open-minded teaching supported by scientists, ACLU opposes

[tuppence]

From http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stori ... 635&EDATE=

Georgia Scientists File Legal Brief in Evolution Lawsuit, Defend Open-Minded Approach to Teaching Evolution


ATLANTA, Nov. 8 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The courts should not prevent
educators from encouraging students to approach the study of evolution with an
open mind according to over 30 scientists, including 25 from Georgia, who have
submitted a legal brief to the US District Court in the Northern District of
Georgia.
The court begins hearing testimony today in a lawsuit brought by the ACLU
challenging the Cobb Co. school district's right to insert a sticker into high
school biology textbooks which states: "This textbook contains material on
evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living
things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied
carefully, and critically considered."
"Frankly, it's astonishing that the ACLU opposes having students study
evolution 'with an open mind,'" says attorney Seth Cooper, an expert on the
legal aspects of teaching evolution. "The ACLU is supposed to be against
censorship and favor the free marketplace of ideas, but here it is
dogmatically trying to censor a school district from encouraging an
open-minded approach to teaching evolution."
Cooper points out that the textbook sticker does not deal with creationism
or even alternative scientific theories to evolution: "It merely encourages
students to avoid dogmatism when studying evolution by carefully and
critically examining the evidence with an open mind," explains Cooper. "That
sort of critical inquiry is the heart of what science is supposed to be
about."
While the ACLU claims there is no debate among scientists over Darwinian
evolution, Cooper, a program officer with the Discovery Institute's Center for
Science & Culture, explains that this is simply not true.
"There is a robust and growing scientific controversy surrounding
neo-Darwinian theory," says Cooper. "The scientists listed in this brief
wanted to correct the ACLU's patently erroneous claim that no scientists
question Darwinian evolution."
The brief states "that the science education necessary to equip students
for the 21st Century should not censor relevant scientific information about
important scientific controversies (such as neo-Darwinian and chemical
evolutionary theories), but should fully inform students about such debates."
Scientists joining the legal brief include biologists and biochemists from
state schools such as University of Georgia, Georgia Southern University,
Georgia Institute of Technology, Kennesaw State University, Stanford
University, and Ohio State University. Many of the scientists are signatories
of the national "Scientific Dissent from Darwinism" list of over
300 scientists who are "skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation
and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful
examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged."


SOURCE Discovery Institute
Web Site: http://www.discovery.org

[Jovaro]

Great idea those stickers, I think. They should do the same with Christianity and all other religions though.

I also think that it should state on those stickers that evolution is a scientific theory.

[Helix]

"Warning! This church contains christianity! Please consider that religion is not a science."

That would make a nice sticker.

[Jovaro]

This textbook contains material on Christianity. Christianity is only one of the thousands of religions that are claiming to be the perfect one. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied
carefully, and critically considered.

[tuppence]

Warning: this thread is getting ridiculous and will be closed unless it gets back on topic.

[spunky]

First off not all people who disbelieve evolution are christian and not all christians disbelieve evolution therefore not allowing the scientific flip side to be taught in school's has nothing to do with christianity and everything to do with evolutionists lack of faith in their own theory. if evolutionsist had true faith in their theory there would be no reason for them to not permit the science against evolution. No reason to fear loosing their young easily manipulated audience and teach them not to question the indoctrination set upon them by todays society. the magority of evolutionist i know believe in evolution simply because they were told to and have no idea of how basic the high school version is. What have evolutionists to fear I wonder to encorage young people to look deeper into the theory? I admit my knowledge of evolution is scarcely above the high-school level myself. If I were to delve into the intricasies of the theory would i be met with more evidence to support it? Or the vice? i tuely don't know but Cooper's trial leads me to believe it is more likely the later. it makes it appear as if the evolutions have something to hide. For this reason it ought to be as important to the evolutionists that both sides be taught that the theory may be given the chance to stand against new evidence as to the creationists to be allowed to question.

[Helix]

You asked what evolutionists have to fear. Well, nothing. It would be ENCOURAGED if young people took more interest in the theory of evolution!

I regret not having been taught about evolution. I took biology classes for a few years. I continued this for a year, even after I didn't have to take them anymore. (Involves intricate Dutch educational system; don't ask)

In all those years, I cannot remember a single chapter dealing with 'evolution.' It seemed to be such an intrinsical part of life in general that I never questioned it. I was not raised as an 'evolutionist' by my school. We never discussed evolution; we examined why pieces of potato suck up water and calculated the chances of a white and a black cat having white kittens or what the sexual life of plants was all about.

It was later on in life that I was fascinated with the way evolution works. Blaming schools for 'indoctrinating' children seems a bit harsh. However, I couldn't resist making this.



lol

[spunky]

but that's the point helix. Young people are demanding to know more about evolution. Wanting both sides taught in high schools, wanting the topic mentioned with more then a passing glance in colleges and we are not being told. The school system refuses to teach it.

and I don't think claiming indoctrination go to any college/University here in canada and the first thing you r told is God belongs in niether philosophy, pschology or science debate this and you fail the course. Or at least are graded harder and mocked constantly, at which point most students simple drop out or switch schools and play along.

And it doesn't even have to be a question of God. Debate the morals behind feeding the hungry and it's the same. And I'm sure you will agree that it's not just the christians who want to feed the hungry if 3rd world countries. And yet in ecology you are told to believe that it's best to starve them, let them die off so the population levels off and overpopulattion is corrected.

[(Omega)]

You asked what evolutionists have to fear. Well, nothing. It would be ENCOURAGED if young people took more interest in the theory of evolution!

I regret not having been taught about evolution. I took biology classes for a few years. I continued this for a year, even after I didn't have to take them anymore. (Involves intricate Dutch educational system; don't ask)

In all those years, I cannot remember a single chapter dealing with 'evolution.' It seemed to be such an intrinsical part of life in general that I never questioned it. I was not raised as an 'evolutionist' by my school. We never discussed evolution; we examined why pieces of potato suck up water and calculated the chances of a white and a black cat having white kittens or what the sexual life of plants was all about.

It was later on in life that I was fascinated with the way evolution works. Blaming schools for 'indoctrinating' children seems a bit harsh. However, I couldn't resist making this.



lol

Here is another Door I though you'd might be interested in, it's the door to your heart! I couldn't resist making this, this door does not contain all religions, but it is The Only Way, The Truth and the Life.



God Bless!

[LindaBee2]

I have only one thing to say about this mess: It's easier to pet a rabies-infected pit bull and get out alive, than to make the ACLU happy.

Actually, when I really think about it, the ACLU could be compared to the rabies-infected pit bull.

BTW: Omega, I like the image you used. It makes an excellent point.

Helix, stop putting your trust in science and rely upon the One who formed you within your mother's womb.

[Helix]

Helix, stop putting your trust in science and rely upon the One who formed you within your mother's womb.

Hee LindaBee2, how nice to see you joined the debate. How are your head-aches? (No sarcasm intended.)

I have not seen enough evidence for god to 'stop putting my trust in science.' Christians have been claiming on this forum that science will proof the bible right. If this is so, what's the problem with science?

Here is another Door I though you'd might be interested in, it's the door to your heart!

You mean this one?:

[(Omega)]

Take Care and Enjoy life here to the fullest Helix because thats all you have.

[tuppence]

It may not be that simple for him, Omega. C.S. Lewis, in "The Great Divorce", made an interesting proposal: that for those who end up in heaven, they will look back and say, "But I was always in heaven!" and those who end up in hell will look back and say "But I was always in hell!"

Memories are not always what you think they will be!

[Helix]

icon_frown.gif
Take Care and Enjoy life here to the fullest Helix because thats all you have. icon_cry.gif

Haha, don't worry, I will.

Do you think hell will be like Dante described in Inferno (first of the 'La Divina Commedia' trilogy)or will it be different?

(Dante's Hell consisted of layers that led downwards. In the center of the hell was Lucifer/Satan. He was frozen into the ice, because the center of hell was a frozen wasteland filled with frozen sinner corpses.)

Do you think the center of hell is frozen or will it be hot?

[tuppence]

I think anything Dante imagined will pale in comparison to the reality.

[LindaBee2]

Hey, Helix. The headaches have been gone for a while now. You read an old post. Now I just get them when my kitten stresses me out...which is often. I joked with my friend, Cassi, that maybe this kitten is God's way of saying, "Are you sure you want to have kids? Because if you're stressed while taking care of a kitten, how are you going to be when you have a baby to take care of?" It's been an adventure, to say the least. But it's worth it.

There's nothing wrong with science, but there's everything wrong with putting your trust in it. Why? Because science can't save you from the wrath that is to come. One day, we all will have to stand before God, who will hold us accountable for our actions. Nothing -- especially science -- is going to do you any good then.

[Helix]

But if you don't believe in a god and having to justify your actions, science offers all te answers one is looking for. I'm reading about Darwinism and psychology right now, and it explains a lot of about morality from an evolutionist's point of view. I'll probably start a new topic about it soon (when I finish the book) so let's not go into this too deeply here.

I'm still convinced that a 'godless' universe works just as well as (and in a lot of ways even more logical than) a universe WITH a creator/god.

BTW: I'm glad to hear that your headaches have subsided. Are you convinced it were the prayers form the Prayer Request Forum that stopped them or could it have been something else?

[LindaBee2]

I'm convinced that it was the prayers. I am a strong believer in the power of prayer. Sometimes prayer is answered right away and sometimes it takes a while. I believe that God's timing is perfect, and that He always answers prayer.

[Helix]

Though the previous reply was without sarcasm, this one is: How can you be sure that god cured your head-ache?! Most head-aches go away naturally! Muslim, christian, jew or something else.

Why do religions even fight each other?! The 'christian Americans' seem to think they have the upper hand, but the 'muslim Arabians' seem to think the same. Any thoughts about the matter of religion-based warfare?

[LindaBee2]

It's called faith, Helix.

Also, how does my belief in God and the power of prayer affect you? Why are you so concerned about those two beliefs? I'm worried about your soul, so that's why I'm concerned about your beliefs. But I want to know why you're worried about my faith.

[gerani]

"Helix, stop putting your trust in science and rely upon the One who formed you within your mother's womb."

i put my trust in the history and evidence in this earth, this world made by God. theyve been finding links of evolution around the world. i was taught evolution and ive always believed it true and accepted. i find it a more reasonable, logical explanation that two humans instantly appearing.

over the ages humans adapt to thier environment. we have no use for moving our ears and a tail bone. we steadily grew to walk upright.

if you believe in the creationist theory, then you believe that all black people are inferior to whites just because of the story of Noah's ark and how his child sinned? doesnt make sense. how does that explain that chinese people look different, and that indians and europeans are caucasian. where are the slanted eyes?! why are japanese people genetically have shorter legs?

[tuppence]

I never cease being astounded at how little some of you have learned in your places of education.

First, if you have studied the history of men at all, you will know that all three major groups, biblically, have populations of melanin-advantaged and disadvantaged people within them. The variations in eye, nose, lip, leg shapes are simply that -- variations in the human population! It means absolutely nothing, gerani, in terms of anything OTHER than simple and normal variation.

The fact that some have used those differences to found or promote racisim in any place is an example of ignorance, not just of biology, but of the Bible as well, which actively speaks FOR all varieties of people being equal in the eyes of God (and, therefore should be in the eyes of each other).

Gerani, you state you were taught evolution and always believed it true. That is the way every child thinks until he starts researching and thinking for himself, which I strongly urge you to do. Just because you learned it as a child and it has been supported by your educational places does not make it true. Geocentricity, slavery, and spontaneous generation were all taught as truth once, too, in the universities in Europe.

It is understandable to be gullible as a child, but I urge you to go past your childhood and start studying the data for yourself.

Oh, and by the way, the next time you think you have no use for your tailbone, you might consider that it is NOT a 'tail' bone, but a coccyx, and that it never was part of anyone's tail, and that it is the place where your muscles attach which help you sit down and also to go to the bathroom.

You can live without your coccyx. But then you can live without your arms and legs, too!

[gerani]

yes i kno about the coccyx. but its a remnant of evolution...

can you explain to me creationsim? im just so confused how people can just instantaneously appear. there is no rationality behind it.

[tuppence]

There is no evidence ANYWHERE that the coccyx is an evolutionary remnant.

Creation is what you are left with, if you like, when you realize that evolution apart from variation is a total bit of nonsense based on the desire to eliminate God.

[gerani]

why? muslims, hindus both believe in God but we dont believe in creationism.

even if evolution was true, why dont you think it came from God? that was just a story from the bible. all cultures had stories like that. the point is never to take myths and legends seriously. they have more value that whats on the surface.

even if evolution was true or creationsim, the beginning came from God. God itself never has a beginning. thats what i believe in albeit the theories.

[tuppence]

There are a great many YEC Muslims, sorry gerani.

Hndus have zillions of gods.

There is only one. Read somewhere that man can't make a microbe, but he manages to make gods by the dozens. The Hindu gods are demons.

There is one Creator God. Just One.

And He told us how He did it.

[LindaBee2]

if you believe in the creationist theory, then you believe that all black people are inferior to whites just because of the story of Noah's ark and how his child sinned?

Say what? What on Earth are you talking about? And no, black people are not inferior to whites. No one is inferior to anyone! We're all equal.

Still have no idea what you're talking about.

[gerani]

There is only one. Read somewhere that man can't make a microbe, but he manages to make gods by the dozens. The Hindu gods are demons.

have a nice day!!!

Say what? What on Earth are you talking about? And no, black people are not inferior to whites. No one is inferior to anyone! We're all equal.

Still have no idea what you're talking about.

sigh... noah's story of the descendents is a made up story to explain how all different races came to be. have you heard of that story where noah is drunk and naked, ham came in and saw him naked. he told his brothers and they clothed him. when noah came to, he got mad at ham and cursed his descendents... who were black.


and also see this site http://www.bible-truth.org/GEN10.HTM

there is no truth behind adam and eve, or noah. they are just stories. perhaps *some* truth to noah's story because the great flood story exists in most cultures.

no evidence. no truth. just stories with mere theories and explanations.

[On My Way]

Hello gerani

sigh... noah's story of the descendents is a made up story to explain how all different races came to be. have you heard of that story where noah is drunk and naked, ham came in and saw him naked. he told his brothers and they clothed him. when noah came to, he got mad at ham and cursed his descendents... who were black.

What????????????????

Wow I don't know what to say. How did you come up with that one?
I was always told it was the act of sexual perversion, the fact he went and was telling his brothers outside was the act of voyerism. I have not truely found out what "nakedness" in the bible means yet other than the obvious
Can you show me the passage in the bible that says they were black?
For his son to be Black Noah would have to have been Black.. Correct?
So then why the curse?....sigh..............

This is taken from the site gerani linked above

THE CANAANITES
The origin of the hated and sinful Canaanite who lived in Palestine came for the lineage of Ham. The Canaanites practiced probably the most sordid and evil religions based on murder and sexual perversion. The idol Baal, was the son of El, the head of a pantheon of decadent deities. Their civilizations was so corrupted that God commanded the Children of Israel to completely destroy them including their animals. Other descendants of the Canaanites were the Chinese, from the Sinites, verse 10:17. Further, the Sinites were probably the ancestors of all the Mongoloid peoples including the people of the South Sea Islands and the Americas.

edit: gerani if you go to the link you provided and go to the bottom and read the author's theroy on the origin of race it may open your eyes

[Helix]

The Hindu gods are demons.

Lol, what evidence do you have for this? Why is your god not a demon and others 'the one real god'? And why couldn't there be several real gods in your opinion? I really hope the answer is not going to be 'becasue my bible says so.'

Here is a very informative site on the several religions in the world: http://www.godchecker.com/

Lol, the best god is probably the Egyptian god 'Min'. He is the god of Lettuce and Sex! Lol, the god of lettuce! Here's the link to Min: http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/egyp ... ?deity=MIN

Make sure you visit the demons too! There are some very intersting monstrosities (Halloween special!): http://www.godchecker.com/gotw/016_halloween_nasties.php

I regard any god with the same scepticism you would feel towards the god of lettuce and sex. I think its quite humoristic to see a christian tell a hindu that he believes in a demons, because I find it hard to believe that ANY god(s) exists. There is only one word that comes to mind: MYTHOLOGY.

[LindaBee2]

Helix, are you telling us that you are so unbelievably arrogant and dependant upon science, that you cannot even admit that there's a possibility that God exists?

To be fair, if (and that's a big "if") God does not exist, then we all have nothing to worry about.

But what if you're wrong, Helix? What if you die tonight and you come face to face with God Himself? Then what's going to happen to you?

Also, you never did answer my question: Why aren't you willing to take the chance and ask God to reveal Himself to you? Are you afraid that you'll be proven wrong?

[tuppence]

Helix, I did not say that from my own knowledge, or even because of anything in the Bible. I said that because of the first hand knowledge of someone who was born into Hinduism, was the son of an avatar and worshiped as a divinity himself, even as a child. He is a Christian now. He would know, if anyone would, the identity of the Hindu gods.

His story is worth reading:
http://www.leaderu.com/wri/pages/maharaj.html

you can buy it here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 8?v=glance

[gerani]

"Helix, I did not say that from my own knowledge, or even because of anything in the Bible. I said that because of the first hand knowledge of someone who was born into Hinduism, was the son of an avatar and worshiped as a divinity himself, even as a child. He is a Christian now. He would know, if anyone would, the identity of the Hindu gods. "

hahaha! thats the funniest site ive ever visited. a guy who loves attention and being bowed to like a grand king now finds hinduism unfulfilling? its his pompous, flaunting lifestyle.

i used to have christian ideas. i was sufferng and i was tormented. i gradually that it wasnt the way for me. perhaps jesus was the way for the rabi and i accept that. maybe he was fooled into thinking that any way besides christianity was a way into darkness.

i have nothing more to say...

[Helix]

To be fair, if (and that's a big "if") God does not exist, then we all have nothing to worry about.

But what if you're wrong, Helix? What if you die tonight and you come face to face with God Himself? Then what's going to happen to you?

Ah, you are talking about Pascal’s Wager? If you believe in god and he does not exist, there is no harm done, and if you believe in him and he DOES exist you go to heaven...

I think that if anyone ever chooses a religion, it should be because they are convinced that it is true, and not out of fear for what will happen if you DON'T believe.

Also, you never did answer my question: Why aren't you willing to take the chance and ask God to reveal Himself to you? Are you afraid that you'll be proven wrong?

I just asked him to reveal himself. I haven't seen or heared or felt anything. What kind of signs can I expect?

[tuppence]

i have nothing more to say...

I'm grateful.

[tuppence]

I think that if anyone ever chooses a religion, it should be because they are convinced that it is true, and not out of fear for what will happen if you DON'T believe.

I agree with you, Helix. But I have a question for you, too -- how do YOU know what is true and what isn't? What is your plumb line by which you judge?

[LindaBee2]

Helix, He will reveal Himself to you in His own time and way. Perhaps He'll reveal Himself to you visually, or perhaps you'll hear a voice that is unmistakably His. Sometimes, He even reveals Himself through circumstances that are unexplainable otherwise. If He doesn't reveal Himself to you when you want Him to, then keep asking. Remember to be sincere. Seek Him with a sincere heart, and all will be revealed in its proper time and place. When He does reveal Himself to you, you will know exactly who He is. Just give Him time. I'll be praying -- along with my brothers and sisters in Christ, I would hope -- that God will reveal Himself to you. You just need to remember to open your heart and mind to the possibility, and to avoid all semblance of arrogance and disrespect.

Speaking of arrogance, I'd like to explain my comment. The reason I said that you are being arrogant is because you tend to talk down on us because of our faith in God and the power of prayer. You've written off what we believe in as mythology, when you won't even admit that there's even the slightest chance that you could be wrong. Your words and attitude testify to your arrogance, Helix. I'm tired of you looking down on us because we believe what you cannot: That God is real and that He created the universe.

Have you visited my website and read my testimony? That should be enough evidence to support the evidence of God's existence. I'm a changed person, and I didn't go through the transformation by my own will. It's because of the fact that the Holy Spirit has been cleansing me since the day of my spiritual rebirth. (Which took place a year ago, by the way. Seems a lot longer, actually. LOL)

[Helix]

I have a question for you, too -- how do YOU know what is true and what isn't? What is your plumb line by which you judge?

I don't know for 100% that I am right. I don't think ANYONE should ever make such a claim.

I judge the world around me with a critical look. Why do you think I am reading up on evolution and psychology? I want to read their arguments and then judge whether or not I think they make sense. Thus far I have found more evidence that supports evolution that the biblical stories... I don't automatically ignore creationists claims. Not at all, I have been doing quite some reading on True.Origin for example.

The 'problem' is that sooner or later discussion about the bible tend to move away from the scientific and towards 'prepared speeches' about the bible. I hear people say things like 'look in your heart and you will find the truth' and more - sorry to say- rhetorical nonsense: Whenever someone says something like that, I know they didn't make that up themselves, they are repeating what others have been telling them. I hear the words of preachers and quotes from the bible, but no real information. If I had a nickle for evey religious one-liner or catch phrase I'd be rich!

A 'born-again christian' gave me a flyer once on the street and told me his story: He had been doing drugs and was wasting his life. And then he discovered the 'good book'. I love a good discussion now and then and I tried to hear from him what convinced him to join that religion. After 15 minutes he hadn't answered any question, but kept referring to the good book with all the answers...
Most christians - and sorry if this is a bit harsh - are simply repeating things they have been hearing from a very young age OR what they have been told after their 'miraculous' conversion to the lord.

I wouldn't be surprised if everyone of you had some traumatic experience that led you to believe. Well, sorry to hear it -and I mean that, I don't wish people the go through painful experiences- but that is just not enough for me to start believing. Most of all because it an emotional choice and not one based on facts.

---------
And talking about arrogance, I think there is nothing more arrogant than starting forums about 'gay people being sinners'. Doesn't the USA have laws to protect minorities from such discrimination? Telling young people not to do this, not to do that. Whenever I show friends this forum first they laugh and are then surprised and even angry over the lack of freedom and respect that is displayed here. How can you pretend to love people (god is love, right?) and at the same time discriminate them.

Now I'll let gay people defend themselves, but I just wanted to have said it. Do you really think you are doing young boys and girls a favour by stating that masturbation will get them a one-way ticket to hell where they will burn for all eternity? And where does the arrogance come from to indoctrinate people this way without EVER presenting ANY evidence for this? Look at that thread I started about 'souls, heaven hell etc.' What is the best information anyone can give me? 'Souls are made of spititual matter.' Pffft. You can't just make a new type of matter up to fit the stories...

[(Omega)]

Dear Helix,

You must understand that every Christian at one point in time did not know the Truth and some did not even believe in a God!

The Truth must start with you taking the first action, and that is wlling to ask the Truth into your heart. Christ came to reveal the Truth about God and to make the mysteries of God known unto man. A simple prayer is all that it takes for one to begin to develop and understanding of the Truth, then that truth that is now sown within you begins to reap knowledge that was at one point in time musiunderstood or unknown.

I'm sure that you know of the popular adage that "The Truth shall set you free!" This is from Jesus Himself who is the very Word of God incarnate. You may not believe me or don't have to but I can assure you one thing which no atheist nor theologian nor anyone for that matter can take from me, and that is The Absolute Truth. Not just a mere notion, but it is Truth that has set me free. You will know the Absolute Truth when your search ends, it begins with Christ and ends with Christ! There is a reason why there lies deep within the heart of man a void that needs to be filled my friend. Don't just open your mind Helix, (open) your heart!

John 8:32 - And ye shall (know) the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

GOD BLESS!

[LindaBee2]

Helix, I'm glad to know that at least some part of you is searching for God. That's encouraging. Some people don't even go that far. Hopefully, you will come to accept the fact that yes, He does exist.

Anyway, back on topic: Why on Earth would the ACLU assume that just because someone has stated that the evolution theory is just that -- a theory -- then religion is being promoted? Would they rather have the sticker spread the lie, that evolution is a proven fact? You don't have to be a religious person to believe that the evolution theory is invalid.

Then again, seeing as the ACLU doesn't exactly stand for morality, I can see why they would find it easy to support lying.

[On My Way]

Hello Helix

And talking about arrogance, I think there is nothing more arrogant than starting forums about 'gay people being sinners'. Doesn't the USA have laws to protect minorities from such discrimination? Telling young people not to do this, not to do that. Whenever I show friends this forum first they laugh and are then surprised and even angry over the lack of freedom and respect that is displayed here. How can you pretend to love people (god is love, right?) and at the same time discriminate them.

Lets examine this statement in a scientifilictus way OK

And talking about arrogance, I think there is nothing more arrogant than starting forums about 'gay people being sinners'.

Have you read the threads?
Fact #1 This is a Christian website,
Is this correct that this is a fact?

Fact #2 Sin is a factor in Christianity corrrect?

Would you call it a fact that based on the threads you have read that people who are gay are still loved by God, but the act of Homosexuality in Christianity is a sin? The act of homosexuality containing sex?
Lets call that one fact #3

Doesn't the USA have laws to protect minorities from such discrimination?

Where is the discrimination? Please provide facts? Not pithy comments.
And I would have to say no the US laws do not apply to your statement
Fact #4 We enjoy freedom of speach that is a law
Fact #5 we have a sepration of church and state (I doubt the ACLU would protect that though in this case)

Telling young people not to do this, not to do that.

They are hear looking for Christian Guidence are they not?

Whenever I show friends this forum first they laugh and are then surprised and even angry over the lack of freedom and respect that is displayed here.

Example Please.

Have you not had creative control over your posts? Freedom to Post whatever you want?
The above we call Fact #6

How can you pretend to love people (god is love, right?) and at the same time discriminate them.

Discriminate is a big word Please use it in an example or in the form of a sentence.
Fact #7 People come here to look for answers and they might not always get the ones they are looking for but they get them.

Now based on your Scientifilicical mind would you not agree that the facts I presented to you conclude that your statement is in error?

Yeah I know I sound a bit cocky but it is all in good spirits

[LindaBee2]

Fact #5 we have a sepration of church and state (I doubt the ACLU would protect that though in this case)

Yeah. And the "wall of separation between Church and State" was constructed to keep the government out of religion, not religion out of the government. The First Amendment merely states that the government cannot force its citizens to become part of whatever religion it (the government) chooses. The government cannot interfere with the citizens' right to worship whatever deity they want, whenever they want, and however they want, so long as the worshipping process does not bring harm to others. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say, "Those crazy Christians can't put up a cross on public property" or "You can't mention God in the Pledge." Nope. It just means exactly what it says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

I wonder how putting up a nativity scene during the Christmas season -- which, in case the ACLU has forgotten, is a holiday that is supposed to celebrate the birth of the very Man who came to save us all -- is an "establishment of religion." I never have understood that.

And a big kudos to you, OMW!!! A better response, I could not come up with.

The fact is, Helix, this is a Christian message board. Why are you so surprised that we do not believe that the homosexual lifestyle is an acceptable alternative? Why are you startled every time you read that we believe said lifestyle is a sin? And if you're uncomfortable with the topics we discuss on this message board and what we stand for, then you're free to either leave or to argue your points in a mature, non-arrogant, and thoughtful way.

[gerani]

"The First Amendment merely states that the government cannot force its citizens to become part of whatever religion it (the government) chooses. The government cannot interfere with the citizens' right to worship whatever deity they want, whenever they want, and however they want, so long as the worshipping process does not bring harm to others. Nowhere in the Constitututionn does it say, "Those crazy Christians can't put up a cross on public property" or "You can't mention God in the Pledge." Nope. It just means exactly what it says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." ""

and i have the right by the first amendment to have gay marriage because the God does not object to it. its my belief. i still dont understand how you dont want it, even though it goes against your version of God, it doesnt affect you. its still my right to practice gay marriage.

[tuppence]

A couple of you are making valiant efforts to keep this on topic. Please stop the discussion of homosexuality so I don't have to lock this thread.

Thanks.

Helix -- it seems you are simply depending on your own senses to determine what is truth and what is not. That is pretty shakey. Our senses would tell us the sun rises and sets rather than the earth spinning on its axis. Our senses, scientifically, have led us down a myriad of wrong paths through the years and even though science is 'self-correcting', the fact is that each scientist at any given time really believes he knows the truth about his area of expertise. And many of them disagree!

So without an outside source for determining what is truth, or at least the parameters within whch the truth lies, we are at the mercy of opinions and our own extremely limited knowledge.

It's a hard thing to base your entire life on, don't you think?

[gerani]

then please PM with your replies.

[LindaBee2]

then please PM with your replies.

We don't have to, gerani. We've already discussed why we believe the homosexual lifestyle is a sin. The topic has been discussed, and I don't feel that we have to talk about it any longer.

Homosexuality discussion = ended.

Now, can we get back to the topic of this thread?