Jesus's Deity...

[Scorpion]

I want to go through in this topic information concerning the Deity of Jesus Christ. A common Islamic claim is that Jesus is not God, and only a messenger/prophet. Well ... i will be doing a rebuttal on this in a few days, but before i do ... i would like people to show me in the Bible where Jesus himself denied his Deity as God incarnate in the form of human flesh.

Questions For Muslims: Where in the Bible did Jesus ever say that he is NOT God?

Please leave the answers to this question in this thread clearly as possible without side tracking or offering links to other websites. We are all here to learn. Please also note, scriptures regarding Jesus's humanity and manliness is irrelevent at this point in time, giving scripture references to Jesus being tired, hungry, sleeping, weeping and other Human like things will not prove anything as Christians already know that Jesus was fully human and fully man. He was God in the flesh ...

John 1:14 - "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..."

All the best in trying to give evidence that shows Jesus was not God. People often say Jesus never claimed to be God, well ... As far as i know, there is nowhere where Jesus ever claimed NOT to be God. Interesting dont you think?

I will prove Jesus's deity as simply as i can in a new topic in a few days.

God Bless. Scorpz.

[Scorpion]

BuMp ... Anybody going to take my challenge now that i've reversed the debate about Jesus's deity?

Anybody want to try to disprove this one?

[Murdock]

Jesus is both divine and both human. He is a unique entity that puts Himself above man and below God. That is one reason He is the ONLY WAY to the Father because God LIVES in Him. Only a man who has both the mind of man and God can be the BRIDGE to God. No other man who ever lived could know both the mind of man and the mind of God. Jesus proved this by His sinless nature. We humans have no access to God without the bridge because our sinful nature has nothing in common with God. But Jesus's sinless nature did have this connection to God. Jesus was God incarnate to show the world who God is. We cannot come before God unless we are rendered pure enough to do so. That has been done for us by Christ's death on the cross. Without His sacrifice, how can we be pure enough to connect with God? Who on this earth would consider himself pure enough unless that complete sacrifice had been made? Who can claim to KNOW God without the spirit of God in him? How can we possibly know God's spirit when we don't know God's spirit?

[Scorpion]

Thanks murdock for participating in this debate.

is a unique entity that puts Himself above man and below God

Would you care to tell us what kind of entity Jesus was if he wasn't Man or God, what was he? A Spirit? An illusion? Please tell us clearly what Jesus was.

That is one reason He is the ONLY WAY to the Father because God LIVES in Him

Good point that Jesus is the only way to the Father, but wrong conclusion i would say. Did you know reading a particular scripture in context can help immensely? Lets read John 14:6 in context shall we?

Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
true 1st John 5:20, Rev 3:7

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known MY Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Murdock: Tell me ... can anybody apart from God have the ability to forgive sins?

Im very happy to know that atleast you dont reject the Crucfixion. What disturbs me about religion is that Cults will always deny the Deity and Resurrection of Jesus. Its a common trait that identifies what a Cult is, and surprisingly, the same trait lies in Islam. It too denies the Deity of Jesus Christ.

In your opinion ... can anybody other than God offer forgiveness of sins? Please state your reasons and also tell me if there as a person other than Jesus who has walked upon the face of this earth and not sinned?

Thanks. Looking forward to your reply.

[Murdock]

I agree with every word Christ said. But He makes REPEATED references to His Father whom He worships, not Himself. God gave Jesus the power that He gave no one else on this earth: To forgive sins, to heal the sick, to be sinless, to die for humanity, to resurrect, etc. It is only the Son of God who can do this. Jesus demonstrated His place with God through His behavior. Jesus encompassed all 3. God, man, and the spirit. He always prayed to His father, not to Himself. He even said at one pint that some will be able to do greater things than these. I believe Jesus when He said, "There is one greater than I." He refers to the supreme authority of His afther incessantly.

[reject not faith]

Greeting my friends,

Is Jesus God? Why do not Muslims worship Jesus(may peace be upon him)?
Because Muslims will not worship Jesus (may peace be upon him) as God or Son of God they have been the ultimate attack of Christians. Let me explain. Islam accetps the the authenticity of Jesus(may peace be upon him) miracles, healing the blind and crippled, raising the dead, walking on water etc, but Jesus (may peace be upon him) did so by the leave of God, by the permission and power of God. However other prophets also acted this way. In fact Elisha did the same supernatural events also by the power, yet he was not worhsiped or nor was a religion founded in his name.
The teachings concerning Jesus (may peace be upon him) successor and his messge have be lost or deliberately concealed. Both Christians and Muslims believe taht Jesus is not dead and will return again, however for admittedly differnt purposes. Islam accepts everything spoken by Jesus, but no the human interpretations written later. Both religions believe in God; Islam accepts only One God. Both believe in heaven and hell, Day of Judgement. Islam believes in the virgin birth of Jesus (may peace be upon him) but Islam does not pray to Jesus(may peace be upon him) Mary or other humans. The history of Jesus (may peace be upon him) as god goes back to the history of the Church, as they selectively chose what they liked fromthe existening texts and shunned what was inconvenient or that which it felt was irrelevant. I believe the number was 400 texts of religious gospels and only those of Matthew Mark Luke and JOhn were selected, becaause they fell into the desire of the Church. The accounts describes mostly biographical material, and not religious doctrine about the holy life, as they should have done. Jesus'(may peace be upon him) advice was not followed. The New Testament was not recorded during Jesus' lifetime but subsequently by later students. We know Jesus brough a Bible as previous Messengers revealed Divine Laws. But where is that Gospel? Both Muslims and Christians do not have any such manuscript. Perhaps buried, concealed, or it was destroyed and broken in war or unsettled times. It was at least a hundred years after the birth of Jesus before the Gospels were written down.

Peace upon you my friends

[Believer]

We do have the ancient manuscripts of the Gospel.
There is a pre-Markan passion narrative also.
Nothing in the Gospels today was fabricated because all can be traced back in ancient scriptures.
Scripture simply does not support a purely human Jesus.
Jesus is the Son of Man, the Messiah, the King, the Lord!

[Murdock]

The other prophets, including Elijah, did not utter the truth in every word they said. They were fallible human beings who were given much less power than Jesus. The term "Son of God" came from Jesus Himself! If other men gave Him that term, why did other men not give the other prophets in the bible the same term?The reason is that Jesus's whole being was beyond sin, unlike the other prophets. He was conceived by God, unlike the other prophets. He sent us the Holy Spirit (which I have received), unlike the other prophets. His mirales were beyond any other miracles yet performed on earth. And most importantly, He convicted the world of sin which no other prophet ever did. What in the world did Jesus do to show that He was NOT the Son of God? Anything?

[Alpha]

I believe the number was 400 texts of religious gospels and only those of Matthew Mark Luke and JOhn were selected, becaause they fell into the desire of the Church. The accounts describes mostly biographical material, and not religious doctrine about the holy life, as they should have done. Jesus'(may peace be upon him) advice was not followed. The New Testament was not recorded during Jesus' lifetime but subsequently by later students. We know Jesus brough a Bible as previous Messengers revealed Divine Laws. But where is that Gospel? Both Muslims and Christians do not have any such manuscript. Perhaps buried, concealed, or it was destroyed and broken in war or unsettled times. It was at least a hundred years after the birth of Jesus before the Gospels were written down.

There is so much evidence that the gospel we have now is the same as the gospel before Muhammed's time. Yet, Muhammed told Christians during his time to obey the gospel and the Torah (the same scriptures we have today). If the scriptures are corrupt as you imply, then Muhammed is not a prophet seeing that he told us to search and obey corrupted scriptures. You can't have it both ways my friend.

[littleshepard]

I believe the number was 400 texts of religious gospels and only those of Matthew Mark Luke and JOhn were selected, becaause they fell into the desire of the Church. The accounts describes mostly biographical material, and not religious doctrine about the holy life, as they should have done. Jesus'(may peace be upon him) advice was not followed. The New Testament was not recorded during Jesus' lifetime but subsequently by later students. We know Jesus brough a Bible as previous Messengers revealed Divine Laws. But where is that Gospel? Both Muslims and Christians do not have any such manuscript. Perhaps buried, concealed, or it was destroyed and broken in war or unsettled times. It was at least a hundred years after the birth of Jesus before the Gospels were written down.

There is so much evidence that the gospel we have now is the same as the gospel before Muhammed's time. Yet, Muhammed told Christians during his time to obey the gospel and the Torah (the same scriptures we have today). If the scriptures are corrupt as you imply, then Muhammed is not a prophet seeing that he told us to search and obey corrupted scriptures. You can't have it both ways my friend.

Actually there is a so called scripture out that the muslims believe gave "proof" that Jesus is only a 'mere' prophet and that would be the gospel of barnabas. However, if they really looked into that gospel [it claimes that Jesus says that He's not the Son of God nor God ect ], they would know the truth. It also claims that Jesus spoke about what "really happened" when Adam and Eve fell from grace, ect, ect, ect. It also states that Jesus spoke about Mohammed coming into the world ect, ect This "gospel" has so many contradictions that it's not funny. This is one of the main things they use as 'proof' that Jesus is not part of the Triune God and why the Bible is "corrupted"

[Scorpion]

Thats right littleshephard, the Gospel of Barnabas in a forgery, its a false testimony. I have a small bookleft written by an Ex-muslim in my room about explains the origins and forgery of this so called 'Gospel'.

[Believer]

There is so much evidence that the gospel we have now is the same as the gospel before Muhammed's time. Yet, Muhammed told Christians during his time to obey the gospel and the Torah (the same scriptures we have today). If the scriptures are corrupt as you imply, then Muhammed is not a prophet seeing that he told us to search and obey corrupted scriptures. You can't have it both ways my friend.

Yeah Alpha, but why don't Muslims listen to the real evidence?
They are so willing to follow the Quran that they deny reality, there's also loads of early historical evidence of Christ's crucifixion, and yet they take the Quran's word that it never happened.
I believe it's because they just don't want to believe that Jesus is Lord.

Muslims say the Quran "confirms" the scriptures, but that is obviously wrong to us.
Jesus Christ fulfilled the scriptures!

Islam's claim that the Torah and Gospel we have today are corrupted is just wrong. God promised us that He would protect His Word.

Isaiah 55:10-11
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

..and anything that says otherwise is Satanic in origin.
The Torah completed its purpose and it was fruitful, and it was fulfilled and superceded by the Gospel of Christ, which was a major success, now Christianity is the #1 world religion!

Maybe this is all meaningless to Muslims, but think about it.
Would you waste your life following a strict set of humanistic laws if you even had a slight doubt that your religion was Satanic in origin?

[littleshepard]

Yes, the gospel of banabas clearly contradicts all the other gospels out there, including the other "lost books" of the bible. It also contradicts the epislte of Barnabas. You would think there were two Barnabas' out there. I think they presumed the author of that "gospel" to be a Moor due to the language ect.

I don't mean to change the subject or anything but it's sort of like this... I once knew someone who was a Jehova's witness and I also knew a few people who were mormons.....the thing about them is that they had everything in their book written down. If you had a question about anything, they would turn to their books to show you [like muslims]. They would use "their scriptures" to prove your scriptures wrong [with some going as far as interpreting the scriptures-ours- incorrectly to prove their own point.

I also dealt with a neo-nazi [I didn't know it at the time] who used the scriptures to show me how evil black people [along with jews] are and why God cursed them ect, ect. I was scared to death and I was at a stage where my faith was a little shaken [it's too strong to be broken now ].

The point is, these people grew up [or others who are looking for that pysical proof, something that the devil can surely use against you] in the religion and it's deep rooted into them. It's scary to think that something that they grew up on, their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, ect believe in could be wrong [ego too]. They are looking at least ONE thing to show that we are wrong and they are right no matter how many times we can show to them that their scriptures are indeed false, misinterpreted or an entirely new doctrine to begin with which contradicts all their "logical reasoning" It would only make sense for their god to say such things because it's withing "logical reason" that they [the common person] can understand. That's why people can relate to Rosie O'donnel, Margaret Cho, Rosanne Barr, Ohprah Winfrey.

I'm not saying that they are bad people, but if you look at their backgrounds, they [like the majority of us] are not perfect. We can relate to them [not all], we would take what they say to us more readily than what Jesus was trying to tell us in parables It's easier for us to understand them since we are probably like them, went through what they went through, ect, ect. Although God humbled Himself, it's hard for those who see Him as A GOD and believe that GOD is separate from man [whom we must worship only, not break bread with or drink] to understand what He wants from us. So? It confuses them and makes them go to other religions that seem to "make sense" or are interpreted with some type of proof and have doctrines "inspired by god" on how to live a "perfect life"

I'm not sure if I'm making sense....I hope I didn't just blaspheme myself... Yahweh is a wonderful God and He wants the best for all of His children, this I beleive. I also believe that the devil wants the worst for us and will stop at nothing to try and take us away from our only true God
I better stop now because I think I'm not making sense anymore...sorry..

[Believer]

No, you make sense little brother.
You're saying these mislead people use "circular reasoning", right?
Yeah, but how can you convince these people that what they believe is wrong?

[littleshepard]

No, you make sense little brother.
You're saying these mislead people use "circular reasoning", right?
Yeah, but how can you convince these people that what they believe is wrong?

That's my current dilema.... All I can really do now is just pray for them...As for me..well I had my own misgivings back in time...see, I was raised Catholic until my dad died...then the mormons came after us, but at the time we didn't know that they were mormons..... My mom reckoned that they worship God just like we do and every church is different [but we do worship one god] and we need a community... I was skeptical, but I didn't have any christian friends and I wanted to be around them now [before I used to have non-christian friends, mainly jewish, gothic, wiccas that I didn't know about since they never really spoke about it to me]....

Anyway, I was never baptized so I read the part where we had to be immersed into water...[sorry I'm going off-topic..] and this church did that [literally]. I was pleased with that but soon after we were baptized into the church and the two brothers that brought us in had to go elsewhere on a different mission. The people told us not to get close with the little missioners and not treat them so kind and that bothered me alot [we would often welcome them for dinner at least once a week]....also they made some new law that they were not allowed to come into a house of a woman that was alone [when I was at school they used to come visit my mother]; they would need an older male escort. The men in the congregation were reluctant to visit us [due to their own time or whatever]. Also at the church, I though they were supposed to be nice to their new converts, but that just wasn't the case They only wanted your money.

I found it odd that they never spoke about the bible but focused more on their doctrines and a different member would come up to tell about their family and problems and not pray for anyone else, ect. It bothered me alot and I knew that I made a huge mistake...I trust and love my mother and loneliness did add to part of us going there, but I was not going to continue down that path. I stopped going to the church and after a while they excumunicated us. It wasn't that bad. They would call and things like that but since I didn't really tithe to them, they didn't miss us much.

We later found a presbyterian church [through God's grace] and we made our way back to our journey in God's true doctrine.

I never did any research into the mormon church... I did question them about alot of things and at the time they had the right questions because I myself didn't know my own scriptures properly. I just 'trusted' what they were telling me and their "circular" answers satisfied me at the time... My cousin went to islam at the time I was on my journey to Christ. He used my mistake of going into mormonism as an excuse for him going to islam. He showed me that it was recorded, he showed me the errors in the bible ect, ect and so forth. He also showed me all the passages that showed that Chist was "just" a mere man who was a prophet and no more.

Of course I was devastated...everything my parents taught to me when I was younger, all the programs I would watch during the resurrection, ect..christmas... [based on pagan religions]. It all came crashing down on me...

This was around the time I was getting pressure from other muslims from my job [I was also insecure about myself]. It was driving me insane for a bit and I was in an abyss of torment.

The old church I was in didn't help me neither [presbyterian]. The pastor was too young and had other problems within the church that took priority over my problems [like which restaurant they would go to after service ]... I left that church and found a reform church that believes in the Holy Catholic church. They have a new pastor there but I think he seems irritated when I ask him questions about islam and tell him about my past [ex-mormon]. I sometimes feel ashamed to tell anyone about it [I did in the past] because they seem to look down on me... It really hurts my feelings...but it has to be said and I have past that hurdle now.

So the question still remains as to how to help those people who are in these other religions that are taken away through false prophets? The only answer I know of is to pray for them and have them see what God's TRUE LOVE is all about in my own actions of every day life.

There's a strong christian lady at my job that was hired recently and I started talking to her. I think she believes that I'm a non-believer because I seem to question alot of things in christianity. I told her my main purpose is to try and minister the word properly to others who are not of the faith [without making a fool of myself ] and want to try to get into a debate with me. She told me that sometimes these people are just happy in their existence and their faith and there is nothing we can do about it. She told me that one time she was ministering to a muslim man and God showed her that this person was happy with who he was and what he believed in and she was to leave him alone. I thought that was powerful...sad but powerful.

I'm still going to pray for my cousin and whomever he's going to try to get into the religion [he's smart and has a way with words...] since I found out that if a muslim gets someone into their religion, allah will reward him/her two-fold in heaven.

Anyway...sorry for going off-topic like that I just wanted to share my testimony with you.

[Believer]

Peace littleshepard,

You have had quite an experience, but sorry for the tragedy in your life.
Mormons, I know one in my school.
He is somewhat reluctant to discuss his religious beliefs.
It's ashame such a smart bright kid like him is following such a blatantly false religion.

Hey, maybe you could ask your Islamic cousin to join this forum, is he too busy?
All of us here would love to help show your cousin see the Truth.

I was always a Catholic, but I've moved around some as a kid. I was born in Palm Beach, Florida. I lived in Georgia, now I live in Alabama.
I'm still in highschool, I'm a Senior. My adventure has yet to begin.
That's me, nothing too spectacular.
I have always had a zeal for the Christian faith, and I look forward to posting with you, brother.

May God bless you and keep you always!

[littleshepard]

Thank you My cousin wants to have nothing to do with our family of infidels He's gone to Saudi Arabia to find a wife and I don't think I'll be hearing from him again any time soon. He's mad that I was a crazy mormon one time and didn't find the "truth" in the "perfect" religion of islam. I'll still pray him.

[1+1+1=1?]

Does anyone know how many times Jesus refers to HIMSELF as:

1)God
2)Son of God
3)Son of Man

And how many times is he referred to by the Gospel writers as :

1)God
2)Son of God
3)Son of Man

Just wondering if anyone has added it all up.I think by far the most common reference is Son of Man.Wouldn't it have been less confusing if he just called himself God ALL the time to make things more clear for all those who would doubt his diety in the future.If the Bible simply had the 3 word quote "I am God",then this argument would be over.It's such an important aspect of Christianity,I would think over and over again Jesus would have said "I am God" from his own mouth.

[Scorpion]

ThirdAndLong,

If you walked out onto the streets of Jerusalem and said to people "I am God" ... Do you think anybody would beleive you?

Or do you think that the Jews would beleive that you are claiming to be the Messiah or are the Messiah by performing miracles that show you have power over the physical and spiritual world and rather if you used Jewish terminology and claimed to be God in a non-arrogant way?

Question: If you said that you are God openly with the words "I am God" ... Is it arrogant?
Answer Options: Yes or No.

Awaiting your reply.

[1+1+1=1?]

Question: If you said that you are God openly with the words "I am God" ... Is it arrogant?
Answer Options: Yes or No.

[/

If I am a doctor and say "I am a doctor",I am not arrogant,if my intentions are to inform you who I am.I would not tell them I was anything less because I was afraid they would'nt beleive me.
If I am God and say "I am God " I am not arrogant.God can say whatever he wants.He is not afraid of the Jews,and if all the miracles he performed would not convince them,then it dosen't matter what he said they still would not believe.Statements like "The father is greater than I" and stating he performed miracles with the help of "the father" just confuse people.If he is God there is no need for modesty,just say" I am your God and here to Die for your sins" in Plain Aramaic .

Why all the need for indirect interpretation of Bible Quotes, he surely would have known anything short of direct statements of his deity would be questioned in the future,as is happening now even within the Christian Church.

If you walked out onto the streets of Jerusalem and said to people "I am God" ... Do you think anybody would beleive you?

If I walked out onto the streets of New York now ,with its people who are much more cynical than the Jews of Jerusalem,and raised the dead and cured the sick in front of mass crowds and claimed I was God,do you think I would attract a following?Interesting question.

[Alpha]

Question: If you said that you are God openly with the words "I am God" ... Is it arrogant?
Answer Options: Yes or No.

If I am a doctor and say "I am a doctor",I am not arrogant,if my intentions are to inform you who I am.
If I am God and say "I am God " I am not arragant.God can say whatever he wants.He is not afraid of the Jews,and if all the miracles he performed would not convince them,then it dosen't matter what he said they still would not believe.Statements like "The father is greater than I" and stating he performed miracles with the help of "the father" just confuse people.If he is God there is no need for modesty,just say" I am your God and here to Die for your sins" in Plain Aramaic .

Why all the need for indirect interpretation of Bible Quotes, he surely would have known anything short of direct statements of his deity would be questioned in the future,as is happening now even within the Christian Church.

It's just who Jesus is. He's the example of a perfect human being. If you were to see the Passion and the scene where Christ was being mocked and beaten, it's the human flesh that would say "kill all these people, get revenge Jesus!" But Christ endured. Please do not use sinful human logic and arrogance to comprehend something which is pure and sinless. Christ does not need to say He is God.

If someone was to ask Michael Jordon if he is the best basketball player who ever lived, most likely you will get a humbled response like "Well, I think there are many great basketball players" or "Every player has their own style" or "only people can be the judge of those things." It would certainly grieve the spirit if he said, "Ofcourse I am. Barkely, Ewing and all those infidels, they can't touch me." So if sinful man can give humbled responses to their glory, so can sinless Christ.

Here is what Christ said>If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. (John 5:31-32).

John 8:18>I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Jesus is clearly saying if He is the only one who bears witness to Himself (i.e. say He is God), then who cares. But let us see what the Father said about His Son>But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. [Hebrews 1:8].

Right there we see that the Father calls Christ "God". This is even a greater testimony than if Christ Himself calls Himself God. The Father calls the Son "God" despite the fact in that same chapter, He claims to be the God of the Son. This is the relationship in the Godhead.

Also, Phillippians 2:5-8>Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

It's so obvious that Christ is God in the flesh. Matthew 28:18>And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. "

Read Daniel 7 and the prophecy about Christ ruling in an everlasting kingdom, and read what happened to Daniel after he recieved these visions. He was confused. You think Daniel completely understood? Despite the fact he did not completely understand, did it mean it was not true?

Daniel 7:13-15>I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

[1+1+1=1?]

Alpha-Thanks for taking the time to reply.I will read the quotes you stated in their context to help me understand further what you are thinking,they are very helpful in my research.

The question of does Jesus need to be humble about statements of his deity is something to think about also.We can only speculate why he didn't make the "I am God" statement.The gospel writers certainly would have no reason to withhold such direct statements.But I see what you are trying to say.

[Omega]

The debate of the deity of Jesus has been going on for centuries. Muslims and Christians will always have their differences in opinion.

It's been known that since The Devil is trying to exalt himself above his God, He and his demonics hosts have conjured up every single lie to disprove the deity of Jesus. And even if one were to attempt to prove the deity of Jesus to a non-believer, it would go in circles.

That is one of the Demonic Tricks of the Trade. Where as to every verse in the Bible that hints to the deity of Christ, is taken by demons and they have ready with them false answers that will only lead a believer in a neverending circles, in an attempt to hinder the precious message of the Gospel which is the most Important message in the Bible.

The end of the age will come when the Gospel of the Kingdom is taught to all nations of the World, even in the remotest parts of the World with very small population.

And as Satan sees that His defeat is near, his deception becomes more deceiving. And with that he has in his demonic arsenal of lies to refute the teachings of the Bible and its valuable message of Christ being Crucified and dying and rising from the dead Triumphantly, and ascending to the right hand of God the Father.

If you were to get all the Biblical scholars and all the Quranic scholars together in a debate for the Truth and of the deity of Christ, I can assure you that there will be no mutual agreement on both sides, because of the deceiving tricks that the Demons use that will have both sides going in an endless debate.

As for myself, i do not believe that teaching the deity of Christ is as important than the precious message of Salvation{nevertheless it is important in different aspects},and i truly believe in my heart of hearts that in order for one to truly understand the deity of Christ, one must first receive Him into their hearts, unless the demons find a loophole.

God Bless!

[Believer]

Read Daniel 7 and the prophecy about Christ ruling in an everlasting kingdom, and read what happened to Daniel after he recieved these visions. He was confused. You think Daniel completely understood? Despite the fact he did not completely understand, did it mean it was not true?

Daniel 7:13-15>I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."


The vision of Daniel and David is confirmed by the Gospels that Jesus Christ is the Son of Man and the Lord, and He is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Matthew 26:64
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."


I believe this is unmistakable evidence that Jesus Christ is the Lord and the Son of Man who is the Son of God.

[Omega]

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

That is an excellent verse to prove the deity of Christ my brother.

Even Yahweh Himself said that there is only ONE LORD: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deuteronomy 6:4

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. Isaiah 43:11,15

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:16

Now, how can there be a Lord higher than Jesus if He is called Lord of Lords?

I rest my case!

And that is why Jesus said"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

God Bless!

[littleshepard]

Question: If you said that you are God openly with the words "I am God" ... Is it arrogant?
Answer Options: Yes or No.

[/

If I am a doctor and say "I am a doctor",I am not arrogant,if my intentions are to inform you who I am.I would not tell them I was anything less because I was afraid they would'nt beleive me.

Hi

Actually I have a funny story to this. There was this lady that would come into the store that I worked in when I was in high school. They would refer to her as "Dr." such and such. I gave her the utmost respect because I thought she was a medical doctor. When she would pay for her items in check it had DR. such and such so no one really doubted that she was a medical doctor.

Low and behold, about a few years later when I started college, she went away to Ireland and we asked her about her travels. She stated that she got herself into trouble by telling people she was "dr." such and such when she's only got her doctorate in history. LOL

If you were to tell people you were god, even if you are, they wouldn't believe and they would call you crazy.

Now when you say you're a doctor, people usually ask "an MD?" There are so many doctors [hey, there are so many gods out there as well if you wanna count the fake ones. ].

Peace.

[adampastor]

Greetings Omega

Psalms 110:1 is the most quoted OT verse in the NT.
It literally defines 'who Jesus is'; and what the early church meant when they called Jesus 'Lord'

However, when you pick up a KJV Bible you would see in the OT that the word 'lord' can appear in 3 different cases i.e.

1. LORD
2. Lord
3. lord

These differences in cases generally correspond to 3 (actually 4) different Hebrew words i.e.

1. LORD - All CAPS = YHWH = YAHWEH - the name of the ONE GOD of the Bible. This name solely refers to GOD Almighty
2. Lord - Capital L = Adonai - this is the title solely used by GOD which denotes Him as the Supreme Lord
3. lord - all lowercase = adon - this is the general Hebrew word which means 'lord' or 'master' - used of GOD, angels and men.

There are some minor varations to the above however generally ...

• In the 6700 places where GOD's name, the tetragrammaton, appears in the OT; you will see LORD - all CAPS (or especially in Ezekiel, GOD in all caps)
• Adonai is always shown as Lord (occurs 449 times)
• In the 25 cases where adon is used to refer to GOD, Lord is used i.e. the L is capitalized
• All the other cases, generally 'lord' is used.

There is however, a 4th Hebrew word - it is a derivative of 'adon'
This word is adoni - generally appears in our Bibles as my lord
Please note: This word is NEVER used in ref. to Almighty GOD - NEVER!
It is solely used to refer to human lords, and occasionally angels.
In all of its 195 occurrences, this Hebrew word is used to differentiate human (and angelic) lords from the LORD GOD! When the LORD GOD is being referred to as 'My Lord', solely Adonai is used.

Therefore Omega, in the OT scriptures that you quoted, 2 different Hebrew words are being used ...

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.


Even Yahweh Himself said that there is only ONE LORD: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deuteronomy 6:4

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. Isaiah 43:11,15

Correspond to ...

(Deu 6:4) Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH our God is one YAHWEH: (or YAHWEH is one)
(Isa 43:11) I, even I, am YAHWEH; and beside me there is no saviour.
(Isa 43:15) I am YAHWEH, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
(Zec 14:9) And YAHWEH shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one YAHWEH, and his name one.

As you can see in each of the above cases, the title 'Lord' is not being used - NO! It is GOD's name that is being used NOT His title!

Now Psalms 110:1 ...
Sadly, the KJV translators were inconsistent with their typefacing - they capitalized the second word 'lord' giving the reader the initial impression that the verse is saying YAHWEH said unto [my] Adonai
However, the truth of the matter is that the second word is NOT Adonai - it is in fact, adoni
A few bibles (such as RV, RSV, NRSV) have corrected this, since it should read The LORD said unto my lord (no capital 'L') i.e.
YAHWEH said unto adoni
The implications are:

• adoni is never used in ref. to Almighty GOD - it is solely used to denote humans and angels
• We know that the Messiah is NOT an angel
• Hence, from the OT times, just by reading the Hebrew Scriptures esp. Psalms 110; it can be seen that the Messiah was to a man, not GOD at all!
• GOD's word which cannot be broken, shows that, by the Hebrew word used to declare him 'lord' i.e. adoni; the Messiah was expected to be a human being, a human lord! NOT GOD!
• YAHWEH, the ONE GOD, was to one day, speak unto the human Messiah, David's descendant, David's lord (adoni) - and say sit at My Right Hand
• When the early church proclaimed that Jesus was Lord; they were not calling him either YAHWEH or Adonai!
  They recognized that he was the human lord who was foreordained by GOD to sit at His Right Hand!
• The very Hebrew word that they used, adoni; denoted that the Messiah could not possibly be Almighty GOD.
  Seeing that Almighty GOD is not a man [Num 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29, Job 9:32, Hosea 11:9] much less 'son of man'

Now, how can there be a Lord higher than Jesus if He is called Lord of Lords?

In fulfillment of Psalms 110:1, Almighty GOD highly exalted Jesus and made him both Lord & Christ, Lord of all!! [Acts 2:36, 10:36]
GOD has placed all things under his feet! However ...
(1 Cor 15:27-28 ) For he [GOD] hath put all things under his [the man Christ Jesus'] feet. But when he [GOD] saith all things are put under him [the man Christ Jesus], it is manifest [IT IS OBVIOUS, IT IS CLEAR] that he [GOD] is excepted [NOT INCLUDED, ALMIGHTY GOD IS EXEMPT, EXCLUDED] which did put all things under him [the man Christ Jesus]. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him [the man Christ Jesus], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [GOD] that put all things under him [the Son], that God may be all in all.

That is ... no matter how highly GOD has exalted Jesus His Son, the Lord Messiah; by definition GOD will always be greater than him, because GOD is ... GOD!! GOD will always be Jesus' GOD [John 20:17, Rev 3:12, etc]
GOD will always be Jesus' Lord! GOD will always be the Supreme Lord - the LORD GOD - Adonai YAHWEH

Therefore, in answer to your question, how can there be a Lord higher than Jesus if He is called Lord of Lords?
The answer is ...
GOD is GOD and cannot be subject nor equal to anyone else, seeing that there is solely ONE GOD, the Father, namely YAHWEH. Therefore it is obvious, it goes without saying that GOD will always be higher than Jesus irrespective of how high He exalts him; and therefore, GOD will always be Lord over the Lord Jesus!

The title 'Lord of all' does does NOT include GOD. GOD has made Jesus, Lord of all, however GOD is NOT subject to anyone, including Jesus. It is clearly the other way round [1 Cor 15:27-28, John 10:29, 14:28]




(1 Cor 8:4-6) As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Jesus the Messiah, our Rabbi, our Lord & Master did not teach a new theology. He stood by the Sh'ma [Deut 6:4 - see Mark 12:28-34]. There is still solely ONE GOD - NOTHING HAS CHANGED This ONE GOD is the Father, who is the GOD & FATHER of our Lord (adoni) Jesus the Messiah
[2 Cor 11:31, Eph 1:3, 17; Col 1:3, 1 Pet 1:3, Rom 15:6, 2 Cor 1:3, Eph 3:14]
This ONE GOD via the prophets and OT scriptures promised that He would make solely ONE MAN of David's lineage to be 'the lord' (adoni) who would sit at His Right Hand until the day that He makes his enemies his footstool; that descendant of David, that 'lord' is Jesus of Nazareth. He is the adoni spoken of in Psalms 110:1. Hence this verse was used by both Jesus and his apostles to define 'who Jesus is' (quoted 23 times in the NT).
He is therefore the 'One Lord' spoken of in 1 Cor 8:6, Eph 4:5.

There is therefore ONE GOD, the Father, namely YAHWEH
and there is ONE Lord, the Lord Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of David, the Son of the Father.


Hope the above post helps ...

[Believer]

Peace adampastor,

Are you a Jehovah's Witness? You don't recognize Jesus as the Lord, one with the Father??

adoni is never used in ref. to Almighty GOD - it is solely used to denote humans and angels

We know that the Messiah is NOT an angel

Hence, from the OT times, just by reading the Hebrew Scriptures esp. Psalms 110; it can be seen that the Messiah was to a man, not GOD at all!

GOD's word which cannot be broken, shows that, by the Hebrew word used to declare him 'lord' i.e. adoni; the Messiah was expected to be a human being, a human lord! NOT GOD!

YAHWEH, the ONE GOD, was to one day, speak unto the human Messiah, David's descendant, David's lord (adoni) - and say sit at My Right Hand

When the early church proclaimed that Jesus was Lord; they were not calling him either YAHWEH or Adonai!
They recognized that he was the human lord who was foreordained by GOD to sit at His Right Hand!

The very Hebrew word that they used, adoni; denoted that the Messiah could not possibly be Almighty GOD.
Seeing that Almighty GOD is not a man [Num 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29, Job 9:32, Hosea 11:9] much less 'son of man'

The great King David called Christ "Lord" in heaven.
Jesus is a heavenly king and He is seated at the right hand of the Father Almighty. No mortal human or even an angel can be seated at the right hand of God Himself and recieve eternal dominion overall people and nations who worship and serve him, No way the Messiah is just a human, just not possible, that is not supported in scriptures.

The Jews did believe the Messiah was the Son of God who was the Lord.
Even the Pharisees asked Jesus if He was "the Christ, the Son of God"
Only the Lord is the savior and redeemer of Israel.
You just put yout own twist on this whole thing, a twisted one too.
Jesus is not another human, He is a heavenly King (or Lord).
God says He is the King. Christ is now seated at God's right hand, how can you say He is a man? Not even the most powerful Cheribum can sit at God's right hand!

[adampastor]

Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

NO WAY!

You don't recognize Jesus as the Lord, one with the Father??

What are you talking about? How many times, did I say Jesus is 'Lord' in my post! You did read my post, didn't you??

The great King David called Christ "Lord" in heaven.
Jesus is a heavenly king and He is seated at the right hand of the Father Almighty. No mortal human or even an angel can be seated at the right hand of God Himself and receive eternal dominion over all people and nations who worship and serve him, No way the Messiah is just a human, just not possible, that is not supported in scriptures.

King David by the spirit indeed prophesied that the Messiah would be 'lord' and that this 'lord' will be seated at the right hand of GOD. However, David was without a doubt, that this 'lord' would be his descendent. This 'lord' will be his 'son'. [2 Sam 7:12-14; 1 Chr 17:11-13] This 'lord' would be of his lineage. [Psa 132:11, Jere 23:5, 33:15, Acts 2:30, John 7:42, Rom 1:3, 2 Tim 2:8]

Hence, he and every Scripture-believing Jew was expecting a Davidide Israelite - a human being - a man of the lineage of David who would be their king and Messiah.
Jesus of Nazareth is that MAN

There is no mortal human at the right hand of GOD!
Hadn't you heard!! The man Christ Jesus who was dead and buried ... GOD Almighty has raised him from the dead and given him immortality!
There is therefore, an immortal human at the right hand of GOD!!!
Jesus the Messiah dieth no more, he liveth by the power of GOD [Rom 6:9-10; 2 Cor 13:4]. In the Resurrection, the saints like Jesus, will receive immortality ... they, like Jesus, will be immortal humans

Now the Scriptures exhorts us to believe the record that GOD gave of His Son. The fact is that GOD has indeed raised a human from the dead, given this human immortality, highly exalted this human, and placed this human at His Right Hand. This human is Jesus the Messiah, of Nazareth, the Son of the Living GOD.
The Greek word for hu(man) is anthropos. The apostles had no problem proclaiming that Jesus is a (hu)man, post-resurrection e.g.
(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man [anthropos] Christ Jesus;

Now it is obvious that Jesus is NOT an angelic being. And it is obvious that there is solely ONE GOD. And by the very word of GOD which cannot be broken, adoni is the actual Hebrew word solely used to refer to either human lords or angelic lords; it is NEVER used in ref. to DEITY!! Therefore in all of its 195 occurrences, we have 195 clues based on Psalms 110:1 and the word adoni, that the Messiah is NOT GOD, the Messiah is NOT deity.

Granted this might be a hard pill to swallow. But don't discount it. Investigate this assertion.

So the Scriptures very much support the fact that this person who is to receive dominion over all people and nations who worship and serve him would be a human. For starters, this person would be Son of man. That is was 'Son of man' means!
MAN, HUMAN!
And guess what!
(Num 23:19) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Jesus of Nazareth called himself, Son of man, nearly 80 times.
'Son of Man' means human; it means humanity NEVER DEITY!!

Any OT or 1st-century Jew reading Dan 7:13-14 would understand that this is speaking of an highly exalted human being - an highly exalted MAN; who in the presence of GOD, is to receive a kingdom, power & dominion, from GOD ALMIGHTY - THE ANCIENT OF DAYS

Jesus signed his death warrant by declaring that he is THAT MAN! -
he is that 'SON OF MAN'
(Dan 7:13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
(Mark 14:61-64) But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? 64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

The very term 'son of man' let us know that the Messiah was to a man, a human being, and NOT GOD! [See also 1 Sam 15:29, Job 9.32, Hosea 11:9]

The Jews did believe the Messiah was the Son of God who was the Lord.

YEP! They did! Totally agree!

Even the Pharisees asked Jesus if He was "the Christ, the Son of God"
Only the Lord is the savior and redeemer of Israel.

Yep! Totally agree! The scriptures declare ...
(Acts 13:22-23) And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
(Acts 5:31) Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Just as in time past, GOD raised up (human) 'saviours' (The KJV also uses the words 'deliverer(s)'. The same Hebrew word that is translated 'saviour' is being used. See Judg 3:9, 15; 2 Kings 13:5; Neh 9:27. Compare Isa 19:20, Obad 21) to save Israel in times of trouble; in these last days, in the fulness of time, GOD has raised up an even greater human saviour, Jesus the Messiah, to be the Saviour not just of Israel, but of the world!! Even the Samaritans understood this ...

• (John 4:24-26) God is a Spirit: [HENCE GOD IS NOT (HU)MAN] and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
• (John 4:29) Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
• Is not this 'man' the Christ??
• (John 4:41-42) And many more believed because of his own word; 42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Common folk could understand that this (hu)man was the one ordained to be the Saviour of the world.

Jesus is not another human, ...

Not sure what you mean by 'another human'
Jesus, of course, being the Son of GOD, is no ordinary human. His genesis/beginning declares that. He was conceived/begotten without the aid of a human father. He was conceived/begotten by the power of GOD.
The same GOD that made the First MAN/Adam of the dust of the ground ... made Jesus the Last Adam of the seed of a woman!
So, Jesus is most definitely human, just like us, yet without sin He was as Adam was before Adam sinned.
Where Adam failed, Jesus triumphed.
When Jesus came into being, Luke had no problem tracing his genealogy right back to Adam! Why? Because Jesus is human. He is of the human race. He is the Son of MAN hence a 'son/descendant of Adam'
The Scriptures declare him to be a (hu)man, again and again.

He is a heavenly King (or Lord).
God says He is the King. Christ is now seated at God's right hand ...

Jesus is a heavenly 'Lord' because currently he is in heaven, at the right hand of GOD. However, he will return one day and sit upon his glorious throne - the promised throne of David and inaugurate the Kingdom of GOD and the Restoration of all things, just as the prophets had spoken about.

• (Psa 110:1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
• UNTIL ... not forever. Jesus will NOT forever be at GOD's right hand. He will NOT forever be in heaven. He will return to fulfil all that the Scriptures speak of
• (Acts 3:21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
• (Luke 1:32-33) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and YAHWEH God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
• YET TO BE FULFILLED. See also Jere 23:5, 33:14-15, Isa 9:7, 32:1-2, Ezek 21:27, Dan 2:44, etc.
• (Mat 25:31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: ... 34 Then shall the King say ...
• (Mat 19:28 ) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
• Jesus is in heaven now, but he shall return to be an earthly King and Lord over GOD's Kingdom ... just as the Scriptures has promised.
• (Rev 11:15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
• NOTE the distinction: Almighty GOD, our LORD, our ADON; and his Anointed One, the Messiah, namely Jesus! (Cp. Psalms 2:2, Acts 4:26. YAHWEH and His anointed)
  ONE Lord GOD, and ONE human Lord, Jesus the Messiah
• (Rev 5:9-10) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

how can you say He is a man?

How can I say? Because that is exactly what GOD's word says. Will you fight scripture? Christ is not ashamed to call me 'brother' [Heb 2:11]; why should I be ashamed to call him the man Christ Jesus ...
(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


The tale of TWO MEN! ... Adam and Jesus of Nazareth

• (1 Cor 15:21-22) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
• (Rom 5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: ... 15 ... For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. ... 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Not even the most powerful Cherubim can sit at God's right hand!

Exactly! That is the point of the writer of Hebrews, who was showing the supremacy and pre-eminence of the MAN Christ Jesus. GOD has so highly exalted this MAN, that even angels and cherubim are subject to him.

• (Heb 1:4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
• (Heb 2:5-9) For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus ...
• Hence the true meaning of Psalms 8 is fulfilled in Jesus, THAT MAN, THAT SON OF MAN!! No! The world to come is NOT to be made subject to angels or cherubim, but to the MAN Christ Jesus and all those humans who shall reign with him! (Cp. Dan 7:14,27)
• (1 Pet 3:21-22) ... the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
• (Eph 1:20-22) Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world [age], but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
• See also 1 Cor 15:27-28

Jesus of Nazareth is the most highly exalted human being in this world [age], and in the world [age] to come!
Higher than even the angels and cherubim!
Yet (1 Cor 15:27) ... it is manifest [IT IS OBVIOUS, IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING] that he [ALMIGHTY GOD] is excepted [NOT INCLUDED, EXEMPT], which did put all things under him.


Therefore 'Believer' ... believest thou the prophets? [Acts 26:27]; do you believe ALL that the prophets have spoken? [Luke 24:25]; do you believe all things which are written in the law and in the prophets? [Acts 24:14]

Live by your 'handle'
Investigate these things. See if they be so. PROVE ALL THINGS. HOLD FAST THAT WHICH IS GOOD.
It may appear 'heresy' to you now! It did so to the hearers of the apostles, etc. [Acts 24:14]
However, if you investigate these things. Investigate what the Scriptures declare and 'believe' it ... I am confident that you will come to the same conclusion. Of course, this will not come overnight! Like I said, it may appear a hard pill to swallow now! I encourage you, therefore, to prayerfully take time to investigate these things.

However, the facts remains ... that Jesus of Nazareth was and is a man, a human being. Of course, he was no ordinary (hu)man, being the Son of GOD, conceived/begotten by the power of GOD, like us in all points, yet without sin. He is no ordinary (hu)man NOW! Seeing that he has been raised from the dead, given immortality, and is even at the right hand of GOD! And we yet await for his return when he will come, just as Daniel prophesied, with a kingdom and with power and with glory; his kingdom will have no end - all nations shall serve him ALL TO THE GLORY OF THE ONE GOD, His Father!!

(Phil 2:11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

ONE GOD, the Father, namely YAHWEH
ONE Lord, the man Christ Jesus, the Son of the Father.

Hope your search will be fruitful ...

[Murdock]

Jesus's behavior showed the world who God is. Mohammed's behavior showed the world who Satan is. End of story.

[Omega]

Hello adampastor and thank so much for responding my friend!

o the Scriptures very much support the fact that this person who is to receive dominion over all people and nations who worship and serve him would be a human. For starters, this person would be Son of man. That is was 'Son of man' means!
MAN, HUMAN!
And guess what!
(Num 23:19) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Jesus of Nazareth called himself, Son of man, nearly 80 times.
'Son of Man' means human; it means humanity NEVER DEITY!!

When you take the phrase Son of man and then translate it to son of adam then you have a problem, Ezekiel is called son of man, Daniel is called Son of man, both in the Olt Testament.

Also take note that when you quoted the Old Testament:God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent, Jesus was without Sin and therefore needed not to REPENT

And another very important note:Every man or woman that is or was or ever will be born is born into this world with imputed Sin, starting from adam, now as you know the immaculate conception is further proof that He{JESUS} WAS SINLESS and as you know man is born with Sin. The very fact that He was sinless proves that He is not a normal man but the GOD-MAN CHRIST JESUS.Son of Man is also in the New Testament, very important note:Jesus spoke in parables, and not only that, if you do a careful study of his word usage and how He applies it, Son of Man is not to be identified in humanistic terms but to be identified by Spirit.

Example:Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Matthew 16:6
How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Matthew 16:11

Leaven is not leaven here but it refers to the wickedness of the pharisees and not actual leaven.

Son of Man in Jesus' term is meant as one who will not only be ruler over all mankind but one who is to bear the burden of sin for mankind when He was crucified on the cross.

Furthermore i do not believe that God Almighty would entrust all authority and all power to a mortal being who is lesser than the angels, does this make sense to you adampastor?

It saddens me when people have a hard time believing that God can become man, that to me is the most fascinating and most wonderful aspect of God Himself.

And last but not least it is clearly written:Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. John 2:19-21

He{JESUS} said that He himself will raise the Body.

Why would it take 3 days to raise the Body?

There is a spiritual connection, meaning that This is done by Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

It is written:Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19

Now it states that all three are one by mentioning to baptize in the NAME{Singular} and not plural.

And i am sure that you know this verse all to well pastor:

Furthermore it is written:That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

It clearly says that God hath raised Him and Jesus said that He Himself will raise His own body, do you see the connection my brother?

The debate regarding over Deity of Christ has been going on for quite a while now, the deity of Christ can only be fully understood by keen spiritual understanding and the closer one gets to the Lord, the more He manifests Himself and reveals Himself to us.

One final note, it is written: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13

This further identifies Him as not being an ordinary man.

I appreciate your response adampastor and the way you handled it in a polite manner.

God Bless!

Are you a Jehovah's Witness?
NO WAY!

[Omega]

Hello again adampastor!

I will start out with this verse:

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. It is God who has created all things in existence, and when He{GOD}manifested Himself in a human body the world did not recognise who He was.

It is written: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

God became one of His own creations and the Body{JESUS} was formed by the Holy Ghost.

Then called I upon the name of the LORD; O LORD, I beseech thee, deliver my soul. Psalm 116:4

The term LORD in that verse translates to YHWH, which is addressed to only God in the Old Testament, Furthermore it is translated in

Greek{KURIOS}Which was also applied to the name of Jesus.

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's: 1 Corinthians 1:2

John 21:17 also says:He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the
third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

How can Jesus know all things if He were not God?
Is not only God omniscient?
A human being cannot and can never know all things, only a infinite being is capable of such.

Also in the book of Micah it says:But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he
come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

This is further proof that He{Jesus}has no beginning, therefore making Him the Eternal God and Saviour my friend.
The term mighty God has been given to both Jesus and the Father:For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall
be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

And compared to:The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. Isaiah 10:21

Both are called mighty God but furthermore Jesus is also called the Everlasting Father as in God the Father, do you see the connection here my friend?

It is written:But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not
only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:17-18

The author recognised Jesus as claiming to be equal with God and so did the Jews. And finally, Jesus said to His disciples,"I will be with you alway, even unto the end of the age" You and i as Christians have God within us
and the Word of God{JESUS}Is within us also and it is the HOLY SPIRIT that brings into rememberance all that we have been taught by the Word{JESUS}of GOD.

That is one of the most fascinating and most unique aspect of God, that is what separates Him as God. No one has seen God at anytime which Jesus said, but the Son who is from the bosom of the Father, it is the Son who can fully reveal the Nature of God and His Love, Compassion, Mercy and GRACE.

There is none like unto Him forever, and only Christ can bring one closer to knowing and understanding God in a personal way.
God Bless you my brother in Christ and thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

[adampastor]

When you take the phrase Son of man and then translate it to son of adam then you have a problem, Ezekiel is called son of man, Daniel is called Son of man, both in the Olt Testament.

I really can’t see what the problem is at all! It proves my point.
Son of Man is a biblical, synonymous term for Man!
Therefore, Daniel was a ‘son of man’ and ‘Ezekiel’ was a ‘son of man’.
In fact, every human being is ‘a son of man’. And that includes Jesus!
And in turn every human being is 'a son (descendant) of Adam'
Hence, (Psa 8:4) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
SON OF MAN = MAN!!

GOD Almighty doubly states therefore in Num 23:19 that HE IS NOT HUMAN!
GOD IS GOD. GOD IS NOT A MAN! HE IS NOT A ‘SON OF MAN’
[Job 9:32, Hosea 11:9]

And another very important note:Every man or woman that is or was or ever will be born is born into this world with imputed Sin, starting from adam, now as you know the immaculate conception is further proof that He{JESUS} WAS SINLESS and as you know man is born with Sin. The very fact that He was sinless proves that He is not a normal man but the GOD-MAN CHRIST JESUS. ... Example:Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Matthew 16:6
How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Matthew 16:11

(Mat 16:12) Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

LEAVEN in this context is DOCTRINE!!
Jesus warns us about the doctrine of the Pharisees & the Sadducees.
I am saying that to say, that one must beware, avoid and reject the leaven of the Hellenistic and Philosophical Greek/Roman so-called Church fathers and their theologians.
It was men such as Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius, Augustine, etc … who introduced terms and concepts such as original/imputed sin, the immaculate conception, GOD-MAN and the such like. This is nonbiblical, nonscriptural leaven which does not represent the faith that was once delivered unto the saints. [Jude 3] It should be avoided at all costs.

BTW, ‘the immaculate conception’ means that Mary was without sin in order that she could give birth to the Christ. I am confident that you do not believe this Catholic doctrine/leaven!
The term ‘virginal conception’ is more in line with the scriptures.

Jesus was ‘sinless’ because he was a new creation … a ‘new’ man … a ‘new’ Adam.
If Almighty GOD could make a sinless man, namely Adam, out of the dust of the earth; he certainly can make a sinless man, the ‘Last Adam’, namely Jesus, of the seed of a woman. Note: Adam was without sin until he fell! Where he failed, Jesus however triumphed. Adam and Jesus, nevertheless, were both MEN! BOTH HUMAN BEINGS!

Jesus by his very conception, shows that he was not ‘a normal man’ – he was and is the Son of GOD!
BTW, considering the way that Adam came into the world, himself being the son of GOD. [Luke 3:38] Would we call Adam, 'a normal man'?? Think about it!

Furthermore I do not believe that God Almighty would entrust all authority and all power to a mortal being who is lesser than the angels, does this make sense to you adampastor?

Hello! Jesus is no longer ‘mortal’ … he is now immortal and he has been exalted higher than the angels!
Therefore, GOD Almighty has indeed entrusted all authority and all power to an immortal human being and has placed all things in subjection to this ‘man’ including the angels.
The OT prophesied this. The NT declares this. GOD declares this. This is the very basis of ‘the Gospel of the Kingdom’
I encourage all to study and investigate this until it makes sense!
It made sense to the OT prophets. It made sense to the Early Church. They preached this message everywhere. It ought to therefore, make sense to us!

It saddens me when people have a hard time believing that God can become man, that to me is the most fascinating and most wonderful aspect of God Himself.

Well it saddens me when people will adhere to a doctrine which clearly contradicts the very words of GOD Himself. His word cannot be broken. GOD is not a man! GOD is immortal & eternal. GOD CANNOT DIE!
The leaven of ‘the GOD-MAN’ is of the rudiments of this world [Col 2:8] – it is not of the doctrine of Christ! Shun it! Reject it! Christ never taught it. The apostles never taught it! The Scriptures do not teach it. The 'GOD-MAN' doctrine/leaven has its roots in paganistic, hellenistic philosophy. Shun it at all costs.
Compare: (Acts 14:11) ... The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.


The Scriptures declare a simple message that a child could understand …
There is ONE GOD, who is invisible, immortal, eternal, who has never been seen, who is Spirit [John 4:24]
This ONE GOD made is human son, Lord of all. His Son is now immortal yet he is still a man [1 Tim 2:5, Acts 17:31, 2:22; etc]

John 2:19-21
He{JESUS} said that He himself will raise the Body.

(John 2:22) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Over 20 times in the NT, after the resurrection of Christ, the Apostles declared that Almighty GOD raised Jesus of Nazareth from the dead; seeing that they believed the word which Jesus had said; they understood what he meant (after his resurrection). Jesus was speaking in a parabolical manner; whilst his enemies may have misunderstood him (as they commonly did e.g. v. 20); his disciples however, after his resurrection understood what he meant!

Therefore, they declared that it was GOD Almighty who raised him from the dead. They never taught or preached anywhere that Jesus literally raised himself from the dead! Think about it!

(1 Cor 15:15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ : whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

To teach otherwise would be to make false witnesses out of the Apostles. They never preached/taught anywhere that Jesus literally raised himself from the dead. Jesus spoke as a prophet and as such, spoke the very words of GOD. Therefore, they understood that it was to be GOD Himself who was to raise Christ from the dead.
In fact, think about it! How could Jesus raise himself from the dead! He couldn't - because he was dead!!
DEAD MEN DON'T RAISE THEMSELVES!!


Conc. Baptism … the Apostles solely baptized in the Name of Jesus. They never used a triune formula. [Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5; 1 Cor 1:1:13, etc]

Conc. John 3:13 … John is narrating after the event i.e. after the ascension. Don’t be fooled by the ‘red ink’.
John 3:13 onwards are the words of John.

[Omega]

Hello again adampastor!

In fact, think about it! How could Jesus raised himself from the dead! He couldn't -
because he was dead!!
DEAD MEN DON'T RAISE THEMSELVES!!

It is somewhat odd that the muslims believe the same.
God is manifested in 3 essences and each are complimentary of each other, it is the breath of God{HOLY GHOST}that raised the Body of Christ.

Christ=GOD Holy Ghost=God
First verse in the Bible:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Who created Heaven and the Earth? GOD
Furthermore it is written:Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Hebrews 1:2

In comparison to What the author John had clearly wrote:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Now how hard can is it to understand this verse my friend? If the Word is God and the Word became flesh, is it not also God?

Well it saddens me when people will adhere to a doctrine which clearly contradicts the very words of GOD Himself. His word cannot be broken. GOD is not a man! GOD is immortal& eternal. GOD CANNOT DIE!

That statement alone testifies that you do not understand nor perceive the things of the Spiritual nature, Evn if i were to explain it to a muslim they would have the exact same response as yours, and furthermore do not believe that Jesus is God just as you say it, no offense my friend i am simply expressing myself in all honesty. Furthermore That is the same belief which the muslims also uphold, they cannot believe God can die,
God did not die, it is written:Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Can you kill the soul of God? If God became man and the body died, how then is God dead if His soul remains?

Hello! Jesus is no longer ‘mortal’ … he is now immortal and he has been exalted higher than the angels!
Therefore, GOD Almighty has indeed entrusted all authority and all power to an immortal human being and has placed all things in subjection to this ‘man’ including the angels.
the OT prophesied this. The NT declares this. GOD declares this. This is the very basis of ‘the Gospel of the Kingdom’ I encourage all to study and investigate this until it makes sense!
It made sense to the OT prophets. It made sense to the Early Church. They preached this message everywhere. It ought to therefore, make sense to us! Jesus was ‘sinless’ because he was a new creation … a ‘new’ man … a ‘new’ Adam.
If Almighty GOD could make a sinless man, namely Adam, out of the dust of the earth; he certainly can make a sinless man, the ‘Last Adam’, namely Jesus, of the seed of a woman. Note: Adam was without sin until he fell! Where he failed, Jesus however triumphed. Adam and Jesus, nevertheless, were both MEN! BOTH HUMAN BEINGS!

You must have not read the verse that i wrote:John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
A human being from Heaven is that possible? you might say that He was created in Heaven, AND NO MAN HATH ASCENDED TO HEAVEN BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN?

BTW, ‘the immaculate conception’ means that Mary was without sin in order that she could give birth to the Christ. I am confident that you do not believe this Catholic doctrine/leaven! The term ‘virginal conception’ is more in line with the scriptures.

I apologize on that one, what i meant to say is that He{JESUS} was born without sin and not that mary was sinless.

It is written:Revelation 1:8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.How can one become almighty? is there not only one almighty being?

You hold some very strong arguements here my friend, but do not let it interfere as brothers in Christ my friend.That is what the Enemy is attempting, i can assure you if that.

You skipped past some of the most important verses that i quoted such as:John 21:17 also says:He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. How can Jesus know all things, unless the author is somehow poor in grammar.
Another verse in which you had bypassed:Also in the book of Micah it says:But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

How is He created if He is from everlasting?

I can see that you stand firm in your belief and so do i, and it will remain that way. All my life i have searched for God and now I have found Him in the person of Jesus. And the blessed assurance is mine.

God Bless you adampastor and thank you for responding and i hope to hear from you soon.

[Omega]

I forgot to mention this verse:Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:57-58

How do you compare He{JESUS}to the first man{ADAM} if HE existed before abraham but also before adam, adam is from earth and Jesus is from above.

It is written that the very words{JESUS} of God formed Adam from the earth, HE{JESUS} existed before adam because HE created adam.

The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the very Word of God and without it{THE WORD} nothing was made, including the First man Adam.

Jesus was ‘sinless’ because he was a new creation … a ‘new’ man … a ‘new’ Adam.
If Almighty GOD could make a sinless man, namely Adam, out of the dust of the earth; he certainly can make a sinless man, the ‘Last Adam’, namely Jesus, of the seed of a woman. Note: Adam was without sin until he fell! Where he failed, Jesus however triumphed. Adam and Jesus, nevertheless, were both MEN! BOTH HUMAN BEINGS!

How is Jesus a new Adam if Jesus existed before Adam?

And you also said that God made a sinless man, which once again does not quite make sense because He{JESUS} was not made but HE{JESUS}MADE ADAM.

Kinda strange, i don't see your name as one of the visitors who visited this website in the last 24 hours when you have.

God Bless!

[Believer]

Peace adampastor,

Omega is right, Jesus Christ existed before Adam.
You say Jesus was purely a human like us?
That is just impossible for many reason, including this reason.
Let me put an end to this discussion, Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.
Jesus Christ was not created by two sex cells, so He was not of Mankind like us.
Jesus was not created iin the womb, His soul always existed and He just transcended into this world through Mary.
He was not related to any human being because He in His essence was God and He was only a human being only for a short time on earth. He was of the essence of God, and He was God Himself incarnate.


And yet Jesus was a decendant of David. How can this be???
Jesus was from the HOUSE of King David.
He was born to Mary who was Joseph's fiancee.
Joseph was from the house of David and Mary belonged to him, thus Jesus Christ was from the house a David, one of his "sons"
Jesus is eternal! He always was, is, and always will be.
The Messiah is of the essence of God like the Father and Holy Spirit.

[Alpha]

GOD Almighty doubly states therefore in Num 23:19 that HE IS NOT HUMAN!
GOD IS GOD. GOD IS NOT A MAN! HE IS NOT A ‘SON OF MAN’
[Job 9:32, Hosea 11:9]

Those verses are stating the charcteristics of man which God does not have because He is too Holy. It is not saying that God cannot send His only begotten Son to die for our sins. Also, those charcteristics which God says He doesn't have but man does, Christ did not have those charcteristics either. So what does that tell you?

[Omega]

I must mention this verse which shows the triune God at work.

It is clearly written: And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16,17

Do you see what is going on here adam?

The SON is baptized.
The HOLY SPIRIT descends.
THE FATHER speaks.

And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? Genesis 3:9

[Omega]

Hello Adampastor?

In fulfillment of Psalms 110:1, Almighty GOD highly exalted
1. Jesus and made him both Lord & Christ, Lord of all!! [Acts 2:36, 10:36]
GOD has placed all things under his feet! However ...
(1 Cor 15:27-28 ) For he [GOD] hath put all things under his [the man
Christ Jesus'] feet. But when he [GOD] saith all things are put under
him [the man Christ Jesus], it is manifest [IT IS OBVIOUS, IT IS CLEAR]
that he [GOD] is excepted [NOT INCLUDED, ALMIGHTY GOD IS EXEMPT,
EXCLUDED] which did put all things under him [the man Christ Jesus]. 28 And
when all things shall be subdued unto him [the man Christ Jesus], then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [GOD] that put all things
under him [the Son], that God may be all in all.

That is a difficult expression and has been misunderstood to suggest
that the apostle Paul subordinated the Son to the Father.
When Paul says that the Son is subjected to the Father, he is not
speaking of the Son in terms of His essence, but in terms of His
function and ministry as the Son incarnate. Also Pauls statement is
best understood dispensationally. At this present time the
administration of the messianic kingdom is given to the Son, However, at the end of
the messianic kingdom, this role will be returned to the Father that
God may be all in all.

Therefore, in answer to your question, how can there be a Lord higher
than Jesus if He is called Lord of Lords?
The answer is ...
GOD is GOD and cannot be subject nor equal to anyone else, seeing that
there is solely ONE GOD, the Father, namely YAHWEH. Therefore it is
obvious, it goes without saying that GOD will always be higher than Jesus
irrespective of how high He exalts him; and therefore, GOD will always
be Lord over the Lord Jesus!
The title 'Lord of all' does does NOT include GOD. GOD has made Jesus,
Lord of all, however GOD is NOT subject to anyone, including Jesus. It
is clearly the other way round [1 Cor 15:27-28, John 10:29, 14:28]

That really does not explain the simplicity of those
words, it is final, there is no confusion and there is no way around it.

It is written:Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and
was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys
of hell and of death.
Who is it that liveth? GOD, and you cannot apply that term to Him
because He became immortal, then you would have to call everyone at the
regeneration they that liveth, and there is only ONE being who was always
alive which is better known as He that liveth.

As the scriptures declare, God is no the God of the dead, but the
God of the Living.

The Greek word for hu(man) is anthropos. The apostles had no
more problem proclaiming that Jesus is a (hu)man, post-resurrection e.g.
(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man [anthropos] Christ Jesus;

Better yet, the whole concept of it is called
anthropomorphism, on occasion the scriptures use expressions that seem to
attribute human, physical features to God{fingers, hands, arms, and
face}which are called anthropomorphisms. Because God is spirit and
not a body, we know that these expressions do not describe Him
physically but are used to help man understand truths concerning God.

(Heb 1:4) Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath
by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (Heb 2:5-9)
For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come,
whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is
man, that
thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with
glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou
hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put
all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.
But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus ...

Hence the true meaning of Psalms 8 is fulfilled in Jesus, THAT MAN,
THAT SON OF MAN!!
No! The world to come is NOT to be made subject to angels or cherubim,
but to the MAN
Christ Jesus and all those humans who shall reign with him! (Cp. Dan
7:14,27)
(1 Pet 3:21-22) ... the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone
into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and
powers being made subject unto him. (Eph 1:20-22) Which he wrought in
Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right
hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power,
and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this
world [age], but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all
things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the
church,
See also 1 Cor 15:27-28 Jesus of Nazareth is the most highly exalted
human being in this world [age], and in the world [age] to come!
Higher than even the angels and cherubim! Yet (1 Cor 15:27) ... it is
manifest [IT IS OBVIOUS, IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING] that he
[ALMIGHTY GOD] is excepted [NOT INCLUDED, EXEMPT], which did put all
things under him.

I would like to explain those verses in a different context than yours.

What the writer i strying to say is that angels will not have authority
in the world to come. In the age to come angels will have no authority
over the saints, in fact it is The saints who will judge the angels.

It is written:Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how
much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments
of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least
esteemed in the church. 1 Corinthians 6:3
Psalm 8 shows that man will rule in Gods coming age.
Psalm 8 describes man being made a little lower than the angels. "A
little"{Gr. brachu ti}has two meanings to it. It could refer to a little while
or a little lower. Although God has made man a little lower than the
angels for the time being. He also crowned him with glory and honour and
set him over His creation. Just as God said at the time of creation,
God will ultimately place His creation into mans hands through Christ. By
death Chrsit will regain for man what he lost by sin and death.
"ALL THINGS" meaning God will not leave anything, including angels
separate of mans dominion.

Jesus by his very conception, shows that he was not ‘a normal
man’ – he was and is the Son of GOD! BTW, considering the way that Adam
came into the world, himself being the son of GOD.
[Luke 3:38] Would we call Adam, 'a normal man'?? Think about it!

There is a huge difference between Son of God and The Only
Begotten Son of God.The Greek word monogenes is used to show the
unique relationship between God the Father and Jesus as the
Son of the Father. It distinguishes Christ as the only Son of God in
comparison to the many children of God. Human beings become children of
God whereas Christ always was the Son of God.

It is written:John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine
own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world
was.

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou
art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

So when was Jesus begotten? the answer to this question is dependant on
the word"DAY" God transcends time and lives beyond
time, He cannot be limited to a 24-hour day. So this word means and
eternal day.

John 2:22) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his
disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the
scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Over 20 times in the NT, after the resurrection of Christ, the Apostles
declared that Almighty GOD raised Jesus of Nazareth from the dead;
seeing that they believed the word which Jesus had said; they understood
what he meant (after his resurrection). Jesus was speaking in a
parabolical manner; whilst his enemies may have misunderstood him (as
they commonly did e.g. v. 20); his disciples however, after his
resurrection understood what he meant! Therefore, they declared that it was
GOD Almighty who raised him from the dead. They never taught or preached
anywhere that Jesus literally raised himself from the dead!
Think about it!

I have, and here is what i came up with: The disciples understood that
it meant after His resurrection? where does it say that?

In fact, think about it! How could Jesus raised himself from the
dead! He couldn't - because he was dead!! DEAD MEN DON'T RAISE
THEMSELVES!!

How about the Holy Spirit who also is God
and that breathed life into the body of Christ!

And if you would like scriptural proof concerning the deity of the Holy
Ghost then i will present it to you here.

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to
the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles
it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in
thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?
thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Acts 5:3,4

In Verse 3 Peter states that Ananias has lied to the Holy
Spirit, and in verse 4 Ananias is told that he has
lied to God.

Conc. Baptism … the Apostles solely baptized in the Name of
Jesus. They never used a triune formula. [Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48, 19:5; 1
Cor 1:1:13, etc]

If i may elaborate on that, the baptismal formula in the book of Acts
refers to being baptized in Jesus name emphasizing His deity as Saviour
and not a contradiction to the formula in which Jesus gave.

Conc. John 3:13 … John is narrating after the event i.e. after
the ascension. Don’t be fooled by the ‘red ink’. John 3:13 onwards are
the words of John.

The red ink is not fooling nor is it attempting to fool anyone. How can
John be referring to after the ascension if Jesus is speaking to
Nicodemus within the same verses when Jesus HAS NOT died yet?

Unless you are trying to say that the author John is somehow confused
or lying.

Please forgive me if i sounded offensive.

God Bless my friend.

[roshan]

who is the real father of jesus,? the verse''for God so loved the world that he gave his only Begotten Son''JOHN 3:16 is quoted in KING JAMES VERSION 1611A.C.its Omitted from REVISED STANDARDVERSION 1952 &1971 and in all latest versions
MATHEW1:1 the book of generation as son of DAVID &son of abraham.mathew1:16 'AND jacob begot Joseph the husband of mary of whom was born Jesus who is called CHRIST'.Mathew 1:18 'when as his mother mary was expoused to joseph , before they came together , she was found with child of the holy ghost.
there are many devine sons of GOD other than JESUS,genesis 6:2 'that the sons of god saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and took them wives of all which they choose.Exodus4:22 'and thou shalt say unto pharaoh,thus saith the lord ,israel is my son , even first born.ROMANS 8:14FOR as many as are led by the spirit of god ,they are the sons of god. Thus Dear FRIENDS , the confusion persists .

[Alpha]

who is the real father of jesus,? the verse''for God so loved the world that he gave his only Begotten Son''JOHN 3:16 is quoted in KING JAMES VERSION 1611A.C.its Omitted from REVISED STANDARDVERSION 1952 &1971 and in all latest versions
MATHEW1:1 the book of generation as son of DAVID &son of abraham.mathew1:16 'AND jacob begot Joseph the husband of mary of whom was born Jesus who is called CHRIST'.Mathew 1:18 'when as his mother mary was expoused to joseph , before they came together , she was found with child of the holy ghost.
there are many devine sons of GOD other than JESUS,genesis 6:2 'that the sons of god saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and took them wives of all which they choose.Exodus4:22 'and thou shalt say unto pharaoh,thus saith the lord ,israel is my son , even first born.ROMANS 8:14FOR as many as are led by the spirit of god ,they are the sons of god. Thus Dear FRIENDS , the confusion persists .

There is obviously a distinction between Christ being called the Son of God and others being called sons of God. The Father said when referring to Jesus, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Christ was the Saviour, He was born of the virgin birth, He was the one who died and ressurected. Please do not compare him to ordinary men. Christ was both the son of man AND the Son of God as the Bible points out MANY times.

[adampastor]

Greetings Omega,
HERE WE GO …

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. It is God who has created all things in existence …

John 1:10 is talking about Jesus, the Son of the Creator. The Scriptures recognized solely ONE Creator ... this ONE Creator is YAHWEH, the GOD of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob; the GOD & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. [Mal 2:10]; YAHWEH created all things alone! [Isa 44:24]
What the biased KJV translators did was to translate the Greek word ’dia’ as ‘by’ in v.10. They did the same thing in Col 1:16, Eph 3:9, and Heb 1:2; hence to foist their doctrine/leaven that a ‘God the Son’ made all things. However this is not what the Scriptures teach. The Greek word ’dia’ can also be translated ... ‘because of’ i.e.
(Mat 27:19) … for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
(John 7:43) So there was a division among the people because of him.
(John 12:30) Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

It can also be translated ‘for’ e.g. in Mark 2:27 you do not read that
… The sabbath was made by man, and not man by the sabbath: but rather … The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Hence you are not given the impression that somehow ‘man made the sabbath’!

And around 88 times ’dia’ is translated ‘through’.

Hence, John 1:10 need not to be translated ‘by’ but rather THROUGH! Therefore, GOD Almighty, the Father, made all things with His Son in mind ... with His Son in view. Hence the Son was in the world, and the world was made actually by GOD the Father THROUGH the Son [i.e. in view of the Son], and the world knew the Son not.
This verse is definitely NOT saying that Jesus the Messiah made all things!
The Scriptures teach no such thing. Both Christ [Mark 10:6, 13:19] and the apostles [Acts 4:24, 14:15, 17:24 cp. Matt 11:25, Luke 10:24] taught that GOD, the Father, namely YAHWEH; is the sole Creator of all things. In fact, in NO Jewish writings (I am open to be corrected) will you find any concept that the Messiah is the Creator or Maker of all things. In fact, let me quote from the Talmud that also gives the gist of what I am saying ...

”The World was not Created but only for the Messiah”

It is written: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh ... 1 Timothy 3:16

No doubt, Jesus is the ultimate manifestation of Almighty GOD; through him, GOD is revealed and made known. However, Jesus is NOT God Himself, rather, he is a manifestation or representation (see Heb 1:3 the exact representation of His nature) of the ONE GOD. A manifestation is NOT the very thing it is manifesting; neither is a representation the very thing that it represents!
BTW, since knowledge has increased, are you aware of the latest discoveries concerning 1 Tim 3:16! Even way back in the 17th century, Isaac Newton wrote a book called ’Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture’, where he traced how two verses as we know them today (that is, how they read today) got into the Received Text. One verse is the notorious 1 John 5:7, guess what the other verse is??

God became one of His own creations and the Body {JESUS} was formed by the Holy Ghost.

Huh! Scripture please!! The Bible teaches no such that.
GOD is totally distinct from His own creations. The Creator is totally distinct from the creation and will forever so be.

Remember, what he warned ...

• (Deut 4:16) Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a
  graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or
  female
• (Rom 1:23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible
  God into an image made like to corruptible man …

Statements such as ‘God became one of His own creations’ have their roots in paganistic philosophy. See for example, (Acts 14:11) … saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. – It appears that the Lycaonians were experts in the doctrine of the incarnation!! Paul and Barnabas told them to turn from these vanities unto the Living GOD, the Creator. [verse 15] – EXTREMELY GOOD ADVICE!!

It was the Greek/Roman pagans who taught (long before the birth of Christ) the doctrines of god-men; the Bible refutes such teaching. Jesus is NOT the body of GOD; he is the Son of GOD! In HIM, GOD is revealed and manifested.
Also, Jesus is NOT a body! How can you say such a demeaning thing? Jesus is a human being.
Jesus is NOT an ‘it’. He’s a ‘he’. He is a man. He is not a body! He is a ‘person’.
He has a body but he is NOT a body. In HIM, GOD is revealed and manifested.

Then called I upon the name of the LORD; O LORD, I beseech thee, deliver my soul. Psalm 116:4The term LORD in that verse translates to YHWH, which is addressed to only God in the Old Testament, Furthermore it is translated in Greek {KURIOS} Which was also applied to the name of Jesus. Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 1 Corinthians 1:2

Omega, in my previous post, I showed how there are 4 Hebrew words translated ‘lord’ in the KJV... YAHWEH, Adonai, adon, adoni. In the Greek text however only one Greek word is used for all 4; that is ‘kurios’. Hence for example :-

• The word ‘YAHWEH’ in Deut 6.4, ‘kurios’ is used in Mark 12:29-30;
• For the word ‘Adonai’ in Isa 61:1, ‘kurios’ is used in Luke 4:18;
• For the word ‘adon’ in Josh 3:11,13; Zech 6:5, etc, ‘kurios’ is used in Matthew 10:25, Luke 10:21; for the word ‘adoni’ in Psalms 110:1, ‘kurios’ is used in Matt 22:44-45, Mark 12:36-37, Acts 2:34, etc

’Kurios’ is the word used in all these cases.

• Scripturally, solely GOD Almighty, the Father alone is YAHWEH; His name alone is YAHWEH; [Psa 83.18]; He alone goes by the sole title of ADONAI, the Supreme Lord! So it is obvious that in verses such as Mark 12:28, Acts 4:36, Matt 1:22, 2:15, 3:3; Luke 1:32, 68; 4:18; Rev 4:8, 11:15, etc; ’kurios’ is being used for YAHWEH or ADONAI.
• In the Hebrew Bible (a better term for the ‘Old’ Testament), GOD is known as the ‘Adon of all the earth’ [Josh 3:11,13, Zech 6:5] and He is also called ‘Our Adon’ [Neh 10:29, Psa 8:1, 135:5, etc]
• Hence you can see a continuation of this theme in the NT e.g. Matt 10:25, Luke 10:24, Rev 11:15]
• Men are called ‘adon’ in the Hebrew Bible; this is also seen in the NT e.g. Abraham is called ‘kurios’. [1 Pet 3:16]
• And of course, Jesus of Nazareth, who is ’lord/kurios’ of all those who believe on him, and obey his gospel, both Jew and Gentile, hence 1 Corinthians 1:2. Together, we can acknowledge that the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY has made the man Christ Jesus, Lord of all; and one day every one shall do so to the glory of the ONE GOD, the Father. [Acts 2:36, 10:36, Phil 2:11]
• Also for ‘adoni, my lord’, kurio (mou) is used as in Matt 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 22:44, Act 2:34, Luke 16:5

So, one cannot jump to any conclusion, just because someone is referred to as ‘kurios’; otherwise persons such as Philip [John 12:21] and Pilate[Matt 27:63] could be equated with Godhood, because they also are called ‘kurios’.

Of a truth it takes the holy spirit of GOD to reveal in what sense, Jesus the Messiah is ‘lord/kurios’.
(1 Cor 12:3) … and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

How can Jesus know all things if He were not God? Is not only God omniscient?
A human being cannot and can never know all things, only an infinite being is capable of such.

How can Jesus know all things? How about an omniscient GOD revealing ‘all things’ to him! It’s that simple.
GOD showed Jesus things. He revealed things to Jesus. It was part of the job description of a prophet to ‘know things supernaturally’ (cp. the Pharisee’s comments [Luke 7:39] This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him:). How did Elisha know what Gehazi had done? [2 Kings 5:25-27] GOD revealed it to him! How did Elisha know what the king of Israel said in his bedchamber? i.e. what he said in secret? [2 King 6:12] GOD revealed it to him! (See also Daniel 2:19, 22,28,47, Amos 3:7)
(Amos 3:7) Surely Adonai YAHWEH will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Therefore, here comes Jesus ‘the Prophet Par Excellence’; the one who would speak the very words of GOD Himself in a way that no previous prophet had done [Deut 18:15,18-19, John 12:49-50]; it goes without saying that via the Son’s intimate relationship with his Father, that GOD will reveal many things to His Chosen One, even the intents of men’s hearts, etc. And by the way, ‘all things’ must be taken into context; Jesus was certainly NOT omniscient. For example, he didn’t know along with the heavenly holy angels, when the day of his coming/parousia would be!

Neither did he know the times when GOD was to restore the kingdom to Israel! [Mark 13:32, Acts 1:6-7] If he had known he would have told his disciples! [(John 15:15) Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.]
Jesus only knew what the Father had revealed and showed him. Hence, the scriptures clearly to NOT portray the Son as omniscient.

[adampastor]

Also in the book of Micah it says: But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. This is further proof that He {Jesus} has no beginning, therefore making Him the Eternal God and Saviour my friend.

Jesus most definitely does have a beginning. Matthew speaks of the ‘genesis’ of Jesus Christ. [Matt 1:1]. Neither Matthew nor Luke in their narration about how Christ came into existence, has any concept of literal pre-existence.
Now let us look at the phrase ‘from everlasting’. The Hebrew is OWLAM
(Strong’s 5769). Now note how it is translated in the following verses: (In each case the word(s) translated from OWLAM are CAPITALIZED)

• mighty men which were OF OLD: Gen. 6:4;
• for those nations were OF OLD: 1 Sam. 27:8;
• the ANCIENT people: Isa 44:7;
• in the generations OF OLD: Isa 51:9;
• Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far ... it is an ANCIENT nation: Jer 5:15;
• the prophets ... OF OLD: Jer 28:8;
• the people OF OLD TIME: Ezek 26:20;
• tabernacle of David ... as in the days OF OLD: Amos 9:11;
• days OF OLD: Micah 7:14, Mal. 3:4

Although OWLAM in the right context can be used to denote ‘eternity’, it is clear to see that OWLAM in the above cases cannot mean eternal/eternity i.e. eternal mighty men, eternal nations, eternal prophets, eternal people, etc.
And this goes also for Micah 5:2 which is a verse simply speaking about the coming (that is, his first coming) and birthplace of the Messiah (as used in Matt 2:5-6, John 7:42). It is simply saying that the Coming of the Messiah had been depicted and spoken of from days of old, from of old time, even from the time of Abraham, who rejoiced to see his day. [John 8:56]
The KJV English translators being biased by their trinitarian theology used the words ‘from everlasting’.
Therefore, using the same Hebrew word, Micah 5:2 could so easily be
translated: ”… yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be
ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from old time.”
Compare :-

• Revised Standard Version (hereafter cited as RSV) Micah 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.
  (Likewise the New Revised Standard Version has the same rendition; hereafter cited as NRS)
• Young’s Literal Translation Micah 5:2 And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah,
  Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth—to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth {are} of old, From the days of antiquity.
• New American Bible Micah 5:1 But you, Bethlehem-Ephrathah too small to be among the clans of Judah, From you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel; Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times.
• New Jerusalem Bible (hereafter cited as NJB) Micah 5:1 But you
  (Bethlehem) Ephrathah, the least of the clans of Judah, from you will come for me a future ruler of Israel whose origins go back to the distant past, to the days of old.

That is all this verse is saying. It is Messianic. It is the verse that the
Jews in Herod’s time turned to, knowing full well that this verse was speaking about the ‘Coming and Birth of the Messiah’. The coming and origin of the Messiah was prophesied from old or ancient times, even as ancient as Adam & Eve [Gen 3:15], Abraham [Gen 22:18, Gal 3:16], Judah [Gen 49:8-10], David [2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11-13, Psalms 132:11, Isaiah 11:1,10, Jere 23:5, 33:15], Daniel [9:25-26], etc. The Jews were expecting a Davidide Israelite king whose origin had been spoken of from ancient times, to be born in Bethlehem.
This is what Micah 5:2 is all about. Again, you find nothing in the Jewish
writings, before and after the time of Christ (I am open to be corrected), that speak of the Messiah being an Eternal Being who would be born into the world.

The term mighty God has been given to both Jesus and the Father: For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 And compared to: The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. Isaiah 10:21 Both are called mighty God …

There is always the possibility that Isaiah 9:6 is a simply a name being
given to a child (similar to Mahershalalhashbaz, Isaiah 8:3, or
Immanuel, Isaiah 7:14, 8:8 ). This is suggested by the Jewish Publication Society’s Masoretic Text rendering of Isaiah 9:6: “And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom.
Incidentally, many ancient rabbis had understood Isaiah 9:6-7 to be speaking of King Hezekiah as well as the Messiah e.g.

”Hezekiah, who was very unlike his father Ahaz. This passage is acknowledged, not only by Christians, but by the Chaldee interpreter, to relate in the same manner, but in a more excellent sense, to the Messiah.”—Annotationes ad vetus et Novum Testamentum, by Hugo Grotius, 1583-1645.

The Jewish Publication Society’s Masoretic Text, as cited above, says this …

There are good reasons to apply the name to Hezekiah, since this is one of those outstanding texts of Isaiah that speak in exalted and royal terms both of Israel’s kings and the coming human Messiah. The hope of Israel was resting on the permanence of David’s dynasty. The symbolic name given to the royal child signified more than a continuation of the dynasty. It meant a decisive intervention by God whose own greatness would become manifest in his dealings with and blessings upon Hezekiah.
This is suggested by the Jewish Publication Society’s Masoretic Text rendering of Isaiah 9:5:
“And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom”.

Either way, whether Jews saw this verse, as Messianicly or not, they all interpreted this verse as speaking of an Israelite king – they never interpreted Isaiah 9:6 as speaking of deity!! They had NO CONCEPT of ALMIGHTY GOD being born! IT NEVER EVER ENTERED THEIR MINDS! (I have never come across it in any Jewish writings, although I am open to be corrected)


Nevertheless, let us individually look at the terms mighty god & everlasting father.


The term ‘mighty God’ in Hebrew is ’el gibbor’, which in fact, is never used of the Father! The Brown, Driver and Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, p.42 (hereafter cited as BDB), the best lexicon around, informs us that ’el gibbor’ in Isaiah 9:6 means ”divine hero (as reflecting the divine majesty)”. In fact, the Hebrew bible speaks of more than one ‘el gibbor’.

The plural ‘elei gibborim’ can be found in Ezek 32:21, the BDB informing us that thereby it means ”mighty heroes”. It is translated in the KJV as ”The strong among the mighty”. It is therefore talking about the strongest mighty men and definitely not deities!
(NJB translates it as ”the mightiest heroes”. The RSV/NRS translates it as ”the mighty chiefs”.)

How much more the Messiah, who is the most mightiest man/hero in the universe, the most ultimate representative of GOD Himself, who so perfectly reflects the divine majesty of GOD. How rightly he is the ultimate ‘el gibbor’, the strongest, mightiest one of them all, next to GOD the Father.

In the Hebrew bible, men that is human beings, are not only sometimes called elohim [e.g. Exo 7:1, 21:6, 22:8-9,28; Psa 82:6] but they are also sometimes called el(ei) or el(im) as shown above. (For example, Ezek 32:11, Nebuchadnezzar, the el {mighty one} of the heathen).
In each of these cases, these men have not been deified neither have they somehow become ‘god-men’!!

When they are called elohim (Strong’s 430) it is as representatives of GOD ... they represent Almighty GOD.
The same goes for the Messiah. [Psa 45:6 cp. Heb 1:8].

When men are called el (Strong’s 410, 352 and 193) it is used to denote that they are MIGHTY, STRONG men. [e.g. Exo 15:15, Job 41:25, Ezek 17:13, 31:17, etc]
How much more the ‘warrior-king’ whose return we are awaiting, the King Messiah. He won’t be ‘No Gentle Jesus, Meek & Mild’ at his return. Oh no! He will be the ‘mighty one of GOD’ who will execute the wrath and judgment of GOD; [Isa 61:2, 2 Thess 1:7-8, Rev 6:16-17, 19:15] whose enemies will be made his footstool! [Psalms 110:1, Heb 10:13]


Now concerning Isaiah 10:21 ... the fact is the definite article ’the’ is NOT in the Hebrew text of this verse. The text actually reads “… the remnant of Jacob, unto [a] mighty god” i.e. ‘el gibbor’, the ‘el gibbor’ of Isaiah 9:6, the Messiah. The text is talking about Israel acknowledging the Messiah after the Messiah destroys The Assyrian. Look at the context of Isaiah 10, noting the fact that Isaiah called the Messiah, el gibbor in Chapter 9; in the very next chapter he uses the title again; there is no need to believe he is not referring again to the Messiah. See the context :- Isaiah 10:5-11:4:

• {10:5} “Woe to the Assyrian…[the instrument for the punishment of Israel, to bring her back to God and the Messiah]. {v. 12} When the Lord has completed all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say: ‘I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the King of Assyria…’ {v. 16} The Lord will send a wasting disease among his stout warriors. And under Assyria’s glory a fire will be kindled like a burning flame. And the light of Israel will become a fire and His Holy One a flame and it will burn and devour Assyria’s thorns and his briars in a single day…
• {v. 20} Now it will come about in that day that the remnant of Israel and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on YAHWEH, the Holy One of Israel.
• {v. 21} A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob to a Mighty God [Divine Warrior, the Messiah – note: there is no ‘definite article’].
• {v. 22} For though your people Israel may be like the sand of the sea, only a remnant within them will return. A destruction is determined overflowing with righteousness. For a complete destruction, one that is decreed, ADONAI YAHWEH of Hosts will execute in the midst of the whole land. Therefore, thus says ADONAI YAHWEH of Hosts, ‘O my people who dwell in Zion, do not fear the Assyrian, who strikes you with a rod and lifts up his staff…{v. 25} For in a very little while My indignation against you will be spent and My anger will be directed to the destruction of Assyria… {v. 33} Behold, Adon YAHWEH of hosts will lop off the boughs with a terrible crash…
• {Isaiah 11:1} Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots will bear fruit. And the spirit of YAHWEH will rest upon him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of YAHWEH…
• {11:4} With righteousness he will judge the poor and decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth. And he will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips he will destroy the wicked one.”
• How does Paul deal with this information?
  He gives inspired commentary on it. In Romans 9:27, 28 he quotes Isaiah 10:22, 23, repeating the prophet’s vision of the future when the Messiah returns. In 2 Thessalonians 2:8 he warns of the coming of the Wicked one and describes the destruction of the Wicked one by Jesus, using the words found in Isaiah 11:4 (above).
• Paul, in other words, expects the Wicked one to be the Assyrian of the end-time and he sees the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:4 at the coming of Jesus. Jesus will eliminate the Assyrian “with the breath of his lips.” All this is part and parcel of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom to which the Gospel invites us and the Kingdom, which will assert divine government across the globe.

Hence the ‘el gibbor – mighty god’ spoken of in Isaiah 10:21 is indeed the Messiah In conclusion then, since ELOHIM is used in regards to men and judges; and since EL is used in regards to ‘power’ (e.g. Gen 31:29, Micah 2:1,etc), idols (Isaiah 44:10,15,17,etc) and mighty men including heathen kings such as Nebuchadnezzar (e.g. Ezek 31:11); EL (and ELOHIM) being used in a title for the Messiah is no proof of the so-called deity of the Messiah.

… but furthermore Jesus is also called the Everlasting Father
as in God the Father, do you see the connection here my
friend?

You are kidding, right? Am I misunderstanding you? Are you saying that Jesus IS the Father!!!
I assumed you were a trinitarian not a modalist neither ‘Oneness’ in your
theology!!! Guess I got that wrong as well. Beside the very obvious fact that Jesus is clearly called the ‘Son of the Father’ [2 John 3] in the Scriptures; maybe I am misunderstanding you.

Let us look at the Hebrew phrase translated as ‘everlasting father’ i.e.
abi-ad (Strong’s 1 & 5703)

Practically every name that begins with ‘ab(i)-‘ (Strong’s 1) is translated ‘father of’. e.g.

1. Abraham – father of a multitude
2. Abimelech – father of the king
3. Abidah – father of knowledge
4. Abiasaph – father of gathering
5. Abidan – father of judgement
6. Abihail – father of might
7. Abinoam – father of pleasantness
8. Abner – father of light
9. Abiathar – father of abundance
10. Absalom – father of peace
11. Abinadab – father of generosity
12. Abishai – father of a gift
13. Abishua – father of plenty

ET CETERA

Abi-ad’ can therefore be translated ‘father of the age’ hence the Messiah
will be ‘the father of the age to come’; as translated in :-

• “Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty One, Potentate,
  Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come.”—The Septuagint as found in the Codex Alexandrinus, translated by Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton, c. 1850. (Also translated in this manner by Archimandrite Ephrem Lash)

See also

• “Wonder-Counsellor, Divine Champion, Father Ever, Captain of Peace.”—Byington
• “A wonder of a counsellor, a divine hero, a father for all time, a peaceful prince.”—Moffatt
• Interestingly, the Catholic Douay-Rheims Version of the Bible calls Messiah “the Father of the world to come.”

Of course being called ‘father’ doesn’t make Christ ‘deity’ anymore than Abraham or Eliakim or Joseph being ‘deity’ even though they are called ‘our father’ or ‘a father to the inhabitants of Israel’ or ‘a father to Pharaoh’ respectively [John 8:53, Rom 4:12, Isa 22:20-21, Gen 45:8].
In the age to come, the Messiah will be the ‘father’ of that age in fulfillment of Isa 9:6 (also compare Isa 22:20-22 with Rev 3:7). Jesus will demonstrate that he is the “Father of the Coming Age” because he will “raise the dead and gives them life” in the age to come. Clearly, Jesus will be an ‘eternal’ “Father of the world to come,” the “Father of the age to come,” since both he and the children given to him by God will live forever.

[adampastor]

It is written: But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I
work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:17-18
The author recognised Jesus as claiming to be equal with God and so did the Jews.

The author recognized no such thing!! The author narrated Jesus’ enemies’ accusations against him. The author recorded the accusation that “Jesus claimed to make himself equal to God”. You weren’t supposed to take the side of the accusers! You won’t supposed to believe the words of Jesus’ accusers!! Did Jesus ever break the sabbath? Of course not! Therefore how can one accusation be false and the other be true? NO! BOTH accusations are FALSE!
From that very moment, Jesus begins to refute the accusation that he is ‘equal with GOD’.

Did Jesus actually say, “that he was equal with GOD” NO!
His accusers said it!! Listen to the words of Jesus himself ... listen to
what HE SAID …

• (John 5:19) … The Son can do nothing of himself …
• (John 5:30) I can of mine own self do nothing : …

Now I ask you, how can Almighty GOD do nothing OF HIMSELF?? How can ‘His Equal’ do nothing OF HIMSELF?? How can a GOD-MAN OF HIS OWN SELF do nothing??
These are not the words of ‘deity’. These are the words of a man - total
humanity. A MAN who is totally dependant upon Almighty GOD for all things ... A MAN who is totally dependant upon Almighty GOD doing the signs, wonders and miracles. As Jesus said ”the Father … He doeth the works” (John 14:10 cp. Acts 2.22 miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD did THROUGH him)
Throughout John 5:19-47, Jesus refutes any suggestion that he is somehow (co-)equal to Almighty GOD. Whose report will you believe?
The words of Christ or the words of his accusers. Think about that very slowly.

And finally, Jesus said to His disciples, “I will be with you alway, even unto the end of the age” You and I as Christians have God within us and the Word of God {JESUS} Is within us also and it is the HOLY SPIRIT that brings into remembrance all that we have been taught by the Word {JESUS} of GOD.

Allow me to say a similar thing, worded differently. We indeed have GOD in us via His Spirit.
We ought to allow the word of God and Christ dwell in us richly. [Col 3:16] Christ is indeed with us via the spirit of GOD.
(Gal 4:6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
But please note ... Jesus is the word of GOD made flesh. God’s word embodied so to speak. He speaks the very words of GOD Himself.
GOD’s word(s) is GOD’s own word(s). And Jesus is Jesus, the man who speaks the words of GOD. Note the distinction. You can’t just substitute or equate Jesus every time ‘Word of GOD’ is mentioned. There are still two entirely different subjects/things.

God is manifested in 3 essences and each are complimentary of each other, it is the breath of God {HOLY GHOST} that raised the Body of Christ. ...
Furthermore it is written: Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:2 In comparison to What the author John had clearly wrote: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Now how hard can is it to understand this verse my friend? If the Word is God and the Word became flesh, is it not also God?

1) The Bible does not speak of God being manifested in 3 essences or GOD being 3 essences - you will find no verse in Scripture that states that!

2) The Body of Christ was not raised from the dead. It was ‘the man Christ Jesus’ that indeed was raised from the dead!! I keep picking up these dualistic overtones, as if you trying to make Christ, somehow ‘two’; that is, he is Body & ‘something else’??? This dualism has its roots in Gnosticism, Platonism and Greek/Roman philosophy.

NO! The scriptures speak of the resurrection of the DEAD not the resurrection of the body!!
The same goes for Jesus of Nazareth. The scriptures speak of the resurrection of Jesus NOT the resurrection of his body.
HE was killed. HE was slain. HE died. HE was buried. HE was raised from [among] the dead by GOD Almighty. HE now possesses immortality. We ought to speak the language of scripture. Scripture speaks of the raising up of human beings not bodies. Granted ... in the First Resurrection, those who are raised from the dead will be clothed with immortality. However, it is the ‘whole man’ that dies ... therefore, it is the ‘whole man’ that shall be raised from the dead. To use technical language, the Bible speaks of humans as being ”a psychosomatic unity of body and spirit”. The same goes for Jesus of Nazareth.

3) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, ...
Note, it was in THESE LAST DAYS that GOD had spoken unto us by [a] Son and NOT BEFORE!! GOD prior to this had spoken via the prophets, via visions, via similitudes, etc [Hosea 12:10, Num 12:6-8] but it wasn’t until THESE LAST DAYS that he spoken directly THROUGH His Son. Why? Because His Son did not exist! He wasn’t born yet! It’s that simple. You would think this verse alone should end any discussion about a pre-existent Son of God.

4) ... whom he hath appointed heir of all things, …THROUGH whom also he made the ages; the word ‘by’ is the Greek word ’dia’ as mentioned above.
The word ‘worlds’ is actually the plural of the Greek word ‘aion’ which means ‘age’. GOD appointed Jesus His Son to be heir of all things (cp. Psa 2:8 ) THROUGH and for whom he made the ages, hence Jesus will be the ‘father of the age to come’. GOD made the ages [Heb 11:3] with His Son in view, however, it wasn’t until the fulness of times [Gal 4:4] before His Son was born.

5) You asked ”If the Word is God and the Word became flesh, is it not also God?” NO! Because the word ‘God’ as in the ‘word was God’ is being used adjectively. It is being used to DESCRIBE GOD’s word. (The Greek text actually reads, “god/theos was the word”)
John was a monotheistic Jew. He was not presenting ‘another being’ alongside GOD who was himself GOD!
No. That is ditheism. John was no trinitarian or binitarian. He was a ONE GOD Believer.
John was simply paraphrasing what the Hebrew Bible already says about the ‘making of all things’

• (Gen 1:1) In the beginning God created the heaven and
  the earth. 3 And God said, …
• (Psa 33:6) By the word of YAHWEH were the heavens
  made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
• (Psa 33:9) For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
• (Psa 148:5) … for he commanded, and they were created.
• (Amos 9:6, 5:8 ) … he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: YAHWEH is his name:

John 1:1-3 is about GOD’s [spoken] word! IT was ‘with GOD’ i.e. and IT was ‘God’ i.e. GOD’s word totally expressed GOD. GOD’s word is His Self-Expression. IT totally expresses GOD.
As a matter of fact, the majority of the English Bibles before the KJV, that
is from Tyndale’s original translation onwards (e.g. Tyndale’s Bible, the
Bishop’s Bible, the Great Bible, the Geneva Bible, etc) all translated John 1:1-3 using ‘it’ not ‘him’ e.g.

• Tyndale (1525.)In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God: and God was that Word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing: that made it.
• Tyndale New Testament (1530.)In the beginnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. The same was in the beginnynge with God. All thinges were made by it, and with out it, was made nothinge, that was made.
• In 1537, John Rogers (using the pseudonym “Thomas Matthew”) published a translation based largely on Tyndale’s, which became known s Matthew’s Bible. He used “it” instead of “him” in John 1:3.
• Great Bible (1539), this was a revised edition of Matthew’s Bible prepared by Miles Coverdale, uses “it” instead of “him.”
• Geneva Bible (1560.)In the beginning was the Worde, and the Worde was with God and that Worde was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, & without it was made nothing that was made.

That is, Tyndale and others (although they all were no doubt trinitarians), recognized the fact, that John 1:1-3 is talking about GOD’ word, not a person, and translated John 1:1-3 as such.

A word is an ‘it’ not a him.

Sadly, trinitarian-induced bias prevailed, and from the KJV onwards, our
English bibles have ‘him’ in verse 3. However, this does not change the fact that John is speaking about GOD’s mighty word, His spoken word, through which all things have been made. In the fulness of time, GOD’s word became flesh in the person of JESUS CHRIST.
JESUS CHRIST is what the word of GOD became!

Let me sum this up with a quote from

Indeed to be a “Son of God” one has to be a being who is not God! ... It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John’s Gospel to read it as if it said: “In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God and the Son was God.”

I can supply some URL links that go into more detail about these topics if
you so wish.

Even if I were to explain it to a muslim they would have the exact same
response as yours, and furthermore do not believe that Jesus is God just as you say it, no offense my friend I am simply expressing myself in all honesty.
Furthermore That is the same belief which the muslims also uphold, they cannot believe God can die, God did not die ...

Comparing me with muslims, is neither here or there. As Jesus asked, what is written in the law? How readest thou? [Luke 10:26]
The Scriptures teach that GOD is spirit, GOD is not a man, GOD is eternal, GOD is immortal, He alone possesses immortality inherently; GOD is invisible, GOD cannot lie, and the list goes on ... The Bible clearly does NOT teach that GOD can die much less become a man.
It’s just a shame that their isn’t a lot more right-minded, right-doctrinated Christians around to teach the muslims, the truth of the word instead of wasting valuable time trying to convince them of a GOD-MAN doctrine and a triune God doctrine, which neither the prophets, apostles or the Messiah ever spoke about.
It’s real shame.
BTW I am no muslim; neither do I condone their doctrines. I see them in as much error as those who worship a triune GOD that the Scriptures do not speak of.
What was it that someone once said? ... Ah yes ...

Anyone who can worship a Trinity and insist that his religion is monotheistic can believe anything”

[adampastor]

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Can you kill the soul of God? If God became man and the body died, how then is God dead if His soul remains?

Classic GNOSTIC DUALISM!! Plato and Justin Martyr would be proud.
To begin with, your question ... Can you kill the soul of God? If God
became man and the body died, how then is God dead if His soul remains?
GOD did not become a man so this is a non-starter anyway! Also when one dies, both BODY & SOUL dies. BODY & SOUL is MORTAL! SOULS DO NOT REMAIN!
Jesus was no Platonist. None of the GOD-fearing Jews were. The Bible teaches that ‘man’ is ”a psychosomatic unit.” The Bible does NOT teach that man is made up of a mortal body and an immortal soul. This is Platonism. And the platonic church fathers and Hellenistic (Greek-thinking) theologians of the early centuries read these philosophies INTO the scriptures and propagated it in their pseudo-Christian doctrines/leaven.
Here are a few quotes to make my point … the emphasis is mine in each case. :-

Human nature is not a dichotomy - a body of mortal flesh and a deathless soul, as in some philosophies, but rather a unity of body and spirit, an animated body…This view is expressed classically in Genesis 2, according to which the Lord God infused ‘spirit’ (life force) into a lump of clay and ‘it became a living being.’ The Hebrew word should not be translated ‘soul,’ if that means an immortal essence, but rather ’person’ or ‘self.’ The self is a unity of body and spirit, a psychosomatic unity…In this view, death must be taken seriously…Death is a total event - there is no part of human nature, such as an immortal soul, that is untouched.”

“In spite of the use of such words as flesh, spirit, and soul, the OT
conceived of the human being as a unity and not as a composite of different principles. H. Wheeler Robinson observed in a classic remark that the Greeks thought of an incarnate spirit and the Israelites thought of an animated body…The Hebrew nephesh has usually been mistranslated ‘soul’ - introducing an idea that is foreign to the OT. When Yahweh breathes the spirit, the human being becomes a living nephesh (2:7). ‘Person’ or ‘self’ may be the basic, if not the primitive meaning of the word. The blood is sometimes said to be the seat of the nephesh; in such instances nephesh is not the self or the person, but rather life, which is poured out with the blood…In none of these instances is there anything resembling the ‘soul’ of Greek and modern [pseudo-Christian] thought. This difference has important corollaries in the biblical idea of survival after death.”

A familiar example of the mutation to which revelation was subjected is
its contamination by the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul. I will briefly recall it. In Jewish thought death is total. There is no immortal soul, no division of body and soul. Paul’s thinking is Jewish in this regard. The soul belongs to the “psychical” realm and is part of the flesh. The body is the whole being. In death, there is no separation of body and soul. The soul is as mortal as the body. But there is a resurrection. Out of the nothingness that human life becomes, God creates anew the being that was dead. This is a creation by grace; there is no immortal soul intrinsic to us. Greek philosophy, however, introduces among theologians the idea of the immortal soul. The belief was widespread in popular religion and it was integrated into Christianity. But it is a total perversion. ...
This idea completely contaminates biblical thinking, gradually replaces the affirmation of the resurrection, and transforms the kingdom of the dead into the kingdom of God.

The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (1 Cor. 15; Phil. 3:21).
This resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body. Paul speaks of the resurrection not “of the body” but “of the dead.” This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man . . . Thus [in traditional Christian teaching] the original biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic Gnostic dualism. The New Testament idea of the resurrection which affects the whole man has had to give way to the immortality of the soul. The Last Day also loses its significance, for souls have received all that is decisively important long before this. Eschatological tension is no longer strongly directed to the day of Jesus’ Coming. The difference between this and the Hope of the New Testament is very great.

Strange as this sounds in some ears, the Bible knows nothing of the
immortality of the soul separable from the body. It knows only of a resurrection of the total man from the dead.Man in the Bible is a psychosomatic unity, and as such he passes through death to the resurrection and the judgment to the fulfillment, from faith through death and resurrection to sight.
This makes all speculations about a place of the departed spirits absolutely futile.

And the list goes on … as more and more investigate the scriptural teaching of ‘body and soul’.
Sadly, it was through this platonic doctrine of ‘the immortal soul’ that the
very doctrine of ‘the pre-existent person known as the Logos’ actually found it roots! And of course, Platonists such as Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria and Origen used the book of John (esp. Chapter 1) to propagate this Hellenistic philosophy, which has you see, is still with us in modern times.

Back to the Hebrew Scriptures and away with Greek philosophy.

Has for the killing of souls ... well souls DO DIE ... you can indeed kill a soul!

Context! Context! It’s all about Context!

The word ‘soul’ in the Scriptures (nephesh in the Hebrew Bible {Strong’s 5315}, psuche in the NT {Strong’s 5590}) is used predominantly to denote three things …

1) An actual creature (man or animal), esp. a living creature. Synonym for person.

2) The very life(-force) of a creature ... One’s life

3) As a synonym for YOU, YOURSELF … One’s Self
Hence, instead of saying I am in despair ... one would say ‘my soul is in
despair’; instead of saying ‘I am very happy ... one would say ‘my soul is very happy’. (Compare Psa 42:11 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? i.e. David was [cast] down, he was disquieted. OR Mat 26:38 My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: i.e. Jesus of Nazareth was in turmoil, he was exceeding sorrowful)

Context determines how nephesh/psuche is used.

For examples of No. 1 we have ...

• Souls = human beings and animals, especially in the sense of them being alive
• (Gen 1:21,24) And God created great whales, and every living creature/nephesh that moveth 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature/nephesh after his kind …
• (Gen 2:7) And YAHWEH God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul/nephesh.
• (Gen 2:19) … and whatsoever Adam called every living creature/nephesh, that was the name thereof.
• (Gen 9:9-10, 12, 16) And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10 And with every living creatur/nephesh that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature/nephesh that is with you, for perpetual generations: 16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature/nephesh of all flesh that is upon the earth.
• ‘SOUL=PERSON’ (7 persons/souls Gen 46:25; 70 souls/persons Exo 1:5; 3000 persons/souls Acts 2:41; etc) It wasn’t 3000 non-corporeals that were baptized. NO! It was 3000 persons i.e. 3000 souls! See also Acts 27:37, Gen 12:5, etc
• Souls live! Souls die! [Ezek 18:4,20 ] Souls are slain/killed. [Ezek 13:19, Num 31:19,35:30,etc] Souls are ‘cut off’ [Exo 31:14, Lev 22:3, Num 19:20,etc] The scriptures speak of DEAD SOULS/nephesh! The KJV translators obscured this fact! However, the
  fact remains that the Scriptures speak of SOULS dying and speaks of SOULS BEING DEAD and speaks of SOULS being corporeal! Right now, THE DEAD PERSONS/SOULS ARE DEAD & SLEEP IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH!
• (Ezek 18:4,20) … the soul/nephesh that sinneth, it shall die.
• (Lev 19:28 ) Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the
  dead/nephesh...
• (Lev 21:1) ... There shall none be defiled for the dead/nephesh among his people:
• (Lev 21:11) Neither shall he go in to any dead body/nephesh ...
• (Lev 22:4) ... And whoso toucheth any thing that is unclean by the dead/nephesh ...
• (Num 5:2) ... and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead/nephesh
• (Num 6:6) All the days that he separateth himself unto YAHWEH he shall come at no dead body/nephesh
• (Num 19:11) He that toucheth the dead body/nephesh of any man
  ...
• (Num 19:13) Whosoever toucheth the dead body/nephesh of any man that is dead ...
• (Num 19:16) And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body/nephesh ...
• (Num 31:19) ... whosoever hath killed any person/nephesh, and whosoever hath touched any slain ...
• (Num 35:30) Whoso killeth any person/nephesh ...
• (Josh 20:9) ... whosoever killeth any person/nephesh at unawares ...

Et Cetera

For examples of No. 2 we have ...

• Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Greek ”psuche” - life) or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (Greek ”psuche” - life).
• (John 13:37) Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life/psuche for thy sake.
• (Acts 20:24) But none of these things move me, neither count I my life/psuche dear unto myself …

Et Cetera

For examples of No. 3 we have ...

• Numbers 23:10 … Let me die ( original, “let my soul” ) the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!
• Esther 4:13 Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself ( original, “soul” ) …
• Luke 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou has much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, [and] be merry. (He is talking to him-self).

Et Cetera


So, it is not so much that you have ‘a soul’ it is rather ... ‘you are a soul’ ... to save a soul is to save someone ... a dead soul is a dead person ...
The Hebrew Scriptures indeed speak of SOULS/NEPHESH being touched and being dead! The same word ‘nephesh’ is synonymous with ‘self’ and ‘your life’.Therefore again, yet another proof that the Scriptures teach that ‘THE SOUL’ is MORTAL!

When ONE DIES! = They die = SOUL DIES!
When ONE DIES! = HIMSELF/HERSELF DIES = SELF DIES = SOUL DIES.
When ONE DIES! = Their life ends = Their SOUL ends.
When ONE DIES! = Their life ceases = Their SOUL ceases.

The scriptures do NOT teach that we are dichotomous or trichotomous.The scriptures teach that we are a ‘psychosomatic whole’The whole man/soul dies ... the whole man/soul shall rise again at the last day!The Scriptures clearly teach that the Nephesh/Soul is MORTAL!

However, as you see commonly in the Hebrew Bible; for emphasis, terms such as body, soul, spirit, bone, marrow, etc are used poetically and metaphorically to denote ‘the whole being, the whole PERSON’. Hence, to love GOD with your all the scriptures would exhort us to love GOD with

• with all thine heart,
• and with all thy soul,
• and with all thy mind,
• and with all thy strength

.... Deut 6:5, Matt 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27. These verses are not giving us a biology lesson! They are not splitting up man into composite parts! NO! It is telling us to love GOD with everything. Hebrews 4:11 isn’t a biology lesson. NO! It is poetically and metaphorically saying that the word of GOD can get to the very intent of man’s heart … that there is nothing in man that cannot be touched or affected by GOD’s word.
1 Thess 5:23 interprets itself. Paul is praying that GOD would sanctify the
saints TOTALLY & WHOLLY... their entire being. He emphasizes this by using the terms, whole spirit, soul & body;


Neither David nor Jesus was saying that some ethereal, immortal part of them was cast down, disquieted or exceedingly sorrowful in Psalms 42:11 and Matthew 26:38. No! David was saying that he was cast down and disquieted. Jesus was saying that he was exceedingly sorrowful.

Context! Context! It’s all about Context!

Hence Matthew 10:28. Jesus was no Platonist. He was no Gnostic. He most definitely did not adhere to the platonic doctrine of a part of man that lives on after the body dies. That doctrine is pagan and not scriptural. So Matthew 10:28 is poetically and metaphorically saying ...
“Don’t fear them that are able to kill you but are not able to kill you totally so that you could never be resurrected; rather fear HIM who is able to DESTROY and ANNIHILATE YOU TOTALLY (hence the expression ‘body and soul’) in Gehenna ... the lake of fire”


Souls are dying daily ... Souls are being killed daily. That is, men, women
and children are dying daily. However, there will be a future resurrection of the just and the unjust.
ALL shall be raised. Some to life in the age to come and immortality. Some to contempt, judgment and shame in that age. [Dan 12:2] Some will forever be with the Lord, while others will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Jesus was saying nothing different than what the prophets of old had already said. They weren’t Platonists and neither was Jesus. Jesus was warning us to fear GOD and not man. To fear GOD His Father who is able to destroy & annihilate us totally with no hope of ever coming back.
In conclusion, I will quote from the

Matt. 10:28 presents God as the one who can cast both body and psyche (soul, life) into Gehenna. The saying posits the unity of the two and negates the idea of the soul’s immortality…God alone controls the psyche, and for those who have true life with him he prepares a new body, just as he destroys both the body and psyche of those who do not have true life with him.

[adampastor]

You must have not read the verse that I wrote: John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. A human being from Heaven is that possible? you might say that He was created in Heaven, AND NO MAN HATH ASCENDED TO HEAVEN BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN?

I indeed did read your comments on John 3:13. For starters, it could simply be the case that Jesus’ words to Nicodemus ends at verse 12; hence it is John’s words and narration from verse 13 onwards whereby he is speaking after the events of the ministry of Christ. That is, the Gospel of John like the other three, are written AFTER the events of Christ’s earthly ministry. They are narrations informing us of the words and actions of Christ, plus retrospective insights including what GOD’s spirit has revealed to these apostolic writers.
Therefore, if verse 13 are the words of John, then John is indeed saying that no man hath ever ascended to Heaven, except for the only man to have come down from Heaven, that is, Jesus, the Son of man, which is currently now (as I John writes) in Heaven.

What did John mean by the phrase ‘come down from Heaven’? What did Jesus mean when he described himself as one who had ‘come down from heaven’?

Well to ‘come down from Heaven’ is a Jewish synonymous statement which means ‘to come from GOD’ or be sent from GOD or to be commissioned/authorized by GOD.

1. The manna :-
   The manna that was given in the wilderness. Did it not indeed come from GOD.
   However, did the Israelites literally see it descend out of Heaven? NO! It no more came out of Heaven anymore than the quails that were rained down! [Psa 78:27]. Yet both items did indeed come from GOD! GOD Almighty provided Israel with them, hence, they came from GOD, and hence, they came from Heaven.
   Likewise, Jesus denotes himself as the Bread of GOD, the Bread from Heaven [John 6:31-33]. In the same sense, that the manna and the quails didn’t literally descend from Heaven, neither did Jesus. In fact, we are told how Jesus came into this world. The scriptures say nothing of him literally descending out of Heaven. NO! Jesus came into this world like every other man who comes into this world [John 1:9] (except of course Adam) … he was born into the world. (John 16:21; John 18:37 … was I born equivalent to came I into the world)
   
   He was conceived/begotten in the womb of Mary ... he was made of a woman. Yet, he was a man sent from GOD! [John 3:17, 3:34, 10:36; Gal 4:4, 1 John 4:9, 14, etc] A man come from GOD! (John 8:42, 13:3, 16:27-28, 3:2, etc; cp. John the Baptist, see John 1:6. John the Baptist didn’t literally descend from Heaven, did he? Yet he was a man sent from GOD)
   
   
2. The Baptism of John :-
   (Mat 21:24-26) And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
   (See also Mark 11:29-32, Luke 20:3-6)
   The term ‘from heaven’ is obviously then a synonymous expression of something (or someone) being ‘OF GOD’
   John’s baptism didn’t literally descend from heaven. NO! John’s baptism was commissioned and ordained OF GOD! Thus, when Jesus speaks of himself as being from Heaven he is stating that he is commissioned and ordained OF GOD!
   
   
3. COMING DOWN FROM GOD :-
   (James 1:17) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
   Again, good gifts don’t literally descend from the presence of GOD. No! James is using the expression ”from above” to mean something being given or sent from GOD the Father. Hence, Jesus speaks of himself, as being ‘from above’ (John 8:23. See also John 3:31, 19:11 for other examples of the usage of this expression.); hence Jesus of Nazareth has been given (John 3:16) and sent from GOD.
   
   We know from the recorded events in the NT, that Jesus of Nazareth did literally ascend to his GOD, to his disciples’ GOD, to his Father, to his disciples’ Father [John 20:17]; therefore John 3:13 is stating that no man has ASCENDED to Heaven, except that ONE APPOINTED MAN, the Son of Man, who came from GOD and was sent of GOD, and who is currently NOW in Heaven with Almighty GOD.
   This man is the man Christ Jesus, the Son of GOD.
   We await his literal descent from Heaven! [Heb 4:14, 1 Thess 1:9-10]

Now ... let’s indeed view John 3:13 as the speech of Christ himself. That is, let us take the words as Jesus’ own words, rather than a later comment by John.
What was Christ saying to Nicodemus?

Jesus spoke of himself in this passage as the Son of Man. As is well known, the title originates in Daniel 7:13 where, 550 years before the birth of Jesus, Daniel saw a vision of the Son of Man in heaven receiving authority to rule with the saints in the future Messianic Kingdom. Jesus used the title Son of Man of himself with the implication that in him was the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel ...It is the title which he specially employed, when he was foretelling to his disciples about the sufferings that were awaiting him (e.g. Mark 8:31, 9:31, Matt 26:24, Mark 9:12, 14:21, etc).

Now let us look at (John 3:14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
This verse accompanies John 3:13, that “no one except the Son of Man has ascended to heaven.”
The conjunction “and” joins John 3:13 and 14 closely. Both sayings appear to illustrate “heavenly things” which are required to happen to the Son of Man in the divine plan.
How then can Jesus have said that the Son “has ascended to heaven”? Simply because this is what had been forecast about him in Daniel.

Following a well-established principle of Hebrew thinking, God’s acts may be said to have happened already, once they are fixed in the divine counsels. The past tense “has ascended” may be explained as a past tense of something already been determined in GOD’s plan/will. Thus ”No one [it is written in the book of Daniel] is destined to ascend to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who [in Daniel’s vision of the future] is in heaven.”

Therefore, when reading John 3:13-14, special reference to Daniel’s prophecy must be taken into account.
The Son of Man is identified with the figure that in the book of Daniel is seen in heaven. He is there not because he is actually alive prior to his birth, but because God has granted Daniel, a vision of the ‘Son of Man’s’ future destiny. At the time of Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven; but the ascension is so certainly prophesied by Daniel that Jesus can say he has ascended, i.e., that
he is destined to do so.

So, in conclusion, then, John 3:13 is a reference to Christ’s future ascension. If we ask where the Son of Man was before, the biblical answer is found in Daniel 7:13. The man Messiah was seen in heaven in a vision of the future which became reality at the ascension (Acts 2:33), when Jesus had been exalted to the right hand of God.
Jesus hadn’t literally descended from heaven and at the time of him talking to Nicodemus, neither had he literally ascended to heaven. Jesus was therefore, speaking in anticipation, of what GOD had ordained via the prophet Daniel, that the Son of Man would ascend to heaven to receive ‘the kingdom of GOD’.
Thus neither David [Acts 2:34] nor any other person had ascended to heaven.
Contrary to much cherished tradition; the patriarchs have not “gone to heaven.”
They are sleeping in their graves awaiting the resurrection of all the faithful [Dan. 12:2, John 5:28-29];

Only the Messiah was destined for that position. Thus Jesus had predicted to Nicodemus that only the Son of Man would ascend to heaven, the same ‘Son of Man’ who had been commissioned and sent of GOD, to suffer many things before entering into his glory.
[Luke 18:31-33, 24:25-26,44-46]

A human being literally from Heaven before the ascension of Christ was indeed impossible. Now since Christ has ascended, it is possible! We await the literal coming of a human being, a man FROM HEAVEN. This man is the man Christ Jesus, the Son of GOD.

• (Heb 4:14) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our
  profession.
• (1 Thess 1:9-10) … how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

[Bushmaster]

BTW I am no muslim; neither do I condone their doctrines. I see them in as much error as those who worship a triune GOD that the Scriptures do not speak of.

So you think... Take this nonsense here;

http://www.christianforums.com/t52285

This is not a Muslim Christian discussion, please move it to the appropriate forum...

[adampastor]

It is written: Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. How can one become almighty?
Is there not only one almighty being?

Exactly! You better believe it. You better believe there is ONLY ONE ALMIGHTY BEING! There is solely ONE Almighty GOD!! And no one can ‘become Almighty’.
Note the ‘Amen’ in verse 7. The salutation concerning Christ ends in verse 7. Verse 8 is the words of GOD the Father, hence, saith the Lord [YAHWEH], which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Don’t be fooled by the red ink.
Verses 8 shouldn’t be red inked at all - it is the Father who is speaking!!
Notice how salutations are worded in the NT :-

• (1 Cor 1:3) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
• (2 Cor 1:2) Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
• (Gal 1:3) Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
• (Eph 1:2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
• (Phil 1:2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
• (Col 1:2) … Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
• (1 Thess 1:1)… Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
• (2 John 1:3) Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

In every case, God our Father is clearly differentiated from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father. The same goes for the opening salutation in the book of Revelation, verses 4-7.
The salutation takes the same form as the ones shown above.
However, John slightly expands on it as compared to those in the epistles;
nevertheless, the ‘Amens’ ought to acts as ‘full-stops’ so to speak, to indicate to the reader when one theme has ended and a new theme or thought is beginning.
Hence,

Verse 4 … Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; …
The phrase ‘from him which is (PRESENT), and which was (PAST), and which is to come (FUTURE)’ is solely used in ref. to YAHWEH GOD Almighty, denoting that He is GOD, past, present and future. It is used in Revelation, as a synonym for Almighty GOD. This expression is equivalent to the meaning of GOD’s name, YAHWEH. It is never used in ref. to Christ or any other person/being other than GOD the Father. [Rev 1:8, 4:8, 11:17, 16:5]That should have been an obvious clue that the Son is not being spoke of here in Rev 1:4.

Verse 5 … And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Verse 6 … The salutation concerning the Messiah continues. Then ‘Amen’

Verse 7 … Seeing that we await Christ’s coming and GOD is obviously
invisible, the context clearly shows that this verse is a continuation of the
salutation about the Messiah. However, John ends it ”Even so, AMEN”

Therefore from verse 8, we read the words of Almighty GOD.
Sadly, the only reason why many think that Jesus is speaking here is because the trinitarian-biased printers red-inked verse 8. But these are not the words of the Son. These are
the words of the Father.
One only needs to see how the expressions Almighty/Pantokrator and ‘which is, and which was, and which is to come’ are used elsewhere in the NT to clearly see that it is solely the Father being spoken of here.
That’s what proper Bible Study is all about. Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture.

You hold some very strong arguments here my friend

Thanks! However, any strength to my arguments comes from the strength of allowing Scripture to speak for itself!
The scriptures clearly denote

1) That there is solely ONE ALMIGHTY BEING, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, namely YAHWEH, the ONE GOD, the Father. [Isa 44:24, 45:11-12, 42:5, 40:28, Mal 2:10, 1 Cor 8:4, 6]

2) And that there is solely ONE MAN who has been ordained and appointed to be anointed and exalted above all his fellows [Heb 1:9, Psa 45:7]; even to the point that this MAN would be exalted higher than the angels; even to the point, whereby he can be seated at the right hand of the power of the ONE GOD Himself; this MAN has been made ‘Lord of all’ by the ONE GOD.
Hence he is Lord and Christ; this MAN is Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the Father.
[Psa 110.1, 45:7, Acts 2:36 10.36, 17:31, Dan 7.13-14 1 Cor 8:6]

Therefore, any verses that ‘appear’ to contradict the clear message of these two facts must be interpreted in the light of the majority of scriptures. This is proper Bible study for GOD’s word does not contradict itself.

There is ONE GOD, the Father.
There is ONE Lord, the man Christ Jesus.


Conc. John 21:17 - see above

Conc. Micah 5:2 - see above

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:57-58

I have dealt with John 8:58 elsewhere on the Quran and Bible debate forum.
See my post in http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... 28&start=0
posted Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:58 am.
Scorpion has promised to answer me concerning my refutation. I’m stilling waiting ...

How do you compare He {JESUS} to the first man {ADAM} if HE existed before Abraham but also before Adam, …

Easy! He didn’t! Adam was of course the first man that ever existed ... Jesus the Messiah is his descendant. [Luke 3:38] To deny that is to both deny the word of GOD and to deny that Jesus is a man at all!! (Note 1 John 4:3, 2 John 7)
Jesus was foreordained in the counsel of GOD long before the foundation of the world but he did not existed until these last days.

(1 Pet 1:20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(1 Cor 15:46-47) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Jesus is the second Adam destined in the future to be the man who arrives from heaven to raise the dead. “The Last Adam… the second man is the Lord from heaven” (I Cor. 15:45, 47). “From heaven we expect a Savior” (Phil. 3:20).
How terribly confusing it would be to say that the second Adam really preceded the first Adam. Jesus is the final Adam. He comes into existence after the first Adam. That last Adam, Jesus, is the heavenly one who descends at the Second Coming from his heavenly session at the right hand of God, where he is currently the Man Messiah Jesus, in contrast to the One God, his Father (I Tim. 2:5).

It is written that the very words {JESUS} of God formed Adam from the earth, HE {JESUS} existed before Adam because HE created Adam. The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the very Word of
God and without it {THE WORD} nothing was made, including the First man Adam.

Huh! What Bible do you read? He, Jesus existed before Adam because he created Adam! Huh! Where did you read that!
OK! Let me state the obvious ... It is written that the ONE GOD Himself made Adam from the earth

• (Gen 1:27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
• (Gen 2:7) And YAHWEH God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
• (Gen 5:1-2) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
  (COMPARE (Mat 1:1) The book of the generation [genesis, the very same Greek word as used in Gen 5:1 of the Septuagint/LXX!!], of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.)
• (Mark 10:6 Jesus said) But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
• (Mal 2:10) Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? …
• (Isa 45:11-12) Thus saith YAHWEH … 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
• (Psa 100:3) Know ye that YAHWEH he is God: it is he that hath made us …
• (Isa 64:8 ) But now, YAHWEH, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
• (Zec 12:1) … YAHWEH, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

YAHWEH GOD existed before Adam ... He alone made Adam. Moses states this [Gen 1:27, 2:7, 5:1-2]. Jesus states this [Mark 10:6]. Remember, Jesus warned, (John 5:47) But if ye believe not his [Moses’] writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Jesus said GOD, his Father, created man. [Mark 10:6] Jesus NEVER EVER said that he did it. Neither did any of his apostles teach any such thing. Pleaaassse beware of the leaven of trinitarianism ... it is not of Christ, it is of the rudiments of this world [Col 2:8]

Yes, without the word of GOD was not one thing made. [Psa 33:6,9, 148:5] However, it was not until the fulness of time, that GOD’s word was made flesh in the person of Jesus the Messiah. John is in no way contradicting Luke and Matthew who speak of the beginning (genesis) & conception of Jesus the Messiah. They have no idea of a ‘personal literal pre-existence’. Jesus no more pre-existed his creation anymore than Adam pre-existed his!! And as you rightly said ”without It {THE WORD} nothing was made, including the First man Adam.”
Well this includes the Last Adam, Jesus the Messiah as well!!

How is Jesus a new Adam if Jesus existed before Adam? And you also said that God made a sinless man, which once again does not quite make sense because He {JESUS} was not made but HE {JESUS} MADE ADAM.

Omega, by you repeatingly saying ”Jesus existing before Adam” or repeatingly saying, ”Jesus made Adam” isn’t going to make it true!
Jesus said that the ONE GOD, the Father, the God of the Hebrews, made Adam.
In fact no prophet of GOD ever said that someone other than the ONE GOD and Father of Mal 2:10 ever created Adam or anything else! Jesus repeated the same truthful message of the Hebrew Bible ... that is, ONE GOD, the Father, the Lord of Heaven and Earth [Matt 10:25, Luke 10:24, cp. Acts 17:24] is the Creator of man and all things.
Luke who has no idea of a pre-existence of Jesus presents Jesus has being a descendant of David, a descendent of Judah, a descendant of Jacob, a descendant of Isaac, a descendant of Abraham, a descendant of Adam, who himself is [the Son] OF GOD. [Luke 3:31-38]

To say that Jesus existed before Adam, is to make nonsense of Luke (as well as Matthew’s) words. It’s to make the genealogies of Christ meaningless and pointless.

Whose report Omega, are you going to believe? ...
Luke’s or Origen’s
Matthew’s or Athanasius’
The apostles’ or the so-called Church Fathers’ ?


I can supply some URL links that go into more detail about the topics if you so wish.

[adampastor]

Omega is right, Jesus Christ existed before Adam. You say Jesus was purely a human like us?

YES I DO!
I guess it’s because I believe the scriptures ...
(Heb 2:14-18 ) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of THE SAME; … 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Granted Jesus was without sin, however, Jesus was neither deity nor angelic.
He was flesh and blood. He was as human as Adam was ... hence he is the Last Adam.
Why else would Paul juxtapose and compare Adam with Jesus if Jesus was indeed truly not a man!! Hmm!

Jesus Christ was not created by two sex cells, so He was not of Mankind like us.

If Jesus Christ was not mankind like us because he was not created by two sex cells, THAN WHAT ABOUT ADAM!!
Neither was he created by two sex cells ... wasn’t he mankind like us (the same goes for Eve)?? And how about his descendants, you and I, what does that make us, if Adam was not mankind??
Fetch my point?
Adam was mankind. We are Adamkind ... now there is a ‘new man’ in town in whom his image we need to be conformed to. [Rom 8:29, 1 Cor 15:49] This ‘new man’ is the man Christ Jesus.
The same GOD who made a sinless man out of the dust of the earth, the same GOD who made a sinless woman out of the rib of this man, is more than able to make a sinless man out of the seed of a woman ... this GOD did ... this sinless man’s name is Jesus!

Jesus was not created in the womb, His soul always existed and He just transcended into this world through Mary. He was not related to any human being because He in His essence was God and He was only a human being only for a short time on earth.

Classic Platonism ... Classic Gnosticism
Let me tell you a little about the Gnostics whom John had to refute in his
epistles, 1 John & 2 John.
They believed that the flesh hence the body was inherently evil. Only the spirit was pure.
Hence they did not believe that Jesus was related to any human being. They taught that Jesus only appeared to be human! [Hence the term, docetic] He couldn’t ACTUALLY be a man ... He couldn’t ACTUALLY be a human being ... He couldn’t ACTUALLY have come in the flesh (i.e. be human) ... He couldn’t essentially be human ... otherwise he would be inherently evil seeing that he is ‘of the flesh’ i.e. human.
Hence, John wrote …

• (1 John 4:3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
• (2 John 1:7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

What does it mean to recognize and acknowledge that Jesus has ”come in the flesh?” Since the phrase ”come in the flesh” hardly one current in contemporary English, let me quote 2 John 7 from

Many deceivers have gone into the world who do not accept that Jesus came as a human being. Here is the deceiver and the antichrist.

To deny that Jesus was human like us is to border on the leaven/doctrine of the Gnostics!

Beware ‘Believer’ beware!

Because of their leaven/doctrine, the Gnostics went on to say that at the most, Jesus is the flesh/body, the Christ is the spirit (hence there is a distinction between the two!) ...‘the Christ’ came upon Jesus to enable him to do what he did and at his crucifixion, ‘the Christ’ left him in order for the flesh/body {Jesus} to die.
They made a distinction between the body/flesh {Jesus} and the spirit {Christ}, therefore John wrote (1 John 2:22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus IS the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
‘Believer’, just thought you should know these things and above all, acknowledge that the Lord Messiah was indeed human like us (yet without sin) and is now immortalized, at the right hand of GOD his Father.
Also concerning ‘the soul’ … read my above post to Omega, where I discuss the scriptural teaching of the mortality of ‘the soul’

Jesus was not created in the womb

Then you go against his holy disciples, Matthew and Luke, who spoke and wrote by the holy spirit of GOD about the genesis of Jesus in the womb of Mary.
That’s your prerogative.

His soul always existed and He just transcended into this world ...

This is Platonism. Such a statement would make the philosopher Plato proud!
Did the Apostle Paul not say (Col 2:8 ) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
It was Plato who taught that there is a part of man that is immortal and pre-exists (and always exist) ... the soul
The Hellenists and Greek fathers adopted his leaven and taught that there was a being alongside the Father who created all things ... this being ... this demiurge ... is called the Logos.
This being called the Logos came through the womb of Mary.
This is age-old Platonism and Gnosticism.
The heretical Marcion tainted by Gnostic leaven, taught that Jesus passed through his mother, as water through a pipe, into the world; hence Jesus was not OF Mary according to the flesh.

Somewhat alarming is the fact that the Gnostic Valentinus as well as the church father Justin Martyr both speak of the Son coming through (dia) his mother, rather than coming from her (Matt. 1:16) and originating in her (1:20). The departure from the Bible on the crucial issue of Jesus’ identity sowed the seeds of the interminable wrangles over the Trinity and Incarnation which followed.

This ‘kind of Jesus’ is another Jesus that the Apostle warned about, (2 Cor 11:4) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached … ye might well bear with him.

Beware ‘Believer’ beware! Athanasius, the so-called Church fathers, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Valentinus (who incidentally supplied the keyword homoousios) and all who have any thing to do with the doctrine of trinitarianism, preached ‘a Jesus’ which the apostles DID NOT PREACH!!!

.... only a human being only for a short time on earth.

Oh really, than why did the Apostle Paul make the following remarks well
after the ascension of Christ? ...
(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(Acts 17:30-31) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
(Rom 5:15) … the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(1 Cor 15:47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

[adampastor]

Those verses are stating the characteristics of man which God does not have because He is too Holy. It is not saying that God cannot send His only begotten Son to die for our sins. Also, those characteristics which God says He doesn’t have but man does, Christ did not have those
characteristics either. So what does that tell you?

It is not saying that God cannot send His only begotten Son to die for our sins.
Amen! In fact [Num 23:19, Job 9:32, Hosea 11:9] have nothing to with the Son!!
I most definitely believe that GOD sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins.
You are right; GOD does not have these characteristics. Therefore, GOD CANNOT even be tempted to lie or commit any other sin.
However a man can. And a man was sent to be tempted in all points.Although this man was so tempted, he DID NOT succumb to temptation and sin. This man is Jesus of Nazareth.
Although he committed no sin, indeed he had the same power of choice, as did Adam. He had the characteristics, as you put it, to do exactly as his progenitor, the man Adam, had done. However, where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded. Otherwise, the temptations would be pointless. It was the spirit of GOD, which drove Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. [Mark 1:12] If it was IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to be tempted to sin, the whole episode would be pointless and meaningless.

So what does that tell me, Alpha? It tells me that Jesus is qualified without doubt, to be touched with our infirmities [Heb 4:15, 2:18]; it tells me that Jesus is truly worthy to be exalted by GOD to be Lord of all.
It tells me that he is my brother as well as my Lord. It tells me that he is worthy. It tells me that he is the Holy One of GOD.
And above all, it tells me, that to teach that Jesus is somehow GOD or a ‘god-man’ demeans and lessens what Christ actually did and went through for us ... this I will not do!
That is what it tells me!

[adampastor]

I must mention this verse which shows the triune God at work.
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matthew 3:16,17
Do you see what is going on here Adam? The SON is baptized. The HOLY SPIRIT descends. THE FATHER speaks.

I certainly can read and see what is going on ... it says nothing about a triune God at work! Nope! The scripture portray no such thing. What you clearly see here is the ONE GOD of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob; the GOD and Father of Jesus of Nazareth; anointing the man Jesus of Nazareth, GOD’s son, with holy spirit and power; hence Jesus is the Anointed One, The Christ.
Peter said (Acts 10:38 ) How [1] God anointed [2] Jesus of Nazareth with [3] the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Peter said nothing about GOD being 3 in 1 i.e. triune
Isaiah said (Isa 61:1) [1] The spirit of [2] Adonai YAHWEH is upon me [3 The Messiah]; because YAHWEH hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
No Jewish reader of Isaiah went away after reading this verse, believing that GOD therefore must be 3 in 1 i.e. triune

Back to Matthew 3:16-17

There you are ... ONE GOD anointing a man with His holy spirit. Why does that make GOD triune?
There is nothing triune about that! Jesus isn’t the first man to be anointed
with GOD’s spirit. However he is the man who has been anointed above his fellows ... as John said Jesus was given not the Spirit without measure [John 3:34, Heb 1:9, Psa 45:7]

Agreed there are 3 elements at work here...
1) GOD
2) His Son, a man, namely, Jesus of Nazareth
3) The holy spirit of GOD
But this does not make GOD triune!
I am sure there are cases in Scripture where there are 4 or 5 elements at work.
Would that make God quadriune or quintune?? LOL

(1 Cor 15:27-28 ) ... That is a difficult expression and has been misunderstood to suggest that the apostle Paul subordinated the Son to the Father.

What is so difficult about this expression? A child can understand it! It may be difficult to those who adhere to a doctrine that neither Jesus, Paul nor the rest of the Apostles taught; but the early church had no difficulty with it. The so-called Church fathers may have had difficulty ... Athanasius may have done ... but the early church hadn’t.

It’s plain.
Jesus the Son of the Father was subordinate to GOD in his earthly ministry.
Yes, he has highly been exalted. However, no matter how high GOD has exalted him, GOD will always be his GOD and Father. Christ will always be subordinate to Him.
GOD has no equal - nothing has changed that! Every ‘being’, whether human or angelic, mortal or supernatural, every ‘being’ is subordinate to the ONE GOD. YAHWEH has no equals.

Agreed, Jesus functionally represents GOD ... He is GOD’s agent ... however that does not make him (co-)equal to GOD.
As I said before, GOD has made Jesus, Lord of all, however GOD is NOT subject to anyone, including Jesus. It is clearly the other way round [1 Cor 15:27-28, John 10:29, 14:28]

Of course, 1 Cor 15:27-28 is talking about the Son’s subordination to the Father.
It’s not difficult – it’s easy!!

(1 Cor 15:27-28 ) ... At this present time the administration of the messianic kingdom is given to the Son, However, at the end of the messianic kingdom, this role will be returned to the Father that God may be all in all.

Hmmm. Rather at the end of the millennium, that is, when all the his enemies have been made a footstool and all mankind has been judged accordingly, then the Messianic Kingdom will indeed be handed to GOD.
However, the Messianic Kingdom has NOT yet arrived! The Messianic Kingdom, the Kingdom of GOD & Christ, will not be inaugurated and administered until Christ comes!
It is THEN that the apostles and all those that are Christ’s at his coming/parousia [1 Cor 15:23] will reign and administer with Christ. [2 Tim 2:12, Rev 5:9-10, 20:6, Matt 19:28]

• (Dan 7:13-14) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the
  Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
• (Luke 19:11-27) And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman [i.e. JESUS] went into a far country [i.e. HEAVEN] to receive for himself a kingdom [i.e. THE KINGDOM OF GOD], and to return. [i.e. HIS COMING/PAROUSIA] 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom … 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. … 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
• (Acts 1:6-7) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. …
• (Acts 3:21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
• (Mat 19:28 ) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
• (Mat 25:31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: … 25 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

At the Coming/Parousia of Christ, it is then that Christ will inaugurate the Kingdom of GOD upon the earth. Daniel foretelled how ‘the Son of Man’ will come and received the Kingdom from GOD Almighty (the Ancient of Days). However, Jesus’ disciples, although believing that Jesus was indeed the King Messiah, they were under the incorrect assumption, that the Kingdom of GOD was to immediately appear.
Hence Christ gave the parable as recorded in Luke 19:11ff. Note how the faithful servants received authority to administer over ten and five cities. That is, they were given authority to administer in the nobleman’s kingdom. The Messiah, the Son of Man, of course is the nobleman.
The far country is Heaven, where Jesus is currently at the Right Hand of GOD.
Therefore, AT HIS RETURN, he will come with ‘the Kingdom of GOD’ (i.e. Luke 19:16 when he was returned, having received the kingdom).

• It is THEN and not before that the administration of the messianic kingdom is given to the Son.
• It is THEN and not before that the restoration of all things, the Regeneration will begin.
• It is THEN and not before that Christ will sit upon the promised (currently vacant) throne of David to rule the Kingdom of GOD from its capital city, Jerusalem, the City of the Great King (Ezek 21:25-27; Isaiah 9:7, Matt 5:35, Luke 1:32-33 – note how he gave the parable because he was nigh to Jerusalem, Luke 19:11).
• It is THEN and not before that Christ will inaugurate the Kingdom of GOD upon the earth.

As the writer of Hebrew had said, ... (Heb 2:8 ) … But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Thus, at Christ’s Parousia, this is when we shall literally see all things put under him!

It is written: Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Who is it that liveth? GOD, and you cannot apply that term to Him because He became immortal, then you would have to call everyone at the regeneration they that liveth, and there is only ONE being who was always alive which is better known as He that liveth. As the scriptures declare, God is no the God of the dead, but the God of the Living.

Huh!!! Rev 1:18 is talking about Jesus, the son of GOD. It is not talking
about the Living GOD who is portrayed by John as being seated on the throne [Rev 4:1-3]; who created all things, and for His pleasure they are and were created. [Rev 4:10-11]

First, John sees in Rev 1:13, in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, which should cause us to immediately refer to Dan 7:13 (even here, GOD Almighty, the Ancient of Days, is clearly differentiated from the Messiah). The speaker than identifies himself in Rev 2:18 as the ‘Son of GOD’
It is Jesus the Messiah, the Son of GOD, the Son of man, who is speaking!
So he identifies himself as He who lives, and was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore.
I can’t see you point. GOD his Father is described as the one who liveth for ever & ever [Rev 4:9-10,10:6,15:7], yet he is never described as ‘was dead’.

Pleaseee. In the Book of Revelation, GOD the Father and the Son of the Father are totally and always differentiated. There is simply no need to muddle the two.
GOD is from everlasting to everlasting, hence he was (PAST), he is (PRESENT) and always will be (FUTURE); whilst Jesus who lives was dead! Besides the fact that he had a beginning which the Eternal GOD does not!
The ‘one’ described as ‘he that liveth’ in Rev 1:18, is most certainly Jesus,
the Son of GOD, who incidentally 4 times in Rev 3:12 denotes the fact that the Father is his GOD!
Rev 1:18 is not speaking about GOD at all!
(Incidentally I compared the Greek text of Rev 1:18 with Rev 4:9-10, 10:6, 15:7; conc. the phrase 'liveth'. It is NOT identical. GOD is clearly differentiated from the Son in these verses)

So yes, you COULD describe every resurrected, immortalized saint as ‘they that liveth’; because death will no longer have any dominion over them even as death has no dominion over Christ.

The Greek word for hu(man) is anthropos. The apostles had no problem proclaiming that Jesus is a (hu)man, post-resurrection e.g. (1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man [anthropos] Christ Jesus;
Better yet, the whole concept of it is called anthropomorphism, on occasion the scriptures use expressions that seem to attribute human, physical features to God {fingers, hands, arms, and face} which are called anthropomorphisms.
Because God is spirit and not a body, we know that these expressions do not describe Him physically but are used to help man understand truths concerning God.

Incredible. It’s absolutely incredible how you interpret scripture.
I know about anthropomorphism, but what does that have no do with 1 Tim 2:5???
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
GOD is spirit and not body ... the man Christ Jesus confirms this [John 4.24] whilst talking to the Samaritan woman, face to face.
Jesus the Messiah IS a man [John 1:30, 8:40, 9:11, 10:33, Acts 2:22, 17:31; Rom 5:15, 1 Cor 15:21,47; 1 Tim 2:5]
Paul is simply stating the same thing about Jesus. Jesus may have been made immortal but it doesn’t change the fact that he is a man! Paul is letting us know that there is a mediator between mortal mankind and the eternal GOD who is spirit; this mediator is the first immortalized resurrected man, Messiah Jesus.
1 Tim 2.5 is one of the plainest verses in the NT.
No anthropomorphism involved at all!
In fact, anthropomorphisms are used because GOD is not a man, since as you put it ”Because God is spirit and not a body, we know that these expressions do not describe Him physically but are used to help man understand truths concerning God.”
Therefore, if GOD indeed had become a man AS Jesus of Nazareth or if Jesus of Nazareth were indeed the Body of GOD, there would be no need for anthropomorphisms in the New Testament, would there!!! However, see finger Luke 11:20, face Matt 18:10 (cp. Heb 9:24), hands Luke 23:46, Heb 10:31. (See also Rev 4:1-3.)
Hmmm!!

[adampastor]

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me,
Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. So when was Jesus begotten? the answer to this question is dependant on the word “DAY” God transcends time and lives beyond time, He cannot be limited to a 24-hour day. So this word means an eternal day.

That statement is as contradictory as Origen’s phrase ”eternally begotten”

Psalms 2:7 does not say, “In a day have I begotten thee” but rather THIS DAY! Surely you must see that this is speaking of a specific 24-hour day or at least a specific time ... you can’t turn the expression ‘this day’ into an eternal day! This makes nonsense of language, whether English, Hebrew or Greek.

Anyway, no need to despair ... the Apostle Paul clarifies this totally ... turn your bible to (Acts 13:21-33) And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: …32 And we declare unto you glad tidings,how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

GOD fulfilled his promises by raising up a Saviour, Jesus of Nazareth. Note how the expression ‘raised up’ is used in Scripture – please note: Acts 13:33 is nothing to do with the resurrection. That is dealt with in verse 34 onwards. Please ignore the word ‘again’ in verse 33 – it is not in the Greek text.
Verse 33 simply reads God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

The promise of Acts 13:23, the fulfillment of which is here described [Acts 13:33] has to do with the sending of the Messiah, not his resurrection, for which see v. 34.

The KJV translators added the word ‘again’ to Acts 13:33 giving the false impression that this verse is speaking about the resurrection of Christ, when indeed, it is actually speaking about the event of the birth of Christ being the fulfillment of GOD’s promises!
Acts 13:33 when left alone clearly states that the Son was ‘begotten’ and that there was a time when he was begotten; hence the Son had a beginning. This of course, goes against the trinitarian doctrine of ’an eternally begotten Son, who is the 2nd person of the trinity’ hence the need for some manipulation on the translators’ part. Now, when a translator would ‘add a word’ which is not in the original Greek, they would place it in italics. However, they would not do this consistently i.e. the word AGAIN does not appear in the original Greek of Acts 13.33-37! Its Greek word palin (Strong’s 3825) is simply not there!

Hence what I am saying is this: To sway the reader from the obvious
implications of Acts 13:33, that the Son had a beginning i.e. he was begotten in time on a certain day; the translators added the word AGAIN, therefore causing the reader to read ‘the resurrection’ into the verse.

Now look again at Acts 13:33 without using the word ‘again’, and hopefully you will see that Acts 13:33 is not speaking about the resurrection at all!

The word that does appear in both verse 33&34 is the word 'raise [up]' 'Raise' in reference to mankind, is generally used in the scriptures, in two main contexts:-

1. In the OT & NT, it is generally used to speak of an individual coming into existence, and/or the setting up or exaltation of this individual to a position of leader, king, priest, etc. - and sometimes this is described as being inaugurated by GOD himself
2. Mostly in the NT - speaks of resurrection, raising someone from the dead
   Hence when the NT writers used Greek words for ‘raise’ in the context of the resurrection, they generally qualified its use with additional words equivalent to ’from the dead’ or something similar to make that context obvious.

In the case of Acts 13, Verse 33 is using context 1 i.e. the coming of the Messiah
Verse 34 is using context 2 i.e. his resurrection

Let’s see how the word ‘raise [up]’ is used for context 1:-

In the OT, the following all use the same Hebrew word quwm, Strong’s 6965 - translated raise (up), rear (up),
(a-)rise up, set (up), etc

• (Exo 1:8 ) Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.
• (Deut 18:15) YAHWEH thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken
• (Deut 18:18 ) I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
• (Deut 34:10) And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom YAHWEH knew face to face,
• (Judg 2:16) Nevertheless YAHWEH raised up judges, which delivered them ...
• (Judg 2:18 ) And when YAHWEH raised them up judges , then YAHWEH was with the judge, ...
• (Judg 3:9) And when the children of Israel cried unto YAHWEH, YAHWEH raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb’s younger brother.
• (Judg 3:15) But when the children of Israel cried unto YAHWEH, YAHWEH raised them up a deliverer, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: ...
• (1 Sam 2:35) And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.
  [i.e. Samuel]
• (2 Sam 3:10) To translate the kingdom from the house of Saul, and to set up the throne of David over Israel and over Judah, from Dan even to Beersheba.
• (2 Sam 23:1) Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed [Heb. messiah/mashiach] of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
• (1 Ki 8:20) And YAHWEH hath performed his word that he spake, and I am risen up in the room of David my father, and sit on the throne of Israel, as YAHWEH promised, and have built an house for the name of YAHWEH God of Israel.
  [i.e. Solomon]
• (2 Ki 23:25) And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to YAHWEH with all his heart ... neither after him arose there any like him.[i.e. Josiah]
• (2 Chr 6:10) YAHWEH therefore hath performed his word that he hath spoken: for I am risen up in the room of David my father, and am set on the throne of Israel, as YAHWEH promised, and have built the house for the name of YAHWEH God of Israel.
  [i.e. Solomon]
• (2 Chr 21:4) Now when Jehoram was risen up to the kingdom of his father, he strengthened himself, and slew all his brethren with the sword, and divers also of the princes of Israel.

And the list goes on ... even into the NT; e.g. Acts 2.30; Acts 3:26; Acts 3.22, 7.37 quoting Deut 18:15,18; ... etc

• (Luke 1:68-70) Blessed be YAHWEH God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
• (Acts 13:22-23) And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

You can see how the word ‘raised’ (Heb quwm) is used in this context, especially in regards to the kingdom of Israel, the throne of David, and kings/prophets in general - in this context, it is definitely not speaking of ‘resurrection’ at all!This therefore, is the context, of Paul’s usage of the word ‘raise’ in Acts 13.33!

Let’s look again at Acts 13:33-37 with the word ’again’ removed :-

(Acts 13:32-37) And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised, saw no corruption.

In verse 33, Paul is simply stating that GOD has fulfilled His promise as spoken via David & the prophets, by bringing about ‘the Messiah’ - he was begotten in the fulness of time. Then in verse 34, Paul then speaks about the Messiah’s resurrection.
Hence verse 33 - Messiah’s birth; verses 34-37 - Messiah’s resurrection

Note, GOD did not make a promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David; that he would raised the Messiah from the dead! He made them a promise that through their lineage he would ‘raise up’ i.e. bring into the existence, the Messiah from their lineage.

Yes I know that David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah in Psalms 16; however this Psalm was NOT speaking of the promise concerning the Messiah & David’s throne!

Let’s look again at this promise that was made to David ...

• (2 Sam 7:12-14) And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up [Heb. ruwm] thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. ...
  14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. ... [Cp. Heb 1.5]
• (1 Chr 17:11-14) And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raised up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. ... 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.[Cp. Heb 1.5]
• (Psa 132:11) YAHWEH hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

GOD made an oath to David that of his lineage He would raise up His Son to sit upon David’s throne.
’Raise up’ here, is most definitely being used in the sense that in the fulness of time, a particular ‘son of David’ will come into existence, who will fulfill all the promises that GOD had spoken to David, the patriarchs & the prophets. This son, therefore, will be also GOD’s son.

Jesus of Nazareth confirmed this promise - GOD is his Father - Jesus of Nazareth is GOD’s Son (Heb 1:5). GOD raised him up i.e. Jesus of Nazareth was brought into existence in the fulness of time, to confirm the promises that GOD had made. (Rom 15:8 )

Hence we have verses such as ...

• (Luke 1:32-33) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and YAHWEH God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
• (Acts 2:30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
  Note v.30 is speaking of the coming of the Messiah; verse 31 then quotes Psa 16 in regards to the resurrection
• (Acts 3:25-26) Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
  Note v.26, Messiah was first raised then sent hence the context can’t be speaking of the resurrection!
  
• (Acts 13:23) Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
  Note the parallel usage of the word ‘raised’ in verse 22 in regards to David. (Acts 13:22) And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; …

Therefore, just as in Acts 13.23, where Paul speaks of GOD raising up a Saviour, Jesus the Messiah, from the seed/lineage of David; Paul is repeating the very same thing in Acts 13.33 - in this case he quotes Psa 2.7, which speaks of the day that the Messiah was begotten!

Note what Paul then says in verse 34 ... And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, … Now he speaks of the Messiah’s resurrection, in fulfillment of Isa 55:3 and another Psalm i.e. Psalm 16:10.
The very fact that he says, “concerning that he raised him up from the dead”; he let’s us know that he is changing the context, and is now speaking about the Messiah’s resurrection.

Hence verse 33 was a different context using a different Psalm to bring about a different point i.e. the Messiah has indeed come, just as God had promised! He was born ‘this day’

In conclusion then ...

1. Always remember when reading our English bibles, that they were translated by trinitarians; hence, sometimes they would attempt to place ‘their theology’ into the translation - this happens by sometimes adding a word or using a poorer equivalent English word which more aligned with their theology ... there are many examples of this
2. By adding the word again to raised up Jesus in Acts 13:33, they attempted to give the impression that ‘this day’ was speaking of another day besides the birth of Christ into the world! i.e. it was speaking of his resurrection
   Or as some put it; it was speaking of an eternal day.
3. In fact, in every case of the NT phrase “raise ... again” the word again is not in the Greek text!
4. Note the context, how the word ‘raised’ is being used ... is it speaking of GOD raising someone up i.e. setting someone up for a particular purpose/position or is it speaking of ‘resurrection’?
5. The NT writers would always qualify the word ‘raised’ when it is being used in the context of the resurrection.

Therefore, at a specific time, on a particular day, David was born. Hence, GOD raised him to be King. In like manner, at a specific time in the fulness of time, Jesus, son of Mary, was born. Paul puts it this way: GOD fulfilled His promises, in that, on a specific day, GOD raised up Jesus of Nazareth. Paul quotes Psalms 2:7 showing that ‘that day’ had arrived i.e. the day Jesus was begotten/conceived (Matt 1:20 for that which is begotten in her is of the Holy Ghost; Luke 1:35 begotten of thee shall be called the Son of God) was the day GOD fulfilled His promises.

Omega, Psalms 2:7 most definitely does speak of a specific 24-hour day, the day of Christ’s birth.
Please beware of the leaven of trinitarianism; which makes nonsense of
language and propagates impossible concepts such as ’eternally begotten on an eternal day’

[adampastor]

John 2:22) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. Over 20 times in the NT, after the resurrection of Christ, the Apostles declared that Almighty GOD raised Jesus of Nazareth from the dead; seeing that they believed the word which Jesus had said; they understood what he meant (after his resurrection). Jesus was speaking in a parabolical manner; whilst his enemies may have misunderstood him (as they commonly did e.g. v. 20); his disciples however, after his resurrection understood what he meant! Therefore, they declared that it was GOD Almighty who raised him from the dead. They never taught or preached anywhere that Jesus
literally raised himself from the dead!
Think about it!
I have, and here is what I came up with: The disciples understood that it meant after His resurrection? where does it say that?

(John 2:22) When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Hence this understanding came to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.

And if you would like scriptural proof concerning the deity of the Holy Ghost

No thanks. That’s a non-starter.
GOD is spirit ... GOD is holy.
The holy spirit is simply the spirit of GOD. ’ITS’ not a person or a being alongside GOD the Father. ‘IT’ is the spirit of GOD.

In fact, think about it! How could Jesus raise himself from the dead! He couldn’t - because he was dead!! DEAD MEN DON’T RAISE THEMSELVES!!
How about the Holy Spirit who also is God and that breathed life into the body of Christ!

OK! OK! Let me concede for a few moments to the above statement. Then are you not agreeing that Christ was indeed dead and it took power from another source other than himself in order for Christ to be raised from the dead?
Therefore Christ did NOT raise himself!!
Hmmm.
Nevertheless I would reword it …

How about the holy spirit of GOD breathed life into that dead man who was in Joseph of Arimathaea’s tomb.

The angel didn’t say “it or his body is risen … behold the place where his body was laid.” NO! (Mark 16:6) And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Mary did not say, “I don’t know where they have laid the body of Jesus.” NO! (John 20:2) … saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

And even when his body is specifically mentioned, it reads …
(John 20:12-15) And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord {adoni}, and I know not where they have laid him. 14
And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? (NOT what seekest thou?) She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

Why did the angel and Mary speak in this fashion?
Because a dead person was placed in the tomb, not just a body. A dead person was raised from the dead, not a body! GOD didn’t raise the body of Christ. GOD raised Christ himself from the dead.
It wasn’t a case of the body was in the tomb whilst Jesus was somewhere else (Gnosticism, dualism) NO! It was Jesus Christ in the tomb. It was Jesus himself who was grave-dead. ‘HE’ was dead.
[John 19:33, Acts 25:19, Rev 1:18, 2:8 )

Jesus Christ was himself raised from the dead ...

1. (Acts 2:22-24) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God … 23 Him … ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up …
2. (Acts 2:32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
3. (Acts 3:15) And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
4. (Acts 4:10) … by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead ...
5. (Acts 5:30) THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
6. (Acts 10:38-41) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power … 39 … whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; …
7. (Acts 13:23-30) Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: … 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead:
8. (Acts 13:34-37) And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised, saw no corruption.
9. (Acts 17:31) Because he [GOD] hath appointed a day, in the which he [GOD] will judge the world in righteousness by [THROUGH] that man whom he [GOD] hath ordained; whereof he [GOD] hath given assurance unto all men, in that he [GOD] hath raised him [JESUS] from the dead.
10. (Rom 4:24) … if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
11. (Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
12. (1 Cor 15:15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of GOD that HE raised up Christ: whom HE raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
13. (2 Cor 4:14) Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus …
14. (Gal 1:1) ... Jesus Christ, and GOD THE FATHER, WHO raised him from the dead;
15. (1 Thess 1:9-10) … how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
16. (1 Thess 4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
17. (Heb 13:20) Now the God of peace, that brought from the dead our Lord Jesus …
18. (1 Pet 1:21) Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

… by the spirit and power of the Living GOD

• (Rom 1:3-4) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And DECLARED TO BE THE SON OF GOD with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
• (Rom 6:4) ... that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of THE FATHER ...
• (Rom 8:11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead …
• (1 Cor 6:14) And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
• (Eph 1:19-20) … according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
• (Col 2:12) … through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

In conclusion then, …
As you must so clearly see above the apostles did not teach that Jesus raised himself from the dead. They taught over and over again, that GOD the Father raised His Son from the dead by GOD’s own power. They exhorted the early church to believe this as a requisite for salvation.
Neither did they teach anywhere that GOD raised the ‘body of Jesus’ and re-united it with his ‘immortal soul’!! They spoke of ‘him’ who was killed, ‘him’ who was buried, and ‘him’ who was raised from the dead by GOD! Never ‘it’ i.e. the body of Jesus.
They obviously therefore, did not take the words of John 2:19 to mean that Jesus would raise himself from the dead.
They obviously did not have that understanding. For if they had, they would have taught it wouldn’t they!! They obviously then, had no concept of the so-called deity of Christ.

Omega, whose report will you believe? Whose doctrine will you receive?
Apostolic doctrine or Trinitarian doctrine??
Selah

[adampastor]

CONCLUSION

Omega, ‘Believer’ & Alpha …
I have done my best to address all your queries and questions. In answering them, I have also tried to show that many of the words and expressions that you used such as ‘Jesus= a body’, essence, essences, the soul remaining after death, the immortal soul, Jesus’ soul always existing, Jesus not being related to any human being, eternal day, etc; have their roots in Greek/Hellenistic philosophy and Platonism.
These philosophies we are told to beware of.

We must allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. Any ‘difficult’ verses ought to be interpreted in the light of the majority of the clear verses.
Remembering that the Bible is essentially a ‘Hebrew’ book; written by inspired Hebrew men, who used Hebrew expressions and idioms; we ought to seek to understand the Bible with their mindset.

The Prophets, Jesus, Paul and the Apostles were not Grecian or Hellenistic in their thinking; they were not Philosophers. They were NOT steeped in the same thinking and mindset, as were Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Arius, Athanasius, the so-called Church Fathers, and others …
No, they were GOD-fearing monotheists who had no concept of trinitarianism or binitarianism.

Although the NT was written in Greek, it was written with a Hebrew/Jewish mindset that went hand in hand with the Hebrew Bible (the OT).
Therefore, we ought to put away our predominant Grecian/Gentile thinking and seek to understand the scriptures as the early church (and Jesus our Teacher) would have understood them.
The early church were believers in ONE GOD & one man whom the ONE GOD had made ‘Lord’
(1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Please look at each of the points that I have made. Be ‘Berean’ about it. [Acts 17:10-11]
(1 Th 5:21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
(2 Pet 1:2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord

Sources used:

• The Babylonian Talmud
• BDB = Brown, Driver and Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1968 )
• Colin Brown’s article: ”Trinity and Incarnation: In search of Contemporary Orthodoxy,” Ex Auditu (7), 1991.
• Isaiah 9:6: What is Meant by the Messiah being “God” and “Father”? by Frank Toth
• Journal of Radical Reformation.
• The Doctrine of the Trinity (Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound)
  by Anthony Buzzard and Charles F. Hunting (Lanham: International Scholars Publications, 1998 )
• Also cited various articles written by Anthony Buzzard.

I can also supply URL links to most of the subjects that I used if anyone is interested.

[Omega]

One Word=Gnosticism

[Bushmaster]

Omega bro this guy is Gnostic?

[Omega]

Well Hello again adampastor!

I see that you have done your best to disprove the deity of Christ, and i too will do what i must.

John 1:10 is talking about Jesus, the Son of the Creator. The Scriptures recognized solely ONE Creator ... this ONE Creator is YAHWEH, the GOD of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob; the GOD & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. [Mal 2:10]; YAHWEH created all things alone! [Isa 44:24]
What the biased KJV translators did was to translate the Greek word ’dia’ as ‘by’ in v.10. They did the same thing in Col 1:16, Eph 3:9, and Heb 1:2; hence to foist their doctrine/leaven that a ‘God the Son’ made all things. However this is not what the Scriptures teach. The Greek word ’dia’ can also be translated ... ‘because of’ i.e.
(Mat 27:19) … for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
(John 7:43) So there was a division among the people because of him.
(John 12:30) Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

It can also be translated ‘for’ e.g. in Mark 2:27 you do not read that
… The sabbath was made by man, and not man by the sabbath: but rather … The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Hence you are not given the impression that somehow ‘man made the sabbath’!

And around 88 times ’dia’ is translated ‘through’.

Hence, John 1:10 need not to be translated ‘by’ but rather THROUGH! Therefore, GOD Almighty, the Father, made all things with His Son in mind ... with His Son in view. Hence the Son was in the world, and the world was made actually by GOD the Father THROUGH the Son [i.e. in view of the Son], and the world knew the Son not.
This verse is definitely NOT saying that Jesus the Messiah made all things!
The Scriptures teach no such thing. Both Christ [Mark 10:6, 13:19] and the apostles [Acts 4:24, 14:15, 17:24 cp. Matt 11:25, Luke 10:24] taught that GOD, the Father, namely YAHWEH; is the sole Creator of all things. In fact, in NO Jewish writings (I am open to be corrected) will you find any concept that the Messiah is the Creator or Maker of all things. In fact, let me quote from the Talmud that also gives the gist of what I am saying ...

1223 dia dee-ah' a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):--after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) ... fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general importance.

As you can plainly see that the Greek word dia does not exactly mean through but throughout, furthermore it can also mean by as you can clearly see in the greek interpretation.

It is better interpreted as:The world was created for Jesus, through Him, by Him.

Talmud, Sanhedrin 99 AD

You forgot to mention the interpretation of the verse in it’s entirety, making it sound as if it was the only logical explanation..

He has a body but he is NOT a body. In HIM, GOD is revealed and manifested

He has a body but He is not a body? That is clearly an oxymoron and you are only contradicting yourself with your own words.

Scripturally, solely GOD Almighty, the Father alone is YAHWEH; His name alone is YAHWEH; [Psa 83.18]; He alone goes by the sole title of ADONAI, the Supreme Lord! So it is obvious that in verses such as Mark 12:28, Acts 4:36, Matt 1:22, 2:15, 3:3; Luke 1:32, 68; 4:18; Rev 4:8, 11:15, etc; ’kurios’ is being used for YAHWEH or ADONAI.
In the Hebrew Bible (a better term for the ‘Old’ Testament), GOD is known as the ‘Adon of all the earth’ [Josh 3:11,13, Zech 6:5] and He is also called ‘Our Adon’ [Neh 10:29, Psa 8:1, 135:5, etc]
Hence you can see a continuation of this theme in the NT e.g. Matt 10:25, Luke 10:24, Rev 11:15]
Men are called ‘adon’ in the Hebrew Bible; this is also seen in the NT e.g. Abraham is called ‘kurios’. [1 Pet 3:16]
And of course, Jesus of Nazareth, who is ’lord/kurios’ of all those who believe on him, and obey his gospel, both Jew and Gentile, hence 1 Corinthians 1:2. Together, we can acknowledge that the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY has made the man Christ Jesus, Lord of all; and one day every one shall do so to the glory of the ONE GOD, the Father. [Acts 2:36, 10:36, Phil 2:11]
Also for ‘adoni, my lord’, kurio (mou) is used as in Matt 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 22:44, Act 2:34, Luke 16:5

You have just made this argument stronger with those verses.

It is written:And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

In comparison toRevelation 1:18 - I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

I am clearly states the name of God Almighty not only that, Jesus is referred to as He that liveth, which clearly states that He was always in existence and therefore can only mean that He is not a created being.

Gnosticism:1 John 2:18 - John said, "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

And in comparison to psalm 2 where it states that THIS DAY have I begotten thee! in comparison to the last Hour, what is a day or an hour to God? Think about it.

In the Book of John (1John) where he is warning that "many antichrists have come," he is warning about Gnosticism which taught that matter is inherently evil, therefore a divine being could not take on human flesh. This view led the Gnostics to distinguish between "the man Jesus" and "the spiritual Christ." The Gnostics maintained that the spiritual Christ came upon Jesus at his baptism and left just before the crucifixion. The Gnostics took the "two-spirit" position on the incarnation. Then another sect of the Gnostics (Docetism), taught that Jesus only seemed to have a human body. Both groups held views that amounted to a flat denial of the incarnation of Jesus which, of course, is at the root of "New Age Christianity" which is also leading people to the lake of fire.

It is written: And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.John 8:23,24

To deny that God cannot take on Human flesh is not only implying that Jesus is not God but also is the Spirit of AntiChrist which the author John warned us ahead of time!

How can Jesus know all things? How about an omniscient GOD revealing ‘all things’ to him! It’s that simple. "TYPE=PICT;ALT=icon_smile.gif"
GOD showed Jesus things. He revealed things to Jesus. It was part of the job description of a prophet to ‘know things supernaturally’ (cp. the Pharisee’s comments [Luke 7:39] This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him:). How did Elisha know what Gehazi had done? [2 Kings 5:25-27] GOD revealed it to him! How did Elisha know what the king of Israel said in his bedchamber? i.e. what he said in secret? [2 King 6:12] GOD revealed it to him! (See also Daniel 2:19, 22,28,47, Amos 3:7)
(Amos 3:7) Surely Adonai YAHWEH will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Therefore, here comes Jesus ‘the Prophet Par Excellence’; the one who would speak the very words of GOD Himself in a way that no previous prophet had done [Deut 18:15,18-19, John 12:49-50]; it goes without saying that via the Son’s intimate relationship with his Father, that GOD will reveal many things to His Chosen One, even the intents of men’s hearts, etc. And by the way, ‘all things’ must be taken into context; Jesus was certainly NOT omniscient. For example, he didn’t know along with the heavenly holy angels, when the day of his coming/parousia would be!

Neither did he know the times when GOD was to restore the kingdom to Israel! [Mark 13:32, Acts 1:6-7] If he had known he would have told his disciples! [(John 15:15) Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.]
Jesus only knew what the Father had revealed and showed him. Hence, the scriptures clearly to NOT portray the Son as omniscient.

John 21:17 - He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.


1. Peter did not say that God knows all things but that He{thou}knowest all things.

2.
Jesus most definitely does have a beginning. Matthew speaks of the ‘genesis’ of Jesus Christ. [Matt 1:1]. Neither Matthew nor Luke in their narration about how Christ came into existence, has any concept of literal pre-existence.
Now let us look at the phrase ‘from everlasting’. The Hebrew is OWLAM
(Strong’s 5769). Now note how it is translated in the following verses: (In each case the word(s) translated from OWLAM are CAPITALIZED)
1.
mighty men which were OF OLD: Gen. 6:4;
for those nations were OF OLD: 1 Sam. 27:8;
the ANCIENT people: Isa 44:7;
in the generations OF OLD: Isa 51:9;
Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far ... it is an ANCIENT nation: Jer 5:15;
the prophets ... OF OLD: Jer 28:8;
the people OF OLD TIME: Ezek 26:20;
tabernacle of David ... as in the days OF OLD: Amos 9:11;
days OF OLD: Micah 7:14, Mal. 3:4

Although OWLAM in the right context can be used to denote ‘eternity’, it is clear to see that OWLAM in the above cases cannot mean eternal/eternity i.e. eternal mighty men, eternal nations, eternal prophets, eternal people, etc.
And this goes also for Micah 5:2 which is a verse simply speaking about the coming (that is, his first coming) and birthplace of the Messiah (as used in Matt 2:5-6, John 7:42). It is simply saying that the Coming of the Messiah had been depicted and spoken of from days of old, from of old time, even from the time of Abraham, who rejoiced to see his day. [John 8:56]
The KJV English translators being biased by their trinitarian theology used the words ‘from everlasting’.
Therefore, using the same Hebrew word, Micah 5:2 could so easily be
translated: ”… yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be
ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from old time.”
Compare :-
Revised Standard Version (hereafter cited as RSV) Micah 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.
(Likewise the New Revised Standard Version has the same rendition; hereafter cited as NRS)
Young’s Literal Translation Micah 5:2 And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah,
Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth—to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth {are} of old, From the days of antiquity.
New American Bible Micah 5:1 But you, Bethlehem-Ephrathah too small to be among the clans of Judah, From you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel; Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times.
New Jerusalem Bible (hereafter cited as NJB) Micah 5:1 But you
(Bethlehem) Ephrathah, the least of the clans of Judah, from you will come for me a future ruler of Israel whose origins go back to the distant past, to the days of old.

That is all this verse is saying. It is Messianic. It is the verse that the
Jews in Herod’s time turned to, knowing full well that this verse was speaking about the ‘Coming and Birth of the Messiah’. The coming and origin of the Messiah was prophesied from old or ancient times, even as ancient as Adam & Eve [Gen 3:15], Abraham [Gen 22:18, Gal 3:16], Judah [Gen 49:8-10], David [2 Sam 7:12-14, 1 Chr 17:11-13, Psalms 132:11, Isaiah 11:1,10, Jere 23:5, 33:15], Daniel [9:25-26], etc. The Jews were expecting a Davidide Israelite king whose origin had been spoken of from ancient times, to be born in Bethlehem. This is what Micah 5:2 is all about. Again, you find nothing in the Jewish
writings, before and after the time of Christ (I am open to be corrected), that speak of the Messiah being an Eternal Being who would be born into the world.

You quoted:Revised Standard Version (hereafter cited as RSV) Micah 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall co from ancient days.
(Likewise the New Revised Standard Version has the same rendition; hereafter cited as NRS)
me forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old,
From Old, ancient times, does not mecessarily Mean having a beginning, furthermore in the RSV version also states that He will come from ancient days, and those words alone prove the deity of Christ since God is referred to as ancient of days!It is written:Daniel 7:22 - Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom..

Hence the ‘el gibbor – mighty god’ spoken of in Isaiah 10:21 is indeed the Messiah In conclusion then, since ELOHIM is used in regards to men and judges; and since EL is used in regards to ‘power’ (e.g. Gen 31:29, Micah 2:1,etc), idols (Isaiah 44:10,15,17,etc) and mighty men including heathen kings such as Nebuchadnezzar (e.g. Ezek 31:11); EL (and ELOHIM) being used in a title for the Messiah is no proof of the so-called deity of the Messiah.


1. Quote:
… but furthermore Jesus is also called the Everlasting Father
as in God the Father, do you see the connection here my
friend?




You are kidding, right? Am I misunderstanding you? Are you saying that Jesus IS the Father!!!
I assumed you were a trinitarian not a modalist neither ‘Oneness’ in your
theology!!! Guess I got that wrong as well. Beside the very obvious fact that Jesus is clearly called the ‘Son of the Father’ [2 John 3] in the Scriptures; maybe I am misunderstanding you.

I believe and know that you are.

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The gifted child in this passage is the same divine child as Immanuel. Again using the prophetic perfect. The Prophet sees Him as though He were already born. Wonderful, Counselor{pele’yoets}is actually the one term in Hebrew. A wonder is indicative of a miracle. Counselor is often used in parallel with king{Micah 4:9} Thus miraculous counsel is given by this God-Like King. The Mighty God{El Gibor} is the strongest of these titles. In Isaiah, EL is always used of God and never refers to man.Gibor means hero. Together they describe one who is indeed God Himself. Everlasting Father{abiad} literally means Father of Eternity. He alone is the source of Eternal Life. Prince of Peace{Sar-Shalom}indicates that the mighty God will be a benevolent ruler bringing eternal peace on earth through the establishment of His kingdom. Thus the unclear figure of Immanuel is now brought to clear light:He Himself IS God incarnate!

1. It is written: But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I
work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:17-18
The author recognised Jesus as claiming to be equal with God and so did the Jews.





The author recognized no such thing!! The author narrated Jesus’ enemies’ accusations against him. The author recorded the accusation that “Jesus claimed to make himself equal to God”. You weren’t supposed to take the side of the accusers! You won’t supposed to believe the words of Jesus’ accusers!! Did Jesus ever break the sabbath? Of course not! Therefore how can one accusation be false and the other be true? NO! BOTH accusations are FALSE!
From that very moment, Jesus begins to refute the accusation that he is ‘equal with GOD’.

Did Jesus actually say, “that he was equal with GOD” NO!
His accusers said it!! Listen to the words of Jesus himself ... listen to
what HE SAID …



(John 5:19) … The Son can do nothing of himself …

(John 5:30) I can of mine own self do nothing : …


Now I ask you, how can Almighty GOD do nothing OF HIMSELF?? How can ‘His Equal’ do nothing OF HIMSELF?? How can a GOD-MAN OF HIS OWN SELF do nothing??
These are not the words of ‘deity’. These are the words of a man - total
humanity. A MAN who is totally dependant upon Almighty GOD for all things ... A MAN who is totally dependant upon Almighty GOD doing the signs, wonders and miracles. As Jesus said ”the Father … He doeth the works” (John 14:10 cp. Acts 2.22 miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD did THROUGH him)
Throughout John 5:19-47, Jesus refutes any suggestion that he is somehow (co-)equal to Almighty GOD. Whose report will you believe?
The words of Christ or the words of his accusers. Think about that very slowly.

Think about it slowly? I SEE!

It is written:Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands Hebrews 2:7
If God were to take on human form as a Son to A Father , what purpose would it serve to us as sons of God if He utilized all His power in human form?

NO! The scriptures speak of the resurrection of the DEAD not the resurrection of the body!!
The same goes for Jesus of Nazareth. The scriptures speak of the resurrection of Jesus NOT the resurrection of his body.
HE was killed. HE was slain. HE died. HE was buried. HE was raised from [among] the dead by GOD Almighty. HE now possesses immortality. We ought to speak the language of scripture. Scripture speaks of the raising up of human beings not bodies. Granted ... in the First Resurrection, those who are raised from the dead will be clothed with immortality. However, it is the ‘whole man’ that dies ... therefore, it is the ‘whole man’ that shall be raised from the dead. To use technical language, the Bible speaks of humans as being ”a psychosomatic unity of body and spirit”. The same goes for Jesus of Nazareth.

It is clearly written:Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

You asked ”If the Word is God and the Word became flesh, is it not also God?” NO! Because the word ‘God’ as in the ‘word was God’ is being used adjectively. It is being used to DESCRIBE GOD’s word. (The Greek text actually reads, “god/theos was the word”)
John was a monotheistic Jew. He was not presenting ‘another being’ alongside GOD who was himself GOD! No. That is ditheism. John was no trinitarian or binitarian. He was a ONE GOD Believer.
John was simply paraphrasing what the Hebrew Bible already says about the ‘making of all things’

1.

(Gen 1:1) In the beginning God created the heaven and
the earth. 3 And God said, …

(Psa 33:6) By the word of YAHWEH were the heavens
made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
(Psa 33:9) For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
(Psa 148:5) … for he commanded, and they were created.
(Amos 9:6, 5:8 ) … he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: YAHWEH is his name:

John 1:1-3 is about GOD’s [spoken] word! IT was ‘with GOD’ i.e. and IT was ‘God’ i.e. GOD’s word totally expressed GOD. GOD’s word is His Self-Expression. IT totally expresses GOD.
As a matter of fact, the majority of the English Bibles before the KJV, that
is from Tyndale’s original translation onwards (e.g. Tyndale’s Bible, the
Bishop’s Bible, the Great Bible, the Geneva Bible, etc) all translated John 1:1-3 using ‘it’ not ‘him’ e.g.
Tyndale (1525.)In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God: and God was that Word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing: that made it.
Tyndale New Testament (1530.)In the beginnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. The same was in the beginnynge with God. All thinges were made by it, and with out it, was made nothinge, that was made.
In 1537, John Rogers (using the pseudonym “Thomas Matthew”) published a translation based largely on Tyndale’s, which became known s Matthew’s Bible. He used “it” instead of “him” in John 1:3.
Great Bible (1539), this was a revised edition of Matthew’s Bible prepared by Miles Coverdale, uses “it” instead of “him.”

Geneva Bible (1560.)In the beginning was the Worde, and the Worde was with God and that Worde was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, & without it was made nothing that was made.

That is, Tyndale and others (although they all were no doubt trinitarians), recognized the fact, that John 1:1-3 is talking about GOD’ word, not a person, and translated John 1:1-3 as such.

A word is an ‘it’ not a him.

Sadly, trinitarian-induced bias prevailed, and from the KJV onwards, our
English bibles have ‘him’ in verse 3. However, this does not change the fact that John is speaking about GOD’s mighty word, His spoken word, through which all things have been made. In the fulness of time, GOD’s word became flesh in the person of JESUS CHRIST.
JESUS CHRIST is what the word of GOD became!

Let me sum this up with a quote from
Colin Brown wrote:

Indeed to be a “Son of God” one has to be a being who is not God! ... It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John’s Gospel to read it as if it said: “In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God and the Son was God.”




I can supply some URL links that go into more detail about these topics if
you so wish.

One of the most important titles of Christ is Logos{Word}. The notion behind this title embodied Gods revelation of Himself! To humanity. Scholars debate whether John borrowed this term from the Greeks or the Jews. If the term is Greek, there may be a numerous philisophical implications, and if it is Hebrew, it may have referred to wisdom{Proverbs 5-8} or the Law{Exodus 20}. Probably Jesus is called the Word of God because the phrase occurs over 1,200 times in the Old Testament to refer to the message of God. Jesus is the expresion and communication of the Word, He is both the incarnate and the inspired Word. Satan is twice recorded in Scripture as tempting someone. On the 1st occasion he questioned the integrity of the Word of God{Genesis 3:1-5}, On the 2nd occasion he questioned the integrity of Christ, the Word of God incarnate{Matthew 4:3,6}. If you question the validity of the scriptures then you question the integrity of Christ.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Can you kill the soul of God? If God became man and the body died, how then is God dead if His soul remains?




Classic GNOSTIC DUALISM!! Plato and Justin Martyr would be proud.To begin with, your question ... Can you kill the soul of God? If God
became man and the body died, how then is God dead if His soul remains?
GOD did not become a man so this is a non-starter anyway! Also when one dies, both BODY & SOUL dies. BODY & SOUL is MORTAL! SOULS DO NOT REMAIN!

God did become man!

If I may elaborate in detail regarding the concept of death: The scriptures never refer to death as the mere cessation of life, but instead as th unnatural separation of something from that to which it belongs. Therefore, a body without THE spirit suffers physical death{Genesis 35:18}, The expression second death defines the separation of a man from God. Human consciousness is better known as second death, suggesting that the Beast and the False Prophet will both remain ALIVE for a thousand years after being cast into the lake of fire{Revelation 19:20;20:10}.

You must have not read the verse that I wrote: John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. A human being from Heaven is that possible? you might say that He was created in Heaven, AND NO MAN HATH ASCENDED TO HEAVEN BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN?



I indeed did read your comments on John 3:13. For starters, it could simply be the case that Jesus’ words to Nicodemus ends at verse 12; hence it is John’s words and narration from verse 13 onwards whereby he is speaking after the events of the ministry of Christ. That is, the Gospel of John like the other three, are written AFTER the events of Christ’s earthly ministry. They are narrations informing us of the words and actions of Christ, plus retrospective insights including what GOD’s spirit has revealed to these apostolic writers.
Therefore, if verse 13 are the words of John, then John is indeed saying that no man hath ever ascended to Heaven, except for the only man to have come down from Heaven, that is, Jesus, the Son of man, which is currently now (as I John writes) in Heaven.

What did John mean by the phrase ‘come down from Heaven’? What did Jesus mean when he described himself as one who had ‘come down from heaven’?

Well to ‘come down from Heaven’ is a Jewish synonymous statement which means ‘to come from GOD’ or be sent from GOD or to be commissioned/authorized by GOD.
1. The manna :-
The manna that was given in the wilderness. Did it not indeed come from GOD.
However, did the Israelites literally see it descend out of Heaven? NO! It no more came out of Heaven anymore than the quails that were rained down! [Psa 78:27]. Yet both items did indeed come from GOD! GOD Almighty provided Israel with them, hence, they came from GOD, and hence, they came from Heaven.
Likewise, Jesus denotes himself as the Bread of GOD, the Bread from Heaven [John 6:31-33]. In the same sense, that the manna and the quails didn’t literally descend from Heaven, neither did Jesus. In fact, we are told how Jesus came into this world. The scriptures say nothing of him literally descending out of Heaven. NO! Jesus came into this world like every other man who comes into this world [John 1:9] (except of course Adam) … he was born into the world. (John 16:21; John 18:37 … was I born equivalent to came I into the world)

He was conceived/begotten in the womb of Mary ... he was made of a woman. Yet, he was a man sent from GOD! [John 3:17, 3:34, 10:36; Gal 4:4, 1 John 4:9, 14, etc] A man come from GOD! (John 8:42, 13:3, 16:27-28, 3:2, etc; cp. John the Baptist, see John 1:6. John the Baptist didn’t literally descend from Heaven, did he? Yet he was a man sent from GOD)


2. The Baptism of John :-
(Mat 21:24-26) And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
(See also Mark 11:29-32, Luke 20:3-6)
The term ‘from heaven’ is obviously then a synonymous expression of something (or someone) being ‘OF GOD’ John’s baptism didn’t literally descend from heaven. NO! John’s baptism was commissioned and ordained OF GOD! Thus, when Jesus speaks of himself as being from Heaven he is stating that he is commissioned and ordained OF GOD!


3. COMING DOWN FROM GOD :-
(James 1:17) Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Again, good gifts don’t literally descend from the presence of GOD. No! James is using the expression ”from above” to mean something being given or sent from GOD the Father. Hence, Jesus speaks of himself, as being ‘from above’ (John 8:23. See also John 3:31, 19:11 for other examples of the usage of this expression.); hence Jesus of Nazareth has been given (John 3:16) and sent from GOD.

We know from the recorded events in the NT, that Jesus of Nazareth did literally ascend to his GOD, to his disciples’ GOD, to his Father, to his disciples’ Father [John 20:17]; therefore John 3:13 is stating that no man has ASCENDED to Heaven, except that ONE APPOINTED MAN, the Son of Man, who came from GOD and was sent of GOD, and who is currently NOW in Heaven with Almighty GOD.
This man is the man Christ Jesus, the Son of GOD.
We await his literal descent from Heaven! [Heb 4:14, 1 Thess 1:9-10]

Now ... let’s indeed view John 3:13 as the speech of Christ himself. That is, let us take the words as Jesus’ own words, rather than a later comment by John.
What was Christ saying to Nicodemus?

Jesus spoke of himself in this passage as the Son of Man. As is well known, the title originates in Daniel 7:13 where, 550 years before the birth of Jesus, Daniel saw a vision of the Son of Man in heaven receiving authority to rule with the saints in the future Messianic Kingdom. Jesus used the title Son of Man of himself with the implication that in him was the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel ...It is the title which he specially employed, when he was foretelling to his disciples about the sufferings that were awaiting him (e.g. Mark 8:31, 9:31, Matt 26:24, Mark 9:12, 14:21, etc).

Now let us look at (John 3:14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
This verse accompanies John 3:13, that “no one except the Son of Man has ascended to heaven.”
The conjunction “and” joins John 3:13 and 14 closely. Both sayings appear to illustrate “heavenly things” which are required to happen to the Son of Man in the divine plan.
How then can Jesus have said that the Son “has ascended to heaven”? Simply because this is what had been forecast about him in Daniel.

Following a well-established principle of Hebrew thinking, God’s acts may be said to have happened already, once they are fixed in the divine counsels. The past tense “has ascended” may be explained as a past tense of something already been determined in GOD’s plan/will. Thus ”No one [it is written in the book of Daniel] is destined to ascend to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who [in Daniel’s vision of the future] is in heaven.”

Therefore, when reading John 3:13-14, special reference to Daniel’s prophecy must be taken into account.
The Son of Man is identified with the figure that in the book of Daniel is seen in heaven. He is there not because he is actually alive prior to his birth, but because God has granted Daniel, a vision of the ‘Son of Man’s’ future destiny. At the time of Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven; but the ascension is so certainly prophesied by Daniel that Jesus can say he has ascended, i.e., that
he is destined to do so.

So, in conclusion, then, John 3:13 is a reference to Christ’s future ascension. If we ask where the Son of Man was before, the biblical answer is found in Daniel 7:13. The man Messiah was seen in heaven in a vision of the future which became reality at the ascension (Acts 2:33), when Jesus had been exalted to the right hand of God.
Jesus hadn’t literally descended from heaven and at the time of him talking to Nicodemus, neither had he literally ascended to heaven. Jesus was therefore, speaking in anticipation, of what GOD had ordained via the prophet Daniel, that the Son of Man would ascend to heaven to receive ‘the kingdom of GOD’.
Thus neither David [Acts 2:34] nor any other person had ascended to heaven.
Contrary to much cherished tradition; the patriarchs have not “gone to heaven.”
They are sleeping in their graves awaiting the resurrection of all the faithful [Dan. 12:2, John 5:28-29];

Jesus hadn’t literally descended from Heaven?

It is written: John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Key words:CAME OUT

Omega is right, Jesus Christ existed before Adam. You say Jesus was purely a human like us?


YES I DO!
I guess it’s because I believe the scriptures ...
(Heb 2:14-18 ) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of THE SAME; … 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Granted Jesus was without sin, however, Jesus was neither deity nor angelic.
He was flesh and blood. He was as human as Adam was ... hence he is the Last Adam.
Why else would Paul juxtapose and compare Adam with Jesus if Jesus was indeed truly not a man!! Hmm!

Very good!
Jesus was indeed man, God-man that is!

Because of their leaven/doctrine, the Gnostics went on to say that at the most, Jesus is the flesh/body, the Christ is the spirit (hence there is a distinction between the two!) ...‘the Christ’ came upon Jesus to enable him to do what he did and at his crucifixion, ‘the Christ’ left him in order for the flesh/body {Jesus} to die.
They made a distinction between the body/flesh {Jesus} and the spirit {Christ}, therefore John wrote (1 John 2:22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus IS the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
‘Believer’, just thought you should know these things and above all, acknowledge that the Lord Messiah was indeed human like us (yet without sin) and is now immortalized, at the right hand of GOD his Father.
Also concerning ‘the soul’ … read my above post to Omega, where I discuss the scriptural teaching of the mortality of ‘the soul’

If I may, the meaning of the right hand of God His father.

It is written:Psalms 37:24 - Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

It is also written:
Matthew 20:23 - And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Whose hand? Jesus’ right Hand! The right hand of God{JESUS}
Do you see the connection here my friend?

1. Quote:

Those verses are stating the characteristics of man which God does not have because He is too Holy. It is not saying that God cannot send His only begotten Son to die for our sins. Also, those characteristics which God says He doesn’t have but man does, Christ did not have those
characteristics either. So what does that tell you?




It is not saying that God cannot send His only begotten Son to die for our sins.
Amen! In fact [Num 23:19, Job 9:32, Hosea 11:9] have nothing to with the Son!!
I most definitely believe that GOD sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins.
You are right; GOD does not have these characteristics. Therefore, GOD CANNOT even be tempted to lie or commit any other sin.
However a man can. And a man was sent to be tempted in all points.Although this man was so tempted, he DID NOT succumb to temptation and sin. This man is Jesus of Nazareth.
Although he committed no sin, indeed he had the same power of choice, as did Adam. He had the characteristics, as you put it, to do exactly as his progenitor, the man Adam, had done. However, where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded. Otherwise, the temptations would be pointless. It was the spirit of GOD, which drove Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. [Mark 1:12] If it was IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to be tempted to sin, the whole episode would be pointless and meaningless.

So what does that tell me, Alpha? It tells me that Jesus is qualified without doubt, to be touched with our infirmities [Heb 4:15, 2:18]; it tells me that Jesus is truly worthy to be exalted by GOD to be Lord of all.
It tells me that he is my brother as well as my Lord. It tells me that he is worthy. It tells me that he is the Holy One of GOD.
And above all, it tells me, that to teach that Jesus is somehow GOD or a ‘god-man’ demeans and lessens what Christ actually did and went through for us ... this I will not do! That is what it tells me!

1. Quote:

Those verses are stating the characteristics of man which God does not have because He is too Holy. It is not saying that God cannot send His only begotten Son to die for our sins. Also, those characteristics which God says He doesn’t have but man does, Christ did not have those
characteristics either. So what does that tell you?




It is not saying that God cannot send His only begotten Son to die for our sins.
Amen! In fact [Num 23:19, Job 9:32, Hosea 11:9] have nothing to with the Son!!
I most definitely believe that GOD sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins.
You are right; GOD does not have these characteristics. Therefore, GOD CANNOT even be tempted to lie or commit any other sin.
However a man can. And a man was sent to be tempted in all points.Although this man was so tempted, he DID NOT succumb to temptation and sin. This man is Jesus of Nazareth.
Although he committed no sin, indeed he had the same power of choice, as did Adam. He had the characteristics, as you put it, to do exactly as his progenitor, the man Adam, had done. However, where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded. Otherwise, the temptations would be pointless. It was the spirit of GOD, which drove Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. [Mark 1:12] If it was IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to be tempted to sin, the whole episode would be pointless and meaningless.

So what does that tell me, Alpha? It tells me that Jesus is qualified without doubt, to be touched with our infirmities [Heb 4:15, 2:18]; it tells me that Jesus is truly worthy to be exalted by GOD to be Lord of all.
It tells me that he is my brother as well as my Lord. It tells me that he is worthy. It tells me that he is the Holy One of GOD.
And above all, it tells me, that to teach that Jesus is somehow GOD or a ‘god-man’ demeans and lessens what Christ actually did and went through for us ... this I will not do!
That is what it tells me!

You have just clarifired the True meaning behind the temptation of Christ, was Christ tempted?
Satan was tempting Jesus, but was Jesus really tempted? Does it say in the verses that He showed temptation? A better word to describe this is to be tested.
It is written:
Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Matthew 4:1
Now where in those verses does it state that Jesus was actually tempted?

The temptation from Satan to Jesus was a lesson to be learned to all the sons or children of God as human beings, but that does not mean that He{JESUS}Himself was actually tempted but as a demonstration on how we as sons or children of God should live and obey.

Quote:Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me,
Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. So when was Jesus begotten? the answer to this question is dependant on the word “DAY” God transcends time and lives beyond time, He cannot be limited to a 24-hour day. So this word means an eternal day.

That statement is as contradictory as Origen’s phrase ”eternally begotten”

Psalms 2:7 does not say, “In a day have I begotten thee” but rather THIS DAY! Surely you must see that this is speaking of a specific 24-hour day or at least a specific time ... you can’t turn the expression ‘this day’ into an eternal day! This makes nonsense of language, whether English, Hebrew or Greek.

Anyway, no need to despair ... the Apostle Paul clarifies this totally ... turn your bible to (Acts 13:21-33) And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: …32 And we declare unto you glad tidings,how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

GOD fulfilled his promises by raising up a Saviour, Jesus of Nazareth. Note how the expression ‘raised up’ is used in Scripture – please note: Acts 13:33 is nothing to do with the resurrection. That is dealt with in verse 34 onwards. Please ignore the word ‘again’ in verse 33 – it is not in the Greek text. Verse 33 simply reads God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
F.F. Bruce wrote:
The promise of Acts 13:23, the fulfillment of which is here described [Acts 13:33] has to do with the sending of the Messiah, not his resurrection, for which see v. 34.

The KJV translators added the word ‘again’ to Acts 13:33 giving the false impression that this verse is speaking about the resurrection of Christ, when indeed, it is actually speaking about the event of the birth of Christ being the fulfillment of GOD’s promises!
Acts 13:33 when left alone clearly states that the Son was ‘begotten’ and that there was a time when he was begotten; hence the Son had a beginning. This of course, goes against the trinitarian doctrine of ’an eternally begotten Son, who is the 2nd person of the trinity’ hence the need for some manipulation on the translators’ part. Now, when a translator would ‘add a word’ which is not in the original Greek, they would place it in italics. However, they would not do this consistently i.e. the word AGAIN does not appear in the original Greek of Acts 13.33-37! Its Greek word palin (Strong’s 3825) is simply not there!

Hence what I am saying is this: To sway the reader from the obvious
implications of Acts 13:33, that the Son had a beginning i.e. he was begotten in time on a certain day; the translators added the word AGAIN, therefore causing the reader to read ‘the resurrection’ into the verse.

Now look again at Acts 13:33 without using the word ‘again’, and hopefully you will see that Acts 13:33 is not speaking about the resurrection at all!

If I may again attempt to clarify the word begotten and its usage within those verses: On several occasions during His ministry on earth, the sonship of Christ was particularly emphasized in the incarnation{Luke 1:35}, in baptism{Matthew 3:17}, and in the resurrection{Romans 1:4}. These events did not make Christ the Son of God, but only proved that He already was!.

And if you would like scriptural proof concerning the deity of the Holy Ghost


No thanks. That’s a non-starter.
GOD is spirit ... GOD is holy.
The holy spirit is simply the spirit of GOD. ’ITS’ not a person or a being alongside GOD the Father. ‘IT’ is the spirit of GOD.

Then you yourself had said it regarding the deity of the Holy Ghost and its adjunction with God.

OK! OK! Let me concede for a few moments to the above statement. Then are you not agreeing that Christ was indeed dead and it took power from another source other than himself in order for Christ to be raised from the dead?
Therefore Christ did NOT raise himself!!
Hmmm.

Yes indeed, it is written:John 5:19 - Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

That my friend is where you fail to realize the Godhead connection between the Spirit and Son and its unity and how they compliment each other.

In conclusion:


I can see that you have put much effort to disprove the Deity of Christ.

With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible, even God becoming man. I pray that one day the Lord Jesus Christ will not only open your mind but your heart also. We are living in the last days{Once again what is a day to God?}as in the book of Psalms 2, The Enemy is at work because His time is almost up. Those who seek the absolute Truth if sought with all their heart will come to a conclusion and that conclusion is"JESUS IS GOD!"

God Bless!

[Omega]

Further proof of the Deity of Christ.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

This is referring to the Millenial reign of Christ on Earth as LORD, and His name is Christ.

The Lord in Zechariah is referring to One who is Almighty and Eternal, that is none other than Almighty God Himself!

3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069.

As you can clearly see in the Hebrew translation that it isclearly referring to God Almighty.

It is written:And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Revelation 21:22

How many temples? ONE
Who is the temple? God Almighty and the Lamb.

It is also written:I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:13,14

Who is greater than Alpha and Omega{FATHER} the Beginning and the End{SON}and The First and the Last{HOLY SPIRIT}?

Once again it is written:And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God. Revelation 20:11,12

Who is sitting on the throne in the above verse? God
Who is the One who will judge all? Jesus

It is written:For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:John 5:22

God Bless!

[Omega]

Omega bro this guy is Gnostic?

Probably not Gnostic, but definetly mislead by cunning men and demons in disguise.

Not addressed directly to adampastor but to those who teach doctrine which are contrary to the Truth, especially regarding the Deity of Christ.

But most importantly, Salvation is the most important message within the Bible. I try to find the good within a person but neither do i dismiss error.

It is written: Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

[Omega]

Adampastor wrote:How can Jesus know all things? How about an omniscient GOD revealing ‘all things’ to him! It’s that simple.

How can an omniscient and all knowing God reveal all things to a human being with a finite mind?

It is written:Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Collosians 1:15,16

Since by Him all things were created, then Christ must have existed before the Universe came into existence. Before Principalities, angels, dominions, and man{Whom you claim Jesus is}.The Son can do nothing of himself, what exactly does that mean?

It is written:It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

It is the Holy Spirit within believers that guides and leads us into all truth.

It is the Holy Spirit{The Spirit of God}{Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:} within Christ and without it He is no more than an ordinary man, but Christ was filled with the spirit of God which is stated in the above verse.

It is also written:I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.John 15:5

And without the Spirit of Christ{Holy Ghost} dwelling within you, you also cannot do anything as stated in the verse above.

You wrote:(John 5:30) I can of mine own self do nothing.

Am i making myself clear adampastor?

Then you quoted Robert Heinlein:Anyone who can worship a Trinity and insist that his religion is monotheistic can believe anything”

Robert heinlein is not only a heretic but he was deeply affected by the theory of evolution, the philosophies and doctrines of man.

It is written:For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables 2 Timothy 4:3,4

Why quote someone who believed in the theory of evolution, minus well quote an agnostic or an atheist.

God Bless!

[Omega]

… by the spirit and power of the Living GOD



(Rom 1:3-4) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And DECLARED TO BE THE SON OF GOD with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

(Rom 6:4) ... that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of THE FATHER ...

(Rom 8:11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead …

(1 Cor 6:14) And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

(Eph 1:19-20) … according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

(Col 2:12) … through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

You have just revealed the 2 person in the Godhead my friend!.
If Jesus was raised by the Spirit of the Living God, does it not substantiate the deity of the Holy Ghost, unless you believe that the Holy Ghost is another person which is separate from God.

There you are ... ONE GOD anointing a man with His holy spirit. Why does that make GOD triune?
There is nothing triune about that! Jesus isn’t the first man to be anointed
with GOD’s spirit. However he is the man who has been anointed above his fellows ... as John said Jesus was given not the Spirit without measure [John 3:34, Heb 1:9, Psa 45:7]

Lets take a look at Hebrews 1:5-13

It is written:For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou
art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Jesus is superior to the angels and is presented in many ways.
Being THE SON HE is given a better name then them.{Verse 4}
He is worshipped{Verse 6}
He is served by the angels{verse 7}
He is God{Verse 8}
He created the angels{verse 10}
He is from everlasting to everlasting{verse 11,12}
The dignity of the Son is the dignity of God Almighty, but the dignity of angels are but servants{verse 14}

God Bless!

[Omega]

More Proof on the Deity of Jesus.

A very, very important note that one must remember:Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

The Pharisees who was blind to Jesus and God being His Father making Him equal with God was also blind when Jesus explained the Law which was given directly to Moses is now being ultimately fulfilled by the Word of God incarnate. Jesus now takes the law and takes it to the spiritual level God Himself had intended to.

Examples:Thou shalt not murder{Whoever is angry with his brother without a cause is a murderer.}
On Divorce{Total commitment}
Adultery{To not lust after another}
Do not swear{Speak the Truth}
Eye for an Eye and Tooth for Tooth{Forgive your Enemies}
Hate your enemies{Love your enemies}

To the Pharisees and to those alike today, the fulfilling commandments of Jesus seemed absurd to the Pharisees and the Spiritual understanding of Him as God was also misunderstood, if they could not understand Him seemingly breaking oral traditions and laws then they certainly could not have understood Him to be God incarnate!.

It is written:If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? John 3:12

It is written:God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,Hath in these last days
spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:Hebrews 1:1-3

Jesus is described as being the brightness of the Glory of God. Let us take a look at the word being. The Word being whose force is"Eternally Being" guards against the idea that Jesus became the Son at some point in time.

The brightness of God's Glory as in comparison to:And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.Revelation 21:23

Do you see the Spiritual connection here?

The Son is the express image{Verse 3}
Express Image:Or an exact duplicate or imprint of the original of the nature of the Father.

By whom He made the Worlds{Or ages}:Recognizes Him as Both Creator and Heir of all things.

It is written:Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:5-8

Lets take a look at the words even the death of the Cross:He was not only obedient til death but also the cross. As children of God we will encounter not only physical suffering but also experience spiritual pain that will only help us to grow in Him.

Being in the form of God{Verse 6}
Form of God:Meaning that Christ has always possessed the Eternal qualities of God.To own the nature of God is to be God Himself and to be
equal to the other natures of the Godhead{Father, Holy Ghost}

Equal:Strong's Concordance:2470 isos ee'-sos probably from 1492 (through the idea of seeming); similar (in amount and kind):--+ agree, as much, equal, like.

Took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. {Verse 7,8}

These are very important key verses and must also be understood and discerned by the Spirit.

He took the position of a servant and made or fashioned in the appearance of a mere man.
Humbled himself and was obedient unto death{Verse 7}, compare:And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Matthew 26:39

Even though dreading the Spiritual torment about to be put upon Him for the Sins of the World, and although He asked the Father IF possible to remove the cup from HIm, said to the Father as HE WILL, meaning that regardless of the suffering and agony, He is willing to continue. And we as children of God should also do as HE did, and that is Why God became man as a Son to a Father, and so likewise we should behave and act accordingly as Jesus did to His Father. Mostly if not all loyal children of God will experience trials and troubles in their lifetime that seem extremely difficult, but if loyal and obedient to the will of God, will overcome and be triumphant in the end as with the example Jesus had set for us.

It is written:And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zechariah 14:4

Compare to:Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:11

The LORD JESUS ascended visibly to Heaven in the book of Acts, and in Zechariah will descend the same way to earth as He ascended to Heaven and even at the same location. The book of Zechariah refers to the Lord returning to the Mount of Olives, and is there not ONE LORD as God Himself says in the Old Testament? And is not the Lord God who is speaking, and is it not the Lord God who says that He shall return upon theMount of Olives?

1 Timothy 3:16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God Bless!

[Omega]

I AM

THE WAY:JESUS#
THE TRUTH:HOLY GHOST#
THE LIFE:FATHER#

Jesus is the only way to approach the Father.

The Holy Ghost: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16:13

Father: The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. 1 Samuel 2:6

The fullness of God.

[reject not faith]

THE WAY:JESUS
Yes Jesus(pbuh) did preach the way, the way that is straight and not crooked, for he preached believe in the one God who hath created the heaven and the earth.

THE TRUTH:HOLY GHOST
The Holy Ghost according to Islam, is the angel Gabriel. And indeed did Gabriel bring the Truth from God, "There is no God, but God"

THE LIFE:FATHER
Indeed God hath power over life and death, for only He can control those forces for He has power over all things. God is in a way a Father to all of mankind who believes in Him and worships Him alone. I am His humble servant.

You see God is in connection with these three things, but not in the way that Christanity connects them, with due respect of course. All things come from God, the way, the truth, and the life. But "Say not God has begotten a son nor is He begotten... Say not God is third or part in a Trinity, for There is no God but God."

May peace be upon you

[Bushmaster]

God is not a part of Trinity. God is Blessed Trinity.

And the life mentioned is THE ETERNAL LIFE.

[Believer]

Peace rejectnotfaith,

THE TRUTH:HOLY GHOST
The Holy Ghost according to Islam, is the angel Gabriel. And indeed did Gabriel bring the Truth from God, "There is no God, but God"

This claim is quoite wrong. Even Jews believe the Holy Spirit is the very Spirit of the LORD. This is no angel, but the very Spirit of God.

Numbers 11:25
Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took of the Spirit that was on him and put the Spirit on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again.

Numbers 11:29
But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!"

1 Samuel 16:13
So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah.

2 Samuel 23:2
"The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue.

Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD -

Isaiah 40:13
Who has understood the spirit of the LORD , or instructed him as his counselor?

You see God is in connection with these three things, but not in the way that Christanity connects them, with due respect of course. All things come from God, the way, the truth, and the life. But "Say not God has begotten a son nor is He begotten... Say not God is third or part in a Trinity, for There is no God but God."

Psalm 2:5-9
5 Then he rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 "I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill."

7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :

He said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.
8 Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will rule them with an iron scepter;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

God does have a Son and He is the King.
Jesus is the heavenly King, He is the Son of the Most High!
Understand that it is you Muslims with the false perverted religion.
Here it is a reality that God has a Son who is the King who also is the Lord.
It is a reality that the Holy Spirit is the very Spirit of the LORD, not an angel.
I pray one day you will recognize what is real.

[Omega]

THE WAY:JESUS
Yes Jesus(pbuh) did preach the way, the way that is straight and not crooked, for he preached believe in the one God who hath created the heaven and the earth.

THE TRUTH:HOLY GHOST
The Holy Ghost according to Islam, is the angel Gabriel. And indeed did Gabriel bring the Truth from God, "There is no God, but God"

THE LIFE:FATHER
Indeed God hath power over life and death, for only He can control those forces for He has power over all things. God is in a way a Father to all of mankind who believes in Him and worships Him alone. I am His humble servant.

You see God is in connection with these three things, but not in the way that Christanity connects them, with due respect of course. All things come from God, the way, the truth, and the life. But "Say not God has begotten a son nor is He begotten... Say not God is third or part in a Trinity, for There is no God but God."

May peace be upon you

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Acts 5:3,4

Ananias had lied to the Holy Ghost in these above verses, not to Gabriel or Muhammad, for some reason muslims cannot decide which is the Holy Ghost. Furthermore it clearly says also that ananias had not lied to men but to God, making the Holy Ghost GOD! and as we all not Gabriel is not God but a mere servant of Him.

It is written:If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:15-17

And i can assure you that it is not Gabriel nor Muhammad that dwells within me, it is HE{Holy Ghost}that guides all Christians into all truth}and as all Christians know, the Quran does not lead them in the right direction but convicts & testifies that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

The Greek word parakletos literally means"one called alongside to help", as in comparison to the idea of the Comforter.

The Holy Spirit is called another comforter because this is also on of the titles of Christ.{1 John 2:1,advocate}.
Furthermore the Father is also known as the God of all Comfort
{2 Corinthians 1:3}

God Bless!

[webmaster]

Alpha to Omega, Genesis to Revelation, from the beginning to end!

Elohiym = God
YAHVEH = Jesus

Nothing has changed in over 6 thousand plus years!

What a smack in the face of satan, he wouldn't bow down to adam(per quran) and then adam's descendant has a child which is YAHVEH's Essence.

YAHVEH's Essence = The Word!

Essence
[n] the central meaning or theme of a speech or literary work

When God speaks you should Listen or you to will end up like satan!


From KJV Genesis 2
(1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2) And on the seventh day Elohiym ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(3) And Elohiym blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which Elohiym created and made.
(4) These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the YAHVEH Elohiym made the earth and the heavens,
(5) And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the YAHVEH Elohiym had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
(6) But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
(7) And the YAHVEH Elohiym formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(8) And the YAHVEH Elohiym planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
(9) And out of the ground made the YAHVEH Elohiym to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
(10) And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
(11) The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
(12) And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
(13) And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
(14) And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
(15) And the YAHVEH Elohiym took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
(16) And the YAHVEH Elohiym commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
(17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
(18) And the YAHVEH Elohiym said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
(19) And out of the ground the YAHVEH Elohiym formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
(20) And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
(21) And the YAHVEH Elohiym caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
(22) And the rib, which the YAHVEH Elohiym had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
(23) And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
(24) Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
(25) And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


From Mark 12
29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; YAHVEH our Elohiym is one YAHVEH:
30. And thou shalt love YAHVEH thy Elohiym with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
32. And the Jewish Scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one Elohiym; and there is none other but he:

From KJV 1 Peter 1
(1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
(2) Elect according to the foreknowledge of Elohiym the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(3) Blessed be Elohiym the Father of our YAHVEH Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

From KJV Revelation 16
(1) And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of Elohiym upon the earth.
(2) And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
(3) And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
(4) And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
(5) And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O YAHVEH, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
(6) For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
(7) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, YAHVEH Elohiym Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
(8) And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
(9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of Elohiym , which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
(10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
(11) And blasphemed the Elohiym of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
(12) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of Elohiym Almighty.

[littleshepard]

I know this is off topic but...what is a gnostic? I've heard of someone begina agnostic..is this the same thing?

[Believer]

I know this is off topic but...what is a gnostic? I've heard of someone begina agnostic..is this the same thing?

An agnostic is someone who believes that God is impossible to prove exists. They don't deny that God exists or not so their not atheists.

A gnostic believes he possesses hidden knowledge and empasizes the Logos of Christ more than Christ Himself. They believe there were different emanations of Logos over the years, and Islamic gnostics believe that the Quran is just another emanation of Logos.
They're weird and very different from agnostics. I has spoken to an Islamic mystic for a time, now he was gnostic.

[webmaster]

Christians are ESOTERIC?
Jesus did possess intellectual and esoteric knowledge of spiritual things?

Sorta reminds me of

Fundamentalist:
[n] a supporter of fundamentalism
[adj] (theology) of or relating to or tending toward fundamentalism

Fundamentalism:
[n] the interpretation of every Word in the Bible as literal truth

Christians are neither liberal nor conservative.

Fundamentalism is not based upon the concepts of this world but is based upon the concepts of God!


GNOSTIC:

WordNet Dictionary

Definition:
[n] an advocate of gnosticism
[adj] possessing intellectual or esoteric knowledge of spiritual things
[adj] of or relating to Gnosticism; "Gnostic writings"


Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition: \Gnos"tic\, a.
1. Knowing; wise; shrewd. [Old Slang]


2. (Eccl. Hist.) Of or pertaining to Gnosticism or its
adherents; as, the Gnostic heresy.


\Gnos"tic\, n. [L. gnosticus, Gr. ? good at knowing,
sagacious; as a n., man that claims to have a deeper wisdom,
fr. gignw`skein to know: cf. F. gnostique. See {Know}.]
(Eccl. Hist.)
One of the so-called philosophers in the first ages of
Christianity, who claimed a true philosophical interpretation
of the Christian religion. Their system combined Oriental
theology and Greek philosophy with the doctrines of
Christianity. They held that all natures, intelligible,
intellectual, and material, are derived from the Deity by
successive emanations, which they called Eons.

GNOSTICISM:
WordNet Dictionary

Definition:
[n] a religious orientation advocating gnosis as the way to release a person's spiritual element; considered heresy by Christian churches

ESOTERIC:
WordNet Dictionary

[adj] confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle;

AGNOSTIC:
WordNet Dictionary

Definition:
[n] a person who doubts truth of religion
[adj] uncertain of all claims to knowledge

20. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21. To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23. And this I do for the gospel's sake

[littleshepard]

Oh ok, thanks guys for your answers. I know now.

[Almonte]

Greeting my friends,


Jesus(may peace be upon him) never claim to be god in the holy bible.
The christians do not have one verse in the holy bible were jesus said i am god or worship me.


There are numerous accounts in the New Testament which also deny Jesus’ divinity.
For example, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus responded to one who addressed him as “O good master”, saying: “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” If he rejected being called “good”, [2] and stated that only God is truly good, he clearly implies that he is not God.
In John 14:28, Jesus was saying: “The Father is greater than I.” By stating that the “Father” is greater than himself, Jesus distinguishes himself from God. Also in John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell his followers: “I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to [size=12]my God and your God.” Jesus’ reference to God as “my Father and your Father” further emphasizes the distinction between himself and God. Furthermore, by referring to God as “his God”, he left no room for anyone to intelligently claim that he was God.
Even in some of the writings of Paul, which the Church has taken to be sacred, Jesus is referred to as a “man”, distinct and different from God. In 1st Timothy, 2:5, Paul writes: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

There are also texts in the New Testament which confirm that Jesus did not act on his own. Jesus is quoted in John 5:30, as saying: “I can of mine own self do nothing...” and in Luke 11:20, as saying, “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the Kingdom of God is come upon you.” In Acts 2:22, Paul writes: “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves


What god is not

Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?



Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Today, there are many modern scholars in Christianity who hold that Jesus Christ was not God. In 1977, a group of seven biblical scholars, including leading Anglican theologians and other New Testament scholars, published a book called The Myth of God Incarnate, which caused a great uproar in the General Synod of the Church of England. In the preface, the editor, John Hick, wrote the following: “The writers of this book are convinced that another major theological development is called for in this last part of the twentieth century. The need arises from growing knowledge of Christian origins, and involves a recognition that Jesus was (as he is presented in Acts 2.21) ‘a man approved by God’ for a special role within the divine purpose, and that the later conception of him as God incarnate, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity living a human life, is a mythological or poetic way of expressing his significance for us.”
There is a broad agreement among New Testament scholars that the historical Jesus did not make the claim to deity that later Christian thought was to make for him; he did not understand himself to be God, or God the Son, incarnate [in the flesh]. The late Archbishop Michael Ramsey, who was himself a New Testament scholar, wrote that “Jesus did not claim deity for himself.” His contemporary, the New Testament scholar C.F.D. Moule, said that, “Any case for a ‘high’ Christology that depended on the authenticity of the alleged claims of Jesus about himself, especially in the Fourth Gospel, would indeed be precarious.”
In a major study of the origins of the doctrine of the incarnation, James Dunn, who affirms orthodox Christology, concludes that “there was no real evidence in the earliest Jesus tradition of what could fairly be called a consciousness of divinity.” Again, Brian Hebblethwaite, a staunch upholder of the traditional Nicene-Calcedonian Christology, acknowledges that “it is no longer possible to defend the divinity of Jesus by reference to the claims of Jesus.” Hebblethwaite and Dunn, and other scholars like them who still believe in Jesus’ divinity, argue instead that Jesus did not know he was God incarnate. This only became known after his resurrection.
Most famous among the Church of England bishops, who doubt Jesus’ divinity, is the outspoken Reverend Professor David Jenkins, the Bishop of Durham in England, who openly states that Jesus was not God.
The following article, which appeared in The Daily News some years ago, clearly indicates the degree to which there are doubts among the clergy regarding Jesus’ divinity.

Shock survey
Of Anglican bishops

LONDON: More than half of England’s Anglican bishops say Christians are not obliged to believe that Jesus Christ was God, according to a survey published today.
The poll of 31 of England’s 39 bishops shows that many of them think that Christ’s miracles, the virgin birth and the resurrection might not have happened exactly as described in the Bible.
Only 11 of the bishops insisted that Christians must regard Christ as both God and man, while 19 said it was sufficient to regard Jesus as “God’s supreme agent”. One declined to give a definite opinion.
The poll was carried out by London Weekend Television’s weekly religion show, Credo.

“DAILY NEWS” 25/6/84

The real jesus


In the quran sora al-maidah

5:72
They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
5:73
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
5:74
Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
5:75
Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
5:76
Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."
5:77
Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way. [/size]

[Omega]

Hello Almonte! and welcome here my friend!

It may be difficult, but please try reading the entire thread before posting a response, because the questions and quotes that were given by you have been answered within the thread, therefore responding to your above post would seem repetetive, unless you want me to answer them again without you reading the entire thread? I would be more than willing to if that is what you want?

God Bless!

[Believer]

Peace Almonte,

Jesus(may peace be upon him) never claim to be god in the holy bible.
The christians do not have one verse in the holy bible were jesus said i am god or worship me.

What Jesus is this? The Jesus from Islam???
The Jesus in the Gospels reveals Himself as God.
He said "I am the Father are one" and " I proceed from the Father"
Jesus say's He's a heavenly King and He shall sit at God's right hand.
Read the Bible some (Psalm 110:1, Daniel 7:13-14, Psalm 2, Psalm 80:17)
Jesus is the Lord and Son of the Most High whop would bear man's sins, just as the prophets revealed.

For example, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus responded to one who addressed him as “O good master”, saying: “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” If he rejected being called “good”, and stated that only God is truly good, he clearly implies that he is not God

Jesus IS good because He is God!
Realize that Jesus was perfect and good all the way!

[Mujahideen]

yea and he also DIED....so lets speak in past tense.....he WAS perfect.

[Almonte]

peace believer




In the name of God, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful
Sura 17
17:81
And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."
The third verse which Christians claim validates the doctrine of the trinity is the verse of John 10:30
"I and my father are one."
This verse, however is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows:
"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."
John 10:23-30
In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.
Need more proof? Then read:




Joh 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
Joh 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.


Those who claim that Jesus was God, hold that he was not a separate god, but one and the same God incarnate. They draw support for this belief from verse 30 of the Gospel according to John, chapter 10, in which Jesus is reported to have said, “I and the Father are one.” Out of context, this verse does imply Jesus’ divinity. However, when the Jews accused him of claiming divinity, based on that statement, “Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, “I said, Ye are gods?” [15]- [16] He clarified for them, with a scriptural example well known to them, that he was using the metaphorical language of the prophets which should not be interpreted as ascribing divinity to himself or to other human beings.
In psalm110:1 and Daniel 7:13 these are not jesus words read the bible

Jesus never said I am god or worship me in the bible. People say that not jesus Jesus never said I am god are worship me in the bible. People say that not jesus



1) "Know therefore this day, and consider [it] in thine heart, that the LORD he [is] God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: [there is] none else." Deuteronomy 4:39.

2) "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3

3) "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:" Exodus 34:14

4) "Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11.

5) "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6

6) "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:6

7) "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:18.

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:22

The holy Quran



5:116
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
5:117
















peace believer




In the name of God, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful
Sura 17
17:81
And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."
The third verse which Christians claim validates the doctrine of the trinity is the verse of John 10:30
"I and my father are one."
This verse, however is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows:
"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."
John 10:23-30
In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.
Need more proof? Then read:




Joh 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
Joh 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.


Those who claim that Jesus was God, hold that he was not a separate god, but one and the same God incarnate. They draw support for this belief from verse 30 of the Gospel according to John, chapter 10, in which Jesus is reported to have said, “I and the Father are one.” Out of context, this verse does imply Jesus’ divinity. However, when the Jews accused him of claiming divinity, based on that statement, “Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, “I said, Ye are gods?” [15]- [16] He clarified for them, with a scriptural example well known to them, that he was using the metaphorical language of the prophets which should not be interpreted as ascribing divinity to himself or to other human beings.
In psalm110:1 and Daniel 7:13 these are not jesus words read the bible

Jesus never said I am god or worship me in the bible. People say that not jesus Jesus never said I am god are worship me in the bible. People say that not jesus



1) "Know therefore this day, and consider [it] in thine heart, that the LORD he [is] God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: [there is] none else." Deuteronomy 4:39.

2) "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3

3) "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:" Exodus 34:14

4) "Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior." Isaiah 43:10-11.

5) "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6

6) "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:6

7) "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:18.

"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else." Isaiah 45:22

The holy Quran



5:116
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. 5:117

[Omega]

Hello Almonte!

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

That statement to me does not prove the divinity of Christ as some Christians hold to be. He is stating that they and Him and His Father will be in accord or in agreement and of one mind and not the same being.
Neither does it disprove His divinity.

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God. John 10:35,36

Ye are gods{Psalm 82:6} is referring to the Hebrew judgeswho interpreted God's justice and His law. Jesus was not denying that He is God, but denying that He had said anything that could be mistaken or misinterpreted as a crime of blasphemy, furthermore He was demonstrating His superior knowledge of Scripture.

5:116
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. 5:117

Allah himself is even mistaken on the doctrine of the Deity of Christ, Christians do not worship three gods, neither do they worship Mary as stated in the Quran.

God Bless!

[Believer]

Peace Almonte,


John 6:40-51
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[4] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
"

Does this sound like Jesus is another human prophet?
He is the one God calls His Son and He will raise us up at Judgement.
The prophets confirm that Jesus is the Messiah is the Son of God!
He proceeds from God because He came from Heaven and God ddoes not call an angel His Son. Jesus was preexistent, not a human being like us. He sits at the right hand of the Father.


5) "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6

There is only one God, but notice this above verse reveals God as not a one-bodied being. The LORD King and the LORD Redeemer is God.
Jesus is the Reedemer! He sits at the right hand of the Almighty!

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

[Almonte]

Peace to all




In the name of God, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful
Sura 17
17:81
And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."


jesus never claim to be god
Do you understand

[b]
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Faith ,They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.
Jesus wasn't talking about creationA University of Richmond professor, Dr. Robert Alley, after considerable research into newly found ancient documents concludes that
"....The (Biblical) passages where Jesus talks about the Son of God are later additions.... what the church said about him. Such a claim of deity for himself would not have been consistent with his entire lifestyle as we can reconstruct. For the first three decades after Jesus' death Christianity continued as a sect within Judaism. The first three decades of the existence of the church were within the synagogue. That would have been beyond belief if they (the followers) had boldly proclaimed the deity of Jesus."Is there any confirmation of this in the Bible, yes! If we were to read the Bible we would find that long after the departure of Jesus, his faithful followers continued to "keep up their daily attendance at the Temple" (Acts 2:46) It would be beyond belief to imagine that had Jesus indeed preached to his apostles that he was God, and if Jesus had indeed commanded them to forsake the commandments, that they would then disregard all of this and continue to worship in a Jewish synagogue on a daily basis, let alone the great Temple itself. It is further beyond belief that the Jews of the Temple would stand idly by and allow them to do this if they were preaching the total cancellation of the law of Moses and that Jesus was God.


Ex 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.


2co 4:The devil is the God of this world.
This been taken out of the bible, they like to play [/b]

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Joh 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Contradiction is it one or none

God have many sons in the bible
Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Lu 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Ge 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Ps 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Contradiction Israel is my son, even my firstborn and Ephraim is my firstborn
Christians claim that what is unique in the case of Jesus, is that he is the only sonHow many sons do he have

Allah himself is even mistaken on the doctrine of the Deity of Christ, Christians do not worship three gods, neither do they worship Mary as stated in the Quran.

Christians say that Mary is the mother of GodHeb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually
I think that Christians should worship Melchisedec without a father and mother Jesus have a mother, neither beginning or end, Jesus had beginning and end.
In the quran sora al-maidah


5:72
They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
5:73
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
5:74
Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
5:75
Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
5:76
Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."
5:77
Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way. [/size]

[littleshepard]

[b]


jesus never claim to be god
Do you understand

Peace Almonte,

And do you need to have God tell you Himself that He is God in order for you to believe in Him? Because if that's the case He specifically didn't tell you but someone else [Mohammed] through someone else [angel gabriel]. And how can you believe a person when that person himself is not a god?

In the OT many have spoken with God directly, there were a few that have received good news through the angels. Although in the NT we didn't see Jesus and God have a conversation together, but to us, HE IS [I AM] God so we don't have that problem of understanding.

We want to see spiritual things with our own eyes so that we will have comfort in our evil hearts [since to us, man is born inheritantly evil], but since God doesn't work this way to satisfy our own selfish desires, there is no way to convince people unless one opens up to the Holy Spirit. See, the devil prefers it this way because then he can control us and keep us away from our heavenly Father by using man made things such as "logic". I forgot the passage, but in the OT God did state that His way is not the way of man. It's very prevelant not only in the OT but more so in the NT and that sometimes confuses alot of people. Why should a God humble Himself and mingle with men/women/children?

I've seen this explained hundreds of times on this site, but I just wanted to give my opinion on the matter since I've been pretty silent before and I am new too...

"I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)

Jesus always spoke in parables to get a message across to people. One would think that when revealing Himself it would be that way as well. Why?

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)

Peace

[Believer]

Peace Almonte,

jesus never claim to be god
Do you understand

Understand that Jesus humbled Himself and did not come here to say "I am God, worship me!!!" as that would contradict His meekness.
The wise shall see that Jesus is Lord.

Jesus was worshipped.

Matthew 2:11
They went into the house, and there they saw the child and Mary his mother. They kneeled down and worshipped him. Then they opened their bags and gave him gifts. These gifts were gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
A man who had leprosy [a bad skin disease] came and kneeled in front of Jesus and worshipped him. He said to Jesus, `Sir, I know you can heal me if you want to.'

Matthew 15:24
But the woman came and bowed down in front of Jesus and worshipped him. She said, `Sir, help me.'

John 9:38
The man said, `Sir, I do believe.' He kneeled down in front of Jesus and worshipped him.

Luke 24:49
They bowed down and worshipped him. They were very happy and went back to Jerusalem

Daniel 7:13-14
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Daniel sees the Son of Man given power by the Father, and He is worshipped by the nations and people in Heaven. He has an everlasting Kingdom, consistent with Christ claim to be a heavenly King.

"....The (Biblical) passages where Jesus talks about the Son of God are later additions....

This guy doesn't know hwat he's talking about.
Even Jewish Tanakhs have Psalm 2 like this:

Psalm 2:6-12, Jewish Tanakh
6 'Truly it is I that have established My king upon Zion, My holy mountain.'
7 I will tell of the decree: HaShem said unto me: 'Thou art My son, this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.'
10 Now therefore, O ye kings, be wise; be admonished, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve HaShem with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Do homage in purity, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way, when suddenly His wrath is kindled. Happy are all they that take refuge in Him.

There is a Son of God and He is this heavenly King again, so He is the Son of Man mentioned. Jesus says many times He is the Son of Man

Ex 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

This is an English translation of an old scripture.
"god" probably has a different Hebrew word that means LORD God.

God have many sons in the bible
Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Lu 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Ge 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Ps 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

All of us are sons and daughters of God, He created us, He's our Father.
Jesus however is the Son of God
This is a title, you're right.
The "Son of God" is the powerful heavenly King that is one with God.

5:73
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

We believe that God IS Trinity, not a part of some triad.
What infidel that wrote this book shows serious ignorance.
Friend, you have nothing to worry about the Quran, it has no Godly authority.
I know my faith abut Muhammed and his scribe buddies that wrote this book don't.

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger;

Only a messenger?????
So His coming back at Judgement and His dvine birth (both in Islam) are just nothing? Man, Jesus us more than some messenger!!!

[littleshepard]

correct me if I'm wrong but....doesn't it state in the koran that Jesus [Isa] is the saviour? If so...how then is mohammed put above the saviour? That doesn't make sense to me and seems illogical.