Speed of Light

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Jovaro
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Speed of Light

Postby Jovaro » Mon Nov 29, 2004 08:25 am

Jovaro & tuppence wrote:I do not understand your problems tuppence. I present you with facts and instead for showing proof that my facts are wrong you say:
tuppence wrote:
go, jovaro, and learn....with my blessings....


Lets try it again.

Fact: The speed of light has always been constant.
Argument a: For this argument I would like to quote tuppence from here
tuppence wrote:
So, in a funny way, the speed of light has never slowed (although its speed between virtual particles is incredibly faster than we actually measure the speed of light as being), but through time it has required longer and longer to reach its destination due to the increasing number of virtual particles in existence at any one time -- and they are a result of the increase in the Zero Point Energy in space.

But that is not really what this fact is about, so therefore: the next argument:
Argument b: The data that indicates that the measured value of c has been higher in the past is questionable in more than one way. The first thing that should be questioned is the precision. The further we go in the past, the more the values differ from the expected value of c and the lower the precision of the value is. The second thing to question is the definition of the second. Take a look at Wiki and you see that before 1956 the second was defined as 1/86.400 of a mean solar day. By taking a look at Setterfields report we see that the measured decreasing of c almost comes to a complete halt at 1957. What a coincidence....
Especially if we see the data from the IERS that shows that the earths rotation around its axis is not constant but seems to decrease in speed.

Lets see if we can get a usefull response this time.
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Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:11 pm Post subject:

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Jovaro, it doesn't seem to matter how many times something is explained to you, you don't get it, so I have given up and encourage you go please, please go learn.

One note, however, if the simple fact the error margins were larger in the past explains the speed of light data, then WHY are ALL the measurements, regardless of error margins, showing a downward trend toward what the speed of light is now? If the speed of light has always been constant as per time between emission and final absorption, then we would expect the measurements to be on both sides of that speed, but they are not.

The statistical verification for the changing speed of light measurements can be found here:
http://www.setterfield.org/data.htm

And, one more time, the LENGTH of a second or a day has NOTHING to do with our calendar system! It is the time it takes the moon to go around the earth and the earth to go around the sun which are the key things. The FACT that the earth turns on its axis is what makes day and night. The length of a day and night even changes with the seasons! So that is not an issue, let alone the length of an hour or a second!
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Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 03:29 pm Post subject:

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Are you refusing to understand what I am saying or what?

The time it takes for the sun to go from the highest point on its orbit (as seen on earth) to the highest point of its next orbit is marked as 24 hours. Until 1956 the 1/86400 part of this timespan was marked as a second.

We now know that what was marked as 24 hours until 1956 was not always exactly 24 hours due to differences in the rotationalspeed of the earth around its axis.

The tendency even seems to be that days are getting longer and that they were shorter in the past. This tendency can be shown true for about 30 years I guess with the by you so holy data.

Shorter days in the past and thus shorter seconds in the past are a perfect explenation for higher measured values for c in that same past.

Do you understand now?

If not feel free to ask, and will try to make it even clearer.

When you claim that the lenght of a second was not based on the lenght of a day in the past, then I have to tell you that you are wrong. Look at the Wiki encyclopedia or Google and you will see that I am correct.
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Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 04:49 pm Post subject:

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1. The speed of light has been measured a number of ways having nothing at all to do with the length of a second or day. It has been measured using eclipse times of Jupiter's moons in the early days, it has been measured with rotating mirrors, toothed combs, and combinations and variations of these. It does not rely on the length of a second or day.

2. The fact that the earth's rotates on its axis (not around it) is what causes day and night, regardless of the length of either the day or the night!

3. This rotation has nothing to do with measuring the speed of light.

4. All of which is why I urge you to go and learn what you are talking about before you start talking.

And all of which is off topic for this forum, so I will edit out any further posts you make on this forum regarding the speed of light.

The topic is the length of the Genesis day. It was, to accomodate you, between 23 and 25 hours long.
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Point 1 is the biggest nonsense possible off course. Every speed is notated as x m/s. The s standing for seconds. Every speed has to do with the lenght of a second....

Point 2 is true, but I don't know what this has to do with the topic. At noon the sun reaches its highest point in the sky. The time it took between two of these highest points for the sun, was called 24 hours, untill 1956.
There is now data that shows that these 24 hours are not always exactly 24 hours. There are indications even, that suggests that days and thus seconds were shorter in the past.
This could be a perfect explenation for the higher measured values of c in the past.

In point 1 and 2 you can read that point 3 is incorrect untill 1956.

I won't even bother to answer point 4 if I am never going to get a sane answer.
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Postby tuppence » Mon Nov 29, 2004 04:03 pm

I'm going to cut and paste a few sections from the chapter on the history of research of the speed of light, from our book which is not yet quite ready to go to the publisher's. I hope this will help. From here on, everything is cut and paste:

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Galileo devised an experiment using lights, shutters, and telescopes to be set up on hills a number of miles apart. The Academia del Cimento of Florence set up Galileo’s experiment using a distance of about a mile. The conclusion they reached was that the speed of light was infinite.

...More was needed. Ole Roemer, born in Denmark on September 25, 1644, had begun studies in mathematics and astronomy at Copenhagen University in 1662. Ten years later, in 1672, he was appointed to the newly constructed observatory in Paris. In 1675, he discovered that the epicycloid was the best shape for teeth in gears and communicated to Huygens that such gears would be advisable in his clocks. This resulted in an improvement so significant that clocks of this caliber made the determination of longitude possible.

With such accurate clocks and the knowledge that Jupiter’s moons eclipsed regularly, it was now be theoretically possible to measure the speed of light, and determine whether or not this speed was really infinite. The eclipses provided a regular astronomical phenomenon that was visible from both a standard observatory and the place whose longitude was to be determined. The Paris Observatory was chosen as the standard.

....During the course of these observations, Roemer noticed something: as the earth drew away from Jupiter, the eclipse times of Io fell further and further behind schedule. However, once the furthest point in our orbit was passed, and the earth began to approach Jupiter, the eclipse times began to catch up again. How could the position of the earth in its orbit affect the time it took Io to go around Jupiter once and be eclipsed? It didn’t, said Roemer. What is happening is that the light carrying the information from the Jupiter-Io system is taking time to travel across the diameter of the earth’s orbit, so the eclipse information takes longer to get to the earth when it is at the furthest point in its orbit.

...It might be expected that with the above information Roemer would pronounce a definitive value for the speed of light (or “c”), but this was not his main purpose. His prime concern was to demonstrate that light was not transmitted instantaneously, but had instead a definite velocity, as evidenced by the observations. In this he eventually succeeded. The main factor that was unknown to Roemer, and that prevented accurate calculation of the speed of light was the radius of the earth’s orbit. Without that knowledge it was impossible to know exactly how far the light had traveled and thus also impossible to determine its speed. Today we know the radius of the earth’s orbit to be 1.4959787 x 108 Km, a value that is adopted in all the following calculations.

[note from tuppence -- even with these earliest observations, the length of a day or hour or minute on earth was not relevant.]

...James Bradley was born in 1693, and educated at Balliol College, Oxford. His astronomical instructor was one of the finest of that period in England, his uncle, the Rev. James Pound. In 1717, Edmond Halley ushered him into the scientific world and by 1721 Bradley had been appointed to the Savilian chair of astronomy at Oxford. He also lectured in experimental philosophy from 1729 until 1760. Upon the death of Halley in 1742, Bradley succeeded to his position as Astronomer Royal.

...Since the motion of the earth in its orbit is essentially constant, Bradley knew that this same relationship could be applied to the figures tumbling through his excited mind, provided he used the appropriate units. The aberration angle, K, he had measure from the stars. If the speed of light was c, equivalent to the rain speed, then as written above Kc = constant. On the accepted figures today the result is Kc = 6,144,402 where K is in arc-seconds and c in kilometers per second. Bradley concluded “that Light moves, or is propagated as far as from the Sun to the Earth in 8 minutes, 12 seconds.” Bradley had confirmed not only the Copernican model for the solar system, but also the hotly debated idea of a finite value for c. His discovery was announced on the first of January, 1729.

...The 63 aberration determinations from 1740 – 1930 listed in Table 4 were made with basically the same type of equipment with essentially the same error margins and substantially the same observational methods. The results from Pulkova Observatory are illustrated in Figure I. A least squares linear fit to all data gives a decay of 5.04 Km/s per year with a confidence of 96.1% that c has not been constant at 299,792.458 Km/s for the period covered by these Bradley-type determinations. These results suggest that the possibility of a decay in c should be examined further.

...The two methods of measuring the velocity of light, c, that have been considered to date have both been astronomical. However, back in 1638, in his ‘Discorsi’, Galileo suggested the basis of a terrestrial experiment over a number of miles using lanterns, shutters and telescopes to timed flashes of light. The Florentine Academy in 1667 tried the idea over a distance of one mile without any observable delay. Just nine years later the reason became apparent: Roemer’s value for c was so great in comparison to human reaction times in operating the lantern shutters that there was no hope of observing the finite travel time delay for c over one mile (or 1609.344 meters).

It was not until 1849 that the French physicist H. L. Fizeau overcame the problem in the following fashion. In the first place it was desirable to have as large a distance as practical involved, instead of just one mile. Fizeau used as his base-line the distance between two hills near Paris, Suresnes and Montmartre, measured as 8633 meters. As he had arrange to observe the returning beam of light, the total distance traveled was thus 17,266 meters. Though this distance was large in comparison with the single mile used with lanterns, it was the second shortest base-line ever used in this type of experiment.

In place of the shutters on lanterns, Fizeau used a rotating wheel with 720 teeth and driven by clockwork made by Froment. Light from an intense source was focused on the rim of the wheel, then made into a parallel beam by a telescope, and traversed the 8633 meters. There it was received by another telescope which focused the beam onto a concave mirror, sending the light back along the same path that it had just traveled. The returned beam was viewed between the teeth in the wheel. The system was focused with the wheel at rest and with the light shining between the gap in the teeth. The wheel was then rotated, automatically chopping the beam into a series of flashes like the lantern shutters.

...In 1874, the Council of the Paris Observatoire, headed by LeVerrier, who was the Observatory Director, and Fizeau, decided to ask Cornu to obtain a definitive value for c. The date was April 2, and the reason was that a transit of Venus was to occur on December 9th of that year. A value for c accurate to one part in a thousand would be needed by astronomers observing the event. Cornu complied with the request.

The sending telescope was mounted on the Paris Observatory and the light flashes sent to the tower of Montlhery where the collimator lens returned the chopped beam. The base-line was 22,910 meters. Four smoked aluminum wheels of 1/10 to 1/15 mm thickness were used. Three had pointed teeth numbering 144, 150, and 200 respectively. The fourth wheel of 40 mm diameter has 180 square teeth. The wheels could be rotated in either direction, which eliminated a number of errors.

The apparatus was powered by a weight-driven, friction-brake controlled device. An electric circuit automatically left a record of wheel rotation rtes on a chronograph sheet advancing 1.85 cm/s. A 1/20 second oscillator was used to subdivide the one second intervals of the observatory clock. Times were estimated to 0.001 second were claimed. The main difficulty in observation was the determination of the exact moment of total eclipse of the returned flash as the background is always slightly luminous. The speed of the wheel corresponding to the disappearance of the beam was noted, as was the speed for its re-appearance and a mathematical averaging procedure was adopted.

... Conclusions from Toothed-Wheel Experiments

Table 5 summarizes the above results by listing the fourteen values obtained by this method. A least squares linear fit to all these data points gives a light speed decline of 164 Km/s per year, while a fit to the most reliable valued, marked [*], gives a decline of 2.17 Km/s per year.

...In 1834, at 32 years of age, Sir Charles Wheatstone of England (1802-1875), after whom the electrical circuitry known as the Wheatstone Bridge is named, entered the discussion on the speed of light. He was the first to suggest the method that incorporated a rotating mirror for the measurement of c. Unfortunately for the history of England in the debate about the value for c, Sir Charles’ suggestion was not taken up by his countrymen. Instead, the French again led the way in pioneer experimentation, following which the lead came under American control.

Sir Charles’ suggestion regarding the rotating mirror was picked up four years later, in 1838, by the noted Parisian astronomer and physicist D.F.J. Arago (1786-1853). (Arago is mainly remembered today for his work on the interference of polarized light, which he investigated in 1811, and electromagnetism in which he worked with Ampere (1775-1836).) He also conducted experiments confirming diffraction that resulted from Resnel’s development of the wave theory of light.

...Foucault’s Rotating Mirror

...Later experimenters overcame ... problems in another way that allowed for a much longer light-path and a vastly increased distance EE’ between images. In Michelson’s work, the lens, L, was of much longer focal length and such that R and M were virtually conjugate foci of L. The source, S, was placed close to R, and with L of appropriate focus, the concave mirror, M, could be placed several miles away. When viewed through the micrometer eyepiece, there is the direct reflection from the revolving mirror and beside it the returned image at a distance dependant upon the rotation rate. For Foucault’s arrangement, the mirror reflected the light back to the eyepiece once every revolution, giving a flickering effect until a high enough rotation rte was achieved. Newcomb and Michelson used mirrors of four or more reflecting faces which also gave a brighter image.

...Newcomb’s Experiments

Newcomb utilized a square steel prism as his rotating mirror, which was 85 mm. long and 37.5 m. square. All four faces were nickel-plated and polished. The prism was rotated about its long axis inside a metal housing that had two open windows opposite each other. Rotation of the prism was effected by a stream of air directed through the windows against the 12 vanes in each of the two fan wheels rigidly attached to either end of the prism. It seems from Newcomb’s Figure 5 of Plate VI that four of the vanes were pointing in the direction of the corners of the prism on the lower wheel. However, the prism corners were midway between vanes for the upper wheel. Dorsey suggested that wheels of 13 vanes may have been better for symmetry and to overcome any potential problems caused by its absence.

A stiff frame carrying the observing telescope swung about an axis coincident with that of the rotating prism. At its other end were a pair of microscopes for reading the deflection. The radius of the arc over which it swung was 2.4 meters. The sending telescope was placed immediately above the observing ‘scope and had as its light source an adjustable slit illuminated by sunlight reflected from the heliostat. Light from the slit was directed to the upper half of one of the rotating prism’s faces. Following its return from the distant concave mirror, the light beam was reflected from the lower half of the same face into the observing telescope.

...All told, there were three distinct series of experiments. Michelson assisted Newcomb for part of the first series from June 28 until September 13, 1880. The series continued until April 15, 1881, by which time 150 experiments had been performed. Of these, Michelson had been involved with 99. The second series went from August 8, 1881, until September 24, with 39 experiments performed. The third series, in which Newcomb was assisted by Holcombe, extended from July 24, 1882, to September 5 of that year for a total of 66 experiments. This made a grand total of 255 experiments.

...Albert A. Michelson was an American physicist born in 1852. Prior to his death in 1931, he had been Professor of Physics at the University of Chicago where many famous experiments on the interference of light were done. He had been an instructor in physics and chemistry at the U.S. Naval Academy after he had graduated in 1873. His Superintendent questioned his “useless experiments” on light that were done while he was there. He continued his light velocity experiments during his ten years at the Case Institute of Technology, and his work was rewarded in 1907 with the Nobel Prize.

...After moving to the Case Institute, Michelson was prompted by Newcomb to continue his investigation into the value of c. This was carried out in 1882, essentially concurrent with Newcomb’s final series. Michelson used virtually the same equipment as that in his second series. The same micrometer, the same rotating mirror, lens, and air drive were used both times. The general optical arrangements were the same. The main differences were the path length of 624.546 meters (the old one was 605.4 meters) and the distant fixed mirror was slightly concave and fifteen inches in diameter compared with seven inches for the old. The same tape was used for measuring as was the previous calibration of the micrometer screw. The new cross-checks and comparisons indicated that all was satisfactory, even for Dorsey.

...With essentially the same equipment, therefore, Michelson obtained 299,802 Km/s for his results in 1925.6, and 299,798 Km/s for his results in 1926.5. This was the second time that two series by Michelson have shown a lower value for c on the second occasion with the same equipment. However, that is not all. Comparison between those two sets of series also shows a drop with time. In other words, four determinations, in two sets of two, show a consistent drop with time through the four, within each of the two related sets, and between the two sets. As noted previously, Michelson’s results alone indicate, on a least squares analysis, a decay of 1.86 Km/s per year over the 47 years of his c experimentation. These last two series suggest about 2 Km/s per year for the decay rate.

...Dorsey (p. 79) noted for Michelson’s work that “Although each series of determinations has yielded a value that differs from each of the others, Michelson has made no attempt in his reports, or elsewhere, so far as I know, to account for these differences.” This statement still holds even if Dorsey’s modified values for Michelson’s work are used. With a persistent drop in values for c by a single experimenter, as well as for all values by any particular method, one would imagine that the simplest explanation that Michelson or Dorsey could offer is that the physical quantity itself is dropping with time. De Brey suggested this, but Dorsey preferred to have his problem unsolved rather than accept that explanation.

...Because of the increasing accuracy and necessity for precise vacuum correction, Michelson decided tin 1929 to initiate what was to be his last final experiment. His collaborators were Pease and Pearson. The idea was that a one mile long pipe would be exhausted of its air and by repeated reflections from mirrors at either end a path length of some ten miles could be achieved in a fair vacuum. Pressure in the pipe varied from 0.5 to 5.5 millimeters of mercury. The arrangement was essentially that shown in Figure V. A carbon arc source was at S focused on an adjustable slit 0.075 mm wide and was reflected from a 32-faced rotating mirror, R. The mirror was a glass prism 0.25 inches long and 1.5 inches along the diagonals of its cross-section. All its angles were correct to one arc second and its surfaces to 0.1 wave.

Light was reflected from the upper half of face ‘a’ of the mirror through a glass window, W, that was 2 cm. thick, into the pipe and via the mirrors Q and N, onto the large optically flat mirrors M and p, 55.9 cm. in diameter. N was essentially a concave mirror 101.6 cm in diameter and of 15.02 m. focus that gave a parallel beam forming and image of the slit on M. After repeated reflections from M and P, the beam was returned through the window to strike the lower half of face ‘b’ of the rotating mirror, if it were at rest, and into the eye of the observer E. The distance from the rotating mirror to the eyepiece micrometer was 30 cm. In operation, the mirror was rotated at such a speed that face ‘a’ would move into the position occupied by face ‘b’ in the time that the light took to be reflected along the pipe and return. Depending on the adjustment of the four fixed mirrors, light could travel eight or ten miles before being returned to R.

The two distances required different rotation rates of the prism. For a distance of 7,999.87 meters, the rotation rate was about 585 revolutions per second, while 6,405.59 meters required about 730 revolutions per second. This rotation rate was again controlled and determined stroboscopically with a tuning fork compared with a free pendulum swinging in a heavy bronze box of constant temperature and low pressure. The pendulum was itself compared with a time-piece that was checked against time signals from Arlington, Virginia.

...Michelson made preparation for this c determination from 1929 until February 19, 1931, when the experiments actually began. The work was sponsored by the University of Chicago, the Mount Wilson Observatory, the Carnegie Corporation and the Rockefeller Foundation.

...Conclusions From Rotating Mirrors

The results of the rotating mirror experiments are summarized in Table 6. If the results rejected by the experimenters themselves are omitted along with Fourcault’s admittedly pioneer experiment which was “intended to ascertain the possibilities of the method,” then a least squares linear fit to the six data points gives a decay of 1.85 Km/s per year. The value of the correlation coefficient, r, equals -0.932, with a confidence interval of 99.6% in this decay correlation.

...The persistent downward trend in the measured value of c was noted by de Bray after Michelson’s 1924 series results became available. As a result, he wrote to the Editor of Nature on the 20th December, 1924, and to l’Astronomie in France on January 23rd, 1925, calling attention to the trend. In the latter case, he predicted a lower value for Michelson’s next determination, which was in the process of being prepared. In the event his prediction was justified. As a result of that circumstance, the Editor of Nature, having ignored his earlier calls, decided to publish de Bray’s next offering, which opened up the discussion in the scientific literature throughout the late twenties, the thirties and into the early forties. Again, as de Bray himself noted, the only values that go against this trend in Table 6 are those that the experimenters themselves have rejected. If the polygonal mirror technique is counted separately, there are now five methods that have demonstrated a decay in the speed of light over time.

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THAT, Jovaro, gives you a very brief indication of how the speed of light has been measured in the past. I hope you can now see why the argument you have been raising about leap seconds, etc., has no bearing on this at all.
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Postby Jovaro » Mon Nov 29, 2004 04:54 pm

How can you possibly say that speed has nothing to do with the lenght of a second???

Lets make this easier to understand. Sunsecond stands for a second in solartime. Atomicsecond stands for a second in atomic time.

Untill 1956 a sunsecond was the 1/86400 part of a sun-day. A sun-day is the time between the sun reaching its highest point in its orbit and the next time this happens. Take a look at Wiki to see that this is correct.
I think we can now safely say that the lenght of a sunsecond depended on the lenght of a sun-day untill 1956.

There is now data available that shows that not every sun-day is as long as any other sun-day. The lenght of a sun-day is not constant. There are indications that sun-days were shorter in the past.

If sun-days were shorter in the past and a sunsecond is a 1/86400th of a sun-day. Then a sunsecond was shorter in the past as well.

Any speed that exists has something to do with a distance and a time it took to cover this distance.

Time is always involved in speed. I don't see how that can be denied.

The measurement of time seems to have been more or less incorrect in the past. Therefore the measurement of speed has been more or less incorrect as well.

If I am mistaken here, please show me.
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Postby tuppence » Mon Nov 29, 2004 06:49 pm

Either you did not read the sections I posted above or English is essentially incomprehensible for you.
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Postby Jovaro » Mon Nov 29, 2004 07:53 pm

Easy question: To measure speed you need both a distance and a time right?
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Postby tuppence » Tue Nov 30, 2004 06:01 pm

Hi, It’s the husband of Tuppence here.

Let me put this in very simple terms for all to understand. Over a period of 300 years or more, the speed of light has dropped by more than 1500 km/s. If you wish to attribute this to changes in the measurement of the second, this is equivalent to saying that the length of the year (365.25 days) has changed by 1.82 days over this period. This is nowhere near what has actually occurred. As pointed out by physicists, the changes in the speed of light are far greater than any adjustments made to other physical quantities such as the second. Therefore the decline in the speed of light cannot be accounted for by these adjustments.

I trust this clarifies the situation.

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Postby Jovaro » Tue Nov 30, 2004 09:41 pm

Well maybe not entirely, but it can explain it at least partly.

these 1.82 days results to a lenght of day of 23:52 in 1700 btw. That ain't all so shocking.

But still, combined with the lesser accuracy in the past, the ideas of that time that lightspeed was infinite and now with the shortening of the second. It gives a pretty good explenation I think.
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Postby tuppence » Fri Dec 03, 2004 04:16 am

Suggest a few years studying physics, jovaro, before you get quite so confident of your own opinion!
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Postby Jovaro » Fri Dec 03, 2004 08:57 am

Oh, come on tuppence. You and Barry seem to have lost the ability to look un-biased at data as well.

Or maybe you didn't and are you still looking at the data without caring to look at anything else. The thing is that when you just look at the data, you will easier overlook reasons why the data could be wrong.

If you find data that doesn't stroke with our view of reality, the first question should be: Why doesn't this stroke with reality? Instead of inmediatly turning the whole modern science upside down and accusing everyone who does take a normal look at the facts of being ignorant.
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Postby tuppence » Fri Dec 03, 2004 04:09 pm

Data itself cannot be biased. That is a property of the human being looking at it.

However, after having learned in university that the speed of light was constant, it was precisely a look at the data itself which led to the research for Barry. He figured the data was simply being misrepresented, too.

But he has been studying it, and other data in related fields, for longer now than I think you have been alive.

In fact, you will find this quote on his home page:

It is never good science to ignore anomalous data or to eliminate a conclusion because of some presupposition. Sir Henry Dale, one-time President of the Royal Society of London, made an important comment in his retirement speech: "Science should not tolerate any lapse of precision, or neglect any anomaly, but give Nature's answers to the world humbly and with courage." To do so may not place one in the mainstream of modern science, but at least we will be searching for truth and moving ahead rather than maintaining the scientific status quo.--Barry Setterfield, March 7, 2002

It might also be noted that recent changes in several of the atomic 'constants' which must also change if 'c' is changing have been noted in the journals recently. It's not just the speed of light; the mass of the electron and Planck's constant and a few others are changing as well.

Good luck with your position -- which is the one, by the way, which is ignoring the data....
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Postby Jovaro » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:51 pm

It is not ignoring the data, but as well at looking at the data, it is looking at how this data was formed. That part you seem to skip.

Or maybe not skip, but do not take a close enough look at.
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Postby tuppence » Sat Dec 04, 2004 05:22 pm

DEAR jovaro, that is EXACTLY what is being questioned and studied!
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Postby Jovaro » Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:47 am

Strange outcomes you get then.
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Postby eprom » Mon Dec 06, 2004 06:59 pm

tuppence wrote:Hi, It’s the husband of Tuppence here. Let me put this in very simple terms for all to understand. Over a period of 300 years or more, the speed of light has dropped by more than 1500 km/s.


I really don’t believe everyone is thinking about this issue in the right framework. The reason the scientific community hasn’t taken this issue of c showing any kind of variation over the last 300 years is because the degree of error in these old mesurements is so dramatic. The information from measurements made of c just a hundred years ago is thought to be so inaccurate that the data is absolutely irrelevant. For instance, if you’re trying to measure the size of a fish you caught, and you’re using the Great Wall of China to do it, the measurements would be a bit suspect, right?

The degree of error in making these kinds of measurements on c has been significantly reduced in the last 30 years, and during this period of time, there has been virtually no change in the measured speed of light. How does creation science deal with this fact? They suggest that the speed of light is actually stabilizing recently as we come closer and closer to the end times. Really - How convenient!
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Postby tuppence » Mon Dec 06, 2004 07:17 pm

The reason the speed of light appears to not have changed in the last thirty years is because that is the amount of time the speed of light has been measured via atomic processes. Since the speed of light is in sync with atomic processes, there is no way a change in it could be measured via those means.

As far as the old measurements go, a couple of points.

1. If it were simply a matter of observational/instrumental error, then we would expect to see measurements on BOTH sides of the current speed of light. We don't. What we see is, despite all possible errors, a steady decline in the measurements, even when taken by the same people with the same instruments over a number of years.

2. Other atomic constants have been measured as changing in exact relation to the changes measured in the speed of light.

It's not a creationist issue. It's a physics issue and it has been being discussed in secular peer-reviewed physics journals since Physics Review D came out with two articles on a changing speed of light in January of 1999.

So it cannot be foisted off on error or us stupid creationists, I'm afraid. The data does not care who sees it.
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Postby Andreas » Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:50 am

Since this is my first post, I'd like to say Hello to everybody.

tuppence wrote:The reason the speed of light appears to not have changed in the last thirty years is because that is the amount of time the speed of light has been measured via atomic processes. Since the speed of light is in sync with atomic processes, there is no way a change in it could be measured via those means.


There is no way to measure the speed of light independent from atomic processes. Not today and not the last centuries. To state that c changed but is in sync with atomic processes is meaningless. If something changes and there is no way to notice this, way would anybody insist that it changed?

Of course there is the possibility, that c isn't in sync. This was proposed some years ago, where it seemed that the fine structure constant alpha, which is dependent of c, changed by a small bit.
But:
1) This change was extremely small
2) It occurred over the last billion years and wouldn't be noticeable over the last centuries
3) Newer measurements didn't confirm this effect:Cowie et al.,NATURE 428 (6979): 132-133,2004



tuppence wrote:1. If it were simply a matter of observational/instrumental error, then we would expect to see measurements on BOTH sides of the current speed of light. We don't. What we see is, despite all possible errors, a steady decline in the measurements, even when taken by the same people with the same instruments over a number of years.


Alternatives, which aren't in contradiction with modern physics:
1) The values aren't correct
2) Other measurements with the opposite trend were simply left out
3) Simply chance

tuppence wrote:2. Other atomic constants have been measured as changing in exact relation to the changes measured in the speed of light.


No. It is known that other constants would change if the speed of light would change. But every single constant remained constant.

tuppence wrote:It's not a creationist issue. It's a physics issue and it has been being discussed in secular peer-reviewed physics journals since Physics Review D came out with two articles on a changing speed of light in January of 1999.

So it cannot be foisted off on error or us stupid creationists, I'm afraid. The data does not care who sees it.


To discuss the possibility of a change of the speed of light is of course a physics issue. But there is no evidence that c changed significantly and in a measurable way at least the last 170000 years.

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Postby tuppence » Tue Dec 07, 2004 04:40 pm

If you look on the second post down, you will find there are a number of ways of measureing the speed of light apart from atomic processes.

The fine structure constant change, or apparent change (which is well within the range of observational/instrumental error, by the way) does not reflect on c, as hc is always constant.

It was suggested by Andreas that the measured changes in light speed were not correct for three possible reasons:

Alternatives, which aren't in contradiction with modern physics:
1) The values aren't correct
2) Other measurements with the opposite trend were simply left out
3) Simply chance


1. The values were consistent and showed a consistent downward trend despite any error bars
2. No data was left out
3. Baloney. The probability that hundreds of measurements over several hundred years by dozens of highly intelligent and qualified men would ALL be chance is so vanishingly small that you might as well figure the sun will explode today!

A number of constants, in the meantime, have changed. Here is a chart with the references of just two besides the speed of light:

http://www.setterfield.org/Charts.htm#graphs

I would suggest, Andreas, that you have been swallowing whole, without checking for yourself, something you have been taught in school. We all did that at first. But if you check the data itself, you will find you were not taught truthfully.
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Postby Andreas » Tue Dec 07, 2004 07:52 pm

tuppence wrote:If you look on the second post down, you will find there are a number of ways of measureing the speed of light apart from atomic processes.


For every measurement you need a ruler. Rulers are made of atoms. Therefor the length of a ruler is dependent on atomic processes. Q.e.d.

The fine structure constant change, or apparent change (which is well within the range of observational/instrumental error, by the way) does not reflect on c, as hc is always constant.


A change of alpha is the only change which has any physical meaning. Because it is a unitless constant it can be measured independent from any ruler. Of course a change in alpha would tell you nothing if c,h,e or epsilon was responsible for it.

1. The values were consistent and showed a consistent downward trend despite any error bars


Even the Institute for Creation Research refrain from Setterfield's work

On this page there is a nice figure what curve you would get if you look at the data more accurate. The result is a decay of the speed of light of
0.0000140 ± 0.0000596 km/s/year


2. No data was left out

May be

3. Baloney. The probability that hundreds of measurements over several hundred years by dozens of highly intelligent and qualified men would ALL be chance is so vanishingly small that you might as well figure the sun will explode today!

Yes, baloney. Of course.

A number of constants, in the meantime, have changed. Here is a chart with the references of just two besides the speed of light:

http://www.setterfield.org/Charts.htm#graphs


Satterfield again. If there is no reason to believe him on c, why should anybody believe him with the other constants? Do you have some sources independent from Satterfield to validate your claim? There should be plenty of possibilities to look on the change of constants. As a hint you may read this.

I would suggest, Andreas, that you have been swallowing whole, without checking for yourself, something you have been taught in school. We all did that at first. But if you check the data itself, you will find you were not taught truthfully.


School? That was some years ago. I hope I did improve my level of understanding since then.

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Postby tuppence » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:22 am

Good gravy,

1. The material is posted on Setterfield's site, but the references are from mainstream secular physics journals! Are you trying to say that if Setterfield references it then it must be wrong?

2. The Aardsma article on the data use in the 1987 report was fallacious. You will notice no measurements are given on the chart. That is because they are so big that the changes shown in the historical data all get lumped together. It is the same idea as deciding to measure the petal lengh of flowers in kilometers. The actual data, shown in appropriate scale, describes a definite and consistent downward trend. This was noted by physicists in the early part of the twentieth century. As for the Setterfield use of the data, it has been examined and reported on quite accurately by Lambert Dolphin, a senior research physicist at Stanford Research Institute International at the time and Alan Montgomery, a senior statistical analyst for the Canadian goverment. Their reports may be found here: http://www.setterfield.org/data.htm

3. It is obvious you have neither looked at the post above where I described historical ways of measuring the speed of light nor have you looked at the Setterfield material for yourself.

Please inform yourself of what you are talking about before you start talking about it, OK?
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Postby Andreas » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:17 am

tuppence wrote:Good gravy,
1. The material is posted on Setterfield's site, but the references are from mainstream secular physics journals! Are you trying to say that if Setterfield references it then it must be wrong?


Not quite, I just don't trust his interpretation. Let me explain why:
A) Setterfield makes an extraordinary claim. If he is right, almost everything we know about modern physics is wrong.
B) Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof.
B) The way, how he got his data is trivial. To look at old measurements is no big deal. Everybody with a decent scientific background can review his claims. And yet, bot creationists as well as the scientific community reject his findings.

So, if it is so extraordinary but in the same instance so trivial there must be other references you can cite. The change of fundamental constants is a hot topic in physics, so where is the work that is in agreement with Setterfield?


tuppence wrote:2. The Aardsma article on the data use in the 1987 report was fallacious. You will notice no measurements are given on the chart. That is because they are so big that the changes shown in the historical data all get lumped together. It is the same idea as deciding to measure the petal lengh of flowers in kilometers. The actual data, shown in appropriate scale, describes a definite and consistent downward trend. This was noted by physicists in the early part of the twentieth century. As for the Setterfield use of the data, it has been examined and reported on quite accurately by Lambert Dolphin, a senior research physicist at Stanford Research Institute International at the time and Alan Montgomery, a senior statistical analyst for the Canadian goverment. Their reports may be found here: http://www.setterfield.org/data.htm


Tell that the Institute for Creation Research. They would be very glad to find one scientific proof for a decay of the speed of light.

3. It is obvious you have neither looked at the post above where I described historical ways of measuring the speed of light nor have you looked at the Setterfield material for yourself.

Please inform yourself of what you are talking about before you start talking about it, OK?


I would appreciate it very much if you would response to my points and not to repeat some unsupported claims about my person.

Your claim is:

tuppence wrote:The reason the speed of light appears to not have changed in the last thirty years is because that is the amount of time the speed of light has been measured via atomic processes. Since the speed of light is in sync with atomic processes, there is no way a change in it could be measured via those means.


My response:

Andreas wrote:There is no way to measure the speed of light independent from atomic processes. Not today and not the last centuries. To state that c changed but is in sync with atomic processes is meaningless. If something changes and there is no way to notice this, way would anybody insist that it changed?


You seem to disagree, so let's look at some of your examples:

Toothed-Wheel Experiments:
You need the distance the light will travel. To measure this distance you need a ruler. And the length of the ruler is depended from what?

tuppence wrote:What is happening is that the light carrying the information from the Jupiter-Io system is taking time to travel across the diameter of the earth’s orbit, so the eclipse information takes longer to get to the earth when it is at the furthest point in its orbit.


For this measurements you need the distance between Earth and Jupiter. How do you measure this distance? Again you need a ruler. And the length of the ruler is dependent from what?

My main point is, that every measurement of c is dependent from a ruler which length is dependent from c. If you disagree explain why. If you don't understand ask.

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Postby Non-Christian » Wed Dec 08, 2004 08:57 pm

Andreas, you make an excellent counter argument.

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Postby tuppence » Thu Dec 09, 2004 04:57 am

Andreas, you are probably not aware that I am Mrs. Barry Setterfield. Before we were married, I was his editor. I have worked with a number of scientists from all sides of the creation/evolution coin. Something that impressed me about Barry LONG before we even became friends was that he was approaching the subject he was working with data first. He is the ONLY scientist I know who has done that. Most, on both sides of the question, do what is being done by so many here: theory first and then cram the data in as well as it can be crammed.

So I can personally vouch for the Setterfield material. I personally have examined it. I have spoken at length with the people who have also examined it. We were invited to speak at ICR over a year ago and are still in conversation with a number of them. Barry has been invited to speak to physicists all over the world and a number of them travel hundreds and even thousands of miles to talk to him here at our home.

So until YOU know what you are talking about, it's time to study. And if you are trying to indicate that the folks in the 19th and early 20th century were using atomic bases for measurements you are slightly crackers. You need a little history of math, astronomy, and physics under your belt.

In the meantime, the references on the chart page have not been 'interpreted' at all. The measurements as accepted by the secular professional physics community in the years indicated are simply put on the graphs. That's it. Not special measurements, but the accepted measurements.

And yes, as a matter of fact, a lot of what we think we know in modern physics is indeed wrong. There is a lot that is currently being questioned in the physics journals. There is a lot going on, and it is very interesting and intriguing for those who are keeping up.
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Postby Jovaro » Thu Dec 09, 2004 09:52 am

You still failed to answer Andreas' point.....
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Postby tuppence » Thu Dec 09, 2004 05:01 pm

Jovaro, I'm sorry, but I would not expect you to recognize the answer, which was there.
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Postby Jovaro » Thu Dec 09, 2004 07:31 pm

Why don't you make it more clear for the simple souls like myself then?

How do you measure anything without using atomic bases?

Just one example will do I think. I can't think of any.
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Postby Andreas » Thu Dec 09, 2004 09:54 pm

Nice to meet you Mrs. Setterfield. I'm Andreas.

tuppence wrote:So I can personally vouch for the Setterfield material. I personally have examined it. I have spoken at length with the people who have also examined it. We were invited to speak at ICR over a year ago and are still in conversation with a number of them. Barry has been invited to speak to physicists all over the world and a number of them travel hundreds and even thousands of miles to talk to him here at our home.


So let's repeat it one more time. Since the basic analysis of the data is so trivial, since it is such a hot topic and since your were in contact with scientist all over the world: Where are the other sources? Where are the publications? Even if you want to argue with a big conspiracy of the science community it would be really easy to publish the data in a journal about the history of science.

So until YOU know what you are talking about, it's time to study. And if you are trying to indicate that the folks in the 19th and early 20th century were using atomic bases for measurements you are slightly crackers. You need a little history of math, astronomy, and physics under your belt.


At least I recognize, that you didn't understand my point. Please explain how to measure distances not using a ruler consisting out of atoms. It's not a hard question - I know one.


In the meantime, the references on the chart page have not been 'interpreted' at all. The measurements as accepted by the secular professional physics community in the years indicated are simply put on the graphs. That's it. Not special measurements, but the accepted measurements.


Of course they are interpreted. Corrections are made, measurements of one constant depends on the measurement of other constants which need to be taken into account and so on. That's even noted in the work of your husband, how can you deny it?


And yes, as a matter of fact, a lot of what we think we know in modern physics is indeed wrong. There is a lot that is currently being questioned in the physics journals. There is a lot going on, and it is very interesting and intriguing for those who are keeping up.


I don't get your logic. We know that a lot in modern physics is wrong. If we know that it's wrong how can we know it then?

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Postby tuppence » Fri Dec 10, 2004 04:19 am

Andreas, there are people publishing material regarding the speed of light all over the place now. Because following the data as Barry has done results in the impossibility of an old universe, however, I can guarantee to you that those who agree with him will not be published in peer-reviewed secular journals. The secular peer-reviewed journals turn down EVERY attempt by anyone associated with any creationist leanings. The only exception to this that I am aware of involves the articles by Mark Armitage on parisitism, which are strictly biological and not connected with his YEC stand. But I can guarantee to you that his material on radiohalos in conjunction with Dr. Andrew Snelling will never make it into a secular journal.

What you will see in the speed of light materials which are being published in the secular press (Maguiejo, Barrow, Albrecht, etc.) is the insistence on ONLY the speed of light changing, when that is impossible. My husband had a chance to ask Dr. Albrecht about this a year or so ago, and Dr. Albrecht's response was that if they didn't limit the change to just the speed of light, they wouldn't be able to arrive at the conclusion they wanted to arrive at! Now THAT'S the way to do science, eh? Determine your conclusion ahead of time and then manipulate the data to agree.

Barry has not done that. He has simply reported, on those charts, the data that was accepted as accurate each of those years and given the publications the data was found in. There is no interpretation in that, just reporting. Keep in mind that those who reported the data and the publications in which the data was recorded are all anti-creation.

However, there is an entire physics research group at Mahatma Ghandi University in India which has requested, and received, hard copies of all Barry's work as it is one of their main fields of research right now. And again, scientists from all over the world, literally, contact us on a continuing basis about Barry's work. He is taken very seriously -- albeit still in private. I am hoping that does not continue that way, but we are confident that in God's good time, the people who want the truth will be able to find it. And those who don't want it won't care anyway.

Now, about measurements. The fact that everything consists of atoms has nothing to do with the standards of measurements in the past when atoms were unknown. Atomic measurements are a product of the twentieth century and were unknown, and therefore unused, in the past.

About what is wrong in physics. Physicsts are often all to ready to admit that a lot of the quantum theories that hold sway now are running into too many problems to be very satisfactory. You can know something is wrong without having found out what is right yet. There is a lot of work going on. If you are truly interested in this field, suggest you subscribe to one of the standard physics journals and start reading!
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Postby Jovaro » Fri Dec 10, 2004 08:13 am

tuppence wrote:Now, about measurements. The fact that everything consists of atoms has nothing to do with the standards of measurements in the past when atoms were unknown. Atomic measurements are a product of the twentieth century and were unknown, and therefore unused, in the past.

Uhm.. Am I really stupid now or are you saying that the rulers in the past were not made of atoms? :-?
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Postby Andreas » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:39 am

tuppence wrote:Andreas, there are people publishing material regarding the speed of light all over the place now.

Of course, it's a hot topic. But there are important differences to the work of your husband:
  • As far as I know none of them observed a change of the speed of light. They only state if a change occurred, it must be below a certain value.
  • The speak about different orders of magnitude than you. For example a change of c during the first 1e-300 seconds after the big bang.
  • They are in agreement with the Theory of Relativity.
  • They usually make it clear, that they speak about a change of c in relation to other constants. They don't deny this important point.

Because following the data as Barry has done results in the impossibility of an old universe, however, I can guarantee to you that those who agree with him will not be published in peer-reviewed secular journals. The secular peer-reviewed journals turn down EVERY attempt by anyone associated with any creationist leanings.


Ah, the Peer Review Conspiracy [tm]. The simplest counterargument is, that creationistic ideas are hardly know outside America. Try to publish it in an European journal and try to avoid any unsupported claims not supported by any data, interpretate or not.

What you will see in the speed of light materials which are being published in the secular press (Maguiejo, Barrow, Albrecht, etc.) is the insistence on ONLY the speed of light changing, when that is impossible.

Wrong. Should I cite some?

Barry has not done that. He has simply reported, on those charts, the data that was accepted as accurate each of those years and given the publications the data was found in. There is no interpretation in that, just reporting. Keep in mind that those who reported the data and the publications in which the data was recorded are all anti-creation.

So in peer reviewed scientific journals there is clear evidence for a c decay and yet peer reviewed scientific journals refuses to publish an overview of those values. Funny.

However, there is an entire physics research group at Mahatma Ghandi University in India which has requested, and received, hard copies of all Barry's work as it is one of their main fields of research right now.


Names? Publications?


Now, about measurements. The fact that everything consists of atoms has nothing to do with the standards of measurements in the past when atoms were unknown. Atomic measurements are a product of the twentieth century and were unknown, and therefore unused, in the past.


It is irrelevant if the user of a ruler knows if it consist out of atoms. Atoms and the interaction between atoms don't care about the opinion of its user.

About what is wrong in physics. Physicsts are often all to ready to admit that a lot of the quantum theories that hold sway now are running into too many problems to be very satisfactory. You can know something is wrong without having found out what is right yet. There is a lot of work going on. If you are truly interested in this field, suggest you subscribe to one of the standard physics journals and start reading!


Now that's better formulated. I think you are speaking about the renormalization theory of quantum electro-dynamics. That's indeed not very satisfactory. On the other hand it gives a very accurate description how nature works. Your misconception is, that the scientific community don't think those ideas are wrong, they only believe they can be improved and that we don't see the whole picture. A good comparison would be Newton's Theory of Gravity. Today we know a much better theory but nobody would think Newton was wrong.

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Postby tuppence » Sat Dec 11, 2004 04:44 am

Just one note to that stuff: the fact that things are made of atoms has NOTHING to do with atomic measurements! This is a hopeless discussion if you don't know the difference about that.

Here, in closing are a couple of quotes for you:

http://www.the-scientist.com/yr2004/sep ... 40927.html

“We don't need a revolution to put things right, but we must find ways of releasing the few Einsteinian scientists from the mind-numbing bureaucracy of recent times. The most important of these is peer review, that highly dispersed, latter-day inquisition for the defense of orthodoxy to which every scientist today must submit before a step can be taken.”

***************

http://www.alternativescience.com/censorship.htm (Richard Milton's site).

Today it would be virtually impossible for any scientific paper that has anti-Darwinian implications to be published in Nature or in any serious peer-reviewed scientific journal, regardless of the scientific merits of its findings.

To be an exception to this rule an anti-Darwinian paper would have to be of paradigm shattering importance, like Cairns and Hall's experiment on directed mutation. Even then, publication of the results is likely to be hedged around with qualifications, argumenta ad hominem directed at the authors and technical quibbles that would never be directed at any paper supporting Darwinism.

A prime example of this academic censorship is the case of British biologist Warwick Collins. In 1976 Collins was studying biology at Sussex University under the eminent Darwinist Professor John Maynard Smith. Collins wrote a paper on sexual selection as an anomaly in Darwinian theory. Dr. John Thoday, professor of genetics at Cambridge, invited Collins to present an expanded version of his paper to an international conference of population geneticists -- an honour for the young undergraduate.

Collins says, 'In the paper I tried to extend further my doubts about the assumptions in Darwinian evolutionary theory. Out of courtesy I circulated the expanded paper to my distinguished tutor prior to the conference. Before I was due to take the stand, Professor Maynard Smith stood up in front of the conference and roundly denounced the premises of my paper.'

After the conference Maynard Smith told Collins that 'he would use his considerable influence to block publication of any further papers of mine which questioned the fundamental premises of Darwinian theory.'

Collins has, indeed, found it impossible to have any further papers published up to as recently as 1994, when a paper he submitted to Nature was rejected without reason. Not surprisingly, Collins has left the field of biology.

Darwinists have thus begun not merely to react to criticism by members of their own profession but have gone on the attack. As in the case above, some of their methods of attack leave a very unpleasant taste in the mouth of anyone educated in the western liberal-intellectual tradition.
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Postby Jovaro » Sat Dec 11, 2004 04:41 pm

tuppence wrote:Just one note to that stuff: the fact that things are made of atoms has NOTHING to do with atomic measurements! This is a hopeless discussion if you don't know the difference about that.

But there is still the issue about the ruler. How do you know that it wasn't the ruler that changed?
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Postby tuppence » Sat Dec 11, 2004 05:34 pm

In other words, so you can keep the speed of light constant, you want rulers to change their length, time to tick at a different rate, and mass to change. At least that is how some who favor relativity approach the issue.

That is primarily story-telling. I would prefer looking at the hard data.
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Postby Jovaro » Sat Dec 11, 2004 08:05 pm

I did not say that I want that to happen, I am merely asking how you know that it didn't happen.

You read Andreas' posts, he made a strong point. Why don't you just answer it?
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Postby tuppence » Sun Dec 12, 2004 02:03 am

What point wasn't answered?
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Postby Jovaro » Sun Dec 12, 2004 07:36 am

How do you know that it wasn't the ruler that changed?
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Postby tuppence » Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:45 pm

Which ruler?
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Postby Jovaro » Mon Dec 13, 2004 09:47 am

The ruler that said what a meter is/was eg?
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Postby Andreas » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:58 pm

tuppence wrote:Which ruler?


Are you joking? We discussed about the ruler since my first post. You know, the device made out of atoms to measure distances.

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Postby tuppence » Thu Dec 16, 2004 06:13 pm

And this device was used to measure distances of a mile and up in the speed of light experiments? People laid rulers end to end to measure these distances?

You can't really believe that!
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Postby Jovaro » Thu Dec 16, 2004 07:03 pm

Good lord tuppence...

Perhaps it is time to treat others a bit more like you would treat yourself.

Every distance is measured with a ruler in one way or another. A kilometer is based on the meter in Paris. Every speed we measure is based on both this meter again and the defenition of a second.

Why don't you just answer the question now? Or don't you have a satisfying answer perhaps? If so, feel free to admit it.
Listen to your heart and open your mind

tuppence
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Postby tuppence » Thu Dec 16, 2004 08:03 pm

The meter has been standard for hundreds of years. Do you have evidence that it has changed in length?

Long distances were measured in one of two ways, both set against the standard meter length: a wheel or a tape. Have all these changed? Do you have evidence of that change?

If not, then you are playing games again. The 'What If' scenarios are not what I am concerned with. If you have evidence of this sort of change I am very interested. If it is simply an imagination thing, save it for telling stories around the campfire.

The length comparison to the wave length of krypton have remained exact. I think it is Krypton...

Michaelson used Cadmium.

At any rate, the scientists would certainly have known if there was a problem with changing length, even at that very tiny scale.

In the meantime, the change in the speed of light was so massive compared to any possibility and type of change in the standard meter, that this entire argument of yours about changing lengths is moot.
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Postby Andreas » Fri Dec 17, 2004 09:43 am

tuppence wrote:Long distances were measured in one of two ways, both set against the standard meter length: a wheel or a tape. Have all these changed? Do you have evidence of that change?

....sniped....

In the meantime, the change in the speed of light was so massive compared to any possibility and type of change in the standard meter, that this entire argument of yours about changing lengths is moot.


That's really frustrating. Tuppence, I would suggest you go back and reread this thread. The point isn't, that we did measure a c-decay because the standard meter in Paris did change. That's nonsense. The point is that if a change in c happend, especially a change in sync with other atomic processe as you initially claimed, that it would be impossible to notice this. The length of any ruler is proportional to c. And any ruler really means any ruler. The standard meter, a wheel, the distance between two mountains or two planets.
As long as you insist on a simply change of c that's physically irrelevant. You have to speak about a change of c in relation to something else, that isn't dependent from c.

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Postby tuppence » Fri Dec 17, 2004 03:04 pm

The following have all changed. They are not dependent on c.
Planck's Constant
Electron Mass
Proton Mass
Gyromagnetic Ratio
Magnetic Flux Quantum
Josephson Constant
Electron charge-to-mass quotient
e/h

All have been shown to have changed between 1969 and now as published by CODATA.

These are not dependent upon the size of the meter!

And, again, any possible change in the size of the meter is far outweighed by the measured changes in the speed of light.

Suggest you actually read the material and not simply harp on this one moot point.

http://www.setterfield.org/scipubl.html
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DRPHYSICS
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Postby DRPHYSICS » Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:48 pm

Tuppence writes:
Data itself cannot be biased. That is a property of the human being looking at it.

That is a significant and fundamental misunderstanding of what bias is. Bias is not the same as prejudice, which is something human. Prejudice is a human being's thinking that things must be one way and not another irrespective of evidence.

Prejudice is a kind of bias, but it is not the main or only thing we mean by data bias. Bias is a tendency. As most of you know, when experiments are done and measurements made, there is always some error in each measurement. Every measurement of the speed of light gives a value different to some degree from the actual value of the speed of light. Data bias or systematic error consists of measurements that are, for one reason or another, systematically greater or less than the actual value of the thing being measured. For example, if one were trying to measure the speed of light with a rotating-mirror type experiment with a baseline of measured length 1.00 km, but the actual length were 1.01 km (an improbably large measurement error, but this is for illustrative purposes) then the reported measured speed of light from this experiment would be systematically about one percent too small. That would be a kind of data bias having nothing to do with the prejudices of a human mind.

Finding sources of systematic error in experiments is really the essence of the experimental art. They are often subtle, and hard to detect even by those skilled in experiments. Whether apparent discrepancies between late 19th-centurements of the speed of light and contemporary measurements are the result of such data bias would require a much deeper analysis of the details of the 19th-century experiments than I am able to present, and I say nothing here to resolve that question. In this post I simply want to make clear that data bias is a real property of data independent of any human mind analyzing that data.

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Postby DRPHYSICS » Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:17 am

Tuppence writes:
The results of the rotating mirror experiments are summarized in Table 6. If the results rejected by the experimenters themselves are omitted along with Fourcault’s admittedly pioneer experiment which was “intended to ascertain the possibilities of the method,” then a least squares linear fit to the six data points gives a decay of 1.85 Km/s per year. The value of the correlation coefficient, r, equals -0.932, with a confidence interval of 99.6% in this decay correlation.

But what is the value of chi Squared? That is essential. The value of chi squared will help us answer the question of whether the data actually fit a linear model. Hogh correlation coefficients are nice, but they don't help us here. The correlation coefficient is a measure of how closely the data fit a (linear, in this case) model given that they actually fit a linear model. Similarly, the value of the slope of the line of best fit is of interest only if the data actually fit a linear model. We need chi squared to answer that threshold question.


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