Catholic heresy

[RomeSweetHome]

[1 John 4:1]Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

[1 John 4:2] Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

[1 John 4:3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Definition of a Prophet , would be someone that says Prophecy's.
And if it was a Spirit From God then it would Prophecise that Jesus Christ come in the flesh. Mary Propecised those EXACT same words in a number of apparations.

"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

Jer 7:18-20
18 "The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out libations to other gods in order to spite Me. 19 "Do they spite Me?" declares the LORD. "Is it not themselves they spite, to their own shame?" 20 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, My anger and My wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and on beast and on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground; and it will burn and not be quenched." NAS

There is not and never has been a queen of heaven. Many people have come to a form of Christianity that lacks the power of the truth through apparations and signs. The bride of the King of Kings is the church, not an individual.

[RomeSweetHome]

First of all, we are NOT discussing if there is a queen of Heaven.

we are Discussing, Apparations.

Please read the topic before you post.
But anyhow i will answer your post.

ONE of the MANY reasons Mary is called queen of Heaven is because she remained a Virgin until death. So this earnt her the title of Queen of Virgins, amongst other Virgins martyrs who died for christ. Obviously Mary as the Mother Of christ would and should have a greater title then the other Saints because the Bible declares:

Luke 1:42

"Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.

So therefore she earnt the title Queen of Heaven, which basically implys her above all the other Virgins of God.

and no we DONT burn firewood for Mary, or bake her cakes.


God Bless

"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

You brought apparitions of the Virgin Mary into this thread, so I am keeping to the topic.

Luke 1:46-55

46 And Mary said:

"My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 "For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave;
For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.
49 "For the Mighty One has done great things for me;
And holy is His name.
50 "And His mercy is upon generation after generation
Toward those who fear Him.
51 "He has done mighty deeds with His arm;
He has scattered those who were proud in the thoughts of their heart.
52 "He has brought down rulers from their thrones,
And has exalted those who were humble.
53 "He has filled the hungry with good things;
And sent away the rich empty-handed.
54 "He has given help to Israel His servant,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55 As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and his offspring forever. " NAS

I always like to see Scripture quoted in context. Yes, Mary was blessed, however, where do you get she is more blessed than “the poor in spirit” and where do you get the virgin in perpetuity part? Mary also refers to God as her saviour, which if she was born without original sin as the RCC maintains is an oxymoron, since no sin no need of a saviour.

Matt 1:19-25
20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 "And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins." 22 Now all this took place that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us." 24 And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took her as his wife, 25 and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus. NAS

Of course if you would rather use the Douay-Rheims:

25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her first born son: and he called his name Jesus.

So the apparitions of Mary can be attributed to demonic deception that leads some to view Mary as a demigod, which many Roman Catholics do.

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley, of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus; O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

This is a prayer to Mary. Prayers are offered to deities, not saints (all who are believers in Christ as saints, not just those named so by the RCC.) Who according to the Bible is our advocate? Jesus Christ!

John 14:13 "And whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. NAS
John 16:25-28
25 "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will speak no more to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father. 26 "In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father. 28 "I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father." NAS

All Christians have direct access to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ His Son without any need for an advocate or an intermediary.

[RomeSweetHome]

Very good post Aineo, but theres just a few problems.

Luke 1:46-55

46 And Mary said:

"My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Indeed I agree that Mary needed a savior, and the savior, Jesus SAVED her from original sin. Thats why Jesus IS the savior of Mary.

From the Old Testament we learn that when God sets aside something as sacred and imprints it with His own hand (such as the Ark of the Covenant) that it must be made of the purest materials, unblemished, untouched, and never used for non-sacred purposes either before, during, or after its purpose for being. What is once touched by God in this way must remain pure forever.

We learn these notions from such passages in the Old Testament as the story of the soldiers who saw the Ark of the Covenant begin to fall into the mud and he reached out and grabbed the Ark to prevent it from falling. Despite the fact that he was well-intentioned, he was struck dead on the spot. Why? Because he touched the Holy Ark without having consecrated hands to do so.

Again in the Old Testament we see this notion of pure sacredness. In the Holy of Holies where dwelt the Ark of the Covenant no one could enter except the High Priest once a year. A rope was tied to the ankles of the High Priest before he entered the Holy of Holies. This rope would be used to drag out his body in case he died while in the Holy of Holies. That is how important that the Holiest of holy things that God has set his finger upon MUST be kept untouched and undefiled.

Again in the Old Testament we see this theology of the Sacred in the manner of the Old Testament Sacrifice of the lamb. The lamb had to be a lamb, and not a sheep (in other words, pre-sexual so that the lamb was of course virginal), the lamb had to be free of all blemish and pure. Only then could it be used for sacrifice to God.

Now with this said, we can begin to understand the Marian doctrines. Mary was the Ark of the NEW Covenant. Like the Ark of the Mosaic Covenant she was to hold the very presence of God in her womb. Thus that womb MUST be pure, unblemished, untouched.

Thus Mary HAD to be immaculately conceived to be free from the blemish of original sin. She HAD to live a sinless life (by virtue of being free from the stain of original sin) in order to remain unblemished and pure to be the Ark of God. She had to be virgin and give virgin birth for the same reason. As the Ark of God she had to be unblemished, pure, and untouched.
But after the birth of Jesus she HAD to remain a virgin because of the nature of the holiness and sacredness that God made her womb. Can you imagine let's say, the Chalice of the Blood of our Lord, once it has worn out and cannot be used for the Holy Mass anymore, being used to remove water from the toilet? Such an idea is loathsome. Even though the Chalice is no longer used in Sacred Ministry, it MUST STILL be treated as a Sacred object and if disposed of, disposed of properly.

Although Mary's main mission to give birth to the Savior was over, the sacred vessel of her womb, made holy by the very touch of God, had to remain pure, undefiled, and unblemished. She HAD to be perpetually virgin. If she was not then God was lying about the nature of the sacred in the Old Testament.

Finally, Mary HAD to be assumed into heaven. We do not know for sure if Mary died and then was assumed or if she was assumed without dying. Either way, the sacred vessel of her womb could not be allowed to decay. She HAD to be assumed body and soul into heaven, or otherwise, again, God would have lied in the Old Testament about the nature of the Sacred.

Mary was free from the stain of original sin, but not the effects of original sin -- as in the effects of the world. She suffered worldly sufferings, and was subject to the evils in the world of weather and men. But she was free from the stain of original sin, a singular grace given to her, that allowed her be made sanctified by the merits of the Cross, before the Cross. Thus she was able to remain sinless all her life. This is a singular and wondrous grace given by God to Mary because she HAD to be this way or God could not used her womb as the most sacred Holy of Holies where His presence would dwell in the Ark of the New Covenant.



Now my friend lets talk about this verse:Matt 1:25
"and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus"

This word "until" in Greek is "heos", translates for "until or before", and does not imply anything about what happens after the time indicated.
Please read these brief quotations:
- "As to Michal daughter of Saul, she had no child till the day of her death" (2Sam.6:23 YLT)... does it mean that Michael had children after the day of her death?
- "I am till you grow old" (Is.46:4)... Does it mean that when they grow old God ceases to be?..`
- "The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." (Psalm 110:1)... Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued?"
This verse 25, the last one of Matthew 1, is Matthews's summary, or corollary, or bottom line, of all the previous verses 18-24, on how the conception of Jesus happened, without any intervention of Joseph... to interpret it other way, and specially as that Joseph had sexual relations with Virgin Mary after the birth of Jesus, is to change the whole meaning of the chapter, it is nothing but a false interpretation of Satan.

Aineo

All Christians have direct access to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ His Son without any need for an advocate or an intermediary

Again I agree my friend but....

James 6:15- "...the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." Thus, they pray to the mother of Jesus and to saints because they are among the most righteous people we know about.

The Bible tells us to pray for each other(Intercede), as Catholics, Anglicans and Orthadox Christians, we believe that goes for the dead too.
As the dead are more alive then we are in the ONE BODY of Christ.

Mat 22:32 "He is NOT the God of the dead but of the LIVING"

Also:

Tobit 12:12- "So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you bury the dead."

Im sure if we can PRAY FOR THE DEAD the dead CAN PRAY FOR US.
Also look at: 2 Timothy 1:16-18

Last but not least "dead" Saints Intercede for us.

Revelation 6:9-10
Revelation 5:8
Revelation 11:3

Also Apparations of the blessed Virgin Mary do happen and no not all are demonic. Just like other apparations of saints etc...


Luke 9:29-30 "And as he Prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him, Which were Moses and Elias"


Anymore Questions or accusations?
Anyhow it was my pleasure

God Bless

"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

Anymore Questions or accusations?
Anyhow it was my pleasure

God Bless

"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

You did not answer my questions. As to accusations, I don't see where I accussed you of anything.

You have taken Scripture out of context, rationalized Old Covenant teachings, and used Scriptures about people dealing with people and applied them to the dead.

I will break your response down and when I have it absorbed I will come back to you for further clarification.

So far all I see is ancestor worship, and idolatry.

[webmaster]

Mary wasn't a virgin when she died!

Matthew wouldn't have wrote the following if Mary didn't have more children afterwards. If was written in a past tense.


Matthew 1:25
25.
|2532| and
|3756| not
|1097| did have sexual relations with
|0846| her
|2193| until
|9999| {after}
|3739| -
|5088| she gave birth to
|3588| the
|5207| son
|0846| of her,
|3588| the
|4416| firstborn.
|2532| And
|2564| he called
|3588| the
|3686| name
|0846| of him,
|2424| JESUS.


Strong's Number: 2193
Transliterated: heos
Phonetic: heh'-oce
Text: of uncertain affinity; a conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place): --even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-)til(-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while(-s).


Strong's Number: 3739
Transliterated: hos
Phonetic: hos
Text: including feminine he {hay}; and neuter ho {ho}; probably a primary word (or perhaps a form of the article 3588); the relatively (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that: --one, (an-, the) other, some, that, what, which, who(-m, -se), etc. See also 3757.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/nbi/199.html

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/virgin.htm

[RomeSweetHome]

Aineo

I always like to see Scripture quoted in context. Yes, Mary was blessed, however, where do you get she is more blessed than “the poor in spirit” and where do you get the virgin in perpetuity part? Mary also refers to God as her saviour, which if she was born without original sin as the RCC maintains is an oxymoron, since no sin no need of a saviour.

Ok wait a minute now! I am sure I answered That Mary is most blessed Among all women, as stated in the Bible.

Luke 1:42
"Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb

All women means ALL women, I and the bible didn't say anything about being poor in spirit.

I already gave you a very detailed answer of the perpetuity virginity. Didn't you read anything i wrote? MOST of my writting in the post was about the perpetuity virginity of Mary.

I also answerd your Question about Mary needing a Savior. And I agreed with you that Jesus was indeed her Savior, he saved her from original sin.

So the apparitions of Mary can be attributed to demonic deception that leads some to view Mary as a demigod, which many Roman Catholics do.

Is this a Question that i didnt answer? or a Accusation?
Indeed it is a accusation Mary is NOT God Mary Is the Mother of God.
And is indeed Venerated/honored, NOT worshipped in the Church. We honor Jesus i think we should also honor his mother, dont you?

This is a prayer to Mary. Prayers are offered to deities, not saints (all who are believers in Christ as saints, not just those named so by the RCC.) Who according to the Bible is our advocate? Jesus Christ!

Definition of the word PRAY "to make a request in a humble manner"
Indeed we do make many humble reuests to the Virgin, so she my intercede for us to her Son, our Lord. There are many Saints whom the church doesnt know about, Saints are simply Holy people, nothing more.
Who intercede on our behalf as the Bible teaches:
"....the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."
James 5:16
Thus, we pray(make a humble request) to the mother of Jesus and to saints because they are among the most righteous people they know about.

All Christians have direct access to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ His Son without any need for an advocate or an intermediary.

The Bible teaches us to be ONE BODY IN CHRIST and pray for each other. I am sure you have asked someone to pray for you before.

Now i hope thats all answered even though i already answered them in the other post.

You have taken Scripture out of context, rationalized Old Covenant teachings, and used Scriptures about people dealing with people and applied them to the dead.

I have Not taken anything out of context, i could say the same about you.
The dead are NOT dead but alive.

Mat 22:32 "He is NOT the God of the dead but of the LIVING"

"May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chain 17 -when he arrived in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me. 18 - may the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! And you know very well how much service he rendered in Ephesus. 2 Timothy 1:16-18

Have you read this before?

I will break your response down and when I have it absorbed I will come back to you for further clarification.

I am waiting

So far all I see is ancestor worship, and idolatry.

Indeed. Ancestor worship? Idolatry, we dont worship Idols my friend, we worship the LIVING God. Can you PROVE we are Idol worshippers?The

Protestant Reformers affirmed their belief that Mary, while remaining every-virgin, was truly the Mother of God:

Martin Luther King (1483-1546):

" This immaculate and perpetual virginity forms, therefore, the just theme of our eulogy. Such was the work of the Holy Ghost, who at the Conception and birth of the Son so favoured the Virgin Mother as to impart to her fecundity while preserving inviolate her perpetual virginity."

The French reformer John Calvin (1509-1564):

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor. ... Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary as at the same time the eternal God. (Calvini Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Braunschweig-Berlin, 1863-1900, v. 45, p. 348, 35.)Calvin also upheld the perpetual virginity of Mary.

The Swiss reformer, Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531), wrote:

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.)

Its a Shame that not all christians accept Mary as ever Virgin, even though the Muslims DO.

Webmaster:

6- Luke 2:7: "And she gave birth to her first-born son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths"
The term "first-born" was a legal term under the Mosaic Law referring to the first male child born to Jewish parents regardless of any other children following or not... Hence when Jesus is called the "first-born" of Mary it does not mean that there were second or third-born children.
The Jewish Law required every "first-born" to be consecrated to God forty days after their birth, it was a great privilege to be the "first-born"!: "Consecrate to me all the first-born; whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and of beast, is mine." (Exodus 13:2).
Further, the Greek word "prototokos", "first-born", is used of Christ as born of Mary in Lk.2:7, and of Christ's relationship to His Father in Col 1:15... As the word does not imply other children of God the Father, neither does it imply other children of Mary... except, of course, many spiritual children of God the Father, and many spiritual children of Mother Mary, praise the Lord!.

"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[webmaster]

My brother is First Born!

I am 2nd born!

Your point is?

[RomeSweetHome]

the Greek word "prototokos", "first-born", is used of Christ as born of Mary in Lk.2:7, and of Christ's relationship to His Father in Col 1:15... As the word does not imply other children of God the Father, neither does it imply other children of Mary.

thats my point.
Please read my posts.

God Bless

[webmaster]

Luke 2:7
7.
|2532| And
|5088| she gave birth to
|3588| the
|5207| son
|0846| of her,
|3588| the
|4416| firstborn,
|2532| and
|4683| she wrapped
|0846| him
|2532| and
|0347| laid
|0846| him
|1722| in
|3588| the
|5336| manger,
|1360| because
|3756| not
|2258| was
|0846| for them
|5117| a place
|1722| in
|3588| the
|2646| inn.

Strong's Number: 4416
Transliterated: prototokos
Phonetic: pro-tot-ok'-os
Text: from 4413 and the alternate of 5088; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively): --firstbegotten(-born).

Again
My brother is the First Born!

I am 2nd born!

Your point is?

[RomeSweetHome]

You know what my point is.

And you know that I am correct so you keep posting the same question!
But thats fine.

I have given you the Answer, if you disagree show me why.
I have given you the reasons for my beliefs as stated from the Bible.

Dont ALWAYS take the Bible so literally, and remember it was written in Greek and Hebrew so you might have to go to those languages to find the answer to the problem your looking for.

God Bless.

[webmaster]

I keep posting the same question because you refuse to answer it.

Dont ALWAYS take the Bible so literally

To say that Jesus had brothers/sisters
or that he didn't have brothers/sisters
you have to take the bible literally
to argue either case?

and remember it was written in Greek and Hebrew so you might have to go to those languages to find the answer to the problem your looking for.

Sure like the word doughnut?

dough
[n] a flour mixture stiff enough to knead or roll
[n] informal terms for money

nut
plant: Usually large hard-shelled seed.
artifact: A small square or hexagonal metal block with internal screw thread to be fitted onto a bolt.
quantity: Half the width of an em.
person: A whimsically eccentric person.
person: Someone who is so ardently devoted to something that it resembles an addiction.
body: One of the two male reproductive glands that produce spermatozoa and secrete androgens.

And saying they are
informal terms for money and someone who is devoted to it, thus a doughnut = Someone who loves money just because the words contains the 2 parts.

But when I look up the word doughnuts it says
shape: A toroidal shape.
food: A small ring-shaped friedcake.

Not somebody who loves money.

[Aineo]

Very good post Aineo, but theres just a few problems.

Luke 1:46-55

46 And Mary said:

"My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Indeed I agree that Mary needed a savior, and the savior, Jesus SAVED her from original sin. Thats why Jesus IS the savior of Mary.

Those who are saved by faith in Jesus Christ are saved from their original sin. In other words this applies to all the saints, not just Mary.

From the Old Testament we learn that when God sets aside something as sacred and imprints it with His own hand (such as the Ark of the Covenant) that it must be made of the purest materials, unblemished, untouched, and never used for non-sacred purposes either before, during, or after its purpose for being. What is once touched by God in this way must remain pure forever.

We learn these notions from such passages in the Old Testament as the story of the soldiers who saw the Ark of the Covenant begin to fall into the mud and he reached out and grabbed the Ark to prevent it from falling. Despite the fact that he was well-intentioned, he was struck dead on the spot. Why? Because he touched the Holy Ark without having consecrated hands to do so.

Since the Ark was to be transported by poles and not touched by human hands this statement does not make sense. What made the Ark holy and sacred was the mercy seat and it contents – the tablets of the Law, Aaron’s rod, and a pot of manna.

Again in the Old Testament we see this notion of pure sacredness. In the Holy of Holies where dwelt the Ark of the Covenant no one could enter except the High Priest once a year. A rope was tied to the ankles of the High Priest before he entered the Holy of Holies. This rope would be used to drag out his body in case he died while in the Holy of Holies. That is how important that the Holiest of holy things that God has set his finger upon MUST be kept untouched and undefiled.

The Old Testament also emphasizes purity of clothing, foods, etc. As to the Holy of Holies only the high priest could enter and then only once a year to sprinkle the sacrificial blood on the Day of Atonement. At the moment of Christ’s death the curtain to the Holy of Holies was split from top to bottom removing this requirement for all time. Christ’s once for all sacrifice fulfilled the purpose of the Holy of Holies thereby signifying we no longer need an intermediary.

Again in the Old Testament we see this theology of the Sacred in the manner of the Old Testament Sacrifice of the lamb. The lamb had to be a lamb, and not a sheep (in other words, pre-sexual so that the lamb was of course virginal), the lamb had to be free of all blemish and pure. Only then could it be used for sacrifice to God.

Here you are referring to the Pascal lamb sacrificed at Passover. Doves, bulls, lambs, goats, etc. were also sacrificed for other occasions. So again, this does not apply to Mary since she was not sacrificed for our sins.

Now with this said, we can begin to understand the Marian doctrines. Mary was the Ark of the NEW Covenant. Like the Ark of the Mosaic Covenant she was to hold the very presence of God in her womb. Thus that womb MUST be pure, unblemished, untouched.

Thus Mary HAD to be immaculately conceived to be free from the blemish of original sin. She HAD to live a sinless life (by virtue of being free from the stain of original sin) in order to remain unblemished and pure to be the Ark of God. She had to be virgin and give virgin birth for the same reason. As the Ark of God she had to be unblemished, pure, and untouched.
But after the birth of Jesus she HAD to remain a virgin because of the nature of the holiness and sacredness that God made her womb. Can you imagine let's say, the Chalice of the Blood of our Lord, once it has worn out and cannot be used for the Holy Mass anymore, being used to remove water from the toilet? Such an idea is loathsome. Even though the Chalice is no longer used in Sacred Ministry, it MUST STILL be treated as a Sacred object and if disposed of, disposed of properly.

And here your theology moves to mythology. You agree at the beginning that Mary needed a Savior, now you are saying she did not since in order to be pure enough to be the ark of the new covenant she had to be without sin. We are told in the Bible that Jesus suffered temptations in the same manner as we, yet He did not sin. God cannot be tempted, so Christ had to have original sin, which He got from Mary or He could not have been tempted.

Heb 4:15-16
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. NAS

If Jesus did not inherit man’s propensity to sin from Mary due to her original sin this statement from Hebrews is a lie.

Your comparing a chalice used in mass and childbirth as loathsome is a bit ludicrous, or do you see all childbirth as loathsome? We can compare the chalice used in mass to the wine it contains. What makes the chalice holy for mass: the wine, not the container, since it is the wine that symbolizes the blood of Christ, not the chalice.

Matt 23:16-22

16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated.' 17 "You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering upon it, he is obligated.' 19 "You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 "And he who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it. NAS

Although Mary's main mission to give birth to the Savior was over, the sacred vessel of her womb, made holy by the very touch of God, had to remain pure, undefiled, and unblemished. She HAD to be perpetually virgin. If she was not then God was lying about the nature of the sacred in the Old Testament.

Just where do you get this? The temple furnishings were holy, the altar, the consecrated bread, the lamp stands, and the tables, etc. were holy. The Old Testament is just that the Old, which is replaced with the New. In the New Testament we are told there is neither male nor female, gentile or Jew for all are the same. Now you are telling me this is not true.

Finally, Mary HAD to be assumed into heaven. We do not know for sure if Mary died and then was assumed or if she was assumed without dying. Either way, the sacred vessel of her womb could not be allowed to decay. She HAD to be assumed body and soul into heaven, or otherwise, again, God would have lied in the Old Testament about the nature of the Sacred.

Now you are applying mythology to theology. The rest of what you have posted is pure fantasy and cannot be backed up with anything more than fantasy.

Now my friend lets talk about this verse:Matt 1:25
"and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus"

The webmaster posted the best response to this, “she gave birth to her firstborn son”.

This word "until" in Greek is "heos", translates for "until or before", and does not imply anything about what happens after the time indicated.
Please read these brief quotations:
- "As to Michal daughter of Saul, she had no child till the day of her death" (2Sam.6:23 YLT)... does it mean that Michael had children after the day of her death?
- "I am till you grow old" (Is.46:4)... Does it mean that when they grow old God ceases to be?..`
- "The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." (Psalm 110:1)... Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued?"
This verse 25, the last one of Matthew 1, is Matthews's summary, or corollary, or bottom line, of all the previous verses 18-24, on how the conception of Jesus happened, without any intervention of Joseph... to interpret it other way, and specially as that Joseph had sexual relations with Virgin Mary after the birth of Jesus, is to change the whole meaning of the chapter, it is nothing but a false interpretation of Satan.

Actually you are the one perpetrating a false interpretation based on the Greek and Matthew’s choice of “firstborn” not “only”.

Aineo

All Christians have direct access to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ His Son without any need for an advocate or an intermediary

Again I agree my friend but....

James 6:15- "...the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." Thus, they pray to the mother of Jesus and to saints because they are among the most righteous people we know about.

The Bible tells us to pray for each other(Intercede), as Catholics, Anglicans and Orthadox Christians, we believe that goes for the dead too.
As the dead are more alive then we are in the ONE BODY of Christ.

Lets look at James, in context:

James 5:13-18
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain; and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the sky poured rain, and the earth produced its fruit. NAS

What does this have to do with dead people praying for the living?

Mat 22:32 "He is NOT the God of the dead but of the LIVING"

Also:

Tobit 12:12- "So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you bury the dead."

Im sure if we can PRAY FOR THE DEAD the dead CAN PRAY FOR US.

This section of Tobit is referring to an angel named Raphael, not a dead person.

Also look at:
2 Timothy 1:16-18
16 The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chains; 17 but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me, and found me-- 18 the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day-- and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus. NAS

You are assuming Onesiphorus is dead when in fact Paul is simply stating that Onesiphorus aided him while in prison in Rome. If you look at the prior verse Paul mentions two men who abandoned him. Assumptions, assumptions, ab nauseum.

Last but not least "dead" Saints Intercede for us.

Revelation 6:9-10
9 And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" NAS
Revelation 5:8
8 And when He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. NAS
Revelation 11:3
3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." NAS

In Revelation 6 martyrs (who are referred to as souls not saints) are asking when they will be avenged, not praying for the living; in Revelation 5 “prayers of the saints” does not mean prayers of the dead, but those alive on earth; Revelation 11 can refer to Enoch and Elisha who were translated to heaven and never died – the only people the Bible records as having gone to heaven without dieing.

In the Bible “saints” in most cases refers to the living not the dead. The only place I can find where “saints” can be construed to mean those in heaven is where Paul states the “saints will judge the world”.

Also Apparations of the blessed Virgin Mary do happen and no not all are demonic. Just like other apparations of saints etc...


Luke 9:29-30 "And as he Prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him, Which were Moses and Elias"

One account of Moses and Elias appearing with God is your whole argument? Moses represented the Law and Elias the prophets, to demonstrate to the watching disciples that Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. To base a belief on apparitions in our time on this one event is really reaching.

What you have demonstrated is the RCC has allowed Roman and Greek mythology to taint Christian truth. The Bible does not record the death of Mary so you assume the assumption. The Bible does not record the death of Thomas, or many of the apostles do you assume they were also taken to heaven?

No wonder Luther wanted to reform the Roman Catholic Church.

[RomeSweetHome]

Yes he wanted to reform the church but this is what HE SAYS about Mary.


Martin Luther King (1483-1546):

" This immaculate and perpetual virginity forms, therefore, the just theme of our eulogy. Such was the work of the Holy Ghost, who at the Conception and birth of the Son so favoured the Virgin Mother as to impart to her fecundity while preserving inviolate her perpetual virginity."


13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praises. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain; and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the sky poured rain, and the earth produced its fruit. NAS

READ IT I think its very clear.

Jesus SAVED Mary from Original Sin.
He abolished OUR Sin.

Theres a Difference my friend.

I got to go to work, i will be back with more.

God Bless

[RomeSweetHome]

Aineo

Since the Ark was to be transported by poles and not touched by human hands this statement does not make sense. What made the Ark holy and sacred was the mercy seat and it contents; the tablets of the Law, Aaron’s rod, and a pot of manna.

Very Good, you have Just answered your own Question.

What was the CONTENTS of Mary? was it the Tablets of the Law?, Ararons rod or the pot of the manna? you could not even touch the mercy seat , what made it so Holy as too man would DIE if they TOUCHED it? THINK!

The CONTENTS of Mary was none of the above things it was GOD HIMSELF.

Aineo

And here your theology moves to mythology. You agree at the beginning that Mary needed a Savior, now you are saying she did not since in order to be pure enough to be the ark of the new covenant she had to be without sin. We are told in the Bible that Jesus suffered temptations in the same manner as we, yet He did not sin. God cannot be tempted, so Christ had to have original sin, which He got from Mary or He could not have been tempted.

Look here my friend, JESUS WAS AND IS PERFECT he did NOT have original Sin, nethier did his Mother Mary as she was the ark of the Lord Himself.

Why did Jesus eat, drink, pray, die and be tempted because he was God IN THE FLESH It does NOT mean he had Original sin. It means he was LIKE US. first you say Mary had original sin now you say Christ too? lol please

And I said Mary was SAVED by her and our SAVIOR JESUS FROM ORIGINAL SIN, please READ what I write.

Aineo
Quote:
Heb 4:15-16
15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. NAS
If Jesus did not inherit man’s propensity to sin from Mary due to her original sin this statement from Hebrews is a lie.

Do you Actually READ what you post?
You have again answered your own Accusation.

ONE who HAS BEEN TEMPTED in ALL THINGS AS WE ARE, yet WITHOUT SIN.

Aineo

Matt 23:16-22

16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated.' 17 "You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering upon it, he is obligated.' 19 "You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 "And he who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.

YOU SAY like to see scripture in context, so here I will give it to you in context, please dont pick and choose and interpretate however you like.

. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matt 23:13 (KJV)


2. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matt 23:14 (KJV)


3. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matt 23:15 (KJV)


4. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Matt 23:16-22 (KJV)


5. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Matt 23:23-24 (KJV)

I think you know the answer
We Dont need to believe in The assumption of Mary but we can if we choose too, and I already explained why this is, in a previous post, as I always say to you read my posts. The Assumption isn't Docrtine, you can still be Catholic and reject the assumption.

Onesiphours was DEAD.
Jesus, read the scripture.

And in revelation it says when refereing to the Saints:

"the prayers of the Saints rise before God"

Moses appeared in a Apparation with Elias , Im sure Mary can do the same.

Peace

Now Webmaster I have Answered your Question.

I will answer it again as simple as possible.

The Greek word "Prototokos", First-born is found in Both verses in the Bible, Does God have a 2nd born or 3rd? NO, same applies to Mary.

Col 1:15
"He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation"

Luke 2:7
And she gave birth to her First Born and wrapped him in swaddling clothes"

God Bless

[Aineo]

Hmmmm. It was not the contents of Mary’s womb that saved us, it is Christ resurrected from the tomb that is our hope for salvation. If you are looking for an ark for the New Covenant then the empty tomb is where you will find it. What do you know about Gnosticism? What the Catholic Church teaches about Mary is pure Gnostic heresy. However, lets get back to basics.

Lev 19:31

31'Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
NAS

Deut 18:10-11
10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
NAS

Isa 8:19-20

19 And when they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
NAS

Isa 19:3
3 "Then the spirit of the Egyptians will be demoralized within them;
And I will confound their strategy,
So that they will resort to idols and ghosts of the dead,
And to mediums and spiritists.
NAS

Luke 16:26-31
.'27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, Father, that you send him to my father's house - 28 for I have five brothers - that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'29 "But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them,'30 "But he said, 'No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!"31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'"
NAS

If praying or resorting to idols or ghosts of the dead is part of the New Covenant, then God is a hypocrite. What did Jesus tell the Pharisees when they asked for a sign? That is the only sign given to them and us, the empty tomb.

You have taken James teaching concerning confessing our sins to each other and praying for each other to indicate praying to the physically dead. This interpretation is based in Gnosticism not Biblical truth.

How are we instructed to pray -- To the Father, in the name of the Son and in the power of the Spirit. Show me any Scripture that changes these instructions. I am not talking about Gnostic concepts that have infiltrated Orthodox Christianity, I am asking for Biblical instructions given to the Body of Christ.

Lets get back to your “ark” concept. Peter compares baptism with Noah’s ark. So, if you are looking for an “ark” that saves, there is more Biblical authority to view baptism in that roll.

Jer 3:16-18
16 "And it shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they shall say no more, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' And it shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they miss it, nor shall it be made again. 17 "At that time they shall call Jerusalem 'The Throne of the LORD,' and all the nations will be gathered to it, to Jerusalem, for the name of the LORD; nor shall they walk anymore after the stubbornness of their evil heart. 18 "In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance. NAS

How does this fit with your “new ark of the New Covenant”? The Ark of the Covenant dissapeared in 586 B.C. with the destructions of Jerusalem and was not in the 2nd or 3rd Temples. If the Ark was not important after 586 B.C. why is one needed now?

The Ark of the Covenant was the repository for the tablets of the Law, which if you are looking for similes was born (or given) on Mt. Sinai. Your whole analogy breaks down when you study the purpose and function of the Ark in relation to the life of Jesus Christ.

[Aineo]

One more thought and then I am through:

John 14:6-8
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." NAS

Or if you prefer here are the same verses from the Douay-Rheims:

6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him. And you have seen him.

Now you are trying to tell me their are multiple ways to the Father and those ways are prayers offered to Mary and the saints? If this is not heresy what is it?

[RomeSweetHome]

Because demons are such deceivers (and have turned millions away from the truth), God has forbidden communication with spirits or attempted consultation of the dead: “Let no one be found among you...who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord...” (Deut. 18:10a,11b,12a). “When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?” (Isa. 8:19,20). (The warning is not even to try to contact the “dead,” since in the vast majority of cases, they probably are not the ones being consulted.)

Could it mean when consulting the dead he means the Evil spirits?

Could you tell me what happened here?

Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” “I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”

Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has turned away from you and become your enemy?

The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David.

Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today.

The Lord will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines.”

Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel’s words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night (1 Sam. 28:15-20).

Note that nowhere in this entire passage does it indicate that the spirit conversing with Saul was anyone other than Samuel himself. In fact, each place where the spirit speaks, the textual inference is that Samuel, and no one else, is the speaker. One of the most convincing indications that the spirit indeed was Samuel is this statement made to Saul, evidently the confirmation and fulfillment of a prediction Samuel had made while still alive: “The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David” (1 Sam. 28:17). Samuel, when he was alive, had spoken virtually identical words to Saul: “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it to one of your neighbors—to one better than you [that is, David]” (1 Sam. 15:28).

There is a case in scripture where a lying spirit volunteered to influence the prophets of King Ahab of Israel to lie to him and deceive him (1 Kng. 22:19-23) In opposite to what happened above with samuel.



There are numerous examples in the Bible where angels ministered (that is, gave aid, service, encouragement, and strength) to people. Good angels “...are ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation” (Heb. 1:14). When the prophet Elijah ran for his life from the wicked Jezebel, who wanted him dead, he fled into the desert. Tired of the persecution, he prayed that he would die (1 Kng. 19:2-4). As he slept under a tree,

...an angel touched him and said, “Get up and eat.” He looked around, and there by his head was a cake of bread baked over hot coals, and a jar of water. He ate and drank and then lay down again.

The angel of the Lord came back a second time and touched him and said, “Get up and eat, for the journey is too much for you.” So he got up and ate and drank. Strengthened by that food, he traveled forty days and forty nights... (1 Kng. 19:5-8).

Peace

[RomeSweetHome]

oh and another thing. We dont tell Mary to appear to us, she does it out of LOVE we are NOT consulting her in that way, we simple ask her to pray for us because we dont believe death separates us.

Sometimes Mary appears to Prophecise.

Matthew 17:1-5
After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2
3 And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light.
3
4 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him.
4
Then Peter said to Jesus in reply, "Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
5
While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud cast a shadow over them, 6 then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."

So let me get this straight, Moses, Elias and Samuel can appear to people BUT Mary can't?

1 Corinthians 10
Now in regard to spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware.
2
2 You know how, when you were pagans, you were constantly attracted and led away to mute idols.
3
Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, "Jesus be accursed." And no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the holy Spirit. 4
3 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit;
5
there are different forms of service but the same Lord;
6
there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.
7
To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.
8
To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9
to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit;
10
to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father" (John 14:12). One of his works is intercession. So we pray for one another

I will leave you with this for now

But i will make sure to post again.

Peace

[Aineo]

Saul consulter a witch, the witch of Endor to summon Saul's spirit, angels are not dead humans but are in fact messengers of God. You have proved nothing. Praying to the dead is a total waste of time. You have not given me any Biblical reason or justification for prays offered to anyone other than God, through Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit. As to Mary appearing in these latter days, again these are nothing more than demonic apparations since angels, not the dead, have always been God's messengers until Jesus Christ and since His crucifixion all supernatural appearances have been made by Him.

I am still waiting for direct Biblical justification for praying to Mary and saints. If you have it, bring it on.

[RomeSweetHome]

YOU have not given me ANY prove that we CANNOT ask the Saints for intercesstion, read what you have posted in CONTEXT.

In doesnt matter who Saul cunsulted it happened, the dead Samuel spoke with Paul. get real.

The passages you have posted from the Bible are Talking about a medium, someone who is ALIVE that talks to the dead on your behalf.
Same with spiritist, For example Crossing Over's John Edward show.You have proved NOTHING.

I have shown you passages from the Bible were the dead have appeared to the living.
So it can happen then, but can't happen now? why?

Hebrews 1
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


It doesnt say Angels it says SPIRITS but it could also imply Angels as angels are spirits, we too have a spirit so it could imply dead humans.

The key word here is consult, which in this case through the agency of a
medium is to have a conversation with a Spirit and enquire of it . To pray (make a humble request)
to a saint is not to hold a conversation with them. Isiaah is talking about
something which was common practise at that time and which in these days has
a growing following.
To ban praying to the saint or consider it an abomination because of an
extreme interpretation Isiaah 8:19 is to take on a religious Pol Pot like
mentality.
You must also put Isiaah in context of the old testament. Since the
Ascension of Christ, when Jesus took the Old Testament saints from sheol to
heaven, to be face to face with the Father, large numbers of saints have
also been in heaven, and Revelation indicates they also present our prayers
to God:


"And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and
the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and
with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints"
Revelation 5:8.


The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in
heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the
angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to
God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes
in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).


One might object, saying, "But maybe those weren't prayers to the saints but
prayers to God!" This may well be true. However, a person who says this only
digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven
are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!


Scripture directs us to pray to those in heaven and ask them to pray with
us. Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty
ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord,
all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in
Psalm 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens,
praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his
host!" (Ps. 148:1-2)

Mark 12:26-27

"As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in
> the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham,
> (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead
but of the living."


Continued.............

[Aineo]

You have shown me one passage where a witch called up the shade of Samuel in violation of God's law, which contributed to Saul's loosing his kingdom, and one passage where God was accompanied by Moses and Elias. However, you have not shown me any passages where prayers were offered to dead human beings.

As to taking Scripture out of context, please show me where I have done that.

Hebrews 1:14 is addressing angels, not dead people.
Revelation 5:8 states the 24 elders are holding bowls that are the prayers of the saints. Who are the saints?

1 Cor 1:2-3
2 to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. NAS

I could list more but the saints are the Body of Christ, living people.

NT:40

hagios (hag'-ee-os); from hagos (an awful thing) [compare NT:53, NT:2282]; sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):


KJV - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Even if you want to infer that the prayers of the saints in Revelation 5 are those in heaven it does not saw these prayers are being mediated by dead believers. It merely states the bowls contain their prayers and are rising like incense.

The Psalms you quote are the angels praising God, which is their function. How is this prayers of people being mediated by angels?

Mark 12 is about the resurrection, not prayers or praying to dead people.

How are we instructed to pray in the Bible? To the Father in the name of the Son in the power of the Holy Spirit. That is Biblical now show me where direct instructions are given for us to pray to dead people, regardless of their spiritual state. It this to difficult a request?

[RomeSweetHome]

Luke 20
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Jesus declared that the just dead are "equal to angels" (Lk 20:36)
for God in not the God of the dead, but of the living; "for to Him ALL OF
THEM
ARE ALIVE." (Lk 20:36) Jesus directed these statement to the Sadducees who
did not believe in an after life.

Saint Matthew actually provides even more detail - Matt 22:30
>
> "For IN the RESURRECTION they neither MARY nor are given in marriage
> but are LIKE THE ANGELS in heaven. But REGARDING the RESURRECTION
> of THE DEAD have you not heard that which was spoken to YOU by God.
I AM the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and and the God of Jacob"a quote from Exodus 3 where God is speaking to Moses LONG centuries after
these men have died.

Christ is participating in the debate - and will PROVE the resurrection in
a way that totally crushes the defense of the Sadducees - even those
standing
around will see that Christ took COMMON ground and using that - boxed in the
Sadducees. "having put them to silence"

I will explain the term Worship to you.

In common speech "worship" means the adoration given to God alone. In this
sense Catholics don't worship Mary or any of the other saints. In fact, the
Catholic Church forbids any adoration to be given to any one or any thing
but God. But in an older use of the term "worship" could cover not just the
adoration of God but also the honor given to anyone deserving of honor.
Begin with the word itself. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which
means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To
worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence
to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.
In fact in England a high Court Judge is referred to as your Worship
denoting his high status and honour

But there are different kinds of worship, just as there are different kinds
of honor. The highest honor, and thus the highest worship, is given to God
alone, while the honor or worship given to living men or to saints in heaven
is of a different sort. Idolatry thus does not simply mean giving worship
(in the old sense) to living men or to saints; it means giving them the kind
reserved for God.
Nowadays, there is a problem using the word "worship" because in the popular
mind it refers to the worship of God alone. For practical purposes it has
come to mean nothing else than adoration. Although it was commonly used in
the wider sense as recently as the nineteenth century.
Is this distinction without a difference? It would be if the worship given
to God were the same as the honor given to a saint. But it isn't.
The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be
used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and
the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term
for worship is shakah. Its appropriately used for humans in a large number
of passages. For example, in Genesis 37:7-9 Joseph relates two dreams which God gave him
concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated
literally the passage states: "'behold, we were binding sheaves in the
field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves
gathered round it, and worshipped [shakah] my sheaf.' . . . Then he dreamed
another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, 'Behold, I have
dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were
worshipping [shakah] me.
In Genesis 49:8, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and
concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your
hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons shall worship
[shakah] you." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro:
"Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshipped [shakah] him and
kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the
tent."

So when WE catholics use the term Worship, ethier to Mary or Saints, dont take it how you want to see it. Take it how it is to give Honor, respect and show love.


Hope this helps

"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

I will ask you again, where are the instructions for live people to pray to dead people. You keep coming up with other aspects of a life in Christ, and keep avoiding a direct question. If you can quote me a Scripture that states we are to pray to, not for, not by but to saints you have proven your point.

[RomeSweetHome]

I will ask you again, where are the instructions for live people to pray to dead people. You keep coming up with other aspects of a life in Christ, and keep avoiding a direct question. If you can quote me a Scripture that states we are to pray to, not for, not by but to saints you have proven your point

I have Show you that the prayers of the SAINTS rise up to God like burning incence.

(Rev8:3-4)
"Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the
altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the
prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the
throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints,
ascended before God from the angel’s hand."

I think this is very clear, but seeming as you dont obviously read my posts I will explain yet again.

The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in
heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the
angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to
God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes
in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).


One might object, saying, "But maybe those weren't prayers to the saints but
prayers to God!" This may well be true. However, a person who says this only
digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven
are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!

Clear enough for you?

there are other places in the Bible that state the same thing Just not enough time to post and explain them.
And the bible says we can pray FOR the dead like Paul did for his friend Onesiphours, so im sure they can pray for us, as stated in Revelation above.

Again put your Biblical posts in Context.

1 Timothy 2:
1 First of all, then, I urge
that supplications, prayers, intercessions,
and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions,
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life,
godly and respectful in every way.
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the
sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to
come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one
mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus,

Does it say all men alive? NO it says ALL MEN, meaning, alive or dead. Christ IS the One mediator between God and man, but then why does it say Intercede for each other?

Because;Mediator defined

A mediator is one who brings estranged parties to an amicable agreement. In New Testament theology the term invariably implies that the estranged beings are God and man, and it is appropriated to Christ, the One Mediator. When special friends of God -- angels, saints, holy men -- plead our cause before God, they mediate "with Christ"; their mediation is only secondary and is better called intercession (q.v.). Moses, howover, is the proper mediator of the Old Testament (Gal, iii, 19-20).

And Saints, saints Are Holy People. What kind of a question was that?Catholic saints are holy people and human people who lived extraordinary lives. Each saint the Church honors responded to God's invitation to use his or her unique gifts. God calls each one of us to be a saint

I hope this has finally answered your Questions, even though I have answered them in previous posts.

Now my Question, where does it say you CANT pray(make a humble request) to Saints?

"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
[I exhort therefore, that, first of all] Prayer for the pardon of sin, and for obtaining necessary supplies of grace, and continual protection from God, with gratitude and thanksgiving for mercies already received, are duties which our sinful and dependent state renders absolutely necessary; and which should be chief in our view, and first of all performed. It is difficult to know the precise difference between the four words used here by the apostle. They are sometimes distinguished thus:
[Supplications] Deeeseis (NT:1162). Prayers for averting evils of every kind.
[Prayers] Proseuchas (NT:4335). Prayers for obtaining the good things, spiritual and temporal, which ourselves need.
[Intercessions] Enteuxeis (NT:1783). Prayers in behalf of others.
[Giving of thanks] Eucharistias (NT:2169). Praises to God, as the parent of all good, for all the blessings which we and others have received. It is probable that the apostle gives directions here for public worship; and that the words may be thus paraphrased: "Now, I exhort first of all that, in the public assemblies, deprecations of evils, and supplications for such good things as are necessary, and intercessions for their conversion, and thanksgiving for mercies, be offered in behalf of all men-for pagans as well as for Christians, and for enemies as well as for friends." See Macknight.

(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)


1 Timothy 2:2
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
[For kings] As it is a positive maxim of Christianity to pray for all secular governors, so it has ever been the practice of Christians. When Cyprian defended himself before the Roman proconsul, he said: Hunc (Deum) deprecamur-pro nobis et pro omnibus hominibus; et pro incolumitate ipsorum Imperatorum. "We pray to God, not only for ourselves, but for all mankind; and particularly for the emperors."
Tertullian, in his Apology, is more particular: Oramus pro omnibus Imperatoribus, vitam illis prolixam, imperium securum, domum tutam, exercitus fortes, senatum fidelem, populum probum, orbem quietum, et quaecunque hominis et Caesaris vota sunt. Apol., cap. 30. "We pray for all the emperors, that God may grant them long life, a secure government, a prosperous family, vigorous troops, a faithful senate, an obedient people; that the whole world may be in peace; and that God may grant, both to Caesar and to every man, the accomplishment of their just desires."
So Origen: Euchometha tous basileis kai archontas meta tees basilikees dunameoos kai soophrona ton logismon echontas heuretheenai. Contra Celsus lib. 8: "We pray for kings and rulers, that with their royal authority they may be found possessing a wise and prudent mind." Indeed they prayed even for those by whom they were persecuted. If the state be not in safety, the individual cannot be secure; self-preservation, therefore, should lead men to pray for the government under which they live. Rebellions and insurrections seldom terminate even in political good; and even where the government is radically bad, revolutions themselves are most precarious and hazardous. They who wish such commotions would not be quiet under the most mild and benevolent government.
[That we may lead a quiet and peaceable life] We thus pray for the government that the public peace may be preserved. Good rulers have power to do much good; we pray that their authority may be ever preserved and well directed. Bad rulers have power to do much evil; we pray that they may be prevented from thus using their power. So that, whether the rulers be good or bad, prayer for them is the positive duty of all Christians; and the answer to their prayers, in either case, will be the means of their being enabled to lead a quiet and peaceable life by all godliness and honesty.

(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)


1 Timothy 2:3
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[This is good and acceptable] Prayer for all legally constituted authorities is good in itself, because useful to ourselves and to the public at large, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; and this is its highest sanction and its highest character: it is good; it is well pleasing to God.

(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)


1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[Who will have all men to be saved] Because he wills the salvation of all men; therefore, he wills that all men should be prayed for. In the face of such a declaration, how can any Christian soul suppose that God ever unconditionally and eternally reprobated any man? Those who can believe so, one would suppose, can have little acquaintance either with the nature of GOD, or the bowels of Christ.
[And to come unto the knowledge of the truth] The truth-the Gospel of Christ, should be proclaimed to them; and it is the duty of all who know it, to diffuse it far and wide, and when it is made known, then it is the duty of those who hear it to acknowledge and receive it. This is the proper import of the original word, that they may come, eis (NT:1519) epignoosin (NT:1922) aleetheias (NT:225), to the acknowledgment of the truth-that they may receive it as the truth, and make it the rule of their faith, the model and director of their life and actions.

(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)


1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
[There is one God] Who is the maker, governor, and preserver of all men, of every condition, and of every nation; and equally wills the salvation of all.
[And one mediator] The word mesitees (NT:3316), mediator, signifies, literally, a middle person, one whose office it is to reconcile two parties at enmity; and hence, Suidas explains it by eireenopoios (NT:1518), a peace-maker. God was offended with the crimes of men; to restore them to his peace, Jesus Christ was incarnated; and being God and man, both God and men met in and were reconciled by him. But this reconciliation required a sacrifice on the part of the peace-maker or mediator; hence, what follows.

(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)


1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
[Who gave himself a ransom] The word lutron (NT:3083) signifies a ransom paid for the redemption of a captive; and antilutron (NT:487), the word used here, and applied to the death of Christ, signifies that ransom which consists in the exchange of one person for another, or the redemption of life by life; or, as Schleusner has expressed it in his translation of these words, Qui morte sua omnes liberavit a vitiositalis vi et paenis, a servitute quassi et miseria peccatorum. "He who by his death has redeemed all from the power and punishment of vice, from the slavery and misery of sinners." As God is the God and father of all (for there is but one God, 1 Tim 2:5), and Jesus Christ the mediator of all, so he gave himself a ransom for all; i.e., for all that God made, consequently for every human soul; unless we could suppose that there are human souls of which God is not the Creator; for the argument of the apostle is plainly this:
1. There is one God;
2. This God is the Creator of all;
3. He has made a revelation of his kindness to all;
4. He will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth; and
5. He has provided a Mediator for all, who has given himself a ransom for all.
As surely as God has created all men, so surely has Jesus Christ died for all men. This is a truth which the nature and revelation of God unequivocally proclaim.
[To be testified in due time.] The original words, to (NT:3588) marturion (NT:3142) kairois (NT:2540) idiois (NT:2398), are not very clear, and have been understood variously. The most authentic copies of the printed Vulgate have simply, Testimonium temporibus suis; which CALMET translates: Rendant ainsi temoignage au tems marque; "Thus rendering testimony at the appointed time." Dr. MACKNIGHT thus. Of which the testimony is in its proper season. WAKEFIELD thus: "That testimony reserved to its proper time" ROSENMULLER: Haec est doctrina, temporibus suis reservata. "This is the doctrine which is reserved for its own times;" that is, adds he, quae suo tempore in omni terrarum orbe tradetur, "the doctrine which in its own time shall be delivered to all the inhabitants of the earth." Here he translates marturion (NT:3142), doctrine; and contends that this, not testimony, is its meaning, not only in this passage, but in 1 Cor 1:6; 2:1, etc.
Instead of marturion (NT:3142), testimony, one manuscript, Cod. Kk., 6:4, in the public library, Cambridge, has, musteerion (NT:3466), mystery; but this is not acknowledged by any other manuscript, nor by any version. In D*FG the whole clause is read thus: hou (NT:3739) to (NT:3588) marturion (NT:3142) kairois (NT:2540) idiois (NT:2398) edothee (NT:1325). The testimony of which was given in its own times. This is nearly the reading which was adopted in the first printed copies of the Vulgate. One of them now before me reads the passage thus: Cujus testimonium temporibus suis confirmatum est. The testimony of which is confirmed in its own times." This reading was adopted by Pope Sixtus V, in the famous edition published by him; but was corrected to the reading above, by Pope Clement VIII. And this was rendered literally by our first translator: Whos witnessinge is confermyd in his timis. This appears to be the apostle's meaning: Christ gave himself a ransom for all. This, in the times which seemed best to the divine wisdom, was to be testified to every nation, and people, and tongue. The apostles had begun this testimony; and, in the course of the divine economy, it has ever since been gradually promulgated and at present runs with a more rapid course than ever.

(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)

Pay Special attention to verse 5, which answers all your questions. There is ONE mediator Jesus Christ, this excludes Mary or any dead saint.

Since all you can do is run circles around one simple question I shall retire from this thread. You can't prove your point with any Scripture and you know it. That is why you are adding a private interpretation to instructions about prayer.

[RomeSweetHome]

What are you doing? lol

You have posted the entire book of Timothy?

I decided to use 1 Timothy 2:
Because you yourself quoted from it in a previous post.

1 Timothy 2:

1 First of all, then, I urge
that supplications, prayers, intercessions,
and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions,
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life,
godly and respectful in every way.
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the
sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to
come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one
mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus,

Mediator defined

A mediator is one who brings estranged parties to an amicable agreement. In New Testament theology the term invariably implies that the estranged beings are God and man, and it is appropriated to Christ, the One Mediator. When special friends of God -- angels, saints, holy men -- plead our cause before God, they mediate "with Christ"; their mediation is only secondary and is better called intercession (q.v.). Moses, howover, is the proper mediator of the Old Testament (Gal, iii, 19-20).



OPEN your eyes.

I have proved every single point.
You on the other hand didnt answer my Question where in the Bible does it say you cant pray(make a humble reguest) to saints?

Where in the Bible does Jesus say "I am God, Worship me?"
Nowhere, but you still KNOW He is God.


Rev8:3-4)
"Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the
altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the
prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the
throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints,
ascended before God from the angel’s hand."

I think this is very clear, but seeming as you dont obviously read my posts I will explain yet again.

The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in
heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the
angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to
God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes
in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).


One might object, saying, "But maybe those weren't prayers to the saints but
prayers to God!" This may well be true. However, a person who says this only
digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven
are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!


"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father" (John 14:12).

One of his works is intercession. So we pray for one another.

Peace

"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

1 Tim 2:4-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. NAS

As I said this one verse totally voids your thesis. There is ONE mediator, not Mary plus a thousand others, between God and man. Therefore our prayers are to be offered to God (Matt 6:9) in the name of the Son (John 14:13) in the Spirit (Eph 6:18 )

Now, can you do this one simple exercise, post for me a similar statement showing your Biblical authority for changing this one sentence and insert Mary or any saint's name. If you can't then you have not proven your point.

[RomeSweetHome]

1 Tim 2:4-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. NAS
As I said this one verse totally voids your thesis. There is ONE mediator, not Mary plus a thousand others, between God and man. Therefore our prayers are to be offered to God (Matt 6:9) in the name of the Son (John 14:13) in the Spirit (Eph 6:18 )

Now, can you do this one simple exercise, post for me a similar statement showing your Biblical authority for changing this one sentence and insert Mary or any saint's name. If you can't then you have not proven your point.

Now im just begining to think theres something wrong with your eye sight.
Or perhaps your english?

READ the Bible verses and Quote them in context.

Does the Bible Contradict itself? ovbiously not.

1 Timothy 2:

1 First of all, then, I urge
that supplications, prayers, intercessions,
and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions,
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life,
godly and respectful in every way.
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the
sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to
come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one
mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus,

If the Bible says Jesus is the ONE mediator between God and men, then why in the first verse it says I URGE that supplications, prayers, INTERCESSTIONS and thanksgivings be made for all men.

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you? If you have that IS intercesstion, be he alive or dead.

No there is no contradiction. The word mediator Defined is:

A mediator is one who brings estranged parties to an amicable agreement. In New Testament theology the term invariably implies that the estranged beings are God and man, and it is appropriated to Christ, the One Mediator. When special friends of God -- angels, saints, holy men -- plead our cause before God, they mediate "with Christ"; their mediation is only secondary and is better called intercession (q.v.). Moses, howover, is the proper mediator of the Old Testament (Gal, iii, 19-20).

Do u have a better explanation, I would love to hear it.

And you still haven't answered my Questions, in the previous post.

OPEN your eyes


"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

I will ask you the same question. Can you read simple English? Give me chapter and verse that states we are to pray to the dead for the benefit of the living in any name other than the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Maybe you don't understand that the Bible is given to the living to benefit and instruct the living, not the physically dead.

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. NAS

As believers we are to intercede in prayer for our fellow living human beings, since the dead are beyond our purview.

You keep avoiding a direct question, which we both know you cannot answer. So why not just admit it?

[RomeSweetHome]

Jesus, Holy Mary.

You are ignorant or something is wrong you you.

As believers we are to intercede in prayer for our fellow living human beings, since the dead are beyond our purview.

You have Just stated in a previous post that there is only ONE mediator between God and men. Now you are saying as a believer we can intercede for each other blu blu , why dont you quit yapping and accept the FACT, that the verses above or infact, any other part of the bible that it doesnt say the dead cannot intercede for us.

The FACT is the above verse which you have translated to suit your needs, Doesnt say intercede only for the living. Does it?
No then be quite. and even if it did you kept quoteing, THERE IS ONLY ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, you say.

Stop changing your mind once you find out you are incorrect and then translate it to only mean living when in fact it doesnt.

If there is only One mediator there is NO NEED for Intercesstion, But you DONT understand it in Context.

I have defined the word Mediator for you twice now. Accept the fact that ethier, (1)the bible contradicts itself, (2)intercesstion is true(as you NOW just accepted among the living only, which you also seemed to have also rejected before), (3)or your wrong.

I would choose number 3.

As believers we are to intercede in prayer for our fellow living human beings, since the dead are beyond our purview

What? So because the dead are beyond our preview, they cannot intercede for us? could you please SHOW ME this in scripture, or yet again you are translating however you wish?
So if i ask my brother who just went on a space mission to pray for me because im going threw hard times it wont work because he is beyond my preview?

Dont limit God.

READ the scripture and YOU ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.

Where does it say the dead CANNOT intercede for the Living?
Show me. we have already JUST come to the agreement that the living can intercede for each other, thank god you OPENED your eyes a bit
now open the rest.

Where does it say in the bible that Jesus said, "I am God worship me?"

He didnt and we still know he is God.

Accept that you have made no argument to me it was too easy.

[Aineo]

Do you know how to use a dictionary?

INTERCESSION

INTERCESSION

(in-ter-sesh'-un) (pagha`, "to make intercession"; originally "to strike upon," or "against"; then in a good sense, "to assail anyone with petitions," "to urge," and when on behalf of another, "to intercede" (Ruth 1:16; Jer 7:16; 27:18; Job 21:15; Gen 23:8; Isa 53:12; Jer 36:25). A similar idea is found in enteuxis, used as "petition," and in the New Testament "intercession." The English word is derived from Latin intercedo, "to come between," which strangely has the somewhat opposed meanings of "obstruct" and "to interpose on behalf of" a person, and finally "to intercede." The growth of meaning in this word in the various languages is highly suggestive. In the Greek New Testament we find the word in 1 Tim 2:1; 4:5; entugchano, is also found in Rom 8:26-34):
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

MEDIATION

I Introductory. - (1) "Mediation" in its broadest sense may be defined as the act of intervening between parties at variance for the purpose of reconciling them, or between parties not necessarily hostile for the purpose of leading them into an agreement or covenant.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

We are to intercede in prayer, "ask and you shall receive". Jesus mediates between God and man. What do you find about my posts that violate these principles?

As to my interpretation, the verses I quoted don't specifically state we can intercede for the dead either. So common sense and Biblical truth must come into play at some point.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. NAS

If we could intercede and mediate for the dead the Temple sacrifices and fervent prayer would make the crucifixion of Christ a waste and Christianity a farce and the lake of fire would be a fable.

I have often wondered how there could be a one-world religion and the more I learn about Catholicism the more I understand how this will come about. Gnosticism. However, that is another thread.

I asked a simple question and so far all you have done is impugn my intelligence. Can you post chapter and verse where we are instructed to pray to some entity other than God in the name of some entity other than Christ? That simplifies my question.

[RomeSweetHome]

INTERCESSION

(in-ter-sesh'-un) (pagha`, "to make intercession"; originally "to strike upon," or "against"; then in a good sense, "to assail anyone with petitions," "to urge," and when on behalf of another, "to intercede" (Ruth 1:16; Jer 7:16; 27:18; Job 21:15; Gen 23:8; Isa 53:12; Jer 36:25). A similar idea is found in enteuxis, used as "petition," and in the New Testament "intercession." The English word is derived from Latin intercedo, "to come between," which strangely has the somewhat opposed meanings of "obstruct" and "to interpose on behalf of" a person, and finally "to intercede." The growth of meaning in this word in the various languages is highly suggestive. In the Greek New Testament we find the word in 1 Tim 2:1; 4:5; entugchano, is also found in Rom 8:26-34):
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

Do you know how to read what you post, before you submit it?

1 Timothy 2:

1 First of all, then, I urge
that supplications, prayers, intercessions,
and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions,
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life,
godly and respectful in every way.
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the
sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to
come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one
mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus,

MEDIATION

I Introductory. - (1) "Mediation" in its broadest sense may be defined as the act of intervening between parties at variance for the purpose of reconciling them, or between parties not necessarily hostile for the purpose of leading them into an agreement or covenant.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)
We

Aha point is? I was the one that pointed this out to you!

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. NAS

are you trying to say the Holy Spirit is telling you what to say? I then proclaim the same thing.

If we could intercede and mediate for the dead the Temple sacrifices and fervent prayer would make the crucifixion of Christ a waste and Christianity a farce and the lake of fire would be a fable.

You actually got it the wrong way round, they Intercede for us.
Actually we catholics believe very much in the Lake of fire-hell, but then your entire claim falls apart, why? we believe in Purgatory also.

I have often wondered how there could be a one-world religion and the more I learn about Catholicism the more I understand how this will come about. Gnosticism. However, that is another thread.

so what you suggest I do?

I asked a simple question and so far all you have done is impugn my intelligence. Can you post chapter and verse where we are instructed to pray to some entity other than God in the name of some entity other than Christ? That simplifies my question.

I have answered every single Question you have made, with biblical references.
Indeed you have asked many Questions to dishonor the blessed Virgin.
Myself and fallen were talking about Apparations, then you come and discredit them. Not only that you started talking about Mary not being a Queen out of the blue, then you started asking Questions about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, then you claimed we worship her and now you are asking Questions about Intercesstion of Mary and the saints.

You have tried hard to Discredit the Blessed Virgin but to no avail, I have Answered all your queries.

I think its my turn to ask Questions, And indeed I did. I did I asked you two Questions and you haven't even made a attempt to answer them.

1. Where does it say in the Bible that the dead cannot Intercede on our behalf?

2. where does Jesus say "I am God, worship me?"

He doesn't, but we still KNOW he is God.

Aineo for a person who says that we shouldn't ask the saints to pray for us: I certainly hope that you never ask anyone on earth to pray for you because that makes you guilty of not going through Jesus to the Father. You'd be going through an intermediary if you ask someone you know to pray for you, and according to your logic, that's wrong. The fact is that its Biblical, and if you don't accept the teachings of the Church. It's obvious that you're not going to change your mind, and we're not going to change ours. Under those circumstances, we have an impasse.

"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

Do you know how to read a post before you respond to it?

I asked a simple question and so far all you have done is impugn my intelligence. Can you post chapter and verse where we are instructed to pray to some entity other than God in the name of some entity other than Christ? That simplifies my question.

If you can't give me a simple yes or no to this question, they cease rationalizing a heretical teaching that is based on Gnostic heresy and not Biblical truth.

I have a Roman Catholic friend who spent 18 years studying to be a Jesuit priest who suddenly decided to read the Bible and became a dentist. 18 years of education proved to him that Catholic doctrine is heresy not truth. So if you want to show me the error of my ways get real and Biblical. Are the saints in heaven interceding for saints on earth? I don't know and neither do you since the Bible does not share that information. If your whole thesis is they are I can accept and agree with you, however, you are avoiding my question with illogical and heretical teachings you cannot back up with the Bible.

Jesus taught to pray in this manner: "Our Father who is in Heaven". Can you show me where the Bible instructs us to pray "Mary pray for me"? Can't you get it through your thick skull that prayers are offered only to dieties? Is that to complicated a concept for you? Apparently it is since you can't respond with anything more than heretical rhetoric, and personal interpretations that cannot be backed up with the Bible. Read Luke 16 and then tell me that the dead intercede for the living. Abraham is a saint who was asked to intercede for the living. Read his reply and then show me where this is reversed.

[RomeSweetHome]

And so what? your friend is one individual in the world, because he disagrees with the church then his automatically right? ok because of this story I will now convert, lol please be realistic.
the statistics show thousands of people returning and converting to the church every year, not only is it already the biggest church and it is still growing. I have many protestant friends who have studied the church teaching and have decided Protestantism is a man made denomination, consisting of roughly 33,200 different denominations. pick and choose my friend.

I belong to the ONE Holy Roman catholic Apolistic Church.



Jesus himself is constantly interceding for us in heaven as is the Holy Spirit:

Hebrews 7:25 Consequently [Christ] is able for all time to
save those who draw near to God through
him, since he always lives to make
intercession for them.


Romans 8:
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our
weakness; for we do not know how to pray as
we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes
for us with sighs too deep for words.
27 And he who searches the hearts of men
knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because
the Spirit intercedes for the saints according
to the will of God...
33 Who shall bring any charge against God's
elect? It is God who justifies;
34 who is to condemn? Is it Christ Jesus,
who died, yes, who was raised from the dead,
who is at the right hand of God, who indeed
intercedes for us?


The saints who have gone before us are joined to Christ in a way that we can only imagine but we try to emulate their sanctity on earth which is our way of joining ourselves to Christ. One way we do this is by intercessory prayer for each other.

1 Timothy 2:
1 First of all, then, I urge
that supplications, prayers, intercessions,
and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions,
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life,
godly and respectful in every way.
3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the
sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to
come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one
mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus,

It is indeed biblical that we pray for each other while on earth. Not only for those within the household of faith, but also for those OUTSIDE the Christian faith. How much MORE so will we do this when we are in Heaven?


He said that it wasn't in the Bible, and I couldn't think of any references of the top of my head that defended this belief, but I did say that this was a belief of Christians before the Bible was written. Am I presuming rightly in saying this?

Actually, prayers to and for the dead were an old Jewish custom which was carried over into the Church. There are in fact several relevant scriptures:

2Maccabees 15:

11 [Judas Maccabeus] armed each of them not so much with
confidence in shields and spears as with the
inspiration of brave words, and he cheered
them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision,
which was worthy of belief.
12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had
been high priest, a noble and good man, of
modest bearing and gentle manner, one who
spoke fittingly and had been trained from
childhood in all that belongs to excellence,
was praying with outstretched hands for the
whole body of the Jews.
13 Then likewise a man appeared,
distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and
of marvelous majesty and authority.
14 And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man
who loves the brethren and prays much for
the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the
prophet of God."
15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and
gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave
it he addressed him thus:
16 "Take this holy sword, a gift from God,
with which you will strike down your
adversaries."
17 Encouraged by the words of Judas, so
noble and so effective in arousing valor and
awaking manliness in the souls of the young,
they determined not to carry on a campaign
but to attack bravely, and to decide the
matter, by fighting hand to hand with all
courage, because the city and the sanctuary
and the temple were in danger.

Revelation
5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four
living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell
down before the Lamb, each holding a harp,
and with golden bowls full of incense, which
are the prayers of the saints;

6: 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under
the altar the souls of those who had been
slain for the word of God and for the witness
they had borne;
10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O
Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long
before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood
on those who dwell upon the earth?"
11 Then they were each given a white robe
and told to rest a little longer, until the
number of their fellow servants and their
brethren should be complete, who were to be
killed as they themselves had been.


8: 3 And another angel came and stood at the
altar with a golden censer; and he was given
much incense to mingle with the prayers of all
the saints upon the golden altar before the
throne;
4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the
prayers of the saints from the hand of the
angel before God.
5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it
with fire from the altar and threw it on the
earth; and there were peals of thunder,
voices, flashes of lightning, and an
earthquake.

16:6 For men have shed the blood of saints and
prophets, and thou hast given them blood to
drink. It is their due!

18: 20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, O saints and
apostles and prophets, for God has given
judgment for you against her!

We can see in these passages that intercession of the saints was a given in the Biblical worldview. There is no evidence of "soul-sleep" or of indifference to the fate of those on earth. Furthermore, we must remember what was said of Jesus:

Hebrews 7: 25 Consequently he is able for all time to
save those who draw near to God through
him, since he always lives to make
intercession for them.

Because Jesus "always lives" he will of necessity make intercession for men on earth. When we couple this to what Our Lord himself said:

John 11:
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection
and the life; he who believes in me, though
he die, yet shall he live,
26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall
never die. Do you believe this?"

Those who are alive in Christ even now in heavenly glory will emulate him in all things, including intercession for those on earth.

Anyway, what I'd like to know is: 1.When did Protestants start believing that heavenly intercession was some kind of pagan necromancing,

This was a polemical comment the origin of which I don't know. I do know that such a charge was levied by anti-Catholics in the 18th Century especially those from Scotland. It is a silly charge because necromancy is a practice of ritual magic in which a spirit is mediumistically conjured from the dead such as happened in 1Samuel 28:3ff. The invocation of the saints in prayer is no such thing. We do not conjure their presence. Instead we know that they stand in the presence of Christ and we petition them to join their prayer with ours before Him. We do not call them down to earth, rather we lift our prayers up to heaven.

2. Why did they believe this,

Protestant soteriology is/was hopelessly confused. While it acknowledges that the holy dead are in the presence of Christ after death, they act as if they are no longer a living part of the Church. I have heard John MacArthur claim that the saints in heaven have amnesia about the people and events they left behind on Earth. any fool who has read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man or Revelation knows that this is not Biblical. The Protestants honestly thought that the intercessory prayers through the saints would detract from the glory due to God. But did not the Bible tell us:

Job 42:
7 After the LORD had spoken these words to
Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite:
"My wrath is kindled against you and against
your two friends; for you have not spoken of
me what is right, as my servant Job has.
8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven
rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up
for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant
Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his
prayer not to deal with you according to your
folly; for you have not spoken of me what is
right, as my servant Job has."

James 5: 16 Therefore confess your sins to one
another, and pray for one another, that you
may be healed. The prayer of a righteous
man has great power in its effects.

When we invoke the intercession of the saints, we are only doing what Scripture has shown us to be an effective way of bringing petitions before God.

At what point did Christians believe that people in Heaven were praying for them,

We have evidence from tombs in the 2nd Century of requests for prayers directed to the dead.

4. When did the Church actually start teaching that people in Heaven were praying for us still on Earth?

This was a Jewish custom and was believed as far as I know from the very beginning of the Church.


"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

Interesting post. I guess I did not make myself clear. I posted that the saints in heaven can be interceding for the saints on earth, and you in fact posted that this is true, with Scripture. However, that does not answer my question about praying to saints. Yes, Christ intercedes for us, we are to pray (intercede) for those outside our faith. But, you have not established we are to pray to saints. Our prayers are to be addressed to the Father.

You appeal to Jewish traditions. What did Jesus say about the Jewish traditions?

Matt 23:13-39

13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14["Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you shall receive greater condemnation.]
15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obligated.' 17 "You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering upon it, he is obligated.' 19 "You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 "And he who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 "Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say,' If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets. ' 31 "Consequently you bear witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? 34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 "For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ' Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'" NAS

Now, since you have shown you can use a Bible where are the instructions to pray to the physically dead, even if they are spiritually alive in heaven. Does this clarify my question?

[RomeSweetHome]

Indeed it does clarify your Question.

But I asked you two Questions and you still haven't answered them.

the Bible does not say "PRAY TO SAINTS", Just as it doesnt say "JESUS IS GOD" It says it in other ways such as:

Rev8:3-4
"Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the
altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the
prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the
throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints,
ascended before God from the angel’s hand."

The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in
heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the
angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to
God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes
in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).

One might object, saying, "But maybe those weren't prayers to the saints but
prayers to God!" This may well be true. However, a person who says this only
digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven
are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!

Would you care to tell me what eles it could mean?

[Aineo]

John 8:57-59
57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
NAS

The Bible does specifically state that Jesus is God in this verse and others. The Jewish Covenant name for God is "I AM". The Jews knew what Jesus was claiming, which is why they picked up stones to throw at Him. You want other Scripture that show Jesus is God? Compare:

Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. NAS

With

Colossians 1:16
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. NAS

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. NAS

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. NAS

As to the 24 Elders, we first met them in Revelation 4:

Rev 4:9-11
9 And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 "Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created." NAS

After the great tribulation commences we see them holding golden bowls filled with the prayers of the saints, those in heaven and those on earth. This in no way implies that we as living humans are to pray to physically dead, but spiritually alive saints. To state it is, is to add to what John records.

If I missed your questions it was because I was looking for an answer to my question, so I apologize for not responding to your questions. Did I answer them now?

[RomeSweetHome]

The Bible does specifically state that Jesus is God in this verse and others. The Jewish Covenant name for God is "I AM". The Jews knew what Jesus was claiming, which is why they picked up stones to throw at Him. You want other Scripture that show Jesus is God? Compare:

Well, I do believe Jesus IS God, But I was merely showing you that the Bible doesnt say that Jesus said "I am God", Just like it doesnt say "Pray to Saints" Although the Bible does show us he is God in other ways, like the biblical quotes you referred too and many more.

And how we catholics interpretate the Bible there are many refrences that indicate that asking for intercesstion among the physically dead is not wrong.
even though it doesnt say "pray to saints" just like we catholics believe Jesus Is God, even though he doesnt say I am God. But its very clear that he is God.

You still have not answered my first Question though.

Where in the Bible does it say that the phyically dead cannot hear us?

"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

Well, I do believe Jesus IS God, But I was merely showing you that the Bible doesnt say that Jesus said "I am God", Just like it doesnt say "Pray to Saints" Although the Bible does show us he is God in other ways, like the biblical quotes you referred too and many more.

Jesus did say "I am God" in John 8:58 by applying the only term Jews used for their covenant God "I AM". So your thesis is totally defeated, at least Biblically. The Bible is clear in many verses that Jesus is God, and it does not take "personal interpretations" to find these references.

Your question is where does the Bible state the physically dead cannot hear us, the answer is none that I know of. However, that does not prove we are to pray to the physically dead. You are using what is known as an argument of silence. What the Bible does state about prayer is to pray to "the Father". This is a direct instruction. Now even if the physically dead can hear our prayers, where are the Biblical instructions to pray to the physically dead? You have attempted to use verses that state Jesus intercedes for us, however, Jesus was physically resurrected, so this part of your argument does not hold water, Jesus is not dead.

And how we catholics interpretate the Bible there are many refrences that indicate that asking for intercesstion among the physically dead is not wrong.

My only answer to this esoteric interpretation is to again post:

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. NAS

even though it doesnt say "pray to saints" just like we catholics believe Jesus Is God, even though he doesnt say I am God. But its very clear that he is God.

Well again, Jesus did say He is God, and even if you want to ignore John 8 the Bible specifically states in many verses that Jesus is God, so you don’t need a personal interpretation to believe this to be true, it is plainly stated. On the other hand praying to the physically dead, as you have admitted, is not specifically found in Scripture. Catholics used to apply a personal interpretation to Genesis 1 and claimed the earth is flat and the center of the universe, which led to the persecution of Copernicus and Galileo during the inquisition (another concept not based in Biblical truth).

What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Nothing! So if I use your reasoning, can I ignore the direct Biblical teachings on same gender sexual activity? You see how “personal interpretations” can lead to gross error. The Bible specifically states that “elders” are to be the husband of one wife, yet Catholics require their priests to be celibate and this would make Peter ineligible to be the first Pope, since he was married, more “personal interpretation”. However, all of this should be left for other threads.

So far all you have shown me is that you are using “intercession” and the fact Jesus (a living being who is God) intercedes for us allows you to practice a form of idolatry by praying to saints elevated by giving them credit for miracles performed by the Holy Spirit.

You have not established your thesis and never will using “personal interpretations”.

[Aineo]

Here is a list of Bible references regarding who we should pray to, intercession, and a good discussion on intercession:

1 Samuel 7:5
5 Then Samuel said, "Gather all Israel to Mizpah, and I will pray to the LORD for you." NAS
1 Kings 8:44
44 "When Thy people go out to battle against their enemy, by whatever way Thou shalt send them, and they pray to the LORD toward the city which Thou hast chosen and the house which I have built for Thy name, NAS
1 Kings 8:48
48 if they return to Thee with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies who have taken them captive, and pray to Thee toward their land which Thou hast given to their fathers, the city which Thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for Thy name; NAS
2 Chronicles 6:34
34 "When Thy people go out to battle against their enemies, by whatever way Thou shalt send them, and they pray to Thee toward this city which Thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for Thy name, NAS
Job 22:27
27 "You will pray to Him, and He will hear you;
And you will pay your vows.
NAS
Job 33:26
26 Then he will pray to God, and He will accept him,
That he may see His face with joy,
And He may restore His righteousness to man.
NAS
Psalms 32:6
6 Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to Thee in a time when Thou mayest be found;
Surely in a flood of great waters they shall not reach him.
NAS

Isaiah 45:20
20 "Gather yourselves and come;
Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations;
They have no knowledge,
Who carry about their wooden idol,
And pray to a god who cannot save. (can a saint dead or alive save you?)
NAS

Jeremiah 29:7
7 'And seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf; for in its welfare you will have welfare. ' NAS
Jeremiah 29:12
12 'Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. NAS
Jeremiah 37:3
3 Yet King Zedekiah sent Jehucal the son of Shelemiah, and Zephaniah the son of Maaseiah, the priest, to Jeremiah the prophet, saying, "Please pray to the LORD our God on our behalf." NAS
Jeremiah 42:4
4 Then Jeremiah the prophet said to them, "I have heard you. Behold, I am going to pray to the LORD your God in accordance with your words; and it will come about that the whole message which the LORD will answer you I will tell you. I will not keep back a word from you." NAS
Matthew 6:6
6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will repay you. NAS
Acts 8:24
24 But Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."
NAS
1 Corinthians 11:13
13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered? NAS
2 Corinthians 13:7
7 Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we should appear unapproved. NAS

Hebrews 7:25
25 Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
NAS

Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
KJV
Romans 8:27
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
KJV
Romans 8:34
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
KJV
Romans 11:2
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
KJV
Hebrews 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
KJV

INTERCESSION

10. The Priest and Intercession: How far intercession was regarded as a special duty of the priesthood it is not very easy to determine. The priestly office itself was undoubtedly intercessory. In the Priest and offering of the sacrifice even for the individual, and certainly in the national functions, both of the regular and the occasional ceremonies, the priest represented the individual or the community. In Joel 2:17 the priests are distinctly bidden to "weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O Yahweh." Mal 1:9 appeals to them for intercession to God, and the graphic scene in 1 Macc 7:33-38 shows the priests interceding on behalf of the people against Nicanor.

11. Intercession in the Gospels: In the New Testament, all prayer necessarily takes a new form from its relation to Our Lord, and in this intercessory prayer shares. At the outset, Christ teaches prayer on behalf of those "which despitefully use you" (Matt 5:44 the King James Version). How completely does this change the entire spirit of prayer! We breathe a new atmosphere of the higher revelation of love. The Lord's Prayer (Matt 6:9-13) is of this character. Its initial word is social, domestic; prayer is the address of children to the Father. Even though some of the petitions are not original, yet their place in the prayer, and the general tone of the Master's teaching, exhibit the social and altruistic spirit, not so pervasive of the older dispensation. "Thy kingdom come" leads the Order of petitions, with its essentially intercessory character. The forgiveness of others, which is the measure and plea of our own forgiveness, brings even those who have wronged us upon the same plane as ourselves, and if the plea be genuine, how can we refuse to pray for them? And if for our enemies, then surely for our friends.

In Matt 7:11 f, the good things sought of the Father are to be interpreted as among those that if we desire from others we should do to them. And from this spirit the intercessory prayer cannot be absent. We find the spirit of intercession in the pleas of those who sought Christ's help for their friends, which He was always so quick to recognize: the centurion for his servant (Matt 8:13); the friends of the paralytic (Matt 9:2-6), where the miracle was wrought on the ground of the friends' faith. Of a similar character are the requests of the woman for her child and the Lord's response (Matt 15:28 ); of the man for his lunatic son (17:14-21). There is the suggestion of the intercessory spirit in the law of trespass, specifically followed by the promise of the answer to the prayer of the two or three, agreed and in fellowship (Matt 18:15-20), with the immediately attached precepts of forgiveness (verses 21-35). A remarkable instance of intercession is recorded in Matt 20:20-23, where the mother of Zebedee's sons makes a request on behalf of her children; the added expression, "worshipping him," raises the occasion into one of intercessory prayer. Our Lord's rebuke is not to the prayer, but to its unwisdom.
It is needless to review the cases in the other Gospels. But the statement of Mark 6:5 f, that Christ could not perform mighty works because of unbelief, sheds a flood of light upon one of the important conditions of successful intercession, when contrasted with the healing conditioned by the faith of others than the healed. One of the most distinct examples of intercessory prayer is that of the Lord's intercession for Peter (Luke 22:31 f), and for those who crucified Him (Luke 23:34). The place of intercession in the work of Christ is seen clearly in Our Lord's intercessory prayer (see INTERCESSION OF CHRIST), where it is commanded by definite precept and promise of acceptance. The promise of the answer to prayer in the name of Christ is very definite (John 16:24). Christ's high-priestly prayer is the sublimest height of prayer to God and is intercessory throughout (John 17); John 16:26 does not, as some have held, deny His intercession for His disciples; it only throws open the approach to God Himself.

12. Intercessory Prayers of the Church: Acts introduces us to the working of the fresh elements which Christ gave to life. Hence, the prayers of the church become Christian prayers, involving the wider outlook on others and on the world at large which Christianity has bestowed on men. The prayer of the assembled believers upon the liberation of the apostles breathes this spirit (Acts 4:24-30). The consecrating prayer for the seven was probably intercessory (Acts 6:6; compare Acts 1:24). How pathetic is the plea of Stephen for his murderers (Acts 7:60)! How natural is intercession (Acts 8:24)! Peter at Joppa (Acts 9:40); the church making prayer with- out ceasing for Peter (Acts 12:5,12); the prayer for Barnabas and Saul at Antioch (Acts 13:3); Paul and Barnabas praying for the churches (Acts 14:23); the church at Antioch commending Paul and Silas to the grace of God (Acts 15:40); Paul and the elders of Ephesus (Acts 20:36), are all examples, more or less defined, of intercessory prayer.

13. Intercession Found in the Epistles: In the Epistles we may expect to find intercession more distinctly filled with the relation of prayer through Christ. Paul gives us many examples in his Epistles: for the Romans (Rom 1:9); the Spirit's interceding (8:27); Paul's prayer for his race (10:1); his request for prayers (15:30); the help that he found from the prayer of his friends (2 Cor 1:11); prayer for the Corinthian church (2 Cor 13:7); for the Ephesians (Eph 1:16-23; 3:14-21; see also Eph 6:18; Phil 1:3-11,19; Col 1:3,9; 4:3; 1 Thess 1:2; 5:23,25; 2 Thess 1:2); a definite command that intercession be made for all men and for kings and those in authority (1 Tim 2:1-2); his prayer for Timothy (2 Tim 1:3); for Philemon (verse 4); and prayer to be offered for the sick by the elders of the church (James 5:14-18: see also Heb 13:18-21; 1 John 5:14 ff).

II. Intercession Perfected in Christ's Office and in the Church. - This review of the intercession of the Scriptures prepares us for the development of a specific office of intercession, perfectly realized in Christ. We have seen Moses complying with the people's request to represent them before God. In a large and generous spirit the leader of Israel intercedes with God for his nation. It was natural that this striking example of intercessory prayer should be followed by other leaders, and that the gradually developed system of religious worship should furnish the conception of the priest, and especially the high priest, as the intercessor for those who came to the sacrifice. This was particularly the significance of the great Day of Atonement, when after offering for himself, the high priest offered the sacrifice for the whole people. This official act, however, does not do away with the intercessory character of prayer as offered by men. We have seen how it runs through the whole history of Israel. But it is found much more distinctly in the Christian life and apparently in the practice of the Christian assembly itself. Paul continually refers to his own intercessory prayers, and seeks for a similar service on his own behalf from those to whom he writes. Intercession is thus based upon the natural tendency of the heart filled by love and a deep sympathetic sense of relation to others. Christ's intercessory prayer is the highest example and pattern of this form of prayer. His intercessions for His disciples, for His crucifiers, are recorded, and the sacred record rises to the supreme height in the prayer of John 17. In this prayer the following characteristics are to be found:

(1) It is based upon the intimate relation of Jesus to the Father. This gives to such prayer its justification; may it be said, its right. (2) It follows the completest fulfilment of duty. It is not the mere expression of desire, even for others. It is the crown of effort on their behalf. He has revealed God to His disciples. He has given to them God's words; therefore He prays for them (John 17:6,7-9). (3) It recognizes the Divine, unbroken relation to the object of the prayer: "I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep," etc. (verse 11). (4) The supreme end of the prayer is salvation from the evil of the world (verse 15). (5) The wide sweep of the prayer and its chief objects-unity with God, and the presence with Christ, and the indwelling of the Divine love. The prayer is a model for all intercessory prayer. See, further, INTERCESSION OF CHRIST; PRAYERS OF CHRIST; OFFICES OF CHRIST.

III. Intercession of the Holy Spirit. - In connection with the subject of intercession, there arises a most interesting question as to whether the Holy Spirit is not presented in Scriptures as an intercessor. The text in which the doctrine seems to be taught is that of Rom 8:26 f: "In like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." By far the larger number of expositors have understood by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit. The older commentators, in general, refer to the Holy Spirit. Tholuck, Ewald, Philippi, Meyer, most of the American theologians and English commentators, as Shedd, Alford, Jowett, Wordsworth, interpret it in the same way.
Lange and Olshausen refer it to the human spirit. Undoubtedly, the "groanings" have led to the denial of the reference to the Holy Spirit. But the very form of the word translated "helpeth" indicates cooperation, and this must be of something other than the spirit of man himself. The undoubted difficulties of the passage, which are strongly urged by Lange (see Lange's Comm. on Rom 8:26), must be acknowledged. At the same time the statement seems to be very clear and definite. An explanation has been given that the Holy Spirit is here referred to as dwelling in us, and thus making intercession. The Divine Spirit is said to be a Spirit of supplication (Zech 12:10). The distinction which is made between the intercession of Christ in heaven in His priestly office and that of the Holy Spirit interceding within the souls of believers, referred to by Shedd (see Commentary on Romans), must be carefully used, for if pressed to its extreme it would lead to the materialization and localization of the Divine nature. Moreover, may not the intercession of Our Lord be regarded as being partially exemplified in that of the Spirit whom He has declared to be His agent and representative? If Christ dwells in believers by His Spirit, His intercession, especially if subjective in and with their spirits, may properly be described as the intercession of the Holy Ghost.

(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

[RomeSweetHome]

Nice list of intercesstions that you have given me.

But they can be translated to mean more then what you imply, again read them in Context.
The bible according to Jehavahs Witnesses Does NOT imply Jesus was God in any way. So by you telling me that its very clear, is not fact fact to the Jehovas Witnesses only to yourself, and whomsoever agrees with you, for example myself on this very point.
So basically according to us Catholics we can see very cearly that some of the passages you quoted from the bible imply Intercesstion for all men inculding the physically dead.

As you have admitted there is NO passage in the Bible that indicates the physically dead cannot intercede for us. there is more evidence that they can hear us and intercede for us then there is to suggest otherwise.


I did not say Jesus was dead. Never have.

Mk 12:26-27
"As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in
the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham,
(the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead
but of the living. You are greatly misled."

Clearly this put in the correct interpretation of "THE DEAD" Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob to my knowledge have not been resurrected, yet in Mk 12:26-27 God is described as their God who is the God of the LIVING.
They Abraham, Jacob and Issac are LIVING.

Perhaps the most impressive example is the Lord himself venerating John the Baptist,

Matt 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist...

In another instant the Lord not o­nly venerates the woman who anointed him, but also decrees that a memorial shall be made to her,

Matt 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Here we have a direct order from Christ not o­nly to venerate the saints, but also to commemorate them in our public worship. This is why we say at the beginning of the Commemoration of the Saints in the Liturgy, “As this O Lord is the command of Thine o­nly begotten Son that we share in the commemoration of Thy saints.” It’s a command of the Lord!

I dont have much time to write, at the moment but i will be sure to post again shortly.

Peace

[Aineo]

As you have admitted there is NO passage in the Bible that indicates the physically dead cannot intercede for us. there is more evidence that they can hear us and intercede for us then there is to suggest otherwise.

Although we both speak English, we apparently don't have a common understanding of the language. I posted I agree that the saints in heaven can be intercessers. Where we disagree is praying to them, which you keep avoiding with a passion.

Here is what you advised me:

But they can be translated to mean more then what you imply, again read them in Context.

Okay, lets put the Mark Scripture you quoted in full context:

Mark 12:18-27

18 And some Sadducees (who say that there is no resurrection) came to Him, and began questioning Him, saying, 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies, and leaves behind a wife, and leaves no child, his brother should take the wife, and raise up offspring to his brother. 20 "There were seven brothers; and the first took a wife, and died, leaving no offspring. 21 "And the second one took her, and died, leaving behind no offspring; and the third likewise; 22 and so all seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 "In the resurrection, when they rise again, which one's wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife." 24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures, or the power of God? 25 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 "But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken." NAS

This is a discussion of the resurrection of the dead. What does this have to do with prayer?

You posted:

Matt 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist...

Full context:

Matt 11:11
11 "Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. NAS

Doesn't support your thesis now does it?

You posted this:

Matt 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

Full context:

Matt 26:10-13
10 But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you bother the woman? For she has done a good deed to Me. 11 "For the poor you have with you always; but you do not always have Me. 12 "For when she poured this perfume upon My body, she did it to prepare Me for burial. 13 "Truly I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done shall also be spoken of in memory of her." NAS

The fact she annoted Him for buriel is what makes her worthy of being remembered and spoken of. However, this does not mean she should be venerated above anyother saint (believer). To believe she is requires you label Paul a bold faced liar:

Gal 3:23-29

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. NAS

You can prove almost anything from the Bible by taking verses or partial verses out of context. The Bible says there is no God:

Ps 14:1
"There is no God." NAS

I am retiring from this thread; since it is a total waste of my time and yours. As you mentioned the JW's "interpret" Scripture their way and are considered a cult; a cult that teaches Christ has already returned only spiritually, will never return physically, that Jesus is not God, and the Trinity is a farse. BTW, they also have their own translation of the Bible that totally ignores Greek grammer. Fundamentalists believe the Bible only, Sola Scriptura, your church adds gnostic beliefs and tradition.

So on this I rest my case. You have not shown even pulling Scripture out of context where praying (an act of worship) to any saint is allowed, commanded, or even alluded to in Scripture.

PRAYER

Scriptural History. Prayer, constituting as it does the most direct expression of religious feeling and consciousness, has been, from the beginning, the principal means by which men, created in the image of God, have given expression of their attitude toward Him; and from the earliest times, ever since in the days of Enoch when "men began to call upon the name of the Lord" (Gen 4:26), it has formed an integral part of the public worship of God.
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

[RomeSweetHome]

As For the discusstion on Intercession that we had;

Aineo for a person who says that we shouldn't ask the saints to pray for us: I certainly hope that you never ask anyone on earth to pray for you because that makes you guilty of not going through Jesus to the Father. You'd be going through an intermediary if you ask someone you know to pray for you, and according to your logic, that's wrong. The fact is that its Biblical, and if you don't accept the teachings of the Church. It's obvious that you're not going to change your mind, and we're not going to change ours. Under those circumstances, we have an impasse.

But on the other hand you have opened another topic by the accusations you keep making.

What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Nothing! So if I use your reasoning, can I ignore the direct Biblical teachings on same gender sexual activity? You see how “personal interpretations” can lead to gross error. The Bible specifically states that “elders” are to be the husband of one wife, yet Catholics require their priests to be celibate and this would make Peter ineligible to be the first Pope, since he was married, more “personal interpretation”. However, all of this should be left for other threads.

Is Celibacy Biblical?

Until Christ came along (Mt 19:12), and then Paul (1 Cor. 7:32-35), the only state of life known was marriage. The rabbis taught that a man was only half a man if he wasn't married by 20. But even in the Old Testament some of the prophets, like Elijah and Jeremiah, chose celibacy. By Jesus' time the great rabbis spoke of the possibility of "marrying Torah," that is, dedicating their whole life to the study of the Word. Paul was one who did, both before and after his conversion. Jesus is, of course, THE WORD, and infinitely more deserving of total dedication than the written word.

It should not be surprising, therefore, that Jesus should speak of some who would remain celibate ("eunuchs") for the sake of the Kingdom of God (Mt 19:12). St. Paul not only continued his pre-conversion celibacy as a Christian but recommended it for those who would be dedicated to serving God in this world (1 Cor. 7:7, 17, 32-35). He was speaking to a general audience and so he does not oblige it. But observe what he says in verse 17, "Only, everyone should live as the Lord has assigned, just as God called each one. I give this order in all the churches." This coincides with the admonition of Jesus to follow the vocation given by God, whether celibacy (Mt 19:12) or marriage (v.11).

Now Jesus said that if one could accept celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom one should and Paul says it is the best way for those dedicated to the Kingdom, and BOTH of them lived this total dedication to the will of the Father for the salvation of souls. Given the mentality of the world, both Jewish and Pagan, it was impossible at the beginning to find mature candidates for the priesthood who were not already married. Only with the arrival of a generally Christian milieu, where virginity and celibacy were honored into adult life, would celibate candidates for Holy Orders be generally available. Not surprisingly, then, the Church discerned with time that the gift of celibacy from God (who alone can give such a gift), together with the desire to serve God and His people, was an indication of a vocation to the priesthood. THIS has not always and everywhere been imposed in the Church, but almost immediately in Church history we find it recommended and even required in some places. Although Latin Rite Catholic priests for the last 1000 years have had to be celibate, Eastern Rite Catholic priests and priests of the Orthodox Churches (not in union with Rome) do not. However, ALL bishops in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches MUST be celibates. They represent Christ to the people in their dioceses and Christ's bride is the Church (Eph 5:21-33) not someone else. So, it is entirely fitting that bishops not marry EVER and that priests not marry either, though in some traditions it is allowed PRIOR to ordination.

The fact that the apostles were married says nothing about the practice, since they were Jewish and followed the practices of their day, until Christ came along. Tradition affirms that they remained celibates after they followed Christ.

With the grace of Redemption came the possibility of celibacy and virginity for the sake of the Kingdom of God for more than the privileged few. It is a total gift of self to the Lord, fitting for those whose vocation is dedicated to love and service of God and neighbor. Unfortunately, it is something the worldly who do not understand the power of God have difficulty accepting, then as now.

Did Jesus really make St Peter the first Pope?

In Catholic tradition, the foundation for the office of the pope is indeed found primarily in Matthew 16:13-20. Here, Jesus asked the question, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" The Apostles responded, "Some say John the Baptizer, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." Our Lord then turned to them and point-blank asked them, "And you, who do you say that I am?"

St. Peter, still officially known as Simon, replied, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Our Lord recognized that this answer was grace-motivated: "No mere man has revealed this to you, but My heavenly Father."

Because of this response, our Lord said to St. Peter, "You are 'Rock,' and on this rock I will build My Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The name change itself from Simon to Peter indicates the Apostle being called to a special role of leadership; recall how Abram's name was changed to Abraham, or Jacob's to Israel, or Saul's to Paul, when each of them was called to assume a special role of leadership among God's people.

The word "rock" also has special significance. On one hand, to be called "rock" was a Semitic expression designating the solid foundation upon which a community would be built. For instance, Abraham was considered "rock" because he was the father of the Jewish people (and we refer to him as our father in faith) and the one with whom the covenant was first made.

On the other hand, no one except God was called specifically "rock," nor was it ever used as a proper name except for God. To give the name "rock" to St. Peter indicates that our Lord entrusted to him a special authority. Some antipapal parties try to play linguistic games with the original Greek Gospel text, where the masculine-gender word "petros," meaning a small, moveable rock, refers to St. Peter while the feminine-gender word "petra," meaning a massive, immoveable rock, refers to the foundation of the Church. However, in the original Aramaic language, which is what Jesus spoke and which is believed to be the original language of St. Matthew's Gospel, the word "Kepha," meaning rock, would be used in both places without gender distinction or difference in meaning. The gender problem arises when translating from Aramaic to Greek and using the proper form to modify the masculine word "Peter" or feminine word "Church."

"The gates of hell" is also an interesting Semitic expression. The heaviest forces were positioned at gates; so this expression captures the greatest warmaking power of a nation. Here this expression refers to the powers opposed to what our Lord is establishing-the Church. (A similar expression is used in reference to our Lord in Acts 2:24: "God freed Him from the bitter pangs of hell, however, and raised Him up again, for it was impossible that death should keep its hold on Him.") Jesus associated St. Peter and his office so closely with Himself that He became a visible force protecting the Church and keeping back the power of hell.

Second, Jesus says, "I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." In the Old Testament, the "number two" person in the Kingdom literally held the keys. In Isaiah 22: 19-22 we find a reference to Eliakim, the master of the palace of King Hezekiah (2 Kings 18:17ff) and keeper of the keys. As a sign of his position, the one who held the keys represented the king, acted with his authority and had to act in accord with the king's mind. Therefore, St. Peter and each of his successors represent our Lord on this earth as His Vicar and lead the faithful flock of the Church to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Finally, Jesus says, "Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven." This is rabbinic terminology. A rabbi could bind, declaring an act forbidden or excommunicating a person for serious sin; or a rabbi could loose, declaring an act permissible or reconciling an excommunicated sinner to the community.

Here, Christ entrusted a special authority to St. Peter to preserve, interpret and teach His truth. In all, this understanding of Matthew 16 was unchallenged until the Protestant leaders wanted to legitimize their rejection of papal authority and the office of the pope. Even the Orthodox Churches recognize the pope as the successor of St. Peter; however, they do not honor his binding jurisdiction over the whole Church but grant him a position of "first among equals."

St. Peter's role in the New Testament further substantiates the Catholic belief concerning the papacy and what Jesus said in Matthew 16. St. Peter held a preeminent position among the Apostles. He is always listed first (Mt. 10:14; Mk. 3:16-19; Lk. 6:14-1 5; Acts 1:13) and is sometimes the only one mentioned (Lk. 9:32). He speaks for the Apostles (Mt. 18:21; Mk. 8:28; Lk. 12:41; Jn. 6:69).

When our Lord selects a group of three for some special event, such as the Transfiguration, St. Peter is in the first position. Our Lord chose to teach from St. Peter's boat. At Pentecost St. Peter preached to the crowds and told of the mission of the Church (Acts 2;14-40). He performed the first miraculous healing (Acts 3:6-7). SL Peter also received the revelation that the Gentiles were to be baptized (Acts 10:9-48 and sided with St. Paul against the need for circumcision (Acts 15). At the end of his life, St. Peter was crucified, but in his humility asked to be crucified upside down.

As Catholics, we believe that the authority given to St. Peter did not end with his life but was handed on to his successors. The earliest writings attest to this belief. St. Irenaeus in his Adversus Haereses described how the Church at Rome was founded by St. Peter and St. Paul and traced the handing on of the office of St. Peter through Linus, Cletus (also called Anacletus), and so on, through 12 successors to his own present day, Pope Eleutherius. Tertullian in De Praescriptione Haereticorum asserted the same point as did Origen in his Commentaries on John, St. Cyprian of Carthage in his The Unity of the Catholic Church and many others.

Granted, the expression of papal authority becomes magnified after the legalization of Christianity and especially after the fall of the Roman Empire and the ensuing political chaos. Nevertheless, our Church boasts of an unbroken line of legitimate successors of St. Peter who stand in the stead of Christ We must always remember that one of the official titles of the pope, first taken by Pope Gregory the Great is "Servant of the Servants of God."

Continued............

[RomeSweetHome]

Aineo

What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Nothing! So if I use your reasoning, can I ignore the direct Biblical teachings on same gender sexual activity? You see how “personal interpretations” can lead to gross error. The Bible specifically states that “elders” are to be the husband of one wife, yet Catholics require their priests to be celibate and this would make Peter ineligible to be the first Pope, since he was married, more “personal interpretation”. However, all of this should be left for other threads.

You say, What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Nothing!

This shows me how much you know your Bible.
The Bible Is Gods word yes? Jesus Is God, yes?

Then Jesus must have said this as the Bible Is Gods Word;

1 Cor 6:9-11

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Sometimes the Bible uses the word effeminate instead of the word homosexuals although it means the same thing.

Please read the Bible and stop posting things if you are not sure of them.


"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

Click on the blue banner in my signature, you will find every Bible reference to homosexuality. However, show me one from the 4 Gospels.

You have used what Jesus said in the Gospels to establish your thesis for veneration of the saints and totally ignored the rest of the Bible, and now you want to state Jesus is God and so He did say something about a subject by quoting Paul? That is known as hypocrisy.

BTW, and this is from memory, here are all the Biblical verses dealing with homosexuality in order, including those used out of bigotry and not truth:

1. Genesis 19:5
2. Leviticus 18:22
3. Leviticus 20:13
4. Deuteronomy 23:17
5. Judges 19
6. Romans 1:26-27
7. 1 Corinthians 6:9
8. 1 Timothy 1:10
9. Jude 7

Now, lets see you do the same with instructions to pray to Mary, and I want to see a name, not some far fetched personal interpretation. Jesus said to pray to God and Jesus said to pray to Him. Now show me where we are instructed to pray to Mary, St. Peter, St. Paul, etc.

While your at it, since you see all Scripture as being from Jesus, why does the Roman Catholic Church violate this commandment:

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. DRV

[RomeSweetHome]

Click on the blue banner in my signature, you will find every Bible reference to homosexuality. However, show me one from the 4 Gospels.

You have used what Jesus said in the Gospels to establish your thesis for veneration of the saints and totally ignored the rest of the Bible, and now you want to state Jesus is God and so He did say something about a subject by quoting Paul? That is known as hypocrisy.

First of all I have not only used the four Gospels to prove my point on Veneration of the Saints. Thats a lie. I used Revelation, Romans and other Books inculding Timothy. And you know this, would you like me to put the chapter and verse for each of them?

Does it matter what part of the Bible I got my Quote from?
Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit(Jesus,God) to write what he did, so Does it matter? That is why Corinthians is part of the Bible.
Do you only consider the 4 Gospels to be Inspired? Were they written by Jesus? No, just as Corinthians wasn't.

What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Nothing! So if I use your reasoning, can I ignore the direct Biblical teachings on same gender sexual activity? You see how “personal interpretations” can lead to gross error. The Bible specifically states that “elders” are to be the husband of one wife, yet Catholics require their priests to be celibate and this would make Peter ineligible to be the first Pope, since he was married, more “personal interpretation”. However, all of this should be left for other threads.

If you said he said Nothing and he Inspired Paul to write by the Holy Spirit then he did say it USING Paul.
Now you want to Quote all the refrences? lol, my friend the Bible is extremely clear on where it stands concerning Homosexuality.
I need not click on any blue banner.

You say, What did Jesus say about homosexuality? Nothing!

This shows me how much you know your Bible.
The Bible Is Gods word yes? Jesus Is God, yes?

Then Jesus must have said this, as the Bible Is Gods Word.

1 Cor 6:9-11

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Sometimes the Bible uses the word effeminate instead of the word homosexuals although it means the same thing.

Now, lets see you do the same with instructions to pray to Mary, and I want to see a name, not some far fetched personal interpretation. Jesus said to pray to God and Jesus said to pray to Him. Now show me where we are instructed to pray to Mary, St. Peter, St. Paul, etc.

Lets see where the Bible says specifically not too?

I have already given you the Catholic Churches reasons, Stop being ignorant and asking the same Questions.

While your at it, since you see all Scripture as being from Jesus, why does the Roman Catholic Church violate this commandment

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. DRV

I have also already answered this very Question in a previous post.
Shows how good your memory is, infact all your good at is asking Questions and then you fail because you keep asking the same ones.

But I will answer your Question on making statues as clear to you as possible.

To make statues. However, this is not what the text says in light of the entire Bible. The passage here can be interpreted to mean, "You can't make any statues; and don't you dare worship them" or simple, "Don't make any statues for the purpose of worshipping them."
The first interpretation is false because if we cannot make anything in the likeness of anything in Heaven or on earth, then:

we would not be allowed to draw pictures of anything on earth or in Heaven
we would not be allowed to take photos
we would not be allowed to make paintings
God would contradict Himself by commanding images/statues to be made
So YOU would be disobeying your own commandment by taking pictures, drawing stuff, or even putting up a cross or crucifix, because all of these things are something in the likeness of something on earth below!

There are lots of passages in the Bible in which God commands people to make statues/images for religious use:

Exodus 25:18-19

"You shall make two cherubim (Statues of Angles) of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub at one end and one cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim of one piece with the mercy seat at its two ends".

Now, if this is not a divine command to make statues, what is?

Let us look at the brass serpent back in Moses' time (Numbers 21:8-9)

Then the Lord said to Moses,"Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live". And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if the serpent bit any man, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived. Again we find God commanding Moses to make a statue for a religious purpose.

So the answer to your Question: why does the Roman Catholic Church violate this commandment Is, No we Dont violate the commandment.

Read the Bible.

"Oh my Jesus I love you to the point of madness" St Foustina

[Aineo]

You are wasting my time. I used that bit about homosexuality to prove a point. If you took the time just to read my banner you would have understood my reference. I am an ex-gay man who fights all hypocrisy attributed to Christ on the net. The Bible is the inerrant word of God and is worthy of study, something you apparently have not done since you cannot even answer why your churches have images of things on earth. As to vereration of dead people you have not demonstrated that at all.

I see you cannot answer my question, so there is no sense going on with this.

Roman Catholicism is a cult that worships the dead, as demonstrated by offer prayers to the dead and filling their churches with images before which they burn candles and again pray.

Just as you attempt to prove your point about praying to the saints and Mary gay theology uses that argument about Jesus not saying anything about homosexuality. That RomeSweetHome is why I used that example.

You get one more chance to answer where in the Bible we are told to pray to the physically dead, and why Catholics fill their churches with idols. Then this thread is closed.

[RomeSweetHome]

I need not answre to a ignorant person anything.
I do not care if you are Gay or if you are ex gay, it doesnt make you anymore knowledgeable on the matter concerning the Bible.

I have proved every point. You are not one to debate with because you cannot admit your wrong.
If you think we worship Idols and the dead, then so be it for you. But we know and I have given you the reasons for everything done inside the Catholic church.

You my friend need to accept the truth.

We are a cult? lol, look who's talking. Do you belong to one of the 33,200 denominations of protestantism? Or have you made your own denomination up?
Perhaps you want to be gay again, if you do guess what, you can be a gay Anglican and even reach as far up to be a bishop in that Church.

No my dear friend we are the ONE true Catholic Church.
You should read my posts clearly, and open your eyes.

Its easy to accuse people of things because your are ignorant. I have already defined the word worship for you and I wont again.

Think what you want but as God is my witness, you have made my faith in the Holy Catholic Church stronger and I thank you for that one thing.



Peace Out.

[Aineo]

I would rather be an ignorant man who believes "Pray like this "Our Father who are in heaven" and as Jesus said "what ever you ask in my name" overrides your personal private interpretation of letters written to real live people for real live people.

You can ignore God's direct word all you want, but it is you who will pay the ultimate price.

I pity you and all who void God's truth for gnostic practices and traditions based on Roman pagan gods.

Thread closed.