The 'Miracles' of Islam

[Loki]

"Is it not enough of a miracle that we sent down to you this book, being recited to them? This is indeed a mercy and a reminder for people who believe." [29:51]

Acctually Allah said there are no miracles neccerary... except this poor excuse of a book to proof divinity. So all miracles claimed here, are just vain attempts of muslims holding on to straw. In order to have some messianic relevance to the Judeo-Christian theology.

The Prophet's, Illiteracy:
- first it is not a very important question since Muhammad's illiteracy doesn't prove anything. Whether Muhammad had the technical ability to read and write or not, doesn't not imply anything about the source of his speech or the possibility of having been informed by others orally.
- There was a time in Muhammad's life when he could do some reading and writing. Reference Bukhari's Hadith's 4.288 Here Muhammad asked for pen and paper for writing. While the debate of whether or not Muhammad could read can go on, or at what time he learned how to read and write, it really has no bearing on the argument. Muhammad could have listened to the Christians and Jews reciting their Scripture, or teaching him, and he could have remembered what they said and later repeated it as the Quran. Judging from the meager citations concerning Jesus et. al. in the Quran, it would have been quite easy for anyone with an average memory to remember and quote those details.
- William Shakespeare had no formal studies and yet composed one of the if not THE greatest literal peaces in english literature Ludwig Von Beethoven even made the most beautifull and mind boggling compositions when he was deaf. Hellen Keller was even deaf AND blind yet she wrote a books.
- Muhammed was a merchant, any merchant had at least a little knowledge of commerce and therefore reading and writing taking this criterion as a proof of his prophethood is not very strong.

The Quran:
- The Bible defines a miracle as something that defies the laws of nature. Muslims claim the Koran is a miracle merely because it was allegedly transmitted perfectly without alteration and flaw till the second coming. Since the Harry Potter books will certainly be transmitted perfectly without alteration or flaw, and be around until the second coming, my question is: does this make the Harry Potter books a miracle like the Koran?

The Quran's Mathematical Number 19:
- In spite of Dr. Khalifa's claim that no human conjecture is involved, there is a basic assumption in the very first statement claiming that this phrase from the Qur'an has 19 letters. When we rewrite the English transcription of the Arabic, eliminating the vowels which aren't written, but only understood, the phrase looks like this: "BSM ALLH ALRHMN ALRHIM", which counts out to 19 letters. However, there is a little mark in Arabic grammar called a "shadda" which means that the letter underneath the mark is doubled. "ALLaH" or "ALLH" has a "shadda" on the second "L", and could (should?) be written "ALLLH" which would then make 20 letters.
- In his presentation Dr. Khalifa has not explained how he made his decision to exclude the doubling of the letter; nor, for that matter, how he decided to omit the unwritten vowels.

The Pharaoh Preservation:
"This day We save you in your body, that you may be a portent for those after you." [10:92]
Problem: Many Quranic interpreters think that Sura 10:92 is saying that Pharaoh's "body" would be "saved" --or preserved (mummified)-- for future generations. This interpretation is very problematic, though, because if the prediction means that the Pharaoh's body was going to be "saved" (preserved) by mummification, then this is not significant prediction, because almost all the bodies of Egyptian pharaohs were mummified. Such a "prediction" would be very safe to make, since it would have nearly a 100% chance of being fulfilled. It's a "sure bet." Since Mohammed lived in Medina (in western Saudi Arabia) --along a popular trade-route from Egypt-- Mohammed surely knew about the practice of mummifying pharaohs in Egypt, and so, this "saving" of a pharaoh's body through mummification would not even be a prediction, but the mere statement of an assured historical event.
Another Problem: The Cairo Museum (in Egypt) is in possession of a mummy which may be that of the Pharaoh Merneptah (the son of Ramesses II), and many muslims think that the display of this mummy fulfills Sura 10:92. However, if the mummy in Cairo is the body of Merneptah, then that mummy is most probably not the pharaoh of Moses' time at the Exodus. This is quite clear, since Merneptah's forces went up to "Canaan" to attack "Israel," which is stated in the last section of the Mernepath Stele. Some of the best scholarship today indicates that the exodus under Moses was some 50 years earlier than Merneptah, and that the pharaoh of Moses' day was actually Ramesses II

The splitting of the moon:

"The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Muhammad to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon)" [54:1]

- The incident of the splitting of the moon that has been mentioned determines its period of revelation precisely. The traditionists and commentators are agreed that this incident took place at Mina in Makkah about five years before the Holy Prophet's hijra (immigration) to Madinah (about 565 AD). Nowhere has modern astronomy acctually proven that the moon splitted in two.
- The witnesses were simply NOT impressed... these were sceptics, not people who were seeking blind faith. Otherwise they wouldn't of questioned 'the prophet's' authority in the first place. And obviously just as Muhammed says alot of times in his scripture, when you don't get it. Your obviously stupid (without knowledge) or not wanting to believe in what he says (don't wanna be guided) and sometimes threats them with Hell (when the days of near they will repent when it's too late) if all previous doesn't work.

Impossible:
- First of all it would be catastrophic if the moon were to be split. All life on earth would cease to exist. The earth would be snatched off it's orbit, the dust would cloud the earth and all vegetation would die. Second of all, from the Hadith it says that the moon was split in two and one side fell in front of them and the other went behind the mountain. How ridiculous, in a small area of Arabia the moon fell in two pieces and both pieces were seen. How could it fit? No historian or any other man or woman wrote about this historic event? This is BS!
- If it is split into equal halves. The major effect that the moon has on earth is the ocean tidal system. If the two new halves were opposite in location around the earth, this would mean that the gravity effects on ocean tides would sort of cancel each other out. Therefore, there would be less fluctuations in ocean tides. This would greatly affect organisms that live in inter-tidal zones in all the oceans, especially their reproductive cycles. For some kinds of organisms, it might mean extinction for them.
- Why isn't the moon still split? It would of been a much bigger miracle if the moon was still split, so the whole world could see and investigate that in 565 AD, the moon splitted in half for no apparent reason, and that we can only assume that Muhammed did it. But no Allah, wanted to keep the miracle with the 'preservation of a book'

Muslim Defence 1:
"the miracle existed only at that time for the people of Quraiesh when they challenged the prophet Muhammmad (SAW) to show them a miracle, or a proof that he is the messenger of Allah. The challenge was to split the moon in to two pieces when it is full."
answer: sure, then the miracle was only a illusion, Allah was praying tricks, he didn't really splitted the moon when they asked that to happen.... so that years from now we can see that Allah lied against these poor men, and insulted their intelligence with a trick... that's okay with me, then nothing supernatural happed... on top of that NOWHERE in the Quran is implied that it was only noticeable for the people of the Quraiesh tribe. You only assume that it was so, cause no other texts ever mentioned this happening

Muslim Defence 2:
To answer that, one must keep the prophecy in mind: “The moon has split.” This is a metaphor. Parts of the moon have left its surface. They no longer are part of the moon. So, the prophecy does not refer to the landing on the moon or to the first step made by Neil Armstrong but to the fact that Armstrong and Aldrin collected 21 kilograms of lunar rocks to bring them back to earth. The prophecy was fulfilled at the very moment the Astronauts left the moon in the lunar module containing 21 kilograms of rocks that had belonged to the moon.
reasoning behind this: This prophecy has come to pass on July 21 1969. Let us write those numbers down in the format used by almost all countries : 21 / 07 /1969. We get 21071969 and 21071969 = 19 x 1109051 It is interesting to note that the american date of landing is coded. The lunar module landed on July 20 : 7 / 20 1969. Indeed : 7201969 = 379051 X 19....
Answer: why is the Christian year taking to proof this far out theory? why not the Muslim calendar? What kinda of answer would that be? Muhammed points at the moon in orde to convince the two unbelievers with a miracle and then nothing happen 'at least not now'. over thousands of years from now. I wouldn't be convinced either!!! i agree with those two poor people who wasted 5 minutes of their precious time, wasting it on bs! and on top of that if they didn't see anything why would they say 'old trick' (since magic doesn't really excist) 'seen that allready', bye mister prophet. so far the trick isn't possible and isn't supported to be either and the prophecy doesn't make sence either. Basiclly 'the miracle' didn't occur at all.

Jesus said, "...false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time" (Matthew 24:24-25).

[Loki]

as did noone respond to this

[hisway]

Again I find your posting informative. It's a shame more have not commented in reply. I did a post called Jesus Is His Name in five parts in the Christian Debate Forum but no one has responded either. But getting back to your topic here. I had a Muslim from Pakistan live with me as a Home Stay student and I had several discussions with him about Islam. One thing he told was apparently somewhere in the human lungs the name Allah is written in Arabic and it is considered a miracle. Perhaps you can expound on that since you have done the indepth research? Also, he told me that Arabic is considered the only true and pure language and when Jesus returns to earth Jesus will proclaim Islam as the true religion and everyone will be required to speak Arabic. In addition a student from Saudi Arabia stayed with me and he told me that in his country it is permitted for a man to have up to four wives. I would be very interested in your comments in reply.

[Abdurrahman]

Muhammed (peace be upon him) has shown more than 1000 miracles
according to islamic historians.
About 300 of these miracles can you find in this link.
Muhammed (pbuh) has shown miracles by permition of Allah .
Most of the miracles are shown to believers of Allah to strenghten their
faith rather than to make people believe Muhammed (pbuh).

This is the link if you are interested.

http://www.ayetulkubra.com/rnkdiller/en ... etters.htm

See letter 19 link in this page.

But Muhammed and Quran says the greatest miracle is Quran itself.

In 1400 years not one word has changed .
This is a miracle by itself .
Quran is known by heart by thausends of muslims from the very start
and by Millions right now.

Scientfic , mathematical and biological miracles are known day by
day .

I will post when I have time and learn more about this issue.

Best regards

[Sevryn45]

Abdurrahman lets say that the Miricals really did happened, that in fact would not change our position on Muhammed and Islam. I don't have a problem that Muslims claim Muhammed performed Miracles, that's not a problem for me.


Here are my problems friend; we have a criteria for a prophet BOTH Jews and Christians agree on that criteria.

- Prophet must be from the line of Judah; Must prove his geneology, this
means there has to be a record of a blood line.
- Prophet gives prophecies; if even one of them does not come to pass
when the Prophet said it would come to pass HE IS A FALSE PROPHET.
- Prophet must not transgress the Word of God; i.e cannot say and do
anyhting that will brake his commandments.

Guess what Muhammed failed all of them.

- Muhammed is not a descended of the tribe of Judah.
- Not all Muhammed Prophecies came to pass; he said that the world
would end 500 years after his death, did this Happened?
- Muhammed broke all ten Commandments.
- Must have Witnesses, Prophets that foretold of his coming.
et.c

Since Muhammed failed to prove that he is from the line of Judah, He is a false Prophet. He missed out on prophecies, much like Joseph Sith (Mormons) and JW's and thousands of other people that claimed to be prophets.

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah ,most gracious most mercifull



The Quran and Modern Science
In contrast to the Bible, statements about scientific phenomena made in the Qur'an are perfectly in conformity with the modern sciences, states French surgeon, Dr. Maurice Bucaille

http://www.islamfortoday.com/bucaille01.htm


The Basic Process Of The Formation of the Universe according to the Quran and Science.
Celestial Organization according to the Quran and Science.
Evolution Of The Heavens according to the Quran and Science.
Conquest Of Space predicted 1400 years ago by the Quran.


http://www.islam101.com/science/bucaille.html

I will comment on your opinions about Muhammed later when I have time .

Best regards

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

I’d like to comment regarding your statements…

The Quran and Modern Science
In contrast to the Bible, statements about scientific phenomena made in the Qur'an are perfectly in conformity with the modern sciences, states French surgeon, Dr. Maurice Bucaille

http://www.islamfortoday.com/bucaille01.htm

With all due respect, the French surgeon’s quarter century outdated and outmoded fiction novel hardly warrants serious consideration except from ignorant Muslims…

Do you find yourself fitting the description of an avid Bucaille follower…?

The Basic Process Of The Formation of the Universe according to the Quran and Science.
Celestial Organization according to the Quran and Science.
Evolution Of The Heavens according to the Quran and Science.
Conquest Of Space predicted 1400 years ago by the Quran.


http://www.islam101.com/science/bucaille.html

It is most interesting that naïve Muslims flock tenaciously to the bogus work of a French surgeon who has absolutely no authority in Astrophysics.

Furthermore, the Holy Bible grand slams the Koran in every measure, Cosmology is no exception.

Remember….the holy Bible is the Original…..the Koran is just an poor imitation of the Original..


Take care…

[Sevryn45]

Now Now apple pie let's leave the Muslims alone until they blow something else up and kill thousands of people for no particular reason.
I just hope after a nuke jihadist attack some of these so called peacefull muslim knuckleheads wake up to smell and smell the coffe.

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , the most gracious the most merciful

Muhammed (pbuh) is a descendant of Ibrahim (pbuh)
like Jesus , Moses , David (peace be upon them all)
After a little research you can find docs about this .

I ve never heard a hadith about the end of the World in 500
years .
Again if you search internet 5 minutes you will see ayah of Qur'an
and Hadith of Muhammed pbuh , which says noone knows when
the end of the world is except The God allmighty.

Fullfilled prophecies

FINGER PRINTS
"Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing" (14:21)
The finger prints system at borders, criminal investigation cells and immigration centres prove the fulfillment of this Quranic prophecy.
POLLUTION
"Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what men’s hands have wrought" (30:42)
One of the interpretations of the above verse of the Holy Quran is the environmental pollution, caused by human being. And that is spread both in land and sea due to our own inventions, i.e., fumes from chimneys of factories, chemical and nuclear waste, huge traffic in the cities, noise and creation of ozone hole are manifest testimonies of the fulfillment of this prophecy.
ESTABLISHMENT OF ISRAEL
And after him We said to the Children of Israel, 'Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people." (17:105)
Creation of Israel and gathering of Sephardic, Ashkenazi and the Jews of many other different races in Israel proves the authenticity of this prophecy and hence Quran.
GENETIC ENGINEERING
"They will alter Allah's creation." (4:120)
The holy Quran has prophesied the plastic surgery, genetic engineering and cloning in this short and concise sentence.
ROADS IN MOUNTAINS
"And when the mountains are made to move." (81:4)
Centuries before the invention of dynamite, the holy Quran prophesied the blowing up and moving of the mountains.
NEW TRANSPORT SYSTEMS
"And when the she-camels, ten months pregnant are abandoned." (81:5)
"And He has created horses and mules and asses that you may ride them, and as a source of beauty. And He will create what you do not yet know." (16:9)

As we know people, specially those living in deserts, have now abandoned camels and other animals for travelling. But this prophecy of invention and emergence of new transport systems is on-going as we witness new and faster modes of transportation emerging all the time.
ZOO
"And when the wild beasts are gathered together." (81:6)
Nobody could ever imagine that one day wild beasts shall be captured, tamed and put together in closed and open parks. The establishment of zoo have fulfilled this prophecy.
OCCEANS LINKED
"And when the rivers are made to flow into each other." (81:7)
"He has made the two bodies of water flow. They will one day meet. Between them there is a barrier; they cannot encroach one upon the other." (55:20,21)

"And He it is Who shall merge the two seas together. This palatable and sweet, that saltish and bitter. And between them He has (presently) placed a barrier and a massive partition." (25:54)

This phenomenal prophecy is an excellent proof of truthfulness of Quran. It was beyond imagination of any one living 1400 years ago to even think of linking of oceans which we see today in Panama and Suez canals.
MODERN COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS
"And when various people are brought together." (81:8)
Fast transport systems, telephone, satellite systems and internet have brought so close to each other proving the truthfulness of the holy Quran.
WOMEN’S RIGHTS
"And when the female-infant buried alive is questioned about – For what crime was she killed." (81-9,10)
Modern-day women rights and liberation associations may be brain-child of freedom-loving and egalitarian humanist / feminist people but foretold by Quran centuries ago.
BOOKS PUBLISHED AND SPREAD
"And when books are spread abroad." (81:11)
The invention of printing press and publication houses and consequently spread of books every where is one of the marvellous prophecies of the Quran made in the dark ages of ignorance and illiteracy.
EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL LIFE
"And among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and of whatever living creatures He has spread forth in both. And He has the power to gather them together whenever He pleases." (42:30)
Having discourse with aliens is still an unrealized dream, but science is progressing in that direction. The presence of extra-terrestrial life has been proved by scientists. The next step is to see them and making a link with them. No religious scripture, except Quran, even hints about this great scientific discovery.
AIR TRAFFIC SYSTEM
"And by the heaven full of tracks" (51:8)
While prophesying about modern transport systems, Quran also foretold the air-traffic system which is an essential part of aviation. A person living in desert 1400 years ago cannot talk about such advance technologies unless revealed to him by God Almighty.
AIDS
"It never happens that permissiveness overwhelms a people to the extent that they display their acts of sex shamelessly and they are not uniquely punished by God. Among them, invariably, pestilence is made to spread and such other diseases, the like of which have never been witnessed by their forefathers." (Ibn-e-Majah, Kitab-ul-Fitan)* see footnote







----------------------------------------------------------------------
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[1.1] All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

[1.2] The Beneficent, the Merciful.

[1.3] Master of the Day of Judgment.

[1.4] Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.

[1.5] Keep us on the right path.

[1.6] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

[Kai Hagbard]

I am sorry bro, my feeling is that you are stuck in speculation.

Think about it, none of the prophetical or predictable points you brought up make any significance unless you add a whole volume of elaborated material, in other words unless you read your ideas into them e.g. that corruption flourishes on land and sea, does necessarily refer to polution, but simply the corruption of man as it involves man's action over land and sea.
As Christians we are able to make the exact similar claims, Hindues will effectively be able to do the same.

So no offence brother, but I suggest that you look at the real factors, exclude the speculation when making a reasonable assessment.

I myself, have been highly in favour of speculative elements when propagating the Christian faith, whether through biblical science or prophecies.

There are of course amazing scientific facts to be found in the Bible, and there are of course significant predictions of prophecies.

However, some of the prophetic predictions, are sadly presented as significant issues of over society, which they may not, it is a matter of speculation.

If I care I can show you the predictions of satelites, the Internet, wartanks, airplaines etc within the Bible.
Some of these may of course prove to be indications of the whole picture, but rigidly to propose a particular prediction to a television or a computer may prove wrong.

In the same way, that the world is round or hangs on nothing, or the moon reflecting the sunlight, or the ancient concept of the Big Bang, and universal expansion are all significant predictions, however, they all pre-date Islam and some of them may even predate the Bible (the Summerians).

The Koran however, falls into serious fallacy as it refers to the seven earth, presumable the seven planets of the solarsystem according to significant ancient scientific observation.

Secondly, how do Muslims explain the moon and the sun following each other in a different orbit as they mark day and night? Or how about their (the sun and moon) shelters of rest or prostration infront of Allah's throne after a full orbit?

How does a Muslim explain Allah's planatery war against the demons in space?

I was surprised the Maurice Bucaille was unable to answer some of these questions, and why he even twisted a different meaning to others.

All these issues and many more present factors which rebunk the integrity of the Koran and reveal its fallacy.

What I am saying brother, is that, in case you want to take every detail so literally and predictable to modern scientific observation and occurance, you certainly need to take the scientific absurdaties with full seriousity as well, excluding the idea that they are merely poetical idioms, but actual real scientific predictions.

No offense bro, I hope

God bless

[Kai Hagbard]

FINGER PRINTS

Abdurrahman wrote:

"Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing" (14:21)

The finger prints system at borders, criminal investigation cells and immigration centres prove the fulfillment of this Quranic prophecy.

Kai writes:

But the Sura 14: 21 Actually says:

21 Together they shall all come before Allah. Then the weak will say to those who were proud: 'We were your followers. Can you help us in anything against the punishment of Allah?' They will say: 'Had Allah guided us we would have guided you. It is now the same for us whether we cannot endure or bear patiently, we have no place of refuge.'
22 And when the issue has been decided, satan will say (to them): 'The promise which Allah made you was true. I promised you, but failed to keep it. I had no authority over you except that I called you, and you answered me. Do not blame me, rather, blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me. I disbelieved in your associating me (with Allah) before.' Indeed, for the evildoers there is a painful punishment.
23 As for those who believe and do good works, they shall be admitted to gardens underneath which rivers flow in which, by the permission of their Lord, they shall live for ever. Their greeting shall be: 'Peace!'

Exactly where modern criminal cases are dealt with through fingerprints is not very obvious in this passage.

Secondly the passage seems to describe the day of judgement, and I wonder whether Allah needs to examine our fingerprints.

Abdurrahman wrote

POLLUTION
"Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what men’s hands have wrought" (30:42)

One of the interpretations of the above verse of the Holy Quran is the environmental pollution, caused by human being. And that is spread both in land and sea due to our own inventions, i.e., fumes from chimneys of factories, chemical and nuclear waste, huge traffic in the cities, noise and creation of ozone hole are manifest testimonies of the fulfillment of this prophecy.

Kai Hagbard replies:

The passage seems more to deal with the sin of man within a human society and it how effects the whole world.

Actually, the Koran seems not to predict pollution at this point, but the actual corruption of idolworship on land and sea:

41 Corruption has appeared on land and sea with what the hands of the people earned. Therefore, they taste some of what they did in order that they return.
42 Say: 'Journey in the land and see what was the end of those who were before you. Most of them were idolaters.'
43 Therefore in purity set your face to the religion, before there comes from Allah a Day that cannot be turned back. On that Day mankind will be separated.
44 Those who disbelieve will be charged for their disbelief, while the righteous are making provision for themselves
45 so that He will recompense those who believe and do righteous deeds from His bounty. He does not love the unbelievers.

Abdurrahman wrote

ESTABLISHMENT OF ISRAEL
And after him We said to the Children of Israel, 'Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people." (17:105)
Creation of Israel and gathering of Sephardic, Ashkenazi and the Jews of many other different races in Israel proves the authenticity of this prophecy and hence Quran.

Kai Hagbard replies

In other words, the Koran recognises that the current establishment of Israel is the work of God.

Secondly, this is Biblical prediction as well, thus not a credit for the Koran.

Abdurrahman wrote

GENETIC ENGINEERING
"They will alter Allah's creation." (4:120)
The holy Quran has prophesied the plastic surgery, genetic engineering and cloning in this short and concise sentence.

Kai Hagbard replies:

Actually this is not a prediction of plastic surgery, but a warning against cutting of limbs of God's creation.

Here is the passage in its full context:

117 Instead of Him they supplicate to none but females, and indeed they supplicate to none except the rebellious satan,
118 whom Allah has cursed and he (satan) said: 'Indeed, I will take to myself an appointed portion of Your worshipers,
119 and lead them astray. I shall fill them with fancies and order them to cut off the ears of cattle. I shall order them to alter the creation of Allah.' Indeed, whosoever chooses satan for a guide, instead of Allah, has surely suffered a clear loss.
120 he promises them and fills them with fancies, but what satan promises them is only a delusion.

Abdurrahman wrote

ROADS IN MOUNTAINS
"And when the mountains are made to move." (81:4)
Centuries before the invention of dynamite, the holy Quran prophesied the blowing up and moving of the mountains.

Kai Hagbard replies:

Honestly, I dont see any reference here of human effort to blow up mountains or the building of roads.
The actual passage refers to the end of the universe, when the sun, stars and mountains loose their significance.

This looks more like Allah's work than the use of dynamite.

1 When the sun is wound-up;
2 when the stars are thrown down,
3 and the mountains have been taken,

Abdurrahman wrote

NEW TRANSPORT SYSTEMS
"And when the she-camels, ten months pregnant are abandoned." (81:5)
"And He has created horses and mules and asses that you may ride them, and as a source of beauty. And He will create what you do not yet know." (16:9)

As we know people, specially those living in deserts, have now abandoned camels and other animals for travelling. But this prophecy of invention and emergence of new transport systems is on-going as we witness new and faster modes of transportation emerging all the time.

Kai Hagbard replies:

This is what I mean by speculation, as the passage does not indicate new transportsystems or modern vehicles.

As a matter of fact the text would imply that Allah created the Car, in the same way as he created the horse.

Abdurrahman wrote

ZOO
"And when the wild beasts are gathered together." (81:6)
Nobody could ever imagine that one day wild beasts shall be captured, tamed and put together in closed and open parks. The establishment of zoo have fulfilled this prophecy.

Kai Hagbard replies:

I believe the use of Zoo's and animal cages in human residence far predated the Koran, thus this passage is not a prophecy.

Secondly, the passage is much stronger in aggreement with the Bible that the endtimes will increase the wild animals present with in human residence, not because of a zoo but to hunt for food.


Enough for now, if I have time the sequel is coming later, but I hope this provides the reader with an idea of what I deem speculation.

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , the most gracious most merciful

Hi Kai

It is good that you remember to look at the context
because you christian brothers base your pillars of your religion
on much weaker evidence and omit the context in bible most time.

First do not forget this is the holy book of God.
It is not an almanac.
This are all 90 percent true you see it if you do not close your eyes.

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , the most gracious most merciful


Quran has foretold 11 planets 1400 years ago .
What are you going to say to that ?
You are goig to say : This was a dream .
What a coincidence :)))))))

http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.99/science.htm



When Joseph said unto his father : O my father! Surely I saw in a dream eleven planets and the Sun and the Moon....... ( Yusuf : 4 )

One may note the following points of immense significance.

* Qur’an does not confuse the planets (kawakib) with stars (nujm).

* Qur’an excludes Sun and Moon clearly from planets. They belong to a higher and lower order respectively. Such clear demarcation was achieved only by modern astronomy which is but a few centuries old.

* The number of planets are given as 11. We mu’mins have absolutely no doubt that it is a matter of time that modern astronomy will reach this count. Science is now in the process of gathering evidence for what it has already made indications.

[Loki]

The number of planets are given as 11. We mu’mins have absolutely no doubt that it is a matter of time that modern astronomy will reach this count. Science is now in the process of gathering evidence for what it has already made indications.

wishfull thinking Abdurrahman. As long as 11 planets aren't discovered it's bad science on Allah's behalf. Their is no such thing in today's astronomy that would indicate a eleventh or tenth planet (planet X is still under dispute to be nothing but ice).

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

Looks like you are still hard at it with your un-researched webpaste….

Quran has foretold 11 planets 1400 years ago .
What are you going to say to that ?
You are goig to say : This was a dream .
What a coincidence ))))))

http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.99/science.htm



When Joseph said unto his father : O my father! Surely I saw in a dream eleven planets and the Sun and the Moon....... ( Yusuf : 4 )

One may note the following points of immense significance.

* Qur’an does not confuse the planets (kawakib) with stars (nujm).

* Qur’an excludes Sun and Moon clearly from planets. They belong to a higher and lower order respectively. Such clear demarcation was achieved only by modern astronomy which is but a few centuries old.

* The number of planets are given as 11. We mu’mins have absolutely no doubt that it is a matter of time that modern astronomy will reach this count. Science is now in the process of gathering evidence for what it has already made indications.

First of all, you really need to get off the false Muslim mantra of thinking that the Koran is 1400 years old, because it surely is not. The oldest extant fragment of a sura is dated to a century AFTER the life and times of your “prophet”….

Hardly intact…..and hardly complete….and hardly old…

Secondly, you once again seem pretty proud of your beloved “holy” book by taking yet another one-hit wonder out from its context.

Let’s compare it to the Holy Bible….


Joseph’s Dream, Koran: (12:4-6)

Joseph’s Dream, Book of Revelation: (Gen 37:9-11)




Koran

When Joseph said to his father: "You my father that I, I saw eleven star(s) and the sun and the moon, I saw/them to me prostrating." “You, my son, do not relay/inform your dream on (to) your brothers, so they conspire/plot to you a plot/conspiracy, that the devil (is) to the human/mankind a clean evident/enemy.” And as/like that your Lord chooses/purifies you and teaches/informs you from the information's/speech's interpretation/explanation, and He completes His blessing on you, and on Jacob's family, as/like He completed it on your fathers (forefathers) before, Abraham, and Isaac, that your Lord (is) knowledgeable, wise/judicious. (12.4-6)



Holy Bible

And he dreamed still another dream, and told it to his brothers. And he said, Behold, I have dreamed another dream: And, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars were bowing themselves to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brothers. And his father rebuked him, and said to him, What is this dream which you have dreamed? Shall we indeed come to bow ourselves to the earth to you, I, your mother, and your brothers? And his brothers were jealous of him. But his father observed the word. (Gen 37.9-11)


Since you are “amazed” that the Koran could make such a statement…..you must be absolutely BLOWN AWAY to discover that the Book of Genesis originated this material thousands of years BEFORE the Koran was even penned….!


Now….that it is beyond ANY reasonable doubt as to where the authors of the Koran copied their material from, we can take a more detailed look at your one-hit ayah…


إِذْ قَالَ يُوسُفُ لِأَبِيهِ يَا أَبتِ إِنِّي رَأَيْتُ أَحَدَ عَشَرَ كَوْكَبًا وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ رَأَيْتُهُمْ لِي سَاجِدِينَ

Ith qala yoosufu li-abeehi ya abati innee raaytu ahada AAashara kawkaban waalshshamsa waalqamara raaytuhum lee sajideena

12.4 When Joseph said to his father: "You my father that I, I saw eleven star(s) and the sun and the moon, I saw/them to me prostrating."



كَوْكَبًا = “kawkaban”

“kawkaban” definition:

An Arabicized word from the Hebrew word כּוֹכָבִ “kokab” (TWOT #942a) which means star; and that ignorance of its being so has caused the Arabs to dispute respecting its formation. Masculine. Star, constellation; whiteness in the eye; dew drops that fall upon herbage in the night and become like stars; water source of a well; water; brightness of iron; sword; a nail; main part; youth in the prime of life, chief of horsemen; garden flower; asterism; tract which differs in color from the land in which it lies; youth who has attained the period of adolescence and who’s face has become beautiful; armed man; mountain; chief, lord, or prince, and horseman, or cavalier of a people. The greater part, chief part, main, gross, mass, or bulk of a thing; as of herbage, water, an army. The flower, or flowers of a garden, or meadow; toadstool, mushroom. Vehemence of heat. Place of confinement; an assembly, a company; a congregated body. It comes from the root “kaukaba”, which means to shine, glisten. It (iron) glistened; was lustrous, or bright.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, p. 2623
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 500
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT), R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, Jr., Bruce K. Waltke, pp. 425 - 426



So…..as we can all see for ourselves…..the Holy Bible is, once again, required to come to the aid of the Koran.

The Holy Bible is absolutely required to constantly correct, and clarify the interpretation of the Koran…

The Koran is a lost sheep without the Holy Bible.

Just accept this fact.

The authors of Koran did.

So can you.

BTW….you seem mighty proud of your “prophet’s” amazing abilities to copy material from the Holy Bible…




Take care…

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

One thing is for sure now.

We muslims trust Quran more than christians trust bible's' .

Though there are variations in Gospels , if the story and dream
of Joseph exist in some of the bible's' .

This does not mean Quran has taken this from bible.
It means some of the bible's' still have residues of the
true revelation.

We believe in original bible given to Jesus (pbuh).

Quran is the pure and original word of God .
If you look only at mathematical and statistical miracles
ojectively you can see that.
Something similar cannot be written by any man
1400 years ago or even today

[Loki]

One thing is for sure now.

We muslims trust Quran more than christians trust bible's' .

Wich quran?
the complete one mentioned in the hadiths?
the complete one supposenly compiled by Zaid?
the topkapi manuscripts who are forbidden to be examined?
the yemeni scriptures wich show large alterations?
the leaves Muhammed wrote upon?
or Rashad Khalifa's version (in which he omitted verses 128 & 129 of chapter 9)?

you only trust 'a quran' out of blind faith, you got nothing to proof for it, but a copy of a copy in your everyday bookstore, the quran has nothing ancient to proof for itself.

"The emphasis on the need for copies of the Qur'an to be exact has resulted in the destruction of any copies which differ from the original. Some textual critics argue that this makes an objective and scientific study on the authenticity of Qur'anic codexes virtually impossible, suggesting that this practice simply destroyed variations that had been original to the text." -- Wikipedia, Quran

Though there are variations in Gospels , if the story and dream
of Joseph exist in some of the bible's' .

ever heard critics accuse muhammed of tales of the ancient? put two and two together.

This does not mean Quran has taken this from bible.
It means some of the bible's' still have residues of the
true revelation.

if something is known before, then it can't be 'new' revelation. That's like saying today that i discovered america, and disregard the actual discovery and the civilazation that happend between the real discovery and the one claimed by me. It's ignorance... nothing more nothing less.

We believe in original bible given to Jesus (pbuh).

wich may that be? proof that 'a original' bible psychically excist other then alone in the mind of the desillusioned muslim?

Quran is the pure and original word of God .
If you look only at mathematical and statistical miracles
ojectively you can see that.

there are no miracles in the quran or it in it's name... try looking up islam miracles, either they are reaching or you'll laugh your butt of. from praying trees to 'surviving' mosque's and tomato's with Allah's name in it. the moon never split, the number 19 uses bad and trick reasoning basicilly like i said in the topic Islam has no miracles and is trying desperatly to have miracles to have a judeo-christian relation. Take notice that all claimed miracles all are 20th century invented.

Something similar cannot be written by any man
1400 years ago or even today.

how come Guru Nanak could do it? (has 22 million of ex-muslim and ex-hindu followers),
how come Baha'llu'lah could do that? (has 6 million of ex-muslim followers).

Not only similar, these are even better divinly inspired books according to these prophets

[Kai Hagbard]

Peace Abdurrahman

Abdurrahman wrote:

Hi Kai

It is good that you remember to look at the context
because you christian brothers base your pillars of your religion
on much weaker evidence and omit the context in bible most time.

Kai replies:

Oh, I, ussually take the context with full seriousity, and believe me, context study is my main focus when I study the Bible.

Two points:

If you give me credit at this point, then basically you admit that I debunked your arguments. And then again, in other words, when studying the context of the Koran, any Christian would be able to correct his Muslim brother.

Basically, because if you are so hot on context and we Christians are not, then how come I was able to correct you, by using your own book.

Would it not be the other way around then, that the Christian is the one who studies the context, while the Muslim refrains from it.

As for evidences, Christianity is the religion which stands far above any other religion when it comes to theological, historical and archeological evidences.

Think about it, we have the manuscripts, which proves the Bible to be unchanged to the very era of writing. We even have the Koran supporting the fact that the Bible was never changed.

We never burned our earliest writings due to mistakes and inconsistency, the earliest Muslims are in fact guilty of such cover-up; my question is, what did they have to hide?


Abdurrahman wrote:

First do not forget this is the holy book of God.
It is not an almanac.
This are all 90 percent true you see it if you do not close your eyes.

Kai wrote:

Please explain yourself here, are you referring to the Koranic miracles you posted? Then, if you do not close your eyes, you will become aware of, that I debunked half of them, but stopped due to time.

[H2O]

Wich quran?
the complete one mentioned in the hadiths?
the complete one supposenly compiled by Zaid?
the topkapi manuscripts who are forbidden to be examined?
the yemeni scriptures wich show large alterations?
the leaves Muhammed wrote upon?
or Rashad Khalifa's version (in which he omitted verses 128 & 129 of chapter 9)?

We can also say which Bible ?

Would you like us to start with the omitted Verses in the Bible that other bibles dont use ?

the complete one mentioned in the hadiths?/the complete one supposenly compiled by Zaid?/the leaves Muhammed wrote upon? I think here you are talking about the same thing just decided to devide it up.

http://www.nellaieruvadi.com/islam/qurantext.asp

the topkapi manuscripts who are forbidden to be examined?

How nice, and you all of a sudden you are Psychic jumping to conclusions that such a manuscipt is a different Quran. Tell you what, when the US government is able to show us where those parts of the plane is that crashed into the Pentagon we will speculate it was a missle and not a plane

the yemeni scriptures wich show large alterations?

Here is that fine article for our guests http://www.nashash.com/Khutbahs/Read/Quran_Athu.html . Show large alterations ? I would like for you to show me where on that article it says large altercations ? And you do know what a "Theory" is right ?

"There are dialectal and phonetical variations that don't make any sense in the text", says Puin. "The Arabic script is very defective - even more so in the early stages of its literature."

Is this where you got your wild imagination of the Quran that " show large alterations" ? Sounds like he is talking about defectiveness in the script not alteration. Seems he also stubled upon a dialect issue which inclines on phonetical renderings.

[Loki]

We can also say which Bible ?

you allready admit that i make a point before your rebutal

Would you like us to start with the omitted Verses in the Bible that other bibles dont use ?

the complete one mentioned in the hadiths?/the complete one supposenly compiled by Zaid?/the leaves Muhammed wrote upon? I think here you are talking about the same thing just decided to devide it up.

We had this dispute before, on the hadiths claiming that their was a completer quran in existence, one who included surah's of something about Adam, something about stoning, something about incest... all wich have been lost or eaten by a goat

the topkapi manuscripts who are forbidden to be examined?

How nice, and you all of a sudden you are Psychic jumping to conclusions that such a manuscipt is a different Quran. Tell you what, when the US government is able to show us where those parts of the plane is that crashed into the Pentagon we will speculate it was a missle and not a plane

At least the september 11 attacks gets investigations, because investigation into such historical events is a neccerary. Yet you believe that the second largest religion on earth, doesn't need to research its books too proof and astonish mankind with it's authencity... really what do you have to loose? or what do you have to hide?

the yemeni scriptures wich show large alterations?

Here is that fine article for our guests http://www.nashash.com/Khutbahs/Read/Quran_Athu.html . Show large alterations ? I would like for you to show me where on that article it says large altercations ? And you do know what a "Theory" is right ?

consider the source, read a more objective site...
http://www.geocities.com/islampencerele ... onthly.htm

and i quote:

"THE first person to spend a significant amount of time examining the Yemeni fragments, in 1981, was Gerd-R. Puin, a specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Koranic paleography based at Saarland University, in Saarbrücken, Germany.......

..... What the Yemeni Korans seemed to suggest, Puin began to feel, was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D."

"There are dialectal and phonetical variations that don't make any sense in the text", says Puin. "The Arabic script is very defective - even more so in the early stages of its literature."

Is this where you got your wild imagination of the Quran that " show large alterations" ? Sounds like he is talking about defectiveness in the script not alteration. Seems he also stubled upon a dialect issue which inclines on phonetical renderings.

[/quote]

read more then one source, and not just one that cuts and paste people out of context in order to defend it's own weakening religion.

[Liberate]

Wich quran?
the complete one mentioned in the hadiths?
the complete one supposenly compiled by Zaid?
the topkapi manuscripts who are forbidden to be examined?
the yemeni scriptures wich show large alterations?
the leaves Muhammed wrote upon?
or Rashad Khalifa's version (in which he omitted verses 128 & 129 of chapter 9)?

We can also say which Bible ?

Would you like us to start with the omitted Verses in the Bible that other bibles dont use ?

What do you mean here H2O? would you care to show us these missing verses?

If you mean why does the catholic bible have extra books to the 66 books in the protestant bible then I hope you are aware of the difference between a canon and a translation.

Those extra books were added in 1546 at the council of Trent by the RCC the original 66 books (39 old testament and 27 new testament) were ratified and part of the bible by 397AD, the books that were not included were the apocrypha, the old testament apocrypha (IE books written after Zechariah) were not deemed as inspired scripture (by jews too) even the authors of these books themselves state that there were not inspired scripture, the new testament apocrypha were not included (such as your koranic plagiarised story of Jesus making a bird out of clay (in the apocrypha the bird is killed by Jesus)) if it could not be traced to an apostle or disciple of an apostle, books were excluded that did not disagree with christian doctrine but if they didn't match the very stringent measures put forward they were discarded (I say discarded I didn't say there were burnt, to this day nearly all apocrypha can be found, just do a search on the internet; can this be said of the varying korans during Uthmann's time? Who had people physically beaten up for not giving their koranic version up for his bonfire.)

To the muslim the KJV,NKJV,NASV, NIV, GNB are all proof that there are various bibles and therefore it cannot be from God, but this ofcourse is a misunderstanding, as you are no doubt aware languages change over time, words loose their meaning take on completely different meanings(eg gay during victorian times doesn't mean gay now hence that verse in the bible of put on the gay clothing looks like something a homosexual would like to hear in this day and age), for the living word of God to be relevant to each era and to all people it ofcourse has be translated ( a pity the same cannot be said of your koran since apparently according to you it looses it's meaning from the arabic!!!)

There are two schools in the area of biblical translations, critical text manuscripts and majority text manuscripts, the KJV is based on the majority text manuscripts (IE the most available manuscripts) newer translations of the bible such as the NIV use critical textual manuscripts, (ie they utilise the oldest manuscripts at hand). None of these methods adds verses to the bible or omit verses anymore than the kjv or older versions added to the bible, it is a simple re-enactment given the available manuscripts based on either age or quantity, again not one iota of christian doctrine is changed regardless of critical text manuscripts or majority text manuscripts.

If we did not have one biblical manuscript there are over 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers for all but 11 verses of the new testament to be reconstructed.

Do we have the equivalent for the koran? oh the yemeni manuscripts that is no longer up for scrutiny for fear of what will be found??

I would like to see these missing verses of the bible that you alledge H2O or will you at this point abandon the thread as you have been doing lately?

the complete one mentioned in the hadiths?/the complete one supposenly compiled by Zaid?/the leaves Muhammed wrote upon? I think here you are talking about the same thing just decided to devide it up.

http://www.nellaieruvadi.com/islam/qurantext.asp

the topkapi manuscripts who are forbidden to be examined?

How nice, and you all of a sudden you are Psychic jumping to conclusions that such a manuscipt is a different Quran. Tell you what, when the US government is able to show us where those parts of the plane is that crashed into the Pentagon we will speculate it was a missle and not a plane

Since you like using WE, US and OUR why don't you include the proper pronoun seeing you are an american, or does islam make you anti-american? Not surprising at all, democracy and islam are oxymorons.

the yemeni scriptures wich show large alterations?

Here is that fine article for our guests

http://www.nashash.com/Khutbahs/Read/Quran_Athu.html . Show large alterations ? I would like for you to show me where on that article it says large altercations ?

This is a desperate attempt to deflect focus on what Puin said by pointing to a biased source. Christoph Luxemberg's book is coming out this December which will contain more from Puin, you will be very interested on what he has to say aside from Puin.

And you do know what a "Theory" is right ?

You do know that "HIS FINDINGS" are what led to his "Theory"?

"There are dialectal and phonetical variations that don't make any sense in the text", says Puin. "The Arabic script is very defective - even more so in the early stages of its literature."

Is this where you got your wild imagination of the Quran that " show large alterations" ? Sounds like he is talking about defectiveness in the script not alteration. Seems he also stubled upon a dialect issue which inclines on phonetical renderings.

BAH HUmbug it is defective because it doesn't make sense there is evidence of revision on the parchment itself, no diacritical dots, can't differentiate b's t's and h's...

[Ozanf]

What do you think about that?

"The word "land" appears 13 times in the Qur'an and the word "sea" 32 times, giving a total of 45 references. If we divide that number by that of the number of references to the land we arrive at the figure 28.888888888889%. The number of total references to land and sea, 45, divided by the number of references to the sea in the Qur'an, 32, is 71.111111111111%. Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today."

From http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_t ... _p4_01.php

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

OK .I will go one by one .


This is an discovery made not more than 15 years ago .It is a phenomenon in the oceans and see .
There is barrier between where sees join .
Also where salty water meats sweet water there is some type of barrier.
It is foretold 1400 years ago in the Holy Quran .

1)

055.018
YUSUFALI: Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
PICKTHAL: Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny?
SHAKIR: Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?

055.019
YUSUFALI: He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:
PICKTHAL: He hath loosed the two seas. They meet.
SHAKIR: He has made the two seas to flow freely (so that) they meet together:

055.020
YUSUFALI: Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:
PICKTHAL: There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other).
SHAKIR: Between them is a barrier which they cannot pass.

055.021
YUSUFALI: Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
PICKTHAL: Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny?
SHAKIR: Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?


2)
027.060
YUSUFALI: Or, Who has created the heavens and the earth, and Who sends you down rain from the sky? Yea, with it We cause to grow well-planted orchards full of beauty of delight: it is not in your power to cause the growth of the trees in them. (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, they are a people who swerve from justice.
PICKTHAL: Is not He (best) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sendeth down for you water from the sky wherewith We cause to spring forth joyous orchards, whose trees it never hath been yours to cause to grow. Is there any Allah beside Allah? Nay, but they are folk who ascribe equals (unto Him)!
SHAKIR: Nay, He Who created the heavens and the earth, and sent down for you water from the cloud; then We cause to grow thereby beautiful gardens; it is not possible for you that you should make the trees thereof to grow. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! they are people who deviate.

027.061
YUSUFALI: Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar between the two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, most of them know not.
PICKTHAL: Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas? Is there any Allah beside Allah? Nay, but most of them know not!
SHAKIR: Or, Who made the earth a restingplace, and made in it rivers, and raised on it mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! most of them do not know!

027.062
YUSUFALI: Or, Who listens to the (soul) distressed when it calls on Him, and Who relieves its suffering, and makes you (mankind) inheritors of the earth? (Can there be another) god besides Allah? Little it is that ye heed!
PICKTHAL: Is not He (best) Who answereth the wronged one when he crieth unto Him and removeth the evil, and hath made you viceroys of the earth? Is there any Allah beside Allah? Little do they reflect!
SHAKIR: Or, Who answers the distressed one when he calls upon Him and removes the evil, and He will make you successors in the earth. Is there a god with Allah? Little is it that you mind!


3 )

025.052
YUSUFALI: Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an).
PICKTHAL: So obey not the disbelievers, but strive against them herewith with a great endeavour.
SHAKIR: So do not follow the unbelievers, and strive against them a mighty striving with it.

025.053
YUSUFALI: It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
PICKTHAL: And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them.
SHAKIR: And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction.

025.054
YUSUFALI: It is He Who has created man from water: then has He established relationships of lineage and marriage: for thy Lord has power (over all things).
PICKTHAL: And He it is Who hath created man from water, and hath appointed for him kindred by blood and kindred by marriage; for thy Lord is ever Powerful.
SHAKIR: And He it is Who has created man from the water, then He has made for him blood relationship and marriage relationship, and your Lord is powerful.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

I appreciate you posting more Biblical material in “support” of your “holy” book…

OK .I will go one by one .


This is an discovery made not more than 15 years ago .It is a phenomenon in the oceans and see .
There is barrier between where sees join .
Also where salty water meats sweet water there is some type of barrier.
It is foretold 1400 years ago in the Holy Quran .

1)

055.018
YUSUFALI: Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
PICKTHAL: Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny?
SHAKIR: Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?

055.019
YUSUFALI: He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:
PICKTHAL: He hath loosed the two seas. They meet.
SHAKIR: He has made the two seas to flow freely (so that) they meet together:

055.020
YUSUFALI: Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:
PICKTHAL: There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other).
SHAKIR: Between them is a barrier which they cannot pass.

055.021
YUSUFALI: Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
PICKTHAL: Which is it, of the favours of your Lord, that ye deny?
SHAKIR: Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?

Sura 55 is Biblical material from start to finish.

Period.

If you do hold to the teachings described in Sura 55, then you inherently also must be taking Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior…


Take care…

[Abdurrahman]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

I appreciate you posting more Biblical material in “support” of your “holy” book…

Please see topic from the answer .
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=5880

I you find some similarities in some of the bible's'
this means they still have residues of true revelation.
Quran is accurate and original and correcting bible where it is wrong.

Take care

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

Here you will see precise description of the deep ocean darkness ,
which was not known 100 years ago . Confirmed by scientists.


"Or (the Unbelievers' state) Is like the depths of darkness In a vast deep ocean, Overwhelmed with billow Topped by billow, Topped by (dark) clouds: Depths of darkness, one Above another: if a man Stretches out his hand, He can hardly see it! For any to whom ALLAH Giveth not light, There is no light!"

[AL-QUR'AN 21:40]

http://www.nhptv.org/natureworks/nwep6c.htm

From Sunlight to Darkness
The pelagic region is divided into three zones. The top zone is the euphotic or sunlit zone. This is the ocean zone that sunlight penetrates. Because this zone gets sunlight, photosynthesis can occur and plants can grow here. The sunlit zone goes down to about 660 feet. The next zone is the dysphotic or twilight zone. Some sunlight reaches this zone, but not enough for photosynthesis to occur. The dysphotic zone goes down to about 3,300 feet. The last zone is the aphotic or midnight zone. No sunlight reaches this zone and it can reach depths of close to 20,000 feet. Sometimes people divide the midnight zone into two zones: the aphotic zone and the abyss.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

I you find some similarities in some of the bible's'
this means they still have residues of true revelation.

Wrong.

This means that the Holy Bible is the originator of the material.

Quran is accurate and original and correcting bible where it is wrong.

Wrong.

The Koran is 99% Biblical material.

The Koran can only copy previous material. The authors of the Koran made this quite clear. From start to finish, the Koran is a mere imitation, as proudly proclaimed by its authors – literally thousands of times…

I have to ask; just how could you miss this Koranic message?

You are denying the very words of your “prophet”…..

Here you will see precise description of the deep ocean darkness ,
which was not known 100 years ago . Confirmed by scientists.


"Or (the Unbelievers' state) Is like the depths of darkness In a vast deep ocean, Overwhelmed with billow Topped by billow, Topped by (dark) clouds: Depths of darkness, one Above another: if a man Stretches out his hand, He can hardly see it! For any to whom ALLAH Giveth not light, There is no light!"

[AL-QUR'AN 21:40]

You cannot even post the correct verse for your one-hit wonder ayah……gosh, what a surprise….

The Muslim propaganda sites that you hide behind, would call this 24.40….but then again….how would you know, as it is clear that you don’t even bother to read your beloved “holy” book….you have let yourself be reduced down to copying web material from others and hiding behind it…..

This is a common trait amongst Muslim’s…..and has its roots in the copying and pasting performed by their illustrious “prophet”….

Now…please exegete this ayah for us in its full context so that you will understand its Biblical origins.

You can start by telling us exactly why 24.40 is integrated into the description of the New Jerusalem (as detailed in the Book of Revelation hundreds of years prior – and then subsequently copied over into the Koran), by the authors who penned the Koran.

Tell me why the Koran goes out of its way to describe the Biblical New Jerusalem with the same descriptives as outlined in the Book of Revelation, right down to the pearly gates, Chrysolite, and the light of a lamp – which is our Lord and Savior Jesus…!

You did it again....you can't pick a single solitary ayah from your Koran without it being tied to the Holy Bible.

Hence, once again, if you want to hold to this ayah, then you also must hold to having Jesus as your Lord and Savior...!



Try reading and comprehending your Koran for once before making yourself out as ignorant…time….and…..again…


Thanks…

[H2O]

..... What the Yemeni Korans seemed to suggest, Puin began to feel, was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D."

You mind to tell us what is meant by evolving text ? Would you like us to show you the evolving text of the Hebrew of the Torah ?

Puin, who had been sent by the German .....and his preliminary inspection also revealed unconventional verse orderings..

Thats nothing new.

Volumn 006, Book 061, Hadith Number 515. (Bukhari and same reported Muslim)
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Yusuf bin Mahk : While I was with 'Aisha, the mother of the Believers, a person from Iraq came and asked, "What type of shroud is the best?" 'Aisha said, "May Allah be merciful to you! What does it matter?" He said, "O mother of the Believers! Show me (the copy of) your Qur'an," She said, "Why?" He said, "In order to compile and arrange the Qur'an according to it, for people recite it with its Suras not in proper order." 'Aisha said, "What does it matter which part of it you read first? (Be informed) that the first thing that was revealed thereof was a Sura from Al-Mufassal, and in it was mentioned Paradise and the Fire. When the people embraced Islam, the Verses regarding legal and illegal things were revealed. If the first thing to be revealed was: 'Do not drink alcoholic drinks.' people would have said, 'We will never leave alcoholic drinks,' and if there had been revealed, 'Do not commit illegal sexual intercourse, 'they would have said, 'We will never give up illegal sexual intercourse.' While I was a young girl of playing age, the following Verse was revealed in Mecca to Muhammad: 'Nay! But the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and more bitter.' (54.46) Sura Al-Baqara (The Cow) and Surat An-Nisa (The Women) were revealed while I was with him." Then 'Aisha took out the copy of the Qur'an for the man and dictated to him the Verses of the Suras (in their proper order).

Lets continue on some other interesting issues on that website:

...minor textual variations...

So lets see, that article claims "evolving text" but yet says "minor textual variations". In one whole nut shell its an evolving text with minor textual variations.

Their variant readings and verse orders are all very significant. Everybody agrees on that. These manuscripts say that the early history of the Koranic text is much more of an open question than many have suspected: the text was less stable, and therefore had less authority, than has always been claimed

All I am reading is text text text, reading reading reading, dialect dialect dialect. I would like them to show word phrase differences.

Not all the Christians think this way about the Bible, however, and in fact, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam (1981) points out, "the closest analogue in Christian belief to the role of the Kur'an in Muslim belief is not the Bible, but Christ." If Christ is the Word of God made flesh, the Koran is the Word of God made text, and questioning its sanctity or authority is thus considered an outright attack on Islam -- as Salman Rushdie knows all too well.

What is the meaning of the word "Quran" it means "Recitation" or Something that is recited. It doesnt mean text or denote anything of a text and is not parallel with the Christian concept of Jesus as the word of G-d that became flesh.

The Quran are words, words have no physical nature in which text only expresses such words. Muhammad was revealed Quran to his mind and heart not as a text.

...a historian of early Islam currently based at the Institute for Advanced Study, in Princeton, New Jersey, published an article in which she argued that elucidating problematic passages in the Koranic text is likely to be made possible only by "abandoning the conventional account of how the Qur'an was born." And since 1991 James Bellamy, of the University of Michigan, has proposed in the Journal of the American Oriental Society a series of "emendations to the text of the Koran" -- changes that from the orthodox Muslim perspective amount to copyediting God....

Why didnt they say "emendations to the words of the Koran" ? If this is all about text they are making a laughing stock of themselves as to "how the Qur'an was born" which is remote from being a text in its original nature.

Crone is one of the most iconoclastic of these scholars. During the 1970s and 1980s she wrote and collaborated on several books -- most notoriously, with Michael Cook, Hagarism: The Making of the Islamic World (1977) -- that made radical arguments about the origins of Islam and the writing of Islamic history. Among Hagarism's controversial claims were suggestions that the text of the Koran came into being later than is now believed ("There is no hard evidence for the existence of the Koran in any form before the last decade of the seventh century");

Hmm somebody is getting warm, but then later gets cold, while others are freezing.

the nineteenth-century Orientalist William Muir, for example, contended that the Koran was one of "the most stubborn enemies of Civilisation, Liberty, and the Truth which the world has yet known."

This had me on a roll. William Muir also confirmed the authenticity of the Quranic text that the article has in spot light.

...There is otherwise every security, internal and external, that we possess the text which Muhammad himself gave forth and used.....There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text....

Sir Williams Muir, Life of Mohamet, vol.1, Introduction

This same critic of ISlam asserts this even though the Oral transmition has been ignored.

Western researchers with a variety of academic and theological interests press on, applying modern techniques of textual and historical criticism to the study of the Koran.

There are missing something here. What about the oral transmission of the Quran. They are soo focussed on textual issues they for got about other sources.



http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel3.htm

THE Koran is a text, a literary text,

Thats not what the Quran says. It was not revealed as a text from Alllaah to muhammad like that of Moses' tablets, it is an inspiration of words infused within him.

By the end of the tenth century the influence of the Mu'tazili school had waned, for complicated political reasons, and the official doctrine had become that of i'jaz, or the "inimitability" of the Koran. (As a result, the Koran has traditionally not been translated by Muslims for non-Arabic-speaking Muslims. Instead it is read and recited in the original by Muslims worldwide, the majority of whom do not speak Arabic. The translations that do exist are considered to be nothing more than scriptural aids and paraphrases.)

SO in other words, using translations for your criticism has no authority to the original.

GERD-R. Puin speaks with disdain about the traditional willingness, on the part of Muslim and Western scholars, to accept the conventional understanding of the Koran. "The Koran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear,'" he says. "But if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense.

I would love to see these verses Puin is talking about or at least to explain in which he seriously lacks in doing. But of course for you Christians an allegation is simply good enough for proof.

How about this " The Bible is illogically incosistant with it self lacking integrity and doesnt make sense to be the word of G-d ". Now of course you all will rant and rave that "You must have the Holy Casper in order to understand scripture". See how the swing can go.

Patricia Crone, the historian of early Islam, says, "everyone took it for granted that everything the Muslims claim to remember about the origin and meaning of the Koran is correct. If you drop that assumption, you have to start afresh." This is no mean feat, of course; the Koran has come down to us tightly swathed in a historical tradition that is extremely resistant to criticism and analysis. As Crone put it in Slaves on Horses,

you have to start afresh Many muslims dont do this at all to seek flaw in scholars opinion before taking it as just as. They are subject to error just like anyone.

She must have realized something what the other Quranic textual hunters didnt see and missed. She uses the word tradition ie oral rather than text. Shes really hot on the trail.

R. Stephen Humphreys....If our goal is to comprehend the way in which Muslims of the late 2nd/8th and 3rd/9th centuries [Islamic calendar / Christian calendar] understood the origins of their society, then we are very well off indeed. But if our aim is to find out "what really happened," in terms of reliably documented answers to modern questions about the earliest decades of Islamic society, then we are in trouble.

This dude was hot. So tell me are you all still trying to find out "what really happened" ? Just remember to get your selves lots of advil.

Wansbrough applied an entire arsenal of what he called the "instruments and techniques" of biblical criticism -- form criticism, source criticism, redaction criticism, and much more -- to the Koranic text. He concluded that the Koran evolved only gradually in the seventh and eighth centuries, during a long period of oral transmission when Jewish and Christian sects were arguing volubly with one another well to the north of Mecca and Medina, in what are now parts of Syria, Jordan, Israel, and Iraq. The reason that no Islamic source material from the first century or so of Islam has survived, Wansbrough concluded, is that it never existed.

This dude was dancing on fire. He was soo hot he started freezing himself. I think we said over and over and over that the Oral Quran held preference to any written text EVEN TODAY.

Surely the best way to start is with the study of the Koran -- which promises in the years ahead to be at least as contentious, fascinating, and important as the study of the Bible has been in this century.

Verily it will be and it has. Thank you for the wonderful site artical, but we see this article in no way supporting your ideology for substantial proof. It rather encourages people as myself to scrutinize what scholars today have laid as ijma in our religion to start from the root to find what they missed or misinterpreted and misrepresented. The same scientific nature was applied to Christianity and its history of doctrine and Biblical criticism mereless rational.

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful


Why dont you say Bible is copied from Torah when you see something

similar between them .

This verse is explaining , why you are so afraid of seeing more verses .

021.018
Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us).
021.019
YUSUFALI: To Him belong all (creatures) in the heavens and on earth: Even those who are in His (very) Presence are not too proud to serve Him, nor are they (ever) weary (of His service):
021.020
YUSUFALI: They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever flag or intermit.
021.021
YUSUFALI: Or have they taken (for worship) gods from the earth who can raise (the dead)?
021.022
YUSUFALI: If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!




This verses includes description of a Black Hole , which is a new discovery


056.074
YUSUFALI: Then celebrate with praises the name of thy Lord, the Supreme!
PICKTHAL: Therefor (O Muhammad), praise the name of thy Lord, the Tremendous.
SHAKIR: Therefore glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.

056.075
YUSUFALI: Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by the places of the stars -
SHAKIR: But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;

056.076
YUSUFALI: And that is indeed a mighty adjuration if ye but knew,-
PICKTHAL: And lo! that verily is a tremendous oath, if ye but knew -
SHAKIR: And most surely it is a very great oath if you only knew;

056.077
YUSUFALI: That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable,
PICKTHAL: That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an
SHAKIR: Most surely it is an honored Quran,

056.078
YUSUFALI: In Book well-guarded,
PICKTHAL: In a Book kept hidden
SHAKIR: In a book that is protected


Best regards

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

Why dont you say Bible is copied from Torah when you see something

similar between them .

The Bible already contains the Torah.

Perhaps you need to bone-up on Christianity…..

This verse is explaining , why you are so afraid of seeing more verses .

021.018
Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us).
021.019
YUSUFALI: To Him belong all (creatures) in the heavens and on earth: Even those who are in His (very) Presence are not too proud to serve Him, nor are they (ever) weary (of His service):
021.020
YUSUFALI: They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever flag or intermit.
021.021
YUSUFALI: Or have they taken (for worship) gods from the earth who can raise (the dead)?
021.022
YUSUFALI: If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!

Please tell me which ayah in this Sura mentions the Biblical “alkitabu”….

Let me know when you locate it…

This verses includes description of a Black Hole , which is a new discovery


056.074
YUSUFALI: Then celebrate with praises the name of thy Lord, the Supreme!
PICKTHAL: Therefor (O Muhammad), praise the name of thy Lord, the Tremendous.
SHAKIR: Therefore glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.

056.075
YUSUFALI: Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by the places of the stars -
SHAKIR: But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;

056.076
YUSUFALI: And that is indeed a mighty adjuration if ye but knew,-
PICKTHAL: And lo! that verily is a tremendous oath, if ye but knew -
SHAKIR: And most surely it is a very great oath if you only knew;

056.077
YUSUFALI: That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable,
PICKTHAL: That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an
SHAKIR: Most surely it is an honored Quran,

056.078
YUSUFALI: In Book well-guarded,
PICKTHAL: In a Book kept hidden
SHAKIR: In a book that is protected

A Black hole….?

You have got to be kidding….



Again….please tell me which ayah in this Sura mentions the Biblical “alkitabu”….



I’ll be waiting for yet another avoidance from you….

[Kai Hagbard]

Kai writes:

I decided that I would debunk all the miracolous predictions proposed by Abdurrahman in this particular post.

Having already replied to half of his ideas, here I present a second post mainly replying to the supposed miracle of the water barrier.

Abdurrahman wrote:

OCCEANS LINKED
"And when the rivers are made to flow into each other." (81:7)
"He has made the two bodies of water flow. They will one day meet. Between them there is a barrier; they cannot encroach one upon the other." (55:20,21)

"And He it is Who shall merge the two seas together. This palatable and sweet, that saltish and bitter. And between them He has (presently) placed a barrier and a massive partition." (25:54)

This phenomenal prophecy is an excellent proof of truthfulness of Quran. It was beyond imagination of any one living 1400 years ago to even think of linking of oceans which we see today in Panama and Suez canals.

Kai replies:

Actually it may surprise you, that the ancient scientists and thinkers predating Muhammad with several centuries were well aware of this factor.

You need to grasp brother, that ancient science was rather significant and rather predictable in terms of what modern science would deem accurate.

The so called ‘Wather barrier’ is in scientific language referred to a ‘Pycnocline’ science and at least suggests according to research and 2400 years of observation, that we are dealing with the separation of waters of different densities due to temperature or salinity.

Thus science in this case has actually more or less proven that there is no mysterical barrier as the Koran suggests, but rather a simply natural, obvious phenomena.

The famous Pliny the Younger (1 Century) stated:

In fact the nature of water also is not deficient in marvels. Patches of fresh water float on the surface of the sea, being doubtless lighter. Consequently also sea-water being of a heavier nature gives more support to objects floating upon it. But some fresh water too float on the surface of others, cases are the river carried on the surface of Lake Fucino, the Adde on the Lake of Como, the Ticino on Maggiore, etc…

(Pliny, Naturalis Historia, Book II, CVI, 224, as per, H. Rackham (trans.), Pliny: Natural History, (Loeb Classical Library, Harvard University Press, 1967), Vol. I, p. 353)

Similar notions were already predicted by observations 5 centuries before Christ, e.g. Artistotles who clearly reveals the ancient progress in water science:

We find it maintained that rivers not only flow into the sea but originate from it, the salt water becoming sweet by infiltration. But this view involves another difficulty. If this body is the source of all water, why is it salt and not sweet. Now the sun, moving as it does, sets up processes of change and becoming and decay, and by its agency the finest and sweetest water is every day carried up and is dissolved into vapour and rises to the upper region, where it is condensed again by the cold and so returns to the earth. The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and all of it draw up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind, but not in its proper place. The place which we see the sea filling is not its place but that of water. It seems to belong to the sea because the weight of the salt water makes it remain there, while the sweet drinkable water which is light is carred up

Aristotle, Meteorologika, Book II, 354b15-30 & 355a30-355b1, as per Jonathan Barnes (trans. & ed.), The Complete Works of Aristotle, (Princeton, 1985), Vol. 1, pp 577 & 578.

Looking at the contribution of the ancient scientists and their discoveries and their postulates, we may honestly state that the waterbarrier concept as miracolous in the Koran, is debunked.

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

Dear Apple Pie

You are still loosing time with nonsense.

You have not answered my Question ?

Sorry , yes you include Torah in the bible now.

I forgot the book you call Bible is a library of books. Not a revelation

from God anymore .When I say Bible I think about the revelation given to prophet Jesus(pbuh).

What do Jews think about your including old testament in the Bible ?

They think ,new testament is a cheap copy of the old testament right?

They think they have crucified illegitimate son of Mary .

You claim they have crucified ''''GOD''''.

You have to learn Islam much better .

If you try to find evidence about

-Trinity
-Divinity of Jesus
-Crucifiction of Jesus

in the Quran , you dont have a clue about Islam and you are trying to talk like authority.

Question Again :

WHY IS IT NO PROOF THAT N.TESTAMENT IS A COPY OF O.TESTAMENT , WHEN YOU FIND A SIMILARITY BETWEEN THEM ?
ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC , NEW TESTAMENT IS A COPY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT .BECAUSE YOU TRY TO JUDGE QURAN
WITH SAME LOGIC .

I will answer to you later Kai .

Regards

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

Title:

An Indian King Witness of Moon Splitting (Miracle of Prophet Muhammad PBUH)

Article:

WITNESS OF MOON SPLITTING (A MIRACLE OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH ))

CHAKRAWATI FARMAS KING OF MALABAR, INDIA

The incident relating to King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India Office Library, London, which has reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173. It was quoted in the book "Muhammad Rasulullah," by M. Hamidullah:

"There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messanger of God from Arabia (Detail given bellow), he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the "Indian king" was piously visited for many centuries."

The old manuscript in the 'India Office Library' contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel[1].

The king spent weeks in seclusion. In the midst of his quiet life, he set out on the journey along with the Arab travelers who'd promised him earlier. On the way, they stopped by Koylandi and from there to Dharmapatnam where they halted for 3 days. Then they set out to Shehr Muqalla. On reaching there, they set for the Hajj pilgrimage and thereafter returned to Malabar. He aspired to spread the message of Islam. But on the way, he fell sick and breathed his last.

A tradition of the Holy Prophet has also been reported from one of the companions, Abu Saeed al Kaudri, regarding the arrival of Cheraman Perumel. "A king from India presented the Messenger of Allah with a bottle of pickle that had ginger in it. The Holy Prophet distributed it among his companions. I also received a piece to eat ". (Hakim reports in 'Al Musthadrak )

Umar Qazi's poem on Cheraman Perumal.
Umar Qazi was well aware of the story of Cheraman Perumal - the first Indian to accept Islam. He narrates it thus in one of his poems inscribed on the walls of Ponnani Juma Masjid.

Kodungallur was a center of festivals established by the great Emperor Cheraman Perumal .....
The major part of all the minor kingdoms were under his rule ...
As such, one day he saw he saw the moon split into two (a miracle of Holy Prophet performed in Arabia) on a clear cloudless night ....
As a result the love for Holy Prophet grew in his heart and he became the earliest Muslim of this nation....[2]

Moon Splitting in The Quran
The splitting of the moon is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, Surah Al-Qamar (54), Verses 1-3:

The hour drew nigh and the moon was rent in twain.
And if they behold a portent they turn away and say:
Prolonged illusion.
They denied (the Truth) and followed their own lusts.
Yet everything will come to a decision.

Moon Splitting in Hadiths
Narrated Abdullah bin Masud: "During the lifetime of the Prophet the moon was split into two parts and on that the Prophet said, 'Bear witness (to thus).' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 830)"

Narrated Anas: "That the Meccan people requested Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle, and so he showed them the splitting of the moon. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 831)"

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: "The moon was split into two parts during the lifetime of the Prophet. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 832)"

Narrated Anas bin Malik: "The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 208)"

Narrated 'Abdullah: "The moon was split ( into two pieces ) while we were with the Prophet in Mina. He said, "Be witnesses." Then a Piece of the moon went towards the mountain. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 209)"

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas: "During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle the moon was split (into two places). (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 210)"

Narrated 'Abdullah: "The moon was split (into two pieces). (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 211)"[3]

According to Maududi, the traditionists and commentators have agreed that this incident took place at Mina in Makkah about five years before the Holy Prophet's Hijra (migration) to Madinah.

The Moon had split into two distinct parts in front of their very eyes. The two parts had separated and receded so much apart from each other that to the on-lookers (in Makkah) one part had appeared on one side of the mountain and the other on the other side of it. Then, in an instant the two had rejoined. This was a manifest proof of the truth that the system of the universe was neither eternal nor immortal, it could be disrupted.

This incident indicated that huge stars and planets could split asunder, disintegrate, collide with each other, and everything that had been described in the Qur'an on the Resurrection could happen. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) invited the people's attention to this event only with this object in view and asked them to mark it and be a witness to it. But the disbelievers described it as a magical illusion and persisted in their denial. They were reproached in Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) for their stubbornness.

Other Relevant Notes
It is due to this incident about their king, the people of Malabar became the first community in India to accept Islam. Subsequently, they increased their trade with Arabs, as the Arab ships used to pass by their shores on the way to China before the advent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Malabar also had a Christian community dating back from the earliest followers of Prophet Jesus ('Isa), pbuh. St. Thomas is believed to have migrated to India and died there. This community remained untouched by later theological developments in Christianity until the arrival of Portugese traveler Vasco da Gama.

When the British were consolidating their stronghold in India, they deployed the largest naval operation (on the shores of India) against the Muslims of Malabar[4].

Predictions of the coming of a Messanger of God from Arabia
Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) was commanded by God to inform that he was not the only Messenger of God to the world [Al Qur'an 46:9]. Scholars say that there had been some 124,000 Prophet sent to the world who preached in the language of the respective people [A Qur'an 14:4]. The true religion they preached and their scriptures got corrupted with passage of time (with the exception of Al Qur'an). However, the message on the last and greatest Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) is retained till date in the scriptures of all major world religions.

The Hindu scriptures identify the greatest Prophet to come mentioning details of his birth, events of his life, his followers, etc. Some even give his Arabic name or its equivalents! This article will help creating right belief (Iman) in other religionists.

Further, it will help Muslims appreciate yet another facet of greatness of Prophet (Pbuh) and deepen their Iman. We will see here only a sample of the overwhelming evidences!

Prophet (Pbuh) Foretold in India (A) Hindu scriptures
There is no doubt that God sent Prophets (Pbuh) to people of India. There is no mention of any Indian Prophet or scripture in Holy Qur'an. But Bukhari records Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) as saying he was enjoying breeze wafting from India laden with fragrance of Tawhid (unity of God). The four Vedas (scriptures) of Hindus and their epics are said to be 5000-10,000 years old. They contain a great deal of monotheistic ideas, and of course, prophecies on Hadrath Muhammad (Pbuh).

Bhavishya Puran
This is a Sanskrit work of prophecies. The title means 'Book of the Future'. Since Hinduism is based in India it was, and still is, taken for granted that its sages will be born in India itself. Contrary to this belief the Book says that a great master will appear in a foreign country (mlechcha acharya) and live in a sandy region (marusthal). His name will be Mahaaamad. Within a short span of 18 couplets Mahaamad is mentioned five times.

There is an interesting information in Bhavishya Purana that Mahaamad would appear to Bhoj, ruler of Dhar, and say that he would establish the religion of meat eaters, by the command of Ishwar i.e. God. There is a tradition that long afterwards, Bhoj got terrified on seeing the full moon split into two. Learned men consulted holy books and told him that it was one of the signs of the Universal Master to be born in a country to the West. Bhoj sent his minister to Prophet (Pbuh) in Arabia, who named the king Abdullah. The Tomb of Abdullah is still there at Dhar...

Mahabharat
This is a Hindu epic describing the struggle and triumph of good against evil. It was written by sage Vyas who also authored Bhavishya Purana. Mahabharata says that in the last eon called Kali Yug (in which we now live) a great sage will appear with name Mahaamad. He would preach about unity of God. He will be driven away from his native place by his own folk. By him the world would get peace. (Islam means peace). Mahabharat further says that cloud will provide him shade. It is recorded in history that Buhaira, the Christian priest of Syria observed this sign with Muhammad e in his boyhood and identified him as the last Prophet anticipated for millennia.

Kalki Puran
The signs and events of the final Avatar Kalki point out to final Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh). They fit those of Muhammad (Pbuh) neatly and perfectly. They are as follows;

Kalki will appear in the last on Kali Yug and will be the guide for the entire world.

He will be born on the 12th day of the month. Prophet (Pbuh) as born on 12th Of Rabiyyul Awwal).

His parents will be: Vishnu Bhagat and Soomati meaning servant of God (the Cherisher) and peace. (Messenger's (Pbuh) father's name was Abdullah, God's servant and mother was Amina refuge giver which includes the idea of 'peace'.)

He will be with a beauty par-excellence. His body will be fragrant.

He will get wisdom on a mountain. (Messenger (Pbuh) was conferred Prophethood on Mt.Hira)

He will receive a horse from God, which will be faster than lightning. Riding it he will go around the earth and seven skies. (During Mi'raj Prophet (Pbuh) got Buraq meaning lightning and toured the entire universe.)

Kalki will split the moon. Like Bhoj, Cheraman (Zamorin) Perumal the ruler of Indian kingdom of Kerala, witnessed splitting of the moon performed by Prophet (Pbuh). After gathering the facts he sailed to Arabia and became Muslim at Prophet's (Pbuh) hand. His Tomb is near the city of Salala in Oman[5].


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] See: "CHAKRAWATI FARMAS King of Malabar India" by Dr. Z. HAQ at http://cyberistan.org/islamic/farmas.html
[2] See: "Cheraman Perumal The First Indian To Accept Islam" at http://jaihoon.com/watan/perumalfirst.htm.
[3] See: "Did Prophet Muhammad really split the moon with his index finger" at http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_split.htm
[4] See: "CHAKRAWATI FARMAS King of Malabar, India" by Dr.Z.HAQ at http://cyberistan.org/islamic/farmas.html
[5] See: "Ultimate Prophet (Pbuh) Foretold" by M. I. Liaqat Ali at http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/ ... tures.html.


http://www.understanding-islam.com/rela ... e&raid=170

[kolaz]

Im new to this site and would like to fellowship with someone, and discuss the bible. However the comments I see here appear to be uncertain, or the questions are obvious etc.

I truly believe the bible, not as a religion, because it is not a religion. It is reality. It explains why every nation is, and where it came from, the end of this age, the times we are in etc. It is the truth and shall be forever.

You may find me to be a little rough, but I cannot hear a bunch of nonsense, and opinion. If you dont read it in the bible, I dont want to here it. I offer to answer questions, as this is the best way for somebody to learn, and I dont know what people want to know, if anything.

I dont know it all, but I do understand a lot. Im not perfect but I do actually try. So if you want to know something ask me.

I am learning now, how this site works so bear with me. Im sure it is a nice site but it seems to be the most convoluted and unorganized site Ive ever seen, but Im sure my opinion will change.

So lets get it on, let the debate begin.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

Thanks for responding…

You are still loosing time with nonsense.

What nonsense….?

You have not answered my Question ?

What question was that…..?

Sorry , yes you include Torah in the bible now.

All 66 books…..

I forgot the book you call Bible is a library of books. Not a revelation

from God anymore .When I say Bible I think about the revelation given to prophet Jesus(pbuh).

The Holy Bible is the complete Revelation from the Creator God of the Universe…

The authors of the Koran made it exquisitely clear that their material is mostly rehashed and imitated Biblical material…basically repackaged for Islamic consumption…

What do Jews think about your including old testament in the Bible ?

They like it…

They think ,new testament is a cheap copy of the old testament right?

Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come.

Muslims deny the Messiah.

Christians are the only ones to fully acknowledge that He has already come…

They think they have crucified illegitimate son of Mary .

Illegitimate…?

You claim they have crucified ''''GOD''''.

The NT makes that claim….not me….

You have to learn Islam much better .

Learn Islam…..or the Koran….?

If you try to find evidence about

-Trinity
-Divinity of Jesus
-Crucifiction of Jesus

in the Quran , you dont have a clue about Islam and you are trying to talk like authority.

It is a cold, hard fact of life that all three of the above are spoken of in the Koran.

You really should take the time to know and understand the holy book upon which you are basing your eternal soul upon…

Question Again :

WHY IS IT NO PROOF THAT N.TESTAMENT IS A COPY OF O.TESTAMENT , WHEN YOU FIND A SIMILARITY BETWEEN THEM ?
ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC , NEW TESTAMENT IS A COPY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT .BECAUSE YOU TRY TO JUDGE QURAN
WITH SAME LOGIC .

Perhaps you need to step back and look at the situation.

Christians hold to the OT scriptures just as tightly as the NT scriptures. Furthermore, the NT continuously quotes from, and references the OT all the time.

The OT in the NT concealed.

The NT is the OT revealed.

Muslims think that their Koran corrects all previous scriptures (which it laughably does not)….but, they adhere to this centuries old rhetoric. This was probably started when Muslims discovered that their Koran had not been very accurately translated from Biblical Hebrew and Greek into Arabic – hence their inferiority complex manifested itself in attacking prior scriptures as being errant.

See the difference between Christianity and Islam…?

Christians claim that both the OT & the NT are fully correct. The NT does not “correct” any errors in the OT. The NT fulfills the OT.

Muslims, on the other hand, came along with their mistranslated Arabic Koran, and now they think that they can wield it to “correct and clarify” both the OT as well as the NT.

Rather than just accepting that the Koran is a failed attempt at copying and translating Hebrew and Greek into Arabic; Muslims have learned (over the centuries) to go on the offensive and attempt to use their Koran as a “tool” to “correct” and over-ride previous scriptures.

I already gave you the challenge to come forth with one, single, solitary ayah from the Koran that states that the written scriptures of God (the Holy Bible) to be in error in any way, shape, or form.

You failed in this simple request.

Why is this….?

The answer is simple…..because the Koran ONLY has HIGH praise for its source material!!!

Muslims who adhere to the Holy Bible being errant, do so out of pure ignorance that has been instilled into them for generations after generations……because it surely does NOT come from the pages of the Koran….it comes only from the minds of the ignorant….


Take care…

[H2O]

Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come.

Muslims deny the Messiah.

We muslims acknowldge Jesus the Son of Maryam as the promissed Messiah to the Jews. However we do deny the Christian concept of what the Messiah is suppose to be.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings H2O,

Thanks for sharing your comments…

We muslims acknowldge Jesus the Son of Maryam as the promissed Messiah to the Jews. However we do deny the Christian concept of what the Messiah is suppose to be.

Well said…

I appreciate the way that you worded your response as it places the sole responsibility upon Muslim rhetoric….and not upon what your Koranic scriptures state…

A simple examination of Koranic scriptures tells us the true story of who the authors understood Jesus to be…



عِيسَى = “AAeesa”

“AAeesa” definition:

Plural. Proper name; Jesus. Having a white color inclining towards black or reddish white, or white. Whiteness mixed with somewhat of red hue; whiteness in which is a mixture of clearness with slight darkness; or yellowish whiteness.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, p. 2210
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 396 - 398


Now….why in the world would Jesus have these descriptives behind His name….?



Thanks…

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

Days of the year:
365 times

Days of a month:
"days" ("ayam"/"yawmayn") = 30

Months of the year:
"shahr" = 12
[Qur'an 36:9]

Jesus and Adam:
"eesa" = "aadam" = 25

Devil and angels:
"shaytan" = "mala'ika" = 88

The world and the afterlife:
"dunya" = "aakhirah" = 115

Good and bad:
"khabeeth" = "tayeb" = 7

Life and death:
"hayah" = "mawt" = 145

Man and woman:
"rajul" = "mar'a" = 24

Living and dead:
"ahya'" = 5 < "amwat" = 6

The blind and the seeing:
"al-a'ma" = 8 < "al-baseer" = 9

Trade and interest:
"bay'e" = 6 < "riba" = 7

Prayers:
"salatihim" (of Muslims) = 5
"salawatihim" = 1

Not much contradiction:
"ikhtilafan" = 1

Numbers:
numbers in the Qur'an = 285
Corresponds to number of verses in Al-Jin chapter which ends with the word "number".

Sea and land:
"bahr" = 32, "bar" = 13
Corresponds accurately to ratio/percentage of sea and land on earth.

Darkness and light:
"dhulumat" = 23, "noor" = 37
Corresponds to average daylight and darkness hours ratio?

----------------------------------------------

The statement of "seven heavens" is repeated seven times.
"The creation of the heavens (khalq as-samawat)" is also repeated seven times.



"plant" and
"tree" is the same: 26

"payment or reward" is repeated 117 times,
"forgiveness" (mughfirah), 234 = 2x 117

"Say," we find it appears 332 times.
"they said." 332 times


faith (iman) (without genitive) is repeated 25 times
throughout the Qur'an as is also the word infidelity (kufr).

The words "paradise" 77 times
"hell" are each repeated 77 times.

The word "zakah" is repeated in the Qur'an 32 times
and the number of repetitions of the word "blessing" (barakah) is also 32.

The expression "the righteous" (al-abraar) is used 6 times but
"the wicked" (al-fujjaar) is used half as much, i.e., 3 times.

"Summer-hot" and
"winter-cold" are repeated is the same: 5.

The words "wine" (khamr) and
"intoxication" (saqara) are repeated in the Qur'an the same number of times: 6

"mind" and
"light" is the same: 49.

The words "tongue" and
"sermon" are both repeated 25 times.

The words "benefit" and
"corrupt" both appear 50 times.

"Reward" (ajr) and
"action" (fail) are both repeated 107 times.

"Love" (al-mahabbah) and
"obedience" (al-ta'ah) also appear the same number of times: 83

The words "refuge" (maseer) and
"for ever" (abadan) appear the same number of times in the Qur'an: 28.

The words "disaster" (al-musibah) and
"thanks" (al-shukr) appear the same number of times in the Qur'an: 75.

"Sun" (shams) and
"light" (nur) both appear 33 times in the Qur'an.

In counting the word "light" only the simple forms of the word were included.

"right guidance" (al-huda) and
"mercy" (al-rahma) is the same: 79

The words "trouble" and
"peace" are both repeated 13 times in the Qur'an.

The words "man" and
"woman" are also employed equally: 23 times.

Al-Salihat (Righteous deeds) 167
Al-Sayi'at (Evil deeds) 167

Al-Yisr (Facility, Relief) 36 = 12 x 3
Al-'Usr (Difficulty) 12

Al-Jahr (Saying Aloud) 16
Al-'Alaniyah (in public) 16

Al-Salaam (Peace) 50
Al-Tayibaat (Delicacies) 50

Al-Shiddah (Hardship) 102
Al-Sabr (Patience) 102

Iblees (Satan/Lucifer) 11
Al-Isti'azah Billah (seek God's refugee) 11

The word for year is sana and that occurs 19 times.

The significance of 19 here is that each period of 19 years is a repetition of all the relative positions of the Earth and the moon. This cycle was discovered by a Greek called Meton and is known as the Metonic Cycle.

The word 'alone' 1 time .

That day 70
The day of resurrection 70

Moon 27
How long does the moon’s ecliptic cycle take? 27


Mercy 114(57X2)
Merciful 114(57X2)
Gracious 57

The Horn (first blow) 5
The Horn (the second blow) 5


Dust 17
Drop 12
Hanging 6
Bite size meat 3
Bones 15
Flesh 12
Total = 65
Man 65

20 - The Stages of Creation and Man

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

Quran Soras

| --------- (114) ---------- |

Even Ayat Soras Odd Ayat Soras

|--- (60) ---| |--- (54) ---|

Even Soras # Odd Soras # Even Soras # Odd Soras #

(30) (30) (27) (27)

Even Soras # Odd Soras # Even Soras # Odd Soras #

(3460) (3504) (3051) (2776)

| |---- (6555) ----| |

|----------------- (6236) ----------------- |

[Loki]

Days of the year:
365 times

Days of a month:
"days" ("ayam"/"yawmayn") = 30

Months of the year:
"shahr" = 12

Only in roman calendar, Allah is roman now?

Moon 27
How long does the moon’s ecliptic cycle take? 27

acctually it's 28 days.

many of these supposed miracles is nothing more and nothing less then "reaching" easy answers for muslims who seek some divine confirmation and are to lazy to double check or are accepting this blindy feeding his faith with more ignorance.

On top of that, we're are all the errors in the quran?
how many times are the seasons mentioned? 5? 12? 19? does that mean that their are that much seasons? How many times are stars mentioned in the quran? does that mean that there is an X amount of stars in the heavens?

Are you willing to take every scientific number to it's utmost accuracy and compare them with the quran? are you willing to be faced with all the errors that go behind your bad reasoning?

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah . most gracious most merciful

Only in roman calendar, Allah is roman now?

No Allah is the creator of the Romans , like everything else .


http://www.sun.rhbnc.ac.uk/~uhap045/290/moon/moon.html

The period of revolution is the SIDEREAL MONTH and has mean value of 27.32166 days. The SYNODICAL MONTH is the interval of time between two identical phases and has a mean value of 29.53059 days.

(i) The line of nodes of the lunar orbit (the line of intersection of the plane of the lunar orbit with the plane of the ecliptic) has a retrograde motion ie. rotates towards the West (in the plane of the ecliptic) at a rate of /year ie. with a period of 18.60 years (nutation period). Thus the node, or point at which the Moon's orbit crosses the ecliptic, moves steadily Westward. The interval of time between the passage of the Moon through the same node is called the DRACONITIC MONTH, and is 27.2122 days. The times of the eclipses depend upon these factors.

[Loki]

Only in roman calendar, Allah is roman now?

No Allah is the creator of the Romans , like everything else .

Yes but does that mean, that Allah loves the pagan Roman calendar structure more then that of other religions like for say the judaistic calendar who did worhip God?

http://www.sun.rhbnc.ac.uk/~uhap045/290/moon/moon.html

The period of revolution is the SIDEREAL MONTH and has mean value of 27.32166 days. The SYNODICAL MONTH is the interval of time between two identical phases and has a mean value of 29.53059 days.

(i) The line of nodes of the lunar orbit (the line of intersection of the plane of the lunar orbit with the plane of the ecliptic) has a retrograde motion ie. rotates towards the West (in the plane of the ecliptic) at a rate of /year ie. with a period of 18.60 years (nutation period). Thus the node, or point at which the Moon's orbit crosses the ecliptic, moves steadily Westward. The interval of time between the passage of the Moon through the same node is called the DRACONITIC MONTH, and is 27.2122 days. The times of the eclipses depend upon these factors.

Yes i stand corrected, i mistook it with the lunar stations used by the middle eastern and the chinese people of that time.
Yet this doesn't mean that it isn't reaching of the quran... nowhere is it implied by the quran that by counting the amount of the words moon, that you will get a vague number of a lunar orbit. That is implied by mullah's, not by the quran. If you'd believe that, then you believe in those mullah's reasoning first and then in the quran.

See i do not believe in your mullah's reasoning cause it is flawed... i will repeat myself again. if i counted up words of other things like stars out of the quran, does that mean that there is an X amount of stars in the heavens?

if you go with the reasoning of your lunar orbit, then yes there would be no more ten a couple of 50 stars in heaven. Thus the quran is unscientific by the same reasoning used by you to try and make it scientific.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

I had a question regarding this…

The Horn (first blow) 5
The Horn (the second blow) 5

I’m interested to see if you can show me where these instances occur within the pages of your Koran.

I realize that this was just another one of your slavish cut-n-paste dead-end trails, however, I would like to see if you can perhaps do a little foot work on your own (a first, I realize…and I’m asking a lot, I know), and show me the ayahs that pertain to this assertion...

Thanks…

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

How are those ayahs that I requested coming along.....found them yet...?

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful


Greetings Apple Pie

When is the book you promised coming ?

You are writing a book like Quran ,Only by copying from Bible.
I have given specifications . You can get help from your friends .
You are not going to use computer , right ?

How long are we going to wait ? You remember :

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=5880

You can search word trumpet here you will see
5 times first sound 5 times second sound and
1 time 1. 2. mentioned together

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html

Yes but does that mean, that Allah loves the pagan Roman calendar structure more then that of other religions like for say the judaistic calendar who did worhip God?

Who says people of the book are pagan ?
God does not know which calendar 90 % of the world is using ?
Islamic calendar has function of moving ramadan , Hajj etc in a year as a ease for the muslims .

Yet this doesn't mean that it isn't reaching of the quran... nowhere is it implied by the quran that by counting the amount of the words moon, that you will get a vague number of a lunar orbit. That is implied by mullah's, not by the quran. If you'd believe that, then you believe in those mullah's reasoning first and then in the quran.

See i do not believe in your mullah's reasoning cause it is flawed... i will repeat myself again. if i counted up words of other things like stars out of the quran, does that mean that there is an X amount of stars in the heavens?

The information about the balance and number of the words in Quran was impossibble even to find without a computer .So Quran cannot be written by a man .

Quran is prooving it s divinity and originality as well with this balance and 19 code for the openminded thinkers .

Regards

[Loki]

Yes but does that mean, that Allah loves the pagan Roman calendar structure more then that of other religions like for say the judaistic calendar who did worhip God?

Who says people of the book are pagan ?
God does not know which calendar 90 % of the world is using ?
Islamic calendar has function of moving ramadan , Hajj etc in a year as a ease for the muslims.

i didn't say that God doesn't know wich calendar is used the most at this time in history, but should that matter? didn't he know as well that English would be the world language this time in history? then couldn't he have written the quran in english? since he's adjusting his revelation to our comforts... Allah's so trendy

and why do you think that Allah was 'revealing' the christian calendar? and not the sikh, mayan, soemerian, egyptian, babylonian, jewish or Indian calendar? did your mullah ascribed it to the christian calendar without arguments merely because it fits or did he overlook this when he made this wild claim?

but this is fictious reasoning none the less, since these numbers don't reveal anything at all.

Yet this doesn't mean that it isn't reaching of the quran... nowhere is it implied by the quran that by counting the amount of the words moon, that you will get a vague number of a lunar orbit. That is implied by mullah's, not by the quran. If you'd believe that, then you believe in those mullah's reasoning first and then in the quran.

See i do not believe in your mullah's reasoning cause it is flawed... i will repeat myself again. if i counted up words of other things like stars out of the quran, does that mean that there is an X amount of stars in the heavens?

The information about the balance and number of the words in Quran was impossibble even to find without a computer .So Quran cannot be written by a man .

Quran is prooving it s divinity and originality as well with this balance and 19 code for the openminded thinkers .

You didn't respond to what i asked did you, you just said that "it is proven" while it isn't. I'm asking you to do some research and give me the amount of times that Stars etc are mentioned, cause if one thing is proven to be unscienitific by the same reasoning you use to try and proof something scientific then your whole number theory falls into the water...

Since your not willing to do this, you force me to do it myself by using translations (so don't come nagging that i use them, cause you leave me no other choice)

Stars are mentioned
25 times in the Palmer translation
26 times in the Pickthall translation
22 times in the Rodwell translation
20 times in the Yusuf Ali translation

are there only a 20 stars in the heavens? is this science? is this revelation?

Seasons are mentioned
8 times in the Palmer translation
4 times in the Pickthall translation
6 times in the Rodwell translation
3 times in the Yusuf Ali translation

are there 8 seasons in a year? is this science? is this revelation?

and it also shows that you can manipulate the perspection of words in arabic. If someone can translate a quran using a word four times lesser then another... then a mullah can also interpretate a word as moon or whatever 4 times lesser just to fit his deceptive lies to the public.

As did i double check the posting you made, and practiclly everything is false...

Satan is mentioned in the quran gazillions of times, and not just eleven
Alone is not alone and is mentioned countless of times as well...

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

Thanks for adding your comments…

When is the book you promised coming ?

The book….?

You are writing a book like Quran ,Only by copying from Bible.

I am….?

I have given specifications . You can get help from your friends .

Specs for what….?

You are not going to use computer , right ?

What’s a computer…?

How long are we going to wait ? You remember :

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=5880

Wait for what….?

You can search word trumpet here you will see
5 times first sound 5 times second sound and
1 time 1. 2. mentioned together

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html

Then that makes 6 each…NOT 5 each like your cut-n-paste source stated…

Furthermore, I asked you to show me these ayahs – not a half-hearted effort of giving a link to a search engine.

Show me the ayahs…..



Thanks…

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

It is amazing how this prophecy came true .
It does not only predict the victory ,but also the location .




THE VICTORY OF BYZANTIUM

An astonishing prediction is found in the first verses of Surat ar-Rum, which refers to the Byzantine Empire, the eastern part of the later Roman Empire: The Byzantine Empire, which had met with a great defeat, would soon gain victory.

Alif, Lam, Mim. The Romans have been defeated in the lowest land, but after their defeat they will be victorious within three to nine years. The affair is Allah's from beginning to end. (Qur'an, 30:1-4)

These verses were revealed around 620, almost 7 years after the idolatrous Persians had severely defeated Christian Byzantium in 613-14. In fact, Byzantium had suffered such heavy losses that it seemed impossible for it even to survive, let alone be victorious again. Following their defeat of the Byzantines at Antioch in 613, the Persians seized control of Damascus, Cilicia, Tarsus, Armenia, and Jerusalem. The loss of Jerusalem in 614 was particularly traumatic for the Byzantines, for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was destroyed and the Persians seized the "True Cross," the symbol of Christianity.174 In addition, the Avars, Slavs, and Lombards also were posing serious threats to the Byzantine Empire. The Avars had reached as far as the walls of Constantinople. Emperor Heraclius ordered the gold and silver in churches to be melted and turned into money in order to meet the army's expenses. When this proved insufficient, bronze statues were melted down in order to mint more money. Many governors had revolted against Heraclius, and Byzantium was on the point of collapse.175 Mesopotamia, Cilicia, Syria, Palestine, Egypt and Armenia, which had earlier belonged to Byzantium, were invaded by the idolatrous Persians.176


The Dead Sea basin where Byzantium was defeated by Persians. Above is a satellite photograph of the region. The Lake of Lut region, which is the lowest region of the world, is 395 meter below the sea level.


In short, everyone was expecting Byzantium to be destroyed. But during this time, the first verses of Surat ar-Rum were revealed, announcing that Byzantium would triumph in 3 to 9 years. This predicted victory seemed so impossible that the Arab polytheists thought it would never come true.


On top a satellite photograph of the Dead Sea basin. The altitude of the Dead Sea could only be determined with modern measurement techniques. These measurements led to the discovery that this region is the "lowest region on the Earth."

Like all the other predictions in the Qur'an, however, this one also came true. In 622, Heraclius gained a number of victories over the Persians and conquered Armenia.177 In December 627, the two empires fought a decisive battle at Nineveh, some 50 kilometres east of the Tigris river, near Baghdad. This time too, the Byzantine army defeated the Persians. A few months later, the Persians had to sue for peace with Byzantium, which obliged them to return the territories they had taken from it.178

The Byzantine victory was completed when Emperor Heraclius defeated the Persian ruler Khosrow II in 630, recaptured Jerusalem, and regained the "True Cross" for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.179 In the end, "the victory of the Romans" proclaimed by Allah in the Qur'an miraculously came true within the verses' stated "three to nine years" time frame.

Another miracle revealed in these verses is the announcement of a geographical fact that could not have been known by anyone at that time: that the Romans had been defeated in the lowest region of Earth. This Arabic expression adna al-Ard is interpreted as "a nearby place" in many translations. However, this is not the literal meaning, but rather a figurative interpretation. The word adna, derived from the word dani (low), means “the lowest”. The word ard means “the world.” Therefore, adna al-ard means "the lowest place on Earth."

Some interpreters of the Qur'an, considering the closeness of the region in question to the Arabs, prefer the "closest" meaning of the word. However, the actual meaning indicates a very important geological fact: The Dead Sea, one of the regions in which the Byzantines were defeated in 613-14, is the lowest region on Earth.180

As stated earlier, for Christian Byzantium, the loss of the True Cross was the heaviest blow in that defeat in Jerusalem, located near the shores of the Dead Sea.



The Byzantines and the Persians actually fought at the Dead Sea basin, which is situated at the intersection point of the lands belonging to Syria, Palestine, and Jordan. At 399 meters below sea level, the Dead Sea is the "lowest" place on Earth's surface.181

However, as only modern measuring methods and equipment can prove this fact, it would have been impossible for anyone living at that time to realise this truth. Yet, the Qur'an states clearly that this region was the "lowest land" on Earth and thereby provides further evidence that it is the Word of Allah.

http://www.harunyahya.com

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

You didn't respond to what i asked did you, you just said that "it is proven" while it isn't. I'm asking you to do some research and give me the amount of times that Stars etc are mentioned, cause if one thing is proven to be unscienitific by the same reasoning you use to try and proof something scientific then your whole number theory falls into the water...

Since your not willing to do this, you force me to do it myself by using translations (so don't come nagging that i use them, cause you leave me no other choice)

Stars are mentioned
25 times in the Palmer translation
26 times in the Pickthall translation
22 times in the Rodwell translation
20 times in the Yusuf Ali translation

are there only a 20 stars in the heavens? is this science? is this revelation?

Seasons are mentioned
8 times in the Palmer translation
4 times in the Pickthall translation
6 times in the Rodwell translation
3 times in the Yusuf Ali translation

are there 8 seasons in a year? is this science? is this revelation?

I guess you know that it does not make sense to speak about translations.

No we do not know yet what all does numbers mean .

We did not know that such a miraculous balance existed in the Quran .

With this statistical balance Quran is proving it is original and unic again .

Some of the repetitions point to scientific information as a miracle .

As this is very new finding we will see more of that in the near future .

Quote:
If you really believe Holy Quran is copied from Bibles , why don't you make

a better copy with all the mathematical ,scientific and statistical specifications

You have access to internet and all the libraries .

Do this and convince all the muslims.

Done.

Quote:
If Holy Quran is written 500 years after the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) ,
It should be very easy now with the computer technology .


Easy indeed…

Do you remember now Apple Pie

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

Greetings

Here is the mathematical miracle of the Holy Quran , which is prooving again it is not written by man.

This system is also prooving miraclulously Quran is unchanged .


[b]
The miracle of the Quran resides in the very structure of its text, in its orthographic and numerical arrangement.

Chapter 74, Al-Muddathir, verses 30 to 37, says ;


(30)Dominated by Nineteen.
(31)We did not appoint except angels as the guardians of Hell and We did not designate their number except as a test for the disbelievers, to bring certainty to those who were given the Book, to cause the faith of those who believe to increase and so those who were given the Book and the believers shall not doubt and so that those who have disease in their hearts shall say 'what did God mean by this allegory?' Thus does God lead astray whomsoever so wishes and leads aright whomsoever so wishes and none knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder to mankind.
(32)No! By the moon,
(33)And the night as recedes
(34)And the morn as it shines
(35)It is indeed one of the great (miracles)
(36)A warning to mankind
(37)For any of you who wishes to advance or regress."


These verses tell us that the number Nineteen was designated by God to prove that the Quran is from God and that, as the instrument of authentication, it is a great miracle.


We shall, God willing, demonstrate, very briefly, the miracle of the Quran. We will only be able to barely skim the surface. This is God's miracle and cannot be encompassed by the entire human race and the jinn combined.


The Simple Facts.


The Quran consists of 114 chapters 114=19*6
The first chapter of the Quran is Al-Fatihah and its first
verse is the "Basmallah", written in Quranic Arabic as follows: BiSM ALLaH AL-RaHMaN AL-RaHYM. It consists of nineteen alphabetic letters. 19=19*1


The "Basmallah " consists of four words: the first, BiSM - its root is ISM - and the word ISM occurs in the entire text of the Quran 19 times 19=19*1

The second word in the "Basmallah" is ALLaH, it occurs in the entire text of the Quran 2698 times 2698=19*142

The third word AL-RaHMaN occurs 57 times 57=19*3


The fourth word AL-RaHYM occurs 114 times 114=19*6


The occurence of all the words of the "Basmallah" in multiples of nineteen demonstrates that it cannot be the product of chance alone. The probability against this being chance alone may be calculated as 1 in 19*19*19*19 or 130231 since each word is assumed to have a 1:19 chance of occurring 19 times or a multiple thereof.


The number of verses in the Quran is 6346=19*334; also the digits of the number 6346 when added laterally total 19, i.e. 6+3+4+6=19.


There are 29 initialled chapters in the Quran, that is chapters with alphabetic letters in the first verse thereof. The letters are in combinations of one to five letters and come from a pool of 14 letters.


The letters heading the initialled chapters, such as the A, the L and the M, in chapter 2 when counted in the text of the chapter and added together will give a total divisible by 19. This is true of all 29 initialled chapters in the Quran.

The significance of this is twofold. First, it demonstrates that the text of the Quran has not been tampered with; any changes to the text would cause the entire delicate system to collapse. Second, it demonstrates that the Quran is of divine origin since it is impossible to deliberately compose It in this manner. Words have specific meanings and can only be manipulated to a minor extent. Unless one is prepared to tack words with the designated letters, regardless of their meaning, together to get the number of letters required, it is impossible to deliberately compose the text to end up with the requisite number of letters and still retain a lucid meaning. An attempt to compose any text to contain a designated number of letters, the sum of which is a multiple of any specific number, will quickly demonstrate its impossibility.


The first revelation of the Quran was the first five verses of chapter 96, Al-'Alaq. These five verses consist of 19 words and 76 letters. 76=19*4


Chapter 96 is the 19th counting from the end of the Quran.


Chapter 96 consists of 19 verses and 304 letters. 304=19*16


Chapter 9, Bara'ah, is the only chapter in the Quran that is not preceded by the "Basmallah". This would make the number of "Basmallah" in the Quran 113. If one counts 19 chapters, beginning with chapter 9, one arrives at chapter 27 An-Naml; this chapter has 2 "Basmallah", one, un-numbered, at the head, and the other in verse 30, thus making the number 114 to match the number of chapters in the Quran. 114=19*6


The last revelation in the Quran, chapter 110, An-Nassr, consists of 19 words; its first verse is 19 letters.


Between the first initialled chapter, chapter 2, Al-Baqarah, and the last initialled chapter, chapter 68, Al-Qalam, there are 38 uninitialled chapters. 38=19*2


The first initialled chapter is 2 and the last is 68. If the 67 chapters are grouped into alternating initialled and uninitialled chapters they will be found to be 19 with the first group consisting of chapters 2 and 3, and the last group being chapter 68.


The ordained prayers (salat) are five, daybreak, noon, afternoon, evening and night. The number of genuflections (rak'ah) for each is, respectively, 2, 4, 4, 3, and 4. If these numbers are set side by side we get 24434. This is a multiple of 19. 24434=19*1286


The foregoing is a far from comprehensive list of simple
facts demonstrating the miracle of the Quran. Although this
evidence is more than enough to demonstrate, statistically,
that the Quran cannot possibly be the work of man, not least
because it was revealed over a period of only twenty three
years, there is much vastly more complex evidence to
establish the authenticity of the Quran and prove that It is
the very word of God.


The Less Simple Facts.


We have seen earlier that the "Basmallah" consists of four
words; each word occurs a number of times that is a multiple
of 19, specifically, 19*1; 19*142; 19*3 and 19*6. If we add
the coeficients 1+142+3+6 we get 152=19*8. There is a
special relationship between these two numbers, 19 and 8; 8
is the index of 19 in prime number theory. It is significant
that these two numbers are the only ones occuring undefined in
the Quran. Nineteen occurs at 74:30 and eight occurs at
69:17. Adding the chapter and verse numbers together we get:
74+30+69+17 = 190 = 19*10.

We stated above that there are 29 initialed chapters in the
Quran and that the initials heading the individual chapter,
when counted and added together, as the case may be, will
always give a total divisible by 19. Though this is true, it requires further clarification. There is a block of seven chapters, 40 through 46, which were revealed together and all of them are prefixed by the letters Hha, Meem. These chapters must be taken together as a block to give a total divisible by 19. However, chapter 42, Ash-Shura, is prefixed with five letters: Hha, Meem, 'Ayin, Seen and Qaf. The Hha and the Meem form verse 1 while the 'Ayin, the Seen and the Qaf form verse 2. This is significant in view of the fact that the Hha and the Meem in all seven chapters must be added together to give a number divisible by 19. God has separated them for us. The 'Ayin, the Seen and the Qaf in chapter 42 add up to a multiple of 19.


The initial Ssaad occurs in three chapters, 7, 19 and 38 as follows:


Rank Name Saads Verses Rank+Verse
7 Al-A'raaf 97 206 213
19 Mariyam 26 98 117
38 Saad 29 88 126
------ ------
152 =19*8 456 =19*24


Thus though the Ssaads in the chapters which include Ssaad in
their initials do not add up to a multiple of 19 in the
individual cases but, as shown above, they must all be added
together to get the multiple, and in order to be assured
that that is the right procedure we find that if we add the
ranking to the number of verses of all the three Ssaad chapters
we get, also, a multiple of 19.


If we look at chapter 1, Al-Fatihah, we find the following
facts:
Rank: 1; Number of verses: 7; Number of words: 29; Number of
letters: 139. Please consider the following:
Placing the first three numbers side by side we get: 1 7 29.
This number, 1729=19*91 also, when the digits are added
laterally we get 1+7+2+9=19.


We mentioned earlier that chapter 9, Bara'ah, is the only
chapter that does not open with the 'Basmallah' and that the
missing 'Basmallah' is to be found in chapter 27, An-Naml at
verse 30. If we start with chapter 9 and simply add the
ranking of the following 18 chapters thus:
9+10+11+12+....+26+27, we get a sum of 342=19*18. But what is
more astonishing is that if we count 342 words, starting with
the first word of the first verse of chapter 27, we arrive at
the missing 'Basmallah'. This cannot be coincidence, but for
good measure, the number 30 is the 19th composite (divisible)
number.


As mentioned above in the simple facts, there are 67
chapters inclusive between the first and last initialled
chapters; 67 is the 19th prime (non-divisible)number.


The Arabic letter Qaf, Q, is the first letter of the word
"Quran" and is taken to represent the Quran as indicated in
the opening verse of chapter 50, Qaf. It prefixes two
chapters, 50, Qaf, and 42, Ash-Shura; note the following:


Rank Name Qafs Verses Rank+Verse
42 Ash-Shura 57 53 95
50 Qaf 57 45 95
----- ------
114 190


Note that 114=19*6 and is the number of chapters in the Quran.


The "Basmallah" is the opening verse of all the chapters in
the Quran except chapter 9. In chapter 1 it has the number
1. In all the others it has no number; chapter 27, An-Naml,
has two "Basmallah", the opening one has no number, but the
second one, the one missing from chapter 9, has a number,
30. Thus there are 2 numbered "Basmallah" and 112
unnumbered ones in the whole Quran. This fact too is not
coincidence; it is by divine arrangement. If we assign 0,
(zero) to the unnumbered 'Basmallah' the actual number to
the numbered ones and compose a number by simply placing the
value of the 'Basmallah' in the chapter to the right of its
ranking in the Quran, we get the following:


Rank Name Verse No. Comp No.


1 Al-Fatihah 1 11
2 Al-Baqarah 0 20
3 Ali-'Imran 0 30
.
.
8 Al-Anfaal 0 80
9 Bara'ah - -
10 Yunus 0 100
.
27 An-Naml 0 270
27 An-Naml 30 2730
28 Al-Qassas 0 280
.
114 An-Naas 0 1140
---------
TOTAL 68191=19*3589


The foregoing is not fantasy; it can be verified by anyone willing to take the time and make the effort, but.......IT CANNOT BE DUPLICATED, nor, for that matter, can it be explained except as put forth in the Quran.


The explanation of this miracle is as given in the Quran; its purpose is to prove to the human race that this Quran is of divine origin. God's mercy encompasses all things and this miracle is no different. God, as a mercy, proves to us that His guidance is the truth and yet we fail to believe and accept it as such and insist on seeking guidance outside of It. We should not be surprised, on the Day of Judgment, when we finally have no alternative but to admit that It is indeed the truth and that God never breaks His word. But then it will be too late.


The foregoing is awesome and humbling in its magnitude, but is only a minute fraction of the miracle God refers to at chapter 74, Al-Muddathir, verse 35, as one of the great miracles. "It is indeed one of the great miracles." Several submitters researching the numerical structure of the Quran from the aspect of the theory of numbers and prime numbers - which we barely touched upon earlier - have made discoveries which, we are told, are scientifically incontrovertible and which cannot be dismissed as mere manipulations since the researcher has no idea where the numbers will take him and since the number of variables is large, manipulation quickly disappears as a possible explanation of the results.

O you who have eyes to see with and minds to think with, take heed! For on that Day no excuse shall be accepted. God has made the truth abundantly manifest and the choice free.


http://www.islamicproductions.com/anotherview.html

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

Greetings

Here is one more proof for you .
German scientist Peter Plichta is writer of the book GOD S secret formula

Plichta has found in Chemical elements system prime number 19 is most important number . Simply Elements are arranged by this prime number.

He found out 19 is like the signiture of God in Nature .




GERMAN FROM ORIGINAL SITE OF SCIENTIST PLICHTA


Systematik der Isotope. Die folgende Tabelle zeigt (s. Band I, S. 430), wie die 81 stabilen Elemente (also ohne 43Technetium und 61Promethium, die sich nur künstlich herstellen lassen und sofort wieder zerfallen) nach dem Kriterium der Teilbarkeiten der Ordnungszahlen in 4 Kolonnen à (1 + 19) eingeteilt sind.

19

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4 2 6 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

19 8 = 4 × 2 10 = 2 × 5 9 = 3 × 3 1
12 = 4 × 3 14 = 2 × 7 15 = 3 × 5 5
16 = 4 × 4 18 = 2 × 9 21 = 3 × 7 7
20 = 4 × 5 22 = 2 × 11 25 = 5 × 5 11
24 = 4 × 6 26 = 2 × 13 27 = 3 × 9 13
28 = 4 × 7 30 = 2 × 15 33 = 3 × 11 17
32 = 4 × 8 34 = 2 × 17 35 = 5 × 7 23
36 = 4 × 9 38 = 2 × 19 39 = 3 × 13 29
40 = 4 × 10 42 = 2 × 21 45 = 3 × 15 31
44 = 4 × 11 46 = 2 × 23 49 = 7 × 7 37
48 = 4 × 12 50 = 2 × 25 51 = 3 × 17 41
52 = 4 × 13 54 = 2 × 27 55 = 5 × 11 47
56 = 4 × 14 58 = 2 × 29 57 = 3 × 19 53
60 = 4 × 15 62 = 2 × 31 63 = 3 × 21 59
64 = 4 × 16 66 = 2 × 33 65 = 5 × 13 67
68 = 4 × 17 70 = 2 × 35 69 = 3 × 23 71
72 = 4 × 18 74 = 2 × 37 75 = 3 × 25 73
76 = 4 × 19 78 = 2 × 39 77 = 7 × 11 79
80 = 4 × 20 82 = 2 × 41 81 = 3 × 27 83

Ordnungszahlen und deren Teilbarkeit

Eine der Kolonnen besteht ausnahmslos aus Primzahlen. Die 19 als Codierungszahl ist der ordnende Faktor des Gesamtsystems. Das Element 19Kalium ist als einziges der ungeradzahligen Elemente weder Reinisotop (nur 1 Isotop) noch Doppelisotop (2 Isotope), sondern Mehrfachisotop (mehr als 2 Isotope). Alle anderen ungeradzahligen Elemente sind Rein- oder Doppelisotope. Die geradzahligen Elemente stellen die restlichen Isotopenzahlen von 3 bis 10 (Weiterführendes siehe "Das Primzahlkreuz" Band I - III, z. B. zur Rolle der Codierungszahlen 4 2 6 3).

http://www.plichta.de/deutsch/d_a_raum_und_zeit.php


------------------------------------------------------


http://www.submission.org/miracle/19-chemistry.html

The 19 pure-isotopes

The scholar clarified again that there are actually only 81 natural existing stable elements. From eighty-three theoretically possible elements, only eighty-one occur in the Nature. Nature leaves out two, which one can produce. Then the scientist found out that from these 81 natural occurring stable elements of the chemistry, nineteen are pure isotopes. Pure isotopes are chemical elements, that exist only in one isotope form, that is to say that occurs with same number of protons and neutrons . They are the elements with the atomic numbers :

9, 11, 13, 15, 21, 25, 27, 33, 39,
41, 45, 53, 55, 59, 65, 67, 69, 79, 83.

They are (19) in number. The other elements are so-called multiple-isotopes with the isotope-frequency 2, 3, 4... until 10. With astonishment, the chemist noticed that all pure-isotopes are elements with odd atomic numbers in the periodic system.

The 19 double-isotopes

With his further analysis, Dr. Plichta came upon what is called double isotopes, that is to say, elements with two "mass numbers" or isotopes. These double isotopes possess odd atomic numbers. He found out that the number of the double isotopes is also 19!


81Tl

In order to make his calculation with the odd periodic atomic numbers as conclusive as possible, Dr. Plichta had one of the odd number elements, the Potassium, excluded from his calculation. The reason for it is that, Potassium, which is coincidentally the nineteenth element in the periodic system, is a multiple-isotope. Whereas the other elements with odd atomic number are either pure-isotopes or double-isotopes.

Sura 19 of the Quran has the most complicated initial of all the initialed suras and it has the details of the important miracle of the birth of Jesus from a virgin mother.

REMARK 1 :

If we replace this category of isotopes by the suras numbers and their respective verses numbers :

Table 3: Suras and 19+1 Pure isotopes parallel


Element

symbol


Sura i.e

atom. No
Verse
even No Be 4 176
1 F 9 127
2 Na 11 123
3 Al 13 43
4 P 15 99
5 C 21 112
6 Mn 25 77
7 Co 27 93
8 As 33 73
9 Y 39 75
10 Nb 41 54
11 Rh 45 37
12 J 53 62
13 Cs 55 78
14 Pr 59 24
15 Tb 65 12
16 Ho 67 30
17 Tm 69 52
18 Au 79 46
19 Bi 83 36


813
1429
Total 813+1429= 2242

2242= 19x118

Is it a coincidence ?

Notice that the number of verses in sura 9 has to be 127, as supported by the mathematical miracle of the Quran. See appendix 24 of the Authorized English translation of the Quran.by Dr. Khalifa..

REMARK 2 :

Table 4: Suras and 19+1 Double isotopes parallel


Element

symbol


Sura i.e

atom. No
Verse
even No He 2 286
1 Li 3 200
2 B 5 120
3 N 7 206
4 Cl 17 111
5 V 23 118
6 Cu 29 69
7 Ga 31 34
8 Br 35 45
9 Rb 37 182
10 Ag 47 38
11 In 49 18
12 Sb 51 60
13 La 57 29
14 Eu 63 11
15 Lu 71 28
16 Ta 73 20
17 Re 75 40
18 Ir 77 50
19 Tl 81 29
833 1694
total = 833+1694 = 2527

2527 = 19x19x7

Notice that for the Double isotopes.

Double multiple of 19. 19X19X7

Is it a coincidence ?

2 x 19 multiple-isotopes

A look on the table of the elements is sufficient to see that there are further thirty-eight or 2 x 19 elements with even atomic numbers, which are multiple-isotopes with the isotope numbers 3,4,5 .... We cannot, in this case, take the element 4 (Beryllium) into account , since it is at the head of the series of the altogether 20 pure-isotopes and also the element No.2, Helium, does not fall into this category. Since Helium despite even atomic number is a double-isotope. The nineteen pure isotopes and nineteen double isotopes and the thirty-eight (2 x19) multiple isotopes with even atomic numbers are thus divinely linked. The divine Building Plan is supreme and perfect.

We can now recognize the important role that number 19 plays in the chemical periodic system :

38 or 2x19 pure-or double-isotopes with odd atomic numbers

and 38 or 2x19 multiple-isotopes with even atomic numbers

The pure - and double-isotopes are again divisible by 19. In fact there are:

19 pure-isotopes with odd atomic number and

19 double-isotopes with odd atomic number

With his calculations, Dr. Plichta could not fail to notice that from actually eighty-one elements of the Nature only 4 x 19 or 76 elements entered in this 19 system classifications. What about the remaining five elements ?

For their properties , the elements Potassium, Beryllium, Helium, Carbon and Lithium must set five extra-categories in the system of the elements.


Peace be with you

[Aburaees]

With all this talk of so-called miracles in the Qur'an, what miracles would you have been able to point out to me around 1000 years ago?

Many of the "miraculous" verses quoted can be interpreted in a number of different ways, the meanings twisted to agree with an idea.

Like the fetus being covered by three layers of darkness, an anatomist can identify more than three layers but muslims choose only to recognise three of them to suit the Qur'anic verse.

When an ambiguous statement is produced, it is inevitable that the passage of time would provide more opportunities to interpret the statement in light of current understanding.

What miracles could you have shown me in the Qur'an on the day after it was completed?

You have two right?

The first is that there is nothing else like it - though many would argue that the Psalms and the book of Job are similar if not superior.

The second is that there is no contradiction in it - though some would say that there are contradictions in it.

The absecnce of contradictions does not necessarily imply that a document is miraculous.

Can you find a contradiction in this post that I have written?

But the Qur'an is over 6000 verses right? So I would have to write as many verses without contradicting myself to prove my point.

But if I repeat half of them, like the Qur'an does, I can write 3000 different verses to prove my point.

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful


OK

Prove your point

Write a book like Holy Quran .

Here is another miracle discovered only with a computer .

Name of Allah and his prophet in arabic as a stamp in Quran .

http://www.bilal-prayer.com/Quran_en.html

[Aburaees]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful


OK

Prove your point

Write a book like Holy Quran .

Here is another miracle discovered only with a computer .

Name of Allah and his prophet in arabic as a stamp in Quran .

http://www.bilal-prayer.com/Quran_en.html

That graph doesn't prove a thing.

If you take the shading away and just leave the dots, I could probably join up the dots myself and make a lizard.


By the way, there have been plenty of writing comparable to the Qur'an, you just won't accept it.

The Psalms, book of Job, Bhagvad Gita.


Oh, and another thing.....

I don't have 20 years that I am willing to waste on producing a book that people will criticize for the next two thousand years. (I say waste because I would be doing it without God's authorisaton).

And if I tried to produce something like the Qur'an I would be going against the Biblical command of not attributing to God a word that he did not say.

[Apple Pie]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

Write a book like Holy Quran .

Done.

Its called the Holy Bible, and it has the Koran by the short and curlies…

[Loki]

Greetings Abdurrahman,

Write a book like Holy Quran .

Done.

Its called the Holy Bible, and it has the Koran by the short and curlies…

oh don't diminish the bible to the quran.
The bible surpasses the quran or any wannabe book for that matter.

[Apple Pie]

Agreed...Loki...

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful



Dont let me laugh

Which one is it ?


BIBLE VERSION COMPARISON CHART (only major versions)
by Terry Watkins
". . .ye have perverted the words of the living God. . ." Jeremiah 23:36

The following table lists 300 verses that have been changed in the seven most popular versions.

http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html

[Aburaees]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful



Dont let me laugh

Which one is it ?


BIBLE VERSION COMPARISON CHART (only major versions)
by Terry Watkins
". . .ye have perverted the words of the living God. . ." Jeremiah 23:36

The following table lists 300 verses that have been changed in the seven most popular versions.

http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html

That table doesn't show changed verses but different translator interpretations.

I could show you a similar table showing the differences in Qur'anic translations.

[Snipe]

Abdurr-

I am sad to see some of the defenses given here. It was too depressing for me to read on after the first page. I will pray for you friend...

Yet that link does have some interesting things on it. Most would not admit it but there are some significant changes made. That is why I only read KJV and GIV, I'm looking for an LXX to compare but hey, when time is right.

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious msot merciful

Quran is prooving time and again :

It is written by God who who knows and controls everything .




http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/ ... idden.html

A very interesting prophecy relates to the moon landing (which occurred in 1969), is it possible The Quran predicted this? Well, judge for yourself by considering the following information – Chapter 54 of The Quran is entitled “The Moon” and starts right away by giving us news about the splitting of the moon as a sign that the end of the world is drawing close.
“The moon has split and the hour has drawn closer” (The Quran, 54:1)

When did the prophecy come to pass? To answer that, one must keep the prophecy in mind: “The moon has split.” This is a metaphor. Parts of the moon have left its surface. They no longer are part of the moon. So, the prophecy does not refer to the landing on the moon or to the first step made by Neil Armstrong but to the fact that Armstrong and Aldrin collected 21 kilograms of lunar rocks to bring back to earth. The prophecy was fulfilled at the very moment the astronauts left the moon in the lunar module containing 21 kilograms of rocks that had belonged to the moon. This can be confirmed by checking the definition of “split” in any dictionary, among the definitions given by Dictionary.com are – “to divide, disunite, separate” The date this prophecy came to pass was on July 21 1969. The moment the prophecy was fulfilled is confirmed by the hour of departure of the lunar module, which left the lunar surface at 17:54:1 (Universal Time) or 1:54:1 (EDT) and as you have seen above, verse [54:1] is the verse that deals with the prophecy. Still not convinced? Lets read the following verses after (54:1) –
“The moon has split and the hour has drawn closer. Then they saw a great miracle; but they turned away and said, “Old magic.” They disbelieved, followed their opinions, and adhered to their old traditions.” (The Quran, from 54:1 to 54:3)

Here, the author of The Quran specifically states – “the moon has split”, then people will see “a great miracle”, yet they still “disbelieved”. Could the “great miracle” be the fulfilment of prophecy?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to check the time of departure yourself, see
NSDCC Master Catalog (Government Site)
Israeli Communications Site
Apollo 11 site


In another topic we see

Thirdandlong said

Here's another MIRACLE - actually several in one- for those who still don't believe :

The Race To The Moon: Historical facts :
-----------------------------------------
http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/200 ... p18s1.html
* Began in 1961 with Gagarin piloting Vostok 1 .
* On July 20th, 1969 Neil Armstrong hopped down from the
Lunar Excursion Module thus splitting the Moon's surface
For the 1 st time ..
* July 20, 1969 fell on 5th day of the 5th month of the
1389th year of the Islamic Calendar :see for yourself:
http://www.rabiah.com/convert/


Surah(=chapter) AlQamar ( =The Moon) :
---------------------------------------
* Has 55 verses .
* In verse 1 , speaks about how the moon is cleft asunder.
* 1389 verses followed that verse to the end of the Quran .
* There are 61 Surahs ( chapters) from Surah AlQamar to the
end of the Quran.

http://www.geckil.com/~harvest/quran/translations/


Look Closely At The Numbers:
------------------------------
* 55 verses , 1389 verses ....(5 th) day of (5 th) month of
the (1389 th) year of Islamic calendar .

* 1 st verse speaking about SPLITTING the Moon ....1 st man
to do so was on 5/5/1389 = 7/20/1969 .
* 61 Surahs followed .......1961 was the year man orbited
the Earth for the first time ..
* only GOD could've employed those numbers in such manner.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
ONE MORE

NUMEROLOGICAL CALCULATIONS (ABJAD) IN THE QUR'AN








Every letter in the Arabic alphabet has a numerical (gematrical) value. In other words, in Arabic every letter stands for a number. A number of calculations can be made from this basis. These are referred to as numerological (abjad) calculations or "hisab al-jumal."239 Muslims who took advantage of the fact that every letter of the alphabet represents a number have used this in a number of fields. Ilm'ul Jafr is one of these.



Jafr is the science of foretelling what is likely to happen in the future. One of the methods employed by people who engage in this is to compare symbolic forms and letters' numerological values. The main difference between "abjad" and "jafr" methods is that the former refers to what has already taken place and the latter to what is likely to take place in the future.240

This method of calculation is a form of writing which goes back several centuries and which was widely used before the revelation of the Qur'an. Everything which happened in Arab history was written down by attributing numerical values to letters thus the date of every event was recorded. These dates were obtained by adding up the particular numerical values of every letter employed.

When certain verses of the Qur'an are examined in the light of the "abjad" method, we see that a number of dates emerge which are fully in accordance with the meanings of those verses. When we see that things referred to in these verses actually happened on the dates obtained by this method, we understand that there is a secret indication regarding those events in the verses. (Allah knows best.)

The 1969 Moon Landing is Indicated in the Qur'an



The Hour has drawn near and the moon has split. (Qur'an, 54:1)

The Arabic word "inshaqqa" (split) used in the above verse is derived from the word "shaqqa," which can also be used to mean "causing something to rise, ploughing or digging the soil":



We pour down plentiful water, then split the earth into furrows. Then We make grain grow in it, and grapes and herbs and olives and dates and luxuriant gardens and orchards and meadows.
(Qur'an, 80:25-31)


As we can see, the word "shaqqa" in the above verse is not being used in the sense of "dividing into two" but of "slicing through the soil, reaping various crops." When evaluated in this sense, the meaning of the word "shaqqa" in the expression "the moon has split" (Qur'an, 54:1) can also be seen to be referring to the 1969 moon landing and the studies performed on the moon land. (Allah knows best.) In fact, there is another very important indication here: Some of the "abjad" values of certain words in this verse in Surat al-Qamar also point to the figure 1969.

One important point which needs to be stressed in this method of calculation is the likelihood of producing very large or irrelevant numbers. Despite the probability of a relevant number emerging being exceedingly small, it is striking that such a clear figure should result.

The Hour [has drawn near] and the moon has split.



Hijri: 1390, Gregorian: 1969

In 1969, American astronauts carried out research on the Moon, dug the soil up with various pieces of equipment, split it and carried specimens back to Earth.

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

That table doesn't show changed verses but different translator interpretations.

I could show you a similar table showing the differences in Qur'anic translations.

You are just another victim of the lies fabricated for naive christians Aburaees . Everyone in this forum knows there are different versions of the bible and different translations of the Quran except you .

I dont know if english is your mother tongue but if you dont know the difference of version and translation , look at the dictionary .

I am sad to see some of the defenses given here. It was too depressing for me to read on after the first page. I will pray for you friend...

Ok pray for me snipe . I will pray for you too .

But dont forget If you pray someone other than God allmighty your prayers will be in vain .

Peace

[Aburaees]

I dont know if english is your mother tongue but if you dont know the difference of version and translation , look at the dictionary .

Peace

English is my mother tongue, and thankfully my English is better than yours.

In the above sentence alone you missed out two apostrophes and you neglected to spell the word English with a capital letter.

Also, "the difference of version and translation" should have been written as; the difference between version and translation.

Criticize my English and I'll criticize your own.

[H2O]

I am still waiting for this different version of the Quran. In order to do this you need to recite the Arabic. Let us know when you find it ok.

[Loki]

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from
Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole
of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the
Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has
survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

Ubai b. Ka'b said to me, "O Zirr, how many verses did you count (or
how many verses did you read) in Surat al Ahzab?" "Seventy-two or
seventy three", I answered. Said he, "Yet it is used to be equal to
Surat al-Baqara (ii), and we used to read in it the Verse of
Stoning". Said I, "And what is the Verse of Stoning?" He said, "If a
grown man and woman commit adultery, stone them without hesitation,
as a warning from Allah, for Allah is mighty, wise". (Jeffery, "Abu
Ubaid on Verses Missing from the Quran", The Muslim World, Vol.
28.p.62).

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that it had been
revealed in the holy Quran that ten clear sucklings make the
marriages unlawful then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five
sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it
was before that time (found) in the holy Quran (and recited by the
Muslims). (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, p. 740).

It's not the first and the last hadith that makes this claim... basiclly the 'real' quran died with muhammed my friend... it's an incomplete edited book of scraps.

[H2O]

Let us know when you find other Hadeeth reported by different people confirming the hadeeths you posted

[H2O]

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from
Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole
of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the
Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has
survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

Geesh your making this to easy. This hadeeth is not even Sahih, nor is is backed up by other reports.

I guess you all havent learnt yet how hadeeths are studied.

[Aburaees]

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from
Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole
of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the
Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has
survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

Geesh your making this to easy. This hadeeth is not even Sahih, nor is is backed up by other reports.

I guess you all havent learnt yet how hadeeths are studied.

Even if we brought you a Sahih Hadith, you wouldn't accept that as proof against the Qur'an.

So what would you accept?

So far it looks like the only thing that you would accept is a verse from the Qur'an.

In fact, this as already been demonstrated.

I posted another thread "The Qur'an: Which version", where I only used Sahih Hadiths and they were rejected in favour of other Sahih Hadiths. Typical.

The other Arabic versions of the Qur'an were carefully removed from existence by the early Muslims.

Hadiths have been posted on this forum numerous times showing that a few different companions had their own unique versions.

It doesn't prove a thing to have only one existing version of the Qur'an, just that Muslims were more careful in editing their history.

Come back in 600 years and tell us Kennedy wasn't assassinated, tell us that another man was made to look like him, and you'll be laughed at by the majority.

Can't you see that God wouldn't have allowed a lie to be propagated for 600 years in advance of the truth?

God pre-empts all lies with the truth.

[H2O]

Even if we brought you a Sahih Hadith, you wouldn't accept that as proof against the Qur'an.

Have done it plenty of times even with those which are called Sahih.Your job as a ciritic is that you need to find sources that coincide with each other, not pick one in which another says differently. What your missionaries have done is merely chose that which benefits them and ignored that others that dont.

As a muslim, I am deemed to evaluate all and everything with the Quran even if it is Sahih.

Hadeeths are not the words of Alllaah nore do they hold any authority over the Quran niether equal to it. They are merely "HEAR SAY" which are themselves subject to confirmation and error.

So what would you accept?

Quran

[Loki]

Hadeeths are not the words of Alllaah nore do they hold any authority over the Quran niether equal to it. They are merely "HEAR SAY" which are themselves subject to confirmation and error.

Like the prayer ritual wich is totally in error, but you practise it everyday, because you don't know any better...

who says that ritual is right or wrong, when you yourself say, that everything in it, could and might as well be fault...

except of course "what i think muhammed said" and "what i think muhammed didn't say" fitting the 21sth century western values... instead of admitting that muhammad was a raving madman with a uncontrolable sexual urge, and some interest in religion. you have to cover that up, since it has no appeal to this day and age anymore.

pitty for the muslims that all the people aren't fools.

[Aburaees]

Even if we brought you a Sahih Hadith, you wouldn't accept that as proof against the Qur'an.

Have done it plenty of times even with those which are called Sahih.Your job as a ciritic is that you need to find sources that coincide with each other, not pick one in which another says differently. What your missionaries have done is merely chose that which benefits them and ignored that others that dont.

As a muslim, I am deemed to evaluate all and everything with the Quran even if it is Sahih.

Hadeeths are not the words of Alllaah nore do they hold any authority over the Quran niether equal to it. They are merely "HEAR SAY" which are themselves subject to confirmation and error.

So what would you accept?

Quran

So the only witness you would accept against the Qur'an is the Qur'an itself?
Any evidence that shows that the Qur'an has been changed is unlikely to be found in the Qur'an, but in the Hadiths.

According to the Qur'an there are only three daily prayers, but you use the Hadiths to insist on five daily prayers.

If I were to take Darwin's works on evolution and only accept internal evidence for it's truthfullness, ignoring external evidence like other writings and scientific discoveries, wouldn't you agree that I would be in error to take such a stance?

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

More hidden miracles in the Quran .

These will be new coincidences for the nonbelievers :)

Word donkey is mentioned many times in the Quran .

In the Lokman (31. surah) ve Cuma (62. surah) the donkey is
only mentioned animal .

chromosomes in the cells of the donkey (62 chromosomes; 31 pairs) .


Surah Nahl - Bee has 16 ayahs .

Male bee has 16 single female bee has 16 double chromosomes .

Author of the Holy Quran is The all knowing Allah .


Regards

[Loki]

In the name of Allah , most gracious most merciful

More hidden miracles in the Quran .

These will be new coincidences for the nonbelievers

Word donkey is mentioned many times in the Quran .

In the Lokman (31. surah) ve Cuma (62. surah) the word donkey is
only mentioned animal .

chromosomes in the cells of the donkey (62 chromosomes; 31 pairs) .


Surah Nahl - Bee has 16 ayahs .

Male bee has 16 single female bee has 16 double chromosomes .

Author of the Holy Quran is The all knowing Allah .


Regards

Who said it reffered to chromosomes? you? or the quran?
maybe the quran's reffering -if it really is reffering to something- to legs

cause in my definition it is, quran's reffering that a bee has 16 legs and a donkey 62. And the quran fails again !

and the quran didn't found out anything, hard research and years of years of work found out what chromosones are and how much each animal has of them, while mullah's did nothing but claiming 'the miracle of chromoses' to the quran -while chromosones have long been discovered-, and by this insulting the people who really did something in the field of science by putting their research equal to your stupid mathemathical count up of a few words claiming it allready knew what they had to confirm is insulting. because there is no vice versa in this, the quran has never ever brought new science to the world it only ripped people of and still is doing so.

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful

You start to loose control Loki .

Take it easy .

Continue to hide your head under sand .

That way perhaps you dont see and hear .


Be happy

[Loki]

say what you want
numerology is superstition my friend, not a miracle
you'll have to bring bigger guns then that
if you want to convince anyone

[Abdurrahman]

In the name of Allah the beneficent the merciful

Hi Loki

Tell me about superstition .

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewforum.php?f=101

In this forum you look like an expert of this .

Seeking guidance from fortunetellers :=)

Regards

[Loki]

In the name of Allah the beneficent the merciful

Hi Loki

Tell me about superstition .

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewforum.php?f=101

In this forum you look like an expert of this .

Seeking guidance from fortunetellers :=)

Regards

Be sure to read them again, since in one of the replies i have firmly stated that i put the revelation of the bible above any other... these prophecies that i put are repeating prophecies by many other saints in many different lifetimes, i think of it as interesting, merely because some of these are in agreeance with Biblical revelation and because i wanted other christians opinions about them... i remain agnostic and sceptic about them, i don't believe them but i don't throw it away either

maybe you do need to have superstition explained to you, i do not think that i need to pray to a stone in the middle of a desert in order to be seen by God, i don't think that throwing stones can be used to exorcise devils, or that if i sleep to long that satan urinated in my ear, or if i don't hear the church bells that satan passed gas, that church bells are from the devil, that owning a dog loses one good deed a day, or that angels don't visit houses because they don't like pictures... i can go on and on about this, since your prophet is the king of superstition... rocks runaway with his clothes and eating fly's out soup will bring cure's to diseases they brought.