It's by faith, not actions, right?

[beads]

To all of you out there who believe that salvation is not based in any way on works, but rather is solely based on your choice to believe in Jesus as your Savior, I have a question that has been bugging me for a while.

How do you reconcile your statement "Being saved is not by works - you must chose to have faith in Christ" with the fact that you making a choice is in itself an action?

from dictionary.com
choice: (noun)

1: the person or thing chosen or selected; "he was my pick for mayor" [syn: pick, selection]
2: the act of choosing or selecting; "your choice of colors was unfortunate"; "you can take your pick" [syn: selection, pick]
3: an alternative action; "what option did I have?" or "there no other alternative" or "my only choice is to refuse" [syn: option, alternative]

[Alpha]

We are not saved BY good works, we are saved UNTO good works. We must do good works to prove our faith. As for accepting Christ being a good work/action, you know through intuition that "good works" is not (in a general sens) referring to that. If you want to get technical, then yes, accepting Christ is a good work. But that is not what the Bible is talking about in its context. The "good works" the Bible is referring to is being morally good.

[beads]

you know through intuition that "good works" is not (in a general sens) referring to that.

So I'm suppose to trust my intuition to know that when the Bible says, in essense, "there is nothing you can do to save yourself," it really means that there is actually an exception to that rule? That seems dangerous. What if my intuitions are different than yours?

The "good works" the Bible is referring to is being morally good.

Can I have some Scripture to back this up, please? I can't recall off the top of my head where the Bible draws any lines between what constitutes a good work.

[newseed]

My two-cents worth:

I am saved not because I do good works,
I do good works because I am saved!

If you think about it, if one is trying to do good works to gain salvation, then that person is really doing it for him/herself because they are trying so desperately to save his/her own life. But on the other hand, one will do good works because God has saved (via Christ) him/her from eternal death and so therefore, the work is for God and His Glory.

In His Name,
Eddie

[Omega]

My two-cents worth:

I am saved not because I do good works,
I do good works because I am saved!

If you think about it, if one is trying to do good works to gain salvation, then that person is really doing it for him/herself because they are trying so desperately to save his/her own life. But on the other hand, one will do good works because God has saved (via Christ) him/her from eternal death and so therefore, the work is for God and His Glory.

In His Name,
Eddie

Hey Eddie, that's excellent!

Like you, I believe that one cannot earn salvation by good works, but a person who is genuinely a true believer will naturally produce good works.

God Bless!

[beads]

I am saved not because I do good works,
I do good works because I am saved!

Yes, I know this, and completely agree. My question is: Is faith a work? According to the definition in the first post, "choosing" is the act of selecting. If making a choice for Christ is an action, then how can we be saved by it, since actions/good works on our part do not play a part in us becoming saved?

[Omega]

Hello beads!

Do you believe that action and works are the same by definition my friend beads?

The definition of action as you quoted:1: the person or thing chosen or selected; "he was my pick for mayor" [syn: pick, selection]
2: the act of choosing or selecting; "your choice of colors was unfortunate"; "you can take your pick" [syn: selection, pick]
3: an alternative action; "what option did I have?" or "there no other alternative" or "my only choice is to refuse" [syn: option, alternative]


The definition of works by hyperdictionary.com:[n] performance of moral or religious acts; "salvation by deeds"; "the reward for good works"
[n] buildings for carrying on industrial labor; "they built a large plant to manufacture automobiles"
[n] the internal mechanism of a device

So isn't action and works different? Don't you think so beads?

As a gift given by grace from God, by receiving it freely of charge one must take action in order to receive it and that by definition is not works, however works on the other hand is what is produced by genuine faith and one would not have taken action in the fist place if one did not have genuine faith.

So works and actions differ, do you agree beads?

God Bless!

[beads]

As a gift given by grace from God, by receiving it freely of charge one must take action in order to receive it and that by definition is not works, however works on the other hand is what is produced by genuine faith and one would not have taken action in the fist place if one did not have genuine faith.

So works and actions differ, do you agree beads?

Yes! This is a great response. I see now how the statements are reconciled by those who say they've "made a choice for God." Thanks for this reply, Omega.

As a follow-up, I'd like to get your opinion on the doctrine of election, because there is a very straight line from where we have come in this thread to where a discussion on that would take us. I personally do believe in election, and if there are those out there that don't (I know there are!), I'd like to know why they believe it is unscriptural. I find it hard to believe that the words "election," "predestinate," and "foreknowledge" can appear so much in the NT, but the doctrine that they speak to end up being false.

[Omega]

Hello beads!

You ask some very interesting and good questions, and i believe with all my heart the reason being is that you are an elect of God, and are predestined to bring forth fruits and increase the harvest and usher in others into the Kingdom of God so that it may increase.

The Doctrine regarding predestination and election:Predestination is a verb which means lterally"To mark off or to choose beforehand". God chooses those whom He knows will participate in His plan for salvation and extends it to those who will respond in faith. An example of predestination in scripture occurs in Romans 8:28-30.

Romans 8:28-30- And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Paul was a persecutor of Christ since He persecuted the Christians, but we know that God chose him beforehand to spread his message to the others and gentiles to bring forth fruit.

Before Paul was converted many would have a hard time believing that this man who watched and ordered the stoning of Stephen{One of the first Christian martyrs} would one day be transformed into exactly the opposite of what he first was.

I don't know why some have a hard time believing in such doctrines when it clearly states it in the bible, unless they are unbelievers. You have been chosen as an elect, and have been predestined beforehand by God, and that is how you ended up here on this forum.

God Bless!



We have been ordained to bring forth good fruits.

[Omega]

And another comment i want to add on the doctrine of predestination and election is that one of the reasons why some find it unscriptural is because to them it sounds more like God has favoritism by choosing some and not any or all to be an elect.

God Bless!

[beads]

Thanks for these replies, Omega. I agree that the doctrine of election can be a hard pill to swallow since it makes God seem like He plays favorites. But we must believe it because it is what is taught in His Word.

Let me ask your opinion on this since I now know that you believe in election also. The Bible teaches that works don't do it for us - it must be faith. There are some (who I alluded to earlier in this thread, and I might be one.... I'm still learning, so I'm not sure) who believe that believing/choosing, is a work, so it cannot be what saves us. Those people maintain that the faith we have is not our own faith, but it is the faith of Jesus that God gives us. Thus, we start out dead in sins. God, through election/foreknowledge...., applies the faith of God to our lives (at that point we are saved). The moment we have this faith, it causes us to believe. IOW, our belief is not initiated by us (we don't chose to accept God's gift), rather our belief is initiated by God since He gave us faith.

This seems to me to be a pretty good argument, however it doesn't leave much room for the free-will argument. But on the other hand, if only the elect of God can possibly ever be saved (which we've already established), is there free will in that? Free will to choose how we live our lives? Yes. But, free will to make a choice to accept God? No, because predestination means that it was determined before the world was formed that only some would be saved.

This is all very deep and confusing. Do you have any comments that could un-muddy the waters a bit?

[Omega]

Thanks for these replies, Omega. I agree that the doctrine of election can be a hard pill to swallow since it makes God seem like He plays favorites. But we must believe it because it is what is taught in His Word.

Let me ask your opinion on this since I now know that you believe in election also. The Bible teaches that works don't do it for us - it must be faith. There are some (who I alluded to earlier in this thread, and I might be one.... I'm still learning, so I'm not sure) who believe that believing/choosing, is a work, so it cannot be what saves us. Those people maintain that the faith we have is not our own faith, but it is the faith of Jesus that God gives us. Thus, we start out dead in sins. God, through election/foreknowledge...., applies the faith of God to our lives (at that point we are saved). The moment we have this faith, it causes us to believe. IOW, our belief is not initiated by us (we don't chose to accept God's gift), rather our belief is initiated by God since He gave us faith.

This seems to me to be a pretty good argument, however it doesn't leave much room for the free-will argument. But on the other hand, if only the elect of God can possibly ever be saved (which we've already established), is there free will in that? Free will to choose how we live our lives? Yes. But, free will to make a choice to accept God? No, because predestination means that it was determined before the world was formed that only some would be saved.

This is all very deep and confusing. Do you have any comments that could un-muddy the waters a bit?

You ask excellent questions beads!

The whole concept of free will is that people have a choice to reject Gods plan of salvation and it is probable that they can.

To summarize election and predestination, they are not exactly the same concept. The elect are those chosenby God who KNOWS WILL minister the message of salvation to the Lost, whereas predestination are all who GOD KNOWS were chosen beforehand to be saved.

Since God is not limited to time or space, God using the word election and predestination is another way of explaning that He knows beforehand who will or will not be saved due to His infinite mind and him not being limited to space and time, To us in seems unfair because our finite mind, but to Him who knows already beforehand who will reject or receive Him, that is His way of describing to us that He knows all beforehand. It is not unfairness ,t is Him telling us, I know who and who will not reject me. Just as He knew Satan would rebel against Him.

It is really quite simple.

God Bless!

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[JACOB7]

We are save by the Will of God Almighty and by Faith Thru Christ Jesus Period.

For God so Love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosover believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

for by grace thru faith we are save it is the gift of God least any man shoul boast.

The sealed of the Holy Spirit is 777 which means the Will of God Almighty and Faith in Jesus our Saviour.

The sealed of man and the image of the beast is 666 which means WORK , TIME , AND FAITH. Major religions of the world does this.

If your say you save by works im sorry Meditate with the word of God John 3:16 .... No man can save himself but Jesus Christ only. Jesus is the way the truth and the life no man come to the God of Israel .

[DMP]

Hi Omega.
Just to add to what's been said concerning free will.
Men and women do have free will. They have the freedom to accept or to reject the will of God. But that's all they have.
Just my opinion.

DMP

[beads]

Men and women do have free will. They have the freedom to accept or to reject the will of God. But that's all they have.

But in light of the doctrine of election, it seems that men and women do not have this right. It seems that God has predetermined before the foundations of the world whom He has elected unto salvation. I think that people can choose to live however they want to in this world, but that salvation is not a choice they can make since the Holy Spirit will only draw some to God, and the rest have no chance of being saved because you can only become saved if the Spirit draws you.