Deut. 18:18 is a prophecy for Muhammed

[Katatonic Bliss]

Deut. 18:18 states: I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers: I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

Muslims claim that this is a prophecy for Muhammad, yet Christians claim this is a prophecy for Jesus.

Lets look at the verse:
I will raise up for them a prophet.
Christians believe that Jesus was God, this only strengthens the Muslim position of Jesus as no more than a prophet, although a GREAT prophet.

Like you
So the prophet will be like Moses. Muhammad and Moses had so much in common that it is ovious the prophecy refers to Muhammad. Lets look at the similarities:
Both were born of man and woman
Both lived normal lives before being called to prophethood
Both brought down scripture [Torah, Qur'an]
Both were married.
Both performed miracles
Both left sucessors.

I think thats enough for now.

From among their brothers
Who were the brothers of the Israelites? the Ishmaelites. Muhammad was an Ishmaelite.

I will put my words in his mouth
Muhammad never took credit for his preachings. every word of the Qur'an he spoke he gave credit to God.

And he will tell them everything I command him
When the Qur'an was completed, Muhammad reviewed it for 25 years with the Angel Gabriel. He also preached to his followers countless times.

In Isaiah, there is a reference to the prophet being a descendant of Keldar. Keldar was an Ishmaelite and Muhammad is a descendant of Keldar.

John the Baptist was questioned by the Jews on who he was. they asked him three questions: Are you the Christ? Are you Elijiah? Are you the Prophet? The Jews were oviously expecting three different people. Jesus' prophecy is different, as seen in Matthew 1:23

I conclude that Muhammad was the prophet in Deut. 18:18

[Believer]

I was waiting for this to come up. This points to Christ, not Muhammed.
Also, Christians do recognize Christ as the greatest Prophet ever.
A prophet is just someone who reveals the will of God.

"The Lord your God will raise up for you A PROPHET LIKE ME from among your own BROTHERS. You must listen to him" (Deut. 18: 18.)

"among your own BROTHERS"- Jesus is a brother to the Israelites.
Muhammed is a COUSIN to the Israelites.

"I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him"- Jesus is the living Word of God.
The Father told him what to say to us.
Jesus did everything the Father commanded him to do.

"A PROPHET LIKE ME"
Jesus and Moses have ALOT in common.

Moses and Jesus were Jewish.
Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.
Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles.
God the Father spoke directly to both Moses and Jesus.
Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time.
Both had faces that radiated light.
Both worked miracles that both their followers and unbelievers observed.
Both fasted for forty days.
Both physically controlled water (making it possible to walk through or on it).
Both chemically controlled water (Moses turned water to blood Jesus turned water into wine).
Both Moses and Jesus knew when they would die.
They both died on a hill.
Jesus fed thousands of people with 2 fish and 5 loafs of bread (John 6:10-2) and Moses fed the Isrealites with manna (John 6:31).
Moses was a learned man and Jesus knew the Scripture well.
Moses and Jesus had followers that heard the voice of God
Moses and Jesus had a unique relationship with God.
Moses and Jesus both had to flee for their lives (Jesus was almost stoned)
Both Moses and Jesus were called to bring their people out of bondage
Both Jesus and Moses were disliked by the established authorities.
Moses gave the 10 commandments, Jesus gave the two Great commandments.
They both taught others how to pray
They lived a life of hardship
Their Followers strayed from their teachings

I conclude that Christ is the prophet like Moses

[Katatonic Bliss]

Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time.
Both had faces that radiated light.
Both worked miracles that both their followers and unbelievers observed.
Both fasted for forty days.
Both physically controlled water (making it possible to walk through or on it).
Moses was a learned man and Jesus knew the Scripture well.
Moses and Jesus had followers that heard the voice of God
Moses and Jesus had a unique relationship with God.
Moses and Jesus both had to flee for their lives (Jesus was almost stoned)
Both Moses and Jesus were called to bring their people out of bondage
Both Jesus and Moses were disliked by the established authorities.
They both taught others how to pray
They lived a life of hardship
Their Followers strayed from their teachings

The above listed are also applicable to Muhammad.

Moses gave the 10 commandments, Jesus gave the two Great commandments.

Muhammad gave 114 chapters of God's will.

"among your own BROTHERS"- Jesus is a brother to the Israelites.
Muhammed is a COUSIN to the Israelites.

Read a history book. Historians agree that the Ishmaelites are the Israelites brothers. The Prophet is also supposed to be a descendant of KELDAR.

[Believer]

Peace Katatonic Bliss,

Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time.
Both had faces that radiated light.

Scripture supports these, and Muhammed was not a meek man like Moses or Jesus.

Both worked miracles that both their followers and unbelievers observed.
Both fasted for forty days.

where did Muhammed fast for 40 days?

Both physically controlled water (making it possible to walk through or on it).

Where did Muhammed work a water changing miracle?

Moses was a learned man and Jesus knew the Scripture well.

You believe Muhammed was not very learned and He didn't know Scripture well

Moses and Jesus had followers that heard the voice of God
Moses and Jesus had a unique relationship with God.
Moses and Jesus both had to flee for their lives (Jesus was almost stoned)
Both Moses and Jesus were called to bring their people out of bondage

This is very important. As Moses lead the Israelites out of bondage into a new land and began the Old Covenant, so Christ lead us out of the bondage of sin and brought forth the New Covenant

Both Jesus and Moses were disliked by the established authorities.
They both taught others how to pray
They lived a life of hardship
Their Followers strayed from their teachings

Moses and Jesus were Jewish.
Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.
Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles.
God the Father spoke directly to both Moses and Jesus.

These are all so very important signifying how unique and similar Moses and Jesus are. They are definitely alot more similiar than Moses and Muhammed.

Read a history book. Historians agree that the Ishmaelites are the Israelites brothers. The Prophet is also supposed to be a descendant of KELDAR.

Irrelevant. The Bible never says this, and the Bible never implies this. In fact, it is absolutely stupid that God would tell Moses, the prophet of the holy covenant of Israel, that an Ishmaelite would be the prophet like him. That is a slap in the face on Israel. It is impossible because Jesus is the prophet like Moses. And Jesus is a Jew, a brother of Moses and the Israelites of the 1200's BC. Believe what is realistic and obvious. Muhammed is not the prophet in Deut. 18:18. That is the reality, the fact. Keep denying reality and live in a web of lies, that is up to you.

[carol_au]

Isaiah 42:1 declares "Behold my servant, who I uphold, mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my spirit upon him, he shall bring forth judgemen to the Gentiles"

Now, you assert that this messenger is not Jesus, but Muhammad. You claim this based on the titles that are given to Muhammad and to his life and history.

But, based on that very logic, please let me show you how it cannot be Muhammad.

Muhammad was given a number of titles.. including that of servant of Allah, and this seems to give credence to him being the servant of Isaiah.. but, he was given this title after he died. Now, the prophecies describe the servant as ruling the world, and giving judgement for it.

Now, your own Qur'an admits it's Jesus who will be involved on judgement day and not Muhammad. That He will return and prevail against His enemies, is something even Islam teaches.

Even if we accept that the prophecies related to the coming of Islam, Muhammad died before his armies had left Arabia, and he never judged even Jerusalem. Maybe we could claim that role for Mecca (and Medina in the early days), but definitely not outside Arabia.. and absolutely not the rest of the world.

In verse 6, as we just read, the servant is to be given as a covenat for the people and will be a light to the Gentiles. If Muhammad is the servant, in what way was he "given" ?

This chapter cannot be taken alone, it is part of the servant cycle prophecies of Isaiah which extend from Isaiah 40-66 .. and in particular look at chapter 53 which describes this of the suffering servant

vs 3 rejected
vs 5,6 sins of mankind laid upon him
vs8 killed
vs9 died with the wicked and was buried with the rich
vs9 did no violence
v11 raised from the dead

None of these fits the personal history of Muhammad.. so how can he be the Prophet of Dueteronomy 18, let alone the suffering servant of Isaiah?

Please read Acts 8 to see how Jesus HAS to be the Prophet of Duet 18.

Peace all

Carol

[ThirdAndLong]

This chapter cannot be taken alone, it is part of the servant cycle prophecies of Isaiah which extend from Isaiah 40-66 .. and in particular look at chapter 53 which describes this of the suffering servant

Peace Carol_
100% correct ..

We cannot look at Isaiah's prophecies and try to apply'em all on either Jesus or Mohammad alone ..it won't work ..


*(Isaiah 42:2) He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
( Matthew 27:46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
I think Isaiah 42 :2 must've had somebody else in mind then



**(Isaiah 42:3) A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Now if we try to interpret that verse along the lines of how Jesus was peaceful and such then this next verse doesn't fit Jesus:
(Isaiah 42:13) The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

Here's a different look at Isaiah 42:3 >> Jesus will not be hurt on the cross or elsewhere ..which supports Islam's view on him ..and another look : Mohammad won't be hurt either ..<<


***(Isaiah 42:10) Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.11) Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

Why was Kedar singled out here ? why not Gog or Magog or Jerusalem ? & could a new song mean a new way to pray / a new language ,,etc?
In short : Isaiah's prophecies were about BOTH Jesus & Mohammad (PBU Both) IMHO

[webmaster]

Synopsis: -
A provision respecting Levites. (1-8)
The abominations of the Canaanites to be avoided. (9-14)
Christ the great Prophet. (15-22)




Deuteronomy 18:15-22

15. Yahweh thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16. According to all that thou desiredst of Yahweh your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Yahweh my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17. And Yahweh said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.(John 12:49-50)
19. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name(Yahweh), I will require it of him.(John 12:47-48)
20. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.(Muhammad is dead and Jesus is alive)
21. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which Yahweh hath not spoken?
22. When a prophet speaketh in the name of Yahweh, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Yahweh hath NOT spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.


John 12:47-50
47. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

[Katatonic Bliss]

1. A Prophet like Moses.

There were hardly any two prophets who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad. Both were given a comprehensive law and code of life. Both encountered their enemies and were victorious in miraculous ways. Both were accepted as prophets and statesmen. Both migrated following conspiracies to kill them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlook not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well. These include the natural birth, the family life, and the death of Moses and Muhammad but not that of Jesus. Moreover, Jesus was regarded by his followers as the Son of God and not exclusively as a prophet, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslims believe Jesus was. So, this prophecy refers to Muhammad and not to Jesus, because Muhammad was more like Moses than Jesus.

Also, one notices that from the Gospel of John that the Jews were waiting for the fufillment of three distinct prophecies: 1) the coming of Christ. 2)The coming of Elijah. 3) The coming of the Prophet. This is obvious from the three questions that were posed to John the Baptist: "Now this was John's testimony, when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, 'I am not the Christ.' They asked him, 'Then who are you? Are you Elijah?' He said, "I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' He answered, 'No.'" [John 1:19-21] My Study Bible has cross references, and the marginal notes in it link Deut. 18:18 to the question of Are You The Prophet? that the Jews asked John the Baptist. I conclude that Jesus Christ is not the prophet in Deut. 18:18

2. From the Brothers of the Israelites
Abraham had two sons, Issac and Ishmael. Ishmael became the grandfather of the Arab race and Issac became the grandfather of the Jewish nation. The prophet spoken of was not to come from among the Jews themselves, but from among their brothers, i.e. the Ishmaelites. Muhammad, a descendant of Ishmael, is indeed this prophet. Also, Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the servant of God, His 'chosen one and messenger' who will bring down a law. "He will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes Justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." Verse 11 connects that awaited messenger with the descendants of Kedar. Who is Kedar? Kedar was the second son of Ishmael, and ancestor to the Prophet Muhammad.

3. God will put His words in the mouth of this Prophet. The Words of God were truly put into Muhammad's mouth. God sent the Angel Gabriel to teach Muhammad the exact words of God and asked him to dictate them to the people as he heard them. The words are therefore not his own. They did not come from his own thoughts but were put into his mouth by Gabriel.

Note that God said in the prophecy of Deutronomy: "If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." [Deut. 18:19] This means whoever believes in the Bible must believe in what this prophet says, and this prophet is Muhammad.

I rest my case.

[ThirdAndLong]

And how can Jesus be A g^d and a prophet at the same time? if you think Jesus was the prophet in Deut 18:18 then he cannot be a real g^d ..don't you agree?
..and BTW ,yes I'm aware of Moses being described as an Elohim-like to Pharaoh in Exodus 7:1..he wasn't a real g^d either .

[Believer]

Peace everyone,

And how can Jesus be A g^d and a prophet at the same time? if you think Jesus was the prophet in Deut 18:18 then he cannot be a real g^d ..don't you agree?
..and BTW ,yes I'm aware of Moses being described as an Elohim-like to Pharaoh in Exodus 7:1..he wasn't a real g^d either .

A prophet is just someone who speaks the Word of God to the people.
Since Christ was the living Word of God, He is the ultimate prophet.

There were hardly any two prophets who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad. Both were given a comprehensive law and code of life. Both encountered their enemies and were victorious in miraculous ways. Both were accepted as prophets and statesmen. Both migrated following conspiracies to kill them.

There were many people who gave the laws and codes of life and defeated their enemies, and were religious leaders and statesmen. Anyone with this power and success would have some conspirators seeking to kill him.

Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlook not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well.

Christ gave us the most effective and greatest law and code of life.
Christ worked many more miracles than Moses or Muhammed.
Christ was beyond statesman or prophet, He was a heavenly King.

These include the natural birth, the family life, and the death of Moses and Muhammad but not that of Jesus. Moreover, Jesus was regarded by his followers as the Son of God and not exclusively as a prophet, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslims believe Jesus was. So, this prophecy refers to Muhammad and not to Jesus, because Muhammad was more like Moses than Jesus.

This is really stupid!
Everyone from this world ws born naturally.
Jesus was well known as the Prophet.
Muhammed is nothing to compare to the awesome similarities between Jesus and Moses. Let me repeat them again.

Moses and Jesus were Jewish.
Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.
Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles.
God the Father spoke directly to both Moses and Jesus.
Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time.
Both had faces that radiated light.
Both worked miracles that both their followers and unbelievers observed.
Both fasted for forty days.
Both physically controlled water (making it possible to walk through or on it).
Both chemically controlled water (Moses turned water to blood Jesus turned water into wine).
Both Moses and Jesus knew when they would die.
They both died on a hill.
Jesus fed thousands of people with 2 fish and 5 loafs of bread (John 6:10-2) and Moses fed the Isrealites with manna (John 6:31).
Moses was a learned man and Jesus knew the Scripture well.
Moses and Jesus had followers that heard the voice of God
Moses and Jesus had a unique relationship with God.
Moses and Jesus both had to flee for their lives (Jesus was almost stoned)
Both Moses and Jesus were called to bring their people out of bondage
Both Jesus and Moses were disliked by the established authorities.
Moses gave the 10 commandments, Jesus gave the two Great commandments.
They both taught others how to pray
They lived a life of hardship
Their Followers strayed from their teachings

I conclude that Christ is the prophet like Moses

Only a misguided infidel could dismiss the overwhelming reality that Jesus is the Prophet like Moses.

Also, one notices that from the Gospel of John that the Jews were waiting for the fufillment of three distinct prophecies: 1) the coming of Christ. 2)The coming of Elijah. 3) The coming of the Prophet. This is obvious from the three questions that were posed to John the Baptist: "Now this was John's testimony, when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, 'I am not the Christ.' They asked him, 'Then who are you? Are you Elijah?' He said, "I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' He answered, 'No.'" [John 1:19-21] My Study Bible has cross references, and the marginal notes in it link Deut. 18:18 to the question of Are You The Prophet? that the Jews asked John the Baptist. I conclude that Jesus Christ is not the prophet in Deut. 18:18

John 6:14
When those men saw the big work that Jesus did, they said, `Truly, this is the Prophet that is to come into the world.'

John 7:40
When some of the people heard this they said, `Truly, this is the Prophet.'

2. From the Brothers of the Israelites
Abraham had two sons, Issac and Ishmael. Ishmael became the grandfather of the Arab race and Issac became the grandfather of the Jewish nation. The prophet spoken of was not to come from among the Jews themselves, but from among their brothers, i.e. the Ishmaelites. Muhammad, a descendant of Ishmael, is indeed this prophet. Also, Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the servant of God, His 'chosen one and messenger' who will bring down a law. "He will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes Justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." Verse 11 connects that awaited messenger with the descendants of Kedar. Who is Kedar? Kedar was the second son of Ishmael, and ancestor to the Prophet Muhammad.

This is fallacious because for one thing, the brother nation of Israel is Edom. Also, Muhammed is a second COUSIN of the Jews.
It is correct to say that the race of Jews in the 1st century AD were the brothers of the Jews of Moses's time. Jesus was a brother of Moses and the Jews.

3. God will put His words in the mouth of this Prophet. The Words of God were truly put into Muhammad's mouth. God sent the Angel Gabriel to teach Muhammad the exact words of God and asked him to dictate them to the people as he heard them. The words are therefore not his own. They did not come from his own thoughts but were put into his mouth by Gabriel.

What about all of the Hadiths and Sunnah? There are Muhammed's words and you are obligated to believe the word of Muhammed.
Now every word that Christ says was the word of God because Christ was God.

Note that God said in the prophecy of Deutronomy: "If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." [Deut. 18:19] This means whoever believes in the Bible must believe in what this prophet says, and this prophet is Muhammad.

One big problem for you, Muhammed is NOT this prophet. Stop denying reality for blatant lies. Jesus Christ is the Prophet.

[Katatonic Bliss]

What about all of the Hadiths and Sunnah? There are Muhammed's words and you are obligated to believe the word of Muhammed.
Now every word that Christ says was the word of God because Christ was God.

God says to listen to the Prophets and obey them.

One big problem for you, Muhammed is NOT this prophet. Stop denying reality for blatant lies. Jesus Christ is the Prophet.

This is not a problem. You are backing claims with irrelevant material.

[Believer]

God says to listen to the Prophets and obey them

We're talking about God putting word for word in this Prophet's mouth. Now every word that Christ spoke was the direct Word of God.

This is not a problem. You are backing claims with irrelevant material.

That's BS.
I gave you a big list of Jesus-Moses similarities, and I explained to you whta "brother" means. It doesn't mean "cousin" it means "brother"
Jesus was a brother to Moses and the Jews of his time.
This "irrelevant material" is the blatant realityt. You have given me irrelevant material.
How can the similarities bwteen Moses and Muhammed even compare to the many similiarities bwteen Jesus and Moses????

Okay, Moses and Muhammed had a normal birth.
They were men, they had wives, they lived in the desert...these are BS similarities. This describes most men in Arabia and the Sahara!
Jesus and Moses share unique and special similarities.

[AbuKhaalid]

Hello and peace be upon the believers!

We can debate as much as we want on this topic but here's something which everyone seems to forget!

Did you know that early christians and monks became Muslim when they recognized Muhammad as the prophet which has been prophesized in their scriptures?

Who were these people and what scriptures did they have?

They were mainly christian arabs and they had scriptures which was illegal in the west. Rememebr how the trinitarians would burn everyone alive toghether with their gospels if that gospel was not the 'canonized' one?

Why such extreme measures...hmm

The Quran says:

"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book (i.e., the Bible), but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"

"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment. (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"

Yes they conceals many books and destroyed many because there was clearer descriptions about THE TRUE JESUS! And also there were clearer descriptions about Muhammad peace be upon him. Why would they choose gospels written much after jesus... like 30AD when they had more precise ones. Did anyone read the GOSPELS OF BARNABAS??

You have been tricked by the Pagan Constantine 320 AD and now you keep following the religion of your ancestors.

[Believer]

And did you know there were Islamic scholars that became Christains as said Muhammed was a fraud???
You may start another thread, what you say is not relevant to this thread.

[Katatonic Bliss]

Ameen Brother!

[Believer]

They were mainly christian arabs and they had scriptures which was illegal in the west. Rememebr how the trinitarians would burn everyone alive toghether with their gospels if that gospel was not the 'canonized' one?

Remember in the last cenrury how Islamic religious fighting killed millions of Christians.

[Katatonic Bliss]

Remember the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades? Also how the Catholic Church came to power? You talk about 'Muslims' [which are not muslims because Islam is derived from the root word Salaam which means peace] yet your religion is bloodstained since the Council of Nicea.

[Believer]

It's interesting that you are refering to incidents of the past, when the biggest nastiest genocides by Muslims are happening at thie very moment in the Sudan and Indonesia.

The Crusades were the result of Christians adopting Islamic theology.
The idea of holy wars to gain back holy land was not something taught by Christ. Remember the Crusaders acted against Christ's teachings.
Was Muhammed and Omar's bloodsheding a contradiction of the Quran?

[Katatonic Bliss]

It's interesting that you are refering to incidents of the past, when the biggest nastiest genocides by Muslims are happening at thie very moment in the Sudan and Indonesia.

The Crusades were the result of Christians adopting Islamic theology.
The idea of holy wars to gain back holy land was not something taught by Christ. Remember the Crusaders acted against Christ's teachings.
Was Muhammed and Omar's bloodsheding a contradiction of the Quran?

This is exactly my point. The people in the crusades did not act upon Christ's teachings... thats why the Muslims kicked their ***... no offence.

Those freaks killing over there are not Muslims. They are psychos.

[Believer]

There are lots of psychos then. I guess real Muslims are a minority.
I guess a "perfect" revelation didn't help!
Really, Omar led major holy wars against other nations, is he a psycho also??

[Katatonic Bliss]

There are lots of psychos then. I guess real Muslims are a minority.
I guess a "perfect" revelation didn't help!
Really, Omar led major holy wars against other nations, is he a psycho also??

Real Muslims don't make the 6:00 news.

The Revelation was perfect, but the people aren't. If your Injeel was perfect, people still wouldn't convert.

Omar... he was a Caliph... gah. Bad memory. Ill go with what I know about the Ottomans.... The Ottomans conquered other countries but never forced anyone into Islam... The conquered people were divided into sects called millets based upon religion....

[Believer]

Here's a real historical letter written by Omar to the Persian King.

http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic.php?t=3815

He basically threatens the empire to convert to Islam or be invaded and forced to Islam. Real historical document too, can you believe it??

[carol_au]

(Isaiah 42:10) Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.11) Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.
the isles, and the inWhy was Kedar singled out here ? why not Gog or Magog or Jerusalem ? & could a new song mean a new way to pray / a new language ,,etc?

Peace ThirdandLong

I can understand your reasoning here, but may I show you some other prophecies regarding Kedar that show you that there is a end to their existance? I think then you will see that unless the entire prophecies of Isaiah are not true ( in which case you can't claim they prophesy about Muhammed) they must relate to the servant being from elsewhere...

Please read Isaiah 21:16-17

16
6 For thus says the Lord to me: In another year, like those of a hireling, all the glory of Kedar shall come to an end.
17
Few of Kedar's stalwart archers shall remain, for the LORD, the God of Israel, has spoken.

Now.. to understand the meaning of calling "kedar" a hireling, you have to read Isaiah 16:4

But now the LORD has spoken: In three years, like those of a hireling, the glory of Moab shall be degraded despite all its great multitude; there shall be a remnant, very small and weak.

Moab was also called a hireling and the understanding here is that a hireling is hired for a period of time and is not considered a permanent fixture.

Kedars glory was to come to an end.. just like that of a hireling, it was for a fixed period of time only.


Now, you ask about the "new song".. could it be a new language? (Arabic you mean of course).

Well.. to answer that, you have to ask what is the new song they are asked to share amongst the nations... and that is seen in vs 10-17

It is the glory of the Lord.. the one who is the Creator of all things. Who is the Song to be sung by? It's the inhabitants of those places mentioned..

The world in its totality, which includes the earth, sea, islands, deserts and cities, is invited to raise a "new song" to the Lord (see Isaiah 42:10-12). The whole of space is involved to its furthest horizontal confines, which even include the unknown, as well as its vertical dimension, which starts from the desert plane, where the nomad tribes of Kedar are found (see Isaiah 21:16-17), and rises to the mountains. The city of Sela is found there, identified by many with Petra, in the territory of the Edomites, a city placed among rocky peaks.

All the inhabitants of the earth are invited to form a sort of immense choir to acclaim the Lord with exultation and give him glory.


Now.. please look at Matthew

Verses 12:15-21 for the identity of the Servant is clearly established here...

15Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, 16warning them not to tell who he was. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
    18"Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
       the one I love, in whom I delight;
   I will put my Spirit on him,
       and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
    19He will not quarrel or cry out;
       no one will hear his voice in the streets.
    20A bruised reed he will not break,
       and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
   till he leads justice to victory.
        21In his name the nations will put their hope."[3]

In Isaiah 42 all nations are told to focus on the Servant... Again a clear reminder of the Covenant Promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3 that all nations of the earth would be blessed through Him and His seed.

[AbuKhaalid]

Yes 'Believer' Islam has come to remove falsehood and there are more letters from Muhammad peace be upon him. All Islamic leaders went to invite others to accept Islam. In case they refuse, they still had a chance to pay the 'protection tax' and if they still refused, they would be conquered. But this doesnt mean that they lose their rights... in fact everyone was free to keep their own religions. Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together in peace. The conquest was the way at that time to bring the message of Islam into a foreign land.

Anyway, the main discussion is about Muhammad in the Bible. I think some Christians try to talk about politics when they start to fail to bring arguments

Kedar is the father of Arab nations and is the descendent of Ishmael. But there are Christian arabs too. Amamzingly, the largest Muslim county isnt an Arab country but its an 'indo-chinese' country! Now the number of converts to Islam in western countries esp. the States is amazing! So who cares about some versses whch probably is speaking about those Christian Arabs...

[AbuKhaalid]

Also, unlike what 'Believer' said, my first post was very revelant because you have to consider all scriptures before. You quote parts of verses and twist them according to your own desires.Believer said about Deu 18:18

"among your own BROTHERS"- Jesus is a brother to the Israelites.
Muhammed is a COUSIN to the Israelites.

You can be more mistaken buddy. Either that or you just twisted the information. You see, “BROTHERS” means having the same parents i.e Abraham, peace be upon him. So you see we are talking about 2 nations, that of Isac and Ismael who have the same parent. Jesus himself is a descendent of David. David is a descendent of Judah, son of Jacob (Israel). If jesus was meant here it would have said " a prophet from among Yourselves". However this piece of verse alone doesn’t make the case…

Kat has a very good point which I will quote: “…the three questions that were posed to John the Baptist: "Now this was John's testimony, when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, 'I am not the Christ.' They asked him, 'Then who are you? Are you Elijah?' He said, "I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' He answered, 'No.'" [John 1:19-21] My Study Bible has cross references, and the marginal notes in it link Deut. 18:18 to the question of Are You The Prophet? that the Jews asked John the Baptist. I conclude that Jesus Christ is not the prophet in Deut. 18:18”

Th problem with Christians is that they do not know who Muhammad peace be upon him really was... apart from the twisted info they get from some anti-islam sites. So how can you recognize Muhamad, Ilam or Muslims etc... in the Bible without the slightest knowledge about it, even if you read your scriptures millions of times!!

Quran 2:146 " Those whom we gave the scripture recognized him (Muhammad) as they recognized their sons. But verily, some of them concealed the truth"

Like I said, Deu 18:18 alone cannot show that Muhammad peace be upon him was indeed prophesized in the Bible...

Jeremiah 28:9 " he prophet which prophesieth of peace, when the word of the Lord shall ocme to pass, the shall the prophet be known, that the Lord hath truly snt him" - This is only applicable to Muhammad, since the prophesized peace... which in arabic means ISLAM. You probably think it can apply to Jesus too. But then, Luke 12:51 says "suppose ye that I come to give peace on earth? I tell you Nay, but rather divison." See Matthew 10:34 as well

Mathew 21:43 " Therefore I say unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and GIVEN TO A NATION BRINGING FORTH THE FRUITS THEREOF" This is a goo hint from Jesus sayin there will be a sift in prophethood.

Now read Isaiah 21:14-17... Anyone who studies the life of the prophet Muhammad pace be upon him will quickly understnd this verse which is crystal clear. If you need me to explain, then I'll tell you what these verses mean to Muslims.

Now continuing with Isaiah 42, like Kat said it only applies to Muhammad peace be upon him

Un-lettered Prophet

Muhummed's experience in the cave of Hira, later to be known as Jabal-un Noor - The Mountain of Light, and his response to that first Revelation is the exact fulfilment of another Biblical Prophecy. In the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 29, verse 12, we read: "AND THE BOOK" (al-Kitaab,al-Quran the 'Reading', the 'Recitation') "IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED," (Isaiah 29:12) "THE UNLETTERED PROPHET " (Holy Qur'an 7:158) and the biblical verse continues : "SAYING, READ THIS, I PRAY THEE:" (the words "I pray thee", are not in the Hebrew manuscripts; compare with the Roman Catholics' "Douay Version and also with the "Revised Standard Versions") "AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." ("I am not learned." is the exact translation of the Arabic words MA ANA BEQARA which Muhummed uttered twice to the Holy Ghost - the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded : IQRAA "READ!").

Let me quote the verse in full without a break as found in the "King James Version," or the "Authorised version" as it is more popularly known "AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." (Isaiah 29:12).

The Acid Test

To the lambs of Christ I say, why not apply that acid test which the Master himself wanted you to apply to any would be claimant to prophethood? He had said: "BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. DO MEN GATHER GRAPES FROM THE THORNS, OR FIGS FROM THE THISTLES? EVERY GOOD TREE WILL BEAR GOOD FRUIT AND EVERY EVIL TREE WILL BEAR EVIL FRUIT....BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. (Matthew 7:16-20).

Why are you afraid to apply this test to the teachings of Muhummed? You will find in the Last Testament of God - the Holy Qur'an - the true fulfilment of the teachings of Moses and Jesus which will bring to the world the much-needed peace and happiness. "IF A MAN LIKE MOHAMED WERE TO ASSUME THE DIC TATORSHIP OF THE MODERN WORLD, HE WOULD SUCCEED IN SOLVING ITS PROBLEMS THAT WOULD BRING IT THE MUCH NEEDED PEACE AND HAPPINESS." (George Bernard Shaw)

[Believer]

Peace AbuKhaalid,

Yes 'Believer' Islam has come to remove falsehood and there are more letters from Muhammad peace be upon him. All Islamic leaders went to invite others to accept Islam. In case they refuse, they still had a chance to pay the 'protection tax' and if they still refused, they would be conquered. But this doesnt mean that they lose their rights

And you admit it yourelf! This stands as a testament that Islam is a ungodly cult that seriously regressed from Christ's teachings. Religion is not something that is to be imposed on others, and Muslims have no right to invade another nation to impose their religion. There is no reason why Islamic missionaries couldn't peacefully convert the people of these nations, following early Christians example in Europe and Africa.

Certainly Jesus Christ would have condemned Muslim conquest.

You quote parts of verses and twist them according to your own desires

This is what you Muslims do with the scriptures.

You can be more mistaken buddy. Either that or you just twisted the information. You see, “BROTHERS” means having the same parents i.e Abraham, peace be upon him. So you see we are talking about 2 nations, that of Isac and Ismael who have the same parent. Jesus himself is a descendent of David. David is a descendent of Judah, son of Jacob (Israel). If jesus was meant here it would have said " a prophet from among Yourselves". However this piece of verse alone doesn’t make the case…

Israel's father was Isaac. Israel's brother nation is Edom.
That is not what is said in Deut 18:18.
Don't be an idiot, "brother" means a Jew of the future.
Jesus was a brother to Moses and those Israelites.
Anyways, the amazing similarities between Christ and Moses prove further that Christ is this prophet.

Kat has a very good point which I will quote: “…the three questions that were posed to John the Baptist: "Now this was John's testimony, when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, 'I am not the Christ.' They asked him, 'Then who are you? Are you Elijah?' He said, "I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' He answered, 'No.'" [John 1:19-21] My Study Bible has cross references, and the marginal notes in it link Deut. 18:18 to the question of Are You The Prophet? that the Jews asked John the Baptist. I conclude that Jesus Christ is not the prophet in Deut. 18:18”

Quire a poor conclusion. The Jews misunderstoof the scriptures for one thing, they still think Elijah will come back. Every Passover feast there is an empty chair at the table for Elijah.

Jesus is the expacted prophet!

[cololr=blue]John 6:14
When those men saw the big work that Jesus did, they said, `Truly, this is the Prophet that is to come into the world.'

John 7:40
When some of the people heard this they said, `Truly, this is the Prophet[/color]

And obviously the Messiah is higher than a prophet, so He is the greatest prophet.

Th problem with Christians is that they do not know who Muhammad peace be upon him really was... apart from the twisted info they get from some anti-islam sites. So how can you recognize Muhamad, Ilam or Muslims etc... in the Bible without the slightest knowledge about it, even if you read your scriptures millions of times!!

Rather you're gettimng twisted info from the QUran.

Jeremiah 28:9 " he prophet which prophesieth of peace, when the word of the Lord shall ocme to pass, the shall the prophet be known, that the Lord hath truly snt him" - This is only applicable to Muhammad, since the prophesized peace... which in arabic means ISLAM. You probably think it can apply to Jesus too. But then, Luke 12:51 says "suppose ye that I come to give peace on earth? I tell you Nay, but rather divison." See Matthew 10:34 as well

Typical twisting the meaning of scripture.
Christ is this prophet, but because of Christ's name, many people have been martyred.
Muhammed actually did come with the sword.

Mathew 21:43 " Therefore I say unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and GIVEN TO A NATION BRINGING FORTH THE FRUITS THEREOF" This is a goo hint from Jesus sayin there will be a sift in prophethood.

Actually Christ meant that the Israelites shall reject Him, and the Gentile people shall be the ones who form the majority of the New Covenant.


Verse 12 is about people asking Christ what He meant by His Word, but still nobody understands Him. Not everyone understands the Gospels because some people like you are spiritually illiterate, You lack spiritual insight. You try to anaylze Gospels with your mind, but God says His wonders shall boggle the human mind.

Actually Isaiah 29 contains a prophecy for Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 29:13
13 The Lord says:

"These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men.
14 Therefore once more I will astound these people
with wonder upon wonder;
the wisdom of the wise will perish,
the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."


Matthew 15:1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"
10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'

Why are you afraid to apply this test to the teachings of Muhummed?

We're not.
Muhammed briught a false doctrine that seriously regresses from Christ's teachings.
Muhammed brought the sword, he was a man of war, still a pagan at heart.

[Katatonic Bliss]

We're not.
Muhammed briught a false doctrine that seriously regresses from Christ's teachings.
Muhammed brought the sword, he was a man of war, still a pagan at heart.

So prove these teachings false.

[Believer]

So prove these teachings false.

Matthew 19:7-9
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

The teachings of the Quran regress from Christ's teachings.
Jesus says that a divorcee who remarries commits adultery.
So Muhammed was an adulterer according to Christ's teachings.
Islam says divorce is acceptable. Well, only Moses wrote laws on divorce. Divorce was not from God. Islam only verifes what human beings wrote.
Jesus taught thay we should love our enemies.
Muhammed did not love his enemies. He was an absolute failure as a prophet in that he did not live up to Christ's teachings.
Jesus says even pagans love those who love them, and hate those who hate them.

A revelation of God does not regress from previous revelations, rather it builds off previous revelations. Islam does not build off of Christianity.
Do you understand what I'm saying?

So how can you wake up every morning and follow a religion like Islam? It is evident that Islam takes you away from Christ's teachings! You really think Islam is from God??? You think God gives a revelation that would regress from His previous revelation? Realize that Islam does not verify the "good stuff" in the Gospels. It was put here solely to mislead you from the Gospels.

[AbuKhaalid]

Believer... you only bring forth accusations so far... you have no proof at all when you speak about islam

So its not worth talkng to close minds

You follow the religion of your forefathers even though it has flaws. And you dont use your brains except to think according to what you have been taught by the church. The same church which hid and destroyed 100s of gospels and burnt those poeple who had them too. Why such drastiic measures... why would thy not want you to know??

If you really wanted to study Islam, you wouldnt sound so... "un-intelligent" to put it in a nice way. So dont be offended, rather, open your heart and mind to the truth.

[ThirdAndLong]

Peace Carol_

Please read Isaiah 21:16-17
16- For thus says the Lord to me: In another year, like those of a hireling, all the glory of Kedar shall come to an end. -17- Few of Kedar's stalwart archers shall remain, for the LORD, the God of Israel, has spoken.

The children of Kedar represent Arabia & they're Prophet Mohammad's cousins who rejected him as a messenger from God ..they forced the Prophet to leave his hometown of Mecca to Medinah ,only to be defeated a year later in the battle of "Badr" ,that's what Isaiah 21:16 foretold .."the few remaining archers" in verse 17 refers to Khalid bin Alwaleed ,Omro bin alAS and others who were among the few from Kedar's children who survived and became strong defenders of Islam .

Kedars glory was to come to an end.. just like that of a hireling, it was for a fixed period of time only.

And it came to an end at the hands of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH).

Now, you ask about the "new song".. could it be a new language? (Arabic you mean of course). Well.. to answer that, you have to ask what is the new song they are asked to share amongst the nations... and that is seen in vs 10-17 It is the glory of the Lord.. the one who is the Creator of all things. Who is the Song to be sung by? It's the inhabitants of those places mentioned..

Agreed ..
After the defeat of Kedar in Badr the stage was set for Islam to be uncontested in the area ..the glory of the Lord is now being sung differently than before ..more openly ( singing = saying w/o fear =out loud = insinuating a liberation of sort = the Prophet re-entering Mecca victorious) ..Isaiah 28:11 " for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people " reaffirms the new language part of the prophecy .
One thing is missing from KJV in Isaiah 42:11 where the name of the mountain is not mentioned , however in the Hebrew and the Arabic Bibles the mountain's name is "SELA" Hebrew Bible Isaiah 42:11 " Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit; let the inhabitants of * Sela* exult, let them shout from the top of the mountains." >> this mountain is right next to the city of Medinah and it is called "Sela" even to this day , and it is where God accepted the repentance of 3 of the Prophets followers who stayed behind and didn't join the Moslem army during the battle of " Tabuk" .

Now.. please look at Matthew

Verses 12:15-21 for the identity of the Servant is clearly established here...
15Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, 16warning them not to tell who he was. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
18"Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
19He will not quarrel or cry out;
no one will hear his voice in the streets.
20A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
till he leads justice to victory.
21In his name the nations will put their hope."[3]
In Isaiah 42 all nations are told to focus on the Servant... Again a clear reminder of the Covenant Promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3 that all nations of the earth would be blessed through Him and His seed.

Verse # 19 of Matthew 12 ,in itself excludes Jesus as the expected prophet >> "19 He will not quarrel or cry out;
no one will hear his voice in the streets.<<

since we know that the person on the cross as written in Matthew 27: 46 did cry out with a loud voice "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice saying Eli, Eli lama sabachthani ? .."

[Believer]

Believer... you only bring forth accusations so far... you have no proof at all when you speak about islam

So its not worth talkng to close minds

You follow the religion of your forefathers even though it has flaws. And you dont use your brains except to think according to what you have been taught by the church. The same church which hid and destroyed 100s of gospels and burnt those people who had them too. Why such drastiic measures... why would thy not want you to know??

If you really wanted to study Islam, you wouldnt sound so... "un-intelligent" to put it in a nice way. So dont be offended, rather, open your heart and mind to the truth.

Perhaps you should reread the post of mine.
I gave you the solid proof, I only made an observation between our religions.

Jesus said divorce is wrong.
Islam teaches divorce os okay.
Jesus said that God loves everyone, and we must love even our enemies.
Islam teaches that God does not love everyone and does not affirm the "love you enemies" teaching of Christ which is essential.
Muhammed did not love his enemies and he stones adulteresses and killed people.
Jesus Christ never killed or hurt anyone and He spared adulteresses from being stoned.

These are observations between Islam and Christianity. This is not conjecture or accusation, this is a reality. Your religion regresses from mine showing it is false indeed.

[AbuKhaalid]

YOu mentioned all these:

"Jesus said divorce is wrong.
Islam teaches divorce os okay.
Jesus said that God loves everyone, and we must love even our enemies.
Islam teaches that God does not love everyone and does not affirm the "love you enemies" teaching of Christ which is essential.
Muhammed did not love his enemies and he stones adulteresses and killed people.
Jesus Christ never killed or hurt anyone and He spared adulteresses from being stoned."

Ok, Jesus taught divorce is wrong... but it turn out that divorce rate among crhistians is very high!

Islam is more moderate: Divorce is a destested act (which you forgot to mention) but its allowed under certain circumstances.

Islam has laws closer to the OT.

"Your religion regresses from mine showing it is false indeed." You make me laugh! Can you actually hear what you say?? So just because mine doesnt agree with yours this means that mine cannot be good??? What kind of Logic is that!!

YOur religions is not that of Jesus but that of Paul who was decieved!

And you said "I gave you the solid proof, I only made an observation between our religions." Yes you made an OBSERVATION... hows an observation a proof? Ever took science at school? If you need comparizons, I can give you some.

As for the topic:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee..."- Before you attemp to twist anything concerning Islam plz answer these (I'll wait 4 your anser):

Did Jesus have a father and Mother like Moses?
According to you, Jesus is God. Is Moses God too?
According to you, Jesus died on a cross. Did Moses die on a cross?
Moses got married and had children. Did Jesus?
Was Moses rejected by his own people like the case of Jesus?
Moses brought the law. What new did Jesus Bring? (He himself followed the Torah!)
Both Moses and Muhammed peace be upon them was buried after natural death. Was Jesus?

Also you have disputed over the point "their brethen". Lets see:
The Bible affirms, 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.' (Genesis 16:12). 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhummed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- 'FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN'.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves', but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!

Muhummed's experience in the cave of Hira, later to be known as Jabal-un Noor - The Mountain of Light, and his response to that first Revelation is the exact fulfilment of another Biblical Prophecy. In the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 29, verse 12, we read: "AND THE BOOK" (al-Kitaab,al-Quran the 'Reading', the 'Recitation') "IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED," (Isaiah 29:12) "THE UNLETTERED PROPHET " (Holy Qur'an 7:158) and the biblical verse continues : "SAYING, READ THIS, I PRAY THEE:" (the words "I pray thee", are not in the Hebrew manuscripts; compare with the Roman Catholics' "Douay Version and also with the "Revised Standard Versions") "AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." ("I am not learned." is the exact translation of the Arabic words MA ANA BEQARA which Muhummed uttered twice to the Holy Ghost - the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded : IQRAA "READ!").

Let me quote the verse in full without a break as found in the "King James Version," or the "Authorised version" as it is more popularly known "AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." (Isaiah 29:12).

"BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM."

[Believer]

Peace AbuKhaalid,

Ok, Jesus taught divorce is wrong... but it turn out that divorce rate among crhistians is very high!

Not everyone who calls themelve a "christian" is a Christian.
These people commit adultery in the eyes of God.

Islam is more moderate: Divorce is a destested act (which you forgot to mention) but its allowed under certain circumstances.

Jesus said only maital unfaithfullness was a valid reason for a divorce. That is plenty enough moderate.
Were all of Muhammed's wives unfaithful to him?
According to Christ's teachings, Muhammed would be an adulterer.

Islam has laws closer to the OT.

Many of the OT laws were made by the prophet Moses, and did not come from God.


Matthew 19
(Divorce)

1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

"Your religion regresses from mine showing it is false indeed." You make me laugh! Can you actually hear what you say?? So just because mine doesnt agree with yours this means that mine cannot be good??? What kind of Logic is that!!

What kind of logic is this???
Honestly, do you believe a revelation of God would regress from a previous revelation? Or would it confirm and build off a previous revelation? Satan wants to turn people away from God and His Laws.

Did Jesus have a father and Mother like Moses?
According to you, Jesus is God. Is Moses God too?
According to you, Jesus died on a cross. Did Moses die on a cross?
Moses got married and had children. Did Jesus?
Was Moses rejected by his own people like the case of Jesus?
Moses brought the law. What new did Jesus Bring? (He himself followed the Torah!)
Both Moses and Muhammed peace be upon them was buried after natural death. Was Jesus?

I have a mother and father, and I'm not God either, I'm going to get married and have children like most people. Realize that most people could be this Prophet according to you.
Moses and Jesus died on a hill.

Does Muhammed have more in common with Moses then Jesus?
Does he fit all of these and more?

Moses and Jesus were Jewish.
Both Moses and Jesus hid in Egypt (as children) during a slaughter of babies.
Moses commanded 12 tribes while Jesus commanded 12 apostles.
God the Father spoke directly to both Moses and Jesus.
Moses and Jesus were both called the meekest of all men at their time.
Both had faces that radiated light.
Both worked miracles that both their followers and unbelievers observed.
Both fasted for forty days.
Both physically controlled water (making it possible to walk through or on it).
Both chemically controlled water (Moses turned water to blood Jesus turned water into wine).
Both Moses and Jesus knew when they would die.
They both died on a hill.
Jesus fed thousands of people with 2 fish and 5 loafs of bread (John 6:10-2) and Moses fed the Isrealites with manna (John 6:31).
Moses was a learned man and Jesus knew the Scripture well.
Moses and Jesus had followers that heard the voice of God
Moses and Jesus had a unique relationship with God.
Moses and Jesus both had to flee for their lives (Jesus was almost stoned)
Both Moses and Jesus were called to bring their people out of bondage
Both Jesus and Moses were disliked by the established authorities.
Moses gave the 10 commandments, Jesus gave the two Great commandments.
They both taught others how to pray
They lived a life of hardship
Their Followers strayed from their teachings

Also you have disputed over the point "their brethen". Lets see:
The Bible affirms, 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.' (Genesis 16:12). 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:1. The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhummed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- 'FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN'.(Deut.18:1. There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves', but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!

Genesis 16:12 reads:
"He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers."

This wild ass is an enemy of his brothers.


Muhammed is among the cousins of the Israelites, because Israel's brother is Edom. Now in this case "brethren" does in fact mean Jews of a later time. Jesus is a brother of Moses and his Israelites. Only an idiot would believe that God woukld make a holy covenant with Israel and tell His greatest prophet Moses that's He's going to make the final prophet and Ishmaelite. That is just stupid.
The Israelites never once believed the Prophet was an Ishmaelite.
This Prophet is the Son ofman who is the Messiah.
Scriptures say the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the Almighty after He ascends to Heaven.

Muhummed's experience in the cave of Hira, later to be known as Jabal-un Noor - The Mountain of Light, and his response to that first Revelation is the exact fulfilment of another Biblical Prophecy. In the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 29, verse 12, we read: "AND THE BOOK" (al-Kitaab,al-Quran the 'Reading', the 'Recitation') "IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED," (Isaiah 29:12) "THE UNLETTERED PROPHET " (Holy Qur'an 7:158) and the biblical verse continues : "SAYING, READ THIS, I PRAY THEE:" (the words "I pray thee", are not in the Hebrew manuscripts; compare with the Roman Catholics' "Douay Version and also with the "Revised Standard Versions") "AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." ("I am not learned." is the exact translation of the Arabic words MA ANA BEQARA which Muhummed uttered twice to the Holy Ghost - the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded : IQRAA "READ!").

This section of Isaiah 29 is about the blindness and perversity of the prophets and seers. They will not understand Jesus Christ's teachings no understand who He is, and they seek to kill Him. That is what is being implied here. Nothing to do with Muhammed.

The Holy Spirit is the very Spirit of the LORD, no angel...even Jews believe this! Man, you have a perverted view who the Spirit is!

"BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM."

And we see that Muhammed brought the sword to many people and had sex with a little girl. He bore evil fruit.

[carol_au]

Peace Thirdandlong

You said some interesting things about the Prophet and about Kedar, so let's explore this a little more.

your comment relating to kedar is interesting.. yes, it does refer to Arabia and there is no problem with that, but in this context, the description of Kedar's glory coming to an end, has no connection to a prophet at all.

In context, it is a prophecy that the Assyrians will attack northern Arabia, destroy their pomp and armies, leaving them with only a few remaining bowman.

This actually happened when Sargon, King of Assyria came down and attacked them in 715BC. He had been talked about in the previous chapter Isaiah 20:1 and the time limit given was "within one year" so how can this relate to a prophet who came some 1400 years later?


Now.. your next comment tries to tie the event you described (the defeat at Badr with this prophesy),

Isaiah 42 discusses the new song that will be sang...

May I show you the content of this new song.. David and others of the Psalmists spoke of it many years before Isaiah, and all in prophesying the coming Servant/Messiah

Psalm 40:3-7

3 He put a new song in my mouth,
a hymn of praise to our God.
Many will see and fear
and put their trust in the LORD .

4 Blessed is the man
who makes the LORD his trust,
who does not look to the proud,
to those who turn aside to false gods.
5 Many, O LORD my God,
are the wonders you have done.
The things you planned for us
no one can recount to you;
were I to speak and tell of them,
they would be too many to declare.

6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but my ears you have pierced
burnt offerings and sin offerings
you did not require.
7 Then I said, "Here I am, I have come-
it is written about me in the scroll.

By the way.. In case you are wondering about the identity of the person speaking in vs 7.. it's here in Luke 4:17-21

Luke 4
17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
    18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
       because he has anointed me
       to preach good news to the poor.
   He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
       and recovery of sight for the blind,
   to release the oppressed,
        19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

Finally you said

Verse # 19 of Matthew 12 ,in itself excludes Jesus as the expected prophet >> "19 He will not quarrel or cry out;
no one will hear his voice in the streets.<<

since we know that the person on the cross as written in Matthew 27: 46 did cry out with a loud voice "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice saying Eli, Eli lama sabachthani ? .."

It's interesting.. not once did Jesus cry out against the people who were torturing Him. At one stage, so puzzled by the way he was taking what was being done to him, Pilate asked him "do you refuse to speak to me? Don't you realise I have the power to free you or to crucify you?" (John 19:11). Not once did Jesus speak out against what they were doing.. why? because of John 19:11

"you would have no power over me, if it were not given to you from above".

What took place on the cross had nothing to do with Jesus shouting at the people.. He was crying out in acceptance of what was happening. Don't you think He could have called ten thousand angels to come and help Him if He had wanted too? God didn't need to go throught that.. but He chose too. Why? So that you and I could sing a new song.. a song of faith, hope and forgiveness.

Oh.. and Muhammed didn't cry out eh? Let me see

Surah 2:216-17 states

Fighting is prescribed upon you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows and you know not. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Now will they cease fighting until they turn you back from the faith if they can."

and herein lies the biggest difference between Jesus and Muhammed and the reason why one is the SERVANT of Isaiah and the other isn't.

Jesus Christ shed His own blood on the cross so that people would come to God. Muhammed shed other's blood so that his constituents would have political power throughout the Arabian Peninsula. Did Muhammed shed people's blood only as a last resort?

you quote the Battle of Badr in March 624. So let's look at the circumstances again.

Muhammed led three hundred men against a large caravan of merchants enroute to Mecca. There was perhaps 50 000 dollars worth of booty for the taking.

Meccans sent 950 troops to challenge the Muslims. The enounter was a brief and convincing victory for the Mulims who lost 14 men and took 70 meccans as prisoners. The prophet attributed the victory to Allah and then proclaimed another revelation

"O Apostle, Rouse the Believers to the fight, if there are twenty amongst you, they will vanquish 200, if a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers." surah 8:65

How can the New Song to be sung amongst the nations be this song when it clearly is a message of war? How can this song be sung by a messenger who is not meant to cry out .. when muhammad led so many of these battles and cried out against "the infidels".

And.. in case you don't think this is personal.. Jesus never cried out when they tortured him. When a woman ridiculed the prophet, he had her put to death with her baby still in her arms. ( woman was Asma, a poet who satirised the prophet. She was nursing one of her seven children, when in response to a question by Muhammad as to who was going to deal with her, Umayr ibn Awf one of the military leaders tore the child from her arms and killed the mother)...

what more is there to say???

[Bushmaster]

Why are you afraid to apply this test to the teachings of Muhummed?

What? For example; drink camel, horse urine?? He didn't only teach "peace" you know...

[AbuKhaalid]

Quote: "Were all of Muhammed's wives unfaithful to him?
According to Christ's teachings, Muhammed would be an adulterer. "

What are you talking about??? PLz, if this is an accusation... forget it. Get your information from real Muslims if you are sincere to learn about Islam

God sends prophets to correct people who have deviated.

YOU said "Honestly, do you believe a revelation of God would regress from a previous revelation? Or would it confirm and build off a previous revelation? Satan wants to turn people away from God and His Laws. "

So hinduism was before christianity! Does that mean christianity built off the vedas??

"I have a mother and father, and I'm not God either, I'm going to get married and have children like most people. Realize that most people could be this Prophet according to you. " - I dont think most people receive revelation and has followers of 1/5 of the world population. Think befoe you speak!

"And we see that Muhammed brought the sword to many people and had sex with a little girl. He bore evil fruit." He didnt have sex with a little girl but they got married when she was 8. The consummation was later... Please note that at that time, it was common for girls to be married around 12, which was around that age when it was consummated.

Many prophets came with the sword. Even in the bible, we see Jesus mentioning he came with the sword.

The way to learn about a religion is not by sending false accusations. You discuss only to refute, not to learn... which explains why some things you say do not make sense, nor is it in Islam as you accuse! Plz learn with Muslims, not with people who are against it!!

[Believer]

Peace AbuKhaalid,

The way to learn about a religion is not by sending false accusations. You discuss only to refute, not to learn... which explains why some things you say do not make sense, nor is it in Islam as you accuse! Plz learn with Muslims, not with people who are against it!!

Sorry man, I get too fanatical sometimes.
I do want to learn, really.

What are you talking about??? PLz, if this is an accusation... forget it. Get your information from real Muslims if you are sincere to learn about Islam

What I said was not an accusation, I was just asking a question: Did Muhammed send his wives away because they were unfaithful?
Because Jesus Christ teaches that for one to divorce his spouse and remarry is to commit adultery unless the spouse was being unfaithful.

God sends prophets to correct people who have deviated.

That is true, and a prophet would never give teachings to cause deviation.

So hinduism was before christianity! Does that mean christianity built off the vedas??

Hinduism is not a revelation from God.
Now Christianity confirms what is correct in Judaism and purifies the teachings of God in the Gospels. The Gospels give the laws that God truly wants us to live by minus all the legalism. God hates legalism, it corrupts religion. See the Pharisees and the Jews werew corrupted by legalism, they forgot about what matters to God.
What matters most to God? Read the Gospels. Love for God and love for your neighbors matters to God. Loving even those who do not love you is a great service to God.

Islam does not confirm what is in Christianity.
Islam does not say it's necessary to love your enemies.
Islam say's it's okay to kill adulteresses and apostates when Christ taught us to love and forgive even the worst of sinners. Jesus even preached the Gospel to the prostitutes and tax-collectors.

"And we see that Muhammed brought the sword to many people and had sex with a little girl. He bore evil fruit." He didnt have sex with a little girl but they got married when she was 8. The consummation was later... Please note that at that time, it was common for girls to be married around 12, which was around that age when it was consummated.

Whether or not a marriage with a 9 year old girl is acceptable or not, that is not the point.
A prophet is supposed to rebel against such perverted customs.
It is just poor behaviour for any one, let alone a prophet, to marry a 9 year old girl. A girl sexually matures at 12 or 13 at least.

Many prophets came with the sword. Even in the bible, we see Jesus mentioning he came with the sword

Jesus said many people would be put to the sword because of Him.
Many people were killed in Rome because they were Christians, because they professed Christ as their Lord.
In Muslim countries many Christians have been martyred because they believed in Jesus Christ.

[Scorpion]

Just a quick correction .. The God of the Bible revealed himself before Hinduism started, i used to be a hindu.

The God of the Bible has always revealed himself since the Beginning, and the Bible is a trusted book because it is historical, it was written by eye-witness accounts, it is more reliable than a book such a Quran that appeared out of nowhere some 600 years after Jesus.

The Jews in the Old Testament knew who God was in the Old Testament, they knew who the true God was, God revealed himself from the very Beginning, in Genesis we see that it says "Adam walked with God"

God revealed himself VERY clearly. Religion ... is manmade, its ritualistic, full of tradition, and is man-s way of trying to get to God.

[gethsemane]

yeah i have to agree about organised religion,scorpion.

where three of you are gathered together in my name there is my church.

believer, you made a very strong point when you said a prophet should only be reverred if his prophecy becomes fact and that we will all be judged in that revealing. unfortunately you then went on to cast stones.

jesus was very clear in that he found good works even among those of other faiths and that we would be judged by our acts. his need for us to accept his word was not so we could wander round like automatons saying we belived, but through acting upon it and intergrating it into our lives, we could be reconciled with our innate divinty or god.

he found great fault with many people purporting to faithful jews (as jesus was a jew). he made it clear that with the new testament that they could not rely on their lineage and found favour with god anymore.

[Abdullah]

Lets look at the facts here, not Accusations and Assumptions,

[Believer]

Lets look at the facts here, not Accusations and Assumptions,

And the very obvious balatant fact is that Jesus Christ is the Prophet like Moses stated in Deut 18.
Anything else is conjecture and misunderstanding.

[Mujahideen]

God the Father spoke directly to both Moses and Jesus

jesus talked to himself?

Also you said they had Radiant faces, Muhammad (SAW) was fair skinned.

[Bushmaster]

Jesus didn't talk to himself. Minds of islamic tavhid think that "if God is Jesus, then Jesus is God", sorry Trinity can not be explained by islamic tavhid. You can not grill pork chops with a strawberry jam recipe!