Angels bow to Adam but Satan refuses, its a apocryphal story

[Believer]

Peace everyone,

This is from the Life of Adam and Eve, an late apocryphal work written 1000 years after the Genesis creation story

xii 1 And with a heavy sigh, the devil spake: 'O Adam! all my hostility, envy, and sorrow is for thee, since it is for thee that I have been expelled from my glory, which I possessed in the heavens 2 in the midst of the angels and for thee was I cast out in the earth.' Adam answered, 'What dost 3 thou tell me? What have I done to thee or what is my fault against thee? Seeing that thou hast received no harm or injury from us, why dost thou pursue us?'

xiii 1 The devil replied, 'Adam, what dost thou tell me? It is for thy sake that I have been hurled 2 from that place. When thou wast formed. I was hurled out of the presence of God and banished from the company of the angels. When God blew into thee the breath of life and thy face and likeness was made in the image of God, Michael also brought thee and made (us) worship thee in the sight of God; and God the Lord spake: Here is Adam. I have made thee in our image and likeness.'

xiv 1 And Michael went out and called all the angels saying:
'Worship the image of God as the Lord God hath commanded.'
And Michael himself worshipped first; then he called me and said: 'Worship the image of God 3 the Lord.' And I answered, 'I have no (need) to worship Adam.' And since Michael kept urging me to worship, I said to him,
'Why dost thou urge me? I will not worship an inferior and younger being (than I). I am his senior in the Creation, before he was made was I already made. It is his duty to worship me.'

xv 1,2 When the angels, who were under me, heard this, they refused to worship him. And Michael saith, 'Worship the image of God, but if thou wilt not worship him, the Lord God will be wrath 3 with thee.' And I said, 'If He be wrath with me, I will set my seat above the stars of heaven and will be like the Highest.'

xvi 1 And God the Lord was wrath with me and banished me and my angels from our glory; and on 2 thy account were we expelled from our abodes into this world and hurled on the earth. And 3 straightway we were overcome with grief, since we had been spoiled of so great glory. And we

4 were grieved when we saw thee in such joy and luxury. And with guile I cheated thy wife and caused thee to be expelled through her (doing) from thy joy and luxury, as I have been driven out of my glory.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/adamnev.htm



[2.34] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.

[7.11] And certainly We created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam. So they did obeisance except Iblis; he was not of those who did obeisance.

[17.61] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He said: Shall I make obeisance to him whom Thou hast created of dust?
[17.62] He said: Tell me, is this he whom Thou hast honored above me? If Thou shouldst respite me to the day of resurrection, I will most certainly cause his progeny to perish except a few.
[17.63] He said: Be gone! for whoever of them will follow you, then surely hell is your recompense, a full recompense:

Clearly the Quran contains a story from an apocryphal writing written way too late to be true.
How can the Quran be uncorrupt and true when it contains these fabricated stories??

[Scorpion]

Excellent post brother, some great information there as usual

I hope you have a happy easter and all is well so far. God bless.

[Bushmaster]

Allah says that noone bows down to anything else but him and then he tells angels to bow down before Adam...

[Scorpion]

Bushmaster, a classic example of double standards wouldn't you say?



Have a happy easter.

[newseed]

...a classic example of double standards wouldn't you say?

And don't forget about Mohammed's double standard...Muslims are allowed to marry up to four women according to the Koran but did Mohammed follow that?

In His Name,
Eddie

[Believer]

Thanks brothers for your comments, hope you all had a good Easter.
Now we're just waiting for Mulims to comment on this.

[humble_guest]

From another thread,

You are either claiming on of two things or both.

1) These accounts are apocrphyal and false, and the Qur'an has similar accounts so the QUr'an is also false.

2) The Qur'an was forged from these apocryphal texts based solely on the fact that the texts were written before the Qur'an.

To prove (1) you have to show that the accounts are indeed false. If you're saying they're apocryphal just because they don't match the Bible's accounts, then by definition you'd consider the Qur'an apocryphal and you shouldn't even be interested on whether or not any other account is similar to the Qur'an's since you already think the Qur'an contradicts the Bible and is therefore false.

2) To prove this you have to show how and when the opportunity for forgery would arise, when it happened, and reconcile this with the historical accounts of the revelation and transmission of the Qur'an. Then you would have to show that the similarity is NOT based on a third reason, which is that the accounts (where they match the divine revelation of the Qur'an) are in fact TRUE and the reason they are found in the apocryphal texts is because they are transmitted by Unitarian followers of Jesus (pbuh).

Please, read these:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... cause.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... cause.html
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.php
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/posthoc.php
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html

You’re trying to do two illogical things at once. First you’re saying that since the Qur’an and your apocryphal texts contain a similar account, then the Qur’an is copied from the texts. The reason this is illogical is because if the account is true, it doesn’t matter in which or how many texts it is contained. It’s not surprising that the account is true because it is found in a divine book that only contains truth. It shouldn’t be surprising either that a historical text records a historical truth because witnesses are apt to do just that, record events as they happened. On the other hand, if you’re trying to show that the account in the “apocryphal” texts is false solely because their manuscript has a later date than that of the Bible (not even true since you’re talking about supposed authorship instead of manuscript evidence ~325 AD), then this isn’t proof at all unless you are able to show that the account is false (and not just that the early Church fathers decided not to accept the gospels). In addition, you’d have to show that this gospel influenced the Qur’an, which will be even more difficult than showing that the Trinity is not based on the triadic godhead of Hinduism or Platonic triplets of the soul. Otherwise, anyone can say that the mere fact that these philosophies are similar means that they were copied.

Allah says that noone bows down to anything else but him and then he tells angels to bow down before Adam...

Yes after the revelation of the Qur'an it was henceforth prohibited for mankind to bow down in prostration to anything other than God. Do you actually consider a direct command from God a contradiction to His own commands? It's illogical to think that creation owes anything to the Creator. In fact, I've heard atheists argue that the reason they don't believe is because they don't think God would ask Abraham to sacrifice his son since that contradicts one of His commandments…I hope you see how irrational that line of reasoning is.

And don't forget about Mohammed's double standard...Muslims are allowed to marry up to four women according to the Koran but did Mohammed follow that?

whoever wants to understand the ruling of doing something in Islam must know all the texts connected with it. Because as ordinary Muslims, you and I are not only responsible for obeying the Qur’anic verses and hadiths we are familiar with. We are responsible for obeying all of them, the whole shari‘a. And if we are not personally qualified to join between all of its texts—and we have heard Ahmad ibn Hanbal discuss how much knowledge this takes—we must follow someone who can, which is why Allah tells us, "Ask those who recall if you know not."

The size and nature of this knowledge necessitate that the non-specialist use adab or "proper respect" towards the scholars of fiqh when he finds a hadith, whether in Bukhari or elsewhere, that ostensibly contradicts the schools of fiqh. A non-scholar, for example, reading through Sahih al-Bukhari will find the hadith that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) bared a thigh on the ride back from Khaybar (Bukhari, 1.103–4). And he might imagine that the four madhhabs or "legal schools"—Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi‘i, and Hanbali—were mistaken in their judgment that the thigh is ‘awra or "nakedness that must be covered."

But in fact there are a number of other hadiths, all of them well authenticated (hasan) or rigorously authenticated (sahih) that prove that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) explicitly commanded various Sahaba to cover the thigh because it was nakedness. Hakim reports that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) saw Jarhad in the mosque wearing a mantle, and his thigh became uncovered, so the Prophet told him, "The thigh is part of one’s nakedness" (al-Mustadrak), of which Hakim said, "This is a hadith whose chain of transmission is rigorously authenticated (sahih)," which Imam Dhahabi confirmed (ibid.).

Imam al-Baghawi records the sahih hadith that "the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) passed by Ma‘mar, whose two thighs were exposed, and told him, ‘O Ma‘mar, cover your two thighs, for the two thighs are nakedness’" (Sharh al-sunna 9.21). And Ahmad ibn Hanbal records that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "When one of you marries [someone to] his servant or hired man, let him not look at his nakedness, for what is below his navel to his two knees is nakedness" (Ahmad, 2.187), a hadith with a well authenticated (hasan) chain of transmission. The mujtahid Imams of the four schools knew these hadiths, and joined between them and the Khaybar hadith in Bukhari by the methodological principle that: "An explicit command in words from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is given precedence over an action of his." Why?

Among other reasons, because certain laws of the shari‘a applied to the Prophet alone (Allah bless him and give him peace). Such as the fact that when he went into battle, he was not permitted to retreat, no matter how outnumbered. Or such as the obligatoriness for him alone of praying tahajjud or "night vigil prayer" after rising from sleep before dawn, which is merely sunna for the rest of us. Or such as the permissibility for him alone of not breaking his fast at night between fast-days. Or such as the permissibility for him alone of having more than four wives—the means through which Allah, in His wisdom, preserved for us the minutest details of the Prophet’s day-to-day sunna (Allah bless him and give him peace), which a larger number of wives would be far abler to observe and remember.

Because certain laws of the shari‘a applied to him alone, the scholars of ijtihad have established the principle that in many cases, when an act was done by the Prophet personally (Allah bless him and give him peace), such as bearing the thigh after Khaybar, and when he gave an explicit command to us to do something else, in this case, to cover the thigh because it is nakedness, then the command is adopted for us, and the act is considered to pertain to him alone (Allah bless him and give him peace).

Peace

[Bushmaster]

Yes after the revelation of the Qur'an it was henceforth prohibited for mankind to bow down in prostration to anything other than God. Do you actually consider a direct command from God a contradiction to His own commands? It's illogical to think that creation owes anything to the Creator. In fact, I've heard atheists argue that the reason they don't believe is because they don't think God would ask Abraham to sacrifice his son since that contradicts one of His commandments…I hope you see how irrational that line of reasoning is.

Hardly! God can not go against His own nature. When commanding such thing, HE HAS A NATURE HE CAN NOT GO AGAINST. The Bible says God is Truth, thus God can not lie. God can not make sense out of nonsense. He can not draw a square which is at the same time a perfect circle because the definitions of each are contrary to each other.

For example, the questions concerning God's limits lead up to the one which asks, can God make himself human? The answer is no IF one means a human with ONLY human attributes. According to Christian thought, this is not how Jesus existed. Jesus, one person out of the Godhead, took on the form of a human, without destroying his God nature. Thus we speak of Jesus having two natures, one human and one of God. How this exactly worked, only Jesus experienced it so only He could say. Christians also believe that Jesus voluntarily put aside use of his God nature and gifts, unless directed by the God the Spirit to do so. It is for this reason Jesus, as a human could say He did not know the day of his return. I believe that had the Spirit of God told Jesus, "It is now ok to access the knowledge you have laid aside" Jesus could of gave an exact time and date of his return when asked.

I would recommend that you get a copy of Essentail Truths of the Christian Faith by RC Sproul. It is a handbook on Reformed Theology, where topics are covered in one or two pages in easy to understand English. The Omnipotence of God is covered on pages 39 and 40. Page 39 talks about false dilemmas. It also states, "The Bible indicates several things God can not do. He can not lie...He can not die. He can not be eternal and created. He can not be God and not God at the same time and in the same respect. He can not command things that go against His nature. What omnipotence does mean is that God holds all power over his creation. No part of creation stands outside the scope of His sovereign control.

[Believer]

And why would God command the angels to bow to Adam???
The Life of Adam and Eve tell us why:

xiii 1 The devil replied, 'Adam, what dost thou tell me? It is for thy sake that I have been hurled 2 from that place. When thou wast formed. I was hurled out of the presence of God and banished from the company of the angels. When God blew into thee the breath of life and thy face and likeness was made in the image of God, Michael also brought thee and made (us) worship thee in the sight of God; and God the Lord spake: Here is Adam. I have made thee in our image and likeness.'

Because God created Adam in His divine image!!!!!
Islam does not teach this!!!
...and yet the Quran tells the most irrational part of this story!

[littleshepard]

Excellent posts guys. May God be with you all!!!

[humble_guest]

Peace everyone,

Bushmaster,

The question is never what God can or can't do. That type of thinking is in itself blasphemous. That's like limiting God to human rationalization. God does what He Wills. That's why one is only to know/determine what is divinely revealed by God and to obey and believe this revelation.

Peace

[Bushmaster]

Sorry islam itself is in blasphemy when it refuses the Son. 1 John 2:22 . This is what God tells us, we don't limit God, we study His nature, He wants us to know his nature. Read the book I suggested, God is not unknowable, He wants us to know him.

[newseed]

Here's a response I got from another forum. He is using human reasoning here.

Hi servant :
feeling that you realy want the real answer , I have the honor of giving it

first nothing in the Quranic verses indicated that Adam had to be worshipped by Angles , this bowing down or prostration was made only by the order of God as a sign of honor and respect , to Adam , that new creature who had the advantage over them , that he only had the ability to learn from God , to be able to know the concept of different objects by name , that make all these things while it is a pronounced word , a symbole for , some thing , and but for this ability it was imposible for him to learn , to accept teaches and commandes from God, to comunicate with others by interlocution , learn to read and write , and in breief be fit for the mission God had asigned upon him long before his creation , that is , populating and improving and constructing the planet of earth , discovering it's natural laws , extracting it's hidden treasures , and be a vicegerent on this planet so much suitable for the life of that creature of material requirements , in fact the bowing or prostration meant much respect and glorification , to the great creator who made such a wonderful creature ,........... thank you

Your thoughts?

[Abdullah]

I think this man is right

[humble_guest]

we don't limit God, we study His nature, He wants us to know his nature. God is not unknowable, He wants us to know him.

Actually I agree with you on this point. In Islam this is called "Tasawwuf," but I'm guessing you didn't know that. And there's a difference between growing closer to God through worship and anthropomorphizing Him to conjecture about His nature.

Read:

Allah Most High says: "He who is hostile to a friend of Mine I declare war against. My slave approaches Me with nothing more beloved to Me than what I have made obligatory upon him, and My slave keeps drawing nearer to Me with voluntary works until I love him. And when I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his sight with which he sees, his hand with which he seizes, and his foot with which he walks. If he asks me, I will surely give to him, and if he seeks refuge in Me, I will surely protect him" (Fath al-Bari, 11.340–41, hadith 6502);

This hadith was related by Imam Bukhari, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, al-Bayhaqi, and others with multiple contiguous chains of transmission, and is sahih. It discloses the central reality of Tasawwuf, which is precisely change, while describing the path to this change, in conformity with a traditional definition used by masters in the Middle East, who define a Sufi as Faqihun ‘amila bi ‘ilmihi fa awrathahu Llahu ‘ilma ma lam ya‘lam,‘A man of religious learning who applied what he knew, so Allah bequeathed him knowledge of what he did not know.’

To clarify, a Sufi is a man of religious learning,because the hadith says, "My slave approaches Me with nothing more beloved to Me than what I have made obligatory upon him," and only through learning can the Sufi know the command of Allah, or what has been made obligatory for him. He has applied what he knew, because the hadith says he not only approaches Allah with the obligatory, but "keeps drawing nearer to Me with voluntary works until I love him." And in turn, Allah bequeathed him knowledge of what he did not know, because the hadith says, "And when I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his sight with which he sees, his hand with which he seizes, and his foot with which he walks," which is a metaphor for the consummate awareness of tawhid, or the ‘unity of Allah,’ which in the context of human actions such as hearing, sight, seizing, and walking, consists of realizing the words of the Qur'an about Allah that,

"It is He who created you and what you do" (Qur'an 37:96).

How central is Tasawwuf to the religion, and: Where does it fit into Islam as a whole? Perhaps the best answer is the hadith of Muslim, that ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab said:

As we sat one day with the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace), a man in pure white clothing and jet black hair came to us, without a trace of travelling upon him, though none of us knew him.

He sat down before the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) bracing his knees against his, resting his hands on his legs, and said: "Muhammad, tell me about Islam." The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: "Islam is to testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and to perform the prayer, give zakat, fast in Ramadan, and perform the pilgrimage to the House if you can find a way."

He said: "You have spoken the truth," and we were surprised that he should ask and then confirm the answer. Then he said: "Tell me about true faith (iman)," and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) answered: "It is to believe in Allah, His angels, His inspired Books, His messengers, the Last Day, and in destiny, its good and evil."

"You have spoken the truth," he said, "Now tell me about the perfection of faith (ihsan)," and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) answered: "It is to worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you see Him not, He nevertheless sees you."

The hadith continues to where ‘Umar said:

Then the visitor left. I waited a long while, and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said to me, "Do you know, ‘Umar, who was the questioner?" and I replied, "Allah and His messenger know best." He said,

"It was Gabriel, who came to you to teach you your religion" (Sahih Muslim, 1.37: hadith 8 ).

This is a sahih hadith, described by Imam Nawawi as one of the hadiths upon which the Islamic religion turns. The use of din in the last words of it, Atakum yu‘allimukum dinakum, "came to you to teach you your religion" entails that the religion of Islam is composed of the three fundamentals mentioned in the hadith: Islam, or external compliance with what Allah asks of us; Iman, or the belief in the unseen that the prophets have informed us of; and Ihsan, or to worship Allah as though one sees Him.

Now, it is characteristic of the Islamic ethic that human actions are not simply divided into two shades of morality, right or wrong; but rather five, arranged in order of their consequences in the next world. The obligatory (wajib) is that whose performance is rewarded by Allah in the next life and whose nonperformance is punished. The recommended (mandub) is that whose performance is rewarded, but whose nonperformance is not punished. The permissible (mubah) is indifferent, unconnected with either reward or punishment. The offensive (makruh) is that whose nonperformance is rewarded but whose performance is not punished. The unlawful (haram) is that whose nonperformance is rewarded and whose performance is punished, if one dies unrepentant.

Human states of the heart, the Qur'an and sunna make plain to us, come under each of these headings. Yet they are not dealt with in books of fiqh or ‘Islamic jurisprudence,’ because unlike the prayer, zakat, or fasting, they are not quantifiable in terms of the specific amount of them that must be done. But though they are not countable, they are of the utmost importance to every Muslim. Let’s look at a few examples.

(1) Love of Allah. In Surat al-Baqara of the Qur'an, Allah blames those who ascribe associates to Allah whom they love as much as they love Allah. Then He says,

"And those who believe are greater in love for Allah" (Qur'an 2:165), making being a believer conditional upon having greater love for Allah than any other.

(2) Mercy. Bukhari and Muslim relate that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Whomever is not merciful to people, Allah will show no mercy" (Sahih Muslim, 4.1809: hadith 2319), and Tirmidhi relates the well authenticated (hasan) hadith "Mercy is not taken out of anyone except the damned" (al-Jami‘ al-sahih, 4.323: hadith 1923).

(3) Love of each other. Muslim relates in his Sahih that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "By Him in whose hand is my soul, none of you shall enter paradise until you believe, and none of you shall believe until you love one another . . . ." (Sahih Muslim, 1.74: hadith 54).

(4) Presence of mind in the prayer (salat). Abu Dawud relates in his Sunan that ‘Ammar ibn Yasir heard the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) say, "Truly, a man leaves, and none of his prayer has been recorded for him except a tenth of it, a ninth of it, eighth of it, seventh of it, sixth of it, fifth of it, fourth of it, third of it, a half of it" (Sunan Abi Dawud, 1.211: hadith 796)—meaning that none of a person’s prayer counts for him except that in which he is present in his heart with Allah.

(5) Love of the Prophet. Bukhari relates in his Sahih that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "None of you believes until I am more beloved to him than his father, his son, and all people" (Fath al-Bari, 1.58, hadith 15).

It is plain from these texts that none of the states mentioned—whether mercy, love, or presence of heart—are quantifiable, for the Shari‘a cannot specify that one must "do two units of mercy" or "have three units of presence of mind" in the way that the number of rak‘as of prayer can be specified, yet each of them is personally obligatory for the Muslim. Let us complete the picture by looking at a few examples of states that are haram or ‘strictly unlawful’:

(1) Fear of anyone besides Allah. Allah Most High says in Surat al-Baqara of the Qur'an,

"And fulfill My covenant: I will fulfill your covenant—And fear Me alone" (Qur'an 2:40), the last phrase of which, according to Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, "establishes that a human being is obliged to fear no one besides Allah Most High" (Tafsir al-Fakhr al-Razi, 3.42).

(2) Despair. Allah Most High says,

"None despairs of Allah’s mercy except the people who disbelieve" (Qur'an 12:87), indicating the unlawfulness of this inward state by coupling it with the worst human condition possible, that of unbelief.

(3) Arrogance. Muslim relates in his Sahih that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "No one shall enter paradise who has a particle of arrogance in his heart" (Sahih Muslim, 1.93: hadith 91).

(4) Envy,meaning to wish for another to lose the blessings he enjoys. Abu Dawud relates that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "Beware of envy, for envy consumes good works as flames consume firewood" (Sunan Abi Dawud, 4.276: hadith 4903).

(5) Showing off in acts of worship. Al-Hakim relates with a sahih chain of transmission that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "The slightest bit of showing off in good works is as if worshipping others with Allah . . . ." (al-Mustadrak ‘ala al-Sahihayn, 1.4).

Just ask if you want to learn more. I don't think you know much about the spiritual aspects of belief in Islam, only the legalisms.

Peace

[Bushmaster]

Let's save the hot air, what is exactly conjecture about what Christians learn about God from the Bible?

[humble_guest]

Let's save the hot air, what is exactly conjecture about what Christians learn about God from the Bible?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLAM/nuh/littlk.htm

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLA ... thesky.htm

Peace