Islam respects women!

[Loki]

I'll let Islam do the talking... judge for yourself.

- "No man shall be questioned for beating his wife." [Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215]
- Women are inferior, and should obey men, if they don't you can beat them [4.34]
- Women have fewer rights concerning divorce [2:28]
- Muslim men may marry up to four women [4:3]
- A man's inheritance should be a portion of two females [4:11]
- Your wives are a tilth (a piece of farmland) to you [2:223]
- Beautiful virgins await Muslim men in Paradise for their sensual gratification [55:56]
- Just beat it:
Iyas-b-Abdullah reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "Don't beat the maids of Allah." Then Omar came to Muhammed and said, "Women have become daring against their husbands." So Muhammed allowed them to beat them. Attested by Abu Daud. The hadith then tells that women began to lay siege on Muhammed to mediate their beatings [Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 212 (65)]
- If the wife knows her husband's guest is his friend, she has to entertain him in bed, and remember, this is the way to Paradise for the Muslim woman.
Ja`ber-b-Abdullah reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "...Verily, you have married (wives) with trust in Allah. You have got the right over them that they entertain nobody to your bed which you dislike. If they do this, give them a beating..." [Al Hadis, Vol 1, p. 217 (76)]
- Rape of pagan female captives is allowed. [Muslim., Book 008, Number 3371]
- Women are intellectual and spiritual inferior to men [Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301]
- Evil omen is in women [Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30]
- A woman who is raped must proof this fact to avoid lashing? [Malik, Book 41, Number 41.4.16a]
- Life of a woman is worth half of that of a man [Malik, Book 43, Number 43.6.4b]
- Abu Sayeed al-Khodri reported that Muhammed was talking to a group of women when he said, "... I see the majority of you will go to Hell."
The women asked why, to which Muhammed responded, "You often curse and are ungrateful to your companions." He then told them they had a basic defect in their religion, to which they responded, "How?" Muhammed answered, "Is not the attestation (knowledge and witness) of a women only worth half of a man's? And that is on account of her short intelligence." [Al-Hadis, Vol. 3, p. 137]
- "A woman is like a private part (sex organ). When she goes out (walking) the devil casts a glance at her (in lust)" Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 692

If this is respecting women, then Islam is a crying shame.

[Loki]

no muslim women in here? who could comment on this?

[Kai Hagbard]

The reference on Al Hadis, vol 1, p.217 sounds unbelievable

Ja`ber-b-Abdullah reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "...Verily, you have married (wives) with trust in Allah. You have got the right over them that they entertain nobody to your bed which you dislike. If they do this, give them a beating..." [Al Hadis, Vol 1, p. 217 (76)]

I have never come accross this saying before. Are you sure, that this particular saying is not taken out of context? Or perhaps it is unreliable?
Could you please elaborate a bit more on this?

Be blessed

Kai

[Loki]

(Hadith's don't have contexts)

in Afghanistan, this was (or still is) practised.
I saw on a news analysis of it's culture (during the afghan war)
a casual phone conversation on how a muslim called another muslim to say that he is gonna sleep with his wife, and that he could sleep with his...

and they considered this as an honor that another man (wich they like) would want to sleep with their wife.

greetz,

Loki

[H2O]

I'll let Islam do the talking... judge for yourself.

- "No man shall be questioned for beating his wife." [Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215]

The reference on Al Hadis, vol 1, p.217 sounds unbelievable

Ja`ber-b-Abdullah reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "...Verily, you have married (wives) with trust in Allah. You have got the right over them that they entertain nobody to your bed which you dislike. If they do this, give them a beating..." [Al Hadis, Vol 1, p. 217 (76)]

I have never come accross this saying before. Are you sure, that this particular saying is not taken out of context? Or perhaps it is unreliable?
Could you please elaborate a bit more on this?

Be blessed

(Hadith's don't have contexts)

in Afghanistan, this was (or still is) practised.
I saw on a news analysis of it's culture (during the afghan war)
a casual phone conversation on how a muslim called another muslim to say that he is gonna sleep with his wife, and that he could sleep with his...

and they considered this as an honor that another man (wich they like) would want to sleep with their wife.

greetz,

Maybe you(Loki) lack in reading comprehension.

You introduced "No man shall be questioned for beating his wife" your Christian companion Quoted the hadith which explains a condition that you failed to mention that explains the context.

And now you come up with some *^&%@ garbage about Afghanistan when that country, just like your Christian countries, apply cultural aspect to dictate their relgion.

Now, I dont have alhadith available to go into the Arabic, but I would agree that the translation infers that if a woman's husband likes someone(?) it is ok for a woman to invite someone(?) to her bed. Hmm, dont soo called Christian couples practice this in the West ? When last did you see Jerry Springer show ? .

Now here is where you reading comprehnsion fails then does a boom bang off the wall perverted conception trick.

The word used is "nobody" which can be a female or male or only a male or female or a thing or it . you took it to mean a "male" when in fact it could be a female. There is no gender specified.

If the word "nobody" refering to "someone" is refering to "a male" then the hadith would contradict Quran and other Hadith and then would be false because the rule of punishment for a woman/man commiting adultry is 100 Lashes or Death by stoning regardless if her husband likes it or not.

Also if the word "nobody" refering to "someone" is refering to "a female" then this would be an act of lesbanism, punishable to life in prison unless she changes her way, which would contradict the Quran directly on this matter.

However if a man finds his wife commiting such disloyal act with another woman and does not bring her to court with this matter then he is to follow the three steps mentioned in Surah 4:34 if she does not desist that you also misrepresented and took out of context.

The fact of the matter under Quranic law, even if the man likes it, would contradict Quran, and would deem the hadith FALSE based on the translation with out confirmation from the Arabic. All together any act of homosexuality is prohibited and punishable by Shariah law and would make such a man subject to punishment that promotes or allows it.

- Women are inferior, and should obey men, if they don't you can beat them [4.34]

You must be are getting this from Translators such as Abdullah Yusuf Ali whom have interpreted that verse in his cultral perspective being he is from Pakistan.

Lets look at somemore translation:

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Muhsin: Men are the protectors and maintainers of
women, because Allah has made one of them to
excel the other, and because they spend (to
support them) from their means. Therefore the
righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah
and to their husbands), and guard in the
husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard
(e.g. their chastity, their husband's property,
etc.). As to those women on whose part you see
ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next),
refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them
(lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to
obedience, seek not against them means (of
annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most
Great.

Maududi: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has made one of them excel over the other, and because they spend out of their possessions (to support them). Thus righteous women are obedient and guard the rights of men in their absence under Allah’s protection. As for women of whom you fear rebellion, admonish them, and remain apart from them in beds, and beat them. Then if they obey you, do not seek ways to harm them. Allah is Exalted. Great.

Of course for you would never understand who "them" is refering to except what is dictated to you by your Christian teachers.

The word "them" is translated from the plural (not dual)masculine pronoun "hum", and "other" or "another" is translated from the masculine pronoun "ba'ad" in the Arabic text.

The feminine gender to refer to women is not included. The verse is refering to "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them (men) excel over other(men)..". Now what does it mean by favoring or excelling other men over others ? it is clear in the next clause about wealth "...and because they(men whom Allah has favored or excelled over other men in wealth) spend out of their possessions (to support them~women)."

It is also to a reality that some women are richer than some men whom have not been favored as other men to possess such wealth. This verse has nothing to do with superiority of men over women.

- Women are inferior, and should obey men, if they don't you can beat them [4.34]

As to your "obey" misunderstanding we will collect all the words the translators have used to translate the Arabic word "qaanitaat"

1) devoutly obedient

2) obedient

3) obedient

4) devoutly obedient

5) obedient

The Arabic word "qaanitaat" means both "devout and obedient".

If you as a man spend your money to take care of your wife, cloth her feed her and maintain for her wouldnt you want her to be devout and adhere to you ? Or are you a bunch of Chritian whimps that let your western Christian women boss you around, tell you what to do , take your money, and then still cheat behind your backs sleeping with some other dude cause you dont make her happy ?

- Women are inferior, and should obey men, if they don't you can beat them [4.34]

Your wrong. First the wife must do the oposite of "qaanitaat" which is "nushooz" translated by the above translators as:

1) disloyalty and ill-conduct

2) rebellion

3) desertion

4) ill-conduct

5) rebellion

The word is also used in the Quran with a man being "nushooz" towards his wife:

004:128
YUSUFALI: If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

PICKTHAL: If a woman feareth ill treatment from her husband, or desertion, it is no sin for them twain if they make terms of peace between themselves. Peace is better. But greed hath been made present in the minds (of men). If ye do good and keep from evil, lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.

SHAKIR: And if a woman fears ill usage or desertion on the part of her husband, there is no blame on them, if they effect a reconciliation between them, and reconciliation is better, and avarice has been made to be present in the (people's) minds; and if you do good (to others) and guard (against evil), then surely Allah is aware of what you do.

Muhsin: And if a woman fears cruelty or desertion on
her husband's part, there is no sin on them both
if they make terms of peace between themselves;
and making peace is better. And human inner-
selves are swayed by greed. But if you do good
and keep away from evil, verily, Allah is Ever
Well-Acquainted with what you do.

Muadudi: If a woman fears either ill-treatment, or aversion from her husband it is not wrong for the husband and wife to bring about reconciliation among themselves (by compromising on their rights), for settlement is better. Man’s should is always prone to selfishness, but if you do good and are God-fearing, then surely Allah’s is aware of the things you do.

Now the famous translators give expound more on the significance of the word "nushooz" as:

1) cruelty or desertion

2) ill treatment

3) desertion

4) cruelty or desertion

5) ill-treatment, or aversion

So now we have here the full meaning of the word "nushooz" which is the antonym of "qaatnaat".

If a man fears his wife of being "nushooz" towards him he is to do the following steps

1) They are to be admonished

(if they continue)

2) Stop sleeping with them

(if they continue)

3) Hit them

To hit or strike your wife is wrong unless she commets the above acts against her husband which is the LAST remedy.

The translators used "beat" translated from the imperitive "idhrib" which denotes a single strike. It does not denote the repetitive action in which the word "beat" conveys.

First of all the type of hit or strike must not harm her .

"...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231)"

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

Also it is PROHIBITED to hit a woman under such a condition on the limbs of her body or face :

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

Narrated Salim: "....Umar said: 'The Prophet forbade beating on the face.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Hunting, Slaughtering, Volume 7, Book 67, Number 449)"

Narrated AbuHurayrah: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you inflicts a beating, he should avoid striking the face. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38, Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud), Number 4478)"

So what part of her body can one hit that is not her face or will bring harm to her body ? Only one place where the most fat is at, THE REAR END !


Anyhow I wish I could finish up on your long taken out of context and misrepresentation of the Islam, but it time for me to get back to my PS2

[Believer]

If Islam claims there's equality among men and women, why can't a woman have up to 4 husbands? Why polygamy is sexist.

[H2O]

Lets see, from since the beging when man was created after Adam G-D had no problem with it, just about all his prophets before Jesus had multiple wives, so why didnt G-D allow women to have more that one husband ?

Lets look at nature, we see on male with multiple females. Let looks at a prime example, the Lion and the Apes etc there is always one male with multiple females. It is unusal for a female to share her self with another male unless the male abandons her.

Lets look at another reason. Scinetifically a female is more prone to transmit deseases than a man. A man can have sex with multiple females who stay with that one man. But now a female who has sex with more than one man those men will adventually catch something after a period of time.

Maybe if you study the female biological system compared to a man's maybe you can understand this. Its all about chemestry.

Here is another thing. It is in the NATURE of a man to be poligamous wereas a female is more monogamous.

Come on now you dont know this ? You live in a country were men are nortorious for pologamous acts in and out of wedlock.

And believer a woman under critical analysis of Islamic law has more rights than a man. And please before you answer this dont go by what some country does to their women which is not Islamic but most of the time based on cultural and tribal traditional custom.

[Kai Hagbard]

Utter rubbish H2O
The Islamic concept on women is built on nothing but lust and suppression.

H2O wrote:

Lets look at nature, we see on male with multiple females. Let looks at a prime example, the Lion and the Apes etc there is always one male with multiple females. It is unusal for a female to share her self with another male unless the male abandons her.

In other words man is to be likened to the animals. Well I am not surprise, your idea simply explains the animal like attitude in Islam concering women, just look at the rape of female captives and slaves. Dont tell me you believe in evolution as well.

H20 wrote:

Lets look at another reason. Scinetifically a female is more prone to transmit deseases than a man. A man can have sex with multiple females who stay with that one man. But now a female who has sex with more than one man those men will adventually catch something after a period of time.

This is rubbish, the reason why males have dominated females sexually through out the centuries, is not due to sexual deseases, but lust.

H2O wrote:

Maybe if you study the female biological system compared to a man's maybe you can understand this. Its all about chemestry.

No, H2O, it is not about chemestry, its about sin, make use of the right word.

Lets, thus take this matter from a different angle. A women is able to experience several multiple orgasms a day, while a man is capable only to engage in sexual intercourse and reach a climax once in a day.
Thus if we are going to think biologically, the opposite should be true, a women should have access to four men.

Otherwise she is wait in desire for every fourth night, since her husband biologically is able, only to satisfy her when the other three have had their turn, that is a far we can get biologically.

And from this we can even question whether polygamy is ethically correct.

[Kai Hagbard]

H2O wrote:

And now you come up with some *^&%@ garbage about Afghanistan when that country, just like your Christian countries, apply cultural aspect to dictate their relgion.

Now, I dont have alhadith available to go into the Arabic, but I would agree that the translation infers that if a woman's husband likes someone(?) it is ok for a woman to invite someone(?) to her bed. Hmm, dont soo called Christian couples practice this in the West ? When last did you see Jerry Springer show ?

I think you have seriously misunderstood the concept and nature of Christianity. First of all, there is no mention or concept in the New Testament on Christian countries, Christianity is a spiritual religion, with an emphasis on mission, conversion and lifestyle, there is no mention of Christian politic, invasion or suppression. The historical distortion of this concept in the fourth century, when imperial Christology was instituted finds no origin in the Bible.
Concerning, the matter of culture, the Bible does not propose any specific culture, however, holy and moral lifestyle is fundamental. Looking at Paul’s letter there is the issue of contextualisation, which enables a Christian to live like a Jew, among Jews and as free from the law among Gentiles (1 Cor.9: 19-23), otherwise living according to God’s standard is always an obligation.
It’s a fact that nominal Christianity (being Christian only by name) is the greatest enemy of Christianity, and this category is condemned by the New Testament Scriptures (2 Tim.3: 1-5).
Considering your view that every Western country is Christian and every American who attends the Jerry Springer show a Christian as well, simply reveals incredible ignorance about the nature of the Christian religion.
Jesus states it clearly, that standard is a significant factor for those who will escape hell fire (Matthew 7: 21-23) (25: 31-46). A true Christian is a follower of Jesus, in other words he will produce fruits of holiness and he will persevere to the end (Matt.13: 1-23). As James states: our works show our faith (Jam.2: 18-19), in the same way as Jesus stated: a false prophet will be recognized by his fruits (Matt.7: 15-20), rape of female slaves as in case of Muhammad, does certainly not fit the standard found within the Christian religion. What I mean is: statements prove nothing, a Christian who lives a double standard has denied his faith (2 Tim.3: 5) (Tit.1: 16). Thus if Christians join the Jerry Springer show who have engaged in exchanging wives or husbands, these according to Scripture would not be accepted or recognized as followers of Jesus, in other words Christians.
Remember this is a core element of Christianity, sinful living and practice disproves your religion, the New Testament calls any such person a liar: “If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth”(1 John 1: 6), why? The apostle John continues: “No-one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No-one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him”(1 John 2: 6).
Notice, that John, who is an apostle, does not even suggest that these people have lost their faith, he rather clarifies that these individuals were never of the faith. According to this, how many Americans are Christians?

Can we truly say that USA is a Christian nation? How about Europe? If you live in Europe you quickly realize that most people are or either Atheists or Gnostics.
Of those who call themselves Christians, most would be traditional, and often nominal. Keep in your mind as well, that even those who advocate universalism (a more Hindu concept), such as the famous John Hix would claim to be a Christian. I even have hard-core atheists in my extended family who funny enough use the title Christian in case an Asian Hindu or Muslim asks them about their faith.
As the New Testament teaches the only way to recognize a true Christian is by observing the fruits of change and transformation.

H2O writes:

Maybe you(Loki) lack in reading comprehension. You introduced "No man shall be questioned for beating his wife" your Christian companion Quoted the hadith which explains a condition that you failed to mention that explains the context. And now you come up with some *^&%@ garbage about Afghanistan when that country, just like your Christian countries, apply cultural aspect to dictate their relgion. Now, I dont have alhadith available to go into the Arabic, but I would agree that the translation infers that if a woman's husband likes someone(?) it is ok for a woman to invite someone(?) to her bed. Hmm, dont soo called Christian couples practice this in the West ? When last did you see Jerry Springer show ?

Kai responds:

In other words you agree that this particular Hadith refers to sexual practice, or what?

H2O continues:

[

b]The word used is "nobody" which can be a female or male or only a male or female or a thing or it . you took it to mean a "male" when in fact it could be a female. There is no gender specified.[/b]

Kai responds:

Then, in fact you are saying, that the particular hadith refers to sexual engagement between a husband’s wife with a male husband’s friend, a female, an animal or a thing.Anyway you did not answer the real question, say, the particular Hadith was uttered by Muhammad, it still does not prohit a women to sleep, with a man, female or thing, say the husband does not accept his, her’s or its friendship.The Hadith clearly seems to say, that a women should not entertain anyone in the bed, whom the husband dislikes (dislikes is the matter her), then the opposite must be true, who is the one who the husband likes. Since the hushand has a right over her body, he will have his say over the matter, otherwise she will be beaten. I would say: not exactly a standard of God in any way or direction.

H2O continues:

If the word "nobody" refering to "someone" is refering to "a male" then the hadith would contradict Quran and other Hadith and then would be false because the rule of punishment for a woman/man commiting adultry is 100 Lashes or Death by stoning regardless if her husband likes it or not. Also if the word "nobody" refering to "someone" is refering to "a female" then this would be an act of lesbanism, punishable to life in prison unless she changes her way, which would contradict the Quran directly on this matter. However if a man finds his wife commiting such disloyal act with another woman and does not bring her to court with this matter then he is to follow the three steps mentioned in Surah 4:34 if she does not desist that you also misrepresented and took out of context.

Kai responds:

In other words you agree that this particular Hadith refers to sexual practice, or what?

H2O continues:

The word used is "nobody" which can be a female or male or only a male or female or a thing or it . you took it to mean a "male" when in fact it could be a female. There is no gender specified.

Kai responds:

Then, in fact you are saying, that the particular hadith refers to sexual engagement between a husband’s wife with a male husband’s friend, a female, an animal or a thing.Anyway you did not answer the real question, say, the particular Hadith was uttered by Muhammad, it still does not prohit a women to sleep, with a man, female or thing, say the husband does not accept his, her’s or its friendship.The Hadith clearly seems to say, that a women should not entertain anyone in the bed, whom the husband dislikes (dislikes is the matter her), then the opposite must be true, who is the one who the husband likes. Since the hushand has a right over her body, he will have his say over the matter, otherwise she will be beaten. I would say: not exactly a standard of God in any way or direction.

H2O continues:

If the word "nobody" refering to "someone" is refering to "a male" then the hadith would contradict Quran and other Hadith and then would be false because the rule of punishment for a woman/man commiting adultry is 100 Lashes or Death by stoning regardless if her husband likes it or not. Also if the word "nobody" refering to "someone" is refering to "a female" then this would be an act of lesbanism, punishable to life in prison unless she changes her way, which would contradict the Quran directly on this matter. However if a man finds his wife commiting such disloyal act with another woman and does not bring her to court with this matter then he is to follow the three steps mentioned in Surah 4:34 if she does not desist that you also misrepresented and took out of context.

Kai responds:

Well possibly you are correct, this particular Hadith does contradict the Quran, that however, does not deny the fact that Muhammad atleast at one point may have allowed this practice.

Concerning a WOMENS INFERIORITY and WIFE BEATING H2O attempts to explain away the matter (I will not quote the whole text of H2O, in case you want to make an assessment look it up yourself, but I will make a few points):


H2O writes:

Of course for you would never understand who "them" is refering to except what is dictated to you by your Christian teachers. The word "them" is translated from the plural (not dual)masculine pronoun "hum", and "other" or "another" is translated from the masculine pronoun "ba'ad" in the Arabic text. The feminine gender to refer to women is not included. The verse is refering to "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them (men) excel over other(men)..". Now what does it mean by favoring or excelling other men over others ? it is clear in the next clause about wealth "...and because they(men whom Allah has favored or excelled over other men in wealth) spend out of their possessions (to support them~women)." It is also to a reality that some women are richer than some men whom have not been favored as other men to possess such wealth. This verse has nothing to do with superiority of men over women.

H2O wrote:

The Arabic word "qaanitaat" means both "devout and obedient". If you as a man spend your money to take care of your wife, cloth her feed her and maintain for her wouldnt you want her to be devout and adhere to you ? Or are you a bunch of Chritian whimps that let your western Christian women boss you around, tell you what to do , take your money, and then still cheat behind your backs sleeping with some other dude cause you dont make her happy ?

Kai responds:

In other words, Loki was correct, unless we subdue our wives we risk a internal rebellion. I have a few points to criticise here.

First of all, I doubt you are married H2O (correct me if you want). If devotion from your wife, is a demand for a man’s shopping and feeding, then you marriage is simply built upon demanded exptance, in other words If I do this, I expect you to do that.

You even ridicule Christian men who recognise that women are not inferior, that women do not need to be controlled or bought with romantic merit; if this is Islam, then your religion falls short.

Secondly, you need to read our Scripture to see that in case of a Christian couple, there is no need to control a wife or subdue her. A man’s position, even though being the head of his household, builds on love and sacrifice, rather than a means to subdue your wife or keep her blinded ingnorant within a house, behind a merit of bought things.

Actually, H2O, what you are stating here, is both insane and sick to be straight forward honest. I trust my wife as she trusts me, we follow the Christian standards, and I can tell you that there is no need for me to subdue her (even though I admit I could be a bit more romantic at times) or buy her with things or basic needs.

You seem to clarify that in Islam, males are not to trust women, a soon you seem to indicate that before you know they sleep around to find more sexual satisfication (you seem to consider women as animals).

I find this attitude to lower a women’s status down, and confirms effectively that a women in the view of Islam is inferior. In other words unless she is subdued, she engages in animal like habits (that is actual what you are stating).

On the other hand, according to Islam, men are allowed to rape female marry up to four wives, engage in sex with female slaves, perform muta marriages, reward with up to seventy womens when they reached paradise.

Looking at the full picture, it seems more like a opposite reality, that rather than keeping your wife in a leash (did I spell this correctly), or a chain, you should consider tying up yourself. Seems like you leave us no choice be a wimp or be a sexual animal.

This is exactly where transformation comes in, the sign and evidence of life, which proves who you really are. If your Muslim ladies are not able to live a godly life without being subdued, blinded and keept ignorant, there is very little reason to believe that Islam offers any actual transformation in a women life, in that case the only way to obedience is the subduing force of her husband, not a change of her inner life.

In case of a man, he is permitted in raping captives and slaves, in one particular point of Islamic history he was allowed even to engage in temporary marriage, actually prostitution.

Thus from the nature and origin of Islam, we can assess that the ungodly elements, which a women is to abstain from are fully permissable for a male.

[Believer]

Lets look at nature, we see on male with multiple females. Let looks at a prime example, the Lion and the Apes etc there is always one male with multiple females. It is unusal for a female to share her self with another male unless the male abandons her.

Many animals take only one mate for life.
God expects us to be like this.
A man cannot be fully a man without a woman, and a woman cannot fully be a woman without a man. This union is what marriage is.
A marriage is a completion of what it means to be human.
This is the Law God gave to Adam, and Jesus told us in the Gospels.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

@ H20

Seems like every argument your make is in exact contradiction to the majority of muslim society today..

I guess all the documentations on suadi arabia, jordan, egypt, iran, syria, libya, uae, and iraq are all lies.

It must be that pesky USA, making all those arab doucumentary directors lie.

You should watch a documentary called "1slam and the middle east". Produce and directed by a muslim women.

Peace and Godspeed my brothers.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Oh thats right H20...

You live in the good ole US of A. Where no muslim man could treat a women the way they do in the middle east.

You must live by that ultra liberal concept, "if it dont happen where I live, it must not happen at all".

Peace and Godspeed my brothers.

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

Oops, almost forgot.

I read a survey conducted on ex-muslims from the USA. Most of them can be found on ex-muslim forums.

100% of those American citizens polled, said that their reason for converting to muslim had nothing to do with a11ah or GOD, or the struggle of muslims in the middle east.

It had soley to do with the way in which women treated them in their adolecent life. It was kind of a way to "get back" at those who treated them badly.

I mean, lets face it H20. These guys, (maybe you) were made fun of by girls in school, and never were asked to prom.

Now, by converting to muslim, a11ah permits you having 4 wives and treating them all like dogs. And Wow, if you die for a11ah, you can have 72 virgin boys and girls.

Come back to Jesus my brother
Peace and Godspeed to you all.

[shhhhhhhhhhhhh]

But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

Jesus considered a divorced woman as an adulteress and anyone who marry a divorced woman is a fornicator.
Is your mom one of these bitches??

I wonder how a divorced woman or a divorcedyoung girl who were divorced because things didn't go well would feel when she hear that her savior calls her a whore????

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. [Deuteronomy 22:28]
If you were raped then you are obliged to marry the person who raped you!!!

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." [1 Timothy 2:11-14]
Now the woman is responsible for deceiving Adam. I think that girls here are not too happy!!

"....and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss" [Ecclesiasticus 22:3, the Catholic Bible]

while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all". [Ecclesiastics 7:26-28 the Catholic Bible]

Women are inferior, and should obey men, if they don't you can beat them [4.34]

As for those women on whose part ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (idribou) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them. [The Noble Qur'an 4:34].

A number of sholars has wrongfully explained the word "idribou" as "to beat".

The verb "daraba" in arabic language has dozens of meanings.
In the Qur'an, at least 10 meaning of this verb were mentioned:

To travel as in 4:101
To strike as in 2:60,
To beat as in 8:50
To set up as in 43:58; 57:13
To give examples as in 14:24
To take away or to ignore as in 43:5
To condemn as in 2:61
To seal a in 18:11
To cover as in 24:31
To explain as in 13:17

In Arabic, "daraba" also mean to separate, to part .

So the correct meaning of this verse is:
As for those women on whose part ye fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) separate from them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

This is obvious when we read in the verse that follow:

And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and the wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever knower, Aware.

And which gives further weight to this meaning:
A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold Together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. [2:229].

So the error is not the Noble Qur'an but the stoned retarted head of some people who call themselves Sheikhs.

Muslim men may marry up to four women [4:3]

check polygamy in the New Testament here:
http://al-jazeerah.net/ntpoly.htm

And the endless polygamists in the Bible:
http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/

A man's inheritance should be a portion of two females [4:11]

You should read your savior advice to pull the piece of wood from your eye first:
If a father dies and leaves $1,000,000 to a family of 1 boy, 2 girls and a widow wife. According to the Old Testament, only the boy inherits all, and the two daughters and the widow wife must live under the son's laws and mercy according to (Numbers 27:1-11) in the Old Testament. This law was put by Jesus himself since Jesus is GOD according to the Christians belief.

- "No man shall be questioned for beating his wife." [Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215]
Iyas-b-Abdullah reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "Don't beat the maids of Allah." Then Omar came to Muhammed and said, "Women have become daring against their husbands." So Muhammed allowed them to beat them. Attested by Abu Daud. The hadith then tells that women began to lay siege on Muhammed to mediate their beatings [Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 212 (65)]
- If the wife knows her husband's guest is his friend, she has to entertain him in bed, and remember, this is the way to Paradise for the Muslim woman.
Ja`ber-b-Abdullah reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "...Verily, you have married (wives) with trust in Allah. You have got the right over them that they entertain nobody to your bed which you dislike. If they do this, give them a beating..." [Al Hadis, Vol 1, p. 217 (76)]
- Rape of pagan female captives is allowed. [Muslim., Book 008, Number 3371]
- Women are intellectual and spiritual inferior to men [Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301]
- Evil omen is in women [Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30]
- A woman who is raped must proof this fact to avoid lashing? [Malik, Book 41, Number 41.4.16a]
- Life of a woman is worth half of that of a man [Malik, Book 43, Number 43.6.4b]
- Abu Sayeed al-Khodri reported that Muhammed was talking to a group of women when he said, "... I see the majority of you will go to Hell."
The women asked why, to which Muhammed responded, "You often curse and are ungrateful to your companions." He then told them they had a basic defect in their religion, to which they responded, "How?" Muhammed answered, "Is not the attestation (knowledge and witness) of a women only worth half of a man's? And that is on account of her short intelligence." [Al-Hadis, Vol. 3, p. 137]
- "A woman is like a private part (sex organ). When she goes out (walking) the devil casts a glance at her (in lust)" Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 692

Quoting rubbish from rubbish books.
For more:
http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ ... /chap2.php

Women have fewer rights concerning divorce [2:28]
Your wives are a tilth (a piece of farmland) to you [2:223]

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-13-1.htm

Beautiful virgins await Muslim men in Paradise for their sensual gratification [55:56]

Biblical orgy in heaven:

Heaven
Christians who never think about Heaven are said to have the three cardinal virtues of Faith, Cope and Love because they are Christian only for what it does for them in this life!
Jesus continually encourages investing our time, talent and treasure in Heaven, yet we often neglect it. So, this page encourages us to bring in the benefits and perspective of Heaven while on Earth.
II. Heaven Doesn't Reflect Earth—Earth Reflects Heaven
We tend to think that all the good things on Earth will exist in Heaven only in some shadowy, vague, weakened, diluted way.
The Biblical view of Heaven is that every good thing we experience on Earth will exist in Heaven in a higher, perfected way.
For example, after death we won’t exist in a fog of white light or float on a cloud as a disembodied soul. Each of God's own will have a glorified physical body, just as Jesus has a resurrected, glorified body. "Our bodies now are a mere shadow or prophetic hint of a more solid resurrection body that we will receive later, the Artist’s preliminary sketch of His later masterpiece," says Peter Kreeft.
This is a key reason why we don’t spend time thinking about Heaven more—we have the wrong image. Kreeft:
One reason we have lost our love for Heaven is because we have lost the sense of Heavenly glory. Biblical imagery of jewels, stars, candles, trumpets, and angels no longer fits our ranch-style, supermarket world. Pathetic modern substitutes of fluffy clouds, sexless cherubs, harps and metal halos… simply do not move us... In medieval Christendom, it was the world beyond this world that made all the difference in the world to this world… Earth was Heaven’s womb, Heaven’s dress rehearsal. Heaven was the meaning of the Earth.
The Bible is filled with analogies describing Earth as a reflection of Heaven. Paul says that on Earth we see God in a dirty mirror, but says that we who are with Christ will see Him face-to-face. CS Lewis called Earth the Shadowlands of a great city over the horizon. (The 1993 Shadowlands film doesn't bring this out as well as the 1963 BBC version.)
The picture the Bible paints of Heaven is organic! It describes Heaven as lush fields of green, with lions and lambs in peace (much like a return to the Garden of Eden), with cities having streets of gold, etc. (In the Christian fellowship I attend we like to think of our group as one "neighborhood in the New Jerusalem.") We don’t have to take our metaphors about Heaven literally, but we do have to take them seriously, because they point to something more, not less, than the images they connote.
Earthly physical gifts, and pleasures and passions exist in Heaven where they are perfected, heightened and ordered.
Kreeft: To think of the love that made the world, the love that became human, suffered alienation from itself and died to save us rebels, the love that gleams though the fanatic joy of Jesus’ obedience to the will of His Father and that shines in the eyes and lives of the saints—to think of this love as any less passionate than our temporary and conditioned passions ’is a most disastrous fantasy.’" And that consuming fire of love is our destined Husband, according to His own promise. Sex in Heaven? Oh yes, and no pale, abstract, merely mental shadow of it either. Earthly sex is the shadow, and our lives are a process of thickening so that we can share in the substance, …so that we can endure and rejoice in the Heavenly fire.

Conclusion
Let’s pray for greater excitement about Heaven! Let’s be Christians of Faith, Hope and Love. In fact, our lives should not make sense without the hope of Heaven. Someone should be able to point to us and say "that person sacrifices things in this life because of rewards Jesus promises in the next."
Heaven is coming. It is nearer now than when you began this article.

http://www.davenevins.com/loveofgod/topics/heaven.htm




Is there food, drink, pleasure, and do angels have
SEX IN HEAVEN?
SUPERNATURAL RESURRECTION- OR ANGELIC BODIES
Us, humans, have merely a worm's eye view of God's big apple of the Universe and the mysterious surrounding Heavenly Realm outside of it! So for us to talk about "Heaven" is like a worm talking from inside his mushy apple, about the endless unknown reality of space and light as an "Out-of-Apple Experience", and our talking about "Resurrection" or "Angelic bodies", as the same worm trying to coin his next manifestation as bug or butterfly, as a "glorified worm body!"
We realise it remains difficult! Yet we can consult reliable sources of knowledge about the next life, when we read about or had a "Near Death Experience" or other spiritual experiences, OR... if we read the Bible! IF you do--with a non-churchian mindset that is--you come to some amazing conclusions! One of which is very startling!--The fact that angels and us can make love or have SEX in Heaven!
THE SEXY SONS OF GOD
In the Bible is a very interesting passage, which has been a source of controversy among church people, as most of them have quite a sex-phobic mindset and attitudes. This passage in Genesis 6:1 which took place in the pre-diluvian days of Noah, goes as follows:
"And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were pretty; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always struggle with man, for that he is also flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; [Editor: giant human skeletons have been found!] and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
The "sons of God" are the angels, just as Jesus is also a Son of God. But He is called the "only begotten", meaning that He is the only BORN Son of God, because He was the only one willing or chosen, who chose to come down into this life as a flesh and blood human being to forge an escape from sin, by breaking its curse with the sacrifice of His own death and blood. It says, th
"He was made a little lower than the angels!"
In spirit, Jesus was far above any angel, including of course the rebelling or "fallen" angels like Lucifer. But he was made a little bit lower in the flesh!
Angels have bodies too, that can look similar to ours. That's why it says in the Bible:
"Be not reluctant to entertain strangers, because some have entertained ANGELS without realizing it"
But Jesus' body was lower in that it was like our flesh and blood bodies that are limited in powers! Angels' bodies can dematerialise, appear and disappear, fly and change form and probably do lots of other tricks that we can't even imagine. (Angels struck the Sodomite attackers of Lot with blindness!)
Angel bodies are made from superior Heavenly substances; from Heavenly flesh and bones. As Jesus said after His resurrection, when He got back his angelic body that He had before He came down here:
"Touch me and handle me, for a spirit has no flesh and bones as you see me have!"
[A very good verse for those who don't think there are spirit bodies without flesh and bones!]
Then He ate some food to prove that his new glorified body was similar to theirs, and that he was not a ghost! He could still enjoy the flesh!--His new angelic flesh as well! Only by eating?--Or drinking too? And how about exercising? And what about SEX-ercising? Oh-oh!
DO ANGELS MAKE LOVE?
So, in these pre-flood days of Noah, the sons of God—the Angels—"saw the daughters of men, that they were pretty!" They really liked those girls and the way they looked, and greatly desired them, and so they took them as wives, and "went in unto them!" Pretty sexy, if you ask me!--Biblical language for making love. And these pretty human daughters even bore them sons, which grew up to become famous people! So in effect, their kids were some kind of half-gods, having angels as their fathers!
Now whether you like it or not, this can only mean that angels have bodies that are capable of manifesting the same (Although better! No impotency and so on! Ha!) sexual functions as ours, that they can have intercourse! And why NOT! Shouldn’t Angels have the same pleasures or even more pleasures than us? Of course! So, Angels—the Sons of God—must also have… penises, or at least the ability to have and manifest one! I don't think they fertilized those pretty girls artificially or through some miracle! It says they fancied those girls, for what? For just talking with them? Or playing chess? No, they fancied their bodies! They saw they were "fair!" The "lust of the eye!"
You can’t get around it. Many churchians would maybe want to, because it screws up their theology! "It is not JUDEO-CHRISTIAN MORALLY CORRECT!" This wouldn’t bother Muslims, as they have a sexy Heaven, and even believe in "heavenly houris", where the Germanic words; "whore", "hoer", "hure" etc. come from, girls who freely share their sexual favors with their saints! In the Heavenlies, Muslims are much more liberal than average Churchians! Lets face it! Allah bless them!
Uh-oh, now we've done it! We have now lost most, if not all of our churchy, preconceived ideas audience right here on the spot, if they ever dared to enter this "sacrilegious" website, which suggests that there is SEX IN HEAVEN!
"Tsk! Tsk! Of ALL THINGS! HOW DARE HE! CRUCIFY HIM!!"
IS THERE SEX IN HEAVEN?
Standard Churchian explanations of the above Bible passage are; that these angels were (of course!) "fallen angels!"--As in their concept, only fallen angels could have had penises! Ha! Poor obedient angels! They didn't know what they were missing, because according to these Churchian views, they wouldn't even have been equipped with sexual organs, as there would be no need for them, as certainly nobody goes toilet in Heaven!
According to most Churchian doctrine, there is NO SEX in Heaven, as according to them sex was a "direct result of the fall of man into sin!"
So these angels had also "fallen into sin", or became fallen angels "in the very horrible act", and as a result must have grown sex organs on the spot, "these evil sprouting manifestations of their impure thoughts", like Adam and Eve had when they obeyed the serpent—the Devil—who promptly gave them these luscious sinful juicy horny sex organs, "so they could "suffer" Churchy abstinence and condemnation!" Ha! How ridiculous can you get!
When these so-called "fallen angels" came down or manifested themselves in earthly forms and dimensions, and flirted with those pretty "fallen" girls of men, the obedient angels must have been spitefully watching from Above with blushing faces, listening to all these wonderful moaning and ecstatic sounds that these "fallen girls" and no doubt these "fallen angels" were making down there, while they came together in Angelic Orgasms! Whew!
You can just imagine how insanely jealous these "goodie goodie" angels must have been, as jealous as today's Churchians secretly are of our sex-crazed world! As jealous as when they must have watched Adam meet Eve for the first time, when he walked up to her, and fell into her beautiful blue eyes, and...shook her hand?? NO WAY MAN! She shook his little hand! Ha! And it quickly began to grow! And it wasn't long before Adam and Eve were going at it, right there in the Garden of Eden! As it is written:
"Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD." (Genesis 4:1)
A bit like the following joke!
This nun was in a TV Quiz and was asked the 64 $ question: "What did Eve say when she saw Adam for the first time in the Garden of Eden!"
The nun was thinking and thinking, rubbing her chin, shaking her head, paining her brain and finally in exasperation answered: "Oooh! That's a HARD one!"
The Quiz-master cried out, "That's the right answer!"
IS SEX A SIN?
Now why did all these Churchy people cook up this "fallen angels" theory, other than to justify their belief that "sex is sinful!"—Which doctrine is actually an old puritan hangover from Pagan religions, first perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church, and then slavishly taken over by Protestantism, Evangelicals and Holiness churches! But you will not find anything anywhere in the Bible that declares that sex is sinful!
Of course, there is sinful sex! Just as much as there is sinful eating, and sinful exercising, etc., mostly dependent on what motives are involved and what measure! Like, if you steal bread from the poor, that is sinful eating, or when you eat far too much and hurt your body, that is sinful eating, or when you exercise too much so your body becomes deformed! Likewise...if you steal sex from your neighbor, it is sinful sex, or if you use portals that weren't designed for it and they tear and get infected and kill you in the long run! Or if you let an unregenerated departed spirit, even of another gender, enter your mind, heart and spirit and take you over with such destructive and unnatural behavior often leading to violence and murder! That is sinful sex. But sex as such is not sinful! Neither is eating, nor drinking, nor exercising!
Sex is a wonderful creation of God, His amazing gift to Mankind, that He himself instituted also to keep this His project going! Because without His holy sex there is no procreation, and the eternal new harvest of Heavenly spirits would miss their chance to grow into perfection, without getting this wonderful once-in-an-eternity chance to come down here into this life and grow as substantially as men do in this level of God's wonderful Universe! As it says in Hebrews 12:22,23
"But ye are come...unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and ecclessia of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men [being] made perfect."
There the Eternal City is mentioned again, "Heavenly Jerusalem", God's Heavenly City, with its original inhabitants, the angels, as well as "the spirits of just men" who are in the process of being made perfect! Two classes, among God-knows-how-many more!--Cherubs, Seraphs and even Heavenly beasts, etc.—Angels and spirits of just men!
Spirits are spirits because they have not an angelic body… yet! But the last shall be first, because an angelic body is promised them! All the believers of the last 2000 years AND us who will still be alive after the coming terrible worldwide Persecution of Christians, will receive a resurrection body in the imminent Great Resurrection at the soon coming of Jesus and His triumphant reentry into the Earth's Atmosphere! There we will join the already resurrected Old Testament Saints, who were resurrected at the resurrection of Jesus 2000 years ago!
WHAT WILL WE BE LIKE, AFTER THE RESURRECTION?
Enjoy the following account, when Jesus was tempted by the skeptic religionists of His time. (Luke 20:27-35)
"Then came to him certain of the Sadducees (the modernists of His time! They were so sad-you-see?), which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, saying, 'Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man's brother die, having a wife, and he die without children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
"There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children.
"And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. Last of all the woman died also.
"Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? For seven had her to wife."
"And Jesus answering said unto them, 'The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage."
Mark 12:25 "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."
We will be AS the angels of God which are in Heaven. He didn't say "will be the angels" as that would exclude the first generation of angels already there! But we will be just like them, "as the angels!"
So now you understand why we are so happy, because we believe that there is SEX IN HEAVEN and that we will soon become angels in the coming Resurrection, meaning that we will have bodies just like them, and powers like them! As St. John said, "And we shall be like Him!" Like Jesus! Not the same in authority or stature as Jesus of course, who is the first and foremost top-creation of God! No! But we will have the same kind of body! WOW! (1 John 3:1,2)
"Look, what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we [already in spirit!] the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
That's when Jesus comes back to resurrect and gather us unto himself and take us Home to New Jerusalem, the Heavenly city! And contrary to public opinion, a SEXY Heaven!
I can hardly wait! Can you? Are you ready to go There? Go to Heaven? You will be, if you only ask Jesus:
Dear Jesus, please come into my heart
and forgive me for all the unloving things I've done,
and give me your gift of eternal life,
in Jesus name, amen! Thank You

http://www.heavenlyparadise.cjb.net/heaven/sexinhev.htm

http://www.ncbuy.com/news/wireless_news ... 0DTW030925

[Liberate]

But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

Jesus considered a divorced woman as an adulteress and anyone who marry a divorced woman is a fornicator.
Is your mom one of these bitches??

If this is the level of unprovoked abuse you will bestow on the christians in this forum you will be shown the way out.

[shhhhhhhhhhhhh]

If this is the level of unprovoked abuse you will bestow on the christians in this forum you will be shown the way out.

Oops!!! You made me so scared

Jerk blame your savior. He's the one who called a divorced woman a BITCH
And do not blame me!!!

If your mom got divorced, then please tell me what your mom is called and you'll be the "son of what" according to Lord Jesus?

[newseed]

shhhhhhhhhh,

If you are going to debate any issues then please do so. Otherwise, you have been forewarned by Liberate and other moderators here on this forum.

Again, you need to read forum rules.

[Kai Hagbard]

Well Newseed

I was preparing myself to deal with Ssshhhhhhhh or whatever.

However, I agree with H2O, that some posts are not worth responding to.

The use of 'bitch', or the use of phrases like 'rubbish Bible' clearly reveals that sssssshhhhhhhhh is not a person I would ascribe integrity.

I have certainly decided for myself that, say rudeness and ridecule mark a post, I will simply refrain from responding.

If I referred to the Koran as a rubbish on a Islamic forum, I would have been kicked out, and my posts with me.

It is another thing to ask and present difficulties with the Bible or the Koran, but sadly sssssshhhhhh is unable to differentiate between respectful arguing and playing silly.

After all I have a lot of respect for H2O, the very reason why I bother to argue with him.

God bless everyone

Pray for my laptob

Be blessed

Kai

[H2O]

Eh ! I come back to a war zone . Shhhhhh what are you doing ? Brother you are Muslim and I am to support and to correct you if you do wrong. It seem you have went over the boundaries here and else where. Alllaah strickly sets up guidlines for us for when debating with the people of the book. We are to debate with them with Wisdom and beautiful preaching except for those of them who transgress but we are not to transgress.

O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. 4:135

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. 16:126

As to those who ridicule disrespect the signs of Alllaah such as the Quran or Muhammad :

Already has He sent you word in the Book, that when ye hear the Signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the Hypocrites and those who defy Faith, all in Hell. 4:140

When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong. 6:68

This is a good case of how to ignore them

This also goes for the rest of the Christians on this forum if you see us take the course of ignoring some of your statements.

I think you have seriously misunderstood the concept and nature of Christianity

No, I think you have seriously miunderstood the concept and nature of Islam.

First of all, there is no mention or concept in the New Testament on Christian countries, Christianity is a spiritual religion, with an emphasis on mission, conversion and lifestyle, there is no mention of Christian politic, invasion or suppression. The historical distortion of this concept in the fourth century, when imperial Christology was instituted finds no origin in the Bible.

Oof ! Do you have any idea what the difference is between a Christian country and a Christian state ? When I said Christian country it a country that is predominated by a Christian population.

Concerning, the matter of culture, the Bible does not propose any specific culture, however, holy and moral lifestyle is fundamental. Looking at Paul’s letter there is the issue of contextualisation, which enables a Christian to live like a Jew, among Jews and as free from the law among Gentiles (1 Cor.9: 19-23), otherwise living according to God’s standard is always an obligation.

Which makes Christianity prone to modify its religious concepts and principles due to the demand of cultural needs and wants.

Rather than Christianity governing culture, culture is governing Christianity to the same degree as rather than Christianizing Modernizm Christianity has been modernized.

In is Islam it is taught in complete in the reverse.

It’s a fact that nominal Christianity (being Christian only by name) is the greatest enemy of Christianity, and this category is condemned by the New Testament Scriptures (2 Tim.3: 1-5).
Considering your view that every Western country is Christian and every American who attends the Jerry Springer show a Christian as well, simply reveals incredible ignorance about the nature of the Christian religion.

See here is your Bias. I presented that to show you whats going on in your own back yards, not that you dont know this, but then in same wave you tend to judge islam based on what it adheres do rather than its teaching. And my opinion is that you have not done enough study of islam to even consider your self knwoledgable or to know what islam teaches as I will show you your gross misrepresentation which are based on the acts of Adheres and a particular eastern culture, and custom that has nothing to do with islam in which you are unable to give distiction between.

Then, in fact you are saying, that the particular hadith refers to sexual engagement between a husband’s wife with a male husband’s friend, a female, an animal or a thing.Anyway you did not answer the real question, say, the particular Hadith was uttered by Muhammad, it still does not prohit a women to sleep, with a man, female or thing, say the husband does not accept his, her’s or its friendship.The Hadith clearly seems to say, that a women should not entertain anyone in the bed, whom the husband dislikes (dislikes is the matter her), then the opposite must be true, who is the one who the husband likes. Since the hushand has a right over her body, he will have his say over the matter, otherwise she will be beaten. I would say: not exactly a standard of God in any way or direction.

The hadeeth contradicts the Quran. A woman is to lay with no other human being except her husband. Adultry, fornication, and homosexuality are condemned to severe punishment ,even to death, or imprisonment per the Quran. Therefore the hadeeth is false.

Well possibly you are correct, this particular Hadith does contradict the Quran, that however, does not deny the fact that Muhammad atleast at one point may have allowed this practice.

Not so. That hadeeth dating was way after the revelation condemning adultry, fornication and homosexuality were revealed. The hadeeth is false.

In other words, Loki was correct, unless we subdue our wives we risk a internal rebellion. I have a few points to criticise here.

First of all, I doubt you are married H2O (correct me if you want). If devotion from your wife, is a demand for a man’s shopping and feeding, then you marriage is simply built upon demanded exptance, in other words If I do this, I expect you to do that.

Maybe you should read more into what I said before you respond to it. Cause I showed a verse in which a man is suppose to treat his wife in like manner how she is to treat her husband. Did you over look this part or you just werent paying attention ?

First of all, I doubt you are married H2O (correct me if you want). If devotion from your wife, is a demand for a man’s shopping and feeding, then you marriage is simply built upon demanded exptance, in other words If I do this, I expect you to do that

Again you are misunderstood. A man must give the same devotion to his wife as his wife is to be devoted to him. Man and wife in Islam are companions to aid one another. The man has a right over his wife and the woman has a right over her husband, both are garments to one another.

You even ridicule Christian men who recognise that women are not inferior, that women do not need to be controlled or bought with romantic merit; if this is Islam, then your religion falls short.

Women are to be protected and taken care of and maintained for their needs and wants. A man should be a man to take care of his responsabilities. Getting married is a responsability.

Actually, H2O, what you are stating here, is both insane and sick to be straight forward honest. I trust my wife as she trusts me, we follow the Christian standards, and I can tell you that there is no need for me to subdue her (even though I admit I could be a bit more romantic at times) or buy her with things or basic needs.

You are misunderstood. Did what I say conclude to marrying a woman or to stay married to woman you dont trust ? Obviously in the begining before they got married there is trust. Above I showed you , what you all prejudiced, a man has to tolerate his wife if she becomes disloyal etc to her husband, where as a woman does not have to tolerate such type abuse from her husband.

Maybe you need to go back up and re-read my post.

Oh thats right H20...

You live in the good ole US of A. Where no muslim man could treat a women the way they do in the middle east.

You must live by that ultra liberal concept, "if it dont happen where I live, it must not happen at all".

Peace and Godspeed my brothers.

When last did you see Cops ? 85% of the show is based on domestic violence. 65% of the men in jail is because of an American woman. 15 % of those in Jail is for murder of their spouse or girl friend. And these are the one who are cought there are much more out there that havent been cought yet. All the above are couples that have a Christian back ground.

For some reason I thought there was much more post on this thread between me and Kai. Newseed can you check to see if you didnt remove the wrong post. Cause I am sure there was another post of Kai's on here that I was to respond to but I cant find it, nore a post that I have made.

[H2O]

Oops ! Disregard my last phrase statement above. I found Kai's post. Geesh looking at computers all days make ya kind of . Today is my day off and I still cant stay away from a computer. ugh!

Utter rubbish H2O
The Islamic concept on women is built on nothing but lust and suppression.

...This is rubbish, the reason why males have dominated females sexually through out the centuries, is not due to sexual deseases, but lust.

This is what your book says Kai:

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

According to your book, man is to rule over woman.

Anyhow, I thought you read the Quran ? If you did then you would have found this that contradicts your statement.

Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you: except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property, desiring chastity, not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, ye agree mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise. 4:24

Also you made a statement that islam practices Mut'a. The verse above condemns Mut'a, also Muta is something practiced by Shi'ites. Agreed Muta was someting practiced in Pre-islam but it was condemned in the Quran.

O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do. 4:135

Nay, the wrong-doers (merely) follow their own lusts, being devoid of knowledge but who will guide those whom Allah leaves astray? To them there will be no helpers. 30:29

It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to Allah their Lord, (saying): "If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful." 7:189

And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect. 30:21

They(wives) are your garments and ye are their garments 2:187.

A man cannot seek to marry a woman out of lust. It is plain put in the Quran. We are to mary seeking love, companionship, chastity, and support. you understanding of islam is way in contrary to its Quranic teaching but solely based on what you see eastern adheres so which does not justify any means to be islamic. What you have incountered is culture and tribal and nationalistic customs that over ride the religion.

[Madeleine]

*pokes head through the door*

Hello everyone, just thought I'd better clear up something that shhhhhhh wrote earlier...

Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery"

I think what shhhhhh said was a misquote of some sort.

Anyway, we can clearly see that this verse means that a man should not divorce his wife unless she has committed sexual immorality. If he divorces his wife for any other reason and remarries, he has committed adultery.

[shhhhhhhhhhhhh]

So if things between you and your husbands didn't go well and there's no mutual comprehension, then your savior asks you to still live in this hell situation without any solution, and if you get divorced you'll be a (removed by newseed - strike 3!)

I think your savior should got married to see how marriage can sometimes fail, but this psycho was in hurry to suicide on the cross

[Madeleine]

There is a solution! Love each other and get through whatever difficulty it is you're having. Don't just give up on your marriage- work at it!

[Truth Seeker-Joshua]

So if things between you and your husbands didn't go well and there's no mutual comprehension, then your savior asks you to still live in this hell situation without any solution, and if you get divorced you'll be a (removed by newseed - strike 3!)

Here's a Grand idea. What if people would actually marry for love; not materialism, socail stature, or family stature, and sawt their true soul mate.

Then the law of God could be followed, and the muslims would find some other reason to nitpick Christianity to make the abominations of their religion seem more acceptable.

Peace and Godspeed
Pray for Isreal