Distinct Persons

[BradtheImpaler]

In a polytheistic theology, where the gods are considered to be "personal", wouldn't they accurately be described as "distinct persons"?

[Aineo]

pol·y·the·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-th-zm, pl-thz-m)
n.
The worship of or belief in more than one god.

polytheism

n : belief in multiple Gods [ant: monotheism]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=polytheism

Polytheism - General Overview
Polytheism is the belief in and worship of many gods. Typically, these gods are distinguished by particular functions, and often take on human characteristics. This was particularly true in ancient Greece and Rome. In other polytheistic cultures such as ancient Egypt, gods take on the form and characteristics of objects found in nature, including trees, sacred herbs, cattle, animals and animal--human hybrids.

The belief in multiple gods is probably the result of an earlier belief in vaguely defined spirits, demons and other supernatural forces. These belief systems are similar to animism, ancestor worship and totemism. However, in polytheism, these supernatural forces are personified and organized into a cosmic family. This "family" becomes the nucleus of a particular culture's belief system. The family of gods was used to explain natural phenomena and to establish a culture's role in the universe. Typically, the number of gods would expand as the culture's belief system developed, eventually resulting in a hierarchical system of deities. Over time, the lesser gods would diminish in stature or vanish altogether.

http://www.polytheism.net/

The Trinity is not 3 gods; the Trinity is one God revealed in three persons.

[BradtheImpaler]

[/quote]The Trinity is not 3 gods; the Trinity is one God revealed in three persons.[/quote]

And a polytheistic theology would suggest multiple gods revealed in multiple persons. You see you are simply classifying the same thing, conceptually, under the heading of "one God", that qualifies, theologically and logically, as MANY gods everywhere else. Put aside for the moment the words "gods" and "God"...the pagan cultures believed in MULTIPLE PERSONS who were deity, and SO DO YOU. The only difference is they (logically) admit they believe in "gods" (plural) whereas the Trinitarian claims his multiple persons constitute only one God.

What if I claimed Zeus and Apollo were "one God"? Would that make sense just because I used the term "God" instead of "gods"? It's what it IS, not what you CALL IT that constitutes truth.

[Aineo]

Bradtheimpaler, all you are demonstrating is your total lack of understanding Biblical truth. You are also showing your ignorance of Greek and Roman mythology. Zeus was not the first "god" and neither was Apollo. Apollo and his twin sister Artemis were the product of Zeus' union with Leto (a daughter of the Titans). Zeus was a lusty fellow and fathered many children by many women not all of whom were gods.

[BradtheImpaler]

Bradtheimpaler, all you are demonstrating is your total lack of understanding Biblical truth. You are also showing your ignorance of Greek and Roman mythology. Zeus was not the first "god" and neither was Apollo. Apollo and his twin sister Artemis were the product of Zeus' union with Leto (a daughter of the Titans). Zeus was a lusty fellow and fathered many children by many women not all of whom were gods.

What does any of this have to do with the point I raised? You have a penchant for avoiding the question (and you accuse ME of "semantics"!)

Let's get as "general" as possible -

You meet someone who entertains a religion you are not familiar with. He claims to believe in "3 gods". These gods are eternal, have a sense of morality, make judgements, and are, of course, NOT each other (which, logic and sensibility demand, is what MAKES them "3 gods" in the first place, right?)

Now the question -

Are his 3 gods "distinct persons"...yes or no?

[Aineo]

What ifs are generally wrong. As to appealing to semantics what do you call you non-Trinitarians tactics on the Trinity thread? Also correcting you conception of polytheism is not semantics.

In order to fully understand the Trinity you have to get down to specifics. If you want a pagan belief that is closer to the Trinity in concept you need to refer to Isis, Osiris, and Horus; however even this one fall shorts since Isis was female.

Using the tactics and arguments of agnosticism and atheism is not going to make your case.

[BradtheImpaler]

What ifs are generally wrong. As to appealing to semantics what do you call you non-Trinitarians tactics on the Trinity thread?

I call it proving you incorrectly defined certain words to bolster your case for the Trinity - which you afterwards refused to admit.

Also correcting you conception of polytheism is not semantics.

Correcting my conception of polytheism by bringing up Zeus's sex life? I'm asking you if the multiple gods of polytheism (in general, theologically) constitute "distinct persons" or not? Once again, no answer seems to be forthcoming. That's okay - because by not giving a clear answer I'm sure that everyone reading this realizes you CANNOT answer without incriminating your theology.

In order to fully understand the Trinity you have to get down to specifics. If you want a pagan belief that is closer to the Trinity in concept you need to refer to Isis, Osiris, and Horus; however even this one fall shorts since Isis was female

So the pagan Egyptian construct of Isis/Osiris/Horus was CLOSER, in principle, to the real (triune) essence of YHWH than the understanding that the Israelite's had? And the difference between the Egyptian trinity and the Christian trinity is that one INCLUDES A FEMALE?

Using the tactics and arguments of agnosticism and atheism is not going to make your case.

What "tactics"? I'm asking a simple question which you are desperately trying to avoid answering - like you did when I asked you how many times God's name is mentioned in Deut.6:4 (after you said it was THREE, in attempting to draw an imaginary reference to a "trinity")

[Aburaees]

What ifs are generally wrong. As to appealing to semantics what do you call you non-Trinitarians tactics on the Trinity thread? Also correcting you conception of polytheism is not semantics.

In order to fully understand the Trinity you have to get down to specifics. If you want a pagan belief that is closer to the Trinity in concept you need to refer to Isis, Osiris, and Horus; however even this one fall shorts since Isis was female.

Using the tactics and arguments of agnosticism and atheism is not going to make your case.

I offer this in support of Aineo (If Aineo agrees with it). Otherwise, I offer it for myself.

How about the Hindu concept of the "Brahman", which consists of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva? Three persons, but one "Brahman".

The difference here is that the "Brahman" is one with the universe, but "The God", which consists of Father, Son and Holy-Spirit are a seperate entity to the universe.

I don't see how a person can object to the Trinity on the grounds that they deem it ilogical, as with God all things are possible.

A human with multiple-personality disorder is credited with having more than one distinct personality and at the same time being "one human".
It is called a disorder because it isn't the natural state for a human to be in.

If a human can have more than one personality, then so can God.

The only difference is, multiple-personalities may be the natural state for God.

[Aineo]

Aburaees, that was well put. Those who argue polytheism vs. the Trinity usually don't understand the basis of polytheism.

[BradtheImpaler]

How about the Hindu concept of the "Brahman", which consists of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva? Three persons, but one "Brahman".

"One must clearly understand that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are not 3 independent deities. They represent the same power (the Supreme Being) but in 3 different aspects. Just as a man may be called a doctor, father, or husband based on the tasks he performs, the Supreme Being is called Brahma, Vishnu, or Shiva when conceived of as performing 3 different cosmic tasks..." (www.koausa.org/Gods/)

This description, by comparison, would be MODALISM, not Trinitarianism. 3 ASPECTS of one God, or one person, not 3 persons but somehow one God. If this (Hindu Trinity) is what you believe is analogous to the Christian Trinity, you are not a Trinitarian at all.

The difference here is that the "Brahman" is one with the universe, but "The God", which consists of Father, Son and Holy-Spirit are a seperate entity to the universe.

No, the difference (that has to do with our issue here) is that the 3 "members" of the Hindu Trinity are aspects of one entity, as described in the quote.

I don't see how a person can object to the Trinity on the grounds that they deem it ilogical, as with God all things are possible.

It's not just illogical, my point is there would be NO DIFFERENCE between "one God" and "more than one God" if a "one God" can be comprised of distinct persons - since it doesn't take more than one (divine) person to constitute one individual GOD.

A human with multiple-personality disorder is credited with having more than one distinct personality and at the same time being "one human".
It is called a disorder because it isn't the natural state for a human to be in.

If a human can have more than one personality, then so can God

Again, your analogy is off - one human being is ONE person. You're talking about one person with multiple personalities which, again, is comparible to modalism. Trinitarianism states that God is comprised of 3 INDIVIDUAL PERSONS, and that "one is not the other". A polytheistic religion's sum total of "deity" is also comprised of individual (divine) persons, each of whom is not the other. There is no difference in concept - only the Trinitarian uses the word God instead of Gods.

The only difference is, multiple-personalities may be the natural state for God.

If you are a Trinitarian, you're supposed to believe in multiple PERSONS, not multiple PERSONALITIES. Do you begin to understand how Trinitarianism REQUIRES that these terms remain vague and undefined? [/i]

[Aineo]

Reality, is conceived by Hindus as having various aspects. A Hindu deity (god or goddess; note small g) represents a particular aspect of the Supreme Being. For example, Saraswati represents the learning and knowledge aspect of the Supreme Being. Thus, if a Hindu wants to pray for acquiring knowledge and understanding, he prays to Saraswati. Just as sunlight cannot have a separate and independent existence from the sun itself, a Hindu deity does not have a separate and independent existence from the Supreme Being. Thus, Hindu worship of deities is monotheistic polytheism and not simple polytheism.
Hindus declare that there is only one Supreme Being and He is the God of all religions. There is no "other God." Thus the Biblical Commandment "Thou shalt have no other God before me," really means, "Thou shalt not deny the Ultimate Reality or worship any power other than the Ultimate Reality."

Hindus view cosmic activity of the Supreme Being as comprised of three tasks: creation, preservation, and dissolution and recreation. Hindus associate these three cosmic tasks with the three deities, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Lord Brahma brings forth the creation and represents the creative principle of the Supreme Being. Lord Vishnu maintains the universe and represents the eternal principle of preservation. Lord Shiva represents the principle of dissolution and recreation. These three deities together form the Hindu Trinity.
http://www.koausa.org/Gods/

However, Trinitarians do not teach 3 dieties but one diety with one nature in three "persons". The one God is the creator, the preserver, and the judge of all mankind.

[Huldah]

A human with multiple-personality disorder is credited with having more than one distinct personality and at the same time being "one human".
It is called a disorder because it isn't the natural state for a human to be in.

If a human can have more than one personality, then so can God.

The only difference is, multiple-personalities may be the natural state for God.

That is a sick idea.

Multiple personality disorders are a disorder - a deviation from how God originally made man, and man was originally made in God's image.

If your theory was right, then it would be natural and the norm, rather than a deviation, for men to have multiple personality disorder.

[Aineo]

Huldah what Aburaees posted may seem sick to you however it is a valid comparison since the comparison was qualified by Aburaees to remove any idea that God is a psycho.

[Aburaees]

A human with multiple-personality disorder is credited with having more than one distinct personality and at the same time being "one human".
It is called a disorder because it isn't the natural state for a human to be in.

If a human can have more than one personality, then so can God.

The only difference is, multiple-personalities may be the natural state for God.

That is a sick idea.

Multiple personality disorders are a disorder - a deviation from how God originally made man, and man was originally made in God's image.

If your theory was right, then it would be natural and the norm, rather than a deviation, for men to have multiple personality disorder.

But we can't use the "made in God's image" to explain all human qualities.

If we could, it would be natural to assume that God comes in male and female varieties.

And that is another debate altogether.

[Aburaees]

How about the Hindu concept of the "Brahman", which consists of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva? Three persons, but one "Brahman".

"One must clearly understand that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are not 3 independent deities. They represent the same power (the Supreme Being) but in 3 different aspects. Just as a man may be called a doctor, father, or husband based on the tasks he performs, the Supreme Being is called Brahma, Vishnu, or Shiva when conceived of as performing 3 different cosmic tasks..." (www.koausa.org/Gods/)

This description, by comparison, would be MODALISM, not Trinitarianism. 3 ASPECTS of one God, or one person, not 3 persons but somehow one God. If this (Hindu Trinity) is what you believe is analogous to the Christian Trinity, you are not a Trinitarian at all.

The difference here is that the "Brahman" is one with the universe, but "The God", which consists of Father, Son and Holy-Spirit are a seperate entity to the universe.

No, the difference (that has to do with our issue here) is that the 3 "members" of the Hindu Trinity are aspects of one entity, as described in the quote.

I don't see how a person can object to the Trinity on the grounds that they deem it ilogical, as with God all things are possible.

It's not just illogical, my point is there would be NO DIFFERENCE between "one God" and "more than one God" if a "one God" can be comprised of distinct persons - since it doesn't take more than one (divine) person to constitute one individual GOD.

A human with multiple-personality disorder is credited with having more than one distinct personality and at the same time being "one human".
It is called a disorder because it isn't the natural state for a human to be in.

If a human can have more than one personality, then so can God

Again, your analogy is off - one human being is ONE person. You're talking about one person with multiple personalities which, again, is comparible to modalism. Trinitarianism states that God is comprised of 3 INDIVIDUAL PERSONS, and that "one is not the other". A polytheistic religion's sum total of "deity" is also comprised of individual (divine) persons, each of whom is not the other. There is no difference in concept - only the Trinitarian uses the word God instead of Gods.

The only difference is, multiple-personalities may be the natural state for God.

If you are a Trinitarian, you're supposed to believe in multiple PERSONS, not multiple PERSONALITIES. Do you begin to understand how Trinitarianism REQUIRES that these terms remain vague and undefined? [/i]

Brad,

Thank you for pointing out my error in saying that the Hindu trinity is One God but three persons.

I genuinely thought that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva were different persons (Trinity Godhead), and not the same person in different modes (Modalism).

However, we are talking about the way people use words. One persons definition of God is different to anothers, and one persons definition of a person is different to anothers.

Humans can't claim one meaning over the other as a means of refuting a doctrine whether it be Trinitarianism, Modalism or Unitarianism.

To refute any of these doctrines we must refer to "God's Word".

The trinity debate must rely on the internal evidence of "God's Word" otherwise we lose the debate to philosophy which is the word of men.

Whilst I appreciate that Modalism is easier to understand than Trinitarianism, another member of this forum quite rightly pointed out that Jesus qualified his own witness and his father's witness to be the witness of two persons.

To say that Jesus and The Father are the same person (which is what I understand Modalism to be), is to deny Jesus' word that his witness and his father's witness was the witness of TWO.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

1x1x1=1

[BradtheImpaler]

However, Trinitarians do not teach 3 dieties but one diety with one nature in three "persons". The one God is the creator, the preserver, and the judge of all mankind.

But distinct persons is no different in concept than distinct Gods - that's the essence of my original statement. Whether said God or person truly exists or is only mythology - a "divine person", that is, a self-aware, intelligent, morally cognizant person who possesses all the attributes of deity, WOULD BE a god/God in and of himself. Whether it is imagined this person is joined somehow to certain other persons to comprise some larger or "corporate" deity is besides the point. He/she's ALREADY a god. The difference between a "divine person" and a "god/God" is like the difference between an "automobile" and a "car". There IS no real difference in the explanation of the nature of the entities involved, only the terms are different.

That is the essence of my post - your refusal to label EACH divine person of the Trinity a God, is no different than if you refused to use the term "car" (to describe what was obviously a car) and insisted instead on saying "automobile" as if they were not the same thing.

[Aburaees]

However, Trinitarians do not teach 3 dieties but one diety with one nature in three "persons". The one God is the creator, the preserver, and the judge of all mankind.

But distinct persons is no different in concept than distinct Gods - that's the essence of my original statement. Whether said God or person truly exists or is only mythology - a "divine person", that is, a self-aware, intelligent, morally cognizant person who possesses all the attributes of deity, WOULD BE a god/God in and of himself. Whether it is imagined this person is joined somehow to certain other persons to comprise some larger or "corporate" deity is besides the point. He/she's ALREADY a god. The difference between a "divine person" and a "god/God" is like the difference between an "automobile" and a "car". There IS no real difference in the explanation of the nature of the entities involved, only the terms are different.

That is the essence of my post - your refusal to label EACH divine person of the Trinity a God, is no different than if you refused to use the term "car" (to describe what was obviously a car) and insisted instead on saying "automobile" as if they were not the same thing.

I think I appreciate what you are getting at.

It is rather confusing especially as no trinitarian that I know of believes that each person of the trinity is one-third of God. Rather, it is believed that each person is fully God and yet they are together One God.

However, no trinitarian claims to know "how" it is possible, they just believe that it is the truth that is evident in the scripture.

The nicene creed below doesn't exactly remove the confusion...


We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."


In any case, the trinity debate should focus on the scriptural proofs or refutations, or else we get caught up in the ideas of men.

[Aineo]

If you are going to appeal to mythology then non-Christians can appeal to the trinity of Isis, Osiris, and Horus. Isis died and was resurrected by the goddess Isis and together they had a son Horus. There is more than one pagan myth about a god who died and was resurrected.

[(Omega)]

Hello BradtheImpaler!

However, Trinitarians do not teach 3 dieties but one diety with one nature in three "persons". The one God is the creator, the preserver, and the judge of all mankind.

But distinct persons is no different in concept than distinct Gods - that's the essence of my original statement. Whether said God or person truly exists or is only mythology - a "divine person", that is, a self-aware, intelligent, morally cognizant person who possesses all the attributes of deity, WOULD BE a god/God in and of himself. Whether it is imagined this person is joined somehow to certain other persons to comprise some larger or "corporate" deity is besides the point. He/she's ALREADY a god. The difference between a "divine person" and a "god/God" is like the difference between an "automobile" and a "car". There IS no real difference in the explanation of the nature of the entities involved, only the terms are different.

That is the essence of my post - your refusal to label EACH divine person of the Trinity a God, is no different than if you refused to use the term "car" (to describe what was obviously a car) and insisted instead on saying "automobile" as if they were not the same thing.

THE LORD GOD says that He is "ONE" God.
Monotheistic "MAN" say that there is "ONE" God.

According to (Natural)"MAN" God is ONE in Number.
According to Jesus, God is ONE in UNITY. I and{kai}my Father are one.(John 10:30) kai:and or also
Now in the above passage according to Jesus Himself, is He "and" His Father "ONE" in NUMBER or in UNITY?

On another note, did the Old Testament saints realize that God was One in Unity or acknowledge the Deity of Christ via the Holy Spirit?
"He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? (If David then call him Lord), how is he his son?" Matthew 22:43-45 In this passage in Scripture, Jesus is hinting to the spiritually blind that He existed before David as His LORD!

THE LORD GOD is indeed ONE GOD!
Once again let us see how the spiritual Jesus Himself interpreted the meaning of "ONE":
John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be (one), even as we are (one):

How many persons make up they?
And how many persons make up we?
According to JESUS, how many equals ONE?

The Natural mans Interpretation of the Number One is flawed, Scripture proves this:Revelation 21:17 - And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the (measure of a man), that is, of the angel.

Do you understand where I am coming from?

Matthew 11:27 - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever (the Son will reveal him.)

God Bless!

[BradtheImpaler]

THE LORD GOD says that He is "ONE" God.
Monotheistic "MAN" say that there is "ONE" God.

According to (Natural)"MAN" God is ONE in Number.
According to Jesus, God is ONE in UNITY. I and{kai}my Father are one.(John 10:30) kai:and or also
Now in the above passage according to Jesus Himself, is He "and" His Father "ONE" in NUMBER or in UNITY?

So you don't believe there is only one God NUMERICALLY? How many Gods do you believe in then?

On another note, did the Old Testament saints realize that God was One in Unity or acknowledge the Deity of Christ via the Holy Spirit?
"He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? (If David then call him Lord), how is he his son?" Matthew 22:43-45 In this passage in Scripture, Jesus is hinting to the spiritually blind that He existed before David as His LORD!

So what makes more sense to you - one God sitting at another God's right hand (in unity of course) or one God sitting at his own right hand?

THE LORD GOD is indeed ONE GOD!

If he's not one in number (as you deny he is) then how is he "indeed" one?

Once again let us see how the spiritual Jesus Himself interpreted the meaning of "ONE":
John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be (one), even as we are (one):

So Jesus's followers are one in the same way that Jesus and the Father are one - so the members of the Trinity are only one in the same way that many human persons can be one...you're right, you certainly DON'T believe there is one God in number.. So, once again, HOW MANY (numerical) Gods do you believe in ?

How many persons make up they?

Many...

And how many persons make up we? [/quote]

Many...

According to JESUS, how many equals ONE?

One WHAT? One bunch of people or one person?

The Natural mans Interpretation of the Number One is flawed, Scripture proves this:Revelation 21:17 - And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the (measure of a man), that is, of the angel.

Do you understand where I am coming from?

From your elected class "Trinitarian Brainwashing 101"? Now tell us what is the word that DOES mean the "NUMBER one" in the NT?

[(Omega)]

Hello Brad!

What saddens me is that you fail to realize how Jesus clearly made an analogy and differentiated between mans comprehension of ONE and GODS! Your mentality obviously exhibits that you do not understand the meaning of spiritual "Oneness"

Matthew 12:30 - He that is (not with me) is against me; and he that (gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.)

Jesus' spiritual analogy of Unity and Oneness to you is obviously "Foolishness" As far as I known you can call it brainwashing even though the Scriptures clearly reveals God as in Unity, Nevertheless when all is said and done we shall see who Truly lacks understanding. Disobedience makes way to ones spiritual deafness, because He/She cannot obey the direct commands of God nor are attentive to His will, neither can they discern or hear and understand the voice of the Chief Shepherd.

John 14:20 - At that day ye shall know that (I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.)

God Bless!

[BradtheImpaler]

Hello Brad!

What saddens me is that you fail to realize how Jesus clearly made an analogy and differentiated between mans comprehension of ONE and GODS! Your mentality obviously exhibits that you do not understand the meaning of spiritual "Oneness"

Matthew 12:30 - He that is (not with me) is against me; and he that (gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.)

Jesus' spiritual analogy of Unity and Oneness to you is obviously "Foolishness" As far as I known you can call it brainwashing even though the Scriptures clearly reveals God as in Unity, Nevertheless when all is said and done we shall see who Truly lacks understanding. Disobedience makes way to ones spiritual deafness, because He/She cannot obey the direct commands of God nor are attentive to His will, neither can they discern or hear and understand the voice of the Chief Shepherd.

John 14:20 - At that day ye shall know that (I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.)

God Bless!

Omega -I stand humbly before you and eagerly await my initiation into the "hidden mysteries" (Rev.17:5) of your faith. I realize must repent of my "natural man" mentality which has falsely led me to believe that there is only one God, in "NUMBER". Perhaps, along the way of my pilgrimage, you can help me understand why, in the following verses -

"For there is one God..." (Mk.12:32)

"Seeing it is one God..." (Ro.3:30)

"But to us there is but one God..." (1Cor.8:6)

"One God and Father of all...(Eph.4:6)

"For there is one God...(1Ti.2:5)

"Thou believest there is one God, thou doest well..." (Ja.2:19)

..."one" (as in "one God") is heis, which is defined in Strong's as a "NUMERAL", not a "unity"?

And finally, at the risk of repeating myself, could you tell us all, since you do NOT believe that God is "one in number" -


How...MANY...Gods...do...you...believe...in?????

[(Omega)]

Hello Brad!

Your humble response is well appreciated my friend. Indeed I TRULY BELIEVE THAT GOD IS ONE. Let me elaborate my friend.
Take a look at this verse in Scripture, keep in mind that Jesus Himself is speaking! Not strongs Concordance nor man but JESUS!

John 10:30 - I and my Father are (one).

As you explicitly stated that the Word for one is {heis} which is a Numerical One, now since you stand firm in that belief, would you say in the above verse that Jesus is ONE with His Father in UNITY or NUMBER?

If it is in NUMBER, then Jesus the Son and the Father are the same person, correct? And if in UNITY, then Jesus and the Father are Distinct persons correct? Which (one) would you say that it is???

Once again according to JESUS, not STRONGS CONCORDANCE and NOT MANS interpretation but given by (JESUS HIMSELF), what do you suppose Jesus Himself meant in the below verse:

John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one{heis}, even as we are one{heis}:

The same word {heis} is used to describe WE being "ONE" even as He and His FATHER are "ONE". Now according to your understanding, the word "ONE"{HEIS} which according to strongs concordance and mans interpretation is NUMERICAL, in the same above verse, is JESUS HIMSELF referring to "ONE" in UNITY or in NUMBER?

Think about it my friend, thats all!
BTW, Sorry about the Bold and Size, its just emphasis.

God Bless!

[(Omega)]

Just a reminder, take heed that "NO MAN" Deceives you.

God Bless!

[BradtheImpaler]

Hello Brad!

Your humble response is well appreciated my friend. Indeed I TRULY BELIEVE THAT GOD IS ONE. Let me elaborate my friend.
Take a look at this verse in Scripture, keep in mind that Jesus Himself is speaking! Not strongs Concordance nor man but JESUS!

John 10:30 - I and my Father are (one).

As you explicitly stated that the Word for one is {heis} which is a Numerical One, now since you stand firm in that belief, would you say in the above verse that Jesus is ONE with His Father in UNITY or NUMBER?

First define "one" the way you just used it in your question. If you do not realize that both you and I share a common understanding that "one" is a NUMERAL, (as is "heis" in the Greek defined as a numeral) then how do you expect me to comprehend what you just asked?

Or did you mean -

"Would you say in the above verse that Jesus is UNITY with his Father in unity or number?"

[(Omega)]

Hello Brad!

As you explicitly stated that the Word for one is {heis} which is a Numerical One, now since you stand firm in that belief, would you say in the above verse that Jesus is ONE with His Father in UNITY or NUMBER?

John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that (they) may be one{heis}, even as (we) are one{heis}:

The same word {heis} is used to describe WE being "ONE" even as He and His FATHER are "ONE". Now according to your understanding, the word "ONE"{HEIS} which according to strongs concordance and mans interpretation is NUMERICAL, in the same above verse, is JESUS HIMSELF referring to "ONE" in UNITY or in NUMBER?

Once again according to JESUS, not STRONGS CONCORDANCE and NOT MANS interpretation but given by (JESUS HIMSELF), what do you suppose Jesus Himself meant in the below verse:

You must have misunderstood me my dear friend. Take a look at (WE) and (THEY). Once again Brad, it is not how I or YOU define ONE, how does JESUS HIMSELF define ONE in the above verse. If Jesus Himself referred to us or we as a numerical one, is His understanding flawed? Would Jesus be INCORRECT in saying that we are a NUMERICAL ONE in the above verse, "EVEN AS" He(Jesus) and{kai} His (Father) are ONE?

I have given you a message that is to be easily understood by the Spiritual man. What most of the creation fails to realize is that God came to Unite us as one, in accordance and perfect harmony, do you not see the Body of Christ and its members being "One" in agreement as GLORIOUS? Even as of now we are all scattered about in disaccordance even in the body of the church. At the "End of the Age" when Eternity begins, you will then see for yourself the True meaning of ONE! A oneness that even man in their fleshly body cannot fully comprehend. And I leave with this message my friend hoping that the eyes to your heart be opened and that your mind and spiritual understanding be broadened!

God Bless!

[hisway]

Whilst I appreciate that Modalism is easier to understand than Trinitarianism, another member of this forum quite rightly pointed out that Jesus qualified his own witness and his father's witness to be the witness of two persons.

To say that Jesus and The Father are the same person (which is what I understand Modalism to be), is to deny Jesus' word that his witness and his father's witness was the witness of TWO.

Modalism and all its "isms" are terms fabricated by the Catholics to discredit the Oneness Apostolic believers of the early church whom refused to accept the new doctrine of the trinity as I proved in my post: "Modalism: Heresy Or Catholic Persecution Of Truth?"

Furthermore, in the "Trinity Debate" thread I have fully exposed the fallacy of the doctrine of the trinity - see pages 11-12 on that thread.

Oneness does not deny Jesus' word that His witness and His Father's witness was the witness of two. In the case of the Father (the ONE omnipresent Spirit of God - invisible form of God) gave witness to the Son (the visible form of God). I have fully proved that the Son could not have pre-existed as a co-equal and co-eternal person in a triune godhead. The terms "Father" and "Son" do not describe separate persons in a trinity but do describe the roles the ONE God has taken on in His relationship to mankind. (see pages 11-12, "Trinity Debate" thread)

[Aineo]

Furthermore, in the "Trinity Debate" thread I have fully exposed the fallacy of the doctrine of the trinity - see pages 11-12 on that thread.

You have not exposed the fallacy of anything all you oneness adherents has fully exposed is your dependence on human philosophy. If your only defense concerning Modalism and the other "isms" is the Catholic Church then you are simply showing a lack of depth in your own Bible study.

[hisway]

Furthermore, in the "Trinity Debate" thread I have fully exposed the fallacy of the doctrine of the trinity - see pages 11-12 on that thread.

You have not exposed the fallacy of anything all you oneness adherents has fully exposed is your dependence on human philosophy. If your only defense concerning Modalism and the other "isms" is the Catholic Church then you are simply showing a lack of depth in your own Bible study.

I would like to add page 13 in the Trinity Debate thread as a must read.

[BradtheImpaler]

{quote]You must have misunderstood me my dear friend. Take a look at (WE) and (THEY). Once again Brad, it is not how I or YOU define ONE, how does JESUS HIMSELF define ONE in the above verse. If Jesus Himself referred to us or we as a numerical one, is His understanding flawed? Would Jesus be INCORRECT in saying that we are a NUMERICAL ONE in the above verse, "EVEN AS" He(Jesus) and{kai} His (Father) are ONE?
[/quote]

Jesus referred to us/we as a numerical one - a numerically one WHAT?

[(Omega)]

Your missing the point Brad, Jesus used the word "One"{heis} which is a numerical One in reference to "we" and "us"
My point is, was Jesus incorrect in using the "Numerical One" in reference to we, us or they? How many people are we or they? Very simple brad a very simple concept.

God Bless!

[BradtheImpaler]

Your missing the point Brad, Jesus used the word "One"{heis} which is a numerical One in reference to "we" and "us"
My point is, was Jesus incorrect in using the "Numerical One" in reference to we, us or they? How many people are we or they? Very simple brad a very simple concept.

"We/they" is one GROUP of people -

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"(Jn.17:22)

Christians can be one with each other the same way that Jesus is one with the Father, that's the context. One in purpose, intent, love, etc.

[Aineo]

Jesus referred to us/we as a numerical one - a numerically one WHAT?

A numerically one God with 2 seperate wills, add the Holy Spirit and His will and you have the Trinity, which is clearly revealed in Scripture for those with a mind to understand what the Spirit is teaching the ekklesia of Jesus the Messiah.

I would like to add page 13 in the Trinity Debate thread as a must read.

All you showed on page 13 is you don't understand what the word will means.

10 entries found for will.
will1 P Pronunciation Key (w l)n. 1. a. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination. b. The act of exercising the will. 2. a. Diligent purposefulness; determination: an athlete with the will to win. b. Self-control; self-discipline: lacked the will to overcome the addiction. 3. A desire, purpose, or determination, especially of one in authority: It is the sovereign's will that the prisoner be spared. 4. Deliberate intention or wish: Let it be known that I took this course of action against my will. 5. Free discretion; inclination or pleasure: wandered about, guided only by will. 6. Bearing or attitude toward others; disposition: full of good will. 7. a. A legal declaration of how a person wishes his or her possessions to be disposed of after death. b. A legally executed document containing this declaration. v. willed, will·ing, wills v. tr. 1. To decide on; choose. 2. To yearn for; desire: “She makes you will your own destruction” (George Bernard Shaw). 3. To decree, dictate, or order. 4. To resolve with a forceful will; determine. 5. To induce or try to induce by sheer force of will: We willed the sun to come out. 6. To grant in a legal will; bequeath. v. intr. 1. To exercise the will. 2. To make a choice; choose. Idiom:at will Just as or when one wishes.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=will

[Aineo]

Christians can be one with each other the same way that Jesus is one with the Father, that's the context. One in purpose, intent, love, etc.

Christians are one body with many wills who live in obedience to the will of God, we have His will revealed to us but we don't have His will within us or we would be perfect.

[Snipe]

Only He who does the will of the Father will inherit life. So we can recieve that will in us.

There is only one God and Father of all who is above all and in us all. Only one God who is Father, there are not three gods in one. He is manifested in three, Father (creator of all), son (His holy Word), and Spirit (self-explanitory). There is only one God and there will only be one God and none is like Him.

I don't understand why protestants talk down about catholics, and still hold true their created doctrines and rituals... don't really understand that one...

[Aineo]

Snipe, if any human being could obtain the "will" of God within us then as I stated we would be perfect and I will add totally sinless (as Jesus was and is).

I don't understand why protestants talk down about catholics, and still hold true their created doctrines and rituals... don't really understand that one...

Since not all "Protestants" accept or practice the "created doctrines and rituals" of the Catholic Church your statement is false.

[BradtheImpaler]

Jesus referred to us/we as a numerical one - a numerically one WHAT?

A numerically one God with 2 seperate wills, add the Holy Spirit and His will and you have the Trinity, which is clearly revealed in Scripture for those with a mind to understand what the Spirit is teaching the ekklesia of Jesus the Messiah.

But SEVERAL GODS would have "seperate wills"...SEVERAL GODS would be "distinct persons"...SEVERAL GODS would be "members" of all the deity that exists...your understanding of "one God" is NO DIFFERENT from "MORE than one God", except that you insist on LABELLING it "one God". That is all I am trying to point out at this moment - not even whether the bible teaches the Trinity or not, but that if the Trinity IS taught, it is no different, in concept, from polytheism. All the necessary elements that would constitute a "council of gods" are present in the description of the Trinity.

Do you understand?

[Aineo]

The Lord our God is one. What you refuse to accept is the NT revelation of God is found in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[Snipe]

Aineo-

My statement is far from false. Many do still practice them and by you standing for the trinity doctrine, you would fall into this category which is why you wish it were false. Now there may be some that don't, but that does not make my statement false. But rather, just not applicable to every denomination. Give me one scripture where it says there are three gods in one. None says that, but men surely love to use their imagination to create something that is not said.

NOt sure what you mean by obtain the will of God, but a person can surely do His will. Otherwise He would not have gave us commandments or a way of life to live. Being as though He does not give us anything we cannot handle, it is evident that one can do what GOd wants them to do.

Now as far as perfect, none can be perfect. If you never sin again, you still will not be perfect b/c you already have. I agree no one can be perfect, but if you think you cannot do God's will, I feel sorry for you brother.

[Aineo]

Snipe, go back and reread your comment concerning "Protestants" practicing what Catholicism teaches. That statement is in fact false, which you admit in the above post.

Also if you had taken the time to read my post I stated that mankind can obey the will of God. So you are disagreeing with me and then telling me that if I don't believe we can obey the will of God you feel sorry for me.

The Trinity as distinct persons is taught in Scripture and the fact the Catholic Church and non-Catholic churches agree on this does not make it invalid. I don't know of very many Protestants churches that pray to dead saints, venerate the dead through images, believe in purgatory, believe in transubstantiation, or any other of the pagan beliefs imported into Catholicism so your statement that Protestants practice the same rituals and doctrines as the Catholic Church remains a false statement inspite of your denial.

[BradtheImpaler]

:D The Lord our God is one. What you refuse to accept is the NT revelation of God is found in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I'm not even to the point of refusing to accept something - I'm still waiting for you or anyone to EXPLAIN what it is you're saying.

I could believe in 9 million Gods and claim they were "one" in judgement, will, intent, and "one" by nature of each being "deity" - but all that wouldn't make them all the SAME GOD, it would just mean that there were a bunch of Gods who were "one" in several different ways.

At the risk of initiating another "Who's On First" type conversation, what exactly do you MEAN when you say the Lord our God is ONE?

[BradtheImpaler]

Just a reminder, take heed that "NO MAN" Deceives you.

God Bless!

I AM "taking heed that no man deceive me", which is what I believe YOU are attempting to do! (although not intentionally, as you yourself have already been deceived)

It is no use quoting Jesus and trying to dispense with "man's interpretation" of what Jesus said. EVERYTHING is subject to interpretation, as proven by the way that you and I have different interpretations of the very verses at hand. The question is who has the correct interpretation? Which interpretation is NOT self-contradictory?

Now, in my continuing struggle to present the question in a manner which cannot be misinterpretted or evaded by a Trinitarian....

When you read the many references in scripture that attest that "there is only one God", and as you, indeed, heartily support that very statement, do you regard that statement as "numerical" or not? Meaning, do you believe that when it says there is only one God, that means there is only one God AS OPPOSED to there being 2 or more Gods?

[Snipe]

Aineo-

"I don't understand why protestants talk down about catholics, and still hold true their created doctrines and rituals... don't really understand that one..."

Now let's look at what I said. First of all, there are two parts to this statement beore it can be aplicable to anyone to be true or false.

Why do protestants talk down about catholics (first peice) so one would have to be a protestant that talks badly about catholics first, in order for this to be directed about them. Is this you? (don't want your answer, just something to think about)

Secondly, and still hold true their created doctrines/rituals (second peice) spo one would have to hold on to ritual and doctrines that they created (i.e not biblical, but created by man) Is this you?

The only reason you wish I was lying is because your spirit convicts you, so you try to damage my image, to make you feel better.

So if you are not a protestant who talks down on catholics or one that holds true their created doctrine, this would not apply to you. But if you are, then it is surely true, b/c you meet the criteria.

I feel this is sad that I have to break down basic english and sentence structure to you. First part is talking down and still following their doctrines (hypocrisy). If both parts are met, then it applies. Did I ever say all protestants.

I know protestants who don't speak badly about pagans, or muslims, so in no way could I say all protestant. Stop trying to make me look bad and understand for yourself what is being said.

Now lets look at the second statment I made

"NOt sure what you mean by obtain the will of God, but a person can surely do His will. "

I simply said, I'm not sure what you meant. I never said you said one could not do God's will or could. I just simply said, I didn't really understand what was meant by the post (i.e. Not sure what you mean), and spoke on that matter.

Now as far as His will being in us. Christ said you my word abide in you. Do I need to give you a def for abide. Is not God's word His will? Can a man know GOd's will without His word? If His Word and Spirit dwell in you, is not His will in them which is in you?

Friend I hope that you will see these things as an attempt to edify and not tear down brother. If you can take these things, then I'm sure you will respond appropriately.

Now back to the subject. If you are completely stuck in your view on three persons making one god. Does 3=1? The dust is off of my feet on this issue

Love You Brother

P.S
You still gave no scripture that says that God has members, specifically 3. Try finding scripture that says this before you go head over heels for the teachings of men... be at peace...

[Aineo]

First, I don't "talk down Catholics" I debate their doctrines. Second, as I already explained just because the Catholic Church teaches error as well as truth does not make the truth they teach erroneous teachings.

What you oneness folks refuse to accept is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are portrayed as distinct "wills" that have the ability to make decisions independent of the other "wills". All three (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are ONE and all three are God.

Third "abide" means to "live in".

John 8:31-32

31 Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. " NAS

John 15:4-10
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you. 8 "By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. NAS

Even in this section of John you see Jesus and the Father as 2 (not one).

Now as far as His will being in us. Christ said you my word abide in you. Do I need to give you a def for abide. Is not God's word His will? Can a man know GOd's will without His word? If His Word and Spirit dwell in you, is not His will in them which is in you?

Do you really understand what you posted? The Holy Spirit and the Word (Jesus) both dwell in you. Now add John 17 and you have the Trinity in you because Jesus prays in John 17 that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. Three entities that are part and parcel the one God.

Can we obey God’s will as revealed in God’s word? Yes, but we do not have God’s will abiding in us; we have our own will that we must by choice place under His sovereign control. Jesus is God and had living in obedience to the Father (God) as His only goal (Luke 22:42).

Romans 2:14-16
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. NAS

You seem to have chosen to ignore these verses. You see Snipe it is possible to live in obedience to God without His written word.

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. NAS

Matthew 12:50
50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." NAS

1 John 2:17
17 And the world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God abides forever. NAS

Now can you find me a Scripture that states we “have the will of the Father” dwelling in us?

I fully understood your accusation concerning Protestants debating Catholicism (not condemning Catholics as people), and that you seem to lack a full understanding of many Protestants who do not follow Catholicism’s pagan beliefs.

P.S
You still gave no scripture that says that God has members, specifically 3. Try finding scripture that says this before you go head over heels for the teachings of men... be at peace...

When one rightly divides the word of truth one can see the Trinity taught in many Scriptures. So before you follow the teachings of men I suggest you get into God’s word with a will to understand what God has revealed to mankind through the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The only reason you wish I was lying is because your spirit convicts you, so you try to damage my image, to make you feel better.

I see this statement applying more to those who deny the truth of the Trinity than those who accept God’s revealed truth.

[Snipe]

Aineo-

Friend, first off, I never accused you of lying. You accused me, but I did not.

As far as His will dwelling in us, I never said it is or it is not, and until God shows me truth on this matter, I don't take either side. Those questions are just for reflection. Now God's will is in his word, I'm sure you would agree with that. Now if His word, which possesses His will is in us, then it is hard to say that we don't have God's will in us.

I never made a comment about someone needing His written word and I agree with you completely that one can be obedient naturally. Yet, if they never read the word, yet have the will of God guiding them, that will must be within b/c they did not get it from without. (Not saying you are wrong, just reflecting on your train of thought). Meditating on what you read is more important that a simple understanding of the words, though that is completely necessary.

If I gave you the impression that I was saying you do talk down to catholics, forgive me. My intention was just to have you think about whether or not you do.

You say you see that more in "oneness" folks. So in what way have I tried to damage your image? I have not called you a liar, but you say that I am without understanding of what I said. In what way am I guilty of slandering you? Now if what you said was true, I would in no way say you have tried to damage my image, but would have thanked you for correcting me.

I agree with you, the three are One, but not three. As in your qouted verse, Christ says, if my word abides in you. Yet His word was the Father's word. Truly they are one in the same. The word was God. With His word He created, by it was everything created. Is God a separate individual than His words. Is God separate from His Spirit. Are you and your spirit and your words, three different people living in one body? Of course not.

Now as for following men... don't worry brother, I do not. You tell me to get into the word and I thank you for that b/c that thought may come to mind if I start to slip away. But trust me, His word controls my mind, it is always there. That is why I talk freely, b/c the words are already there.

Now, concerning this trinity doctrine, I will listen to what else you have to say in response to this. And then I will pray about it (hopefully you will as well). But as yet, God does not show me truth in your words concerning this matter.

Love Always,
D

[Aineo]

I agree with you, the three are One, but not three.

And that Snipe is the Trinity. Each of the three with a different role, each of the three with the ability to use their separate wills in unity as one in essence (nature) and purpose.

I don’t believe I called you a liar or even insinuated you lied or are a liar. I did post that you posted a generality concerning Protestants that was false. So, if you took what I posted as calling you a liar that was not my intent.

As to having God’s will within us, this is partially true because we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit who knows the mind of God and therefore know God’s will. However, we as individuals must decide to obey what we know (through the word and the conviction of the Spirit) to be God’s will. Paul expands on this in Romans 7 where he admits to coveting. I don’t know anyone who does not covet a better job, a nicer home or car, a better computer, and etc. This one sin is the downfall of humanity, that and pride.

The only source of truth for living a Christian life is God’s word. Therefore all of us should study His word to gain understanding and pray for His guidance in understanding what the Holy Spirit inspired God’s servants to write for our benefit and education. I have been reading and studying God’s word for about 50 years and every time I read the Bible I learn something new.

May God bless your studies and answer all your prayers.

[BradtheImpaler]

And that Snipe is the Trinity. Each of the three with a different role, each of the three with the ability to use their separate wills in unity as one in essence (nature) and purpose.

How is this different from 3 GODS? Couldn't/wouldn't 3 Gods have different roles, seperate wills, and the ability to act in unity of purpose? Wouldn't 3 seperate Gods all have one nature - the nature of "deity"?

What would constitute one God? ONE (divine) person. The concept of the Trinity is as a "celestial siamese triplet" - 3 Gods stuck together claiming to be one.

[Aineo]

How is this different from 3 GODS? Couldn't/wouldn't 3 Gods have different roles, seperate wills, and the ability to act in unity of purpose? Wouldn't 3 seperate Gods all have one nature - the nature of "deity"?

What would constitute one God? ONE (divine) person. The concept of the Trinity is as a "celestial siamese triplet" - 3 Gods stuck together claiming to be one.

Your understanding of the Trinity is colored by human logic and denies what is taught in Scripture. “Siamese triplets” would be limited in mobility and far from independent of each other while in Scripture the Trinity is portrayed as equal in status, abilities, and characteristics while acting independently of each other.

One God is one divinity, the use of the word “person” in trying to explain the Trinity is a poor human expression to explain God’s reality and that BradtheImpaler is what you refuse to accept. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have different roles yet are ONE God, united and unchangeable throughout eternity past and future.

es·sence P Pronunciation Key ( s ns)
n.
1. The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something.
2. The most important ingredient; the crucial element.
3. The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things.
4.
a. An extract that has the fundamental properties of a substance in concentrated form.
b. Such an extract in a solution of alcohol.
c. A perfume or scent.
5. One that has or shows an abundance of a quality as if highly concentrated: a neighbor who is the essence of hospitality.
6. Something that exists, especially a spiritual or incorporeal entity.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=essence

[BradtheImpaler]

One God is one divinity, the use of the word “person” in trying to explain the Trinity is a poor human expression to explain God’s reality and that BradtheImpaler is what you refuse to accept

But I didn't come up with the term "person/persons" in this matter, Trinitarians did. If it's a "poor human expression" why do you insist on it? Is your purpose to intentionally mislead?

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have different roles yet are ONE God, united and unchangeable throughout eternity past and future

How are THEY "one God"? You only need one "HE" to constitute one divinity. If I describe the many gods of a polytheistic religion, I would, of course, refer to them as "they". You say your God is a "They" yet is only one God. It's self-contradictory nonsense.

es·sence P Pronunciation Key ( s ns)
n.
1. The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something.
2. The most important ingredient; the crucial element.
3. The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things.
4.
a. An extract that has the fundamental properties of a substance in concentrated form.
b. Such an extract in a solution of alcohol.
c. A perfume or scent.
5. One that has or shows an abundance of a quality as if highly concentrated: a neighbor who is the essence of hospitality.
6. Something that exists, especially a spiritual or incorporeal entity.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?
=essence

[/quote]

I understand the definition - what does this have to do with making your case?

[Aineo]

BradtheImpaler, you can pick my posts apart all you want but when you do that you do not read with understanding. The Trinity is portrayed in Scripture as 3 distinct "persons" so Trinitarians use the term "persons" to explain that the Trinity is 3 "persons" but only 1 God. Word’s communicate concepts therefore we have to use common words to try to explain the unexplainable.

If you think your finite human mind can comprehend the one and only infinite God then you my friends are self-deceived.

[Snipe]

Aineo-

I guess I took that the wrong way. Understand that I am always being judged by others for things which are not true. I guess I was thinking here we go again. My apologies for that.

About God's will, I don't think I understand what you mean by God's will being in us, maybe if you said it some other way.

BradtheImplar

There is no trinity friend. When I say the three are one. I am saying one God, who is manifested in three ways. He is revealed to us by His Creation (Father- Creator of life), He is revealed to us in His Word (Son- the bread of life/ HIs living Word) and He is revealed to us by His Holy Spirit.

I see I will have to qoute some scripture for this statment I'm about to say

Ephesians 4:30 - And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 4:8 - He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Peter 1:11 - Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


Now looking at these four verses, we have two citing God/Father's Holy Spirit and two stating Spirit of Christ. As you see, the Holy Spirit is the Father's, not a equal.

Ephesians 4:6 - One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

NOw this verse said ONE GOD and Father of all. The Father is the only God, yet He is manifested by HIs word (son) and HIs holy spirit which resides in us. So in this way the three are One God, b/c they are how He manifested Himself to the world, through His creation, by His word and Spirit. This in not trinitarian.

1 John 5:7-8 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Now, as we look at this scripture, we see from verse seven, Father, Word, and Spirit are one and not three, but One. And verse eight, says the spirit, water, and blood agree in one. Do you see the difference. The three on earth agree as/in one [accord] which is what trinitarians say about God. That He is three persons with making one God, who is the same in purpose. But I trust God will show you as He did me, why there is a distinction b/w the THESE THREE ARE ONE and the THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE. He made it so that we don't get it mixed up.

I hope this answered your questions about the three being part of one God. It is three manifestations of Him who is Forever.

[Aineo]

There is no trinity friend. When I say the three are one. I am saying one God, who is manifested in three ways. He is revealed to us by His Creation (Father- Creator of life), He is revealed to us in His Word (Son- the bread of life/ HIs living Word) and He is revealed to us by His Holy Spirit.

Three "persons" in ONE God.

BTW:

Proverbs 8:22-31

22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 "From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 "When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 "Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.
27 "When He established the heavens, I was there,
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary,
So that the water should not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of men. NAS

Colossians 1:9-23

9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. 21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. NAS

Hebrews 1:1-5
1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,

"Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee"? NAS

Jesus is the Creator of life in OT prophecies and in NT revelations of God’s truth and was with the Father from the beginning.

[BradtheImpaler]

BradtheImpaler, you can pick my posts apart all you want but when you do that you do not read with understanding.

So in other words no matter how much I can pick your posts apart you are always right anyway? I guess there's no use in discussion if anytime I point out the error of your reasoning you are allowed to wriggle out by consigning it to MY "lack of understanding"? Who made these groundrules?

The Trinity is portrayed in Scripture as 3 distinct "persons" so Trinitarians use the term "persons" to explain that the Trinity is 3 "persons" but only 1 God. Word’s communicate concepts therefore we have to use common words to try to explain the unexplainable

Please give the scriptural reference where it says God is 3 persons?

If you think your finite human mind can comprehend the one and only infinite God then you my friends are self-deceived.

The problem with the Trinity is not that it cannot be comprehended but that it is SELF-CONTRADICTORY. Let me explain the difference. I cannot COMPREHEND what it is like that God had no beginning (i.e.-is "eternal")
but I understand that it is LOGICAL that there had to be someone or something that was always there - an "uncaused cause" so to speak. I cannot comprehend eternity, but it is not illogical. Now the Trinity, however, is not only incomprehensible, but ALSO self-contradictory and illogical -

3 persons cannot be one God because it is said that each person is "not the other". If they are not each other how can they be one being? How can anyone or anything not be himself/itself?

or...

How can one being be his own Father and his own Son? I can go on and on with these examples. Again, it's not a question of God not being able to do or be anything, it's that the only way these propositions can maintain rationality is that there is MORE than one God. (or, only ONE of the supposed "members" is actually God in the absolute sense)

[Aineo]

Pulling a partial statement from a post does not prove your point. As to the Trinity I am correct per Scripture and centuries of teaching by men filled with the Holy Spirit. You can try to use semantics to prove anything, but when semantics can be used by both sides to reach differing conclusions then semantics becomes an exercise in futility. That is when understanding God's word becomes necessary. So far all you have done is harp on one or two words used to communicate concepts.

Once again and maybe this time you will read with comprehension. The Trinity is a revealed doctrine found in the OT and fully expressed in the NT. If you want a single verse that states that God is 3 in 1, there isn't one.

The problem with the Trinity is not that it cannot be comprehended but that it is SELF-CONTRADICTORY. Let me explain the difference. I cannot COMPREHEND what it is like that God had no beginning (i.e.-is "eternal")
but I understand that it is LOGICAL that there had to be someone or something that was always there - an "uncaused cause" so to speak. I cannot comprehend eternity, but it is not illogical. Now the Trinity, however, is not only incomprehensible, but ALSO self-contradictory and illogical -

What is logical about God becoming a man and then dying on a cross? By simple logic Jesus is not God since God cannot die, however the main theme of John’s Gospel is the divinity of Jesus Christ. Paul writes that Jesus created the world and in Proverbs we are told that Jesus was with the Father before creation. You can use logic all you want but you will only come to a false conclusion.

1 Corinthians 1:18-19

18 For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside." NAS

1 Corinthians 1:20-25
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. NAS

1 Corinthians 2:14-16
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. NAS

1 Corinthians 3:19-23
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness"; 20 and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless." 21 So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. NAS

I will accept the foolishness of God over the wisdom (logic) of men any day of the week.

[BradtheImpaler]

:D Pulling a partial statement from a post does not prove your point. As to the Trinity I am correct per Scripture and centuries of teaching by men filled with the Holy Spirit

Please identify these men and prove they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Also show how all men who were not Trinitarians were NOT filled with the Holy Spirit.

You can try to use semantics to prove anything, but when semantics can be used by both sides to reach differing conclusions then semantics becomes an exercise in futility

Please explain what you mean by "semantics" - the definition I have is "the meaning of language" - fairly important I'd say?

That is when understanding God's word becomes necessary. So far all you have done is harp on one or two words used to communicate concepts.

By now I hope most unbiased readers of these posts will realize that your constant "harping" about semantics is just you pushing the "escape button" on the discussion. Now you accuse me of harping on one or 2 words like this is so trivial on my part. The words in question are "one" and "person/persons", the understanding of which is CRUCIAL to the issue. Why do you choose words which you claim are for the purpose of "communicating concepts" if they DON'T?

I will wait patiently for you to provide definitions of these words (in relation to the Godhead subject) and then, once the correct concepts involved have been defined to your approval, we can apply them and see if they are self-contradictory or not.

Once again and maybe this time you will read with comprehension. The Trinity is a revealed doctrine found in the OT and fully expressed in the NT. If you want a single verse that states that God is 3 in 1, there isn't one.

So the Trinity is a "revealed doctrine" in the OT, although the Jews, the ONLY nation that God had revealed himself to at that time, knew NOTHING of it, and the Trinity is "fully expressed" in the NT, although you agree THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE IN THE NT THAT STATES THAT GOD IS 3 IN ONE?

Seems like an incredible oversight on God's part? Perhaps there were originally a lot of footnotes that went with the scriptures that were somehow lost?

What is logical about God becoming a man and then dying on a cross?

Nothing - cause it's not true.

By simple logic Jesus is not God since God cannot die,

Correct.

however the main theme of John’s Gospel is the divinity of Jesus Christ Paul writes that Jesus created the world and in Proverbs we are told that Jesus was with the Father before creation. You can use logic all you want but you will only come to a false conclusion.

These assertions are easily explained without making Jesus the 2nd person of an eternal Triad. I can give you the web address for the studies but will you take the time to read them or is your mind already made up? If you read 1/10th as much non-Trinitarian material as you have Trinitarian authors you might discover something - but this is all a dangerous proposition for those who may be afraid to find out they have been duped?

1 Corinthians 1:18-19

18 For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside." NAS

1 Corinthians 1:20-25
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. NAS

1 Corinthians 2:14-16
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. NAS

1 Corinthians 3:19-23
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness"; 20 and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless." 21 So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. NAS

I will accept the foolishness of God over the wisdom (logic) of men any day of the week.[/quote] [/quote]

Yes of course, and I could simply apply these quotes to YOU...what have you proven? If you really want to find out what the "wisdom of this world" is, take into account all the non-biblical terminology that the "wise" of this world have had to develop to substantiate the Trinity, all the counsels that were needed to decide on it, and all the unfortunates that were subsequently put to death because they were apparently not "wise" enough to receive it.

[(Omega)]

I believe the problem here is a lack of Understanding on how the word One is used in Scriptures according to the author and speaker.

First of all lets take a look at the for "one" in the Greek and it is {heis} or "hen". And hen can be used mathematically and can be used as a synonym for the word "unity".
Take for example this passage in scripture:Matthew 19:5 - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one{mia} flesh{sarx}?
Is a man and His wife literally One Flesh?
mia:3391 only one
sarx:4561 the body
Is not the Body of Christ which is one body comprised of many members?
1 Corinthians 12:27 - Now ye are (the body) of Christ, and (members) in particular.
A husband and his wife are one in unity (one flesh), but remain as two separate persons. Likewise with the disciples which are one in unity but remain separate as persons. God also is one in unity, however God remains as three separate persons that comprise of the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. I have stated this in another thread that God is indentified as One in Unity as in this particular verse: James 2:19 - Thou believest that there is one{hen}(Father, Son and Holy Spirit) God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James said 'one' thing, however he did say 'one' person. The word for one here is placed in the neuter which intimates the social concord, and not the personal unity. Furthermore when he says one it is in reference to the identity of the (judgment) and the agreement and of the association of love in itself. In other words the Father and the Son are "one" in their love, agreement and in affection. So in conclusion Jesus' claim I and the Father are one" is clearly Jesus' intention to the Pharisees that it is to be taken as a claim of equality with the Father.
The Pharisees failed to accept the Deity of Christ and His Union with the Father due to their own logic which is "mans", in other words the their worldly wisdom blinded them to spiritual understanding.

Once again, mans ways and Gods ways are not the same!


God Bless!

[Aineo]

So the Trinity is a "revealed doctrine" in the OT, although the Jews, the ONLY nation that God had revealed himself to at that time, knew NOTHING of it, and the Trinity is "fully expressed" in the NT, although you agree THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE VERSE IN THE NT THAT STATES THAT GOD IS 3 IN ONE?

And the Jews rejected their prophesied Messiah because they refused to accept what was prophesied concerning Jesus. So to appeal to the Jews while at the same time ignoring the fact that all the NT books, with the possible exception of Luke were written by Jews denies comprehension. Hebrews is especially important since this book was addressed to Jews. Now have you really studied Hebrews?

2 Timothy 2:14-17

14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. 16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. NAS

NT:3054

logomacheo (log-om-akh-eh'-o); from a compound of NT:3056 and NT:3164; to be disputatious (on trifles):


KJV - strive about words.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:3054

logomacheoo, logomachoo;

to contend about words; contextually, to wrangle about empty and trifling matters: 2 Timothy 2:14
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

What I find interesting about you non-Trinitarians is you refuse to address or respond to those Scriptures that show the Trinity is truth. You prefer to deal with and argue (wrangle) over one or two words and avoid that words convey concepts.

se·man·tics P Pronunciation Key (s -m n t ks)
n. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)
1. Linguistics. The study or science of meaning in language.
2. Linguistics. The study of relationships between signs and symbols and what they represent. Also called semasiology.
3. The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form: We're basically agreed; let's not quibble over semantics.
se·man·tics (s -m n t ks)
n.
1. The study or science of meaning in language forms.
2. The study of the relationships between various signs and symbols and what they represent.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=semantics

Omega did an excellent job defining the Greek word used in many NT passages that state Jesus and the Father are one. The word used in these Scripture is:

NT:1520

heis (hice); (including the neuter [etc.] hen); a primary numeral; one:


KJV - a (-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also NT:1527, NT:3367, NT:3391, NT:3762.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


NT:1520
heis, mia, hen,
a cardinal numeral, one.
1. universally,
a. in opposed to many; and
<START GREEK>a<END GREEK>. added to nouns after the manner of an adjective: Matthew 25:15
<START GREEK>b<END GREEK>. substantively, with a partitive genitive -- to denote one, whichever it may be: Matthew 5:19
<START GREEK>g<END GREEK>. absolutely: Matthew 23:8-10
b. in opposition to a division into parts, and in ethical matters to dissensions: Romans 12:4 f
c. with a negative following joined to the verb, no one, Matthew 10:29
2. emphatically, so that others are excluded, and eis is the same as:
a. a single Matthew 21:24
b. alone: Mark 2:7
c. one and the same Romans 3:30
3. the numerical force of eis is often so weakened that it hardly differs from the indefinite pronoun tis, or from our indefinite article Matthew 8:19
4. it is used distributively
a. eis ... kai eis, one ... and one: Matthew 17:4
b. eis hekastos, everyone: Acts 2:6
c. a solecism (a deviation from normal word order)
everyone, one by one, Mark 14:19
5. like the Hebrew 'echaad, eis is put for the ordinal prootos, first the first day of the week, Matthew 28:1
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

This is the Greek word for the cardinal number one.

John 10:25-30
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one." NAS

John 17:21-23
22 "And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me. NAS

The true church or Body of Christ is “heis” (one).

Jesus plainly states the Father and He are one in number. However, they are not the same entity or “person”.

Now if it is your desire to debate the meaning of words then we need to debate them in the original language with the full understanding of what the original language conveys.

John 10:30

I and my Father are one.

[I and my Father are one.] If Jesus Christ were not God, could he have said these words without being guilty of blasphemy? It is worthy of remark that Christ does not say, I and MY Father, which my our translation very improperly supplies, and which in this place would have conveyed a widely different meaning: for then it would imply that the human nature of Christ, of which alone, I conceive, God is ever said to be the Father in Scripture, was equal to the Most High: but he says, speaking then as God over all, I and THE Father, egoo (NT:1473) kai (NT:2532) ho (NT:3588) pateer (NT:3962) hen (NT:1520) esmen (NT:2070)-the Creator of all things, the Judge of all men, the Father of the spirits of all flesh-are ONE, ONE in nature, ONE in all the attributes of Godhead, and ONE in all the operations of those attributes: and so it is evident the Jews understood him. See John 17:11,22.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)
John 17:17-23
17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth. 18 "As Thou didst send Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 20 "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me. 22 "And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me. NAS

Who is our Savior God or Jesus the Messiah?

Titus 1:1-4
1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, 3 but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior; 4 to Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
NAS

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. NAS

It would appear Paul cannot make up his mind if God is our Savior or if Jesus is our Savior.

How do we determine is someone is teaching by the fullness of the Spirit? By what they teach and how what they teach aligns with Biblical truth.

[Snipe]

Aineo-

Friend, let God be judge b/w us. I was talking to Brad the Implar. Do feel free to talk about what I say, but please do not direct it at me. For this issue is over, I have spoken and you have stated your case. I can do nothing but speak and if you accept good and if not, well.

Now if you want to, we can move on from the trinity and discuss Christ being Creator. I agree that Christ created. The Father spoke forth light and it was made. Christ, being the word of God, was spoken and light was made. The Father truly made all things by/through Christ (i.e His Word) As it said the Word (God/Creator) was made flesh. Not one God spoke forth light and another God went and created it. As far as the qoute from Prov. that is wisdom that is speaking. Is God's word not wisdom? Truly Christ is the image of the invisible God, because He made God manifest in the flesh.

Brad-

It would seem that you are correct in stating regardless how much you pick something apart, you will not get credit. One cannot hear truth unless they are willing or ready to accept it; It is hard for people to humbly admit their mistakes and being wrong at times, but pray for them friend. In due time, those who seek the truth will know it. Until then, keep meditating friend.

Omega-

Are you saying that there is more than one God? From your post, I see the example of a man and wife's oneness as unity, but yet, you claim they are two different persons still. Now, if you apply that to Christ and the Father, that makes them in unity in thought and intent, but separate dieties.

As I qouted before, we have one God and Father of all.
Now if Christ is God, then He is the Father, thus one God and not three. NOw, if you are saying Christ is not God, that is a different matter all together. I am not trying to put words into your mouth, but rather trying to understand what you mean and reflect on your words.

[BradtheImpaler]

I believe the problem here is a lack of Understanding on how the word One is used in Scriptures according to the author and speaker.

First of all lets take a look at the for "one" in the Greek and it is {heis} or "hen". And hen can be used mathematically and can be used as a synonym for the word "unity".
Take for example this passage in scripture:Matthew 19:5 - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one{mia} flesh{sarx}?
Is a man and His wife literally One Flesh?
mia:3391 only one
sarx:4561 the body
Is not the Body of Christ which is one body comprised of many members?
1 Corinthians 12:27 - Now ye are (the body) of Christ, and (members) in particular.
A husband and his wife are one in unity (one flesh), but remain as two separate persons. Likewise with the disciples which are one in unity but remain separate as persons. God also is one in unity, however God remains as three separate persons that comprise of the Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. I have stated this in another thread that God is indentified as One in Unity as in this particular verse: James 2:19 - Thou believest that there is one{hen}(Father, Son and Holy Spirit) God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James said 'one' thing, however he did say 'one' person. The word for one here is placed in the neuter which intimates the social concord, and not the personal unity. Furthermore when he says one it is in reference to the identity of the (judgment) and the agreement and the association of love in itself. In other words the Father and the Son are one in love, agreement and in affection. So in conclusion Jesus' claim I and the Father are one" is clearly Jesus' intention to the Pharisees that it is to be taken as a claim of equality with the Father.
The Pharisees failed to accept the Deity of Christ and His Union with the Father due to their own logic which is "mans", in other words the their worldly wisdom blinded them to spiritual understanding.

Very good Omega - you have just demonstrated that you do not believe that there is literally one God but that God is "one" only metaphorically -

When it says that a man and wife shall be "one flesh" it means that in a metaphorical sense. Everyone understands that just from the context. That is, we know that these 2 persons are not LITERALLY one flesh, but they are one in a manner of speaking. Similarly, when it speaks of believers being "one", it does not mean they are the same literal BEING, but that they share some type of "oneness". I can't imagine anyone that would disagree with this understanding. Now you, by just applying this understanding of being "one" to the Father/Son/Spirit have shown that you do not really believe that God is one being, but that the Father/Son/Spirit have a oneness of purpose and will. Following the examples you have cited, the Father/Son/Spirit are no more literally the same entity than a man and a wife are, or the members of a church are -

You do not believe in one God (mathematically), you believe in 3 Gods which act in unison.

Of course, you will not admit to having 3 Gods, because you have been trained not to say that - but, by your very own choice of examples you demonstrate that you do not believe that God is one being, but 3, in the same sense that a man and wife remain 2 beings and the church is composed of many beings.

Now let's go return to the essence of my original post -

Do you not realize that in the polytheistic mythology of the Greeks and Romans (etc.) that many of their gods were thought to be "one" in the same sense that a man and wife are "one" per your example? Many pagan deities were thought to be "family members". Many of them could be "one" in purpose also. The point is one could easily entertain belief in a group of gods which could be said to be "one" to the same extent that you believe the true God is "one" AND IT WOULD NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY, IN CONCEPT, WERE MANY GODS.

[(Omega)]

Omega-

Are you saying that there is more than one God? From your post, I see the example of a man and wife's oneness as unity, but yet, you claim they are two different persons still. Now, if you apply that to Christ and the Father, that makes them in unity in thought and intent, but separate dieties.

As I qouted before, we have one God and Father of all.
Now if Christ is God, then He is the Father, thus one God and not three. NOw, if you are saying Christ is not God, that is a different matter all together. I am not trying to put words into your mouth, but rather trying to understand what you mean and reflect on your words.

Very good Omega - you have just demonstrated that you do not believe that there is literally one God but that God is "one" only metaphorically -

When it says that a man and wife shall be "one flesh" it means that in a metaphorical sense. Everyone understands that just from the context. That is, we know that these 2 persons are not LITERALLY one flesh, but they are one in a manner of speaking. Similarly, when it speaks of believers being "one", it does not mean they are the same literal BEING, but that they share some type of "oneness". I can't imagine anyone that would disagree with this understanding. Now you, by just applying this understanding of being "one" to the Father/Son/Spirit have shown that you do not really believe that God is one being, but that the Father/Son/Spirit have a oneness of purpose and will. Following the examples you have cited, the Father/Son/Spirit are no more literally the same entity than a man and a wife are, or the members of a church are -

You do not believe in one God (mathematically), you believe in 3 Gods which act in unison.

Of course, you will not admit to having 3 Gods, because you have been trained not to say that - but, by your very own choice of examples you demonstrate that you do not believe that God is one being, but 3, in the same sense that a man and wife remain 2 beings and the church is composed of many beings.

Now let's go return to the essence of my original post -

Do you not realize that in the polytheistic mythology of the Greeks and Romans (etc.) that many of their gods were thought to be "one" in the same sense that a man and wife are "one" per your example? Many pagan deities were thought to be "family members". Many of them could be "one" in purpose also. The point is one could easily entertain belief in a group of gods which could be said to be "one" to the same extent that you believe the true God is "one" AND IT WOULD NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT THEY, IN CONCEPT, WERE MANY GODS.

Here is what both of you fail to realize, and as for me I have no problem HUMBLY SUBMITTING to the Truth, as a matter of fact I have, and that TRUTH is found within Scriptures if one is willing to understand with their hearts. Furthermore one should be cautious in attempting to discerns ones reason as to why they do not submit to the Truth, whether it be lack of humility or lack of understanding, or both.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but (ONE GOD), (the Father), of whom are all things, and we in him; (and) one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Key word is"and"{kai}

They are (separate) Deities if they are CREATED! This is where ALL who fail to comprehend the Doctrine of the Triune God fail to realize. What you fail to realize is that Christ in Uncreated, whereas man and woman are. When one is born in to this world He/She becomes a person, separate in body and distinct from the Creator. The Uncreated "Son of God" is both ever-existing and of the same essence and judgment. If the Father, Son and Spirit are all ever-existing and each member uncreated and in absolute agreement and essence, does that truly make it more than "One Deity"? FALSE PAGAN gods are CREATED!
Did one member of the Godhead suddenly decide to agree with the other member, or have they always and eternally been in absolute agreement?

John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may (be) one, EVEN AS{kathos} we are one:
Even as:according as
And as for us, Jesus prayed that "we" may one day Become One in Unity, Christ did not become One with His Father, He always was! Do you understand this my friend?

And BTW, meditation is Good especially in "the Word". However when one meditates on teachings that is founded on mans understanding and logic and not the Spiritual , then one becomes Indoctrinated with it and is hardened in their belief to the point as to where the truth is far from them. In false religions men and women meditate to come in communion with their false gods, in reality they invite their doctrines into them and a "spirit" of falsehood which at most times take control of their understanding.

Be not deceived, the more you meditate on false teachings, the deeper it will sink into your conscience. And the outcome is that the Truth will be beyond your reality!

God Bless!

[BradtheImpaler]

Here is what both of you fail to realize, and as for me I have no problem HUMBLY SUBMITTING to the Truth, as a matter of fact I have, and that TRUTH is found within Scriptures if one is willing to understand with their hearts. Furthermore one should be cautious in attempting to discerns ones reason as to why they do not submit to the Truth, whether it be lack of humility or lack of understanding, or both.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but (ONE GOD), (the Father), of whom are all things, and we in him; (and) one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

How ironic you would choose a verse that absolutely describes the Father as the "One God", - not the Father AND Son. The preceeding passage declares there are "many lords and gods" (pagan) and then assigns the Father to the category of "God" and Christ to the category of "Lord", and doesn't even mention the Holy Spirit. This verse is perhaps THE most direct address of the Godhead issue in scripture, and the fact is, if you are as honest as you claim to be in searching for the truth, you will have to admit that a TRINITARIAN would NEVER have offered such a description as this.

Key word is"and"{kai}

They are (separate) Deities if they are CREATED! This is where ALL who fail to comprehend the Doctrine of the Triune God fail to realize. What you fail to realize is that Christ in Uncreated, whereas man and woman are. When one is born in to this world He/She becomes a person, separate in body and distinct from the Creator. The Uncreated "Son of God" is both ever-existing and of the same essence and judgment. If the Father, Son and Spirit are all ever-existing and each member uncreated and in absolute agreement and essence, does that truly make it more than "One Deity"? FALSE PAGAN gods are CREATED!
Did one member of the Godhead suddenly decide to agree with the other member, or have they always and eternally been in absolute agreement?

John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may (be) one, EVEN AS{kathos} we are one:
Even as:according as
And as for us, Jesus prayed that "we" may one day Become One in Unity, Christ did not become One with His Father, He always was! Do you understand this my friend?

And BTW, meditation is Good especially in "the Word". However when one meditates on teachings that is founded on mans understanding and logic and not the Spiritual , then one becomes Indoctrinated with it and is hardened in their belief to the point as to where the truth is far from them. In false religions men and women meditate to come in communion with their false gods, in reality they invite their doctrines into them and a "spirit" of falsehood which at most times take control of their understanding.

Be not deceived, the more you meditate on false teachings, the deeper it will sink into your conscience. And the outcome is that the Truth will be beyond your reality!
!

Because these 3 persons are eternal, they must be the same God? As much as you despise logic, I would ask what kind of logic are you using here? Do you disdain only GOOD logic? What is wrong with the proposition that there could be 3 Gods who never had a beginning? What does eternality or non-eternality have to do with whether it takes more than one divine person to constitute a God?

Here's my definition of a "person" (let me know if you have a different definition) -

"a self-aware, morally and emotionally cognizant entity, possessing the level of intelligence of a human being or greater"

Now, take such a person and imagine that he is eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, etc. Now, imagine ANOTHER such person, equal to the first, but NOT THE SAME PERSON. How many Gods is that? Remember, both are DEITY, and they ARE NOT ONE ANOTHER. There is your "key" - as soon as you say they are not the same one you have more than one deity.

[Aineo]

Now if you want to, we can move on from the trinity and discuss Christ being Creator. I agree that Christ created. The Father spoke forth light and it was made. Christ, being the word of God, was spoken and light was made. The Father truly made all things by/through Christ (i.e His Word) As it said the Word (God/Creator) was made flesh. Not one God spoke forth light and another God went and created it. As far as the qoute from Prov. that is wisdom that is speaking. Is God's word not wisdom? Truly Christ is the image of the invisible God, because He made God manifest in the flesh.

We can start a thread dealing specifically with Jesus as creator.

However, before you start thinking about that subject you need to research how Gnosticism views wisdom and God's word. This concept is straight out of Greek Gnostic thinking that denies the diety of Jesus and elevates wisdom to the level of a demigod as personified in Sophia.

Also if you read my comment directed to Brad concerning "picking my posts to pieces", I was referring to taking comments totally out of context, which is no more than a cheap and ineffective debating tactic that is usually used by those with a weak or insupportable position.

[(Omega)]

Hello Brad!

How ironic you would choose a verse that absolutely describes the Father as the "One God", - not the Father AND Son. The preceeding passage declares there are "many lords and gods" (pagan) and then assigns the Father to the category of "God" and Christ to the category of "Lord", and doesn't even mention the Holy Spirit. This verse is perhaps THE most direct address of the Godhead issue in scripture, and the fact is, if you are as honest as you claim to be in searching for the truth, you will have to admit that a TRINITARIAN would NEVER have offered such a description as this.

Nothing ironic here my friend, just a lack of understanding on your part. If the Bible is not taken as a WHOLE, then it is like unto a jigsaw puzzle whereby pieces of the puzzle are missing and the Whole Picture is not seen. I often wonder if you see the whole picture?

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

Since in this verse Jesus claimed that He AND His Father are One, does this make two Gods?
What you still fail to realize as the natural man is the Union of the Son with the Father. So in the above passage, is Christ separate from the Father or is Christ the same person?, since He used both "AND" in addition to "ONE" Furthermore if there is but one Body of Christ and many members, does the exclusion of member names discard the fact that it still remains one Body as Christ as its head?

Because these 3 persons are eternal, they must be the same God? As much as you despise logic, I would ask what kind of logic are you using here? Do you disdain only GOOD logic? What is wrong with the proposition that there could be 3 Gods who never had a beginning? What does eternality or non-eternality have to do with whether it takes more than one divine person to constitute a God?
Here's my definition of a "person" (let me know if you have a different definition) -

"a self-aware, morally and emotionally cognizant entity, possessing the level of intelligence of a human being or greater"

Now, take such a person and imagine that he is eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, etc. Now, imagine ANOTHER such person, equal to the first, but NOT THE SAME PERSON. How many Gods is that? Remember, both are DEITY, and they ARE NOT ONE ANOTHER. There is your "key" - as soon as you say they are not the same one you have more than one deity.

Please explain to me what Good Logic is?
So-called Good and Reasonable Logic says that God cannot send a finite man who is only able to commit a finite amount of sins to an Eternal Punishment in the Lake of Fire, would a Loving God really do such an act? Why such an act would seem incomprehensible in the HUMAN MIND. Your limitations of God reveals the reason why you cannot attain the understanding of the Spiritual man. Created and Uncreated makes much difference, on earth, a self-aware, morally and emotionally cognizant entity can never be in Absolute Unity, Nature and Essence and agreement with ANOTHER as to where each distinct member of the Godhead does not decide to become One with another but have always been ONE in Essence, Nature and accordance. We are distinct in person, however we are not the same as in essence, unity, judgment and agreement. Understand this my friend, me trying to reason with you can only be difficult as you trying to reason with me, sounds about right doesn't it? Thanks for responding!

1 Corinthians 2:14 - But (the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God): for they are foolishness unto him: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned.

God Bless!

[Snipe]

Omega-

I don't know if you were referring to my post or Brad's, but I never said, nor do I believe that Christ was created.

Now, how true you are, if one meditates too much on the wrong things he can be misled. Yet also, if one is not willing to accept being wrong, he is already misled for God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (just commenting on that kind of person, not saying that it is you). Friend, if you talk to me about something, I will be as attentitive to you as I would to any minister, preacher, prophet, or evangelist of reputation, b/c to me they are no more than you and you them. Yet, this doctrine of trinity does not add up to scripture.

Now, I truly believe that there is only one God as scripture confirms, now for some one to tell me that three persons make one God. It would be contradictory for me to proclaim I believe in one God. You see, if God created all. He created all, not Christ created and not the Father. That separates the two.

As far as Christ and the Father being one. He is not talking about Him, one god, being a portion of God as a whole, but as you stated before it is a unity of purpose. Not Him being another god who is one with the Father, for the father is the only God. Christ was Him, that God manifested in the flesh (i.e the Word [God] made flesh.

Isaiah 40:3 - The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Yahweh/Jehovah, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

This is the testimony of John the Baptist, make straight the way for who, The Father (Yahweh/Jehovah) Now, unless we consider this prophecy wrong, it says that God (Father) is coming. There are other prophecies in which God promises to come Himself.

I pray that you will take heed to your own warnings about meditating on false doctrine, b/c sometimes we are guilty of the very things we see or think others are guillty of.

Aineo-

Whether or not my words align with portions of Greek Gnosticism or not, is not a concern of mine, nor what they believe. If I were to speak with one of them, I would listen to their concerns and what they had to say to me and give it thought, lest I become vain in my own understanding. There are certain things about Christ that I am praying about, for understanding. But one thing, you say they deny the deity of Christ, so that would make their beliefs not compatible with my own.

[(Omega)]

Hello to you Snipe!

Omega-

I don't know if you were referring to my post or Brad's, but I never said, nor do I believe that Christ was created.

Now, how true you are, if one meditates too much on the wrong things he can be misled. Yet also, if one is not willing to accept being wrong, he is already misled for God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (just commenting on that kind of person, not saying that it is you). Friend, if you talk to me about something, I will be as attentitive to you as I would to any minister, preacher, prophet, or evangelist of reputation, b/c to me they are no more than you and you them. Yet, this doctrine of trinity does not add up to scripture.

Now, I truly believe that there is only one God as scripture confirms, now for some one to tell me that three persons make one God. It would be contradictory for me to proclaim I believe in one God. You see, if God created all. He created all, not Christ created and not the Father. That separates the two.

As far as Christ and the Father being one. He is not talking about Him, one god, being a portion of God as a whole, but as you stated before it is a unity of purpose. Not Him being another god who is one with the Father, for the father is the only God. Christ was Him, that God manifested in the flesh (i.e the Word [God] made flesh.

Isaiah 40:3 - The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Yahweh/Jehovah, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

This is the testimony of John the Baptist, make straight the way for who, The Father (Yahweh/Jehovah) Now, unless we consider this prophecy wrong, it says that God (Father) is coming. There are other prophecies in which God promises to come Himself.

I pray that you will take heed to your own warnings about meditating on false doctrine, b/c sometimes we are guilty of the very things we see or think others are guillty of.

A little advice my friend, careful not to make assumptions. I never said that you believe that Jesus was created, I merely made a "distinction" between a created and uncreated being as in reference to Deity. You can give all the warnings you want my friend, however failure to realize ones own mistakes blocks their vision and obtaining wisdom. Sometimes we are guilty of the very things we see or think and I do agree and know FULL WELL this, however it is not how I see or think about you, it is what the Final Authority speaks and it speaks to you in clarity. I rebuke you as a friend and as to whether or not you fail to accept it is on you. Back to the subject at hand and not personal assumptions.

The Word was with God and the word was God.
with:{pros} at, near or by!

John 17:5 - And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with{pros}thee before the world was.
Now who was "with" God, was He with Himself and did Christ share the Glory with Himself?


This is to both you and Brad and I speak as one concerned.

And even if I were to explain this verse fully, you might very well fail to comprehend its full meaning. I have studied inside and out the interpretations of many Bible Scholars and the rebuttals given by other learned men in addition to the Holy Spirits revelation and guidance into all truth and complete obedience and submission to Gods Commandments.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, (of) whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, (by) whom are all things, and we by him.

There is obviously One God who is the Creator of all things ,God being called the Father here is not a distinction in contrast to the other persons of the Triune God or to exclude them from the Godhead, but in distinction in contrast to all creatures that were created by God, and wherbey whose constitution is attributed to each member of the Godhead which are found elsewhere in scripture, in order to understand the formation of the Godhead completely you must take each passage in scripture regarding the relation of the Son to the Father and Spirit and then understand that the Godhead is not appropriated to the Father alone. God the Father is the first member of the Godhead and Deity which all three members are to be fully understood.. God in scripture is at times attributed to as the Father via His eminency, because He is the source where the Deity of the other two flow out from, and the other members of the Godhead by having communication from him so that there is only one God the Father with the Son as God too, albeit not another God, are you understanding this so far? The Father with His Son and the Holy Spirit are The ONE GOD, however He is not without them neither is He(The Father) excluded from the other members of the Godhead. Furthermore as the above passage in scripture also states that there is to us but one Lord, an that He is the ONE Mediator between God and man who is none other than OUR LORD, even Jesus Christ. And as True Christians know, there is not more than one mediator, but that one mediator is Christ by whom all things were created and do consist of, He is the man Christ Jesus, however not an ordinary man but a man who is in personal union with the divine Word of God or as we call God the Son. And this extraordinary man have God made both Lord and Christ.

God Bless!

[Snipe]

Yes, I did assume and am not to proud to apologize for that, forgive me. It is good to hear that you have stopped sinning. I take it that by you saying complete obedience, you mean complete.

Don't take the warning personal, if you have. I am just hoping that you consider that you may be guilty of your own rhetoric. Friend, I understand, you feel as though you are correct and I also speak as one concerned. And as you said if one doesn't what is spoken, there is nothing else that person can do. So be at peace friend.

Love Always,
D

[(Omega)]

Hello my friend!

Don't take the warning personal, if you have. I am just hoping that you consider that you may be guilty of your own rhetoric. Friend, I understand, you feel as though you are correct and I also speak as one concerned. And as you said if one doesn't what is spoken, there is nothing else that person can do. So be at peace friend.

Love Always,
D

And ye shall (know the truth), and the truth shall make you free. - If (the Son) therefore shall make you free), ye shall be free indeed.(John 8:32.36)

I don't want to use the word guilty, however I will pray that you obtain a better understanding of the Godhead by revelation of the Holy Spirit and with diligent study of the Scriptures. I respect the humility you display on this forum, "One" of the keys to understanding God better is found within the four Gospels. Each author have different accounts because each person may not have had the same affection towards Jesus, even though they all "loved Him"

Come closer to God and He will come closer to you.
John 13:23 - Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. I believe that the Gospel of John reveals God better than the rest, perhaps because the other Disciples affection towards Jesus might not have been as fervent.

God Bless!

[Snipe]

Thank you for your prayers friend... I think you are correct with your comment about John, it does have a certain spiritual focus not present in the others.

[BradtheImpaler]

Nothing ironic here my friend, just a lack of understanding on your part. If the Bible is not taken as a WHOLE, then it is like unto a jigsaw puzzle whereby pieces of the puzzle are missing and the Whole Picture is not seen. I often wonder if you see the whole picture?

I think the "whole picture" here involves you bringing up specific verses and then, when it is shown the verse does not say what you need it to say, you appeal to generalities.

How can 1Cor.8:6 be merely a "piece of a puzzle" regarding this issue? Paul distinctly tells us there is only one God (which you claim to believe) Is that just a piece of the puzzle? No? Then WHO does he tell us the "one God" is here?

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.

Since in this verse Jesus claimed that He AND His Father are One, does this make two Gods?

There's only one God - "for us there is but one God" - who is that God?

What you still fail to realize as the natural man is the Union of the Son with the Father. So in the above passage, is Christ separate from the Father or is Christ the same person?

Seperate in "being" - "one" in ACCORD, very simple.

,

since He used both "AND" in addition to "ONE" Furthermore if there is but one Body of Christ and many members, does the exclusion of member names discard the fact that it still remains one Body as Christ as its head?

I don't understand the question - maybe you can restate it.

Please explain to me what Good Logic is?

Kind of hard to explain to someone who may not possess it...

So-called Good and Reasonable Logic says that God cannot send a finite man who is only able to commit a finite amount of sins to an Eternal Punishment in the Lake of Fire, would a Loving God really do such an act?

Of course not. Either there's no eternal (conscious) punishment, or, if there is, God is not really "loving" - THAT'S "good logic".

Why such an act would seem incomprehensible in the HUMAN MIND. Your limitations of God reveals the reason why you cannot attain the understanding of the Spiritual man.

Well if God is said to be "all loving" then I would have to "limit him" (expect from him) all-loving behaviour. Infinite punishment for finite sin is not all-loving behaviour. How I know that is I would even be more merciful than that, and I am NOT "all-loving".

Here's a thought -

What if Satan were in control instead? Do you think he could come up with a worse fate for the majority of mankind than INFINITE PUNISHMENT? I kinda think he'd come up with the same thing? (whoa - would that make Satan "all-loving"?)

Created and Uncreated makes much difference, on earth, a self-aware, morally and emotionally cognizant entity can never be in Absolute Unity, Nature and Essence and agreement with ANOTHER as to where each distinct member of the Godhead does not decide to become One with another but have always been ONE in Essence, Nature and accordance. We are distinct in person, however we are not the same as in essence, unity, judgment and agreement. Understand this my friend, me trying to reason with you can only be difficult as you trying to reason with me, sounds about right doesn't it? Thanks for responding![quote}

Oh but we (humans) do have the same nature (human nature) - what do you mean we are not the same "essence"?

1 Corinthians 2:14 - But (the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God): for they are foolishness unto him: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned.

You know, I have a feeling that a TRUELY "spiritual man" would not constantly claiming he was a spiritual man. Think about it...

[(Omega)]

Hello Brad!

I think the "whole picture" here involves you bringing up specific verses and then, when it is shown the verse does not say what you need it to say, you appeal to generalities.

How can 1Cor.8:6 be merely a "piece of a puzzle" regarding this issue? Paul distinctly tells us there is only one God (which you claim to believe) Is that just a piece of the puzzle? No? Then WHO does he tell us the "one God" is here?

This is exactly what I am referring to, case in point my friend! You take one verse stating that there is ONE GOD, Of course there is one God!
How many Scriptures point also to the Divinity and Deity of Christ???
Do you deny the Deity of Christ? Because if you do, then I would be glad in starting a new thread on it.

There's only one God - "for us there is but one God" - who is that God?

Search the Scriptures, how many times have I reiterated and made the distinctions between the Eternal members of Godhead and prove that they are One in Purpose and Unity? and How many Scriptures have I pointed that relate to the Deity of Christ?

Please explain to me what Good Logic is?

Kind of hard to explain to someone who may not possess it...

Brad you can be as condescending and as you like, nevertheless you are blinded by your arrogance. Once again it is amusing how you try and reason with Scriptures which can NEVER be understood my natural men such as yourselves.

Of course not. Either there's no eternal (conscious) punishment, or, if there is, God is not really "loving" - THAT'S "good logic".

Lets see what saith the Scriptures shall we:

• Romans 11:22 - Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
• Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting{owlam} life, and some to shame and everlasting{owlam} contempt.
• Mark 3:29 - But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal{aionios}damnation.
• Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting{aionios} punishment: but the righteous into life eternal{aionios}.

owlam: everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
aionios: without end, never to cease, everlasting

Now according to you punishment is not Eternal, if that is the case then neither is Eternal Life for Believers in Christ. If a long duration of time is used for punishment then it is also used for life, and if it is used to represent eternal life, then so it used to represent eternal damnation.
Furthermore since we worship and honor a God who will one day eternally torment the Devil and his angels, do you honestly believe that we are any different as creatures? The Devil, angels and man are both equally God's creatures!

Here's a thought -

What if Satan were in control instead? Do you think he could come up with a worse fate for the majority of mankind than INFINITE PUNISHMENT? I kinda think he'd come up with the same thing? (whoa - would that make Satan "all-loving"?)

Interesting how you compare the Devil and God and try and make distinctions between them. Who possesses Divine Judgment my friend, Satan or God? Trying to comprehend the infinite mind of God finite man? Are you going against Scriptures or do you submit to the Sovereignty of Almighty God? You’re a finite man trying to reason against a God whose mind is infinite!
Once again, what does the Scriptures state and what do you say? Re-defining words is common among cultic denominations my friend.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8,9

Oh but we (humans) do have the same nature (human nature) - what do you mean we are not the same "essence"?

Re-read my post!
We are not Eternal, we have never been the same in agreement, Christ did not BECOME one in Purpose and Agreement with His Father, He always was. Are you and me in One Purpose and Agreement?

You know, I have a feeling that a TRUELY "spiritual man" would not constantly claiming he was a spiritual man. Think about it...

I wonder why I keep stating such? Perhaps so that you can NOTICE the distinction between you and me, and how you continuously fail to understand the things of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - But (the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God): for they are foolishness unto him: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned.

God Bless!

[Snipe]

If I pray to the Father distinctly, am I praying to the Son too?

[(Omega)]

If I pray to the Father distinctly, am I praying to the Son too?

1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator (between) God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

[Snipe]

I'll take that as a yes... Thank you...

[(Omega)]

I'll take that as a yes... Thank you...

I never said yes or no, you assumed and assumption leads to confusion my friend. Re-read the quote! If Christ is between man and God, does that make Him the Father? If I am the mediator between you and the administrator, does that make me you or the administrator?

And your welcome my friend!

[Snipe]

That would make you a mediator. You wouldn't be me or the administrator. But I wasn't assuming...

So if I pray distinctly to the Father, am I praying to God?

[(Omega)]

Hello there Snipe!

That would make you a mediator. You wouldn't be me or the administrator. But I wasn't assuming...

You weren't?

I'll take that as a yes... Thank you...

Please show me when did I actually say yes?

So if I pray distinctly to the Father, am I praying to God?

Snipe, from one bother to another. How is it that you can pray to the Father without through the SON?

John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in (my name), he may give it you.

The Fathers Name or His(Christs)name?

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, (but by me)

No man cometh unto the Father but by the Father or by the Son(Christ)?

God Bless!

[Snipe]

No I cannot show you when you actually said yes, just as you cannot show me where I actually said you said yes. No assumption taken.

I am so glad you asked that beautiful question of how can I pray to the Father without through Christ?

I am really glad you did. Since I cannot speak freely with you. I guess I will have to qoute

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Luke 11:2

Christ says to pray, Our father (this prayer is distinctly addressed to the father) which art in heaven.

That is how. Now, according to trinity doctrine, Father, Son, and Ghost are three different persons yet one God.

If this is true, if I pray as Christ said to the Father, then I am praying to the Son and Ghost as well b/c I am praying to God and there is only one.

Now, if we say that I can pray to the Father or the Son without addressing all three, that would make them three gods, if all of them are God.

So there is no way to address any of them without addressing all, unless they are not all One God. Reason being, that if I pray to the Son, I am praying to God. If I pray to the Father, I am praying to God and if I pray to the spirit, I am praying to God.

If God does anything, then all three of them must be doing it together, or else, it is more than one God.

Trinity is false friend...

[(Omega)]

And Hello to you Snipe!
Do you even know what purposes, the Father, Son and Spirit serve in our prayers, and how they act in Unison?

Trinity is not false, you just have a poor understanding of Scriptures and have a knack of making your brothers in Christ feel unwanted, especially here on this forum.

Your responses further proves my point, it is amazing How God is striving to open your eyes and yet you stlil fail to see!

So when Christ said, "Our FATHER" Does "our" include Him or is He excluded

And when Christ said "Thy will" be done, did it exclude or include Him?

Whose will did Christ do? His or His Fathers?

• Luke 22:42 - Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
  
• John 5:30 - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
  
• John 6:38 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Now according to you, Jesus is just another manifestation of the Father Correct? Now since you fail to see the Beauty of the Unity of the Triune God and how each member of the Godhead have their own separate will which work in Unison for ONE PURPOSE, please explain to me how the Father is just another manifestation of the SON??? What is sad is that you claim to understand Love and Unity and yet fail to see the Unity and Beauty in three Eternal Persons as ONE.

God Bless!

[(Omega)]

Oh and BTW, how exactly does prayer work?

1)."OUR FATHER" which is in HEAVEN,

2).Romans 8:26 - Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit

3).1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; IN JESUS NAME, AMEN AND AMEN!

God Bless!

[Snipe]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this matter...

It's funny, but you did not respond to any of the rest of my post. I do consider if I am wrong friend and prayed about this last night. And what was given me, I have spoken. I am not trying to make anyone feel unwanted. That scripture was not it, but what I said concerning the trinity. That scripture was refering to how one prays to the Father.

It might be a good idea to consider that you may be the one who is lacking understanding friend. I don't say these things to make you feel unwanted, but for our own good. As what transpired with me and Aineo, I responded how I did in love and it was not accepted, so I walked away... Didn't Paul say now I go to the Gentiles after he was repeatedly not accepted. It is not wise to debate when a person is not interested in considering the words spoken by the other.

God bless you friend...

[(Omega)]

Quite the Contrary my friend,

I have presented all the evidence needed to refute your false teaching, you on the other hand have not responded with your refutation. I don't agree on a false teaching, I have studied scriptures my entire life and am a Bible teacher and have been schooled in the Scriptures, so if you wish in your mind to believe that your correct, then so be it. I do not only pray last night, I pray all the time and without ceasing, asking the LORD, to NEVER BE DECEIVED! When you become wiser, then you will understand where I am coming from. I am poofed in refuting those who will not submit to correction, especially when proof is presented clearly. There is too much time wasted here on this thread and it has gone NOWHERE. I have more important duties to attend to.

God Bless!

[Snipe]

Friend, you may have been schooled, but what does that mean? You may have studied your whole life and pray everyday, but what does that mean?

That you are seeking God?

It takes more than study and prayer, it takes a love for truth, a humble spirit, and an upright heart as well. Without love, there is no profit, without humility, there is no knowledge. God resists the proud, but shows grace to the humble. You speak of all of your works, as if they qualifty you for something...

Christ said to me in scripture, be not a respector of persons, for a piece of bread a man will transgress... truly so...

And beware of the leaven of the scribes and pharisees (religious leaders) for they are holy on the outside, but inside they are filthy.

Whether these things apply to you or not, you know, or rather the Spirit knows more than I. And I will not make a judgement on that... But one thing is sure, with men's training comes men's knowledge. But the world does not comprehend the things of God...

You be safe, good night friend, I have Spanish class in the morning...

[(Omega)]

Before you speak, take a look at your responses to your brethren on this forum and get off your high horse and remove the beam from your eye!

And beware of the leaven of the scribes and pharisees (religious leaders) for they are holy on the outside, but inside they are filthy.

I truly hope for your safety that what you quoted above was not in reference to me. You have no idea as to where I am from or how close to God I am, and if it is, then you had better repent!

[Snipe]

I said:

Whether these things apply to you or not, you know, or rather the Spirit knows more than I. And I will not make a judgement on that... But one thing is sure, with men's training comes men's knowledge. But the world does not comprehend the things of God...


As for your threats, your heart is starting to show it's color... It has been for some time... All I say is, honestly, consider yourself...

[(Omega)]

Hello Snipe!

My heart? The Spirit knows more than you? Clever how you leave out the rest of your post! Does the word IF mean anything to you my friend?
I can very well say the same, but unfortunately I will not. As for now I will let you be, I am not going to argue with you anymore.

I am not a perfect person, however if you are to continue in dissensions then so be it. If your going to let Satan overcome you and have you go against your brethren in Christ, then you lose. Don't let that happen my friend, ok?

Get some rest!

[BradtheImpaler]

Hello Brad!

I think the "whole picture" here involves you bringing up specific verses and then, when it is shown the verse does not say what you need it to say, you appeal to generalities.

How can 1Cor.8:6 be merely a "piece of a puzzle" regarding this issue? Paul distinctly tells us there is only one God (which you claim to believe) Is that just a piece of the puzzle? No? Then WHO does he tell us the "one God" is here?

This is exactly what I am referring to, case in point my friend! You take one verse...

YOU were the one who "took" (chose) the verse - I just pointed out that it doesn't teach a Trinity.

...stating that there is ONE GOD, Of course there is one God!

You are once again going in circles. It is obvious we BOTH believe the scriptures teach "there is only one God", but it is equally obvious that we do not agree on what is meant by "one" (and perhaps, even what is meant by "God"). We are like 2 men who speak different languages shouting at each other in an effort to communicate. It doesn't matter how many times or how loudly we repeat the same words/phrases to one another if we don't speak the same language.

So once again I attempt to break the issue down to it's most basic form,

and please don't -

a) answer by telling me I am a "natural man" and would not understand

or...

b) change the subject

Here we go...

When you say "of course there is only one God", do you mean "one", as in the NUMBER "one", or do you mean one as in a "UNITY" of more than one?

How many Scriptures point also to the Divinity and Deity of Christ???
Do you deny the Deity of Christ? Because if you do, then I would be glad in starting a new thread on it.

I'm sure you'd like to start a new thread - to avoid the inevitable conclusion of THIS thread. Perhaps you do it only subconsciously, but this is an attempt to broaden the discussion to obscure the specific point. We cannot argue the entire bible at once. At this point it's not my purpose to argue the deity of Christ or whether even the Father/Son/Spirit are "3 persons" who are all equally divine - the original point I'm attempting to stick to is whether the Trinity, as described (not "claimed") by Trinitarians, is any different from polytheism, since a polytheistic theology obviously also holds to multiple divine persons which are "members" of all the deity that they believe exists. In fact, that they believe in multiple divine personages is what MAKES it polytheism.

[Aineo]

What non-Trinitarians refuse to accept is that not all sound Biblical doctrines can be nailed down with just one verse. If soud Biblical doctrine could be nailed down with just one verse the Hebrews would not have rejected the suffering Messiah since this is discerned or revealed by rightly dividing and understanding the "word of truth".

[BradtheImpaler]

What non-Trinitarians refuse to accept is that not all sound Biblical doctrines can be nailed down with just one verse

This is an admission that the doctrine of the Trinity is DEDUCED (incorrectly, I believe, but deduced nonetheless) from scripture, not PLAINLY stated. Now how does that reconcile with your and Omega's position that the doctrine of the Trinity is "CLEARLY TAUGHT" in the NT? (I'm pretty sure one or both of you made that claim in previous posts?) To clearly TEACH something it must be clearly SPELLED OUT. It is ludicrous to imagine that what fundamental Christians believe is the most important doctrine in the bible (right up there with salvation by grace through faith), a doctrine whichout which one cannot be saved unless they believe, must be DEDUCED fom scripture.

If soud Biblical doctrine could be nailed down with just one verse the Hebrews would not have rejected the suffering Messiah since this is discerned or revealed by rightly dividing and understanding the "word of truth".

But the Trinity, if true, could very easily be "nailed down" with one verse - just any variation of the Trinitarian "mantra" which goes something like -

"Within the one being that is God, there exists eternally 3 coequal and eternal persons"

It wouldn't even have to EXPLAIN it, and you could still maintain your "incomprehensible mystery" - it would just have to SAY it.

Don't you find it the least bit suspicious that the CLOSEST single verse to approximating such a statement is 1Jn.5:7, which is SPURIOUS? A late interpolation by an overly zealous Trinitarian scribe?

You SHOULD

[Aineo]

Brad, once again you are playing word games and ignoring the balance of my post. Discerned and deduced are not synonymous. If you have notice my posts I don’t use the KJV so 1 John 1:7-8 in the Bibles that use the best manuscripts read:

1 John 5:7-8
7 And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. NAS

If you choose to ignore what is taught in the NT because you cannot find just one verse that teaches the Trinity that is your problem not mine just like the Hebrews refused to see the suffering Messiah in the OT is their problem not mine.

Wrangling over words and using logic and reasoning will usually end up with false conclusion based on a preconceived ideology that refuses to think outside a box that limits true understanding.

Like many concepts the concept of the Trinity is taught and understood by those with the desire to uncover and understand the "mysteries" of Scripture and closed to those who rely on human logic.

[BradtheImpaler]

Brad, once again you are playing word games and ignoring the balance of my post. Discerned and deduced are not synonymous. If you have notice my posts I don’t use the KJV so 1 John 1:7-8 in the Bibles that use the best manuscripts read:

1 John 5:7-8
7 And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. NAS

You fail to ascertain the obvious again - you shouldn't HAVE to deduce or discern a MAJOR DOCTRINE. Over 1200 pages of bible and not one verse that clearly expresses what you claim here is "clearly taught". There's something wrong there - wake up.

As far as 1Jn.5:7 - you once again don't get my point. A verse that many Trin's (not necessarily YOU) credit with being the clearest address of the Trinity was added to the text subsequently by a nameless scribe/scribes whose agenda was, among other things, TRINITARIAN. They didn't just copy the previous manuscripts, they ALTERED or even manufactured some verses to support what they already believed per their church affiliation. Read "The Orthodox Corruption Of Scripture" (Bart Ehrman) - the bible just didn't fall out of the sky. Get a little "street smart" and keep an open mind.

If you choose to ignore what is taught in the NT because you cannot find just one verse that teaches the Trinity that is your problem not mine just like the Hebrews refused to see the suffering Messiah in the OT is their problem not mine

Let's evaluate what you just said and hopefully you will realize how ridiculous you sound -

I choose to ignore what is taught in the NT because I CANNOT FIND ONE VERSE THAT TEACHES IT?????? Well, duh... I guess so!!!

Wrangling over words and using logic and reasoning will usually end up with false conclusion based on a preconceived ideology that refuses to think outside a box that limits true understanding

What should we use then? "Non - logic" and "lack of reasoning"? Don't you realize it is the Trinitarian who is using MASSIVE amounts of reasoning to arrive at the Trinity? How long did it take to formulate the Athanasian Creed after the NT was written? How much reasoning went into that? Answer: a LOT, albeit fradulent reasoning.

Like many concepts the concept of the Trinity is taught and understood by those with the desire to uncover and understand the "mysteries" of Scripture and closed to those who rely on human logic.

Again the appeal to esoteric knowledge. The "mysteries" you have supposedly uncovered are in contradiction to the plain teaching of the scripture such as 1Cor.8:6.

[(Omega)]

Hello Brad!

I think the "whole picture" here involves you bringing up specific verses and then, when it is shown the verse does not say what you need it to say, you appeal to generalities.
How can 1Cor.8:6 be merely a "piece of a puzzle" regarding this issue? Paul distinctly tells us there is only one God (which you claim to believe) Is that just a piece of the puzzle? No? Then WHO does he tell us the "one God" is here?

Once again Brad, there seems to be a failure of understanding of my words, let me explain myself in a way that you may be able to understand. Christ came not only to fulfill the legal intent of the Law but the Spiritual. Your misunderstanding my point Brad, it is not whether you or I take(choose) one verse and try and expand on it. What I am TRYING to explain to you is that, it is nearly impossible to develop a full understanding of the Godhead by pulling one verse. You must take into consideration each and every verse which defines the attributes and structure of the Godhead, accompany it by prayer and the mind set of the author. Theological studies in itself will not help you attain a better understanding of the Creator, Revelation of scriptures by living a life of purity will.

You are once again going in circles. It is obvious we BOTH believe the scriptures teach "there is only one God", but it is equally obvious that we do not agree on what is meant by "one" (and perhaps, even what is meant by "God"). We are like 2 men who speak different languages shouting at each other in an effort to communicate. It doesn't matter how many times or how loudly we repeat the same words/phrases to one another if we don't speak the same language.

So once again I attempt to break the issue down to it's most basic form,

and please don't -

a) answer by telling me I am a "natural man" and would not understand

or...

b) change the subject

Here we go...

When you say "of course there is only one God", do you mean "one", as in the NUMBER "one", or do you mean one as in a "UNITY" of more than one?

A man can study theology His entire life and may not reach the same level of understanding of the Godhead as one who reads the Bible alone. Furthermore I am not shouting at you just putting in emphasis what you spiritual eyes fail to see. Try and understand my language Brad. I know and understand your language, however I do not speak it. You may be able to speak my language, but not be able to comprehend it. Re-read my post my friend, I have expounded on the distinction between each member and how the remain one in purpose and unity. It is the Absolute Union between the members that you fail to understand.

I'm sure you'd like to start a new thread - to avoid the inevitable conclusion of THIS thread. Perhaps you do it only subconsciously, but this is an attempt to broaden the discussion to obscure the specific point. We cannot argue the entire bible at once. At this point it's not my purpose to argue the deity of Christ or whether even the Father/Son/Spirit are "3 persons" who are all equally divine - the original point I'm attempting to stick to is whether the Trinity, as described (not "claimed") by Trinitarians, is any different from polytheism, since a polytheistic theology obviously also holds to multiple divine persons which are "members" of all the deity that they believe exists. In fact, that they believe in multiple divine personages is what MAKES it polytheism.

Polytheism always concerns false deities and pagan gods. If you want to assign the Eternal Members of the Godhead to polytheism and disregard the fact there are false gods who try and imitate the eternal members of the Godhead, being created by demonic inspiration, then I wouldn't be the least surprised If you cannot discern between the God of Islam and the God of Christianity! Since both claim to be ALMIGHTY GOD Sub-conscious does not speak on my behalf, the Holy Spirit does!

God Bless!

[Aineo]

Brad, is Jesus the suffering Messiah of the OT? If you can say yes then find me one OT verse that so plainly states this fact that any reasonable Hebrew should accept Jesus Christ as the prophesied Messiah.

Acts 15:11
11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." NAS

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. NAS

2 Timothy 1:8-11
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me His prisoner; but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher. NAS

Here are portions of Scripture that plainly and unequivocally state we are save by grace plus nothing else, yet how many cults and mainline denominations have added baptism and other prerequisites to salvation? Even when a Biblical truth is found in just one verse there are those who will argue that Paul is wrong and that other factors must be added for anyone’s salvation to be valid.

I will give you a couple of other examples and they are justification and sanctification. How are we justified and sanctified?

If I was to use your reasoning then all anyone would need is one book written by one man that lists all we need to know concerning God and His truth. The fact the Holy Spirit inspired 66 books not just one demonstrates that God has been revealed to mankind through discernment and study not point blank statements that are plainly stated in any one Biblical book.

[BradtheImpaler]

Hello Brad!

I think the "whole picture" here involves you bringing up specific verses and then, when it is shown the verse does not say what you need it to say, you appeal to generalities.
How can 1Cor.8:6 be merely a "piece of a puzzle" regarding this issue? Paul distinctly tells us there is only one God (which you claim to believe) Is that just a piece of the puzzle? No? Then WHO does he tell us the "one God" is here?

Once again Brad, there seems to be a failure of understanding of my words, let me explain myself in a way that you may be able to understand. Christ came not only to fulfill the legal intent of the Law but the Spiritual. Your misunderstanding my point Brad, it is not whether you or I take(choose) one verse and try and expand on it. What I am TRYING to explain to you is that, it is nearly impossible to develop a full understanding of the Godhead by pulling one verse. You must take into consideration each and every verse which defines the attributes and structure of the Godhead, accompany it by prayer and the mind set of the author.

You attempt to draw the whole discussion into such a vague and subjective realm that no one can prove ANYTHING. Your tactic here should be obvious to everyone.

Theological studies in itself will not help you attain a better understanding of the Creator, Revelation of scriptures by living a life of purity will.

The insinuation that if I somehow attain to the level of spirituality like yourself, I will somehow understand that the scriptures teach that God is one yet 3/ 3 yet one, and that there is no contradiction therein? Too late - I USED to believe that, UNTIL I prayed more and studied more.

BTW - I'm doing my best not to try and evaluate you personally in this discussion, but it's getting increasingly hard not to believe that you are obsessed with a delusion of being some sort of "spiritual master", or whatever the Christian equivalent is. Your opinion of yourself reeks of arrogance, and, in case you don't realize it, that's the OPPOSITE of "spirituality".

A man can study theology His entire life and may not reach the same level of understanding of the Godhead as one who reads the Bible alone. Furthermore I am not shouting at you just putting in emphasis what you spiritual eyes fail to see. Try and understand my language Brad. I know and understand your language, however I do not speak it. You may be able to speak my language, but not be able to comprehend it. Re-read my post my friend, I have expounded on the distinction between each member and how the remain one in purpose and unity. It is the Absolute Union between the members that you fail to understand.

Ha! Now you would have us believe that you have arrived at this great revelation BY YOURSELF? Nonsense - you got it from Trinitarian authors/speakers... you read a book and heard some sermons. Nothing you have offered here is a revelation of yours, I've heard it ALL before.

Polytheism always concerns false deities and pagan gods. If you want to assign the Eternal Members of the Godhead to polytheism and disregard the fact there are false gods who try and imitate the eternal members of the Godhead, being created by demonic inspiration, then I wouldn't be the least surprised If you cannot discern between the God of Islam and the God of Christianity! Since both claim to be ALMIGHTY GOD Sub-conscious does not speak on my behalf, the Holy Spirit does!!

It is easy to discern between the God of Islam and the God of (Trinitarian) Christianity - one is monotheistic theology and one isn't. Allah, to the Moslems, is ONE person - the Trinity is 3 persons. "Mono" means one, "Poly" means MORE than one. Which qualifies as which?

Your point about pagan gods not really existing is irrelevant. The Trinity is polytheistic in CONCEPT, (whether it is true or not) as the belief in the gods of Mt. Olympus (whether true or not) is polytheism, in concept.

Here's why...

They are both comprised of MULTIPLE DIVINE PERSONS. It doesn't matter if these are thought to be eternal or not, or whether they are of the same essence or not, or in any kind of unity or not, EACH ONE IS NOT THE OTHER. That's the bottom line, that's what makes more than one God.

[(Omega)]

Hello Brad!

I think the "whole picture" here involves you bringing up specific verses and then, when it is shown the verse does not say what you need it to say, you appeal to generalities.
How can 1Cor.8:6 be merely a "piece of a puzzle" regarding this issue? Paul distinctly tells us there is only one God (which you claim to believe) Is that just a piece of the puzzle? No? Then WHO does he tell us the "one God" is here?

Does the thought ever occur to you that when Paul refers to God as being one that he is speaking from your viewpoint or ours? When Paul speaks of One God, does He specifically state the God is One in Number or in Unity?

You attempt to draw the whole discussion into such a vague and subjective realm that no one can prove ANYTHING. Your tactic here should be obvious to everyone.

What Tactic? Pointing to one verse is a poor tactic on your behalf, obviously! I can break it down with Scriptures that can both Prove the Deity of Christ and His distinction from the Father

The insinuation that if I somehow attain to the level of spirituality llike yourself, I will somehow understand that the scriptures teach that God is one yet 3/ 3 yet one, and that there is no contradiction therein? Too late - I USED to believe that, UNTIL I prayed more and studied more.

BTW - I'm doing my best not to try and evaluate you personally in this discussion, but it's getting increasingly hard not to believe that you are obsessed with a delusion of being some sort of "spiritual master", or whatever the Christian equivalent is. Your opinion of yourself reeks of arrogance, and, in case you don't realize it, that's the OPPOSITE of "spirituality".

First of all I never claimed to be a spiritual master, your vain attempts at personifying me are both judgmental and rash. Before you call me arrogant, take a look at your responses and how you express superiority in knowledge such as duh! Because I explained how one develops a better understanding of the Godhead makes me arrogant? Furthermore your not much of a welcomer as far as I have seen in your responses. So much for affability! I believe that taking one verse and disregarding the rest is considered arrogant.

Ha! Now you would have us believe that you have arrived at this great revelation BY YOURSELF? Nonsense - you got it from Trinitarian authors/speakers... you read a book and heard some sermons. Nothing you have offered here is a revelation of yours, I've heard it ALL before.

Geez, when did I proclaim that it was a self-revelation? Quit putting your condescending words in my mouth brad! I got it from trinitarian authors and sermons? I read an research commentary, and I do not draw conclusion based on that alone. I read and study scriptures in conjunction with bible schooling. I have heard all your arguments before also my friend!

It is easy to discern between tha God of Islam and the God of (Trinitarian) Christianity - one is monotheistic theology and one isn't. Allah, to the Moslems, is ONE person - the Trinity is 3 persons. "Mono" means one, "Poly" means MORE than one. Which qualifies as which?

Your point about pagan gods not really existing is irrelevant to the point. The Trinity is polytheistic in CONCEPT, (whether it is true or not) as the belief in the gods of Mt. Olympus is polytheism, in concept.

Here's why...

They are both comprised of MULTIPLE DIVINE PERSONS.

UNCREATED, all other pagan and made up gods ARE NOT!!!

God Bless!

[BradtheImpaler]

Brad, is Jesus the suffering Messiah of the OT? If you can say yes then find me one OT verse that so plainly states this fact that any reasonable Hebrew should accept Jesus Christ as the prophesied Messiah.

Are you saying there is none?

Acts 15:11
11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are." NAS

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. NAS

2 Timothy 1:8-11
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, or of me His prisoner; but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher. NAS

Here are portions of Scripture that plainly and unequivocally state we are save by grace plus nothing else, yet how many cults and mainline denominations have added baptism and other prerequisites to salvation? Even when a Biblical truth is found in just one verse there are those who will argue that Paul is wrong and that other factors must be added for anyone’s salvation to be valid.

I will give you a couple of other examples and they are justification and sanctification. How are we justified and sanctified?

If I was to use your reasoning then all anyone would need is one book written by one man that lists all we need to know concerning God and His truth. The fact the Holy Spirit inspired 66 books not just one demonstrates that God has been revealed to mankind through discernment and study not point blank statements that are plainly stated in any one Biblical book.

You are really caught up in a "revolving door" here. You're arguing against using specific verses to establish a truth, yet you QUOTE SPECIFIC VERSES to establish salvation by grace alone in your example??????

Now I'm at the point of wondering if this is all just a "put on" on your part? Are you really serious, or are you a non-Trinitarian posing as a Trinitarian to make them (Trinitarians) look foolish? I'm not trying to be insulting, but can anyone blame me for wondering how anyone would seriously say what you did in your other post - that I choose to ignore what is taught in scripture because I can't find even one verse that teaches it?

That is CLASSIC

[Snipe]

Brad-

Surely, there are many Hebrews who have accepted Him...

Can I ask you somethings?

What do you think ever happened to people depending on God for truth? Why do they focus so much on what men will teach them in seminars? Does these no longer apply?

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ephesians 4:21 - If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

1 John 2:27 - But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Why would a man have pride or think it an accomplishment that they study under men? Is not the Spirit greater?

What do you think people will say to God when He asks them, why didn't you obey me?

Do you think they will say, Jesus obeyed you for me?

Do you think it is easy for someone to learn that something they believed their whole life is wrong and for Christ's sake, have to drop those familiar nets?

Can a person unwilling to see truth be able to make this choice?

And one more if I may,

Can a person honor God without obeying Him?

This is not an attempt for a debate, just was curious as to your thoughts on these issues, if you have the time...

[(Omega)]

Hello Brad!

Anyone can claim that the Holy Spirit reveals the Truth to them and so can another who claims to have the Holy Spirits teach a doctrine which is Contrary to the other persons belief, so who is correct? One can remain deceived because they refuse to hear the Truth of what the Scriptures plainly teach, rejecting the God inspired Truth found in scriptures alone.

Let the Word of God speak for itself, the question to all who claim to possess the Truth, let the Scriptures which are inspired by the Holy Spirit be the judge and no man. Let no man deceive you! The Question is, is that person willing to open their ears and hearts to it? That is why I will start from scratch to prove the theology of the Godhead as it is clearly explained away in SCRIPTURES, given by the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of TRUTH! Can the Scriptures itself be wrong?

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by (inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

God Bless!

[hisway]

You attempt to draw the whole discussion into such a vague and subjective realm that no one can prove ANYTHING. Your tactic here should be obvious to everyone.

His tactic is obvious to me and has been for some time.