JESUS IS GOD!!!

[Omega]

It is clearly written:John 2:19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

But he spake of the temple of his body John 2:21

And it is written:Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

[Scorpion]

Amen.

[Bushmaster]

AMEN!

[fallen]

And it is written:Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Hello omega my comrade,the words God hath raised him, him meaning the body of Christ and the breath of the Spirit(Holy Spirit) the agent of creation which creates and gives life gave life to that body.They are all ONE.
See you around!

[Alpha]

It is clearly written:John 2:19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

But he spake of the temple of his body John 2:21

And it is written:Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Amen brother.

[Zombie]

It is clearly written:John 2:19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

But he spake of the temple of his body John 2:21

And it is written:Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

definition of God: "A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe", or in other words, a god is suppose to be invincible, has power over everything, and is without an end or a beginning. Unfortunately, Jesus(pbuh) doesn't really fit into this definition. How is he God? and please don't give me any verses/refrences from your fabricated Bible.

[Alpha]

It is clearly written:John 2:19 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

But he spake of the temple of his body John 2:21

And it is written:Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

definition of God: "A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe", or in other words, a god is suppose to be invincible, has power over everything, and is without an end or a beginning. Unfortunately, Jesus(pbuh) doesn't really fit into this definition. How is he God? and please don't give me any verses/refrences from your fabricated Bible.

Christ said He gives His life and brings it back up. He also said no one takes His life but He gives it. Christ was also perfect and sinless. How does He not fit your definition? And don't say because He's human, because another definition of God is--there is no searching for His understanding.

[Believer]

definition of God: "A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe", or in other words, a god is suppose to be invincible, has power over everything, and is without an end or a beginning. Unfortunately, Jesus(pbuh) doesn't really fit into this definition. How is he God? and please don't give me any verses/refrences from your fabricated Bible.

There is no definition to describe God! How can you define God who you cannot possibly comprehend?
Is God incapable of transcending to earth as a man and walking among us? Isn't God capable of all things?

Jesus possessed two natures, He was both God and Man.
Jesus needed to eat, drink, sleep, etc. or He would have physically died. He would always remain God, but loose His Manhood.

[Omega]

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
It is written:2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


God Bless!

[Omega]

I recall someone on another thread calling Jesus a coward because He prayed to the Father that if possible that the cup of suffering be removed, and yet he uses {pbuh}.

It is as the Word of God says:James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

Realise it or not, this person just called God a coward, not to bright. This same Jesus will be the one who will determine your eternal destiny.

It is written:For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son. John 5:22

The word of God is true and faithful and they will come to pass!

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Matthew 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

[oneGOD]

Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."

John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God

John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he couldn’t do a single thing of his own

and if he could not do a single thing of his own, how can he resurrect his body?

heh...talking about laughable scripture.

[Omega]

Jesus told his followers that he couldn’t do a single thing of his own

Do you even know what that means? apparently NOT!

It is written, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear:James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


It was the breath of God{Holy Spirit}that raised the BODY!


The Body is nothing without the Spirit, ON HIS OWN{WITHOUT THE HOLY GHOST}


It is almost a miracle how you fail to realise this NATURAL MAN.

[oneGOD]

Funny, how you claim they are one and then whenever it fits you , you separate them. He can't do nothing without the holy spirit? I thought they were one, obviously not according to your answer.

Plus all that, Jesus called God HIS GOD.

Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."

One can clearly see that Jesus can not forgive sins here, but it is HIS GOD as he called him can forgive sins.

One can only wonder, if Jesus was God, why would he call God HIS GOD

[Omega]

Nothing seems to get through you, amazing.

One can clearly see that Jesus can not forgive sins here, but it is HIS GOD as he called him can forgive sins

Is that why Jesus said,"And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee."

Wow, that is hard to understand.

It is written:Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

The Father is glorified and honored by the Son and the Son is honored and Glorified by the Father.

It is also written:Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

It is as the scripture saith:- Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And without controversy GREAT is the Mystery of godliness.

And I leave you with this Natural Man, that you may ponder its True meaning.

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Ephesians 3:4


God Bless!

[Mujahideen]

further

The Body is nothing without the Spirit, ON HIS OWN{WITHOUT THE HOLY GHOST}

wait...arent the holy ghost and Jesus one? or are they 2 different people?

[Omega]

wait...arent the holy ghost and Jesus one? or are they 2 different people?

My oh my, phew!

Are you serious? The Holy Ghost is the breath of God, so does that make it another person?

It is written: Genesis 1:2- And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[Mujahideen]

spirit of God meaning God's soul?...If it were to leave him he'd die?

[Omega]

How can it leave Him? Tell me my friend, and when did it leave Him?

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Matthew 11:25

[oneGOD]

I like how the only answer you can always give to such verses is by using the word Mystery

1) Jesus can not forgive sins.
2) Jesus can not judge.
3) Jesus Called our God HIS GOD

Umm.. where is the MYSTERY
when Jesus calls God HIS GOD



Jesus has a will, didn't he say : John 6:38 - "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me"

A very simple and natural conclusion would be that Jesus has a WILL and God has a WILL.

I mean, it's all some simple common sense that anyone can see. It's not that nothing can go through my skull, it's your skull my friend

[Omega]

Do you know what it means by mystery?

Something that was hidden and is now revealed, but revealed to who?

It has not yet been revealed to you as of yet Natural Man.

It means that people like you will never understand unless you accept the Truth, you are slowly digging your own grave, and He that digs his own pit shall fall in it.

For it is written:Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Corinthians 1:25

Even if I were to plead with you day and night regarding the Truth, you may never realise it until the Day of Judgment!

When all is said and done, these words will ring in your ears Forever!

Jesus came to seek and save those who are lost my friend. Don't reject this offer.

The Pharisees failed to realise who Jesus really was, but wanted to kill Him because He claimed to be equal with God.

And especially in these last days, it is happening again.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life, but the Wrath of God{Eternal Torment} shall abide on Him.


God Bless!

[Scorpion]

When Jesus said "Father Forgive them for they know not what they do.."

That does not show he could not forgive sins, that shows that he had AUTHORITY from the Father to say whom and when he should forgive their Sins.

Luke 5:20 - "And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee" - Jesus forgave Sins...

Luke 7:48 - "And he said unto her, Thy sins are FORGIVEN"

Here ...

Luke 5:24 - "But that ye may know that the SON OF MAN hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house"

the SON OF MAN is one of the title's of Jesus, of course he forgave sins. How silly can you get? Duh

Conclusion:
Jesus CAN forgive Sins.

Time is composed of three things ... Past, present and Future, those three make 1. if you take one out, they others cannot exist. You fail to get the concept of the trinity through your peanut sized brains thats why you have so much confusion.

OneGod: My dad can answer each and every one of your claims about Jesus and the Bible. Tell me what questions you have about sin and Jesus's authority and he will answer it.

Thanks. Jesus forgave sins. Period.

[Omega]

OneGod: My dad can answer each and every one of your claims about Jesus and the Bible. Tell me what questions you have about sin and Jesus's authority and he will answer it.

Exactly!


Your Father and my Father, your God and my God.

[oneGOD]

For it is written:Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Corinthians 1:25

God is never foolish, God is never weak...garbage like that comes from foolish people.

Now of course, you sound like those idol worshippers who refused to give them up because their typical answer whenever they were faced with challenging questions:"You just have to believe", apart from common sense, it doesn't matter, you just have to believe. ame case with you here. JESUS CALLED GOD HIS GOD. Crystal proof. JESUS CAN'T JUDGE.Crystal proof. How more thick headed can you be?

When Jesus said "Father Forgive them for they know not what they do.."

That does not show he could not forgive sins, that shows that he had AUTHORITY from the Father to say whom and when he should forgive their Sins.

Same dumb thing.... Jesus have authority from God... let me rephrase it ,LOL..... God has authority from God...I mean dumb does this sound?

And whatever Jesus heard he said ...which basically means that when he said that their sins were forgiven...he said that because he was told they were forgiven....very very simple logic.

Remember guys, this Jesus you believe in called you DOGS

Remember guys, Jesus called your God HIS GOD

[Scorpion]

1. Show me where in the Bible Jesus called us Dogs.

2. Jesus can judge, and does Judge.

Here ...

John 5:30 - "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me"

And here ...

John 8:16 - "And yet if I judge, MY judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me"

John 8:26 - "I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him"

Come on man your pathetic, if you want to debate, atleast know your scriptures. Your making a fool out of yourself.

As for Jesus calling Father, God, i will answer that claim tomorrow. My eyes are literally shutting. I will answer you after i come home from college.

OneGod: You really need to know your scriptures before you make weak arguments. It will help. Your almost too easy.

God Bless and Goodnight.

[Omega]

JESUS CAN'T JUDGE.Crystal proof. How more thick headed can you be?

Oh no, is that why Jesus said that all judgment is Given unto the Son? and that His Father judges no man?

Is that so hard to understand? talk about thickheaded, to get through your skull it would a drill the size of the moon to get through to your brain.

You and your so-called allies can lead each other into darkness, it is as they say, if the blind lead the blind they will both fall into the ditch.

[Alpha]

Matthew 15:26>But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

oneGOD, if you are referring to that passage, please read the rest of the context. And please read what the woman's response was and what Christ eventually did. Also, please notice the word "world" in John 3, meaning Christ did not only come for the Jews, but the Jews and Gentiles. And please read Matthew 28:19 where Christ commanded all His followers to go to all nations and preach the gospel. Also, please read passages in which Christ said the Kingdom of God was to be first preached at home to the Jews, then to the Gentiles. And please read the passage where Christ is with the Samaritan woman (a Gentile). Thank you.

Also, refer to these passages: Jesus came to the Jews first. The Gentiles being added to Israel fulfills several Old Testament prophecies: Psalm 18:49, Deut. 32:43, Psalm 117:1, Isa. 11:1,10. ( http://www.velocity.net/~edju/Abraham9.htm )

Finally,

The Gentiles are partakers of the blessing of Romans 15:26-27. The Gospel records clearly demonstrate that the New Covenant was offered to the Jews first. In Matthew 10, Jesus sent the disciples to preach the Gospel only to the nation of Israel. Only after the Jewish leadership rejected Christ was the Great Commission expanded to include all nations [Matt:28:18-20].


(Mat 28:18-20 KJV) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. {19} Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: {20} Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(Rom 1:16 KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

(Rom 15:8-12 KJV) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: {9} And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. {10} And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. {11} And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. {12} And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

(Rom 15:26-27 KJV) For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. {27} It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. -- From:

http://www.velocity.net/~edju/Abraham9.htm

[Omega]

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Revelation 17:14

Now if Jesus is not God then there must be 2 lords , Did not God in the OT say that there shall be ONE LORD!!! AND HIS NAME ONE!

And is not Jesus called King of Kings and LORD OF LORDS!!!

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Thats all folks!

[oneGOD]

ALpha, did he not call the Gentiles Dogs? YES HE DID.

Omega, there is nothing wrong with the Daniel verse. However, what those people wrote about Jesus is up to them, everything written after the four Gospels is just an opinion of these people and how they perceived Jesus.What matters the most is what Jesus said on earth, eventhough it is still translated though and written years after his deoarture, the accuracy is questionable. As you can see, your four gospels never agree on what he exactly said, each put it his way.

Jesus Called God HIS GOD, YOU CAN NOT DENY THAT

Jesus admitted that without the help of the father he is NOTHING. This certainly separates him from being God at all.

The lame excuse of calling this THE MYSTERY OF GOD is just stupid and it is the only way you can accept this kinda of faith.

Jesus said he came to do the will of the father, well, a very simple conclusion would mean that Jesus has a will also, which means they have separate wills.

Jesus also said that whatever he hears he speaks, well , come on now, does God need to be instructed to say things?

Jesus is called the servant of God, is God a sevant to himself?

There is no way that Jesus and God are one, if Jesus is a person and God is a person as written in your definitions they simply can not be one. They have different wills, one instruct the other and so on. It's just common sense, nothing hard about it.

[Omega]

Why don't you read the entire thread before posting, I already answered why Jesus said He can't do nothing on his own. Sheesh!

Why don't you read Scorpions quote and apply it to yourself, Natural Man.

[Scorpion]

OneGod: i will answer each and EVERY one of your claims tomorrow afternoon. Your definately on the wrong side of the road though, i'll refute what your saying tomorrow, with confidence

Thanks for your questions, i'll answer them all.

[Zombie]

1. God is All Knowing... but Jesus was not.

When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God is All-Powerful... but Jesus was not.

While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God... but Jesus did have a God.

God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans... but Jesus was flesh and blood.

While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said, " No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18) "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24, "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God ant any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him... but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.

Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a "good master" in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Further more, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done," and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

[Believer]

Peace Zombie,

1. God is All Knowing... but Jesus was not.

When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

Jesus was only demostrating to us how mysterious and secret the End will be. He wants to be prepared for the End, and He won't tell us when it will be. Jesus is All-Knowing, He knew what the Phariseesm his disciples, people in general were thinking. He knew how many husbands the Samarian lady by the well had. Jesus has the trait of God--Omniscience.

2. God is All-Powerful... but Jesus was not.

While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

You left out very important verses from this passage.

John 5:21-23
21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Also, Jesus worked His miracles without asking the Father permission.
Jesus possessed the full Power of God to emply as His wished.
Jesus could forgive others' sins and He controlled weather!
Jesus was Omnipotent, this is the trait of God.

3. God does not have a God... but Jesus did have a God.

God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

Matthew 27:46 is a fulfillent of a prophecy pertaining to the Messiah's crucified.
Jesus, as a human, didn't want to suffer a terrible death so He asked the Father if there was another way to save mankind from Sin.
This is like you asking yourself "So I really have to do this??" Then you realize why "Okay, I'll do it then"
Jesus said "My Father is your Father, my God is your God," Jesus wants us to understand that it was the Father's Will that Jesus came to us and saved us of our sins. Jesus wants us to acknowledge that the Father is whom all good things come.

4. According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans... but Jesus was flesh and blood.

While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said, " No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:1 "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24, "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God ant any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

When people saw Jesus, they saw the human Jesus. God was His being. much like we can't see our soul. Jesus's soul was God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him... but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.

Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a "good master" in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Further more, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done," and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

Obviously Jesus can't go off and do His own Will, He is bound to the Will of the Father. God only has ONE WILL. Jesus also says "I am the Father are one"

[Omega]

God is All Knowing... but Jesus was not.
When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

Luke 2:52 - And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
As you can see here that Christ had limitations, the word flesh emphasizes His humanity.
Example:
John 4:6,Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
Matthew 8:24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

Now the question is, what would be the purpose of God becoming man and limiting His power and knowledge?
Jesus as God wanted to demonstrate how we should live as children of God or sons of God, that is why Jesus is referred to as the “Son of God” and if He was called the Father of GOD, would that makes sense? NO
As the title Son of God, son meaning how a Son should live and Honour His father and to be obedient in all His ways.
Examples:
1.We should be baptized to show our obedience and affiliation with the Father:
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Matthew 3:16
2.We should resist temptation from Satan.
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Matthew 4:6,7
3.We should be obedient until death.
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. Matthew 26:42

So as you can see, that God limited His power and knowledge in Christ to be a model Son unto a Father.

God is All-Powerful... but Jesus was not.

While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

Once again I have already answered it:It is written, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear:James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

It was the breath of God{Holy Spirit}that raised the BODY!

The Body is nothing without the Spirit, ON HIS OWN{WITHOUT THE HOLY GHOST}

Can you do anything without your spirit? Without the spirit the body is dead, clear and simple.

God does not have a God... but Jesus did have a God.

God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

Once again same concept as Christ limiting His power and displaying sonship to a Father.

It is written:For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Matthew 13:15

[Scorpion]

Jesus Says -

"I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE"

You CANNOT seperate Jesus from the Father, when Jesus said the Father and I are one, The Father IS God, and if Jesus is ONE with the Father ... He is GOD. Period.

You either Accept Jesus was God by what he said during his ministry, history NEVER even records that Jesus was Muslim or preached about Allah, that is utter nonsense, Allah is a figment of people's imagination that has come into the world after Jesus's work was completed. Wake up for once.

Heres what it all comes down to ... You either accept that Jesus IS GOD from what he said in history and in the Bible, or ... hes a complete liar, a lunatic and a false prophet.

The same goes for the Death and Resurrection, you either accept it happened just like he said it would, or it didn't happen and he is a false prophet a lunatic and a liar, and so is ALL the other Prophets in the Old Testament who prophecied Jesus's Death and Resurrection, they would then also be liars and false prophets, would i dont think you would agree with would you?

Now i dont think you would agree with choice number 2, the only other option is the first one. That Jesus IS God.

[oneGOD]

Hi,

Jesus called God HIS GOD, you still can't answer that as I see.

"I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE" ?

Hmm.... let's se what Jesus said on other occasion:
John 17:
20
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21
so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,

ans as we clearly see from reading the above in this verse, the same word ONE is used not only to describe Jesus and the Father but to describe Jesus, the Father and eleven of the twelve disciples of Jesus.

Plus if you keep reading and not taqke things out of context we also cleary see

"The Jews answered him saying,'For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou being a man, makest thyself a God '" (John 10:33).

So the Jews thought he was making himself God. Let's continue:

'Is it not written in your Law, "I said ye are gods. If He can call them gods, unto whom the word of God came, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, "Thou blasphemeth," because I said I am the son of God?'" (John 10:34-36).

So Jesus defended himself, just like they were called gods he called himself god as well, because he was sent to them from God. Jesus didn't contradict the scripture when he called himself son of god because the jews are called the sons of God, prophets are called the sons of God. Jesus is CLEARLY defending himself here.

SO Omega, the only excuse you can come up with is that God willingly reduced his powers on earth? So it's not a mystery no more, but how about Jesus not speaking on his own? Did God instruct himslef? LOL...I guess not.

Besides, your response only shows that we are dealing with two persons here, two persons can not equal one person, since the first person prayed to the second. The first porson came to do the will of the second person, which clealy implies that the first person has a will.

And beside all of that Jesus still called God HIS GOD

[Scorpion]

OneGod: I will answer ALL your claims one by one ok? Patience. Ask things one bit at a time.

===============================================

Jesus clearly claimed to be the Messiah and Son of God:
Jesus told the Samaritan woman that he is the Messiah (Jn 4:25-26)
Jesus affirmed Peter's statement that he is the Messiah and Son of God (Mt 16:15-17, see also Mk 8:29-30, Lk 9:20-21)
Jesus told the high priest that he is the Messiah and Son of God (Mk 14:61-62, Mt 26:63-64, Lk 22:70)
The Jews understood that this meant Jesus was equating himself with God: "he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn 5:17-18).

Other places where Jesus equated himself with God:
Jesus told the Jews, "I and the Father are one." (Jn 10:24-38)
Jesus told the disciples, "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am." (Jn 13:13)
Jesus forgave sins, which only God had the authority to do (Mk 2:5-11, Lk 5:20-24)
Jesus said that he had seen Abraham and that he is eternal: "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (Jn 8:57-58)
Jesus said that he had seen God, which no one else could do (Jn 6:46)

Some people have used Matthew 22:41-46 (also Mk 12:35-37, Lk 20:41-44) to say that Jesus denied he was the Messiah:
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.

He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."' If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Actually, this passage demonstrates that the Messiah has to be divine. The way to resolve the apparent contradiction between Psalm 110 and Isaiah 11 is for the Messiah to be divinity in human form: biologically a descendent of David, but divine and thus David's Lord

===============================================

You asked why Jesus also 'prayed' to God? Heres the answer to that question ...

QUESTION:

Jesus had the habit of prayer as is clear from the following references: Luke 5:16,9:28,11:1-2, Matthew 21:22. All supplications of Jesus and his disciples were addressed to God the Father. Obviously, therefore, there was no equality between the supplicant and Him to Whom supplication was addressed. God had the power to respond to supplication and grant it. Quite obviously Jesus lacked such power, for indeed if he had possessed that power, his supplication to God would have been meaningless. Had he been the second person in the Trinity, and therefore, God, he would have been in no need to supplication, as he would have had the power to do all that he wished. This is well illustrated in his repeated supplications in the garden of Gethsemane when he fell on his face and prayed. ( Matthew 26:39)

ANSWER:

Before I answer this question, I would like to say some things. Christianity is nearly 2000 years old and throughout its history, the central beliefs have remained very close to what they were since its advent. For instance, we know that the Christian belief that Jesus was God come in the flesh that exists today in our creeds and catechisms is also found in the earliest Christian writings that we have available. Thus, one can assume that we have been thinking about this issue for a while. Many great intellectuals have believed in Christianity (e.g. Origen, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Blaise Pascal, Søren Kierkegaard, etc.). So, don’t be so surprised that we have actually thought about this issue before. This is not exactly a shocker! Christian belief did not come about through some arbitrary dogmatic decrees; rather, it came about through serious investigation of Jesus’ and the Apostles’ message that we have recorded in the New Testament.

Christians adamantly assert that Jesus was a human being and never have we ever tried to hide this fact. He was fully human in every possible manner. He was not kind of or sort of human, he was not a fake human, but he was a real human. People would not walk up to Jesus of Nazareth and suddenly exclaim, “This man is God!” The glory of the eternal Christ was veiled during his time on earth, save the Transfiguration (Mk 9) and Resurrection. Christians also declare that Jesus of Nazareth lived as the Incarnate God on earth. He was fully God in every way. He never stopped being God; however, he never ceased to be a human as well while on Earth.

I said all of this to say that if he was a human it is no surprise to learn that he prayed. Humans were meant to pray to God and to be in right relationship with him. Jesus fulfilled this role as a perfect human being. Is God talking to himself? Christians are monotheists; however, we do believe there exists plurality within the Godhead. For example, consider this verse from Genesis, “Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness” (Gen. 1.26a). This is a classical example. Though some interpret “us” as a royal plural, substantiation for this claim is not found within the Hebrew Bible, for no consistent use of the royal is plural can be found throughout the Hebrew Bible as in, for example, the Qur’an. If Christ had power, would he, therefore, never need to implore for God’s help? Jesus Christ was a human being. He was weak and needed the help of the Father. Being a human, Jesus possessed every instinct we have as human beings (e.g. the need to eat, to sleep, even to survive). Often we must act contrary to our own instincts as moral people. Both Christians and Muslims know this because we both highly value the moral lifestyle. Our wills subjugate our instincts quite often; however, the human will is weak and needs the help of the Creator. Jesus human will was often weak, though He always knew what to do. He invoked the name and power of His Father to be with him as a human being who needs God. I do not see why this is so strange. This following hymn was sung by the earliest Christians to explain the nature of Jesus Christ’s Incarnation and is now only found in the Bible,

Who, though he was in the form of God,

Did not regard equality with God

As something to be exploited.

But emptied himself,

Taking the form of a slave.

Being born in human likeness.

And being found in human form,

He humbled himself

And became obedient to the point of death—

Even death on a cross. (Philippians 2.6-8)

Christ himself spoke of this in a prayer to the Father, “I glorified you [i.e. the Father] on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed” (John 17.4, 5; cf. John 1.1-3). And this the Father did, we read in Matthew 28.18 Jesus says, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

I often hear this comment or a similar version thereof, “So God was talking to Himself—asking Himself for help?” This question is misleading because it appears to view the situation from the Islamic point of view; whereas, the doctrine of the Incarnation only works under a Trinitarian umbrella. I admit that the doctrine is incompatible with Tauhid; however, it is a Christian and not an Islamic doctrine. Within the understanding of the three ‘persons’ of the God, we believing in the relation of the persons. This can be seen in events like Jesus’ Baptism (Mk 1.9-11), but I think it is best demonstrated by the words of Jesus:

All things have been handed over to me

by my Father; and no one knows the Son

except the Father, and no one knows the

Father except the Son and anyone to

whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Matthew 11.27)

There is, therefore, and interrelating of the members of Trinity, and this is just a glimpse at the multifarious ways one can demonstrate their absolute unity. Jesus’ prayer life, as God, is an outworking of this godly existence and Godhood that is unique to Him alone.

For centuries, Christians have viewed Jesus as the model of a perfect prayer life. He never neglected to seek the Father and the Spirits strength during His ministry. This facet of his life we have never attempted to sweep under the rug or gloss over. We have preached and teached upon the very fact as goals for our devotion to God. Jesus is our Supreme Lord, but he is also our supreme example.

Is that clear now why Jesus prayed to God? Can you honestly answer yes or no and then i will continue to answer all your other questions my friend.

Thank you.

[oneGOD]

Heh... I did not ask about Jesus praying to his God. I ersponded to :"Father and I are one". Read through it again and stop pasting stuff.

[Scorpion]

Ok ok ... First ... God wasn't a "son of god" ... Jesus was THE Son of God ... Capitol S for Son, Capitol G for God, and THE Son, meaning Gods ONLY Son.



JESUS IS NOT THE FATHER

So how can he be God ?

The church and more importantly the Bible recognizes the deity of the Son. Most cults strip him of this making the Son only a man, an angel or at best a secondary divine being created by the Father. They ignore the fact that the son is called God just as the Father is. If one says the Son or Spirit are not called God then they would have to be consistent and say the Father is not either.The reason the Father is explicitly called God by Jesus is because he is honoring another instead of himself. Each person in the godhead does this, yet we find their is a hierachial structure (a successive order not in time but of position).

Jesus is called the Son over 200 times throughout the N.T. The Father is referred to as distinct from the Son over 200 times. Over 50 times Jesus the Son and the Father are mentioned in the same verse. Yet we find Paul’s greeting as grace and peace from both God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus identifies himself as the Son of God all throughout the Bible. He is always put on equal status with the Father being able to bestow grace to the believer. The only time he is not equal is by position, never in nature.

John 20:31 ...That Jesus is the Christ the Son of God." Jn.16:3 "And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor me." Here he is distinguishing himself as another from the Father. Jesus separates himself from the Father in person but not in nature.

Jn.10:30: " I and my father are one" this is not a numerical one, Jesus is not saying he is the father. they are not one person but in nature they are a united one. It actually reads we are one in Greek the first person plural esmen . Examining his claim further "I and my Father are one." The Jews pick up stones because they understood this as blasphemy in vs. 36 Jesus interprets what he meant by saying because I said, "I am the Son of God." There is a very good reason for this because…. Contrary to those who claim the Son of God means less than God it actually affirmed his deity.

In Jn.20:17 Jesus said "I am ascending to my Father and your Father to my God and your God." Anti-Trinitarians claim since Jesus had a God over him he could not also be God. What we are not saying is that he is the Father or the Spirit. Coming in the servant role and as a man he was submissive to the Father as a Son. Notice he makes a distinction from "my Father and your Father" not saying our Father. The same is applied to " my God and your God." As a man he acknowledged the Father as "my God" .We are unable to say this in the same manner as he did. God is his Father from eternity past, he being the Son of eternal generation. Thomas bowed before Jesus saying, he is his God and his Lord, Jesus could not say the Father was his Lord in the way man does.

Jn.11:41-43 Jesus lifts his eyes toward heaven and prays, " I thank you that you heard me, and I know that you always hear me." We see consistently he is praying toward heaven just like all the saints in the O.T.. So why pray if your God. Because he is dependent on God in his lowered state and he is giving us the perfect example of our having a relationship with the Father. The Son was instructed by the Father as his God, since he decided not to use his position independently. Jesus never referred to his Father as "our Father" in prayer together with others. Father was a term for the Jews who were in covenant with God . Jesus who being God in nature was divine and equal in all respects to God could not call God his Father as we do, being adopted children. God was his Father in a different sense than ours, in that they were united together from eternity. So he makes a distinction of "my" and "our". " "When Christ prayed to the Father, you have the Son on earth the Father in heaven. this is not separation but divine disposition. now we know that God is within the depth's and exists everywhere, but in might and power, the Son being, indivisible from the Father is everywhere with him, yet in the economy, the Father willed that the Son should be found on the Earth, himself ( the Father ) in heaven." (Tetullian.) What he is explaining is that the omni-presence of God is everywhere yet the location of his persons are in different areas. ( Jn.11:41-42,12:28, 17:1-26)

Mt. 26:39-42 In Gethsamane he prays three times to the Father in doing his will. Why does he ask for the Father to let this cup pass if he is God, Isn’t this like asking himself? Jesus' ( 2nd person of God ) was God communing with God the Father (1st person of God ). Jesus is struggling over the soon and coming separation he will experience with the Father. He is asking if there be another way so he will not experience this. Otherwise he has his own human will that is not submitted to God and he is sinning. The concept the scriptures portray of the crucifixion is not that God died but that he was separated spiritually and died in the flesh . In Gethsamane it was the cup that Jesus asked to be removed. If he was praying that he would not have to experience physical death he would be rejecting the very reason he came. His obedience is shown as in Phil.2 says even to the death on the cross. He would not be praying for the very purpose of his coming to be removed.

This is why the cults deny the deity of Christ because they recognize that these are two different persons. It is because of their preconceived ideas and training that God is strictly singular. In their attempt to uphold Monotheism they cannot receive the teaching of his nature being triune, they then lose the Son of God as a distinct person.

As for your claim about Jesus calling God His God and it proving that Jesus was not God, thats quite lame and weak. Heres why ...

Because there is a Hierarchy of Authority in the Trinity ... The Holy Spirit Glorifies the Son, and the Son Glorifies the Father.

I will write up a better response tomorrow when i have time, im going sleep now. Take care and see you tomorrow onegod.

[oneGOD]

JESUS IS NOT THE FATHER

So how can he be God ?

According to your belief, they are the same God, so Jesus Father...it doesn't matter...they are one, or do you wanna say something else?

Don't try to give a personality to each one, you are separating them this way and making them two not one.

And one thing before I continue....try to read through my post and use your own logic to answer them...don't paste long stuff and overwhelm me.

Not trying to be rude here man OK?

Here he is distinguishing himself as another from the Father. Jesus separates himself from the Father in person but not in nature.

How can this ever make sense man, if Jesus and God are one then Jesus can not distinguish himself from God...period man...what is this word "nature" it just sounds dumb, only way you can make it work is to make it harder to comprehend.

Jn.10:30: " I and my father are one" this is not a numerical one, Jesus is not saying he is the father. they are not one person but in nature they are a united one. It actually reads we are one in Greek the first person plural esmen . Examining his claim further "I and my Father are one." The Jews pick up stones because they understood this as blasphemy in vs. 36 Jesus interprets what he meant by saying because I said, "I am the Son of God." There is a very good reason for this because…. Contrary to those who claim the Son of God means less than God it actually affirmed his deity.

Please read through my post above.

Also, one important fact about the Gospel of John...it is written at least 100 years after Jesus...go figure.

Basically, what does it come down to?
If Jesus is God himself then calling someone else my God just seems very odd. Now if you want to say that because he was regarded as a son or a human he called him His God then I want you honestly to think about this. Wasn't all the prophets called servants of God just like Jesus was. Didn't God call the jews his sons? Then how can this affirm that Jesus is God?
Jesus call God His God because he is his God and he is his servant and his son, just like all the good people on earth, just like Moses, Jacob, David...etc

Otherwise he has his own human will that is not submitted to God and he is sinning

Nice they even affirm that Jesus and God has different wills. Don't try to manipulate it. Jesus (God) ..two different wills..come on now.

Because there is a Hierarchy of Authority in the Trinity ... The Holy Spirit Glorifies the Son, and the Son Glorifies the Father

The only way you can believe that Jesus is God is by not reading your NT. they glorify each other? aren't they one? How can they be one when each has his own personality? when Jesus called God his God he is affirming that HE IS HIS GOD.

Not once in the whole four Gospels you see Jesus saying: I AM GOD. Not once.

and now scorp you can read this and chill out a little:

so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us

So now go through my posts above and use your own logic...

[Omega]

Colossians 1:14-15 In whom Jesus we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To whit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy Kingdom.

Colossians 2:9-10 For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power.

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be Glory and Dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they peirced.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the Church of God, which He hath Purchased with His Own Blood.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I guess all of the above makes no sense to you, there is a remedy to spiritual blindness, and it is called the Holy Ghost.


God Bless!

[oneGOD]

Hi,

Note that all of them are what people said about Jesus not what actually Jesus said. I can have people believe in me as God and write about me...no big deal here...what matters is what I really say not what othes say about me.

[Omega]

And it is written:Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. Matthew 22:29

And are not scripture in the OT proven to be true about Jesus?Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken. Luke 24:25

The scriptures are inspired by the Holy Ghost when the Spirit of God moved them. The same with what the scriptures say in the NT. You disregard what men filled with the Spirit of God wrote, if so then you might as well disregard the entire Bible.

You try so very hard to disregard what the spirit speaketh, why?

Why are you posting on this website? It is God who is trying to lead you to Him and away from false doctrines which He clearly forewarned us ahead of time by men filled with the Holy Spirit.

It is written: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
John 16:13

He will guide you into all truth:There is no debate over this if you have the Holy Spirit. And you can continue to say that the Holy Spirit is just an excuse of knowing the truth, but it is the reason why you continue to fail to realise the truth.

He will show you things to come:Not only prophecy but forewarns and reminds us of the snares and traps the Devil has set for those who reject the precious Gospel of Salvation.

The Loving arm of the Lord is reaching forth towards you, will you reach back?

God Bless!

[oneGOD]

Hi Omega,

Just where in the OT Jesus is called is to be GOD. quote me one or two.

You believe that those men are inspired by God when they are not. You can not prove that Jesus is God from what he said because Jesus never ever said HE IS GOD, and I have shown above, you can go and read them and try to answer them.

Tell me, if these men were inspired by God, would they not at least agree on what Jesus really said when he died? or what he said when he was in court?Would they not agree on whom Peter denied knowing Jesus? and many many more...they seem to tell four different versions of the same story with no similarities, if they were inspired, would they not at least agree on what Jesus really said? They didn't....so a basic and simple conclusion is that they are not inspired, but they wrote and depended on account witnesses.

Now if they believed that this human was God, then it is up to them...what matters is what Jesus said.period. not what others think he is.

I will again quote this which refites Jesus calling himself God:

so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us

[Omega]

You still do not get it do you?

Once again with Peter denying Jesus, it is written:But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:32

Did Peter have the Holy Spirit then?

It is also written:Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:John 20:21,22

Did this take place before or after Peter denied Jesus?

Now go and read what is written by the Apostles after they had received the Holy Spirit, how they performed miracles and preached unto the world in Truth.

When you stand before the throne of God on Judgment Day and He tells you each and every time you rejected the Gospel, you will have NO excuse.

The Lord is coming back to take His collection of True children of God with Him, will you be a part of that collection?

God Bless!

[oneGOD]

Hi Omega,

Too bad you can't defend what Jesus said, all you do is quote what others after Jesus said about him and tried to explain his divinity.

Did Peter have the Holy Spirit then?

Let's see, I will stick to one example, and show me how these people are inspired please.

To whom did Peter deny knowing Jesus?
(1) In Matthew peter denied Jesus to a servant girl, another girl, and then a crowd of people.
(2) In mark he denied Jesus to a servant girl, the same girl again, and then a crowd of people.
(3) In luke he denied Jesus to a servant girl, a man, and then another man.
(4) In John he denied Jesus to a girl at the door, several anonymous persons, one of the high priest's servants.

As we clearly see those inspired people from God failed to know to whom Peter denied knowing Jesus.

Go again through my posts above and prove me wrong.

Do not quote me what those people though of Jesus, what matters is what he said.

[Omega]

Let me let you in on something:

The reason why this new generation of children of God know so much about the TRUTH is because the Coming of the LORD Draws nigh.

Do you know what that means?

If you feel the Holy Ghost tugging at you, then don't deny it and be deceived. Listen...

God Bless!

[Alpha]

Hi Omega,

Too bad you can't defend what Jesus said, all you do is quote what others after Jesus said about him and tried to explain his divinity.

Did Peter have the Holy Spirit then?

Let's see, I will stick to one example, and show me how these people are inspired please.

To whom did Peter deny knowing Jesus?
(1) In Matthew peter denied Jesus to a servant girl, another girl, and then a crowd of people.
(2) In mark he denied Jesus to a servant girl, the same girl again, and then a crowd of people.
(3) In luke he denied Jesus to a servant girl, a man, and then another man.
(4) In John he denied Jesus to a girl at the door, several anonymous persons, one of the high priest's servants.

As we clearly see those inspired people from God failed to know to whom Peter denied knowing Jesus.

Go again through my posts above and prove me wrong.

Do not quote me what those people though of Jesus, what matters is what he said.

Hey OneGOD,

In the Old testament, there were various prophecies on Christ. Some telling us He would be sacrificed and a couple prophecying Him to be the Son of God. Some of the prophecies were both literal and spiritual. For example, Christ referred to the prophecy about Him in the Psalms when David said "The LORD said to my LORD sit at my right hand........." Now when Jesus revealed this prophecy He specifically said that David said this in the spirit. So you have to realize that the reason you do not accept some Old Testament prophecies on Christ is because they deal with the Holy Spirit revealing it to you, and you believe the Holy Spirit was the Angel Gabriel (correct me if i'm wrong).

As for "whom did Peter deny knowing Jesus?"-- The damsel in Matthew refers to one of the maids of the high priest in Mark 14:66. And in John 18:16, 17, this damsel was the one who was at the door to let Peter in. In Mark, it was not the same girl as you(or the site you copied it from) state. It was another maid girl. The passage does not say the same maid saw Peter, it says "and a maid saw him again." As for the passage in Luke, you have two ways you can look at this, either Peter was referring to "man" as a human being and not necessarily a male (I'm sure people have looked at females and said "man what are you doing?") OR you can look at the other accounts and see that the maid brought other people with her, and Peter denied Jesus in front of the maid and the other people(including the man). There is no contradiction in this. It's just like a puzzle you have to put together. If all the gospels were exactly the same people would be screaming "conspiracy!" So you can't please everybody no matter what you believe.

[Omega]

onegod{Naturalman},

You seem not to understand the things of the Spirit, let me show you an example:

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Revelation 21:22,23

1st:It says that Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are it's temple, they are the temple not temples.{The temple is not complete without the Lamb}Understand?
2nd:The Glory of God did lighten it, and the lamb is the light{God lights the entire city with the Lamb as it's source of light}One is not without the other, IF you understand?

It is written:Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

It is also written:Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

How is a lamp to be lit without a flame of fire?
But there is an eternal fire within the lamp that never extinguishes, and without that eternal fire the lamp cannot continue to be lit. But with God these are eternal, without end nor beginning, understand?

Furthermore, and the light sends forth His everlasting light{Holy Ghost}to places that needs to be lit{Men and Women who are in the dark seeking the True Light}then becoming Children of God because they have now received light{Holy Ghost} which is now burning within them forever!!!

Do you understand any of this my friend?

For one to truly understand the depths and meaning of this one must be born of the Spirit{Born from above}.

Do you want to understand this? because God is drawing you to Him with His Spirit!

Do you know how many times Jesus said,"UNDERSTAND?"


Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Matthew 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

Matthew 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

Matthew 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

Matthew 16:9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?

Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


UNDERSTAND?

GOD BLESS!

[oneGOD]

Hi ALpha,

Holy Spirit revealing it to you, and you believe the Holy Spirit was the Angel Gabriel (correct me if i'm wrong).

The Holy Spirit could take on other things, I need to check this and know what I'm writing.

If all the gospels were exactly the same people would be screaming "conspiracy!" So you can't please everybody no matter what you believe.

Alpha, I'm not saying that they have to be the same word to word, at least they should agree and they don't. It would be considered a conspiracy if they were identical word to word, I agree with you here.

Anyway, I did not copy that from any site man, I would provide a link if I did. Read througth it again, you'll see the contradiction, no reason to harmonize it.

One more example: What exactly did Jesus say before he died? Another example of disagreement among your gospls==> not inspired.

Revelation 21:22,23

Omega, this post is about Jesus being God, I already told you that what matters to me is what Jesus said when he was alive, not what others said about him. You claimed them to be inspired, I showed you some contradictions which prove the opposite. How aboutyou go back through my post and defend Jesus not calling himself God?

It is also written:Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

This is how they harmonize it, and make it acceptable that eventhough Jesus never called himself God, they could convince themselves that he is through Mystery.

I do understand...lol.... it's not that hard.
Go through my post and defend it...I would like to see a straight answer still.

so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us

[Alpha]

Alpha, I'm not saying that they have to be the same word to word, at least they should agree and they don't. It would be considered a conspiracy if they were identical word to word, I agree with you here.

Anyway, I did not copy that from any site man, I would provide a link if I did. Read througth it again, you'll see the contradiction, no reason to harmonize it.

One more example: What exactly did Jesus say before he died? Another example of disagreement among your gospls==> not inspired.

Wait a second. Why are you continuing to say it is a contradiction when I just explained it? It is not a contradiction. If you can't accept the reasoning Christians give of the alleged contradictions in the Holy Bible, then why should anyone accept the reasons Muslims give for the contradictions in the Qu'ran? As far as I see, the same reasoning is involved. You're telling me not to harmonize the biblical texts? This is something you HAVE to do when there are different witnesses. For example, if I want to know who stole my watch:

Person A witnesses it and says my friend Marty opened my locker where the watch was. Then person B says a student named Linda was seen wearing my watch in the hallway. Finally, Person C says a student by the nickname "Scorpion" was showing my watch to other students in his class. Now, to some this might be a contradiction. But how do you know the event did not happen in the following sequence:

My watch fell out of my locker into the hallway when I was digging for books and rushing to class--Linda finds it and wears it. She then shows it to her friends and they encourage her to do the right thing--her male friend "Scorpion" volunteers to ask the class whose watch it is, and when no one answers, he brings it to the lost and found--On the way to the lost and found, Marty sees him and says, "That's my friend's watch!"--Marty takes the watch and puts it in my locker, knowing my locker combination.

Now, there are so many different ways to tell this story. The last thing someone should do is say the accounts given by the witnesses are not true because they all "contradict" one another. The witnesses of the gospels are not even as complicated as the example that I gave. And the example I gave showed that there was no contradiction.

[Scorpion]

OneGod ... here is what Jesus all comes to ... You have 2 choices to make regarding Jesus of History ...

1. Either he is completely right about everything that he has said in the Bible and on the cross etc etc and during his ministry and Died and Resurrected as he himself prophecied ... or ... Choice 2 ...

2. He is a lunatic, a complete liar and a false prophet.

Now the Quran and the Bible both agree that Jesus was sinless ... So if he was sinless, that means he could not have lied. Which means everything he said was true, and so was all the Prophecies about the Death and the resurrection prophecied in the Old Testament. If your choice is number 1 ... Then also all the Old Testament prophets who prophecied about Jesus are also all liars and false prophets.

Now tell me ... Which choice is it you would like to mak? 1 or 2?

If 1, then your in fault and haven't read the Scriptures in Context enough ot haven't understand anything properly.

Please post your questions about any supposed contradictions or anything you have on your mind regarding Jesus, and we'll answer it ... one, by one.

Before you reply, tell me what is Jesus like, choice 1 or 2?

[Zombie]

Jesus himself taught when he said 'the Father is greater than I am' (John 14:28).
He can't be God according to this verse John 8:42+:
... "came from G-d, neither came I of myself, but he that sent me."
(Coming from God yet not himself is specifically saying he isn't God.)
Scriptures state that Jesus has One who is his God, so how can he be God? Revelation 3:12
I JOHN 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. (that means they didn't see Jesus "AS" God either which means something is fiendishly wrong here)
"The Scripture calleth the name of the Messiah, because He is the Mediator through whom we shall get the righteousness of the Lord." (Proof Messiah is just a liaison between the Lord and his people and not the Lord himself, so he can't be God.)
"No one is good-except God alone." {Mark 10:18}
God can’t be tempted by Satan, so if Jesus is supposed to be God then why the story of Satan trying to tempt him and offer him things?
If the Hell is the farthest from God then God can’t descend there, so why did Jesus descend to Hell after death, as expressed in the Apostles Creed also Acts 2:27.
They say JESUS' last words on the cross (even though scripture says he was hung on a tree in acts 5:30 , and the church didn't use the symbol of death "the cross" until 300 AD.) "My God my God why hast thou forsaken me?" If he was God then was he talking to himself? Or better yet I thought he died for our sins but that doesn’t sound like, some sacrifice, willingly. Answer to why he would speak in such a manner can be found in Ezekiel.
Why Jesus Died:
He died because of our sins, not for them and because it was warned to all people who would stake claim to being the creator in this passage:
Ezekiel 28:9-10
Will you say before him that slays you, "I am God"? but you are a man, and no god, in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the deaths of the uncircumcised, by the hand of Gentiles: for I have spoken it! Ironically, the crucifixion, stake, or hanging that followed was indeed, the "death of the uncircumcised", a punishment issued by Romans and typically reserved only for their enemies.

How can Jesus be "Suffering Servant of GOD", yet still be God? What about the GOSPEL OF THOMAS the Church tried to destroy. IT EMPHASIZES JESUS' SAYINGS, CASTING HIM AS A WISE MAN, BUT NOT THE SON OF GOD.
"...My Chosen One...will bring justice to the nations...will not falter or be discouraged until He establishes justice on earth..." (Isaiah 42:1-4). Where has he done this and how can one be chosen by God yet still be God?

If Jesus was part of God, why did he pray to God? Why would he talk about God in a second person tense, like when in the woods praying saying "God, if you can lidt this cup", or talking about the "Son of Man" in Luke 6:5?

Luke 22:69 "But from now on the Son of man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God." (proof they are separate people or else you're saying God is beside himself?)
2Cor 4:4.. he's supposed to be in the “likeness of God”, but not G0D.
Rev 1:13 ... one (Jesus) like unto the son of man
Like: a person or thing that closely resembles another they say about true Christians are those who are in his outlook or activities resembles Jesus, thus Jesus is not the God nor son of man. Jesus' outlook or activities resemble him (son of man) by their own standards.
If "The Son" and "The Father" are the same, then why when faced with tough questions did Jesus say only his father knew those things like in Mark 13:32.
When Jesus said: "through me is the way to my father", then why is it wrong for me to go to God directly if they are supposedly one in the same?
Hebrews 3:1 "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, [even] Jesus"; 3:2 who was faithful to him that appointed him....(If someone appointed him, then he isn’t God)

Hebrews 5:6, 5:10, & 6:20 say Jesus is after the Order of Melchizedek (another name for Archangel Michael),which means he can't be God or even in ranks with the angelic legion. People deny the meaning of this verse, deceptively making their twisted interpretations, but when you put it together with this other verse then you have undeniable proof, because God is not lesser then angels. (Heb 2:7,9) You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 9 but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels,
Which leads us to this verse which seperate the God & Messiah as 2 different entities: Micah [3] “He will stand up and lead with the strength of HASHEM, with the majesty of the Name of HASHEM his God. They will settle [in peace], for at that time he will be great to the ends of the earth.” (The only one carrying the name of his God Hashem is another name for archangel Michael who is “at the throne of God.”) Another verse says The messiah will have God's Name in him, which means they are not the same and also fact is, Jesus did not fit, but Michael does have God's Name in him as his name means one who is as(or like)God. Furthermore, is the verse stating the names will be from the Bible, so Jesus who isn't in the Old Testament or Torah, can't be the Messiah.
If he was God, wouldn't he be smart enough to, take into consideration, peoples lack of communication and comprehension skills along with words being as good as the interpretation. Wouldn't God know that wrong interp. could destroy man, so since that was not in Jesus' Knowledge, that should show you he was just a man. otherwise this would have come with strict manuals on how to spread his Gospel.
If it was known since his birth that he was God then why does no-one, especially his followers, know what date he was born? Three wisemen not wise enough to keep records? The excuse from some is they couldn't, but they have moon cycles of that era in predated text that shows they did keep track of dates. Why is there no recording of the exact date he died and where? Why is his remains not found, wouldn’t you treat his remains as special and know where they lye? If man has built great pyramids and tombs why would they not bury him something special? Wouldn’t you have a diary on someone so special? If you have none of these, then how can you trust any record of anything pertaining to his existence, since those recording were done so far from the date of the events? Who’s kidding who?

"Claiming to be wise, they became fools..... because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever!" Rom. 1:22, 25


Unsderstand the obvious, think with the mind, not your tradition, pride, or emotions
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/9623/notgod.html

[oneGOD]

Hi Alpha,

You have just said that they were dependent on account witnesses yourself, besides, you omitted John.

One more exmaple. what did Jesus really said before he died?

Hi Scorp,

Maybe you can add No3 to your list:

3) He is a prophet, jews tried to kill him, they thought they did. And as we all know Jesus never ever called himself God in the four gospels.

that means he could not have lied

Yes he did not lie. Anyway, you know they are all translated from Aramiac, tell me, do you have such a Gospel, or you have a translated verion full of errors?

[Alpha]

Jesus himself taught when he said 'the Father is greater than I am' (John 14:2.
He can't be God according to this verse John 8:42+:
... "came from G-d, neither came I of myself, but he that sent me."
(Coming from God yet not himself is specifically saying he isn't God.)
Scriptures state that Jesus has One who is his God, so how can he be God?

Christ said the Father is greater than him, but if you want to know the Father, you have to accept the sacrifice of His Son. Jesus said, he is the only way to the Father. Also, Christ humbled Himself: Phillippians 2:5-8>Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I JOHN 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. (that means they didn't see Jesus "AS" God either which means something is fiendishly wrong here)
"The Scripture calleth the name of the Messiah, because He is the Mediator through whom we shall get the righteousness of the Lord." (Proof Messiah is just a liaison between the Lord and his people and not the Lord himself, so he can't be God.)

Why didn't you post what Christ said: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18).

Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:46).

Also, Christ said if you see Him you've seen the Father(John 14:9), but no one has seen God in His spiritual form, but through His Son Jesus Christ.

"No one is good-except God alone." {Mark 10:18}

When someone called Jesus "good master" in the previous verse, Christ responded by saying no one is good but God. Christ is saying if you are going to call me good, you have to realize that I am God. Also, like Phillippians says, Christ humbled Himself, so even if He wasn't referring to Himself as you claim, that does not mean that He wasn't God.

God can’t be tempted by Satan, so if Jesus is supposed to be God then why the story of Satan trying to tempt him and offer him things?

Christ was both God and man. Although He was tempted, He did not sin. Also, where do Muslims get off saying no one can be both God and man? Where is that said by God Himself? If God can make creatures with one body and many heads(refer to Ezekiel 1) then why can't God Himself take on two natures?

If the Hell is the farthest from God then God can’t descend there, so why did Jesus descend to Hell after death, as expressed in the Apostles Creed also Acts 2:27.

Are you telling me that the presence of God cannot be in Hell? Then how would God carry out punishment in Hell if He can't be there? The reason Christ descended into hell was to preach to the spirits in prison. (1 Peter 3)

They say JESUS' last words on the cross (even though scripture says he was hung on a tree in acts 5:30 , and the church didn't use the symbol of death "the cross" until 300 AD.) "My God my God why hast thou forsaken me?" If he was God then was he talking to himself? Or better yet I thought he died for our sins but that doesn’t sound like, some sacrifice, willingly. Answer to why he would speak in such a manner can be found in Ezekiel.

A tree is just figurative language to mean the cross. What was the cross made out of? An example of this is, in stead of people saying "money" some say "paper" because money is made out of paper. There are many examples of this. Also, when Christ died on the cross, he was seperated from the Father to bear the sins of the world. But before Christ was put on the cross, He gave His life willingly and said if He wanted to be saved, all He had to do was call upon legions of angels (Matthew 26:53).

Why Jesus Died:
He died because of our sins, not for them and because it was warned to all people who would stake claim to being the creator in this passage:
Ezekiel 28:9-10
Will you say before him that slays you, "I am God"? but you are a man, and no god, in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the deaths of the uncircumcised, by the hand of Gentiles: for I have spoken it! Ironically, the crucifixion, stake, or hanging that followed was indeed, the "death of the uncircumcised", a punishment issued by Romans and typically reserved only for their enemies.

If a man is about to be slayed by another man and there is nothing he can do to save himself, then he is not God. But Christ could have clearly saved Himself. That is why His death is called a sacrifice.

How can Jesus be "Suffering Servant of GOD", yet still be God? What about the GOSPEL OF THOMAS the Church tried to destroy. IT EMPHASIZES JESUS' SAYINGS, CASTING HIM AS A WISE MAN, BUT NOT THE SON OF GOD.
"...My Chosen One...will bring justice to the nations...will not falter or be discouraged until He establishes justice on earth..." (Isaiah 42:1-4). Where has he done this and how can one be chosen by God yet still be God?

The gospel of Thomas failed the test of authenticity. Their is a measure in which manuscripts must be judged, and that measure is instituted in scripture by God Himself. Don't you Muslims judge which Hadiths are true and which are false? As for the Isaiah passage you just quoted from, Christ was not discouraged by the mission of dying on the cross and when Christ returns He will establish justice on earth. And Christ can be chosen by God and be God at the sametime. That's just the way it is, and that is not illogical by the standards of God whatsoever. Jesus is god incarnate. The Father sends Jesus to die on the cross for the sins of man and in order for you to get to the Father, you have to accept Christ's sacrifice.

If Jesus was part of God, why did he pray to God? Why would he talk about God in a second person tense, like when in the woods praying saying "God, if you can lidt this cup", or talking about the "Son of Man" in Luke 6:5?

Christ is both God and man. How is Christ praying to the Father, who is spirit, mean that he is not the Son of God? When we pray we are to pray to the Father in Jesus' name. Why is this so hard to understand? You want to get too deep and not accept it the way it is. When someone says 2+2=4, do you ask them why? No, you just accept it because that's how it is. The Father sends the Son, the Son prays to the Father, the Son dies on the cross, the Son sends the Holy spirit to bear witness to these events. This is just the way it is.

Luke 22:69 "But from now on the Son of man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God." (proof they are separate people or else you're saying God is beside himself?)

If you want to say this, then fine. but in order for you to know the Father, you have to accept the sacrifice of His Son. And when you pray to the Father, it has to be in Jesus' name. The Father is God in His essence, Jesus is God in the flesh, and the Holy Spirit is God revealing the truth in man.

In time I will respond to the rest of your post(if someone else doesn't).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Alpha,

You have just said that they were dependent on account witnesses yourself, besides, you omitted John.

One more exmaple. what did Jesus really said before he died?

The scriptures do not contradict themselves. You have to put the pieces of the puzzle together. One witness might give an account for what someone said, and another witness might give an account of what the same person said, but mention whatelse the person had said.

[oneGOD]

Christ said the Father is greater than him, but if you want to know the Father, you have to accept the sacrifice of His Son. Jesus said, he is the only way to the Father. Also, Christ humbled Himself: Phillippians 2:5-8>Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Also the prophets said that you can know God and get closer to him by knowing them, this is a perfect legit. statement made by all prophets, it doesn't show that Jesus is God at all.

However, you still fail to read what Jesus said about himself and you would rather read what others said about Jesus, yet you always forget to read this:

so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us

When someone called Jesus "good master" in the previous verse, Christ responded by saying no one is good but God. Christ is saying if you are going to call me good, you have to realize that I am God.

Way to go man, this is called self deception, this can't be in anyway Jesus calling himself God at all, he strictly said that no one is good but God when he was called good.

Again, how funny it is to write that God humbeled himself and made himself a servant. You don't read what Jesus said, you read what others said.

Bottom line, Jesus never called himself God AT ALL.

Christ was both God and man. Although He was tempted, He did not sin.

Hello.... Satan went to God and asked him to jump off a clif, so taht if he doesn't die, he will give him the earth. How pethatic does this sound? Satan offering to give God earth? that's just a flawed logic.

Again,What did Jesus said before he died? ==> Those writers are not inspired.

Where did Jesus claim to be God (saying he is GOD?

[Omega]

Also the prophets said that you can know God and get closer to him by knowing them, this is a perfect legit. statement made by all prophets, it doesn't show that Jesus is God at all.

However, you still fail to read what Jesus said about himself and you would rather read what others said about Jesus, yet you always forget to read this:

Want to know God personally and develop a personal relationship with Him?

It is written:All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matthew 11:27

Hello.... Satan went to God and asked him to jump off a clif, so taht if he doesn't die, he will give him the earth. How pethatic does this sound? Satan offering to give God earth? that's just a flawed logic.

Why would Jesus want to rule a fallen world riddled and filled with SIN?

It is written:Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36


It may seem kind of odd how God would deliver the kingdoms of this world to Satan doesn't it?

Just as How it is written:And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.Revelation 20:1-3

God uses even evil to accomplish His will if you understand it? As in the above scripture, why would God release Satan after the 1000 year reign of Christ?

Because to truly separate those who love God with all their heart and those who only speak it with their mouths.

The kingdoms of this world have been delivered unto Satan, for it is written: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4

In the END who will you serve? The god of this world or the God of all ages and Eternal Lord Christ.

Think about it carefully, because the time is almost at hand. Continuous rejection will lead to a permanent hardening of the heart which is irreversible and then you will be handed over to Satan as his slave who will have you in bondage with him for all of eternity.

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. Matthew 13:19

[Omega]

Luke 22:69 "But from now on the Son of man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God." (proof they are separate people or else you're saying God is beside himself?)

If you understand,The right hand symbolizes all authority and all power.

Zombie said:Claiming to be wise, they became fools..... because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever!" Rom. 1:22, 25


This my friend is referring to and example such as the Golden Calf, and furthermore JESUS IS NOT A CREATION HE IS THE CREATOR!!!

It is written:Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

It is written: Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Philippians 2:11

Dear Zombie, if you continue to reject the Truth then eventually you will become a spiritual zombie.

And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Matthew 13:4

[oneGOD]

Too bad non of my claims have been answered about Jesus's divinity. I quote you what he said and you quote me what others said about him.

[Omega]

Too bad non of my claims have been answered about Jesus's divinity. I quote you what he said and you quote me what others said about him.

All your claims have been answered and so have the claims of your friends or brothers if you call like to call them that.

First of all you seem not to understand the parables of Jesus, for they are for those with undersdtanding and wisdom. If you understood the parables then you would understand that Jesus is God, and that He is revealing it to you and to others if you hear with your ears and see with your eyes and Understand with your HEART.

This will sum it all up regardless if you believe it or not:One must understand with the Spirit and not understand as the natural man attempts to understand God.


It is written and said again:All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matthew 11:27

You muslims believe that you know who God really is, but to us, we know who God is but not only that, He is our Father and we have a personal relationship with Him and the Son who is the revelation of God.

Why can't you unserstand this? Satan desires those that are of men and those that are worldly, that is why He nor anyone who follow him cannot understand those of the Spirit, In his{Satan}words lies the desires of men and not those of God{Spiritual}

Maybe God will draw Him to you with His Spirit someday onegod if He is wiling, and He always is. The question is are you willing?

God Bless!

[Alpha]

Also the prophets said that you can know God and get closer to him by knowing them, this is a perfect legit. statement made by all prophets, it doesn't show that Jesus is God at all.

However, you still fail to read what Jesus said about himself and you would rather read what others said about Jesus, yet you always forget to read this:

so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us

The prophets made prophecies on Jesus. The Bible is a Jesus book, this is all about Jesus here. If you followed the prophets, you were following God's promise in the Messiah's sacrifice. Also, I have no problem with you stating the verse where all Christians are one with the Father and the Son, just as how the Father and Son are one. That's fine. But what about quoting other passages like John 1:1,14>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Also, how about when the Father called the Son "God", why don't you mention these passages, Hebrews 1:8>But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Way to go man, this is called self deception, this can't be in anyway Jesus calling himself God at all, he strictly said that no one is good but God when he was called good.

Again, how funny it is to write that God humbeled himself and made himself a servant. You don't read what Jesus said, you read what others said.

Bottom line, Jesus never called himself God AT ALL.

Christ is God incarnate. The whole of biblical scripture clearly teaches this, therefore it is the right interpretation to say when Jesus said only God is good, He was saying if you are going to call me good, then realize that I am God. Self deception is interpreting it in meaning Jesus is not God, because you are ignoring the other passages in which it says He is God. Also, Christ claimed to be the Son of God when He was on trial. But then you Muslims switch it around and say Christ did not say He was the Son of God, He was saying that Pilate said He was the Son of God. If this is the case, why was He asked the question? Unless He was claiming to be the Son of God all this time. Also, when Christ answered the question, He was still claiming to be the Son of God, because when you read the account in Matthew, after Jesus answered the question, He was still accussed of blasphemy. Finally, Christ did calim to be God, because He qouted David twice (Matthew 22, Mark 12) and said if He was David's son, why did David call him LORD. LORD meaning God, because when you read the pslam, it says the LORD said to my LORD, relating to the Father and Son.

If "The Son" and "The Father" are the same, then why when faced with tough questions did Jesus say only his father knew those things like in Mark 13:32.
When Jesus said: "through me is the way to my father", then why is it wrong for me to go to God directly if they are supposedly one in the same?
Hebrews 3:1 "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, [even] Jesus"; 3:2 who was faithful to him that appointed him....(If someone appointed him, then he isn’t God)

The Father and the Son are not the same. In order for you to recieve the Father, you have to recieve the sacrifice of His Son. Why do you make this so hard? If you go to God directly that is not good enough, because the remission of sins is done by the shedding of blood. In the Old Testament they shed the blood of lambs and their sin was forgiven. In the New Testament, Christ's blood was shed for sins. In the OT if you prayed to God and did not make the blood sacrifices then God would not forgive of your sin because you would be disobeying Him. If you pray to God today and do not accept the blood sacrifice of His Son, then your sins will not be forgiven.

Hebrews 5:6, 5:10, & 6:20 say Jesus is after the Order of Melchizedek (another name for Archangel Michael),which means he can't be God or even in ranks with the angelic legion. People deny the meaning of this verse, deceptively making their twisted interpretations, but when you put it together with this other verse then you have undeniable proof, because God is not lesser then angels. (Heb 2:7,9) You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 9 but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels,

You didn't finish reading the rest of the passage did you? it says>But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

In other words, on the cross Christ suffered for sinners and was seperated from the Father at that point. The passage is only referring to Jesus being lower than angels at the time of his suffering(Note: He willingly gave up His life, it was not taken from Him). But when Christ resurrected, what does the scripture say? Matthew 28:18>All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

If it was known since his birth that he was God then why does no-one, especially his followers, know what date he was born?

Jesus says in revelation 1:8>I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

[Omega]

Since some cannot understand by the Spirit i will explain it to the natural men. Because there are some who cannot understand the things of the spirit as of yet and were all here to learn the truth, correct?

It is written:Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58

Jesus clearly apllied the name of The Almighty and Jealous God to himself here, I am is transalted,"EGO EMI"Which Jesus himself applied the very name of God to himself, that is why they took up stones to cast at him for blasphemy.

Even they understood His claim to be God, but people today seem to be blind to it!?

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:13

Furthermore God states:For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Exodus 34:14

Furthermore it is written:For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I am sure that you are familiar with this verse. The term begotten, are we all begotten Sons of God,

The term begotten is translated,"monogenes" in Greek which means unique or one of a kind, are we all one of a kind? Or is God one of a kind?

Does that bring any clarity?

God Bless!

[oneGOD]

Hi Omega,

Jesus clearly apllied the name of The Almighty and Jealous God to himself here, I am is transalted,"EGO EMI"Which Jesus himself applied the very name of God to himself, that is why they took up stones to cast at him for blasphemy.

Why don't you read the OT and see where other prophets are using the same concept? or words?

Furthermore it is written:For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I am sure that you are familiar with this verse. The term begotten, are we all begotten Sons of God,

Again, that's the mysterious author who wrote that about Jesus, anyway, this verse does not define a unity between God and his son, nor ity says that the son is GOD.

All I ask for is for you to go to my upper posts and answer them one by one and refute my claim by what Jesus said, quote it and show me the answer for it, that's all I ask for.

Hi ALpha,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

Again, Jesus didn't say that, but whoever wrote that gospel wrote that.

Christ is God incarnate. The whole of biblical scripture clearly teaches this,

I have no doubt about it, but when I check what Jesus said or supposedly said, it's completely the opposite.

Jesus said,m why call me good when no one is good but God?
Any normal person who read this would realize the following facts:
1) Jesus doesn't like to be called good.
2) The only good one is God.

You somehow made it look the opposite, I will leave that to people to judge over it, and I'm sure you don't make any sense there anyway.

Christ claimed to be the Son of God when He was on trial.

Umm...let's see here, quote me the four accounts in the court scene, and show me how they all agree, which I know they don't. Jesus in one account said: You say I am. in others said Yes, and in others it's different, which can only lead to the basic conclusion that they only followed conjuncture.

Jesus still called God HIS GOD and no one answered this.

[Alpha]

Jesus still called God HIS GOD and no one answered this.

Christ called God His God, referring to the Father. And you ignored the rest of my post in which I gave you a couple of passages that Christ referred to the Psalms when David called Christ LORD. David said, "The LORD said to my LORD........" which refers to the Father and the Son.

I have no doubt about it, but when I check what Jesus said or supposedly said, it's completely the opposite.

Jesus said,m why call me good when no one is good but God?
Any normal person who read this would realize the following facts:
1) Jesus doesn't like to be called good.
2) The only good one is God.

You somehow made it look the opposite, I will leave that to people to judge over it, and I'm sure you don't make any sense there anyway.

Again, let me repeat myself: Since the Bible in it's context teaches that Christ is God, and Christ Himself claims that He is God (1 example was when He quoted David), then the best way to interpret the passage when Christ says "only God is good" is to say Christ means if you are going to call me good, then realize that I am God. That makes perfect sense.

Again, Jesus didn't say that, but whoever wrote that gospel wrote that.

Since you are so concerned about what Christ said, then why don't you take these words of His into account:

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6).

The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

These are just two (there are many more) examples of what Christ said in which Muslims don't believe. If you are so concerned about what Christ said, believe those things first, then we can discuss whether Christ is God or not.

Umm...let's see here, quote me the four accounts in the court scene, and show me how they all agree, which I know they don't. Jesus in one account said: You say I am. in others said Yes, and in others it's different, which can only lead to the basic conclusion that they only followed conjuncture.

Jesus still called God HIS GOD and no one answered this.

Why don't you look them up and do reseasrch yourself. I already know they agree. You're the one having the problem in believing they agree.

[oneGOD]

Hi ALpha,

You want an asnwer to this I AM?

A blind man referred to himself as "I am" in Jn.9:9
Paul said "By the grace of God, I AM WHAT I AM" (1 Cor.15:10).

Are these two gods as well?

One can look at the login here and see the contradiction:
If Jesus said he is God as you claimed then why does he call God HIS GOD?
You see the common sense here?

Also, Jesus was not the first to call God his father:

The name Eliab means "my God is Father".It's a common Jewish name also. So Jesus calling God his father is no big deal actually. Can you deny this? I guess not.

Again, let me repeat myself: Since the Bible in it's context teaches that Christ is God, and Christ Himself claims that He is God

Hello..... OT never teaches that Jesus is God. in the NT, it's what people thought Jesus was, as demonstrated from Jesus's words, he did not claim to be God since he called God his GOD.So your logic is based on what others believed in Jesus, not what Jesus really said about himself.
Personally, when I read what Jesus said, I do believe he never claimed to be God.

am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

All prophets are the way to God, read the OT again, maybe you are missing something. Jesus's words here are not new in any sense, it's been used by all prophets.

The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

well, this one doesn't say he is God, this is a new topic.

then we can discuss whether Christ is God or not

Ok, about the court scene:
In one version he said : Yes I am
Other version he said : You say I am

What exactly did he say, and how can they miss such an important statement? If they can't even agre on Jesus's words, how are they inspired, I could never understand that.

[Alpha]

Hi ALpha,

You want an asnwer to this I AM?

A blind man referred to himself as "I am" in Jn.9:9
Paul said "By the grace of God, I AM WHAT I AM" (1 Cor.15:10).

Are these two gods as well?

I needed a good laugh oneGOD. Maybe you should read the context of when all three (Jesus, the blind man, and Paul) said "I AM." The blind man and Paul were not stoned for saying "I AM." Also, if you did not notice, when the blind man and Paul said the words "I am" it did not follow the statement "before Abraham was......" Oh, before I forget to mention, I like the way you capitalized the I AM verse of paul, making it seem as if it is done in the same emphasis of when Christ said it. When Paul said it, those words were not capitalized in the Bible.

One can look at the login here and see the contradiction:
If Jesus said he is God as you claimed then why does he call God HIS GOD?
You see the common sense here?

Also, Jesus was not the first to call God his father:

The name Eliab means "my God is Father". It's a common Jewish name also. So Jesus calling God his father is no big deal actually. Can you deny this? I guess not.

People who called God there father before Christ, were they claiming to be one with the Father? Also, people who called God their father before christ, did they ever claim to be the only one to declare Him? Did they ever say they were the only way towards Him and anyother way is a broad way to destruction? So, this goes back to my original argument, which is, when Christ said "my God" he was referring to the Father.

[Alpha]

......Continuing:

Hello..... OT never teaches that Jesus is God. in the NT, it's what people thought Jesus was, as demonstrated from Jesus's words, he did not claim to be God since he called God his GOD.So your logic is based on what others believed in Jesus, not what Jesus really said about himself.
Personally, when I read what Jesus said, I do believe he never claimed to be God.

Do I need to quote Jesus' interpretation of David's psalm in the Old Testament for the third time? Do we need to have another "Eternal God" debate?

All prophets are the way to God, read the OT again, maybe you are missing something. Jesus's words here are not new in any sense, it's been used by all prophets.

All the prophets? Did all the prophtets say they were the ONLY way to the Father? Did all the prophets say to pray in their name when praying to God? Were all the prophets used as a sacrifice for the sins of man? As I recall, the prophets performed rituals symbolizing the sacrifice of Christ instead of being sacrificed themselves. You don't have to give me all, give me one prophet from the OT that makes the same claims that Christ makes which I mentioned.

Ok, about the court scene:
In one version he said : Yes I am
Other version he said : You say I am

What exactly did he say, and how can they miss such an important statement? If they can't even agre on Jesus's words, how are they inspired, I could never understand that.

This has nothing to do with word for word. This has to do with meaning. It's an absurd idea to think just because the two accounts don't say the same exact thing, they are not inspired. In the gospel which Christ says "You say I am" does Christ (thorughout any part of that gospel) claim to be the Son of God? Yes. Also, in that gospel when He said "You say I am" what was the response? (Luke 22:71).

[oneGOD]

Hi ALpha,

Maybe you should read the context of when all three (Jesus, the blind man, and Paul) said "I AM." The blind man and Paul were not stoned for saying "I AM."

Or maybe you should read the OT and see who else declared himself to be before Abraham.

Anyway,
Jeremiah 1:5
3 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.
Also, read the proverbs of Solomon talking about himself and how he was before earth was.

The context of that is that Jesus was there before Abraham:
also, if we check the refernces we find this:

John 8:58 - NIV, NAB - in Epistle of Ignatius to the Tarsians

And how, again, could such an one declare: "Before Abraham was, I am?”
John 8:58 - NIV, NAB- in Irenaeus Against Heresies Book IV

But the Word of God did not accept of the friendship of Abraham, as though He stood in need of it, for He was perfect from the beginning ("Before Abraham was," He says, "I am"

John 8:58 - NIV, NAB- in Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus
And as He was the son of David, so was He also the Lord of David. And as He was from Abraham, so did He also exist before Abraham.

You can find those refernces here:
http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B43C001.htm

So we see the inconsistence here, what do you think? More denial?

People who called God there father before Christ, were they claiming to be one with the Father?

This has been explained to you above. Jesus was defending himself there and also you can read this:

so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us

So as you can see, we can also become one with Jesus and God, No way Jesus implied that he is God there.

Did they ever say they were the only way towards Him and anyother way is a broad way to destruction?

Yes they did, if you don't follow the prophets of God then you are doomed. Jesus's langauge there is no different form any prophet.

So, this goes back to my original argument, which is, when Christ said "my God" he was referring to the Father.

I don't get this one really, can you explain?

Do I need to quote Jesus' interpretation of David's psalm in the Old Testament for the third time? Do we need to have another "Eternal God" debate?

This will lead to talk about Jesus's origins, as you know one gospel refer him to Nathan and another refer him to another. Nathan was never a king.
So Jesus not being the son of David is understandable.
And by the way, lots of people are called LORDS in the OT, that didn't make them God at all.

I'll continue later.

[Alpha]

Or maybe you should read the OT and see who else declared himself to be before Abraham.

No one in the OT declared themself to be before Abraham, but they did say God knew them before they were born. When Jeremiah says God knew him before he was formed in the womb and when Solomon in Proverbs says the Lord possessed him since the beginning, that is not the same as when Christ said "before Abraham was, I AM." Let me explain why. What Jeremiah and Solomon declared, all men can make that same claim. God knew about both your life and my life before we were even born, because He is God. Common sense would tell you that God knew of Abraham before Abraham was born also. But Christ made a specific claim which no other man can make. You and I can say God knew us before we were born and since the foundation of the earth, but can we say before Abraham was we were? If you interpret what Jesus said meaning: "Jesus is saying God knew of him before he was born like any other man" then what about Abraham? Didn't God know about Abraham before Abraham was born also? But then Christ said He was before Abraham, which shows Christ does not mean that the Father knew him before he was born, but rather Christ existed before Abraham existed. Jesus also said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega" and "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

P.S.--I did not bring up the "I AM" discussion.

So we see the inconsistence here, what do you think? More denial?

What inconsistance? Read the scripture for the truth. The scripture is not inconsistant, it's people's opinions that are inconsistant. Before you declare inconsistancies from Bible references, maybe you should look at your Muslim scholars who disagree with the meanings of Qu'ran interpretations. Why should I be in denial because of what references say? Some references go against fundamental Christian doctrine. How would you like it if I said the Qu'ran teaches to be violent and I use the actions of Islamic extremists as an example? And on top of that, I said you were in denial? But then you would say the Islamic extremists take the Qu'ran passages out of context and the Qu'ran does not teach to be violent.

This has been explained to you above. Jesus was defending himself there and also you can read this:

so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us

So as you can see, we can also become one with Jesus and God, No way Jesus implied that he is God there.

This is unfair what you did. You seperated this comment of mines which was suppose to be in connection with the rest of my comments. In other words, the full saying was to be: People who called God there father before Christ, were they claiming to be one with the Father? Also, people who called God their father before christ, did they ever claim to be the only one to declare Him? Did they ever say they were the only way towards Him and anyother way is a broad way to destruction? So, this goes back to my original argument, which is, when Christ said "my God" he was referring to the Father. I wanted you to give me an example of people who called God their father and claimed ALL of the following (not one): They were one with the Father, they were the only one to declare the Father, they were the only way to the Father, pray in their name when praying to the Father. Now, you can say Christians are one with the Father and Jesus, just as Jesus is one with the Father, but can Christians say we are the only way to the Father and any other way leads to destruction? Can we say pray in our name when praying to the Father? I think not.

Did they ever say they were the only way towards Him and anyother way is a broad way to destruction?

Yes they did, if you don't follow the prophets of God then you are doomed. Jesus's langauge there is no different form any prophet.

At the time of the prophets in the OT, no prophet claimed they were the only way God. In fact, when a prophet was doing the work of God in the OT, other prophets existed at the sametime as them. How then can they claim to be the only way to the God, when there were other prophets around? Christ said He is the only way to the Father, no other prophet makes that claim. The prophets of the OT gave sacrifices symbolizing the death of Christ. They looked forward to the cross. Without the cross, they would also be doomed. Therefore, Jesus' saying of being the only way also applies to them. Note: Christ already refutes your claim of comparing Him to other prophets. Just read Mark 12:6-7 and you will see in Jesus' parable, the son is the heir of all the servants (prophets of OT) who were sent. Also, since you are so concerned about what Christ said, He also claimed to be the last one the Father would send (Verse 6). Any other prophet who comes after Christ, must come in the name of Christ. But this get's into another discussion.

And by the way, lots of people are called LORDS in the OT, that didn't make them God at all.

Revelation 17:14>These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

What did Christ say? In Matthew 12:41-42, He claims to be greater than Jonah and Solomon (Also in Luke 11:31-32). Daniel prophesied about Jesus ruling in an everlasting kingdom. So do not compare others in the Bible who were called lords to the King of kings and Lord of lords--Jesus Christ.

[Alpha]

oneGOD, the Holy Spirit was convicting me on Proverbs 8. If you read that whole chapter, you will see that the writer isn't talking about himself, but wisdom. In other words, it is not Solomon who claims when God prepared the heavens, he was there. Solomon is talking about wisdom. It is wisdom who was with God since the beginning. I just want to make that correction.

[oneGOD]

Hi ALpha,
I'll show you something I found in some Muslim books, read it please:

I pray you, what means the message of these words: "Muhammad is Messenger of God. Have there been other men before me?" 'Then said God: "Be you welcome, O my servant Adam. . I tell you that you are the first man whom I have created. And he whom you have seen [mentioned] is your son, who shall come into the world many years hence, and shall be my Messenger, for whom I have created all things; who shall give light to the world when he shall come; whose soul was set in a celestial splendour ;sixty thousand years before I made any. thing."

Did Muhammad ever claim to be God? Or did we understand this as Muhammad being God? NO
Jesus is called according to the OT "My Servant" many many times.
The problem that you are faced with here is that Jesus NEVER EVER directly said he was God in the four gospels.
Most of them are from John anyway, which is the last one to be written (around 120 AD).
One thing you fail to realize also, is that when Jesus said he and the father are one, then whatever I quoted above from John proves without doubt that we can be one with God also. Does this make us God? Of course not.

One major differece between our resources and your resources. Our resoucres are known. We know where they came from, we know every single person who spoke them by the name, we know their history, theri background, everything about them.On the other hand, you can in NO WAY tell who wrote whatever you have, yhou have no proof whatsoever, only thing that makes you feel comfortable with it is just faith. We Muslims, have faith and science, which is according to my opinion, a better reference to where the HAdiths came from.

People who called God there father before Christ, were they claiming to be one with the Father? Also, people who called God their father before christ, did they ever claim to be the only one to declare Him? Did they ever say they were the only way towards Him and anyother way is a broad way to destruction? So, this goes back to my original argument, which is, when Christ said "my God" he was referring to the Father

And of course since you failed to find one single passage Jesus calling himself God you start following this logic above to comfort your faith.
Let me ask you this, any single prophet who have come to humanity, was he not the only way to know God? Yes, because any other way is not the right way. Did not the prophets declared God? Yes they did. were they the only ones? Maybe in their time they were the only ones to declare him, just like Jesus was the only one and last one to the jews.Of course any other way to God other than what the prophets teach us isn't the only way and will lead to destruction, and even if Jesus was the only way, does that say he is God? Of course not. When Jesus said MY GOD, he was just like any one of us who also says "MY GOD" no difference at all. He called him his God because he was his God and if he wasn't his God he wouldn't have called him his God, this is basic.

Jesus is a great prophet I don't deny that myself, you still haven't showed me where Jesus call himself God. Him being the only way (during his time) is acceptable, but that does not mean in anyway that he is calling himself God.

So now to kinda limit this braod discussion, I will need you to explain to me why Jesus called God HIS GOD, why Jesus said, My God and your God, OUR GOD?

[Scorpion]

OneGod: Can you show me a scripture in the Bible which clearly Jesus says that "I am not God, do not worship me"

Come on mate, show me a scripture in the Bible will you where Jesus says that he isn't God. Come on, lets make a challenge shall we.

Show me just 1 scripture that clearly shows where Jesus says he isn't God. And dont give pathetic scriptures showing his humanness, Jesus was both God and man.

I will start a thread about this tomorrow or so jam packed with good info. In the meanwhile ... Can you show me a scripture where Jesus ever refused worship or didn't claim to be God?

Hmmmm?

[Scorpion]

Jesus Is the Son of God and God himself. I will answer any questions you may have bedriven_bydemons. Keep quiet for now and let oneGod answer my questions ok?

Dont intefere right now.

oneGod: answer my questions as simply as you can.

[Alpha]

oneGOD, Christ from the Bible is clearly God. He never said "I am God worship me," but does that mean He is not God in the flesh? He obviously claimed to be God in the flesh through His figurative language and He also claims to be Saviour. If you look in the Old Testament, it says only God can be Saviour. And from the New testament, we see clearly that people WORSHIPPED Christ. He never had to say "worship me." Also, your argument of Christ not being God because He never said He was God or by calling the Father his God is refuted by Paul himself:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [Phillippians 2:5-8].

Christ Himself said to His desciples> These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. (Matthew 16:25).

Again, Christ did not have to speak plainly to show He was God. The Pharisees knew He was claiming to be God, that's why they wanted to kill Him in the first place. Only those who can understand Jesus' proverbs through the Holy Spirit can be His desciples. Muslims taking His sayings out of context through their misunderstandings of His parables show that they are not His desciples.

Matthew 13:35>That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Christ Himself said>Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. (Mark 4:11-12)..Also, check out Matthew 13:13, Luke 8:10).

Christ said>My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. (John 10:27).

This is the true revelation of God. Unlike Islam, this is no Johnny come lately revelation.

[oneGOD]

oneGOD, Christ from the Bible is clearly God. He never said "I am God worship me,"

SO now you admit it, he never said it.

He obviously claimed to be God in the flesh through His figurative language and He also claims to be Saviour.

None of that I have seen so far, and we have argued about them.
Being a saviour, All I can say, if you are faced with a prophet and you believe in him then he will be your saviour, as God is your saviour always.

we see clearly that people WORSHIPPED Christ

Actually NO, Mistranslated KJV. The correct meaning is bowed. Bowing does not indicate worshipping, it is how middle eastern people pay respect, and it is shown until this day.

[Phillippians 2:5-8].

Again, it is what Jesus said, not what others said about him.

The Pharisees knew He was claiming to be God, that's why they wanted to kill Him in the first place

I wonder why would the Pharisees think he claims he is God when he said:

Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."

I believe OUR includes Jesus.

John 8:28 Jesus said, "I do nothing of myself”
An I wonder, how can they think he is God when he says that.

John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice

So I still wonder actually.
The only reasonable reason why they wanted to get rid of him is the same reason why they wanted to get rid of all the prophets before, and they never secceeded.

So, if Jesus spoke in parables as you claim, then we check out the above verses and we clearly see that he is not claiming to be God, AFTER ALL, HE CALLED GOD HIS GOD.

I am truly beginning to believe that when the Ghost writer of John wrote that gospel he was kinda intoxicated.

He wrote:

John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

and all I can say is WOW, the high priest PROPHECISED. I thought only prophets prophecised.

Then we find the same priest in Matthew saying:
MAtthew 26:65
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Does that make any sense? The high priest prophecised that Jesus should die, so we conclude that he knew about the whole story, then we find him saying that Jesus said blasphemy.

Come on now, only prophets prophecise.

And again, we see no proof what so ever in the OT saying that God will descend here to earth and save us.

We actually find in what you claim to be a prophecy about Jesus the following:

When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted

This is like seriously funny, God punishing his Son which is also supposedly the same God.
Come on now...LOL.

Peace

[Alpha]

None of that I have seen so far, and we have argued about them.
Being a saviour, All I can say, if you are faced with a prophet and you believe in him then he will be your saviour, as God is your saviour always.

Whether it be referring to Himself as the Son of God, or referring to the Psalms of David in which David calls Him Lord (and don't say many were called lords because I already refuted that--and you swayed the conversation in another way), Christ obviously declares to be divine. Finally, after Christ resurrected He clealy says Himself "ALL power is given unto me in heaven and on earth." If you want to say the Father gave him that power and that the Father is greater than Jesus, then fine. But you cannot get to the Father unless you accept the Son and His sacrifice.

Actually NO, Mistranslated KJV. The correct meaning is bowed. Bowing does not indicate worshipping, it is how middle eastern people pay respect, and it is shown until this day.

Let's take a look at a situation in which Christ was worshipped. But first, let's take your translation of worship into account. Now, in John 9:35-38 a man was worshipping Jesus. You say the man was bowing to Jesus right? But why was he "bowing" to Jesus? Jesus declared to be the Son of God, that's why he was "bowing" to Jesus. But wait a minute...you said that's how people paid respect to one another in that culture, by bowing. If someone was the Son of God and you bowed to Him like you bowed to any other person to show respect, that's disrespectful. The man obviously was not only bowing to Jesus, but worshipping Him because He claimed to be the Son of God. Christ Himself (since you are so concerned with His words) said if you love your mother or father more than Him, then you are not worthy of Him. Therefore, if you were to bow to Christ like you bow to any other person, you are not worthy of Him. Christ was worshipped in the true sense of the word.

Phillippians 2:5-8

Again, it is what Jesus said, not what others said about him.

Since you don't care what others say about Jesus, I won't care what you say about Jesus. Since you claim He is not God in the flesh, I do not care, because it is your words. Like Scorpion said, did Jesus say He wasn't God? Did Jesus say do not worship me? According to your logic, if He did not say those exact words then He has to be God. And if you say otherwise, who cares because it is your words.

I wonder why would the Pharisees think he claims he is God when he said:

Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."

I believe OUR includes Jesus.

John 8:28 Jesus said, "I do nothing of myself”
An I wonder, how can they think he is God when he says that.

John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice

Did you read on in those passages you posted? In both those passages Christ was referring to the Father [John 5:32 is suppose to be John 1:18]. You cannot recieve the Father unless you recieve the sacrifice of the Son. The Son is the only way to the Father. These are things Jesus Himself said. And Christ said no one has seen God at anytime, but the Son has declared him. Christ was referring to the Father because when you read the same verse in John 1:18, Jesus makes it clear that he is referring to the Father, and when you read John 6:46 He makes it clear that no one has seen the Father except for him.

So I still wonder actually.
The only reasonable reason why they wanted to get rid of him is the same reason why they wanted to get rid of all the prophets before, and they never secceeded.

None of the other prophets whom got killed in the OT claimed to be the only begotten Son of God. The Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because of His claims of divinity.

So, if Jesus spoke in parables as you claim, then we check out the above verses and we clearly see that he is not claiming to be God, AFTER ALL, HE CALLED GOD HIS GOD.

In those above verses and all the other verses in the gospels in which you find Jesus saying God, Jesus is referring to the Father. I'm sure you've heard of the Trinity.

John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

and all I can say is WOW, the high priest PROPHECISED. I thought only prophets prophecised.

There are a few ways someone can prophesy. The first is if God tells a prophet and the prophet declares the prophecy to others. The second, is if someone prophecies not knowing that they are prophecying. For an example, check out Pharaoh in Exodus 10:28-29, and check out Matthew 27:25. Let me give you another example, if I say Christ will return I am prophesying. I did not start the prophecy but it is still a prophecy. Does that make me a prophet? I think not.

And again, we see no proof what so ever in the OT saying that God will descend here to earth and save us.

Genesis 3:14-15>And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Romans 16:20>The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

1 John 3:8>The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

The devil bruising the heal of Christ refers to Christ's sufferings in the flesh. The serpant can only bruise at the heal because it can't move around like other creatures can. Christ bruising the head of the serpant refers to His death on the cross and conquering death. It was the devil who was a muderer from the beginning as Christ said (John 8:44).

[oneGOD]

Hi Alpha, hope you doing fine man,

If you want to say the Father gave him that power and that the Father is greater than Jesus, then fine. But you cannot get to the Father unless you accept the Son and His sacrifice.

That is kinda weird actually, Jesus and God are the same. This sounds like as if If I want to get to God I have to go through God first. you don't make sense here. If the father is greater than Jesus as you said then the son could not be God in no way. Seeing that you are making a distinction between them both could only mean these two are not the same, or have the same nature, if they had the same nature, then none should be greater than the other.

and don't say many were called lords because I already refuted that--and you swayed the conversation in another way

Could you shouw me please where I did that?

Christ Himself (since you are so concerned with His words) said if you love your mother or father more than Him, then you are not worthy of Him. Therefore, if you were to bow to Christ like you bow to any other person, you are not worthy of Him. Christ was worshipped in the true sense of the word.

Prophet Muhammad said the same thing about himself and God. We have to love all prophets and God more than our parents. There is nothing unique in what you said.
The word Son of God here is mixed for the simple reason. Greeces did not look at it the same way the Jews did. Those terms were used loosley in the OT. When Jesus called himself the son of God as a Jewish would only mean he is a prophet. and Being a son is not being God himself.
You may claim that it was said he is the ONLY son, but you have to remember that God called many his sons, calling Jesus his ONLY son after 2000 years of revealation of calling other prophets and the Jew "MY SONS" then backing up and saying that :"Oh no...Actually I have only one son and he is Jesus" is kinda contradictory.

Since you don't care what others say about Jesus, I won't care what you say about Jesus. Since you claim He is not God in the flesh, I do not care, because it is your words. Like Scorpion said, did Jesus say He wasn't God? Did Jesus say do not worship me? According to your logic, if He did not say those exact words then He has to be God. And if you say otherwise, who cares because it is your words

Actually, my thoughts are derived directly of what Jesus said. It is obvious that Greeces who were truly unaware of the Jewish nature and culture interpreted their own way.
When Jesus said : I do nothing of myself, this can only mean he is not God
WHen Jesus said : Father is greater than I , this could only mean he is saying he isn't God.
Because if he was actually God, then no such statements would come out of his mouth.

The Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus because of His claims of divinity.

One can read the whole gospels and see that they only wanted to kill him because Jesus mocked them all.

John 11
47
So the chief priests and the Pharisees convened the Sanhedrin and said, "What are we going to do? This man is performing many signs.
48
If we leave him alone, all will believe in him, and the Romans will come 10 and take away both our land and our nation."
49
But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, 11 said to them, "You know nothing,
50
nor do you consider that it is better for you that one man should die instead of the people, so that the whole nation may not perish."

And many more examples could be shown also.

In those above verses and all the other verses in the gospels in which you find Jesus saying God, Jesus is referring to the Father. I'm sure you've heard of the Trinity.

Hi...Jesus never referred to the trinity, the only passage is forged as affirmed by the oldest manuscripts.

One more example of forged stuff?
The gospel opens with the phrase, "the beginning of the gospel of Joshua Messiah the son of God. The phrase ‘the son of God' does not appear in the earliest versions of the manuscript.

Genesis 3:14-15>And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I love mistranslated verses, Here is the correct one:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel

And I asked for OT refernces calling Jesus God or that God will come here to earth. None you will find I'm sure.

[Scorpion]

Correct version, from KJV Genesis 3:15 -

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel

Also, i will give you the references about what you requested about the OT talking about God coming to earth etc etc.

[Alpha]

Hi Alpha, hope you doing fine man

I'm having a great time!

That is kinda weird actually, Jesus and God are the same. This sounds like as if If I want to get to God I have to go through God first. you don't make sense here. If the father is greater than Jesus as you said then the son could not be God in no way. Seeing that you are making a distinction between them both could only mean these two are not the same, or have the same nature, if they had the same nature, then none should be greater than the other.

This is not rocket science here. Christ said the Father is greater than Him, but we all know that Christ humbled Himself unto death even though He thought it not robbery to be equal with God. To simply respond to you on the nature of God--It is what it is. Two plus Two is four, why? An owl is called an owl, why? Because Adam named it like that. Why? This is how you Muslims are acting. You think Christ cannot be God because it does not make any sense to you. If you do not deeply know the answer to earthly things, what makes you think you can deeply understand the nature of God? What argument do you have against the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being God? You say it does not make sense, but what does make sense? You yourself believe in God and cannot see Him, therefore an Atheist will look to you an say you don't make sense. Then you Muslims answer saying you have to have faith. Well if that's your answer towards heathens, what argument do you have against Christianity? Christ is God in the flesh eventhough he acts like a servant, died on the cross, and was human. Why? because that's just the way it is.

and don't say many were called lords because I already refuted that--and you swayed the conversation in another way

Could you shouw me please where I did that?

Seems like you are losing your short term memory. This is not good, especially in a debate.

You said: And by the way, lots of people are called LORDS in the OT, that didn't make them God at all.

After I responded to that, you simply ignored it and not only did you ask the same questions which I responded to (you didn't even argue against all of the responses I made), but you proceeded to mention something which did not even involve Jesus being God, which was the high priest being a prophet. What does that have to do with Jesus being God or not? You're trying to get two for one by saying Jesus is not God and the Bible is corrupted by making the high priest look like a prophet. You're just an injured soldier on his knees trying to use whatever means he can to win the battle. You've ran out of ammunition.

Prophet Muhammad said the same thing about himself and God. We have to love all prophets and God more than our parents. There is nothing unique in what you said.
The word Son of God here is mixed for the simple reason. Greeces did not look at it the same way the Jews did. Those terms were used loosley in the OT. When Jesus called himself the son of God as a Jewish would only mean he is a prophet. and Being a son is not being God himself.
You may claim that it was said he is the ONLY son, but you have to remember that God called many his sons, calling Jesus his ONLY son after 2000 years of revealation of calling other prophets and the Jew "MY SONS" then backing up and saying that :"Oh no...Actually I have only one son and he is Jesus" is kinda contradictory.

You misunderstand. Read the context of all the arguments that we've made so far. Christ claimed to be the only way to the Father, then you say the prophets made the same claim towards God. Christ said we should love Him more than our own parents, then you say we should love the prophets and God more than our parents (The prophets never said to love them more than your parents, but Christ boldly makes that claim). Christ claims to be the only begotten son of God, you say many were called sons of God. Christ claims He is greater than the prophets and says all power is given to Him in heaven and earth, you say....??????

Actually, my thoughts are derived directly of what Jesus said. It is obvious that Greeces who were truly unaware of the Jewish nature and culture interpreted their own way.
When Jesus said : I do nothing of myself, this can only mean he is not God
WHen Jesus said : Father is greater than I , this could only mean he is saying he isn't God.
Because if he was actually God, then no such statements would come out of his mouth.

Those two verses in which you posted what Jesus said are backed up by what Paul said in Phillippians 2:5-8. Please do not refer to the passages in which Christ makes Himself a servant instead of divine. Not only does Paul say Christ humbled Himself though he was equal with God, but Christ Himself says all power is given unto Him. Christ does not say all power is given to the prophets(whom He claimed He was greater than) or all power is given to Muhammed, who is suppose to be a greater prophet than Christ Himself

One can read the whole gospels and see that they only wanted to kill him because Jesus mocked them all.

John 11
47
So the chief priests and the Pharisees convened the Sanhedrin and said, "What are we going to do? This man is performing many signs.
48
If we leave him alone, all will believe in him, and the Romans will come 10 and take away both our land and our nation."
49
But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, 11 said to them, "You know nothing,
50
nor do you consider that it is better for you that one man should die instead of the people, so that the whole nation may not perish."

And many more examples could be shown also.

Why did the Pharisses want to kill Jesus?

John 5:18>Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10:33>The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Also, when Christ was trialed, did the Pharisees remind Christ of how much He mocked them, or did they complain that Christ had blasphemed?

Hi...Jesus never referred to the trinity, the only passage is forged as affirmed by the oldest manuscripts.

One more example of forged stuff?
The gospel opens with the phrase, "the beginning of the gospel of Joshua Messiah the son of God. The phrase ‘the son of God' does not appear in the earliest versions of the manuscript.

In the earliest manuscripts, Christ is referred to as the Son of God. Probably not in that specific passage but through the gospels it does mention Christ is the Son of God. Let's say I read an article about you and the beginning of the article says "This is the story of oneGOD the Muslim," and in that same article, it goes on to say that you were married and had kids. Then I read another article which starts off saying, "This is the story of oneGOD, the husband and father," is that forgery? Forgery deals with a lie. Does not the initial article say you are a husband and father anyway? If you want to talk about textual variants, I can also point to the Qu'ran. As for the Trinity, that just means, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God. Something which the gospels teach. Christ Himself claims to be divine by saying ALL power is given to Him in heaven and on earth.

[Omega]

To onegod:

Debating is really not my forte, but spreading the message of Truth definitely is. And maybe this response is off topic for moderators so I'll only say it once.

There are those who continually refuse to accept the deity of Christ, even so the demons believe also, correct? but are they not condemned? In order to understand the fullness of God and develop a personal relationship as a Son with His Father and Father with Son, you must become a son of God. You must first Honor the Son and the Father in return will then Honour you. As far as I know, maybe not with you{I really believe that you will one day see the Truth} but there are those who with their continuous rejection and arrogance and pride that will ultimately lead them to destruction and perdition{Wise in their own sight}.The debate concerning the deity of Christ has been going on long before the Devil was defeated at the Cross. One who is born of the Spirit{Holy Spirit, not an excuse for muslims not understanding but the Truth} is as Jesus said like the wind, Just today the wind was blowing with great strength but I could not tell where it was coming from neither could I see it. And when one is born of the Spirit you cannot see the Spirit but you can feel its presence{Like the wind}, and it becomes stronger as you grow in Faith and Spirit. And as far as I know you are probably an elect of God, but someone has came and is attempting to rob the Truth from you.When Jesus said the Truth shall set you free{There is no Greater Truth then the realization of it, but then THE ACCUSER IS ALWAYS BESIDE YOU!!! who accuses me day and night and puts forth blame upon me.

It is written:If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:36

This may all be boring to you and it may not make any sense and I might be ridiculed for this{Because the message of the Cross is folly to those who are traveling on the Broad road to damnation, but anyways, Take care and see you then.

God Bless!

[oneGOD]

what makes you think you can deeply understand the nature of God?

I don't claim I do, you divide him and claim you do.

Then you Muslims answer saying you have to have faith. Well if that's your answer towards heathens, what argument do you have against Christianity? Christ is God in the flesh eventhough he acts like a servant, died on the cross, and was human. Why? because that's just the way it is.

That is how you harmonize your beliefs. Jesus acted exactly like prophets. Other come after him and call him God. Now in order for them to make it work, they say he humbeled himself.

Seems like you are losing your short term memory. This is not good, especially in a debate.

It's seriously a long debate man, and I'm only a human, I forget and miss things sometimes. You do the same sometimes. It's still cool though.

You misunderstand. Read the context of all the arguments that we've made so far. Christ claimed to be the only way to the Father, then you say the prophets made the same claim towards God. Christ said we should love Him more than our own parents, then you say we should love the prophets and God more than our parents (The prophets never said to love them more than your parents, but Christ boldly makes that claim).

ALl prophets are the way to God. You can not deny that. Whether they said it or not, you are lost without prophets. If Jesus made that claim, Muhammad and Moses did too, did that make them God? NO.

Christ claims to be the only begotten son of God

And where did Jesus say that?
God call many people his sons, now Jesus come and say I', the only son, simply contradict the first saying.
Israel is my first born son.
Then Jesus says, I'm the only son.
Which one is right?

all power is given to Him in heaven and earth

This simply contradicts the saying in one of the letters saying that all judgement is done by God. No mention of Jesus here.

Those two verses in which you posted what Jesus said are backed up by what Paul said in Phillippians 2:5-8. Please do not refer to the passages in which Christ makes Himself a servant instead of divine. Not only does Paul say Christ humbled Himself though he was equal with God, but Christ Himself says all power is given unto Him. Christ does not say all power is given to the prophets(whom He claimed He was greater than) or all power is given to Muhammed, who is suppose to be a greater prophet than Christ Himself

See, this is what you don't get. Jesus said that he does nothing of himself, he can not do anything without the father. This indeed does not make him God in anyway. If Jesus is God, then it is like you are saying, that God on earth could not do anything without the help of God?
You are dealing with contradictory statements here, and the only way you can harmonize it is by separating God into two, one who is helpless on earth and one who is all powerfull in heavens. You are not making them one but two. Then we are now faced with the dogma that power is given to christ. We are also faced with other dogmas, Jesus saying that He can not judge, another contradictory statement. One last thing, Power is given to Christ, this means that Christ did not have this power and it WAS GIVEN TO HIM. As you claim Jesus us God himself, now I can only wonder, how is it given to God when God in the first place has all the power?

John 5:18>Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

As I said before, for someone who is not Jewish like the ghost writer of John, he certainly does not know that Jews always called God their father.

John 10:33>The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

And this was backed up by:

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'?

This sentence can only show that as he claimed to be god, they are also claimed to be god in the scripture.
So Jesus is just defending himself against their accusation. Just like they are called gods he is also called god or son of god. Remember, Israel is god's first born.

As for the Trinity, that just means, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is God. Something which the gospels teach. Christ Himself claims to be divine by saying ALL power is given to Him in heaven and on earth.

In the earliest manuscripts, Christ is referred to as the Son of God. Probably not in that specific passage but through the gospels it does mention Christ is the Son of God.

Well, if it was allowed to ADD to the word of GOD, what else that we don't know might have been added?

You call it textual variances when they are not. They are added to what is supposed to be the original text. When Jesus never said pray in the name of the father, the son, or the holy spirit, and someone add it and claim it as Jesus's word, did they not put words into Jesus's mouth? Yes they did.

Reading the statements of Jesus is never the only reason why church believe in his divinity, it is what others said and thought him to be that established the church's dogma whcih they struggled defining it for four centuries.

Statements such as :
Timothy chapter 4:10
"For God is the savior of everyone, but especially of those who believe"
Is considered heresy, but it is still added to your scripture, because it states that we will be saved for GOD is savior.

I have shown you that Jesus calling God father is something that was never new to the Jews.
I have shown you that Jesus on so many occasions said that can not do anything without his father
I have shown you that Jesus said that he can not judge, yet on other passage it says he will, a clear contradiction.
You love what other said about Jesus and I have shown you that on so many occasions, so many statements have been added to the gospels, which leave us to the question, what else could be added?

Here is what God said about such people you call inspired:

Thus says YAHWEH of hosts, the God of Israel, "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat flesh. For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward." (Jeremiah 7:21)

My people do not know The ordinance of YAHWEH. How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of YAHWEH is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of YAHWEH, And what kind of wisdom do they have?" (Jeremiah 8:7)

But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck; He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood; He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol. These people have chosen their own ways and their souls revel in their abominations." (Isaiah 66:3)

And yet, statements from Jesus verifying he is not God do exist in the gospels, he called God "MY GOD" "OUR GOD", and then come someone like St. Paul and lie (that is if he actually wrote them)
You find three different stories to him receiving revealation from God, three different stories and none is similar.

and Notice, not onething you quoted ever confirmed Jesus's divinity. If I am faced with a prophet, of course he will be the only way to salvation, whether mentioned or not. If I am faced with this prophet, of course he will be my light and lead me to truth. Jesus saying that is not a confirmation of divinity at all.
The only way to make it work through your mind is to believe that Jesus (GOD) was helpless on earth, and then we hear him say :I do the works of My Father, notice, not Jesus's works but the father, a clear distinction between them both, and yet you come and say they are one. One who is all powerfull and the other is a helpless god.
It would make so much sense if you look at Jesus as a prophet, and think through what the prophets and God, you will see that he is nothing but a human, no divine thing about him at all.Yes Jesus is a great prophet, greater than others.

And now you are faced with another delimma,
As can see, no burnt offerings were supposed to be imposed, I'll make another thread here about this subject soon.

[Omega]

I don't know what to tell you{ADAM}! You made your choice and I will no longer after this force it upon you seeing that it is going nowhere, and we will never come to a mutual agreement of the deity of Christ. Even proof by scholars would not sufficient enough to change your mind, and I can see that you stand firm upon your belief.

Jesus as the Son set an example of how all of us as sons of God should live.

It is written:And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. Matthew 26:39

As children of God we should fulfill Gods will in our lives, even through turmoil we should continue and not grow faint because the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, that is what example Jesus is displaying to us{As a SON TO A FATHER}.

It is written:Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17

Once again if you have eyes to see and ears to hear and a heart of spiritual understanding, We as sons of God{Do we not call Him God? and do we not call Him Father?}

There is a lesson of humility to be learned from God the Son.

Besides Jesus dying for the sins of mankind, do you not see a lesson to be learned here? You call Him a great teacher, but are you a STUDENT AND SON?

Furthermore it is written: These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33

It is also written:Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5

I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be [b]my son[/b]. Revelation 21:7

Jesus said I have overcome the World and all POWER{AUTHORITY}
And Jesus said," Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,"

Overcome the World by the example set by Jesus{SON} and you will become A son of God and will inherit all things{The Kingdom of GOD}

It is written:All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Matthew 11:27

Become a son of God an the revelation of God will come to you.

It is written:That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Matthew 13:35

Does any of this make sense?

The sons of God are sealed by the seal of God and so are also the Sons of the prince of the air are also sealed.

Jesus said," He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

And at the Name shall every knee bow{including yours}[Don't take it as an offense}

The time is nigh and the time is now, do you really want to take part with the world when Jesus{GOD}comes from beyond the universe and descend to earth with His army?

And finally it is written:Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. Daniel 12:10

God Bless!

[Alpha]

what makes you think you can deeply understand the nature of God?

I don't claim I do, you divide him and claim you do. That is how you harmonize your beliefs. Jesus acted exactly like prophets. Other come after him and call him God. Now in order for them to make it work, they say he humbeled himself.

I never claimed I understand the nature of God. I'm only defending God the way He revealed Himself. You're the one saying God did not reveal Himself as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But He clearly did.

It's seriously a long debate man, and I'm only a human, I forget and miss things sometimes. You do the same sometimes. It's still cool though.

Fair enough.

ALl prophets are the way to God. You can not deny that. Whether they said it or not, you are lost without prophets. If Jesus made that claim, Muhammad and Moses did too, did that make them God? NO.

Like I said, no prophet ever said to forsake your family (if they have to) in order to follow them. No prophet was given ALL power in heaven and on earth. These are things which Christ claimed.

Christ claims to be the only begotten son of God

And where did Jesus say that?
God call many people his sons, now Jesus come and say I', the only son, simply contradict the first saying.
Israel is my first born son.
Then Jesus says, I'm the only son.
Which one is right?

You see, but you percieve not. Read what I said after the words you quoted from me above. What was my argument? You do not understand. He who has ears let him hear. Did I already not mention that you were going to say others were called sons of God? Read my argument and understand. You're missing the point. You're too emotional when reading my arguments. You're quick to speak, but not slow to listen.

all power is given to Him in heaven and earth

This simply contradicts the saying in one of the letters saying that all judgement is done by God. No mention of Jesus here.

LOL. All judgement is done by God? Christ is given all the power? It is only a contradiction if Christ is not God. And like Christians say, 'Christ is God in the flesh.' The letters also imply that Christ is God in the flesh. It is in the letters where the Father calls the Son "God."

See, this is what you don't get. Jesus said that he does nothing of himself, he can not do anything without the father. This indeed does not make him God in anyway. If Jesus is God, then it is like you are saying, that God on earth could not do anything without the help of God?
You are dealing with contradictory statements here, and the only way you can harmonize it is by separating God into two, one who is helpless on earth and one who is all powerfull in heavens. You are not making them one but two. Then we are now faced with the dogma that power is given to christ. We are also faced with other dogmas, Jesus saying that He can not judge, another contradictory statement. One last thing, Power is given to Christ, this means that Christ did not have this power and it WAS GIVEN TO HIM. As you claim Jesus us God himself, now I can only wonder, how is it given to God when God in the first place has all the power?

In both the Bible and the Qu'ran, there are passages in which God speaks to Himself. If God can speak to Himself (man can speak to themselves also), how then can God the Son not speak to God the Father. Now, you claim not to fully understand the nature of God, but here you go again arguing against it. As the scripture says, Christ is God in the flesh but humbled Himself and became a servant. Also, there are examples of Trinities which have been given over and over. Matter is solid, liquid and gas. Matter is one, but has three different representations. Why then do you keep saying God is seperated into two, when it is explained a million times that Christians believe in one God manifested in three persons? Also, if you read the scriptures, Christ says He did not come to condemn the world or judge it. How is this a contradiction to Christ being God? If you read carefully, Christ is talking about His first coming. He did not first come to earth to judge. He first came to die for the sins of man. Judgement will be in His second coming. So there is no contradiction. As for power being given to Christ, this is the relationship between God the Father and God the Son. You cannot recieve the Father unless you recieve the Son, that is why Christ is considered to be God in the flesh, because if you see Him, you see the Father. Christ is not called God in the flesh because He has power away from the Father. Christ is called God in the flesh because when you see Him, you see the Father and in order to get to the Father, you must go through Him.

John 5:18>Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

As I said before, for someone who is not Jewish like the ghost writer of John, he certainly does not know that Jews always called God their father.

The only difference is, when Christ referred to God as His Father, He declared the Father and said He was the only way to the Father and the only one who has SEEN the Father. I don't see other Jews who refer to God as their father make the same claims as Christ does.

sus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'?

This sentence can only show that as he claimed to be god, they are also claimed to be god in the scripture.
So Jesus is just defending himself against their accusation. Just like they are called gods he is also called god or son of god. Remember, Israel is god's first born.

Yes, but look at the difference. Though God's people were refered to as "gods" they did not claim to have all power in heaven and earth. And instead of being sacrificed for man's sins, they GAVE sacrifices. Christ on the other hand has all power and was GIVEN as a sacrifice. So when God's people is referred to as "gods" it is not the same as when Christ is refered to as the Son of God. Christ is divine, God's people are not.

Well, if it was allowed to ADD to the word of GOD, what else that we don't know might have been added?

You call it textual variances when they are not. They are added to what is supposed to be the original text. When Jesus never said pray in the name of the father, the son, or the holy spirit, and someone add it and claim it as Jesus's word, did they not put words into Jesus's mouth? Yes they did.

Reading the statements of Jesus is never the only reason why church believe in his divinity, it is what others said and thought him to be that established the church's dogma whcih they struggled defining it for four centuries.

There is no proof of them being added. The Alexandrian text-type is about 10% of all the mauscripts and the Byzantine text-type is about 90% of all the manuscripts. The Byzantine text supports the verse in which it says pray in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Why do you say this verse is added when 90% of the manuscripts support it?! And even if you take out that verse, what changes? Nothing! Because the Alexandrian text-types still support the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as being God. 98% of ALL the manuscripts agree. We all know there are thousands more mauscripts for the Holy Bible than the Qu'ran. Now, the Qu'ran contains textual variants also, but even with those variants, it does not have more mauscript evidence as the Holy Bible.

James White says, "The reality is that the amount of variation between the two most extremely different manuscripts of the New Testament would not fundamentally altar the message of the Scriptures! I make this statement (1) fully aware of the wide range of textual variants in the New Testament, and (2) painfully aware of the strong attacks upon those who have made similar statements in the past."

Statements such as :
Timothy chapter 4:10
"For God is the savior of everyone, but especially of those who believe"
Is considered heresy, but it is still added to your scripture, because it states that we will be saved for GOD is savior.

If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is God and God is Saviour, then heresy does not exist. Simple response.

Thus says YAHWEH of hosts, the God of Israel, "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat flesh. For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward." (Jeremiah 7:21)

Again you are misinterpreting the scripture. As you can see, in Leviticus 9:7 and in other parts of the law (available upon request) God commands that they should give burnt offerings and sacrifices. This was not God's intention however. God's intention was for them to obey His voice. But since they sinned against God, offerings and sacrifices were given for atonement of sin. When they started to give offerings and sacrifices they did it and neglected the more important things. They were hypocritical and praised God from the outside, but their hearts were far from Him. This is why eventhough Saul gave an offering and sacrifice, Samuel rebuked Him (1 Samuel 15:22), because Saul did not obey the voice of the Lord. God never said not to give sacrifices and offerings, but to consider priorities.

My people do not know The ordinance of YAHWEH. How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of YAHWEH is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of YAHWEH, And what kind of wisdom do they have?" (Jeremiah 8:7)

The Bible is obviously not referring to itself. Yes, during that time they changed the meanings of God's laws (if you even read the New Testament, Christ rebukes the Pharisees many times for misrepresenting God's law), but that does not mean the Bible itself was corrupt by the hands of the scribes. Archaeological and prophetic evidences alone refutes that. Aslo, again you misinterpret the meaning. If you read for example, the KJV, it says in that verse that the pen of the scribes is in vain. In other words, eventhough some of the scribes changed the law, it had no effect. Their attempt was in vain. So again, please do not apply this verse to the Bible. Ironically, your attempt(s) to argue against us are in vain.

But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck; He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood; He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol. These people have chosen their own ways and their souls revel in their abominations." (Isaiah 66:3)

Again, the same response can be given for this passage as the one I gave earlier. Offerings and sacrifices were given to God without a person's heart being with God. There was nothing wrong with them giving sacrifices, but they were giving it while they were not really following God. Their sacrifices were not perfect or from the heart. This is yet another reason why Christ had to die as a sacrifice, because His sacrifice was perfect. And God only accepts perfection.

And yet, statements from Jesus verifying he is not God do exist in the gospels, he called God "MY GOD" "OUR GOD", and then come someone like St. Paul and lie (that is if he actually wrote them)
You find three different stories to him receiving revealation from God, three different stories and none is similar.

All are similar. Again, you have to look at the overall teachings of the New Testament. Also, Christ humbled Himself and became a servant eventhough he thought it not roberry to be equal with God, like the scriptures say. Now you say the scriptures are corrupted, but you have no evidence of that. The only thing you claim as "evidence" is your misunderstanding/misinterpretation of the scriptures.

and Notice, not onething you quoted ever confirmed Jesus's divinity

Matthew 28:18>And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Matthew 22:42-45>Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? (Also see Mark 12, Luke 20)

John 14:9>Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

etc, etc, etc.

It would make so much sense if you look at Jesus as a prophet, and think through what the prophets and God, you will see that he is nothing but a human, no divine thing about him at all.Yes Jesus is a great prophet, greater than others.

Too bad this is your saying and not God's.

[oneGOD]

I think this debate have been consumed so much. I will add my final remarks then I will leave the final word to you. Readers will always decide.

oneGOD wrote:
ALl prophets are the way to God. You can not deny that. Whether they said it or not, you are lost without prophets. If Jesus made that claim, Muhammad and Moses did too, did that make them God? NO.


Like I said, no prophet ever said to forsake your family (if they have to) in order to follow them. No prophet was given ALL power in heaven and on earth. These are things which Christ claimed.

You still won't admot that all prophets are the way to God, whether they said it or not, they are the way as shown in the quote above.
Ok notice this word : GIVEN, God is not given power, God possess the power. So even if I agree with you and say it is given to him, then it is basically given, not something that he possessed. And of course I will always remind you of the fact that Jesus said HE CAN NOT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT THE HELP OF THE FATHER, which simply concludes that we have two contradictory statements. One says he has the power and the other says the opposite.

oneGOD wrote:
Quote:
Christ claims to be the only begotten son of God


And where did Jesus say that?
God call many people his sons, now Jesus come and say I', the only son, simply contradict the first saying.
Israel is my first born son.
Then Jesus says, I'm the only son.
Which one is right?


You see, but you percieve not. Read what I said after the words you quoted from me above. What was my argument? You do not understand. He who has ears let him hear. Did I already not mention that you were going to say others were called sons of God? Read my argument and understand. You're missing the point. You're too emotional when reading my arguments. You're quick to speak, but not slow to listen.

I'm not really emotional. My argument above is clear, people called him the only son of God and I showed you that they were mistaken by doing so. If Jesus called himself the son of God, then I am fine with that, because we are faced with what that means in the OT as I mentioned above. I don't see Jesus making a contradiction but I see what those people wrote about him have. They called him the only one when he was actually not the only one.

oneGOD wrote:
See, this is what you don't get. Jesus said that he does nothing of himself, he can not do anything without the father. This indeed does not make him God in anyway. If Jesus is God, then it is like you are saying, that God on earth could not do anything without the help of God?
You are dealing with contradictory statements here, and the only way you can harmonize it is by separating God into two, one who is helpless on earth and one who is all powerfull in heavens. You are not making them one but two. Then we are now faced with the dogma that power is given to christ. We are also faced with other dogmas, Jesus saying that He can not judge, another contradictory statement. One last thing, Power is given to Christ, this means that Christ did not have this power and it WAS GIVEN TO HIM. As you claim Jesus us God himself, now I can only wonder, how is it given to God when God in the first place has all the power?


In both the Bible and the Qu'ran, there are passages in which God speaks to Himself. If God can speak to Himself (man can speak to themselves also), how then can God the Son not speak to God the Father. Now, you claim not to fully understand the nature of God, but here you go again arguing against it. As the scripture says, Christ is God in the flesh but humbled Himself and became a servant. Also, there are examples of Trinities which have been given over and over. Matter is solid, liquid and gas. Matter is one, but has three different representations. Why then do you keep saying God is seperated into two, when it is explained a million times that Christians believe in one God manifested in three persons? Also, if you read the scriptures, Christ says He did not come to condemn the world or judge it. How is this a contradiction to Christ being God? If you read carefully, Christ is talking about His first coming. He did not first come to earth to judge. He first came to die for the sins of man. Judgement will be in His second coming. So there is no contradiction. As for power being given to Christ, this is the relationship between God the Father and God the Son. You cannot recieve the Father unless you recieve the Son, that is why Christ is considered to be God in the flesh, because if you see Him, you see the Father. Christ is not called God in the flesh because He has power away from the Father. Christ is called God in the flesh because when you see Him, you see the Father and in order to get to the Father, you must go through Him.

I say that he is separated into two because what you write implies it. I have simply stated what Jesus himself said and that is he CAN NOT do anything without the father. If Jesus (*God in the flesh) can not do anything, then how come he is God?

Christ is not called God in the flesh because He has power away from the Father

Think about what you wrote here again.

Christ is called God in the flesh because when you see Him, you see the Father and in order to get to the Father, you must go through Him

And AGain, I repeat that If Jesus was a prophet, then he would be the only way to the father just like any other prophet. Whether they said it or not, it yields the saem result. Being the only way to the father does not mean he is God at all. If you can just accept that prophets were the way to God as Jesus was, then you would see how your logic is flawed.

oneGOD wrote:
Quote:
John 5:18>Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


As I said before, for someone who is not Jewish like the ghost writer of John, he certainly does not know that Jews always called God their father.


The only difference is, when Christ referred to God as His Father, He declared the Father and said He was the only way to the Father and the only one who has SEEN the Father. I don't see other Jews who refer to God as their father make the same claims as Christ does.

Notice that I was showing the ignorance of the ghost writer of John. He said that they wanted to kill him because he called God his father, yet all jews called God their father. that is my point here.
Still we see Jesus saying taht No one have ever seen the father, and still He who is God (Jesus) does not know when the judgement day is. The claim is that he lost his power as human. I call this SCIENCE FICTION.

Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Jesus saying "I am":

From Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's work; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

It is claimed that Jesus used the words, "I am", and since these same words were used by God to describe Himself to the people in the Old Testament, Jesus was claiming to be God. John 8:58, is presented to back this claim. In the verse, Jesus says: " Before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)" Now, if Jesus existed before Abraham did, that might be a remarkable thing, but does that prove that he was God?

How many people existed before Abraham? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb; "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)" Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON." However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not !.

Matthew 28:18>And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Notice the word GIVEN, it was given to him from a higher power obviously.

Matthew 22:42-45>Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? (Also see Mark 12, Luke 20)

This will lead to geneologies stuff. I don't think Jesus is the son of david anyway.Calling him lord, has already been discussed also.

Jesus called God HIS GOD, and yes he is HIS GOD AND OUR GOD.

[Scorpion]

If Jesus called himself the son of God, then I am fine with that

Well ... to me atleast thats a good sign that shows your willing to accept something different if somebody shows it to you.

I will start up a thread about How Jesus called himself God, not just the Son of God. I hope you'll like it my friend.

Also oneGod: I dont agree that all the prophets have claimed to by the way to God.

Jesus said in that scripture much more than just being the way to the Father, remember he said ... I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life..

The = no other, only Jesus. That includes not even moses or mohammed or any of the prophets, Jesus said explicitly here, that only he is the way ... and then the scripture goes on to say ... NO man cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME

Boy, he sure has authority to be claiming to be the only way to the Father, he says that nobody can get to the Father, not even the prophets or mohammed or whoever except through Jesus.

Would you mind showing me in the Bible where any prophet says clearly that he is the way to the Father and that he is "the" truth, "the" way and "the" life

If you can show me a scripture where a prophet claims to be the ONLY way to Heaven and be THE truth, THE way, and THE life, i'll beleive you that this scripture doesn't prove the diety of Christ.

Thanks

[Alpha]

Hey Scorpi Doubi Doo
http://www.answering-christianity.com/j ... radise.htm

The only time you answer a response with a link is when someone posts a link. This is not a legit response to scorpion. If scorpion gave a link in his previous response then it would have been O.K. to give a link. If someone makes a post in which the material is their's, you gotta respond with your own material. Anyone can post links in response to someone else's material.

Also, the link you gave made bold the quotes where Christ said he came to finish the work of the Father, but what they did not mention was the many times Christ said that his mission was to die. I don't trust that wacky site of yours. It's always leaving out other parts of biblical scripture to fool others.

[Scorpion]

Hi Grandizer,

the website stated...

If you love GOD Almighty with your heart and soul and you are a good person and love people and always try to be the best example to every person you meet, then you will win the eternal life. Accepting Jesus as the mediator between you and GOD Almighty (believing that Jesus died on the cross to purify your sins) is not necessary to win eternal life.

This is contrary to John 14:6 because the rest of the scripture says ...

...NO MAN cometh unto the Father but by ME

Jesus IS the mediator between man and God. The sacrifice on the cross was to create a bridge between mankind and God. In a nutshell, Jesus came to "Reverse The Curse" if you like. It is by his precious blood that our sins are cleansed and forgiven and through beleiving in him that we may have eternal life.

The website also stated...

if we take the meanings of this verse in the same context in Luke 10:25-28 and the other verses that teach about love, harmony and forgiveness, then we would clearly see that the way that Jesus talked about is the goodness in you.

The scripture says nothing about goodness in you or about anything else. Jesus showed his diety very clearly in this scripture. He said that HE IS THE TRUTH, THE way, and THE life, and that NO man can come unto the Father by through HIM.

Now ... If you cant get to the Father except THROUGH Jesus ... Jesus is the mediator between man and God. Nowhere does that scripture suggest it is talking about the "goodness" in you. We are not saved by works, but by grace. We dont have goodness in us, we are natural born sinners. We are a fallen creature in need of a savior. Jesus is our saviour, and by defeating Satan, Death and Hell, we have a way to get to Heaven. If we dont except Jesus's sacrifice, we will stand before Father God on the day of judgment in our own righteousness, but if we except Jesus, then we will stand before God in his righteousness.

Satan will do everything he can to get people not to except Jesus's sacrifice and trick them into thinking it never happened. If only people realized how essential this atonement was.

The truth is that no one comes to the Father (God) except through Jesus. This is not a "popular perception", these are the words of Jesus, the Son of God

Lets read this scripture in context shall we?

1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus said that He was THE WAY. He did not say that He was "a" way, "one" way, or "one of many" ways - He said that He was THE WAY. No Prophet of God ever said that he was THE WAY to God. Jesus Christ is "THE WAY" to the Father--"no man cometh unto the Father but by Me"; He is "THE TRUTH" of all we find in the Father we find in Him, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Col 2:9); and, He is "THE LIFE" that will flow to us and bless us from the God who is approached and thus manifested in Him "this is the true God and eternal life" (1 John 5:20). The main message of this passage is that the Son is the ordained and is the perfect manifestation of God the Father. Jesus also claimed to be the Truth.

“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). The world outside of Christ hates that statement. The truth is Jesus is Lord (cf. Phil. 2:8-11). “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). Jesus made this statement with a sense of supreme authority on the night before His death. This is one of the seven great “I am” statements in the Gospel of John. Jesus directs the thoughts of the disciples to Himself. He is “the way, the truth, and the life.” He answers to our greatest needs in life, and He can do that because He is the “I AM.” “I myself (I with strong emphasis) am the way.” With the “I am” there is the emphatic emphasis, “I and I alone, I and no other” am the way, and the truth, and the life. The “way” is the means to God the Father. He is the only Way. Only this ONE WAY takes us to the Father, and this way is a unique person. The highest occupation for the Christian is Jesus Christ and an increasing personal knowledge of Him. Jesus is the way to the Father; He is the truth incarnate and He is the life to all who believe on Him.

Grandizer: If you are unsure about this scripture, please tell me what you think the scripture means in your opinion. Please do not post lots of sites to me, it wont help. Ask questions and your level of understanding about any particular verse and im sure people will be glad to answer you.

Thanks. God Bless,
Scorpz

[Alpha]

You still won't admot that all prophets are the way to God, whether they said it or not, they are the way as shown in the quote above.
Ok notice this word : GIVEN, God is not given power, God possess the power. So even if I agree with you and say it is given to him, then it is basically given, not something that he possessed. And of course I will always remind you of the fact that Jesus said HE CAN NOT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT THE HELP OF THE FATHER, which simply concludes that we have two contradictory statements. One says he has the power and the other says the opposite.

Scorpion already answered the "only way to God" comment. And as for Christ saying He cannot do anything without the help of the Father, how does that not make him God in the flesh as the Holy Bible implies? If the Father has given Jesus ALL power, made him the way through which salvation comes, and even calls Christ God, why can't Christ be God in the flesh? Not to mention if you see Christ, you see the Father. You don't seem to understand. You can't just pray to God and ignore the sacrifice of Jesus. The Father has made Jesus the way. And nowhere in scripture does Christ say I have to pray in the name of the prophets when praying to the Father. Christ claims He was greater than the prophets and Christ says when you pray to the father, pray in his name.

I'm not really emotional. My argument above is clear, people called him the only son of God and I showed you that they were mistaken by doing so. If Jesus called himself the son of God, then I am fine with that, because we are faced with what that means in the OT as I mentioned above. I don't see Jesus making a contradiction but I see what those people wrote about him have. They called him the only one when he was actually not the only one.

No one in the OT was given all power in heaven and on earth. Christ being the onlt begotten Son of God is not the same as other people being called sons of God. I am a son of God. We are all children of God because without God we would not exist. But Christ's relationship with the Father is clearly different than ours.

I say that he is separated into two because what you write implies it. I have simply stated what Jesus himself said and that is he CAN NOT do anything without the father. If Jesus (*God in the flesh) can not do anything, then how come he is God?

I already explained this. Christ is God in the flesh because (1) the Father has made him the way through which salvation comes. (2) If you see Christ, you see the Father. (3) Christ was given ALL power on earth and in heaven. (4) The Father Himself calls Christ God. What you don't understand is, the Father already refutes you. You say Christ is not God because Christ referred to the Father as God by saying "My God and your God." But the Father says to the Son eventhough I am "thy" God, you are still God. This is the mystery of the Godhead which the Bible refers to. It is not up to you to understand but to bow the knee to God's revelation. In the OT, christ is referred to as "Mighty God" and "Immanuel" (God with us). You cannot say that Immanuel is just a name which represents God just as Jesus is a name which means salvation but does not necessarily mean Christ is salvation, because Jesus' name is not Immanuel. He is called Immanuel in the literal sense because when you see him, you see the Father and when you see him, God is literally with us.

And AGain, I repeat that If Jesus was a prophet, then he would be the only way to the father just like any other prophet. Whether they said it or not, it yields the saem result. Being the only way to the father does not mean he is God at all. If you can just accept that prophets were the way to God as Jesus was, then you would see how your logic is flawed.

Already refuted.

Notice that I was showing the ignorance of the ghost writer of John. He said that they wanted to kill him because he called God his father, yet all jews called God their father. that is my point here.
Still we see Jesus saying taht No one have ever seen the father, and still He who is God (Jesus) does not know when the judgement day is. The claim is that he lost his power as human. I call this SCIENCE FICTION.

Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

1 Corinthians 2:14>But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Why did you add David's name in that Psalm? That is not referring to David but Christ. You always complain about how people added to the Holy Bible, but yet you are adding David's name to a statement which is not about David, but Christ. Read the passage from the Holy Bible I posted above. Then when you read that, answer this question which Christ asks that no one could answer:

What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David............If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? ( Matthew 22:42,45).

If no one can answer that question and Christ claims that the statement is true, then your argument of Christ not being God is also not true because of your lack of understanding.

Notice the word GIVEN, it was given to him from a higher power obviously.

Two things. (1) We all know that Christ humbled Himself though He thought it not robbery to be equal with God [Phillippians 2:5-8]. (2) Though you say the Father gives Christ the power, you ignore the fact that the Father refers to Christ as God and when you see Christ, you see the Father.

This will lead to geneologies stuff. I don't think Jesus is the son of david anyway.Calling him lord, has already been discussed also.

Jesus called God HIS GOD, and yes he is HIS GOD AND OUR GOD.

Already refuted. And I already told you everyone else who is called lord is not the same as Christ being called Lord. According to the Holy Bible (the true word of God), Christ is the Lord of lords (Rev 17:19).

[Bushmaster]

IP for this post
193.19.190.21 [ 21 Posts ] [ Look up IP ]
Users posting from this IP
Grandizer [ 21 Posts ]
Alexei [ 5 Posts ]
Other IP addresses this user has posted from
193.19.190.20 [ 7 Posts ]

[Alpha]

IP for this post
193.19.190.21 [ 21 Posts ] [ Look up IP ]
Users posting from this IP
Grandizer [ 21 Posts ]
Alexei [ 5 Posts ]
Other IP addresses this user has posted from
193.19.190.20 [ 7 Posts ]

Good work Bushmaster

[reject not faith]

How can Jesus be God or the Son of God?
God is all powerful and all knowing and He does what He wishes and says Be and it is. How DARE anyone say that we crucified God, for that is blasphemy! If one believes truly in the power of God how can one say that he had a son who died for our sins? God forgives whom He wishes and when He wishes. If one rejects not faith then surely one can easily see that God is the most supreme and is not bounded by anything, and therefore to conclude that Jesus is God and we pathetic human beings crucified the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe and to say that God has to have His "Son" sacraficed because of some original sin does not contemplate with the original aspects of God as the most Supreme. Jesus is one of the most respectable prophets and man in human history, but he was messenger to deliver the truth to a forsaken world. He did that, but alas what have we done! To proclaim Jesus as God, incarnate or Son of God, for "In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Who then hath the least power against God if His Will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary his mother and all everyone that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between. He createth what He Pleaseth. For God has power over all things."

[Alpha]

Welcome to the forum. Christ was not forced to die. He gave His life willingly:

John 10:17-18>Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Also, God does not edit revelations. Whatever is revealed first is from God. If Islam is a true revelation from God then Mormons also have a case. Christians existed hundreds of years before Muhammed, and Christians believed Christ was God in the flesh (otherwise why would Muhammed say Christ was not the only begotten Son of God).

Also, Daniel 7:13-14 prophesied that a son of man will have all power. Then Christ in Matthew 28:18 says all power is given to Him in heaven and on earth.

[reject not faith]

Why did he give up his life willingly? Does not Jesus in the Bible ask God to remove this cup from him."

My friend please comment on these points:
* if Trinity is the fundamental belief in Christanity then was Jesus so incompetent that he did not introduce this concept in his life time and it took the Christians almost four centuries to establish and explain this concept. Source derived from Reference Volume XIV pg. 295 of THE NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA.
* Does this mean that all the followers of the Prophets before Jesus will go to hell because they did not believe in Trinity?

Christians existed hundreds of years before Muhammed, and Christians believed Christ was God in the flesh These people who belived that Christ was God in the flesh, did they comprehend the word God or the concepts whether philosophical or religious that applied to that term? Remember now that God is all powerful and to see a man being treated in such degrating manners, did that not rasie questions?

Also i do not believe that Jesus gave his life up willingly, but God took it from him. If one has faith then God can do what He wishes and someone does tell God when he wants to die, but God does as he pleaseth. Jesus was to great of man, to amazing of a person and to close to God for man to slay him. Nay he was saved by God and never crucified.

May peace be upon you.

[Bushmaster]

Welcome to the forum.

Wasn't he already in the forum?

There is a saying in my language, you kick someone out from the door, they come back, you kick him out again, they will come back from the chimney!

Just watch how good an example of trolling he is presenting! I read all 9 messages posted so far, and what a coincidence, I am seeing things...

[Believer]

Also i do not believe that Jesus gave his life up willingly, but God took it from him. If one has faith then God can do what He wishes and someone does tell God when he wants to die, but God does as he pleaseth. Jesus was to great of man, to amazing of a person and to close to God for man to slay him. Nay he was saved by God and never crucified.

What you believe is just it...what you believe.
Frankly I see this as BS. Man can slay any man, some of the prophets were slain. Jesus was destined to die, His life was predestined, He was merely executing prophecies.

Matthew 16:21-23
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

You, my friend, have only in mind the things of men.

[reject not faith]

I don't care what you see as BS
Dont just excuse what i wrote as it is "just what you believe"
I have in mind only things of men? What does that mean?

[reject not faith]

Man can slay any man, some of the prophets were slain. Jesus was destined to die

- i thought christians believed that Jesus was God, or Son of God, not a man? Hmmmm. interesting man can slay man, can man slay God?

[Believer]

I don't care what you see as BS
Dont just excuse what i wrote as it is "just what you believe"
I have in mind only things of men? What does that mean?

I meant what all Muslims believe, okay.
Jesus knew what He had to do, and you and Peter just didn't understand.
You don't know what God's plans are, don't be so presumptive.

i thought christians believed that Jesus was God, or Son of God, not a man? Hmmmm. interesting man can slay man, can man slay God?

Jesus possessed two natures. He was fully God and fully Man.
Jesus the man dies for a time, but obviously Jesus as God doesn't die.

[Alpha]

Also i do not believe that Jesus gave his life up willingly, but God took it from him. If one has faith then God can do what He wishes and someone does tell God when he wants to die, but God does as he pleaseth. Jesus was to great of man, to amazing of a person and to close to God for man to slay him. Nay he was saved by God and never crucified.

This is what I'm talking about. Your belief relies on your own logic rather than established logic. Christ said He gave His life willingly, but you don't believe that. But who should I believe, Christ's own words, or the words of others who are speaking for Christ? And please do not say the Bible is corrupted, because there is a load of manuscript evidence to support it. More than any book IN HISTORY. I wish I could say the same for the Qu'ran.

[reject not faith]

All praise is to the One to Whom all Diginity, Honour and Glory are due. He who begets none or is he begotten, He as no equal but He is the ALgmight, Omnipotent. He sent His MEssengers and Prophets to guide humanity towards monotheism; to worship Him Alone.

In the New Testament of the Bible in the fourth chapter of the Gospel according to Mathew the sixth and seventh verses clearly indicate that Jesus is an obedient mortal and God is the Master and Lord
"It is written again, Thous shalt not tmept the Lord, they God."
In this chapter we read that the Devil actually carried the Messiaha nd took him from place to place. How can the Devil carry God? Glory be to God, Who is above such blasphemy!! Then the devil DARES to order him to prostrate before him and worship him, even tempting him with worldy possessions! How can the Devil even dare such an audacity with God? Jesus (may peace be upon him) answers Thou shalt worship the Lord, thy God; And Him only shalt thou serve."
Please my christians friends comment on this.

Also according to Matthew 19:16-17 "And behold one came and said unto him, "Good master what good shall i do that i may have enternal life?" And he said unto him, "Why callest thou me good? (There is) none good but one, God, but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandment."
Also according to Matthew 21:45-46 " And when the chief priests and pharisees had heard his parable, they perceived that he spoke of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude because they took him for a Prophet." Here it is porved that all thsoe who believed in Jesus during his life-time did not believe in him beign God, or the SOn of God or one in the doctrine of Trinity; buty they believed in his prophethood.
Matthew 23:9 "All call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father which is in heaven." From this you will note that fatherhood and sonship is meant to be the relationshiop between the Lord and HIs servants: it is meant ina general sense and not specifically for Jesus.
Matthew 24:36 "But of that day andhour knoweth no man, no, not hte angels of heaven, but my Father only." This shows that the Final Hour is known only to God, but Jesus (God in flesh) his knowledge is imperfect, but God alone is All-Knowing, Omiiscient.

Please comment on these
may peace be upon you