Angel Gabriel ... Or Fallen Angel?

[Scorpion]

I Want To Discuss In This Topic About The Angel Gabriel ...

See we that Mohammed said the Angel Gabriel appeared to him ... Is this true? And what other proof do we have outside the Quran that it definately was an Angel? its analyze some important issues about this ...

We read that this angel Gabriel appeared to him, squeezed, scared him and sent him home frightened. (The whole story written in Bukhari" volume 9, book 87, Hadith number 111).

In the Bible we have a totally different picture of the angel Gabriel who appeared to many people before Mohammed. Let us look at some examples:

Gabriel appeared to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 8:16-18),

“And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, ‘Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.’ So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face, but he touched me, and set me upright.”

Gabriel appeared to Zacharias the priest (Luke 1:13, 19),

“There appeared to him an angel of the Lord, and Zechariah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him. He said to him, ‘Do not be afraid, Zacharias... I am Gabriel that stand in the presence of God.’”

Gabriel appeared to Mary, the mother of Jesus (Luke 1:26-33),

“The angel Gabriel was sent from God to a virgin name Mary and said, ‘Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!’ But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High.’”

The Son of the Most High God became the Son of Man (Son of Mary) in order to give his life at the cross for the sinful world that, “All who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God.” (John 1:12)

Paul the apostle wrote these words years after Jesus had finished the work of salvation and said, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8).

So what kind of a message did this strange spirit who called himself Gabriel deliver to Mohammed? He said, “The Christians call Christ the son of Allah… Allah's curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the Truth!”(Sure 9:30).

Wait a minute guys ... Here in the Bible we see the Image of Angel Gabriel being that when he appeared to people he would tell them "fear not" ... And What did this so called "Angel" do ? It squeezed him, scared him, frightened him? Wait wait wait, whats all this about? Is this what Angels are like? If he saw an Angel should he not comfort him and tell him not to fear or worry? Is this the Character or Allah's Angel's?

When Gabriel appeared to Mary as we read before, he told her that Jesus “will be called the Son of the Most High.” (Luke 1:35) Now that same angel reveals himself to our new prophet and tells him that “Allah's curse be on them, those who call Christ the son of Allah.” It seems that either the angel Gabriel was getting old in age and now was cursing himself, or simply that the angel Gabriel did not make this visitation.

Was This Angel Gabriel ... Or Another Spirit? A Demon? A Fallen Angel Sent By Satan To Start A New World Deception?

The Bible tells us about some fallen angels who lost their positions in heaven because an act of rebellion against God. Here is the story according to the Bible,

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. (Isaiah 14:12-15)

Also in Ezekiel 28:13-17, it is written about that poor fallen angel who:

was in Eden, the garden of God. With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you, you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God.

That fallen angel wishes that someone would call him angel again, for he wants so badly to go back to his original position; but he cannot, for God had cast him down from heaven and changed his name to “Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him” (Revelation 12:9).

Satan Is A Liar, he is the Father of ALL Lies the Bible clearly tells us ... The Bible tells us that even if ANOTHER "Angel" Gives you another Gospel, let him be accursed. Jesus warned us, he knew Islam was coming, but despite this proof and information ... People want to ignore their creator? Keep reading i urge you ...

This Satan is a liar and the deceiver of the nations; he “has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:4). And, because Satan was an angel, he is able to change himself into that image; as it is written, “And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14).

Jesus Casted out Demons, they would Manifest wherever he went, for example like the man with the Legion of demons inside him, saw him from AFAR and WORSHIPPED him saying not to TORMENT us, wait a minute ... Who is this man which was Possessed by a Legion of Demons and could not be bound by chains and broke shackles and was un-tamable, but he comes and worships Jesus and asks him to not torment him? Jesus is God thats why.

Is the Muslem able to drive out an evil spirit in the name of Mohammed or the name of Allah? No. Why? Does Allah not have the power? Is he not God? Hmmm? Why did Jesus cast out demons and give the same POWER to his Disciples to do the same? Why Did Mohammed not do this or Allah give anybody the power?

If anybody here has experience with Exorcism, you'll notice Demons will not leave a person under the name of Mohammed, Allah, Mr. President or anybody, But JESUS. Thats because Jesus is Lord ... Every knee shall bow and every Tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!

Why can you not cast out Demons using Mohammed's name? Why not even with Allah's name? Why has never seen Allah if he is true and why is there a Mediator between Mohammed and Allah and he sent an "Angel" who calls himself Gabriel?

Jesus came and destroyed the power of that evil one. There is no record in the Koran that this angel Gabriel had taken the fear of Mohammed, or given him power over the demonic powers of this world. Only Jesus can set you free and bring you to the true way; for He is “the way, and the truth, and the life” (John 14:6). Listen to Him saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." (John 8:12)

Is this the Character of an Angel? Does he scare people and frighten them and not even comfort them? You people can certainly hang your destiny in lies, im going to put my Trust and Life into the hands of Jesus, he is my foundation.

Amen. Kind Regards,
Scorpz

[Scorpion]

After the visitation of the angel who claimed to be Gabriel, Mohammed became very afraid and attempted suicide. He walked up to the top of a mountain, where he intended to throw himself off a cliff. That experience followed him over the course of the next three years. Let us look together at what Bukhari wrote in volume 9, book 87, Hadith number 111, where he speaks about how the angel of God revealed himself to Mohammed. The truth is that this angel was a demon, for the Bible said, "No marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an Angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14).

One night when Mohammed was forty years old, he was alone in the cave of Hira when a spirit appeared to him at the door of the cave. The spirit grasped him and squeezed him until he thought he would die and commanded him, 'Read.' Muhammad answered, 'I cannot read.' The spirit squeezed him again and commanded 'Read.' Muhammad said, 'What shall I read?' The spirit said, 'Read: in the name of thy Lord.' Muhammad returned to his wife, frightened and told her 'O Khadija, what is wrong with me?'

If Mohammed had cried to the living God to save him, he would have saved himself and others, but he chose to live under the bondage of this demon which brought such fear in his life that he attempted several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains.

One question I have to ask is, "Is this the behaviour of a normal person?" We all may face troubles in this hard life, but to try to commit suicide means that the person has no hope in himself, from the people around him and even in God Himself. How could God speak to me through that person?!

Jesus is the answer for man's problems. All through the gospel we can read that Jesus delivered people from the power of Satan. Not only that, he has given that same power to His followers that they may be able "to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt them" (Luke 10:19). How then will the Moslem be able to protect himself from that devil who "came to steal, and to kill, and to destroy" (John 10:10) when their prophet himself (Mohammed) was not even able to? The only excuse Mohammed came up with to defend his strange behaviour - which is completely inexcusable - was that his Allah told him, "Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some [vanity] into his desire" (Sure 22:52).

=================== Conclusion =====================

You Have Been Deceived and Betrayed ... Humble Yourself And Give Your Life To Jesus

Kind Regards,
Scorpz.

[Bushmaster]

Volume 9, Book 87, Number 111:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous...up to..... ..that which he knew not." (96.15)

Wow! Indeed spooky... Why would an angel of God use force and not listen to what the person says?

[Matthew]

Galatians 1:8:

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

[Bushmaster]

Indeed. Hallelujah! That is one of my favorite verses. God made it clear that no other gospel is coming... No matter what!!! Muslims will respond to this in 2 ways, first the classic escape hatch: Bible has been tampered with, and that is that... The other one: Who is Paul to preach? yada yada yada...

[Alpha]

Muslims have no answer to this response whatsoever. They can't answer to the fact that Muhammed's revelation was secondary. God is not secondary. In everything, a fake imitation comes after the real thing. After the gospel was given, then you got these fake revelations like the ones from Islam, Mormons, Jahova Wtnesses, etc. Do not fear them. God makes His warnings beforehand clear!

[Scorpion]

Alpha: Your correct, i'd like to see them twist and hurdle their way around the facts on this one.

Fellow Muslims: Jesus loves you, he has given us his precious word and even warned us of this False Prophet and Satan disguising as an Angel of light ... Look ... Is an Angel one who Says "Fear Not" ... Or Is An Angel One who comes and squeezes you until the point of DEATH and FRIGHTENS you and SCARES you?

Angels Cannot Be Rough Like Demons ... Demons Cannot Be Peaceful Like Angels ... Its NOT Their character, they are Fallen Angels and although they can disguise into Angels of Light, they CANNOT Change their Character because these are Creatures from Hell.

You would be totally blind not to notice this. Why has no muslim responded to this topic with an answer yet? Jesus loves you and warned us all of this, he is our creator, Not Allah.

Give it up. Kind Regards,
Scorpz

[Lady Fatima]

Peace to all,

I was going to ignore this entire thread and let other Muslims answer it, but, no one seems to have come forward to answer it. So I guess I’ll entertain you all with my answers.

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

I could have sworn I’ve answered this. It must have been to Alpha. Ok listen up boys and girls. According to Islam, Jesus had told the Children of Israel that there was going to be another messenger to come after him whose name shall be Muhammad and that he would bring with him another revelation, as do all messengers of God. And since they already knew that the angel Gabriel assists all the messengers of God, it would have been easy for them to put this “prophecy” together. So you see, considering all the information they would have known, this is no biggie. It is not a prophecy at all for they already knew that such an event would take place.

Ok moving on...

The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous...up to..... ..that which he knew not." (96.15)

So what’s the big deal with the way the angel handled Muhammad? Yes, Muhammad was shaken up, not because the angel squeezed him, but because he did not know what it was. Don’t create something out of nothing. Ya Allah.

Muslims have no answer to this response whatsoever. They can't answer to the fact that Muhammed's revelation was secondary.

The revelation that was given to Muhammad was the last revelation. There would have been literally thousands that came before the Quran. We do not in anyway claim that the Quran was the first revelation.

Is an Angel one who Says "Fear Not" ... Or Is An Angel One who comes and squeezes you until the point of DEATH and FRIGHTENS you and SCARES you?

On the verge of death? You are such a drama queen Scorpion.

Angels Cannot Be Rough Like Demons ... Demons Cannot Be Peaceful Like Angels

So a demon is an angel, but a fallen angel? How can they be creatures from hell if they were once angels?

Its NOT Their character, they are Fallen Angels and although they can disguise into Angels of Light,

Impossible. God would never allow demons to disguise themselves as angels. Angels are angels and demons are demons, They are completely different.

Jesus loves you and warned us all of this, he is our creator, Not Allah.

Oh is that so? What about the father and the holy Ghost? Did they not creates us as well? Once again the 2 other Gods have been forgotten. Oh dear..

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

[Alpha]

I could have sworn I’ve answered this. It must have been to Alpha. Ok listen up boys and girls. According to Islam, Jesus had told the Children of Israel that there was going to be another messenger to come after him whose name shall be Muhammad and that he would bring with him another revelation, as do all messengers of God. And since they already knew that the angel Gabriel assists all the messengers of God, it would have been easy for them to put this “prophecy” together. So you see, considering all the information they would have known, this is no biggie. It is not a prophecy at all for they already knew that such an event would take place.

According to Christianity, which came first (may I add) Jesus never said Muhammed was going to come, and according to the gospels nowhere is Muhammed prophesied. I can start a new religion today and mix up scriptures from the Bible and say I was prophesied in it. If you are going to say the gospels are corrupted, then how would we know that Muhammed was really prophesied? If you are going to say the gospels are not corrupted, then you will know Muhammed was not prophesied. Either way, you lose.

The revelation that was given to Muhammad was the last revelation. There would have been literally thousands that came before the Quran. We do not in anyway claim that the Quran was the first revelation.

I don't think anyone who wants to know the truth will agree that Muhammed was given the final revelation. In the book of Revelation in the Bible, that's where everything ends. It makes that claim itself. The Book of Revelation involves the work of the gospel, but in an eschatological way. How then can the Qu'ran claim to be the final revelation, when the Revelation of the Bible claims to be the final revelation? Christianity was the first to talk about the Holy Spirit, the Anti-Christ and what shall happen in the last days. Then all of a sudden the Qu'ran does the samething, but changes a few things which was first revealed in Christianity. Now, I don't know what kind of a "God" works that way, but I sure know it is not the real God.

[Bushmaster]

According to Islam, Jesus had told the Children of Israel that there was going to be another messenger to come after him whose name shall be Muhammad and that he would bring with him another revelation, as do all messengers of God.

Fatima, this was only prophesied in the Gospel of Barnabas which was written in Italy during 16th century, in many ways it has been proven that this gospel was a fraud.

So what’s the big deal with the way the angel handled Muhammad? Yes, Muhammad was shaken up, not because the angel squeezed him, but because he did not know what it was. Don’t create something out of nothing. Ya Allah.

It is a very important issue according to the Bible but since you say you don't need to read the Bible, you will never be able to look from its point of view. We are not creating anything, all of this is IN THE BIBLE. Muhammad was not aware of 1 John 4:1-7, that was why this creature scared the hell out of him, he was intimidated, he was dominated, the creature bullied him around, this is an important fact! If I meet someone and I use force to bully him, for example in (any kind of) school, he will do anything for me...

The revelation that was given to Muhammad was the last revelation. There would have been literally thousands that came before the Quran. We do not in anyway claim that the Quran was the first revelation.

So what about Mormons or JWs? They say theirs is the last. I say read Galatians 1:6-10 again, there won't be no more gospels, it clearly states, no last, no first, period.

On the verge of death? You are such a drama queen Scorpion.

The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore.

What does "I could not bear it anymore" mean? No matter what it is, either death or terribly abused, THE ACTION is not out of LOVE, it is intimidation, it is a show of evil force...

Impossible. God would never allow demons to disguise themselves as angels. Angels are angels and demons are demons, They are completely different.

Kindly read 2 Corinthians 11:1-15

Oh is that so? What about the father and the holy Ghost? Did they not creates us as well? Once again the 2 other Gods have been forgotten.

Red herring, please stay with the topic, this topic is not about muslims' incomprehension of Trinity. You know muslim shoots himself in the foot when he says Christians believe in 3 gods, because throughout history Christians never believed in 3 gods, and koran teaches they did, so it is obvious who is at fault here. When muslim is confronted with this fact, he says no where in the koran allah tells that Christians believe in 3 gods, it may as well be 3 persons... Well then where did "you" get your 3 gods information? From the koran or from the hadith?

[Alexei]

Hi Alpha,

According to Christianity, which came first (may I add) Jesus never said Muhammed was going to come, and according to the gospels nowhere is Muhammed prophesied.

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. [John 20:17].

According to Christianity, which came first (may I add) Jesus said that he was going directly to the father, and never said that he's gonna make a U turn toward Paul!!!

Well this whole thread is valueless since you're judging the Islam and the Noble Qur'an according to the Holy Bible. You may give the Christian view of the issue, but you can't disprove The Noble Qur'an by using the Holy Bible, or disproving the Holy Bible by using the Noble Qur'an.
You just can't have 2 suspects and then make one of them the judge. It's just ridiculous and non sense.


Alexei

[Scorpion]

Lady Fatima:

1. Its very important you read through this topic again, as a friend ... would you please do that for me and take my advice, and with just a few minutes on your hand ... read carefully through the topic again, please?

Thank you.

2. Its very important you look at the characteristics ... Dont be stubborn right now and ignore these things where telling you, i dont get anything in advising you about this, for a start ... I used to be a Hindu, i was once ignorant like many people on this forum, but Jesus showed me the light and now i can see all religions and all information from a very amazing point of view, its easier to understand and i have the wisdom to search out the truth.

3. Yes ... It matters about wether an Angel Squeezed Muhammed or not ... ok? It matters, for your Soul's sake, it matters ... pay attention ...

First: Had the spirit been Gabriel, he would have calmed Muhammad and relieved his fear. But the spirit left him in extreme distress. Gabriel appeared to many people before his alleged visit to Muhammad and each time the first thing he did was to allay that person's fear. Gabriel appeared to the prophet Daniel. Daniel was afraid but Gabriel touched him, he did not squeeze him, he only touched him: And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, "Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision." So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face. . . but he touched me, and set me upright. . . (Daniel 8:16-18). Gabriel appeared to Zacharias, the father of John the Baptist, who is called Yihia in the Koran; he identified himself and said to Zacharias: Do not be afraid, Zacharias... I am Gabriel that stand in the presence of God (Luke 1:13, 19). Gabriel appeared to Mary, the mother of Jesus. Mary was greatly troubled but Gabriel said to her: Do not be afraid, Mary (Luke 1:30). But the spirit who squeezed Muhammad left him frightened and in great distress. Therefore the spirit could not have been the angel Gabriel.

4. The Characteristic of an Angel is to be Peaceful, this is why they are called Angel's, its called Common-Sense. No Angel would SQUEEZE somebody and scare them to death, Mohammed tried to commit suicide, please see my posts above for quotes. Now ... None of the people in the Bible after seeing Angel Gabriel tried committing suicide, so what made Mohammed do this?

Lady Fatima ... You guys have been deceived, i say this because its my responsiblity to show you the light ... Its common sense, Angels dont scare you and frighten you and HARM you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on man what does it take to figure this out?

5. The Bible was written A to Z, everything ... From Genesis to Revelation ... Beginning and the End, Jesus IS the Beginning and the End, there is no other after him ... So why is the Quran a mere cheap counterfeit of The Bible, and if this was a "continued" revelation why the need to re-write the Bible stories and change people's names and deceive everybody with some Dejjal thing?

For a start ... If the Quran is Inspired ... Allah could have atleast given you the Quran in Choronlogical order, i mean ... it would only take a few minutes right, so why isn't it in order even? Is Allah that busy?

The Quran contradicts itself ... In one instance it says that many was created from "a clot" which means "frozen blood," while in another it says that man was created from "clay." The fact is, man was created from the dust of the ground as the Bible states. Dr. William Campbell in his book, The Koran and The Bible, says on page 185:

As every reader who has studied human reproduction will realize, there is no state as a clot during formation a fetus, so this a very major scientific problem. Would the angel Gabriel make such a scientific error? Fifth: Had the spirit been Gabriel, he would have taught Mohammad to read and write. The Koran declares that Allah taught Jesus how to write.


For a Start ... Lots of people walk around claiming the ridiculous slogan "Quran is a miracle" ... Well wait a minute would you ... A book counterfeited from the Bible written in Arabic meaning approximately 800 million muslims cant read it and is unreadable by lots of the rest of the world, is supposed to be a miracle? No thanks ... I dont buy that. I wasn't born yesterday.

Look ... Its common sense guys ... If Allah existed, if he was really God, dont you think he would put a Quran before the Bible, why the need to change the Word? and Why go so Against the Bible even though its similar?

its Satan's work ... and like i requested from you Lady Fatima, if you take a measely 5 minutes out of your life and re-read my first and second post it may actually profit your Soul and shed some light on this situation.

The Bible makes it VERY clear about Satan being a Fallen Angel ... Satan's name in Heaven was Lucifer ... The Illuminati/Freemasons worship him today with the same name called Lucifer, the way Satan has deceived all these people is Satan claims to Freemasons that Adonai (Jesus) is the Evil one, and he is the Light ... Ok now listen to this ... the word Lucifer means ... "The LIGHT Bearer" ... Satan is Lucifer's other name. Lucifer was an Arch-Angel in Heaven, just like Gabriel ... There are different types of Angel's in Heaven ... ArchAngels, Cherubims etc.

But you see ... Satan has deceived MILLIONS of Freemasons/Illuminati Cult members ALREADY by simply claiming to them he is an Angel of Light and he is the LIGHt ... well hang on a minute, if you read the Bible you'd know that the Story goes ... Lucifer rebelled and other's joined him, and 1/3 were kicked out with him, and 2/3 of Angel's stayed in Heaven with God ... These Fallen Angels later became Demons and Lucifer became Satan. Hell has been made for Satan and his Fallen Angels, it has not been made for mankind, it is a place of weeping and knashing of teeth, because people will regret that they rejected Jesus.

Please, i urge you ... think before you speak and read this thread, theres no rush to reply, please, re-read this thread and think about this information with a neutral mind and open heart. Im praying for You.

God Bless you Alexei and Lady Fatima.

[Scorpion]

This should help a bit more ...

‘They considered him to be a disturbed man and called him ‘madjnun’ (‘a possessed one’) who behaved very unnaturally when he received his revelations (Suras ‘The Rangers 37.35, Smoke 44.13, The Mount 52.29, The Pen 68.2, The Darkening 81.22). Some of his neighbours feared him and whispered that he was a ‘sahir’ (magician) dealing with witchcraft and influencing people to follow him by his fascinating lies (Suras Jonah 10.2, El-Hijr 15.16, Sad 38.3).’

Both the Bukhari and Muslim Hadiths describe what happened to Muhammad when inspiration came upon him. He heard ringing in his ears, fell to the ground, turned red, sweated profusely, made moaning sounds, spit ran from his mouth, etc. While ancient pagans placed a great deal of importance on such things, they were never a part of the Biblical prophets.

Foaming is described in a demon Possessed man in the book of Matthew. Joseph Smith ... The Founder of the Mormon faith which is full of Secret Cult's and Freemason connections claims to be a Final Revelations like Islam does too ... A common way to know of a Cult is if the entire Faith is founded upon one 1 Man's claims, I.e. ... Mohammed and Islam, Mormonism and Joseph Smith, David Koresh, Guru Nanak etc etc. Islam is not the only boat in the Sea claiming to be the Final Revelation.

He believed in magic, the evil eye, amulets, omens, spells, etc. He was superstitious about many things and made up weird rules about bathroom duties (Bukhari vol. 1, no. 144; vol. IV, nos. 110, 111; vol. VII, nos. 636, 648, 649, 650; Muslim vol. I, no. 458; vol. III, 3 nos. 5424, 5427). He was afraid whenever a strong wind blew (Bukhari vol. II, no. 144) and of eclipses (Bukhari vol. II, no. 167).

While this is bad enough, the Hadith tells us that Muhammad was at times under magical spells, i.e., bewitched, and told lies and did things while under those spells. (Bukhari vol. IV, nos. 400, 490; VII, no. 660; Muslim vol. III, no. 5428) Once it is admitted that he told lies and did things while under satanic influence, then the entire Qur'an could be satanic in origin.


Witchcraft, Magic, Spells, Omens???? What on earth is all this about people? Hmmmm?

Think about this during your sleep, make sure your eternal destiny doesn't hang on Islam, you'll regret it. Take some time out of your lives and re-think things over if you really want to know the truth.

"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free"

[Scorpion]

He was guilty of false prophecies.
1 - The 100 yr. Prophecy. (Bukhari vol. I, no. 539)
2. The end of the world predictions. (Bukhari vol. IV, no.401)

Whats all this about?

[Alexei]

Hi Scorp,

I've already expressed my opinion that this thread is useless since it uses a suspect as a judge. However I need to clarify some points:

Lady Fatima ... You guys have been deceived, i say this because its my responsiblity to show you the light ...

Lady Fatima and the guys and I want to thank you very much for your efforts to show us the light. We really appreciate! But show us some rational reasons please!

The Bible was written A to Z, everything ... From Genesis to Revelation ... Beginning and the End, Jesus IS the Beginning and the End, there is no other after him ... So why is the Quran a mere cheap counterfeit of The Bible, and if this was a "continued" revelation why the need to re-write the Bible stories and change people's names and deceive everybody with some Dejjal thing?

This was discussed many times on how the Noble Qur'an didn't copy the Bible.

For a start ... If the Quran is Inspired ... Allah could have atleast given you the Quran in Choronlogical order, i mean ... it would only take a few minutes right, so why isn't it in order even? Is Allah that busy?

The Noble Qur'an has an order based on subjects:
1- Legislation
2- Prophets' stories
3- Day of Judgment

The Quran contradicts itself ... In one instance it says that many was created from "a clot" which means "frozen blood," while in another it says that man was created from "clay." The fact is, man was created from the dust of the ground as the Bible states. Dr. William Campbell in his book, The Koran and The Bible, says on page 185:

As every reader who has studied human reproduction will realize, there is no state as a clot during formation a fetus, so this a very major scientific problem. Would the angel Gabriel make such a scientific error? Fifth: Had the spirit been Gabriel, he would have taught Mohammad to read and write. The Koran declares that Allah taught Jesus how to write

This was discussed in an independant thread!

And it's not a clot in fetus, rather a leech.
refer to this site:
http://www.beconvinced.com/science/QURANEMBROY.htm

For a Start ... Lots of people walk around claiming the ridiculous slogan "Quran is a miracle" ... Well wait a minute would you ... A book counterfeited from the Bible written in Arabic meaning approximately 800 million muslims cant read it and is unreadable by lots of the rest of the world, is supposed to be a miracle? No thanks ... I dont buy that. I wasn't born yesterday.

Well try to refute the miraculous term of the Noble Qur'an.
And no one is forcing to buy that.

Look ... Its common sense guys ... If Allah existed, if he was really God, dont you think he would put a Quran before the Bible, why the need to change the Word? and Why go so Against the Bible even though its similar?

The previous Scriptures were meant for a limited period for a group of humans who were limited in knowledge. That is why they were not protected from corruption, they were a stepping stone for the more advanced timeless Revelation.

its Satan's work

Is this your way to show us the light?

But you see ... Satan has deceived MILLIONS of Freemasons/Illuminati Cult members ALREADY by simply claiming to them he is an Angel of Light and he is the LIGHt ... well hang on a minute, if you read the Bible you'd know that the Story goes ... Lucifer rebelled and other's joined him, and 1/3 were kicked out with him, and 2/3 of Angel's stayed in Heaven with God ... These Fallen Angels later became Demons and Lucifer became Satan. Hell has been made for Satan and his Fallen Angels, it has not been made for mankind, it is a place of weeping and knashing of teeth, because people will regret that they rejected Jesus.

The only one that I see as deceived is you. May God Almighty open your heart so you may see the Light of Islam and the Noble Qur'an

Thank you
Alexei

[Bushmaster]

Is this your way to show us the light?

He has a very legit point here, let's not get fanatic, even though muslims are wrong, even if it is satan's work, if we insult, degrade or disrespect, they will stick to it tighter... I came to Christ from islam because my brothers showed me love, they didn't try to cram it down my throat. I am apologizing for not considering this in the past, I will try not to do it anymore... And thanks Alexei for reminding...

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Bushmaster,

Fatima, this was only prophesied in the Gospel of Barnabas which was written in Italy during 16th century, in many ways it has been proven that this gospel was a fraud.

No one is speaking about the Gospel of Barnabas. Have you ever actually seen me referring to that gospel before?

It is a very important issue according to the Bible but since you say you don't need to read the Bible, you will never be able to look from its point of view.

This is completely unfair. I have read portions of the Bible. That is better than most Christians and what they read of the Quran.

We are not creating anything, all of this is IN THE BIBLE. Muhammad was not aware of 1 John 4:1-7, that was why this creature scared the hell out of him, he was intimidated, he was dominated, the creature bullied him around, this is an important fact!

Yes Muhammad was not aware that Gabriel was an angel and that is why he was afraid. Even when Gabriel told him that he was a messenger from God, Muhammad was still afraid. He had never witnessed such an event before. After Muhammad was comforted by his wife, and reassured by her cousin, he was fine.

Too much attention is being given to Muhammad’s first meeting with Gabriel. Muhammad was not hurt nor did he have any bruising. Perhaps you should read Gabriel and his other contact with Muhammad.

If I meet someone and I use force to bully him, for example in (any kind of) school, he will do anything for me...

So Gabriel is a bully now, and poor Muhammad was forced into this? Please be realistic?

So what about Mormons or JWs? They say theirs is the last. I say read Galatians 1:6-10 again, there won't be no more gospels, it clearly states, no last, no first, period.

Well the difference between them and us is that we say that the message that is given in the Quran is the same message that was given to all the prophets before Muhammad. They taught the same religion: Islam (submission to God).

What does "I could not bear it anymore" mean? No matter what it is, either death or terribly abused, THE ACTION is not out of LOVE, it is intimidation, it is a show of evil force...

Ok let’s go with that. Show me from the hadiths where Muhammad was in great distress. Perhaps broken ribs?

You know muslim shoots himself in the foot when he says Christians believe in 3 gods, because throughout history Christians never believed in 3 gods, and koran teaches they did, so it is obvious who is at fault here.

Whose at fault? Christians ofcourse. It’s like when you see some Muslims and they pray to the dead, and then when you advice them that this associating partners with God, they’ll tell you that’s not the case. You see, we refer to this as denial. You, my friend, are in denial.

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

[Scorpion]

Peace Lady Fatima:

1. Where not living in Denial, your dodging the issue about Mohammed and his visitation ... Does it not tell you anything about the so called "angel"? He Squeezed Mohammed, what for? Why did the Angel Frighten Mohammed to Death so that Mohammed wanted to Commit suicide?

No matter what you say ... it wont change a thing. So what if her wife comforted him? So what? What does that prove? Do you not look at why the Angel made him Fearful? Angels are supposed to be Angelic not Satanic my friend, you have clearly been blinded. If a person see's an Angel they would tell them to be peaceful like in the Bible, not Squeeze them and frighten them to the point that they want to commit suicide.

Angels Do NOT Do This! Period. Im not a drama queen either for your information, im quite intellectual and have the ability to think for myself. Did you read my first and second post carefully again and think about what i told you yesterday?

For One ... Why Did Mohammed beleive in Magic, Omens, Spells and was be-witched is well? Why was he first of all involved in Witchcraft type stuff?

And Why Did "Allah" wait 600 years after the Bible was written and then pop Mohammed onto the world scene claiming he is the greatest prophet even though he never Authenticated his prophethood and never produced a single miracle? Why? Whats so good about him? What moral teachings did he have that were superior to Jesus's teachings and law's?

Why Did Allah wait that long to make things suspicious? Why did he not give Mohammed the Quran from the Beginning?

Jesus said on the cross "It Is FINISHED" ... He didn't say its kinda finished, he said its finished, that means its complete. Nobody after him. He is the Beginning and the End. So Who was Mohammed to Pop onto the world scene after Jesus said its finished?

And also ... Why has nobody seen Allah himself? Not because he's too holy or anything, God showed himself Face-2-Face to Moses and all the other people, God didn't hide anything, so why has Allah not shown himself to people if he is real and why did Mohammed not give anybody the power to Cast out Demons?

Why dont you guys sit down, do some thinking like an Intellectual people. I was under the impression that when people grow older and get an education they begin to ask questions about life and God and authenticate things for themselves like Wise people to make sure they know where they're eternal Destiny hangs.

Mines hangs on Jesus, THE Truth, where does yours hang? On a figment of your imagination who has never shown himself or a real God who gave his Only Begotten Son as an Atonement for the worlds sins and healing and defeated Death and Hades to show us he holds the Key to Eternal Life and can offer us this gift for Free?

Choice is yours.
Kind Regards,
Scorpz.

[Alpha]

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. [John 20:17].

According to Christianity, which came first (may I add) Jesus said that he was going directly to the father, and never said that he's gonna make a U turn toward Paul!!!

If I tell my parents I'm going on a vacation, do I have to let other people know that the day I told them I was going on a vacation was the same day I said I was going to call them on the telephone during my vavaction? If I tell my parents I'm going on vacation, and while I'm on vacation I decide to call them, there is nothing wrong with this. We don't know if Jesus said he was going to meet Paul in a vision. This is not the point however. The point of that passage is He had conquered death and wanted His desciples to know. Also, you have to realize, that eventhough Jesus told Mary to tell His desciples he was going to the Father, Jesus appeared to His desciples despite Mary telling them anyway. But Jesus never told Mary that He was going to make a pit stop to His desciples. Therefore, Jesus never has to say He is going to meet Paul.

Well this whole thread is valueless since you're judging the Islam and the Noble Qur'an according to the Holy Bible. You may give the Christian view of the issue, but you can't disprove The Noble Qur'an by using the Holy Bible, or disproving the Holy Bible by using the Noble Qur'an.
You just can't have 2 suspects and then make one of them the judge. It's just ridiculous and non sense.

We are not judging the Qu'ran by the Holy Bible. We are using common sense which God gives us on His revelations. Something that is divinely inspired would be revealed first. It would not be revealed after a "false" revelation. A false imitation of the real thing always comes after the real thing, in this case 600 years after.

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Scorpion,

Where not living in Denial, your dodging the issue about Mohammed and his visitation ... Does it not tell you anything about the so called "angel"? He Squeezed Mohammed, what for? Why did the Angel Frighten Mohammed to Death so that Mohammed wanted to Commit suicide?

Perhaps it would be better for you to actually read the Sirah instead of pretending to know what you’re talking about. Mohammad wasn’t afraid of Gabriel because he squeezed him. Mohammad at this time did not know what Gabriel was, and this is what he was afraid of. When Muhammad saw Gabriel on the horizon, and he saw how big and mighty he was, this is what he was afraid of. Muhammad wanted to commit suicide when he saw Gabriel on the horizon. Gabriel at this time told him who he was, and this calmed him to a point.

If a person see's an Angel they would tell them to be peaceful like in the Bible, not Squeeze them and frighten them to the point that they want to commit suicide.

As human beings we would be frightened. You have been watching way to much “touch by an angel”. Seeing an angel, that big, on the horizon will freak you out. Anything out of this world will freak me out. But then again, once the calmness sets in, everything will be fine. But initially, you will be afraid. This is only natural.

Im not a drama queen either for your information,

Sorry Kiddo. I was kidding.

im quite intellectual and have the ability to think for myself.

Wow so defensive

For One ... Why Did Mohammed beleive in Magic, Omens, Spells and was be-witched is well? Why was he first of all involved in Witchcraft type stuff?

Muhammad didn’t do witchcraft. This is forbidden in Islam. However, this sort of stuff exists. I know that from experience.

And Why Did "Allah" wait 600 years after the Bible was written and then pop Mohammed onto the world scene claiming he is the greatest prophet even though he never Authenticated his prophethood and never produced a single miracle?

Muhammad did many miracles.

The reason that God waited 600 years is up to Him.

Why? Whats so good about him? What moral teachings did he have that were superior to Jesus's teachings and law's?

Hey, relax. Don’t get all hyped up man. We love Jesus, he is a great prophet. He taught great things. No one is doubting that. But Islamic laws are much superior as compared to the laws in the Bible.

Why Did Allah wait that long to make things suspicious? Why did he not give Mohammed the Quran from the Beginning?

Thousands of messengers came before Mohammad. All of them had their own scriptures which was meant for their own people. Mohammad came to all of mankind, and was given the Quran, the final revelation. This is how God decreed things would be done and thus we do not question it.

Jesus said on the cross "It Is FINISHED" ... He didn't say its kinda finished, he said its finished, that means its complete. Nobody after him.

We do not believe in the crucifixion.

He is the Beginning and the End.

Look Scorpion, God does not have a beginning and He does not have an end. Hence, Jesus cannot be God.

And also ... Why has nobody seen Allah himself? Not because he's too holy or anything, God showed himself Face-2-Face to Moses and all the other people, God didn't hide anything, so why has Allah not shown himself to people if he is real

God is too holy for you to see Him “face to face”. We are not atheists. We do not need to see God to believe in Him.

Why did Mohammed not give anybody the power to cast out Demons?

The power comes from God. Mohammad could drive out demons, his companions could do it, and the pious and religious people can do it.

I remember when I was 10 years old, and we had an auntie who was possessed by a demon or we call them jinn, and when ever she talked, she would speak in Albanian. We didn’t know it at that time, but the near by sheikh, was Albanian and he could understand her. My auntie was not Albanian, but the demon that had possessed her was. So they read Quran over her, and the demon left. Now she is well.

Mines hangs on Jesus, THE Truth, where does yours hang?

Mine hangs with God. You go with Jesus and see how far he gets you, and I’ll go with God and see how far He gets me. Good luck on your trip man.

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

[Alexei]

Hi Alpha

If I tell my parents I'm going on a vacation, do I have to let other people know that the day I told them I was going on a vacation was the same day I said I was going to call them on the telephone during my vavaction? If I tell my parents I'm going on vacation, and while I'm on vacation I decide to call them, there is nothing wrong with this. We don't know if Jesus said he was going to meet Paul in a vision. This is not the point however. The point of that passage is He had conquered death and wanted His desciples to know. Also, you have to realize, that eventhough Jesus told Mary to tell His desciples he was going to the Father, Jesus appeared to His desciples despite Mary telling them anyway. But Jesus never told Mary that He was going to make a pit stop to His desciples. Therefore, Jesus never has to say He is going to meet Paul.

Alpha, we are not talking about vacation, but SALVATION.

Jesus throughout his ministry made numerous predictions and foretold just about everything. Jesus says I am going Straight to God. Where does it say he is making a detour to 'Paul'? Every action is told to the Disciples, why not tell them of his return to 'Paul'? Jesus told them where he was from and where he was going All the time, why leave out a Major event like going to 'Paul' who wrote about 70% of the Gospel. Jesus did predict returning but Not to 'Paul'
"But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." [Matthew 26:29].
Why then return to Paul if Jesus himself predicted he will Not drink again until he is with his Original disciples in Heaven.
Jesus says he will Re-Appear to escort some back to Heaven, but did not do that when he appeared to 'Paul'. Jesus often predicted coming back but Only on Judgement Day.
Don't you think a event that effected 70% of the current Gospel would be foretold? Everything Jesus was going to do was foretold (going to Heaven and back) but not Jesus returning from Heaven to exclusively speak to 'Paul'.

We are not judging the Qu'ran by the Holy Bible. We are using common sense which God gives us on His revelations. Something that is divinely inspired would be revealed first. It would not be revealed after a "false" revelation. A false imitation of the real thing always comes after the real thing, in this case 600 years after.

The previous Scriptures were meant for a limited period for a group of humans who were limited in knowledge. That is why they were not protected from corruption, they were a stepping stone for the more advanced timeless Revelation.



Hi Scorp

Why Did Allah wait that long to make things suspicious? Why did he not give Mohammed the Quran from the Beginning?

And why did God wait all these thousands and thousands of years to send "his only son" to be crucified and save humanity? Why didn't God sent him as soon as Adam and Eve committ the alleged Original Sin?
And why did Jesus wait 3 years until the alleged claim was given so that the Gospel should be preached to all nations?

And also ... Why has nobody seen Allah himself? Not because he's too holy or anything, God showed himself Face-2-Face to Moses and all the other people, God didn't hide anything, so why has Allah not shown himself to people if he is real

Moses didn't see God Face 2 Face, but he had a WWF match with him all night. Do you know who were the referee? Was Undertaker or Kane or The Rock or Hulk Hogan there?
And God show himself as a tree in Exodus, so why don't you search for this tree and worship it?
Humans have limited resources and can't see God!
Can't you believe without seeing Scorp?

Jesus said on the cross "It Is FINISHED" ... He didn't say its kinda finished, he said its finished, that means its complete. Nobody after him.

I myself prefer quoting Luke:
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. [Luke 23:46]
No FINISH here

Thx
Alexei

[Bushmaster]

No one is speaking about the Gospel of Barnabas. Have you ever actually seen me referring to that gospel before?[.quote]

What I said was the information you provided is no where but in a fraud document. I think you can understand what I meant, noone said you are referring to it, because you didn't refer to anything as you do most of the time when it comes to Christianity...

This is completely unfair. I have read portions of the Bible. That is better than most Christians and what they read of the Quran.

What portions are those? Didn't you say you don't need to read the Bible? Yes you did. Your assertion here has no bearing on Christians either, because you don't know who is reading the Bible or not, so you can't know what is better on your part or not.

Yes Muhammad was not aware that Gabriel was an angel and that is why he was afraid. Even when Gabriel told him that he was a messenger from God, Muhammad was still afraid. He had never witnessed such an event before. After Muhammad was comforted by his wife, and reassured by her cousin, he was fine.

Too much attention is being given to Muhammad’s first meeting with Gabriel. Muhammad was not hurt nor did he have any bruising. Perhaps you should read Gabriel and his other contact with Muhammad.

Tell me if muhammad was aware of 1 John 4:1-6... Was he? Are you aware of what it says there? Scorp gave you several examples of Gabriel's appearances, can't you see the difference? Too much attention is being given to this first meeting of course because it is how it all started. He was hurt alright, he was mentally and physically abused, why did he attempt suicide for several times? Why didn't he go home and give the good news to his people instead of running home and hiding under the blanket?

So Gabriel is a bully now, and poor Muhammad was forced into this? Please be realistic?

Who said Gabriel is a bully? First of all, Gabriel was not there... Yes muhammad was intimidated into doing this...

Well the difference between them and us is that we say that the message that is given in the Quran is the same message that was given to all the prophets before Muhammad. They taught the same religion: Islam (submission to God).

You say this and they say that... Proof to this? muhammad's own words... Prove me that Moses taught islam... Isn't that a bit hard to change and corrupt all what God taught and revealed for thousands of years? Very big conspiracy theory... but it is only a theory...

Ok let’s go with that. Show me from the hadiths where Muhammad was in great distress. Perhaps broken ribs?

Distress doesn't necessarily mean physical abuse... We don't know if he was terribly bruised or not, do you? Mental abuse is the issue at hand here, explain why muhammad gone "mad" and wanted to kill himself...

Whose at fault? Christians ofcourse. It’s like when you see some Muslims and they pray to the dead, and then when you advice them that this associating partners with God, they’ll tell you that’s not the case. You see, we refer to this as denial. You, my friend, are in denial.

Not one word in this paragraph addresses the issue I brought up, you are a good dodger...

[Scorpion]

Alexei:

John 19:30 - "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Jesus Finished Everything On The Cross. Everything. Mohammed Has Just Been Deceived Just Like The Mormons, David Koresh and All the others who claim they have the "last revelation" ... Read up about Cults, Islam doesn't vary much from other Cults that make the same claims.

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Bushmaster,

What I said was the information you provided is no where but in a fraud document.

What information is that? What fraud document?

What portions are those?

The portions that I choose to read.

Didn't you say you do not need to read the Bible?

I don’t need to read them. Right now I’m struggling to read Romans.

I don’t read the Bible for guidance, but just to understand Christians. It was suggested to me to read it for guidance, and I rejected it. Simple as that.

Your assertion here has no bearing on Christians either, because you don't know who is reading the Bible or not, so you can't know what is better on your part or not.

Huh?

Tell me if muhammad was aware of 1 John 4:1-6... Was he? Are you aware of what it says there?

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

And the point to this is? Muhammad acknowledged Jesus Christ, not as the son of God, but as a messenger and the messiah.

He was hurt alright, he was mentally and physically abused

I can admit that mentally he was shaken up, and that would be natural. But if he was physically hurt, there would have been signs of this “abuse”. There should have been broken ribs or at least bruising. Did Muhammad limp back home? There was absolutely no sign of physical abuse, non-what so ever.

why did he attempt suicide for several times?

Because he did not understand what was happening to him. Even when Gabriel introduced himself, he was still afraid. This was something out of this world. An angel, and not just your ordinary angel, but Gabriel. Everywhere he looked, all he could see was Gabriel. It scared him to death. He was a man, and he reacted as a man.

Why didn't he go home and give the good news to his people instead of running home and hiding under the blanket?

He did not grasp it all.

Who said Gabriel is a bully?

You implied it.

First of all, Gabriel was not there

Ok.

Yes Muhammad was intimidated into doing this...

Ok.

Prove me that Moses taught islam...

To prove that, would be to prove that the Torah got corrupted. And this a whole entire new topic.

Isn't that a bit hard to change and corrupt all what God taught and revealed for thousands of years?

This has already been answered. Pay close attention next time.

Not one word in this paragraph addresses the issue I brought up, you are a good dodger...

Oh shucks. Thanks Bushmaster.

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

[Light]

I don’t need to read them. Right now I’m struggling to read Romans.

Lady Fatima - Tell me, is it the language and content that you are struggling with?

Which translation is it that you are reading?

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Light,

Lady Fatima - Tell me, is it the language and content that you are struggling with? Which translation is it that you are reading?

No I'm just trying to find some extra time to read it. The language is fine. I'm using the NIV.

[Alpha]

Alpha, we are not talking about vacation, but SALVATION.

Jesus throughout his ministry made numerous predictions and foretold just about everything. Jesus says I am going Straight to God. Where does it say he is making a detour to 'Paul'? Every action is told to the Disciples, why not tell them of his return to 'Paul'? Jesus told them where he was from and where he was going All the time, why leave out a Major event like going to 'Paul' who wrote about 70% of the Gospel. Jesus did predict returning but Not to 'Paul'
"But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." [Matthew 26:29].
Why then return to Paul if Jesus himself predicted he will Not drink again until he is with his Original disciples in Heaven.
Jesus says he will Re-Appear to escort some back to Heaven, but did not do that when he appeared to 'Paul'. Jesus often predicted coming back but Only on Judgement Day.
Don't you think a event that effected 70% of the current Gospel would be foretold? Everything Jesus was going to do was foretold (going to Heaven and back) but not Jesus returning from Heaven to exclusively speak to 'Paul'.

When Jesus met Paul, it was in a vision. Christ did not leave Heaven to meet Paul physically as you are implying here. Paul was persecuting the Church and on the road to Damascus, Paul saw Christ in a vision and was converted. Paul's mission was to preach to the Gentiles, whom Jesus said the gospel would be preached to. Jesus says He will have many desciples and Paul was one of them. I don't even know why I have to prove Paul to you. Atleast Paul knew the desciples of Jesus. Muhammed came 600 years later for crying out loud.

The previous Scriptures were meant for a limited period for a group of humans who were limited in knowledge. That is why they were not protected from corruption, they were a stepping stone for the more advanced timeless Revelation.

You have no proof that the gospels were meant for a limited period of time for certain people. The scriptures we have now are the only ones we can go by. And the scriptures in the Holy Bible claim to be the final revelation of God. The first scripture to make a claim like that is the Word of God, because the Word of God comes first, then the fase revelations come.

[Alexei]

Hi Alpha

When Jesus met Paul, it was in a vision. Christ did not leave Heaven to meet Paul physically as you are implying here. Paul was persecuting the Church and on the road to Damascus, Paul saw Christ in a vision and was converted. Paul's mission was to preach to the Gentiles, whom Jesus said the gospel would be preached to. Jesus says He will have many desciples and Paul was one of them. I don't even know why I have to prove Paul to you. Atleast Paul knew the desciples of Jesus. Muhammed came 600 years later for crying out loud.

You do not have to prove Paul to me, all I am asking is where did Jesus said that he going to make a U turn toward Paul? Surely the son of God would have tell his disciples and Christians about the most imporatnt personality in Christianity (Saul of Tarsus) since Paul wrote about 70% of the New Testament! Did Jesus fail to predict Paul, or was Paul just an impostor who saw that destroying the message of Jesus from inside is much much effective than destroying it from outside?

You have no proof that the gospels were meant for a limited period of time for certain people. The scriptures we have now are the only ones we can go by. And the scriptures in the Holy Bible claim to be the final revelation of God. The first scripture to make a claim like that is the Word of God, because the Word of God comes first, then the fase revelations come.

Just want to ask:
What about the ancient nations that came before Christians and Jews? Didn't God sent them a messenger and a revelation?
If yes, then according to your logic, the Bible is a hoax.
If no, then God is unjust to you when He left whole nations without any messenger and revelation?

Thx
Alexei

[Bushmaster]

A question at this point; raised by an atheist...

Scorp, Alpha, Omega...

Didn't Angels of God also strike people dead in the Bible? How about god himself visiting all that suffering on Job?

Meaning, Gabriel's abuse doesn't matter a bit, because God's angels have done this before...

What is your take?

[Bushmaster]

What information is that? What fraud document?

Boring, read the previous page...

The portions that I choose to read.

Sometimes I do the same thing...

I don’t need to read them. Right now I’m struggling to read Romans.

I don’t read the Bible for guidance, but just to understand Christians. It was suggested to me to read it for guidance, and I rejected it. Simple as that.

Why do you need to read Romans? Go read Isaac Asimov's "I, Robot" why Bible? Christians don't read the Bible for guidance all the time, you can't look at our way from the islamic point of view...

Huh?

Pay close attention next time.

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

And the point to this is? Muhammad acknowledged Jesus Christ, not as the son of God, but as a messenger and the messiah.

No point my friend, just forget it. It is not about muhammad acknowledging Christ, like I said don't waste your time reading the Bible.

I can admit that mentally he was shaken up, and that would be natural. But if he was physically hurt, there would have been signs of this “abuse”. There should have been broken ribs or at least bruising. Did Muhammad limp back home? There was absolutely no sign of physical abuse, non-what so ever.

And how do you know that? Did you your own pysical examination? Is there a certain rule that when Gabriel handles a man, there should be a broken rib? Too much for the islamic point of view... Keep this make believe attitude. You need to be mentally hurt to understand what was going on there and how it would affect the future, unfortunately some people just talk the talk while others walk the walk...

Because he did not understand what was happening to him. Even when Gabriel introduced himself, he was still afraid. This was something out of this world. An angel, and not just your ordinary angel, but Gabriel. Everywhere he looked, all he could see was Gabriel. It scared him to death. He was a man, and he reacted as a man.

Read the OP again, how Gabriel introduced himself to others, especially Mary. All others were men too, but the angel they came in contact with was the real Gabriel, not the generic one.

Why didn't he go home and give the good news to his people instead of running home and hiding under the blanket?

He did not grasp it all.

What was it he didn't grasp? He didn't grasp what was happening to Him? Why did He doubt it was Gabriel? Read 1 John 4:1-7 again my friend...

You implied it.

I said it was not Gabriel who visited muhammad. And the question was "Is Gabriel a bully?" No He is not. Did this "angel" bully muhammad? Yes he did. Simple...

To prove that, would be to prove that the Torah got corrupted. And this a whole entire new topic.

I have time, start a new topic, no dodging please...

This has already been answered. Pay close attention next time.

I told you that you were a good dodger...

[Alpha]

You do not have to prove Paul to me, all I am asking is where did Jesus said that he going to make a U turn toward Paul? Surely the son of God would have tell his disciples and Christians about the most imporatnt personality in Christianity (Saul of Tarsus) since Paul wrote about 70% of the New Testament! Did Jesus fail to predict Paul, or was Paul just an impostor who saw that destroying the message of Jesus from inside is much much effective than destroying it from outside?

"If I use your logic" then why does not the Qu'ran mention "Saul of Tarsus" since you Muslims claim he is a false teacher? If Saul is such a major problem, why does Muhammed not even mention his name? I mean, Muhammed did come hundreds of years AFTER Saul and did not even mention his name. If a man who claims to be a prophet can't even remember the past, how then can he prophesy the future?

Just want to ask:
What about the ancient nations that came before Christians and Jews? Didn't God sent them a messenger and a revelation?
If yes, then according to your logic, the Bible is a hoax.
If no, then God is unjust to you when He left whole nations without any messenger and revelation?

What are you talking about? First came the generation of Adam and Eve. Then came the generation of Noah (post flood era). Then came the Jews. Jews performed rituals in which symbolized the coming of the Messiah. Then came the prophecies of the Messiah, then came the Messiah. Nowhere in this chain is their a mention of Muhammed's revelation. God does not work backwards and God does not edit. God prophesied in Genesis that He would raise someone that would bruise the head of the serpant. That's how far Christianity can go back. The farthest that Islam can go back is 600 years after Christ left this earth.

[Alexei]

Hi Alpha

"If I use your logic" then why does not the Qu'ran mention "Saul of Tarsus" since you Muslims claim he is a false teacher? If Saul is such a major problem, why does Muhammed not even mention his name? I mean, Muhammed did come hundreds of years AFTER Saul and did not even mention his name. If a man who claims to be a prophet can't even remember the past, how then can he prophesy the future?

Well we are not talking about the Noble Qur'an, we're talking why didn't Jesus tell the disciples about Paul? Why didn't Jesus said to the disciples that a guy would come and will deliver 70% of my message?
Did Jesus fail to predict the future of his message, or Paul was just an impostor?

What are you talking about? First came the generation of Adam and Eve. Then came the generation of Noah (post flood era). Then came the Jews. Jews performed rituals in which symbolized the coming of the Messiah. Then came the prophecies of the Messiah, then came the Messiah. Nowhere in this chain is their a mention of Muhammed's revelation. God does not work backwards and God does not edit. God prophesied in Genesis that He would raise someone that would bruise the head of the serpant. That's how far Christianity can go back. The farthest that Islam can go back is 600 years after Christ left this earth

With such answer, no wonder why the great number of atheists are in the Christian societies!! May God Almighty cure you from your square brain!!!

Alexei

[Alpha]

Well we are not talking about the Noble Qur'an, we're talking why didn't Jesus tell the disciples about Paul? Why didn't Jesus said to the disciples that a guy would come and will deliver 70% of my message?
Did Jesus fail to predict the future of his message, or Paul was just an impostor?

Why are you repeating yourself? Again, more evidence of who initially starts to go around in circles. I gave you a legitimate response according to your logic and you were not able to respond to it.

With such answer, no wonder why the great number of atheists are in the Christian societies!! May God Almighty cure you from your square brain!!!

Typical. When there is no other reasonable response to say, they bring out the bashing.

[Alexei]

Why are you repeating yourself? Again, more evidence of who initially starts to go around in circles. I gave you a legitimate response according to your logic and you were not able to respond to it.

Cos you didn't answer my question sweetheart! Where did Jesus said that his message is... To Be Continued?
Having no answer, you're just escaping forward and put the blame on the Noble Qur'an.
However Paul is included among those impostors who have twisted the Scriptures:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. [The Noble Qur'an 2:79].

Typical. When there is no other reasonable response to say, they bring out the bashing.

For example, what about the generations that lived far away long b4 the Jews in the New World (America) (The Jews are named according to Judah, b4 Judah there was nothing called Jews). What about the native people of Australia? etc... Did God left them without a messenger or a revelation? Just take a look at what I posted and then look at your previous stone aged answer. May God Almighty cure you from your square brain sweetheart!!!

Alexei

[Scorpion]

Hi brother Alexei,

What questions do you have about Paul that you would like to know?
My dad will know the answer to all your questions, hes gone out right now and will be back shortly. Type up any questions you have about him and i'll post the answers soon

Thanks, God Bless!

[Alpha]

I'll let "Scorpion" answer Alexei's question and "finish him" off. (When I was a pagan I played Mortal Kombat--sue me).

Cos you didn't answer my question sweetheart! Where did Jesus said that his message is... To Be Continued?
Having no answer, you're just escaping forward and put the blame on the Noble Qur'an.
However Paul is included among those impostors who have twisted the Scriptures:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. [The Noble Qur'an 2:79].

Throughout most of the debates that we had, you replied back to Christians, not by answering the qeustions, but by using the same tactics that I am using now. If we post something asking why Muslims persecute, you mention Christians and the crusades. So you can dish it out but you can't take it huh mate?

For example, what about the generations that lived far away long b4 the Jews in the New World (America) (The Jews are named according to Judah, b4 Judah there was nothing called Jews). What about the native people of Australia? etc... Did God left them without a messenger or a revelation? Just take a look at what I posted and then look at your previous stone aged answer. May God Almighty cure you from your square brain sweetheart!!!

During this conversation, did I ever call you names? Yet you call me names? And you calling a Christian "sweetheart" is a compliment. At least you realize your heart is hardened. As for the generations that lived before the Jews:

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us. (Acts 17:26-27)

God does not have to send messengers in order for you to know Him. You have the light of creation and the light of conscience. And even if God did send messangers, what does that have to do with the fact that Islam came 600 years after Christ and Christianity was prophesied by God in Genesis ?

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Bushmaster,

Boring, read the previous page...

How about pointing it out to me. See I can’t be bothered reading all that info again.

Sometimes I do the same thing...

And your point being…?

Why do you need to read Romans?

This has nothing to do with you.

No point my friend, just forget it. It is not about Muhammad acknowledging Christ, like I said don't waste your time reading the Bible.

Ok.

And how do you know that? Did you your own pysical examination?

The hadiths do not confirm such things. This is my source.

Read the OP again, how Gabriel introduced himself to others, especially Mary.

My Quran tells us how Gabriel introduced himself to Mary. Your Bible is not needed.

Read 1 John 4:1-7 again my friend...

Wait a minute. Didn’t you just tell me not to waste my time reading the Bible? Make up your mind man.

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

[Bushmaster]

Make up your mind man.

This discussion is dead, and I am not your man, get your act straight, watch that mouth!

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Bushmaster,

This discussion is dead, and I am not your man, get your act straight, watch that mouth!

Hmm your right there... "your man"?

[Alpha]

This topic is getting nowhere.