A 'saint' of last resort

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Aineo
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A 'saint' of last resort

Postby Aineo » Wed Mar 24, 2004 05:56 pm

The RCC has done such a poor job discipling their members that this is the end result of images and appealing to physically dead saints:
A 'saint' of last resort

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Copyright 2004 Los Angeles Times

A 'saint' of last resort
In Mexico, growing numbers of the poor and desperate--even the criminal--seek La Santa Muerte's help.


To Roman Catholic Church officials, the skeletal woman in the long, flowing robes is an evil figure, a grisly embodiment of satanic purposes. But to the desperately poor and overlooked residents of Tepito she is a pop-folk idol and often a last, best hope for answering unanswered prayers.

She is La Santa Muerte, "Saint Death," or as others call her, "La Santísima Muerte," "Sacred Death." Her petitioners are prostitutes, drug dealers and murderers, as well as multitudes of ordinary housewives, taxi drivers and street vendors hoping to cure a sick child or pay the rent or simply make it through another day without getting robbed or kidnapped or shot. Over the past 20 years, her following has grown so large and so rapidly that in some parts of Mexico she is becoming a rival in popular affection to the Virgen de Guadalupe, the manifestation of the Virgin Mary that for nearly half a millennium has been the reigning symbol of Mexican national identity. La Santa Muerte, the queen of secret desires and furtive causes, is the Virgin's grinning, post-NAFTA counterpart.

"She is a Virgen de Guadalupe in negative: That which one can't ask of the Virgen, one can ask of her," says Homero Aridjis, a poet, novelist and former Mexican diplomat who recently published a short story collection about La Santa Muerte's mysterious and increasingly firm grip on the Mexican soul.

On a recent morning, as this seething capital subsided from rush-hour insanity into mere pandemonium, the scene was lively at No. 12 Alfareros St. in the heart of Tepito. While La Santa Muerte now commands a national following, and images of her can be found throughout Mexico and other parts of Latin America, the Tepito shrine has drawn particular attention as the Mexican mass media have caught on to the growing phenomenon. Outside the tent-like structure surrounding the life-size statue of the saint, a morning chill still hung in the air. But inside, scores of votive candles gave off an eerie warmth, while orchids, roses and other flowers exuded a sickly-sweet perfume.

One by one, the faithful came trickling in to pay tribute to La Santa Muerte, as they do at practically every hour of the day and night in Tepito. Cars pulled up and men hopped out bearing candles, cash, chocolates, apples, bottles of liquor and armloads of fresh-cut flowers. Mothers held their infant daughters up to La Santa Muerte's hollow gaze and begged for her blessing. Wrinkled old women and macho young men in spiky hair took turns kneeling on a small wooden prayer chair, murmuring fervent requests. Occasionally one of them would take a puff on a cigarette or cigar and blow smoke at the saint's face in a ceremonial act of purification.

Though La Santa Muerte is disdained and barely recognized by the Catholic Church, she's one of a number of unofficial folk "saints" who've been taken to heart by the Mexican people in the centuries since the Spanish conquest. Death cults and death worship have deep roots in Mexico's pre-Columbian past, and in Mexican culture death doesn't carry the morbid taint that it does in other societies. And while La Santa Muerte embodies a certain fatalism about life's inevitable end, her all-too-human form makes ordinary Mexicans feel that, in some mysterious way, she is like one of them, that she feels their sufferings right down to her bones.

"I worship her a lot. I love her a lot," said José Luis, a regular supplicant at the saint's shrine who lifted his shirt and showed off a Santa Muerte tattoo, which he had engraved on his back eight years ago as thanks for favors received. "In my poor house, I have an altar to her," he continued. "More than anything she has given me tranquillity, health. She's muy milagrosa" — very miraculous. Inside a small storefront to the rear of the altar, Enriqueta Romero, 58, who built the shrine about three years ago and now acts as its principal caretaker, tried to explain the source of La Santa Muerte's soaring popularity. Doña Queta, as she is known, said that her aunt had taught her to admire and worship the folk saint. Today she sells a variety of Santa Muerte-related products, including incense, candles and statues, along with hamburgers and other snacks, and regales visitors with endless anecdotes of the saint's preternatural powers.

"The only thing that matters is the faith," Doña Queta insisted, dismissing a reporter's suggestion that the saint is particularly revered by people living on the wrong side of the law. "It doesn't matter if they [worshipers] are good or bad, or where they live."

It is certainly true that La Santa Muerte is a kind of equal-opportunity icon. It is said that she makes no distinction between the rich and the poor, the powerful and the powerless. Whatever your wish or grievance, you need only say a prayer or purchase the appropriate color-coded candle and offer it to La Santa Muerte.

An orange candle is for all-around good luck. Blue is for help with work-related matters. White signifies thanks for a favor granted. Green is for protection against legal authorities. Red is for passion — to make someone fall in love with you, perhaps, or when you need courage to settle a score. And black is to neutralize "malas vibres," bad vibes, and to make undesirable persons simply "disappear" — no questions asked.

"If … today you are going to sell drugs or you are going to kidnap somebody, you ask her [La Santa Muerte] for help so you can commit crimes safely," author Aridjis says with a rueful laugh. "You see some very innocent people praying and making offerings, and some very tough people as well."

Children ask La Santa Muerte for help with their schoolwork. Some mothers pray to the saint to protect their kids from crime, or from the predations of Mexico's notoriously corrupt police. Other parents plead with the saint to keep their children from joining street gangs.

One devotee visiting the shrine recently said he had asked the saint to save his cancer-stricken mother. A policeman who declined to give his name said he comes to the altar every two weeks to light a black candle to protect him against assaults in the city's Colonia Roma district, where he works. He wears two Santa Muerte medals. "She is like God, more or less," he said.

Narcotraficantes, Mexico's powerful drug lords, may ask La Santa Muerte for aid in destroying their rivals. Aridjis says the cult is particularly extensive among Mexican prison inmates.

Traditionally, the heaviest visitor turnout in Tepito falls on the first day of each month, when the street around the shrine is closed to traffic and hundreds if not thousands of the faithful bring images, religious medallions and other objects for the saint to bless, while services are performed in front of the altar.

But even on an ordinary weekday the visitor flow is virtually nonstop. Alejandra Cordero Méndez, 25, came to the shrine a few days ago with her two infant daughters, Carla and Irbe. Méndez said she has turned to La Santa Muerte "for many things," including help during a difficult childbirth. She had vowed to return to the altar if the saint helped her give birth, and was doing so that day, lighting a white candle.

The Tepito neighborhood is a logical place to encounter La Santa Muerte. Bordered by sprawling market stalls where you can buy anything from guns and pirated This thread will be deleted. to illegal exotic animals and bootleg DVDs of "The Passion of the Christ," the barrio has a long history of deprivation and neglect. American writer Oscar Lewis based his classic study of Mexican poverty and social pathology, "Los Hijos de Sánchez" (The Children of Sanchez), on a Tepito family who lived less than a block from where the Santa Muerte altar now stands.

Several of the surrounding market stalls and botánicas sell books on the occult and on New Age religions, along with love potions, Tarot cards, little metal figurines to wear on necklaces and larger statues of the Buddha, Jesus, the Virgen de Guadalupe and La Santa Muerte displayed side by side. A 4 1/2-foot-high statue of La Santa Muerte made of alabaster goes for about $100. There's even a Santa Muerte aerosol spray.

In the new global marketplace of spirituality, some Mexicans mix and match beliefs, customizing their personal faiths. Aridjis says that when he first came to the vast Sonora market five years ago, only two stalls there sold Santa Muerte items. Now one entire corridor is filled with them.

But be careful what offering you make to La Santa Muerte, says one female market vendor. "You don't want to offer the saint something she doesn't want, because she's very jealous."

The saint has many aliases: La Niña Blanca, Negrita, Santa Marta, Martita ("Little Martha"), La Flaca ("The Skinny One") and, among prison inmates, La Madrina ("The Godmother"). She also has many incarnations. In some images she is transformed into an aggressively cartoonish character, a scythe-wielding Goth-rock princess. In others she appears more reserved, dignified, even genteel.

It wasn't until the mid-1960s, Aridjis says, that La Santa Muerte began emerging with a vengeance in Mexican society, first in the provinces and later in major urban centers. As Mexico City grew into a monster metropolis, crime surged and a hemispheric drug trade flourished, La Santa Muerte's stock rose swiftly. Aridjis says he first encountered her 10 years ago while attending an all-night party thrown by a highly prominent Mexican businessman, who kept an image of the saint in a chapel in his home. "I began to learn more and more and more," he says. "It was like an invisible presence in our society."

And perhaps not just Mexican society anymore. Doña Queta says friends in Tijuana tell her they've seen images of La Santa Muerte along the frontera. Some believe that the skeleton queen will soon be en route to Texas, Chicago, Los Angeles — if she's not already there. Says Aridjis: "I think this image is going to cross the border very soon."
What is wrong with images of Mary holding a baby?
ז לֹא-תַעֲשֶׂה לְךָ פֶסֶל, כָּל-תְּמוּנָה, אֲשֶׁר בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל, וַאֲשֶׁר בָּאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת--וַאֲשֶׁר בַּמַּיִם, מִתַּחַת לָאָרֶץ. 7 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, even any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
ח לֹא-תִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה לָהֶם, וְלֹא תָעָבְדֵם: כִּי אָנֹכִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֵל קַנָּא--פֹּקֵד עֲו‍ֹן אָבוֹת עַל-בָּנִים וְעַל-שִׁלֵּשִׁים וְעַל-רִבֵּעִים, לְשֹׂנְאָי. 8 Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate Me,
ט וְעֹשֶׂה חֶסֶד, לַאֲלָפִים--לְאֹהֲבַי, וּלְשֹׁמְרֵי מצותו (מִצְו‍ֹתָי). {ס} 9 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments. {S}

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0505.htm
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RomeSweetHome

Postby RomeSweetHome » Wed Apr 07, 2004 08:16 pm

lol Aineo You never stop trying to bash the Roman Catholic Church.

Why dont you put the positive things the Saints are said to have done with the power that the Holy Spirit has given them?

Miricles and healings and apparations. We dont worship Saints or expect them to be gods or goddesses, we only want their intercesstion, Full stop and what comes from there depending on how it is we clarify if its evil or from the Lord, full stop.

I can say so much more, but is there a actual point? I mean I already been threw this.

by the way Some sites Create and play around with images ie putting skull faces on statues etc I have seen many, very disrespectful, oh well.

Peace

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Postby Aineo » Wed Apr 07, 2004 09:52 pm

Laugh all you want, the damage done to the those who actually believe in this mumbo jumbo is a direct result of what the RCC teaches.
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RomeSweetHome

Postby RomeSweetHome » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:59 pm

Well it is sad because that is not a Saint infact as you know the church condems this image as evil.

To Roman Catholic Church officials, the skeletal woman in the long, flowing robes is an evil figure, a grisly embodiment of satanic purposes. But to the desperately poor and overlooked residents of Tepito she is a pop-folk idol and often a last, best hope for answering unanswered prayers.


I do think the Church should do more in Mexico because they still do have very Pagan ways for exampl, the day of the dead etc... things like that where they do pagan rituals. We are not talking about all of the Mexicans some are good Catholics.

Peace

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Postby Aineo » Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:35 am

At that RomeSweetHome is my single largest issue with the RCC. You promote "traditions" like images, the Marian doctrine, and etc. and fail miserably to disciple the members of your own church. Latin masses, pagan rituals and an emphasise on praying to physically dead people is what leads to heresy. You can appeal to Spanish being a derivative of Latin, however, for most native people groups in Latin and South America Spanish is not their native language.

What is the net worth of the Vatican? How much money does the Vatican have invested in the economies of European countries? How much money does the RCC spend on helping the poor and needy in the poorer countries where Roman Catholicism is the major religion? One question I think you and other Catholics need to address is if the RCC is a modern Sodom.
Ezek 16:49-50
49 "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: [b]she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. 50 "Thus they were haughty
and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. NAS[/quote]Arrogance and haughtiness are synonymous with many Roman Catholics who hold your revisionist history as the only true history of Christianity and your traditions as more important and authoritative than God’s word.
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RomeSweetHome

Postby RomeSweetHome » Thu Apr 08, 2004 01:52 am

Well....

We dont pray to the dead, first of all.

I have already discussed this with you.

Images are permissible unless they are being worshipped. You better not have any images of your lover or Mother, thats idolaty. Nah common if you worship it yes but if you honor the picture no harm has been commited.


Aineo wrote:
What is the net worth of the Vatican? How much money does the Vatican have invested in the economies of European countries? How much money does the RCC spend on helping the poor and needy in the poorer countries where Roman Catholicism is the major religion?


How rich is the Catholic Church? I answer by citing facts that are on the public record. In 1978, the year of the three popes, the Vatican had to go into debt to Italian bankers to pay for the second papal funeral and the second conclave. Not a very impressive performance for an institution which, according to hoary anti-Catholic bigotry, possesses fabulous wealth. There was perhaps a time when the church was truly rich, but the Reformation and the French Revolution ended that.

Catholicism is property poor. What, for example, is the replacement value of St. Peter's in the Vatican? Who would buy it? How much income does it produce a year? In fact, the votive candle offerings--its only source of income--barely pay for maintenance. And what would someone do with it if they purchased it, especially once they discovered it was a loss leader? Build condos over it?

The Vatican's endowment is less than that of a mid-level American Catholic university. It necessarily lives a hand-to-mouth financial existence. It puts on a great show with its splendors and its ceremonies, but the wealth that paid for its splendors vanished long ago, and it can barely pay for the ceremonies.

Many authors have received fat book contracts to expose Vatican wealth and produced books that admitted there was little if anything to expose.

The financial structure of the Catholic Church is decentralized. Each of the 194 dioceses in America
is autonomous. The roughly 20,000 churches within those dioceses raise an estimated $7.5 billion
annually, which the dioceses use individually to pay salaries, run schools, and fund charitable
institutions.

Once a year a collection known as ''Peter's Pence'' is taken up in each of those churches which is
forwarded to the Vatican, and there are other small streams of money that run to the Holy See.

But of the Vatican's roughly $200 million annual budget, the American church contributes only about
5 percent, according to John Allen, who covers the Vatican for National Catholic Reporter.

There is some evidence that the vast array of social services that the Boston agency of Catholic
Charities provides is already being hurt by the scandal. The institution, which serves 170,000 needy
people, announced layoffs of about 10 percent of its staff of 1,400 and a planned 15 percent cut in
its $40 million annual budget, according to Catholic Charities president Dr. Joseph Doolin.

Enough? what about your church?

Peace

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Postby Aineo » Thu Apr 08, 2004 02:11 am

RomeSweetHome wrote:Well....

We dont pray to the dead, first of all.

I have already discussed this with you.
You lectured me, and I reject you esoteric explanation.
Images are permissible unless they are being worshipped. You better not have any images of your lover or Mother, thats idolaty. Nah common if you worship it yes but if you honor the picture no harm has been commited.
:D the usual apologetic. If I have a picture of my family I am as guilty as you are of having images in a place of worship. That is ludicrous.

Aineo wrote:
What is the net worth of the Vatican? How much money does the Vatican have invested in the economies of European countries? How much money does the RCC spend on helping the poor and needy in the poorer countries where Roman Catholicism is the major religion?


How rich is the Catholic Church? I answer by citing facts that are on the public record. In 1978, the year of the three popes, the Vatican had to go into debt to Italian bankers to pay for the second papal funeral and the second conclave. Not a very impressive performance for an institution which, according to hoary anti-Catholic bigotry, possesses fabulous wealth. There was perhaps a time when the church was truly rich, but the Reformation and the French Revolution ended that.
Borrowing money instead of liquidating assets is just good business. You side stepped my quesiton; "What is the net worth of the Vatican".
Catholicism is property poor. What, for example, is the replacement value of St. Peter's in the Vatican? Who would buy it? How much income does it produce a year? In fact, the votive candle offerings--its only source of income--barely pay for maintenance. And what would someone do with it if they purchased it, especially once they discovered it was a loss leader? Build condos over it?
:D If you believe this you are living in la la land.
The Vatican's endowment is less than that of a mid-level American Catholic university. It necessarily lives a hand-to-mouth financial existence. It puts on a great show with its splendors and its ceremonies, but the wealth that paid for its splendors vanished long ago, and it can barely pay for the ceremonies.

Many authors have received fat book contracts to expose Vatican wealth and produced books that admitted there was little if anything to expose.

The financial structure of the Catholic Church is decentralized. Each of the 194 dioceses in America
is autonomous. The roughly 20,000 churches within those dioceses raise an estimated $7.5 billion
annually, which the dioceses use individually to pay salaries, run schools, and fund charitable
institutions.

Once a year a collection known as ''Peter's Pence'' is taken up in each of those churches which is
forwarded to the Vatican, and there are other small streams of money that run to the Holy See.

But of the Vatican's roughly $200 million annual budget, the American church contributes only about
5 percent, according to John Allen, who covers the Vatican for National Catholic Reporter.

There is some evidence that the vast array of social services that the Boston agency of Catholic
Charities provides is already being hurt by the scandal. The institution, which serves 170,000 needy
people, announced layoffs of about 10 percent of its staff of 1,400 and a planned 15 percent cut in
its $40 million annual budget, according to Catholic Charities president Dr. Joseph Doolin.

Enough? what about your church?

Peace
My church meets in rented quarters, does not spend money on buildings, or fancy cars, crowns, robes, statues, etc. and supports missionaries and etc. We see the use of fancy buildings as arrogant pride. We spend our dollars on feeding the poor, housing the homeless and sending medical supplies to poor regions.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Thu Apr 08, 2004 02:18 am

really what is your church called?

And Dont forget the Vatican has its own city to run. It send missionaries all over the world. We have beautiful churches etc because the vatican is the one that supports every catholic every where.

I do not know the net income, I will look it up though.

And Having pictures in a place of worship dont mean you worship the picture why did God himself command the making of angel statues in the temple? wasnt that a place of worship?

Peace

RomeSweetHome

Postby RomeSweetHome » Thu Apr 08, 2004 02:22 am

I am not saying the church is bankrupt, I am saying it has gone threw difficult times.

HOLY SEE NO LONGER IN THE RED

President of the Vatican Prefecture for Economic Affairs, Archbishop Sergio Sebastiani, announced on Friday that the Vatican has a budget surplus.
He said Consolidated Revenues and Expenses for the fiscal year 1999 registered a net gain of $A8.41 million, $A5.88 million more than in 1998.
"I am very happy to report that in 1999, for the seventh consecutive time, the Vatican's Net Consolidated Revenues and Expenses has shown a net gain," the Archbishop said.
In the years following Vatican II, the renewal, extension, and internationalisation of the Roman Curia caused expenses that the Vatican could not meet with its limited direct income, and consequently the financial balance was in the red for many years.
In 1991, Pope John Paul II told presidents of the world's the Episcopal Conferences that canon 1271 of the Code of Canon Law requires their dioceses to contribute to the maintenance of the Apostolic See. The income derived from this disposition went from a few million dollars in 1992 to more than $A33.64 million in 1999.
He said that the Jubilee Year had caused expenses to increase by 3.7%, but also boosted revenues by 5.8%.

Thats all I know

Peace

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Postby Aineo » Thu Apr 08, 2004 02:30 am

RomeSweetHome wrote:I am not saying the church is bankrupt, I am saying it has gone threw difficult times.

HOLY SEE NO LONGER IN THE RED

President of the Vatican Prefecture for Economic Affairs, Archbishop Sergio Sebastiani, announced on Friday that the Vatican has a budget surplus.
He said Consolidated Revenues and Expenses for the fiscal year 1999 registered a net gain of $A8.41 million, $A5.88 million more than in 1998.
"I am very happy to report that in 1999, for the seventh consecutive time, the Vatican's Net Consolidated Revenues and Expenses has shown a net gain," the Archbishop said.
In the years following Vatican II, the renewal, extension, and internationalisation of the Roman Curia caused expenses that the Vatican could not meet with its limited direct income, and consequently the financial balance was in the red for many years.
In 1991, Pope John Paul II told presidents of the world's the Episcopal Conferences that canon 1271 of the Code of Canon Law requires their dioceses to contribute to the maintenance of the Apostolic See. The income derived from this disposition went from a few million dollars in 1992 to more than $A33.64 million in 1999.
He said that the Jubilee Year had caused expenses to increase by 3.7%, but also boosted revenues by 5.8%.

Thats all I know

Peace
:D You are dealing with an accountant. I did not ask for a cash flow analysis I asked for a net worth. Donald Trump had cash flow problems a couple years back but his net worth was in the billions.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Thu Apr 08, 2004 07:20 pm

I told you I do not know the net income, read the post.

I dont work in or for the Vatican.

Peace

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Postby Aineo » Fri Apr 09, 2004 03:13 pm

RomeSweetHome wrote:I told you I do not know the net income, read the post.

I dont work in or for the Vatican.

Peace
Net Worth is not net income. Lets use Microsoft as an example. There net worth as of 12/31/03 was about $57.5 billion with a net income for 2003 of $4.16 billion. A portion of the $57.5 billion is made up of short term investments of $42.6 billion.

If the Vatican could borrow millions of dollars no bank is dumb enough to lend the money without some collateral. Even an Italian bank is going to use common sense in lending money. So what you are telling me is the Vatican does not publish a balance sheet and only reports cash flow.

It would be interesting to see a balance sheet, which is where net worth is found. What you shared is the result of a "profit and loss" statement or in the case of a non-profit an income and expense report.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Fri Apr 09, 2004 06:55 pm

Well I still dont know the Net Worth either :D

Whats the point of all this Vatican Net stuff anyway?

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Postby Aineo » Fri Apr 09, 2004 07:21 pm

RomeSweetHome wrote:Well I still dont know the Net Worth either :D

Whats the point of all this Vatican Net stuff anyway?
If the Vatican can afford to spend millions on funerals, road trips, etc. Why not use this money to help the poor and educate your members. What is important about the "net worth" of any non-profit organization is how they use the money donated by people who intend there donations to be used for spreading the gospel, feeding the poor, housing the homeless, and etc.

The American Catholic Church has spent hundreds of millions in an attempt to cover up the priest child abuse scandal it raises questions about a lot of other issues. One being why the Vatican spends millions on a funeral for a dead man while millions of Catholic poor live in squalor.

The Pope gave Mother Teresa a Mercedes. This seems a bit odd when you consider the numbers of people who could get medical treatment for the cost of one car, especially in India. It the RCC can afford to buy Mercedes' they should be able to feed the poor and house the homeless.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Sat Apr 10, 2004 12:18 am

The pope makes trips around the World to give spiritual encouragement to the faithful Catholics around the world.

The Church paid the child abuse cases and apologized to the victims.

The Church has its own City to run.

We are the most succesful Church because of our organization skills and
religious unity around the world.

There are a number of charities funded by the Church;

The Catholic Campaign for Human Development (CCHD), "self-help"

"It's the old adage -- teaching someone to fish versus handing them a fish. Only, we want them to get salmon and red snapper and everything else.

It is better to teach someone how to fish rather than give them fish, because then they'll be self-sufficient and feed themselves whenever they feel hungry, etc...

According the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, CCHD is the largest private grantor to projects developed with the express purpose of lifting up the poor. Grants are given to organizations working to break the downward spiral of poverty by fostering economic growth and political awareness among the poor.

In the Diocese, such groups have campaigned for affordable housing, cultivated job opportunities and advancement, developed programs for inner-city children, and fought against the influence of gangs in city neighborhoods.

And there are many more things that the church does to help the world.

All Churches including Protestant Churches make a great net income not only the Catholic Church.

For example the Mormon Church has assets of $8 "billion", making it the wealthiest Protestant Church in America... all this fortune comes from the "deceived members", they end up giving to the Church their money, time, and life.

So why dont they do anything? whatever denomination they may be the Catholic Church isn't the only "Rich Church".Then again you might say its the richist I say its the biggest therefore logic steps in,you do the calculations.

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Postby Aineo » Sat Apr 10, 2004 12:44 am

RomeSweetHome wrote:The pope makes trips around the World to give spiritual encouragement to the faithful Catholics around the world.

The Church paid the child abuse cases and apologized to the victims.

The Church has its own City to run.

We are the most succesful Church because of our organization skills and
religious unity around the world.
The church hid the child abuse cases for 50 years. Not all diocese are cooperting with the commitee investigating the abuse cases, so this is yet to be resolved. Since you live in England you probably don't get all the information available to us.

As to the RCC being the best organized that is a matter of opinion. No church that is efficiently organized is going to go into debt because it can't manage its own affairs properly.
There are a number of charities funded by the Church;

The Catholic Campaign for Human Development (CCHD), "self-help"

"It's the old adage -- teaching someone to fish versus handing them a fish. Only, we want them to get salmon and red snapper and everything else.

It is better to teach someone how to fish rather than give them fish, because then they'll be self-sufficient and feed themselves whenever they feel hungry, etc...

According the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, CCHD is the largest private grantor to projects developed with the express purpose of lifting up the poor. Grants are given to organizations working to break the downward spiral of poverty by fostering economic growth and political awareness among the poor.
According to the USCCB the child abuse scandal is handled and that is simply not true. Can you cite an independant organization?
In the Diocese, such groups have campaigned for affordable housing, cultivated job opportunities and advancement, developed programs for inner-city children, and fought against the influence of gangs in city neighborhoods.

And there are many more things that the church does to help the world.

All Churches including Protestant Churches make a great net income not only the Catholic Church.

For example the Mormon Church has assets of $8 "billion", making it the wealthiest Protestant Church in America... all this fortune comes from the "deceived members", they end up giving to the Church their money, time, and life.

So why dont they do anything? whatever denomination they may be the Catholic Church isn't the only "Rich Church".Then again you might say its the richist I say its the biggest therefore logic steps in,you do the calculations.

Peace
You are totally missing my point. The city I live in has a very active Catholic Charities that is funded not only by Catholics but the general public and with some aid from Protestants. The Salvation Army is probably as active in helping the poor and needy as Catholic Charities.

However, on a national or international level I know for a fact that some Protestant denominations have billions invested in stock and bonds. These funds are for retirement programs, building programs, on-going funding of missionaries, etc. And I don't agree with them hording money either. The Presbyterian Church owned the Empire State Building at one time but sold it when they came under criticism for being a tax exempt organization running a for profit business.

You live in England I lived in Texas where I could see the result of the RCC's lack of help in Catholic dominated countries. I have seen Latino Catholics worship images, I have heard Latino Catholics defend their worship of Mary. What the catechism teaches and how Catholicism is practiced in 3rd world countries is not the same. The reality is the RCC has bred a mass of idol worshippers who use Catholicism to mask their pagan practices.

When the Pope travels the cities he visits pick up the tab, not the Vatican.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Sat Apr 10, 2004 01:42 pm

Aieno Wrote
If the Vatican can afford to spend millions on funerals, road trips, etc. Why not use this money to help the poor and educate your members. What is important about the "net worth" of any non-profit organization is how they use the money donated by people who intend there donations to be used for spreading the gospel, feeding the poor, housing the homeless, and etc.


That is why I was explaining how the Church uses its Money.

Aieno Wrote
The church hid the child abuse cases for 50 years. Not all diocese are cooperting with the commitee investigating the abuse cases, so this is yet to be resolved. Since you live in England you probably don't get all the information available to us.


Perhaps not, but; tthe Catholic church is compelled to speak even knowing that the Church carries a heavy burden of responsibility in the area of sexual abuse. Some ordained ministers and religious brothers and sisters, as well as lay employees and volunteers, have sexually abused children and adolescents. We are acutely aware of the havoc and suffering caused by this abuse and we are committed to dealing with these situations responsibly and in all humility.

The National Conference of Catholic Bishops has established an ad hoc committee on sexual abuse by clergy to help church leaders take appropriate action. Each diocese has developed comprehensive policies concerning sexual abuse, which often apply to employees and volunteers, as well as to clergy and religious. We are fully committed to preventing child sexual abuse and to restoring victims to health.

We join the United Nations, the International Catholic Child Bureau, and other groups in drawing attention to the vulnerability of girls throughout the world, including the United States of America.

Peace

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Postby Aineo » Sat Apr 10, 2004 01:58 pm

RomeSweetHome wrote:Aieno Wrote
If the Vatican can afford to spend millions on funerals, road trips, etc. Why not use this money to help the poor and educate your members. What is important about the "net worth" of any non-profit organization is how they use the money donated by people who intend there donations to be used for spreading the gospel, feeding the poor, housing the homeless, and etc.


That is why I was explaining how the Church uses its Money.

Aieno Wrote
The church hid the child abuse cases for 50 years. Not all diocese are cooperting with the commitee investigating the abuse cases, so this is yet to be resolved. Since you live in England you probably don't get all the information available to us.


Perhaps not, but; tthe Catholic church is compelled to speak even knowing that the Church carries a heavy burden of responsibility in the area of sexual abuse. Some ordained ministers and religious brothers and sisters, as well as lay employees and volunteers, have sexually abused children and adolescents. We are acutely aware of the havoc and suffering caused by this abuse and we are committed to dealing with these situations responsibly and in all humility.

The National Conference of Catholic Bishops has established an ad hoc committee on sexual abuse by clergy to help church leaders take appropriate action. Each diocese has developed comprehensive policies concerning sexual abuse, which often apply to employees and volunteers, as well as to clergy and religious. We are fully committed to preventing child sexual abuse and to restoring victims to health.

We join the United Nations, the International Catholic Child Bureau, and other groups in drawing attention to the vulnerability of girls throughout the world, including the United States of America.

Peace
This is closing the barn door after the horse got out. As to the Bishops "cooperating" that is not universally true. Some Bishops have refused to release all available information concerning abusive priests. When you have Bishops and Cardinals covering up the scandals to protect "mother church" at the expense of the victims you do not have the victims welfare in mind. Money will not "cure" the trauma and lose of trust in God, let alone the RCC as a result of 50 years of cover-ups. The RCC in America in now in the position of not being able to obtain liability insurance covering abuse cases; the next case will cost the RCC the millions not an insurance company.
"to the vulnerability of girls"
But not boys? The scandal in America concentrated on sexual abuse of boys, not girls. Are you aware of the fact that the Philippines, a Catholic dominated country; is a magnet for man/boy pedophiles?
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Sat Apr 10, 2004 07:40 pm

Indeed every country contains some sort of evil,or every sort should I say.

Peace

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Postby Aineo » Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:27 pm

RomeSweetHome wrote:Indeed every country contains some sort of evil,or every sort should I say.

Peace
And when the evil has roots in any theology the theology is to blame! If the RCC spent as much effort promoting the gospel of Jesus Christ as you do promoting the Marian doctrines and images just maybe "Saints of Last Resort" would not exist!
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Sun Apr 11, 2004 02:19 am

Aieno Wrote
And when the evil has roots in any theology the theology is to blame! If the RCC spent as much effort promoting the gospel of Jesus Christ as you do promoting the Marian doctrines and images just maybe "Saints of Last Resort" would not exist


Dont always throw the blame at people or institutions.

Look at the west, America and England mainly,both more prodominantly Protestant countrys, Yet some states in America (California) permit Gay marriages. In England they are also about to Change the law so that Gay people have the right of marrige and other rights that go with that.

They also permit large Casinos, strip clubs, sex stores etc.... All evil arent they?

Sometimes Aieno I think its best to say the Devil is at work, instead of blaming any Faith.

People will always be in fault some way or another, if it wasnt for the Roman Catholic Church the mexicans would have still been worshipping wood. But instead the Church took the Bible there and preached it.

Peace

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Postby Aineo » Sun Apr 11, 2004 03:39 am

RomeSweetHome wrote:Aieno Wrote
And when the evil has roots in any theology the theology is to blame! If the RCC spent as much effort promoting the gospel of Jesus Christ as you do promoting the Marian doctrines and images just maybe "Saints of Last Resort" would not exist


Dont always throw the blame at people or institutions.

Look at the west, America and England mainly,both more prodominantly Protestant countrys, Yet some states in America (California) permit Gay marriages. In England they are also about to Change the law so that Gay people have the right of marrige and other rights that go with that.

They also permit large Casinos, strip clubs, sex stores etc.... All evil arent they?

Sometimes Aieno I think its best to say the Devil is at work, instead of blaming any Faith.
The state of Vermont has legalized gay unions, but the state of Vermont is not a religious institution that teaches practices that lead to idol worship. The State of California does not allow gay unions. The Mayor of San Francisco took the law into his own hands in violation of California Law. The Massachusetts Supreme Court has mandated gay marriages to be allowed no later than the middle of May and the Legislature in Mass. has passed a Constitutional Amendment to prohibit gay marriage. You are comparing a secular society with a religion. Our Constitution prohibits establishing a state religion.

Do an Internet search on gambling and/or adult entertainment plus a country name and you will find casinos, strip clubs, and sex stores in Italy, Mexico, and other Catholic dominated countries. Do a search in history of Middle Ages Popes and see just how moral and filled with integrity some of your Popes were; and then there is the sex scandals that have rocked the American Catholic Church. Catholic Bishops and Cardinals transferred known pedophiles from one diocese to another to protect “mother church”.

I have every right to point fingers and lay blame at the door of the RCC when the RCC does not educate its own members in basic Christian doctrine. My authority for pointing fingers is:
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters; for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves. NAS
People will always be in fault some way or another, if it wasnt for the Roman Catholic Church the mexicans would have still been worshipping wood. But instead the Church took the Bible there and preached it.
The RCC took traditions to Mexico and preached the Marian doctrines, images, and other traditions that have taught the Mexican’s to worship wood in the image of Mary and the saints. And they did it with swords, forced conversion, and intimidation and at the same time attempted to destroy all vestiges of ancient cultures in the process. The main reason for conquering the New World was the acquisition of gold, silver, and wealth. To deny this is to deny history. If it was not for the gold in “them thar hills” the gospel would not have spread across the oceans. Catholics enslaved the native populations in many countries.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Sun Apr 11, 2004 04:11 am

Isnt your nation "under God" as it claims?

Every single country has evil as Satan is everywhere. And he is the prime cause of it not the church!

Not all the Popes were perfect, I agree totally.

Like I said if it wasnt for the Churchs missionary work the Mexicons and most of the world for that matter would be worshippin the sun or wood etc...

Peace

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Postby Aineo » Sun Apr 11, 2004 04:46 am

RomeSweetHome wrote:Isnt your nation "under God" as it claims?

Every single country has evil as Satan is everywhere. And he is the prime cause of it not the church!

Not all the Popes were perfect, I agree totally.

Like I said if it wasnt for the Churchs missionary work the Mexicons and most of the world for that matter would be worshippin the sun or wood etc...

Peace
We are a nation of many faiths. "Under God" can be seen by a Muslim as "Allah", as "Jehovah" by Christians and Jews, and any of the pantheon of gods in Eastern faiths.

The United States of America is a Constitutional Democracy not a theocracy.
Rom 13:1-7
13:1 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. NAS

1 Tim 2:1-7
2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. NAS

1 Peter 2:13-17

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17 Honor all men; love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. NAS
As I stated before the United States is not a religious organization that is commanded by God to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ; the Roman Catholic Church is supposed to be making disciples who know and practice the truth.
Last edited by Aineo on Sun Apr 11, 2004 02:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Sun Apr 11, 2004 02:04 pm

I know that America is not and never will be a religious theocracy.

Well like I said I wont sit here and deny the truth that the Church has not been perfect threwout History.

As none is perfect but the Lord.

We are Just trying my friend thats all :)

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Postby Aineo » Sun Apr 11, 2004 02:17 pm

Back to the saint of last resort. What is the RCC doing to correct this situation? If anything.
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Postby RomeSweetHome » Sun Apr 11, 2004 04:38 pm

At the moment how should I know? I do not work for the Church.

All I know is the Church states that Statue is of evil purposses.

I will look into this more though.


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