shame on you, dont expect people to follow with an attitude like yours, all your doing is giving the good christians a bad name, All i want you do to is drop the negative thinking on Peace, and you say you have your reasons on Islam, then let PEACE have his reasons on doubting christianity, if you wanna ask why, then do it in a politeful and meaningful manner, you really expect him to return when all you "christians" are attacking him? It seems to me He just proved his point

[Loki]

there you again, and you expect people to believe in christ when you yourself are being a bad example of a "christian", my friend, where does it say in the bible to slander others? isnt it said Love your enemies?

hypocrit you don't even believe yourself in loving your enemies... did muhammed use his arms to hug his enemies or to kill them?

if i say that hitler is a bad man, will you label me as a bad person? when i do the same with muhammed i'm only calling a spade a spade. I can back up why i say these things.

Ok you have your own reasons, good for you, stop telling people christ is the way when all you do slander/mock other peoples belief, shame on you, dont expect people to follow with an attitude like yours, all your doing is giving the good christians a bad name, All i want you do to is drop the negative thinking on Peace

Too afraid Peace might see some truth in what i say? i'm not mocking Muhammed, if i were mocking him i would be lying... yet i am not. And i don't generalize on 'beliefs' i have enormous respect for Siddharthra Gautama and his noble story on how he received Buddhahood, i have enormous respect for Confucius, even Zoroaster, Akhenaton, Bhagat Kabir, Guru Nanak and Baha'lullah... all these i mentioned acctually practised peace! and were very noble men, muhammed was the hitler of his day who is undiservely being worshipped as a prophet and who's teachings are a abonimation to God's word.

How do you ask me to speak positive about Islam? when it their is nothing positive about it!

and you say you have your reasons on Islam, then let PEACE have his reasons on doubting christianity, if you wanna ask why, then do it in a politeful and meaningful manner, you really expect him to return when all you "christians" are attacking him? It seems to me He just proved his point

i'm letting him have his doubts, i'm only giving him my opinion
and about the 'attacking' ever read a book by Ahmed Deedat? or one of Osama Abdallah's webpages? if you think that my debating style is too offensive then your muslim apologetics are no better or even worse.

[Abdullah]

hypocrit you don't even believe yourself in loving your enemies... did muhammed use his arms to hug his enemies or to kill them?

if i say that hitler is a bad man, will you label me as a bad person? when i do the same with muhammed i'm only calling a spade a spade. I can back up why i say these things.

lool, funny, if you read what i actaully wrote, you woulda read that i made a statement in the bible, not Qur'an, and Muhammad (PBUH) did love his enemies, it doesnt mean literally loki, why dont you read the history of the Prophet From a non anti-islamic source? and i dont understand what you are saying when u said if i would label you a bad man? and when you say tings about muhammad (PBUH) all you do is use anti-islamic sources,

Too afraid Peace might see some truth in what i say? i'm not mocking Muhammed, if i were mocking him i would be lying... yet i am not. And i don't generalize on 'beliefs' i have enormous respect for Siddharthra Gautama and his noble story on how he received Buddhahood, i have enormous respect for Confucius, even Zoroaster, Akhenaton, Bhagat Kabir, Guru Nanak and Baha'lullah... all these i mentioned acctually practised peace! and were very noble men, muhammed was the hitler of his day who is undiservely being worshipped as a prophet and who's teachings are a abonimation to God's word.

How do you ask me to speak positive about Islam? when it their is nothing positive about it!

no, peace has already found the truth, Allah has opened his heart and mind, and again more of your anti-islamic junk, dont think that this effects me in any way, for you are only hurting your own soul.

i'm letting him have his doubts, i'm only giving him my opinion
and about the 'attacking' ever read a book by Ahmed Deedat? or one of Osama Abdallah's webpages? if you think that my debating style is too offensive then your muslim apologetics are no better or even worse.

My friend, well state your opinion in a respectful manner than, and let me ask you something, do i attack you like you attack me? just because ahmed deedat "attacked" your belief in a disrespectful way, do you assume just because he did it, that i do to? not one man represent all muslims,

Loki calm down, All i am asking is to represent your belief in a manner and respecful way, you think Jesus (PBUH) would be saying what you say?

[Abdullah]

hypocrit you don't even believe yourself in loving your enemies... did muhammed use his arms to hug his enemies or to kill them?

if i say that hitler is a bad man, will you label me as a bad person? when i do the same with muhammed i'm only calling a spade a spade. I can back up why i say these things.

lool, funny, if you read what i actaully wrote, you woulda read that i made a statement in the bible, not Qur'an, and Muhammad (PBUH) did love his enemies, it doesnt mean literally loki, why dont you read the history of the Prophet From a non anti-islamic source? and i dont understand what you are saying when u said if i would label you a bad man? and when you say tings about muhammad (PBUH) all you do is use anti-islamic sources,

Too afraid Peace might see some truth in what i say? i'm not mocking Muhammed, if i were mocking him i would be lying... yet i am not. And i don't generalize on 'beliefs' i have enormous respect for Siddharthra Gautama and his noble story on how he received Buddhahood, i have enormous respect for Confucius, even Zoroaster, Akhenaton, Bhagat Kabir, Guru Nanak and Baha'lullah... all these i mentioned acctually practised peace! and were very noble men, muhammed was the hitler of his day who is undiservely being worshipped as a prophet and who's teachings are a abonimation to God's word.

How do you ask me to speak positive about Islam? when it their is nothing positive about it!

no, peace has already found the truth, Allah has opened his heart and mind, and again more of your anti-islamic junk, dont think that this effects me in any way, for you are only hurting your own soul.

i'm letting him have his doubts, i'm only giving him my opinion
and about the 'attacking' ever read a book by Ahmed Deedat? or one of Osama Abdallah's webpages? if you think that my debating style is too offensive then your muslim apologetics are no better or even worse.

My friend, well state your opinion in a respectful manner than, and let me ask you something, do i attack you like you attack me? just because ahmed deedat "attacked" your belief in a disrespectful way, do you assume just because he did it, that i do to? not one man represent all muslims,

Loki calm down, All i am asking is to represent your belief in a manner and respecful way, you think Jesus (PBUH) would be saying what you say?

[Loki]

lool, funny, if you read what i actaully wrote, you woulda read that i made a statement in the bible, not Qur'an, and Muhammad (PBUH) did love his enemies, it doesnt mean literally loki, why dont you read the history of the Prophet From a non anti-islamic source? and i dont understand what you are saying when u said if i would label you a bad man? and when you say tings about muhammad (PBUH) all you do is use anti-islamic sources,

how can quoting the quran and hadiths be anti-islamic? please tell me... and i've read the history from a non-islamic source that is the problem, do you not see! all what muslims do is glorify muhammed and the four caliphs war as something holy. That the slitting of the man's throat, the raping of pagan females, the cutting of the thiefs hands, the slashing of the adultress and the persecution of the non believers is all something divine... any man believing this is rotten in soul and mind my friend, not me.

Too afraid Peace might see some truth in what i say? i'm not mocking Muhammed, if i were mocking him i would be lying... yet i am not. And i don't generalize on 'beliefs' i have enormous respect for Siddharthra Gautama and his noble story on how he received Buddhahood, i have enormous respect for Confucius, even Zoroaster, Akhenaton, Bhagat Kabir, Guru Nanak and Baha'lullah... all these i mentioned acctually practised peace! and were very noble men, muhammed was the hitler of his day who is undiservely being worshipped as a prophet and who's teachings are a abonimation to God's word.

How do you ask me to speak positive about Islam? when it their is nothing positive about it!

no, peace has already found the truth, Allah has opened his heart and mind, and again more of your anti-islamic junk, dont think that this effects me in any way, for you are only hurting your own soul.

Or... what Peace has found is a heresy, He closed his heart and his mind to God's word... and i am only defending truth here, i'm not trying to win a popularity contest.

i'm letting him have his doubts, i'm only giving him my opinion
and about the 'attacking' ever read a book by Ahmed Deedat? or one of Osama Abdallah's webpages? if you think that my debating style is too offensive then your muslim apologetics are no better or even worse.

My friend, well state your opinion in a respectful manner than, and let me ask you something, do i attack you like you attack me? just because ahmed deedat "attacked" your belief in a disrespectful way, do you assume just because he did it, that i do to? not one man represent all muslims,

My opinion is respectfull, it may sound harsh to you that i don't accuse muhammed as thief and murderer in a subtile way but i ain't lying.
and Ahmed Deedat's only a dime in a dozen, this forum alone is filled with self loving muslim apologetics.

Loki calm down, All i am asking is to represent your belief in a manner and respecful way, you think Jesus (PBUH) would be saying what you say?

Jesus would of stood up to defend the word of God yes, i don't know in what manner or how he would of done it... yet of what i believe and feel, defending the word of God is part of my duty.

[galaxy]

loki, why dont you read the history of the Prophet From a non anti-islamic source? and i dont understand what you are saying when u said if i would label you a bad man? and when you say tings about muhammad (PBUH) all you do is use anti-islamic sources,

A scientific mind must read the different views about a topic and then judge what he thinks is right.

Islamic sources may be nothing but a mouth piece of lies.
You need to check that what they say is truth.
There is no harm in reading different sources tackling the same subject.
What you label as ant-islamic sources may be the ones that tell the truth.

[Sevryn45]

To Peace2Godspeople

Let me tell you somehting my fried I seen the road, I walked it and I have been on it for most of my life, its a broad road that leads away from spiritual truth of who God is was and always will be.

Clear your mind, let God lead you instead of being influenced by other people. You only get one chance this is it, there are no second chances; if you think for one minute that Christians are less of sinners then Muslims or vice versa you are wrong. No one in this world is righteous, no not even one, we deserve to be going to Hell but God so loved us that he paid our debts and now begs us to come to him.

You need to mediate my friend, if i were you I would spend the next to to 3 years of your life doing research on biblical history, scripture etc. I know that if you dedicate yourself God won't forsake you, I am nobody special a sinner like you who God loves, I did not deserve his grace I did not earn it, yet he gave it to me freely.

If you are who you say you are you were never a Christian to begin with, you're a secular humanist who knows completely nothing about our faith and our God.

[sardab]

Oh btw. if the private message sardab sent you is the deciding factor in you desent to 1slam, then it is truley sad that you would let him influence you.

If you read all of his posts on this forum, you will see that he takes any mus1im atrocity, and blames it directly on Israel. That's the name of the mus1im game, placing blame.

Yet you blame Christianity for your own faults, maybe you should be a mus1im. God forgive me.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Israel

So many of you made unfounded assumption that I influenced Peace. If you had read his former posts, you would see that he came here with mature ideas. It is just that some of our views intersected at certain points, and I answered some of his questions related to Islam. Stop acting on conjectures!

[galaxy]

To Peace2Godspeople

Let me tell you somehting my fried I seen the road, I walked it and I have been on it for most of my life, its a broad road that leads away from spiritual truth of who God is was and always will be.

Clear your mind, let God lead you instead of being influenced by other people. You only get one chance this is it, there are no second chances; if you think for one minute that Christians are less of sinners then Muslims or vice versa you are wrong. No one in this world is righteous, no not even one, we deserve to be going to Hell but God so loved us that he paid our debts and now begs us to come to him.

You need to mediate my friend, if i were you I would spend the next to to 3 years of your life doing research on biblical history, scripture etc. I know that if you dedicate yourself God won't forsake you, I am nobody special a sinner like you who God loves, I did not deserve his grace I did not earn it, yet he gave it to me freely.

If you are who you say you are you were never a Christian to begin with, you're a secular humanist who knows completely nothing about our faith and our God.

Have you heard of the one who pretended to be a Christian,
and ended by being one.

May The Dear Lord open All Muslims hearts to see his light.

[Peace2God'sPeople]

I don't if these thoughts would be "approved" by Islam, yet nevertheless, here they are:

It seems to me that God gave Jesus this message for mankind.

Overcome evil by the aggressive use of love. Jesus was so intent on his teachings concerning the "Kingdom of God" that he was telling people to abandon their parents and sell all their possessions to follow him and spread his teachings.

He said:

Do good to those who persecute you and, in every good deed or holy dedication, make sure that they are done as anonymously as possible and in private (yes, I paraphrased).

It might have worked, who knows. It seemed to be working for a few hundred years. Many Christians refused to fight for Rome and were willing to die before bowing to the Emperor. In many cases, they also really seemed to love and take care of each other. So the Romans got smart and with the help of the priesthood corrupted it into a religion that served both of them.

The priesthood and the government both wanted their "cut" and as long as the priests could turn Christians into tenth giving church goers who would spread the gospel of church attendance and as long as the government could have Christians pay their taxes and be willing to fight, kill, maim and destroy in the name of the state, both would be happy.

Perhaps once God saw that man had successfully corrupted the teachings of Jesus in such a way that it was unlikely anyone would ever hear Jesus true, uncorrupted teachings again, he decided to give Muhammad a message that called for mankind's submission. This time, God was unwilling to send another message of pure, unconditional love. No, this time God was ready to tell mankind that "I am going to establish my authority and I will be praised if I have to command it".

You see, there is a definite pattern in the Old Testament of God striving with man. God gives man something good, man corrupts it, and God gets impatient with man and sends down destruction and a new covenant.

Jesus' message had real potential (and perhaps contained the "highest truth"). Those following his teachings could be aggressively and anonymously (when possible) blessing the world with their unending giving. You see, instead of joining in the "public hate" for their country's enemy, they could be sending people in that country gifts and messages of love in their attempts to be the peacemakers that Jesus called them to be. At the same time, these followers of Jesus could be making sure to do good to people who persecuted them or hated them for any reason. However, to really bless people in this way takes time and money. To do either of the aforementioned things would not make a country's government or a religion's priesthood very happy, because it doesn't serve their financial interest very well.

From the government's perspective, I want you to be a member of my country first, and a Christian second. As a member of the priesthood, I want you to be a member of my church first, and be a real Christian second. In both cases, the potential for true effectiveness as a Christian is highly corrupted by their primary allegiances.

And I am not the only one who has noticed that making Jesus divine is an excellent way to de-emphasize the importance of the message He sent by replacing it with much more marketable one "Jesus is God". After all, who really wants to do good to their enemies or turn the other cheek? To most Christians, that is crazy talk, and they refuse to do those things "literally".

So

God seems to be saying to man through Islam "You cannot handle such a noble message, I will give you a harsher, stricter, law, for, one way or another I will be praised and remembered by my people."

And as adultery has always been on his "Top Ten List" of things that are important to him, Islam's strictness concerning this seems to be right in line with God's heart on the matter.

I don't even know how God can bear America's devotion to adultery. Not only is it everywhere, but as I have said, so many Christians have watched and still watch it performed by Hollywood's idols. If so few Christians are willing to be truly Christlike, why wouldn't God decide to send another, more harsh message.

As I have said, the pattern for God doing this with mankind is all over the Old Testament.

In fact, I treat my children the same way. I will do my best to love them and guide them into doing right, but if they continue to disobey me-I will put a stop to it and when I do I will assert myself and compel my children to submit to my authority. There will also be an increase in accountability.

Sure, I can agree with many Christians that the love that Jesus speaks of is the most ideal teaching, but God has proven himself impatient in the past, and, by the look of things in America right now, He should be.

Jesus most challenging, yet powerful teachings from the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount, get such little respect from today's church for a reason, people would rather emphasize who Jesus is, than what Jesus said.

In fact, the only use the church has for Jesus' beautiful teachings is that they can be used as evidence that Jesus is God. No one really expects them to actually be followed.

Peace2God'sPeople

[Loki]

oh heresy, heresy, heresy

Peace2God's People

first...

Jesus didn't come to tell a jolly good philosophy to mankind... we allready had Plato and Aristotles who brought us that. Jesus came for the remission of sin, the lamb to the slaughter, the defeat of the devil... the given salvation and the confirmation of the promise... the good news!

You are willing to believe that the teachings are of the highest order, you believe them to be true, but you don't believe that his diety in the NT is true... so you have selective treatment on how you read the bible, your a gnostic... and picking stuff from the bible wich you like says more about you then about the bible

Islam is no more divine then the Nazi's were... who did exactly the same.... exterminate and persecute a ethic group (nazis => jews, gypsies, slavic people ---- Muslims => jews, christians, zoroastrians, buddhists and hindu's) because we are superior (nazis => ubermenschen --- muslims => are the only people who's actions and words are correct according to muhammed, including killing and persecuting)...

If you think Islam is divine then so are the nazis for establishing a state of dictatorship... the only thing you like more about muslims is that unlike hitler muhammed proclaimed himself prophet, and unlinke hitler muhammed made a religion out of his fascist regime...

If Islam is divine then God is a fascist.

It seems to me that God gave Jesus this message for mankind.

Jesus IS the message for mankind, Jesus IS The Word our Lord, Brother and Father.

Overcome evil by the aggressive use of love. Jesus was so intent on his teachings concerning the "Kingdom of God" that he was telling people to abandon their parents and sell all their possessions to follow him and spread his teachings.

He still is, and people still do... maybe you have grown so decadent that you have taken christianity for granted... but people like Joseph De Veuster en Mother Theresa died giving their life to others... these may be famous but these are not loners... missionaries all over the world are giving their life and abanded theirs in giving it fully to God's will.

Do good to those who persecute you and, in every good deed or holy dedication, make sure that they are done as anonymously as possible and in private (yes, I paraphrased).

indeed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand does.

It might have worked, who knows. It seemed to be working for a few hundred years. Many Christians refused to fight for Rome and were willing to die before bowing to the Emperor. In many cases, they also really seemed to love and take care of each other. So the Romans got smart and with the help of the priesthood corrupted it into a religion that served both of them.

Many christians are still dieing in muslim coutntries for just like the romans forced them to convert to pagans... the christians refuse to convert to islam and die in the process... merely because Christ has conquered all the pagan nations allready doesn't mean that christianity died with it.

The priesthood and the government both wanted their "cut" and as long as the priests could turn Christians into tenth giving church goers who would spread the gospel of church attendance and as long as the government could have Christians pay their taxes and be willing to fight, kill, maim and destroy in the name of the state, both would be happy.

yeah, politics, nothing more rotten then that... you think muslims don't stab each other in the back when it concerns money? to quote Voltaire

"when it involves money, everyone is of the same religion"... it's disgusting but true for the general majority of the world. Give someone power and it will most likely corrupt you.

Perhaps once God saw that man had successfully corrupted the teachings of Jesus in such a way that it was unlikely anyone would ever hear Jesus true, uncorrupted teachings again, he decided to give Muhammad a message that called for mankind's submission. This time, God was unwilling to send another message of pure, unconditional love. No, this time God was ready to tell mankind that "I am going to establish my authority and I will be praised if I have to command it".

Yeah, God in his free time looked down on earth "oh dang, shouldn't have done that trick with replacing Jesus with a look a like", "i'm so impotent, why do i even bother, now i can start all over again, tss tss"

and for all you know with that reasoning why didn't God gave the message to the Prophet Manes? or the Prophet Joseph Smith? cause both claimed that the bible is corrupted and that they are the next best thing and the last and true prophet... why muhammed above these two? please tell me

and maybe God said again, "oh no, not again, i can't work with these humans... i'm gonna send baha'lullah to explain everything all over, tss tss, i'm so impotent, how on earth are they still gonna believe me with all my impotence"

You see, there is a definite pattern in the Old Testament of God striving with man. God gives man something good, man corrupts it, and God gets impatient with man and sends down destruction and a new covenant.

God was the protector of Israel, because Israel had to protect the Word of God who would produce the saviour for mankind... it didn't own Israel to start a jihad against unbelievers all over the world. The new covenant is not a abrogation of the old, it's a fullfillment... even the Jews mainly say that what Jesus teaches is Judaism and in full agreeance with the old covenant (excluding the messianic parts, the ressurection and Jesus being the son of God).

From the government's perspective, I want you to be a member of my country first, and a Christian second. As a member of the priesthood, I want you to be a member of my church first, and be a real Christian second. In both cases, the potential for true effectiveness as a Christian is highly corrupted by their primary allegiances.

what is in a man is not what you profess you are, but what you do... you are a christian by your actions not by what you fanaticly rant... you cannot seperate one from another... your christian being is not a shizofrenic state of mind in wich you can choose something to be on second place... if you serve two masters, you will love one and disregard the other

And I am not the only one who has noticed that making Jesus divine is an excellent way to de-emphasize the importance of the message He sent by replacing it with much more marketable one "Jesus is God". After all, who really wants to do good to their enemies or turn the other cheek? To most Christians, that is crazy talk, and they refuse to do those things "literally".

jesus speaks in metaphors, do you think he ment it literal to hate your mother? to pluck out your eye ball? or his many parables? don't tell me you can't see further then your nose is long.

God seems to be saying to man through Islam "You cannot handle such a noble message, I will give you a harsher, stricter, law, for, one way or another I will be praised and remembered by my people."

"well you puny humans are not able to understand a doctrine of compassion and tolerance, i will send you a doctrine of war and hate and kick it into you..." you have very weird and absurd ideas about God

And as adultery has always been on his "Top Ten List" of things that are important to him, Islam's strictness concerning this seems to be right in line with God's heart on the matter.

hundred lashings for women? and men get a free ride?
and does raping count as adultry? cause muslim men can freely rape woman as long as there weren't four witnesses in the room... if you think Islam is so just, why not go live in Saudie Arabia instead of the 'decadent' and 'unrighteous' west.

I don't even know how God can bear America's devotion to adultery. Not only is it everywhere, but as I have said, so many Christians have watched and still watch it performed by Hollywood's idols. If so few Christians are willing to be truly Christlike, why wouldn't God decide to send another, more harsh message.

America's isn't devoted on adultary... their are laws against this with big financial and social losses wich mostly ruins lives completely...

As I have said, the pattern for God doing this with mankind is all over the Old Testament.

ever heard of progressive revelation? you judge christianity but you don't even understand it.

In fact, I treat my children the same way. I will do my best to love them and guide them into doing right, but if they continue to disobey me-I will put a stop to it and when I do I will assert myself and compel my children to submit to my authority. There will also be an increase in accountability.

you also let your children sleep with muhammed? if he asked your nine year old daughter as his wife?

Sure, I can agree with many Christians that the love that Jesus speaks of is the most ideal teaching, but God has proven himself impatient in the past, and, by the look of things in America right now, He should be.

God is all forgiving not impatient... i don't know what idea you have about God, but i sence that you try to reflect your own personality on God... you would love to be a good man but know you are incapable of being that, so you choose the next best thing... being a wolve dressed in a sheep's clothe

Jesus most challenging, yet powerful teachings from the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount, get such little respect from today's church for a reason, people would rather emphasize who Jesus is, than what Jesus said.

I don't know wich church you go to, if you think that... but your generalisations on christians is very much insulting.

In fact, the only use the church has for Jesus' beautiful teachings is that they can be used as evidence that Jesus is God. No one really expects them to actually be followed.

where verses are used as a certain proof is only in apologetics... most churches that i know of stick to preaching only (when in sermon or eucharisty).

[Peace2God'sPeople]

Loki said

You are willing to believe that the teachings are of the highest order, you believe them to be true, but you don't believe that his diety in the NT is true... so you have selective treatment on how you read the bible, your a gnostic... and picking stuff from the bible wich you like says more about you then about the bible

The Bible itself speaks of Jesus in some very different tones. Paul's writings and the Gospel of John dominate the "Jesus as Lord" doctrine. When people go out as missionaries to save the rest of the world, they almost always quote from the Gospel of John and then talk about Paul's letters. Sure, Matthew, Mark, and Luke may get honorable mentions for Jesus teachings and miracles, but there is nothing as overt as that which is found in the other material.

Many christians are still dieing in muslim coutntries for just like the romans forced them to convert to pagans... the christians refuse to convert to islam and die in the process... merely because Christ has conquered all the pagan nations allready doesn't mean that christianity died with it.

You must differentiate between what happens and what is called for by the Koran. (I know, don't lecture me about the hadiths or we will get way off topic) Many terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity too.

yeah, politics, nothing more rotten then that... you think muslims don't stab each other in the back when it concerns money? to quote Voltaire

"when it involves money, everyone is of the same religion"... it's disgusting but true for the general majority of the world. Give someone power and it will most likely corrupt you.

Sure, but when it comes to usury, the west is alot more susceptible to this curse than islam where it is forbidden.

what is in a man is not what you profess you are, but what you do... you are a christian by your actions not by what you fanaticly rant... you cannot seperate one from another... your christian being is not a shizofrenic state of mind in wich you can choose something to be on second place... if you serve two masters, you will love one and disregard the other

Christians in western nations are in a constant state of psychizophrenia (I don't think I spelled it right either) as they constantly give in to materialism and then constantly have to ask for forgiveness

well you puny humans are not able to understand a doctrine of compassion and tolerance, i will send you a doctrine of war and hate and kick it into you..." you have very weird and absurd ideas about God

You should not generalize all of Islam.

America's isn't devoted on adultary... their are laws against this with big financial and social losses wich mostly ruins lives completely...

Loki, you must be kidding. Women get away with it in marriage, file for divorce and then still get the children.

Again, out of time

Peace,
Peace2God'sPeople

[Loki]

The Bible itself speaks of Jesus in some very different tones. Paul's writings and the Gospel of John dominate the "Jesus as Lord" doctrine. When people go out as missionaries to save the rest of the world, they almost always quote from the Gospel of John and then talk about Paul's letters. Sure, Matthew, Mark, and Luke may get honorable mentions for Jesus teachings and miracles, but there is nothing as overt as that which is found in the other material.

So? what's the problem here? Isn't the Gospel of John divine enough for you? even when you know it's in agreeance with the previous gospels (even when it concerns His diety).

Many christians are still dieing in muslim coutntries for just like the romans forced them to convert to pagans... the christians refuse to convert to islam and die in the process... merely because Christ has conquered all the pagan nations allready doesn't mean that christianity died with it.

You must differentiate between what happens and what is called for by the Koran. (I know, don't lecture me about the hadiths or we will get way off topic) Many terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity too.

euhm, why differentiate? really, why should i? muslims today are only still continuening a war muhammed started... the war against non-muslims, the dar al harb against the dar al islam. The moderate muslims only evolved out of that brutal nature and don't look to muhammed anymore for their role model but too secularism... Islam is dieing and the true muslims, the warlords and extremists are kicking and screaming to prevent that from happening by attacking the people who bring decadent secularism to their countries (the west, the jews, the world power america). And many things have been done in the name of christianity... things wich were never called upon by Christ himself. In the hadiths and the quran you see some very brutal conquering and persecuting ordered by Muhammed himself... and by the four holy caliphs after him as well, up untill this very day supportable by hadiths and the quran, it's a doctrine of war because it's founded in it.

Sure, but when it comes to usury, the west is alot more susceptible to this curse than islam where it is forbidden.

you mean compared to the west compared too the arab world... cause i've seen muslims here in the west with Jeans pants, a nice blonde girl at the back of their scooter while listening to the latest techno CD. And who still believe they are hardcore muslims. You really think that Islam can withstand secularism when it comes to it? better wake up, you're not in love with truth nor with islam but with the culture of the arabs.

Christians in western nations are in a constant state of psychizophrenia (I don't think I spelled it right either) as they constantly give in to materialism and then constantly have to ask for forgiveness

but that IS christianity, constantly asking forgiveness, because we do not diserve what is given us... Christ gave his life for us, so that we do not have to taste death... but what do we do? we betray God's teachings time and time again, we are sinners, and we need repentance...

and that's not shizoprehnia merely a form of humbleness... Muslims are proud of their sins and take their salvation for granted merely because they are muslims (as how they see it) it's a form of arrogance.

well you puny humans are not able to understand a doctrine of compassion and tolerance, i will send you a doctrine of war and hate and kick it into you..." you have very weird and absurd ideas about God

You should not generalize all of Islam.

But that IS Islam. It is founded upon war ! Muhammed alone had more then fourty war campaigns, he raided caravans, persecuted everyone who ridiculed and contradicted him, etc... Not to mention the wars of the caliphs who after him became even more brutal... they created an empire like how Hitler conquered. As Aristotle once said "he who conquered is always right".... merely because the victims aren't around anymore to say to the contrary

America's isn't devoted on adultary... their are laws against this with big financial and social losses wich mostly ruins lives completely...

Loki, you must be kidding. Women get away with it in marriage, file for divorce and then still get the children.

That's positive discrimination when it concerns mothers, and is only normal since the woman instinctly knows how to care more for children then men (alltough this isn't always the case, but generally it is), secondly this doesn't always happen if the man is the caretaker of the family and the woman is for instance an alcoholic or on the brink of insanity the man will get the children... their are many exceptions, distinctions, etc... for it... i'm not a lawyer

but their are so many aspects to a divorce because life isn't just that simple and that black and white as a quran may ask you to believe!

[Peace2God'sPeople]

I wrote,

Jesus most challenging, yet powerful teachings from the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount, get such little respect from today's church for a reason, people would rather emphasize who Jesus is, than what Jesus said.

Loki responded,

I don't know wich church you go to, if you think that... but your generalisations on christians is very much insulting.

Loki,

Can you name me more than a couple of Christian churches (that are on the fringes, I might add) that teach Christians to "turn the other cheek" in all situations?

The normal response to my "turn the other cheek" argument is that it is not absolute and applies more to a general spirit that Christians should have rather than the very literal "Don't fight back against any enemy" one that I would say Jesus meant. As a Christian you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either Christians are supposed to be peace loving and meek or they aren't.

Many early Christians (I know their beliefs were varied) refused to fight for the Romans because Jesus specifically forbade it and said that "my kingdom is not of this world". Jesus' message to the Jews was one that said (paraphrased) "Take heart, your government may hate you and persecute you to the death, but take these things by offering no resistance (turn the other cheek) knowing that Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Jesus even goes so far as to say to "Rejoice, and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way, they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

There is absolutely no hint of a Christian fighting back against an oppressor ( a persecutor ) not in the name of defending himself or his family. The reward for all who are persecuted will be found in heaven. This is either completely Jesus' message or just another impractical teaching. Which is it?

It is assumed by Christians who are in countries where they are a minority that this is a good teaching because it is obvious to them that the more they take part in an active resistance against an oppressive government, the more they become the targets of that country's leadership. Yet, as soon as Christianity becomes the dominant faith in a country, the Christian decides that it must be God's will for them to fight to maintain their freedoms and way of life. A Christian can kill to protect his land but a Muslim can't kill for adultery? Did not Jesus say that if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, that you are to give them your cloak also? As in, your last possessions?

Jesus made no exception when he spoke of oppressors and persecutors. Are we to believe that Jesus only was speaking of governments that were like the Roman government. So if a country seems worse to us, more foreign to us, or has a seemingly more cruel and dangerous dictator, then that changes everything? Do not offer resistance to the Romans, your reward is in heaven, BUT concerning the Iraqis, shoot down their soldiers, arrest their leader, and occupy their country.

No, if Christians want so badly to be the antithesis of what they think Islam is, then they better be ready to be the total antithesis of it.

But I don't see much of that. And I don't hear that preached. Is that preached in your church?

I doubt it seriously. Too many people in the pews with too many fathers and brothers who have already died in defense of their country or who have died in an effort to stop evil dictators (who were, naturally, worse than the Romans). There is no way that any pastor of a mainline denomination who wants to continue to have 95% (or more) of his congregration would ever touch Jesus' message to "turn the other cheek" with a ten foot pole. Touch it, that is, without softening it and doctoring it.

But interestingly enough, the Christians who gentleness and sincerity is the most pronounced are those on the fringes who take this passage to heart.

So, no Loki, most churches are not interested in Jesus' most challenging teachings.

Basically only the Mennonites, the Amish, and the Jehovah's Witnesses, are willing to teach that. That said, the Amish and Jehovah's Witnesses (moreso than Amish) are not considered to be true Christians.

Yet these groups can only accomplish this by adhering to some very strict guidelines for shunning. What do you think of shunning? Is it also cruel like the Muslims or is it necessary?

Or do you stand with the majority of Christians. "I like my country, I like my way of life, and I am going to protect my children and neighbors against my country's enemy so help me God. I will not submit to being ruled over, persecuted, or otherwise mistreated by a foreign power."

You either trust God to take care of you, or you don't.
You are either a people of peace or you aren't.
You can't have it both ways.

Sincerely,
Peace2God'sPeople

[Peace2God'sPeople]

Galaxy said in response to Peace2God'sPeople statements about Christian pacifism:

Here you are wrong again.

Fighting for freedom: is not against Christianity. Constantine was fighting.

I know you are pretty sharp on your history. Do you really want to use Constantine to support this position? After all, Constantine did not even officially accept Christianity personally until his deathbed, he also was eventually more supportive of the Arian Confession than the Nicene Creed. That might still make him a Christian, but not a Trinitarian. The Arian position also gives rise to an increase in the emphasis on works over faith. This tends more toward Christian legalism (extreme legalism being what you accuse Muslims of) than justification by faith.

Are you sure you want to use Constantine's views as a paragon of Christian theology?

No, the first sign that Christians are abandoning their true faith and relaxing into comfortable commercialism is when they decide to abandon their faith that God will protect them and/or reward them for being persecuted.

Case closed. That is how you get from True Christianity to where we are now in the decadent west. Religion of the government, by the government, and for the government.

Peace2God'sPeople

[H2O]

Religion is not something you choose like a peace of clothes wich fith you the best... If you have any value for truth, you'd study the religions.

You say religion is not something you choose like a peace of cloth etc but on the next hand you speak about the value of truth and for him to study the religions. You sound like your going around in circles here Loki.

To study world religion seeking for truth still comes out at the end as choice. Choice is based on what is best for that person as they see as being reality. What maybe truth to you is falsehood to me vise versa. So in the same manner of chosing clothes to wear. You wear that whihc is best for you and that fits you.

Comming from a christian background, you'd at least have to have noticed the theological contradictions, the scriptual plagiarism of christian and jewish folklore and the historical dawn of islam wich is build upon conquering, genocide and mayhem...

The same could be said about Christianity and Judaism with religious comparitive study.

Well of course, if you were a mus1im, your wife couldn't divorce you and you could beat the hell out of her and stone her.

The horse raddish you are posting is not true. A Muslim woman can devorce her husband. She can request devorce based on Islamic law if her husband is mistreating her or violating Islamic law.

If her husband refuses to let her go then she takes it to her wali that will defend her forcing him to pronounce deforce or the matter shall go to court. Do you know what the possession of her wali is ?

Your reading to much online propaganda and tribalistic customs you see some middle easterners do to their women that has nothing to do with islam. Would you like us to take the America culture and the way they respect and treat women and associate it with Christianity ?

My brother, if you have spent years "pretending" to be a Christian, than you never were really a Christian

Then in that case I was never Christian, or Jewish and Aburaees was never muslim as well.

For a man who finds Islam attractive I find your reference to wars fought by Christians out to defend our freedoms as bit odd since Islam has instigated wars to force conversions since its inception.

Sounds like bush programming. Those people whom you claim is your enemy did not attack the US because your FREEDOM to act like an animal and do every unethical and immoral thing on earth that can be done. Their campaign is agaisnt the US government and those who side with it whom sponsor and help Israel.

Osama Bin Ladin whom condoned such attacks expressed these reason for the attacks on TV and not because how you live your lives. The reason you dotn know anything about this is cause your pathetic back twisting Media edited a 2 hour Video to make it seem what was not. I personaly saw the tape when it was first released on Al-Jazera before it aired on western TV whihc edited it down to 3 minutes.

Sorry, you are muddled again, it was not Constantine that gave us the Creed

The teachings of Christianity today as to the nature of G-d was mostly inforced by Constantine whom favored the creed of a particular group over another. Whereas before 325 there was no doctrine of trinity as is taught today. In fact as the belief started to develope other Christians rejected it.

Peace2God'speople..
Ya know, I truley feel that you never were a Christian, and you have no desire to be.

Then in that case every former muslims such as Aburaees whom left islam for Christianity were never Muslim then. You cant have it one way and not have it for the other. (Aburaees I still repect you as a human being do not take offense of this by any means)

Oh btw. if the private message sardab sent you is the deciding factor in you desent to 1slam, then it is truley sad that you would let him influence you

And what do you thing you and the rest of the brady bunch is doing ? Arent you all trying to influence him into persuading him. Goosh man you people dont even see your own disgusting prejudice and wanton display of pure selfishness.

hundred lashings for women? and men get a free ride?
and does raping count as adultry? cause muslim men can freely rape woman as long as there weren't four witnesses in the room... if you think Islam is so just, why not go live in Saudie Arabia instead of the 'decadent' and 'unrighteous' west.

The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. Quran 24:2

It is obvious Loki doesnt know what he is talking about, and doesn know deedly about islamic law other than what is preached to him by his anti islamic websites he got his schooling from.

....In the hadiths and the quran you see some very brutal conquering and persecuting ordered by Muhammed himself...

Would you like us to show you where in the Bible you see some very brutal conquering and persecutiin ordered by Moses etc per the instruction of G-d ? If you thing I dotn know the bible or I was never a Christian just test me.

But that IS Islam. It is founded upon war ! Muhammed alone had more then fourty war campaigns, he raided caravans, persecuted everyone who ridiculed and contradicted him, etc...

Imagine that ! So how did you think Judaism became established during and after the time of Moses (pbuh) ?

That's positive discrimination when it concerns mothers, and is only normal since the woman instinctly knows how to care more for children then men (alltough this isn't always the case, but generally it is), secondly this doesn't always happen if the man is the caretaker of the family and the woman is for instance an alcoholic or on the brink of insanity the man will get the children... their are many exceptions, distinctions, etc... for it... i'm not a lawyer

Oh mankind ! reference your Lord who created you all from a single soul and created from it its companion and He produced from them both many men and women, so reference Allah whom you are dutybound with and your mothers...Quran 4:1

Knock Knock ! Again Loki just blowing with his mouth. Does any one see where fathers are mention in there ? Mothers have a status over fathers in Islam.

All I am seeing is Christians starting to panic cause they are seeing one of their starting to make a turn, or consideration. It got soo frightening that you all starting accusing him of being an imposter. How silly and selfish.

not once have I heard someone say " It is your choice G-d Bless ". No, we heard not a squeel from any of you.

I am going to make reference to Aburaees. When first met him I was in doubt about him ever being muslim as he claimed, this is online what do you expect, but then after listening to him I had no doubt what he use to be. Not once did I insult him about his choice or about what he chose. Liek I will tell him just like I have told many Christian associates of mine "G-d guides whom he pleases and leaves to stray whom he pleases". It is his choice, his execise of his free will but NOOOOOO obviously some Christians dont pratice what the preach.

Why cant you love and respect him like a human being, isnt this more important than the choices he makes in his life that we are not going to be responsable for ?

Peace2God'sPeople, I have read this thread from the begining and I can relate to much what you have expressed. Do that which is right in your mind and soul, use your superior faculties as they should be used and let not feelings cloud your mind. The Shaytaan arrajeem preys on the feelings and emotions of G-d's creatured to lead them away from the truth. I hope that G-d guides you into the right path.

If you choose Christianity, Judaism, or Islam it is your choice and your will be held accountable for your own choices. wassalaam

[Loki]

Can you name me more than a couple of Christian churches (that are on the fringes, I might add) that teach Christians to "turn the other cheek" in all situations?

all of them

The normal response to my "turn the other cheek" argument is that it is not absolute and applies more to a general spirit that Christians should have rather than the very literal "Don't fight back against any enemy" one that I would say Jesus meant. As a Christian you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either Christians are supposed to be peace loving and meek or they aren't.

see, you are unable to see that the bible teaches a personal relationship with God... millions of christians all over the world are restraining their fists in anger... preventing conflicts wheter that be in oppressing governments, pestering at work or simple car accident... turning the other cheek applies to all situations not juste one (the state).

Many early Christians (I know their beliefs were varied) refused to fight for the Romans because Jesus specifically forbade it and said that "my kingdom is not of this world". Jesus' message to the Jews was one that said (paraphrased) "Take heart, your government may hate you and persecute you to the death, but take these things by offering no resistance (turn the other cheek) knowing that Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Jesus even goes so far as to say to "Rejoice, and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way, they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

all true

There is absolutely no hint of a Christian fighting back against an oppressor ( a persecutor ) not in the name of defending himself or his family. The reward for all who are persecuted will be found in heaven. This is either completely Jesus' message or just another impractical teaching. Which is it?

indeed their is no reward for that... yet you believe a religion that gives a reward for killing and slaying in the name of God in order to reach heaven is truthfull... very anti-CHRISTian

"Let those fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumps, we will give him a handsome reward." [4:74]

and those who don't are condemned to hell

It is assumed by Christians who are in countries where they are a minority that this is a good teaching because it is obvious to them that the more they take part in an active resistance against an oppressive government, the more they become the targets of that country's leadership. Yet, as soon as Christianity becomes the dominant faith in a country, the Christian decides that it must be God's will for them to fight to maintain their freedoms and way of life. A Christian can kill to protect his land but a Muslim can't kill for adultery? Did not Jesus say that if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, that you are to give them your cloak also? As in, your last possessions?

It also says “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.” If you see two kids trying to kill each other... and you have the power to end, come between them and solve that... you see it happening, but you just stand their and look? do you think that such is noble? when you have the power to end a conflict but don't because you are indifferent of evil.

see just like what the UN does with Peacekeepers... so must christians be as well in their daily lives wheter that be in family issues, at work or in geopolitics that all differs from the power that you have. and their are no christian nations anymore you are comparing apples with oranges...

These are the eight principles according to Saint Augustine (early church father) for a just war:
(1) a punitive conception of war,
(2) assessment of the evil of war in terms of the moral evil of attitudes and desires,
(3) a search for authorization for the use of violence,
(4) a dualistic epistemology which gives priority to spiritual goods,
(5) interpretation of evangelical norms in terms of inner attitudes,
(6) passive attitude to authority and social change,
(7) use of Biblical texts to legitimate participation in war, and
( 8 ) an analogical conception of peace. It does not include noncombatant immunity or conscientious objection. A contemporary assessment of the elements is offered.

These are the three principles according to Saint Thomas Aquinas (catholic head theologian):
“In order for a war to be just,
three things are necessary.
(1) the authority of the sovereign....
(2) a just cause....
(3) ... a rightful intention”

these are all noble demands for peace, not for conquering, persecuting and global dominance as islam sets out his rules.

Jesus made no exception when he spoke of oppressors and persecutors. Are we to believe that Jesus only was speaking of governments that were like the Roman government. So if a country seems worse to us, more foreign to us, or has a seemingly more cruel and dangerous dictator, then that changes everything? Do not offer resistance to the Romans, your reward is in heaven, BUT concerning the Iraqis, shoot down their soldiers, arrest their leader, and occupy their country.

See the US is not the embodyment of a christianity... KNOW that other countries then the US excist too... and christianity is a GLOBAL religion. and many christian nations opposed the war remember, even the very pope condemned the war.

And many christians agreed as well? why... because this war was disputable... it's secular politics, geopolitics to be exact. Since i don't know if it was christian to let a dictator fight his own war with his people... (and many other dictators as well for that matter). And when a country wich has the power to end this war of that dictator decides to end his rule it's disputable to me if giving peace to a country wich was at war with itself was so evil... of course noone knew this war was gonna be so hard in advance.

Anyhow you condemn secular politics for making war's who have as goal peace... yet you support wars for global dominance on the other hand. Looks like you have two different standards for everything, speaking with a splitteth tongue.

"When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly." [17:16]

I doubt it seriously. Too many people in the pews with too many fathers and brothers who have already died in defense of their country or who have died in an effort to stop evil dictators (who were, naturally, worse than the Romans). There is no way that any pastor of a mainline denomination who wants to continue to have 95% (or more) of his congregration would ever touch Jesus' message to "turn the other cheek" with a ten foot pole. Touch it, that is, without softening it and doctoring it.

but that is what happening in islam, communist and other dictator countries... christians are turning the other cheek still, can you not see? or do you only see the glory of the palestine seventeen year old polishing his kalishnikov praying to allah that he gets the chance to kill as many jews as possible with it... or are you at peace by judging secular geo politics wars as christian?... and i guess you hated the Kosovo war as well... maybe you'd rather had the massive genocide to be even bigger, would that have been christian?

http://members.allstream.net/~komiko/persecution.html

But interestingly enough, the Christians who gentleness and sincerity is the most pronounced are those on the fringes who take this passage to heart. So, no Loki, most churches are not interested in Jesus' most challenging teachings.

your prejuice sounds like you take it personal for some reason, i don't why you are so bittered. But i assure you that the message is alive and well from my experiences.

Basically only the Mennonites, the Amish, and the Jehovah's Witnesses, are willing to teach that. That said, the Amish and Jehovah's Witnesses (moreso than Amish) are not considered to be true Christians.

i don't know Amish that's only some christian group in the US if i'm not mistaken who is very conservative and has some Old Testament customs still in use... i always thought they were christians, but who take it too literally... anyway i can't comment on them since i don't know if what they teach is christian.... what i do know from the Yehova Witnessess is that have teachings that abrogate the bible in so much that salvation becomes unatainable. I think it's great they teach to turn the other cheek, but that doesn't make their other teachings truthfull does it, merely mixing the truth with the lies, like islam did.

Yet these groups can only accomplish this by adhering to some very strict guidelines for shunning. What do you think of shunning? Is it also cruel like the Muslims or is it necessary?

i can only give my personal opinion about that, wich may differ from one christian to another to my knowledge they shun the world because it has grown decadent in their opinion too them they think it is neccerary... i think in my opinion that this is running away from the world, and a christian must take up his struggles. not run from them.

Or do you stand with the majority of Christians. "I like my country, I like my way of life, and I am going to protect my children and neighbors against my country's enemy so help me God. I will not submit to being ruled over, persecuted, or otherwise mistreated by a foreign power."

if i lived in 43-45 and the germans were invading Belgium, would i have fought or would i have try and protected my family, trying to flee to savety too Brittain. Well that depends you know, a christian must abide the rules of the country as well... and just like when Jesus spoke to Pilate that they who handed him over are more responsible for his death then he who commanded it. In that way, if Belgium (in wartime) drafted me to fight for our safety. The drafting will be not of my choice. What would make me unchristian if i acctually wanted to fight and kill people, then i would be more responsible for my actions then if i didn't. If the drafting wasn't their i would non-violently protect my family even if i had to get martyred over it for their protection.

You either trust God to take care of you, or you don't.
You are either a people of peace or you aren't.
You can't have it both ways.

what reasoning, then i ask you:

would you allow foreign genocides, or won't?

[Loki]

Religion is not something you choose like a peace of clothes wich fith you the best... If you have any value for truth, you'd study the religions.

You say religion is not something you choose like a peace of cloth etc but on the next hand you speak about the value of truth and for him to study the religions. You sound like your going around in circles here Loki.

acctually i ment with "you can't choose religions like a peace of cloths":
that you can't just pick a religion out of the blue without any study in advanced... Just how like New Agers pick the next best spiritual Swami lesson because it sounds spiritual an divine too them. They just pick religions to fill some hole they have in their life and need to fill it with something that gives them meaning... but giving someone meaning doesn't equal giving someone truth.

the people that choose religion like a peace of clothes are seeking a meaning in life not truth. faith without reason is blind.

and if Peace2God'speople chose it merely because he thinks it fits him, then he choses it out of meaning, not because he found any theological truth in it (wich i haven't seen him debating either)

To study world religion seeking for truth still comes out at the end as choice. Choice is based on what is best for that person as they see as being reality. What maybe truth to you is falsehood to me vise versa. So in the same manner of chosing clothes to wear. You wear that whihc is best for you and that fits you.

acctually no, i disagree... you must have a certain set of demands in order to accept a religion, otherwise your just being naieve... and then your not studying either, but merely looking around. Too me Christianity has the strongest historical and scriptual foundations then any other on earth. It's fullfilling prophecies are unmatched by any religion... and spiritually... today's everyday miracles that happen all over the world are proof that the holy spirit is excisting and guiding christians to the second comming.

Comming from a christian background, you'd at least have to have noticed the theological contradictions, the scriptual plagiarism of christian and jewish folklore and the historical dawn of islam wich is build upon conquering, genocide and mayhem...

The same could be said about Christianity and Judaism with religious comparitive study.

The only major thing Jews dispute with christians is his miracles and prophecies wich make him the Messiah... and that's about it. Other then that their are no theological contradictions with the Old Testament (since it is included and confirms Jesus's message rather then disagreeing with it) and their is no scriptual plagariarism to be found of any kind...

so the external sources against christianity are rather weak... while against Islam it has a wall of arguments that indicate nothing more then a common warlord with megalomania.

The horse raddish you are posting is not true. A Muslim woman can devorce her husband. She can request devorce based on Islamic law if her husband is mistreating her or violating Islamic law.

Your reading to much online propaganda and tribalistic customs you see some middle easterners do to their women that has nothing to do with islam. Would you like us to take the America culture and the way they respect and treat women and associate it with Christianity ?

Women are inferior, and should obey men, if they don't you can beat them [4.34]

Women have fewer rights concerning divorce [2:28]

Life of a woman is worth half of that of a man [Malik, Book 43, Number 43.6.4b]

"A woman is like a private part (sex organ). When she goes out (walking) the devil casts a glance at her (in lust)" Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 692

Ja`ber-b-Abdullah reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "...Verily, you have married (wives) with trust in Allah. You have got the right over them that they entertain nobody to your bed which you dislike. If they do this, give them a beating..." [Al Hadis, Vol 1, p. 217 (76)]

This horse raddish is the quran & hadiths my friend...
and the misstreatment of women in the west is nowhere commanded and is forbidden. Unless you can quote me some government wich says in it's constitution that women and men are not equal? where in our laws is their a one that says you can misstreat women? i know Islam has a law of God wich allows that...

My brother, if you have spent years "pretending" to be a Christian, than you never were really a Christian

Then in that case I was never Christian, or Jewish and Aburaees was never muslim as well.

to quote late jacques derrida:
"To pretend, I actually do the thing: I have therefore only pretended to pretend."

i believe Peace2God'speople if he claims he was a christian, i only doubt his sincerty of that... most of the converts that i have seen (if not all) are completly lacking any firm theological knowledge. and are most of the time very confused if you bring the arguments up.

For a man who finds Islam attractive I find your reference to wars fought by Christians out to defend our freedoms as bit odd since Islam has instigated wars to force conversions since its inception.

Sounds like bush programming. Those people whom you claim is your enemy did not attack the US because your FREEDOM to act like an animal and do every unethical and immoral thing on earth that can be done. Their campaign is agaisnt the US government and those who side with it whom sponsor and help Israel.

If it were a muslim country wich invaded and ousted Saddam Hussein the muslim world would applauded that... the only thing that stings for them is the humilation of the infidel controlling 'God's people'. Maybe according to you H20 Iraq was better of with Saddam. But then i will disagree with you.
The people who keep this war alive are minority extremists who aren't even supported by the people and who kill their own people, the US would of been long gone if it wasn't for them.

Osama Bin Ladin whom condoned such attacks expressed these reason for the attacks on TV and not because how you live your lives. The reason you dotn know anything about this is cause your pathetic back twisting Media edited a 2 hour Video to make it seem what was not. I personaly saw the tape when it was first released on Al-Jazera before it aired on western TV whihc edited it down to 3 minutes.

i have read the letter of Osama decleration of war against the United States. And what he does is basicly muslim manipulation he thinks of himself of Saladin and tries to unite all muslims in his cause by making a black and white world in where the West is the ultimate enemy of all muslims... he does this by name dropping a series of muslim conflicts all over the world (czechiania, kosovo -at the time, kashmir, palestine, philiphines, etc...) and say they have a common enemy. He wants to unite all extremists against his enemy (Saudi Arabia/USA). And that's about it. Nothing logical about his actions he only wants to do a coup in Saudië Arabia but can't do this as long as the US is their Ally. So he needs to destroy it, all ways possible, even if involves mass manipulation and cowardly killing thousands of innocent people.

the stupid thing H20 is that you buy it... the disgusting thing is, that you support it or have sympathy for it.

Sorry, you are muddled again, it was not Constantine that gave us the Creed

The teachings of Christianity today as to the nature of G-d was mostly inforced by Constantine whom favored the creed of a particular group over another. Whereas before 325 there was no doctrine of trinity as is taught today. In fact as the belief started to develope other Christians rejected it.

Constantine had nothing to do with the creed, he wasn't even in the room when it was created, he invited the most prominent bishops of the roman empire to come together behind closed doors, work out the disputes and come together too form the common grounds of the christian doctrine (supportable by scripture) excluding the disputes and the heresies. Trinity was teached since the dawn of christianity... baptizing in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit as christ said. the SON of God was why christ was crucified, Luke reffered to the God with us prophecy... etc... it was teached all over the empire only not defined yet. The heresies (like Arius) that teached against it, were allready seen as heresies by the early church fathers long before the nicene creed was created.

....In the hadiths and the quran you see some very brutal conquering and persecuting ordered by Muhammed himself...

Would you like us to show you where in the Bible you see some very brutal conquering and persecutiin ordered by Moses etc per the instruction of G-d ? If you thing I dotn know the bible or I was never a Christian just test me.

Progressive revelation H20. God was a guidance to Israel in many wars in order to guarantee it's survival. The neccecity of the pagan war must have been unable to go past it, otherwise it wouldn't of happend. Since nowhere in Jewish history is such an act repeated in fact, you see the bible revealing more and more it's ultimate truth, based upon the foundatios Moses layed.

In the light of that, Muhammed war's are a world apart, for the gain of money, power, territory and for all time.

But that IS Islam. It is founded upon war ! Muhammed alone had more then fourty war campaigns, he raided caravans, persecuted everyone who ridiculed and contradicted him, etc...

Imagine that ! So how did you think Judaism became established during and after the time of Moses (pbuh) ?

You go back to the OT and skip the message of the NT... instead of talking about the complete message and word of God... you try and justify it with it's foundations, are you know gonna admit that Islam is a backwards religion? instead of forward? cause the NT went forward... while the quran wanted the reaping back and not just for some, but for all non-muslims and for all time.

That's positive discrimination when it concerns mothers, and is only normal since the woman instinctly knows how to care more for children then men (alltough this isn't always the case, but generally it is), secondly this doesn't always happen if the man is the caretaker of the family and the woman is for instance an alcoholic or on the brink of insanity the man will get the children... their are many exceptions, distinctions, etc... for it... i'm not a lawyer

Oh mankind ! reference your Lord who created you all from a single soul and created from it its companion and He produced from them both many men and women, so reference Allah whom you are dutybound with and your mothers...Quran 4:1

Knock Knock ! Again Loki just blowing with his mouth. Does any one see where fathers are mention in there ? Mothers have a status over fathers in Islam.

heh? i wasn't even talking about Islam in that passage...

All I am seeing is Christians starting to panic cause they are seeing one of their starting to make a turn, or consideration. It got soo frightening that you all starting accusing him of being an imposter. How silly and selfish.

he can do as he likes really, in my opinion it's voluntary stupidity.
He should do so more research then merely picking something that 'sounds' nice... a wolve in a sheeps cloth also 'looks' innocent.

not once have I heard someone say " It is your choice G-d Bless ". No, we heard not a squeel from any of you.

Why should we say "God Bless" after that? you really think God is gonna bless him while he chooses his heresy? if God is not gonna like what one of his sheep does... then why should we? Saint Augustine once said
"If God wants to talk to you, he does this trough other people" When someone joins this forum, they either have questions or something to say... so have others have their opinions as well.

I am going to make reference to Aburaees. When first met him I was in doubt about him ever being muslim as he claimed, this is online what do you expect, but then after listening to him I had no doubt what he use to be. Not once did I insult him about his choice or about what he chose. Liek I will tell him just like I have told many Christian associates of mine "G-d guides whom he pleases and leaves to stray whom he pleases". It is his choice, his execise of his free will but NOOOOOO obviously some Christians dont pratice what the preach.

Well, is that why for example, a muslim woman can't marry a christian man without being forced to convert him? Secondly if God guides us christians and we feel the need to debate the converts then we are doing God's will as well.

Why cant you love and respect him like a human being, isnt this more important than the choices he makes in his life that we are not going to be responsable for ?

who says we don't respect and love him as a human being? i do the same with you as well, and with the muslims i know in real life... merely because i don't agree with you or anyone for that matter doesn't mean i hate or dissrespect him.

Peace2God'sPeople, I have read this thread from the begining and I can relate to much what you have expressed. Do that which is right in your mind and soul, use your superior faculties as they should be used and let not feelings cloud your mind. The Shaytaan arrajeem preys on the feelings and emotions of G-d's creatured to lead them away from the truth. I hope that G-d guides you into the right path.

Islam has no God, some research would proof you that.

If you choose Christianity, Judaism, or Islam it is your choice and your will be held accountable for your own choices. wassalaam

what about Bahai? Mormonism? Sikhism? or a buddhist? confucionist? acctually i would have lesser problems with confucionism and buddhism... the Logos (The Word) is more alive in those religions then in Islam. But that wouldn't mean it would be truth either.

Islam has no place to be in once sentence together with Christianity and Judaism... heresies belong in the heresy lists

[H2O]

...indeed their is no reward for that... yet you believe a religion that gives a reward for killing and slaying in the name of God in order to reach heaven is truthfull... very anti-CHRISTian

"Let those fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumps, we will give him a handsome reward." [4:74]

and those who don't are condemned to hell

One thing a person like Peace2God'sPeople doesnt need you to do is mislead him and indeed you have by quoting out out of context of our book.

[4:74] Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter, To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah - whether he is slain or gets victory - soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

[4:75] And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!

We are not Christians whom allow their oppressors to bucher them. We are to defend our selves when beign oppressed adn wrogn unjustly. We as muslims are only to fight to defend our selves if we are attacked FIRST

2:190] Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

[2:191] And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

[2:192] But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[2:193] And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

This was the first and STANDARD rule on fighting. WE are to fight only in sefl defence of an attacker whom is to bring harm to us. All the verses in the Quran that deal with fighting fall under this verse.

"When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly." [17:16]

I would like to know why you quoted this verse from the Quran it has nothing to do with war. This verse is speaking about the civilizations that Allah destroyed in the past such as Egypt, Babylon, Sodom and Gomora etc for their sin after a messenger adn his grace was sent to them while warning them. These countries were wealty productive Allah gave them respite adn gave them enbough rope to hang themselves.

America is all these former countries in one and blasphemies in G-d's name saying in G-d we trust but allowing the sins to be practiced like that of former nations that were distroyed by his wrath.

And again show the context when you are going to quote our book it is not the Bible.

[17"13] Every man's fate We have fastened on his own neck: on the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.

[17:14] (It will be said to him:) "Read thine (own) record; sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee."

[17:15] Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent a Messenger (to give warning).

[17:16] When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then We destroy them utterly.

[17:17] How many generations have We destroyed after Nuh? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the sins of His servants.

[17:18] If any do wish for the transitory things (of this life), We readily grant them such things as We will, to such persons as We will: in the end have We provided Hell for them: they will burn therein, disgraced and rejected.

As you go on Loki you are making things worse for what is suppose to be Christianity.

Women are inferior, and should obey men, if they don't you can beat them [4.34]

According to what translation ? if you are talking about Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation :

[4:34] Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).

You must be talking about the phrase " ...has given the one more (strength) than the other..." to mean the man is given strenght over the woman. This is a typical western perception indeed.

In fact that phrase in Arabic is in ALL MASCULINE refering to that Allah has given more to some men than other men in which the context reflects wealth.

arrarijaalu (the men) qawwaamoona (are maintainers, caretakers, protectors) alaa (upon) annisaa ( the women) bimaa (because) fadhdhala (He favored) alllaahu (Allah) b'adha (some) hum (them[masculine]) alaa (over) b'adhin (some/others[masculine]).......4:34

Men are caretakers upon Women because Allah has favored some of them(men) above other (men)....etc

That is what the verse explicitly means in Arabic.

...Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct...Quran 4:34

Why shouldnt a woman be devoted and obedient to her husband ? What did you Bible say in Genesis ?

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he(G-d) said,



"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;

with pain you will give birth to children.

Your desire will be for your husband,

and he will rule over you."

Man is to rule over woman according to your book. If I am the maintainer/caretaker/protector of a woman she should be devout and obedient to her husband.

...As to those women on whose part ye fear [color=red]disloyalty and ill-conduct...Quran 4:34

[/color]

"Nushooz" which is applied to a rude, contentious, perverse, flirting, disrespecting woman whom also violates the ties of marriage. Men are to handle such wives in the fashion.

..admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). Quran 4:34

1) to admonish them first, if they do not stop

2) then stop sharing the bed with them, if they do not stop

3) hit them "idhribahunna" meaning a single hit and not yudhribahunna or mudhribahuun to express repetitive strikes or hits as you would imagine in your western thinking of a rocky boxing match.

and then after all that Allah says in the end "..seek not against them means (of annoyance).." in which she is not to be injured.

The only place a woman is to be hit under this rule is on her "buttom".

And the next verse stipulates if this method does not solve the problem the seek counciling if this doesnt work then DEVORCE !

Women have fewer rights concerning divorce [2:28]

WoOHOo ! What does your bible say about the rights of women ?

Hmm ! I want our lovely audience to notice that Loki never confirms what he reads he merely does teh Copy/Paste magic trick to make people think he is learnt in Islam while in fact he is not, his scooling of islam is obtained from Anti Islamic websites hosted by followers of Jesus.

[2:27] Those who break Allah's Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: these cause losses (only) to themselves

[2:28] How can ye reject the faith in Allah? Seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.

[2:29] It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; then He turned to the heaven and made them into seven firmaments. And of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

This is blunt proof that Christian like Loki never confirm what they read they just take it as because another Christian says so as it is agaisnt Islam.

[2:228] Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have [color=red]a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.[/color]

This is the verse I think Loki in error was trying to quote. but did he ever read it to see what it says ? No of course not cause he had no idea where it was or not or if the quotation he got was correct.

"degree " is translated from the arabic word "darajah" the following is tafseer on the verse by the Muslim Women's League :

The darajah for men over women occurs in the Qur’anic verse thus, “…And (Walahunna) women shall have right similar to the rights against them according to what is equitable. But men have a degree (of advantage) over them. Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.” (Q 2:228)

This verse occurs among a series of verses referring to the required period of separation before claiming a divorce. The degree of advantage refers to man’s being able to individually initiate divorce, whereas a woman can seek divorce only after intervention of an authority. So the advantage is limited to the circumstances of divorce only. Why this advantage? Most likely, because it is he who is duty- bound to support to the wife and unborn baby, and the previous verses are referring to the possibility that during separation the woman may be expecting, and if so, the man needs to give due consideration to taking her back because of his responsibility towards the unborn child. Hence, he has the responsibility/ decision about validating the divorce or taking his wife back. Yet, in Muslim cultures, an unrestricted value attaché to this concept of “advantage” and men generalize it to all aspects of life, claiming superiority over women.

This form of unrestricted value for all circumstances contradicts the equity established in the Qur’an, “that each ‘nafs’ (man or woman) is responsible for what it earns” (Q 4:32).

http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/essa ... everse.htm

I can just imagine the other stuff your sources tainted as well.

[Loki]

...indeed their is no reward for that... yet you believe a religion that gives a reward for killing and slaying in the name of God in order to reach heaven is truthfull... very anti-CHRISTian

"Let those fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumps, we will give him a handsome reward." [4:74]

and those who don't are condemned to hell

One thing a person like Peace2God'sPeople doesnt need you to do is mislead him and indeed you have by quoting out out of context of our book.

i'll leave the missleading to the quran and it's mullah's thank you, i'm only pointing to the truth... if i were quoting things out of contexts then Muhammed his actions wouldn't confirm these verses of war.


Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I am with you. Give firmness to the Believers. I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame. [9:14]
Whether unarmed or well equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah with your wealth and your persons.[9:41]


there are countless of Sahih hadith's verses wich confirm this sort of action even more:

Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N50 “The Prophet said, ‘A single endeavor of fighting in Allah’s Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it.’”
"This religion will never cease to exist. A party of the Muslims shall always fight for it until the Hour comes." [Muslim Vol 2, p. 347]
No capital punishment for killing non-muslims [Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 111]
"Bring them with chains on their necks 'till they embrace Islam" [Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 80]

[4:74] Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter, To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah - whether he is slain or gets victory - soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

[4:75] And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!

We are not Christians whom allow their oppressors to bucher them. We are to defend our selves when beign oppressed adn wrogn unjustly. We as muslims are only to fight to defend our selves if we are attacked FIRST

merely because you 'feel' you are being opressed... who confirms opression? does the quran defines what opression is? no, it doesn't... so any muslim who thinks that society is against him is justly granted the right to slay entire families in order that he gets his peace of mind and with it as a reward his virgins in paradise.

and when did Mecca attack muhammed? when did Byzantium attack the arabian pensulina? when did Persia do that? when did India do that? yet these countries were overrun and butchered for no reason then not submitting to the caliph's will. And still these are seen as muslims and very respectfull one's non the less.

[2:190] Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

what defines the transgression? the limits of muhammed even include the rape of pagan female captives, the killing of children (pagan kids)...

[2:191] And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

this verse fully speaks of fighting with only exception that you can't fight near his expensive mosque's it's only at that place that you can't fight untill they fight first... considering the rest of the non-mosque area world you can fight and kill all you want without exceptions.

[2:192] But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

yeah, don't kill the army that gives in to his loss... did he really need to reafirm this? isn't this something you obviously do?

[2:193] And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

again what defines opression? in any country some minority thinks that society is against them... so de facto any muslim who 'feels' he is been threated wrong can rightfully assasinate the president or prime minister of a country because he is a 'opressor' in his opinion. In fact you just justified every islam extremist as a genuine muslim.

This was the first and STANDARD rule on fighting. WE are to fight only in sefl defence of an attacker whom is to bring harm to us. All the verses in the Quran that deal with fighting fall under this verse.

again what quarrel had the Franks with the caliphs when they tried to conquer Europe? What was the quarrel the Sultans of the Ottoman empire with Europe when they joined the germans to fight against the allies? When did the people in the World Trade Center ever attacked mister multi millionair Osama Bin Laden?

"When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly." [17:16]

I would like to know why you quoted this verse from the Quran it has nothing to do with war. This verse is speaking about the civilizations that Allah destroyed in the past such as Egypt, Babylon, Sodom and Gomora etc for their sin after a messenger adn his grace was sent to them while warning them. These countries were wealty productive Allah gave them respite adn gave them enbough rope to hang themselves.

"WE" Muhammed is trying to justify his destruction of populations with historical biblical events. He's using it in his perverted context of his perverted wars disregarding everything the bible says about peacemakers and picking from it what he likes the most... wich is war

America is all these former countries in one and blasphemies in G-d's name saying in G-d we trust but allowing the sins to be practiced like that of former nations that were distroyed by his wrath.

And again show the context when you are going to quote our book it is not the Bible.

His wrath was set up against the countries that attacked or threatend Israel... all nations you summed up have been totally anihalted from history due to attacks against israel... the last civilasation that did this were 6 muslim nations supported by the entire muslim world. If one thing will fall, it won't be the US but Islam.

And the US is the caretaker and protecter of Israel. If America is sinfull in your opinion then so are the secularizing Islam countries like Turkey, Indonesia and the United Arabian Emirates. By the way you can't judge entire groups of people based upon the sins represented by others their are muslims living in the US as well you know. I thought in Islam you were judged indivually? yet you condemn entire nations merely for living between a certain set of borders.

[17"13] Every man's fate We have fastened on his own neck: on the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.

[17:14] (It will be said to him:) "Read thine (own) record; sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee."

[17:15] Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent a Messenger (to give warning).

[17:16] When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then We destroy them utterly.

[17:17] How many generations have We destroyed after Nuh? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the sins of His servants.

[17:18] If any do wish for the transitory things (of this life), We readily grant them such things as We will, to such persons as We will: in the end have We provided Hell for them: they will burn therein, disgraced and rejected.

internal Quranic contradiction in wich muhammed first claimed everyone is judged individually and now entire groups are condemned merely for being born in the wrong country or from the 'wrong' ethnic group

As you go on Loki you are making things worse for what is suppose to be Christianity.

what do you know about christianity H20, half of the time you are unable to comprehend simple theologies wich the majority of the population on earth seems to comprehend at ease.

Women are inferior, and should obey men, if they don't you can beat them [4.34]

According to what translation ? if you are talking about Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation :

In fact that phrase in Arabic is in ALL MASCULINE refering to that Allah has given more to some men than other men in which the context reflects wealth.

the inferiority is not my issue here, it is the beating that is granted with it, that is the real issue.

Men are caretakers upon Women because Allah has favored some of them(men) above other (men)....etc

That is what the verse explicitly means in Arabic.

...Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct...Quran 4:34

Why shouldnt a woman be devoted and obedient to her husband ? What did you Bible say in Genesis ?

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he(G-d) said,



"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;

with pain you will give birth to children.

Your desire will be for your husband,

and he will rule over you."

Man is to rule over woman according to your book. If I am the maintainer/caretaker/protector of a woman she should be devout and obedient to her husband.

again this is not my issue, your beating around the bush... my issue is the beating of women because a man is superior he is allowed to hit the weaker undefensible gender according to Islam.

...As to those women on whose part ye fear [color=red]disloyalty and ill-conduct...Quran 4:34

[/color]

"Nushooz" which is applied to a rude, contentious, perverse, flirting, disrespecting woman whom also violates the ties of marriage. Men are to handle such wives in the fashion.

..admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). Quran 4:34

1) to admonish them first, if they do not stop

2) then stop sharing the bed with them, if they do not stop

3) hit them "idhribahunna" meaning a single hit and not yudhribahunna or mudhribahuun to express repetitive strikes or hits as you would imagine in your western thinking of a rocky boxing match.

and then after all that Allah says in the end "..seek not against them means (of annoyance).." in which she is not to be injured.

The only place a woman is to be hit under this rule is on her "buttom".

And the next verse stipulates if this method does not solve the problem the seek counciling if this doesnt work then DEVORCE !

Women have fewer rights concerning divorce [2:28]

oh please H20, you really think that this only implies a gentle slap on the bottom? do you really believe that your Allah implies such a ridiculous thing would solve a social problems in the family? isn't it more reasonable to assume as many muslims who abuse their wifes that beating is a form of though love.

and the worrying this about this verse is that if you 'FEEL' that she is gonna leave you, you may eventually beat her... let's hope those muslim women never get a paranoid or jealous husband then.

WoOHOo ! What does your bible say about the rights of women ?

Hmm ! I want our lovely audience to notice that Loki never confirms what he reads he merely does teh Copy/Paste magic trick to make people think he is learnt in Islam while in fact he is not, his scooling of islam is obtained from Anti Islamic websites hosted by followers of Jesus.

I always quote your quran and hadiths my friend, if smuttering my integrety is the best defence you got, then it's very pathetic.

[2:228] Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have [color=red]a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.[/color]

This is the verse I think Loki in error was trying to quote. but did he ever read it to see what it says ? No of course not cause he had no idea where it was or not or if the quotation he got was correct.

you read it too, you acctually pointed it out as well:
do men not have an advantage (a degree) more then women? when it concerns divorce or not? yeah similar rights for a woman, but that doesn't imply equal rights. you can yap yap all you want around it, this does not change this verse.

[H2O]

i'll leave the missleading to the quran and it's mullah's thank you, i'm only pointing to the truth... if i were quoting things out of contexts then Muhammed his actions wouldn't confirm these verses of war.

In that case why try to use verses from the Quran in criticism to persuade Peace from considering Islam if Christianity is suppose to be the absolute truth ?

You didnt allow him this as you speak you tried to dictate to him Islam rather than to let him study himself to make his own discission.

Face the fact Loki your scared to a wit of Islam, your scared of Peace becoming a muslim. Thats why you are striving your hardest to prevent him from even studying Islam for himself.

If our religion is as how you represented it in your wantoness dont you think Peace would see all which you talk about if it was true ? Shows how weak your faith is.

I am not here to call Peace to Islam, he already recieved his calling, now it is up to him to answer to that call. Him becoming muslim or not does not gain any of us a thing, we have already been rewarded, rather it is a win or lose with himself. I am here to clearify Islam from your prejudice misrepresentings not to have a tug-a-war over a blessed soul.

Your agression judges you and your faith.

Salam !

[Loki]

i'll leave the missleading to the quran and it's mullah's thank you, i'm only pointing to the truth... if i were quoting things out of contexts then Muhammed his actions wouldn't confirm these verses of war.

In that case why try to use verses from the Quran in criticism to persuade Peace from considering Islam if Christianity is suppose to be the absolute truth ?

i merely give him the other side of Islam without your 21th century mullah's trying to cover that part up. I think everyone is entitled to the truth, i merely give it. If he stills likes the war doctrine of muhammed, then let him have it, then they diserve each other...

You didnt allow him this as you speak you tried to dictate to him Islam rather than to let him study himself to make his own discission.

nice thing of you to admit that what i post is Islam... and since i only give examples of islam i still leave the choice with him or any person for that matter regardless of how passionate i defend christianity it's still his choice.

Face the fact Loki your scared to a wit of Islam, your scared of Peace becoming a muslim. Thats why you are striving your hardest to prevent him from even studying Islam for himself.

nope, i think i would as passionaltly defend against those that deny that the holocaust happend... the fact that worry's me is that most christians convert to islam without having known christianity or know true Islam (not how your mullah's try to teach you that Muhammed was a Gandhi) in advanced... most of the time those converts get too know these pedofelia, persecutions, wars and hadith abominations when they are too deep in it... when their pride of islam has gone above their reason or when they fear repercussions if they left.

If our religion is as how you represented it in your wantoness dont you think Peace would see all which you talk about if it was true ? Shows how weak your faith is.

Peace is in love with arab culture, not with Islam. But he thinks both are one and the same... and he does not see how bad these countries really are he only sees the sugar topped image that muslims try and give you (then again he's all in favour of whipping adultresses).

I am not here to call Peace to Islam, he already recieved his calling, now it is up to him to answer to that call. Him becoming muslim or not does not gain any of us a thing, we have already been rewarded, rather it is a win or lose with himself. I am here to clearify Islam from your prejudice misrepresentings not to have a tug-a-war over a blessed soul.

so the mormon God called the christian converts? and the bahai God called the muslim converts? and so on and so on... you really believe that changing a faith happens because God calls? think again.

Peace is on the verge of giving up his atonement... and will join (God forbid) a religion that blasphemes, dissrespects and rejects Christ's atonement. I am here to clarify Islam from your naieve believes and to protect Jesus' Word.

"Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:23

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:18

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Your agression judges you and your faith.

call it passion and i'm not trying yo judge you or Peace in anyway, so let's leave it at that.