Dialogue ~ Light & Lady Fatima

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:29 am

I would like to debate alone with one Muslim here, however I will be asking the questions.

Anyone?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:49 pm

Peace Light,

Sure I'll take the challange...

Light · Postby **Light** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 07:49 pm

We will have to start from Question 1 again.

Question 1

(a)You Muslims agree with us Christians that God is holy, almighty, and good, don't you?

(b)You Muslims also agree with us Christians that God created the world, don't you?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 04:18 am

Peace Light,

You Muslims agree with us Christians that God is holy, almighty, and good, don't you?

That's right!

You Muslims also agree with us Christians that God created the world, don't you?

Right again :wink:

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 04:24 am

Question 2

Do you think the world is perfect, faultless, and good?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 04:32 am

Peace Light,

Do you think the world is perfect, faultless, and good?

Are you referring to also the people that live on Earth or the actual planet itself?

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 04:40 am

Let me simplify it, - Is there evil in the world?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 04:47 am

Peace Light,

Let me simplify it, - Is there evil in the world?

Ofcourse there is! There's satan that lives among us and there is the evil of this world such as alcohol etc... When we can see evil, we can then define good!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 04:50 am

Question 3

Would you agree with me then that because there is evil in the world, therefore the world is not perfect, faultless, and good?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 04:56 am

Peace Light,

Would you agree with me then that because there is evil in the world, therefore the world is not perfect, faultless, and good?

Human beings are not prefect and faultless that's for sure. The Earth we live on is perfect and good. God allows His creations to live among evil, as a means to test us. If human were perfect, then yes, the entire world would be perfect,faultless and good. But since, we are mere beings, than, how can our enviorment be perfect, if we are ruining it ourselves? :-?

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 05:01 am

Question 4

We have established the fact that there is indeed evil in the world, but how can that be, with God having created it? - Is he evil, that he wanted the world to be imperfect, or is he simply not mighty enough to create a perfect world?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 05:09 am

Peace Light,

We have established the fact that there is indeed evil in the world, but how can that be, with God having created it? - Is he evil, that he wanted the world to be imperfect, or is he simpy not mighty enough to create a perfect world?

God gave human beings free will! It is this free will that has brought about the evil in the world. If we didn't have free will and were like the angels, then there wouldn't be evil and we would be perfect in regards to our obedience to God. As humans, we are weak and follow our desires, and our desires lead us to evil things. It is the presence of evil which allows us to judge what is good and what is bad. Staying away from evil and our tempetations is how God will judge mankind! So evil is needed...If everything was good, then how would God be able to judge? That is the main reason why Satan is allowed to roam around us and tempt us...The world is one big exam...you fail once you follow your desires and fall into evil!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 05:20 am

Question 5

(a)Leaving the above answer for now (We'll get on to free will soon)

Would I be right in saying that, as a Muslim, excluding the issues raised above, that God is almighty and good?

(b) Would you agree with me that God's overall creation is imperfect?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 05:24 am

Would I be right in saying that, as a Muslim, excluding the issues raised above, that God is almighty and good?

Yes God Almighty is good, but He's also the judge and the punisher!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 05:33 am

(b) Would you agree with me that God's overall creation is imperfect?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 05:51 am

Peace Light,

Would you agree with me that God's overall creation is imperfect?

Are you trying to connect the evil of the world to "imperfect creation of God"? Humans are not perfect, and thus our environment cannot be perfect. It all comes back to free will!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 05:59 am

Question 6

Well, the creation can't be perfect and imperfect at the same time, so therefore, Would you agree with me that God's overall creation is imperfect?

(a) I agree that the overall creation is imperfect.

(b) I diagree, it is perfect.

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 06:04 am

Peace Light,

Well, the creation can't be perfect and imperfect at the same time, so therefore, Would you agree with me that God's overall creation is imperfect?

The Earth was created perfect, but humans are not perfect! How can we be? When God Almighty is perfect!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 06:18 am

Question 7

Therefore, the creation of everything cannot be perfect because we are imperfect, so I put this to you again, Would you agree with me that God's overall creation is imperfect?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 06:30 am

Peace Light,

Therefore, the creation of everything cannot be perfect because we are imperfect, so I put this to you again, Would you agree with me that God's overall creation is imperfect?

Are you ok? How can humans be perfect? Do we possess all knowledge? Do we not make mistakes? Do we know what we'll happen tomorrow! God created our bodies in a perfect manner, but to say that humans are perfect, would mean that you are claiming we are God. We are not perfect in the sense we are all-knowing, all-powerdul etc... We have limitations! God created human beings perfect, as perfect as we can be!

BTW I have to go and pray!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 06:37 am

Question 8

There is evil in the world, do you consider evil an imperfection?

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 06:43 am

Question 8

(b)

The state of the world seems to indicate that either God is not good, or he is not almighty, if the overall creation is indeed imperfect, can you say that God is good or/and almighty?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 02:09 pm

Peace Light,

There is evil in the world, do you consider evil an imperfection?

Evil is not created, it stems from the actions of human beings who were given free will!

The state of the world seems to indicate that either God is not good, or he is not almighty, if the overall creation is indeed imperfect, can you say that God is good or/and almighty?

Human beings can only reach virtues by choosing with their free will not to pursue vices. If a computer is programmed to always tell the truth we wouldn't call it virtuous. To appreciate light there must be darkness. To appreciate life there must be death. We cannot learn unless we make some mistakes.

Indeed God does have absolute knowledge of all things and has power over all things and He does love those who follow Him. The bad in the world should be seen, not as inherently bad but rather as lessons for humanity from which it must learn and through which we appreciate the value of good things as and when we earn them through our efforts.

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 08:00 pm

Question 9

(a)As a Muslim, do you consider yourself a slave to Allah?

(b)And if so, what does it mean to be a slave to Allah?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:02 pm

Peace Light,

As a Muslim, do you consider yourself a slave to Allah?

Absolutely..It's a great honour to be the slave of Allah.

And if so, what does it mean to be a slave to Allah?

It means that one has reached the main goal for which he/she was created-to worship God Almighty. That is why all the Prophets-including Mohammad-were slaves of Allah!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:08 pm

Question 10

So, therefore, a Muslim must be a slave, right?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:12 pm

Peace Light,

So, therefore, a Muslim must be a slave, right?

That's correct...all Muslims who have iman ( loosely translated as faith) and do good deeds and love Allah and the messengers, are slaves of Allah-the highest honour given to any individual.

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:20 pm

Question 11

Therefore, just as you have said

It means that one has reached the main goal for which he/she was created-to worship God Almighty

You have been created to be slaves, right?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:24 pm

Peace Light,

You have been created to be slaves, right?

We have been created to worship Allah as stated by the Quran- infact this is the purposes for all mankind and jinn alike! When we achieve this purpose or are striving in this purpose, we become the slaves of Allah.

Light · Postby **Light** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:32 pm

Question 12

Define freewill?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:50 pm

Peace Light,

Define freewill?

Being able to make choices!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:02 am

Question 13

Can a Muslim choose to reject Allah?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 01:01 am

Peace Light,

Can a Muslim choose to reject Allah?

There's no point accepting Allah if you truly don't want to. In Islam, we consider such a person to be a Manifuquun ( or hypocrites). Those who choose willingly to reject Allah we'll find their obode in the fire. Harsh? It's reality man!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 01:06 am

Question 14

Do you believe that Allah has pre-ordained everything?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 01:28 am

Peace Light,

Do you believe that Allah has pre-ordained everything?

Ahh... I see where this is going. :wink:

The Qadr (translated as pre-destination) of Allah is something that cannot be understood with human intellect. Allah tells mankind they have free will but at the same time, everything has already been decreed. What will happen, will happen. To say that Allah does not know what will happen before hand, means that you are saying that God is ignorant, which is not the case. Both free will and Qadr go together, eventhough they seem contradictory. We cannot understand it, because it deals with the essence of God's powers. Since we don't know or understand how God "runs" the world, it means that we will not be able to understand the Qadr. Prophet Mohammad told the Muslims not to engage into details about Qadr because it would confuse the Muslims and to just concentrate on our worship of God. When I was young, I used to continiously ponder on who created God, but now I know that it's something that I won't be able to understand. The Qadr is something you can ask about God when one enters heaven.But for now, it remains with the knowledge of God and is among "the knowledge of the unseen".

And Allah knows best!

P.S , I’ll answer your other questions later, God Willing!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 01:33 am

Question 15

(a)Would I be right in saying that Islam ultimately means submission to the inevitable?

(b)Is Pre-ordained sin man's responsibility?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 07:09 am

Peace Light,

Would I be right in saying that Islam ultimately means submission to the inevitable?

Islam means submission to the will of God- what God wants mankind to do, thus worshipping Him.

Is Pre-ordained sin man's responsibility?

Sin comes from human beings being able to make their own choices. If we disn't have free will, like the Angels, we would never commit a sin, but since we willingly commit sins, then it's the fault of the individual and not God Almighty. Allah says in the Quran:

And say: "The Truth is from your Lord." Then whosoever wills, let him believe, and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve. Verily, We have prepared for the unjust, a Fire whose walls will be surrounding them (18:29)

The Qadar is not something than can be understood by human beings because it is part of the knowledge of the unseen and only God knows. The Prophet Mohammed told us not to ponder on it because we will not be able to understand it, and just worship God Almighty and do good deeds.
Allah told us that human beings have been given free will but at that same time God knows what will occur before it takes place. How both can take place simultaneously , is with God!

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

Light · Postby **Light** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 05:19 pm

I will come back to freewill, you said as a child you wondered about who created God, the answer of course is that no one created God, but that God is eternal. I used to ask the same question, I did however find the answer in the Bible.

Let's go back now, I'm having a problem I admit, that is, I've yet to establish real baseline agreement between you and I.

Question 16

You said that the environment can't be perfect because we are ruining it ourselves, in the context of the environment, that is true up to a point.

However, there are many things on this planet that mankind does not effect, indeed we create problems and so the environment suffers, but how about natural disasters such as volcanoes and earthquakes to name but a few?

Therefore, in an ideal world, would volcanoes and earthquakes be present?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 09:33 pm

Peace Light,

You said that the environment can't be perfect because we are ruining it ourselves, in the context of the environment, that is true up to a point.

By the environment I did not mean the creation of Earth. If you’d like to read back, I said God had created the Earth perfect; everything created is needed for a purpose. The environment that we were ruin can include like the for example the hole in the ozone layer, but what I meant primarily was wars, murders ect…which we commit ourselves.

Therefore, in an ideal world, would volcanoes and earthquakes be present?

I’m not a scientist, so I suggest your research this one up yourself. I guarantee you; you will find an overall benefit in volcanoes and earthquakes.

BTW Light, you claim you are a Christian, but you are sounding alot like an Athiest with the sort of questions you are asking :-?

Light · Postby **Light** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 09:45 pm

Question 17

I'm asking you the question and not a scientist, I do not believe that one has to be qualified to answer such a question, it's down to common sense.

In an ideal world, would volcanoes and earthquakes be present?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 09:53 pm

Peace Light,

I'm asking you the question and not a scientist, I do not believe that one has to be qualified to answer such a question, it's down to common sense. In an ideal world, would volcanoes and earthquakes be present?

Is it common sense now? Is knowing about volcanoes and earthquakes considered general knowledge? Get real light. I've already told you, I am not aware of the function they play, but since you reckon they should be "common sense", then why should you be asking me? Really, tell me, what role do volcanoes and earthquakes play? I know that you are being lazy and do not want to put the effort in researching, but I won't spoon feed you. Search it upself!!!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 09:56 pm

Question 18

Is paradise perfect?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 09:58 pm

Peace Light,

Is paradise perfect?

Yes ofcourse it is!

Light · Postby **Light** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:11 pm

Question 19

Define perfection?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:25 pm

Peace Light,

Perfection, hmm....In this context, I mean that we no longer sin, there's no disobedience and we live in complete harmony with one another. :wink:

The heaven will be perfect because we will live among the angels, and all the pious people, and God will be there too.

Light · Postby **Light** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:33 pm

Question 20

Why do you believe there is a difference between the creation and paradise?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:40 pm

Peace Light,

Why do you believe there is a difference between the creation and paradise?

The creation being humans? I'm assuming that is what you mean. Human beings, when in paradise are not perfect in the sense that we possess all-knowldege, all-power or in other words, we don't share the qualities of God. But when in paradise, we do not commit sin, for God has cleansed sin from our hearts and there is no evil tempetation in paradise. This is what I meant by perfection. Also we don't go for the call of nature in paradise. That's something :wink:

Light · Postby **Light** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:45 pm

(b)

No, not just humans, I mean the whole creation.

Why do you believe there is a difference between the creation and paradise?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:54 pm

Peace Light,

Why do you believe there is a difference between the creation and paradise?

Well because in paradise, there will be no sin and thus no problems, unlike here on Earth. Furthermore, paradise is nothing like what we've experience, so I don't know what explanation you're waiting for :-?

Light · Postby **Light** » Sun Nov 30, 2003 11:08 pm

Question 21

Would you consider Paradise as being better than the creation?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 04:14 am

Peace Light,

What is included in the "creation"?

Light · Postby **Light** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 04:16 am

(b)

What is included in the creation according to the Qur'an?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 04:23 am

Peace Light,

You can't answer a question with a question :wink:

What is included in the creation according to the Qur'an?

Everything except God. What do you want to discuss?

Light · Postby **Light** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 04:29 am

You can't answer a question with a question

You can if the question put forward lacks direction.

However I will answer your question,

What is included in the "creation"?

Let's toss one example forward - Planet Earth

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 06:11 am

Peace Light,

Yes paradise is greater than this Earth, that is why it will be reward for those who worship God.

Light · Postby **Light** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 06:14 am

Question 22

So, paradise is perfect and is greater than this Earth, this therefore means that the Earth is imperfect, right?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 06:23 am

Peace Light,

So, paradise is perfect and is greater than this Earth, this therefore means that the Earth is imperfect, right?

Heh

It doesn't mean that all. You can't compare paradise with this planet. God created paradise and our planet each in it's unique way. The reason that paradise is greater is because of the inhabitants, and that everything in paradise is nothing we've ever imagined or have come across. And ofcourse the Angels and God Himself will be there. Thats the difference!

Light · Postby **Light** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 06:27 am

Question 23

(a)Is perfection unique?

(b)You said that paradise can't be compared to Planet Earth, you never directly answered the question, if paradise being greater is perfect, then Planet Earth being lesser must be imperfect, right?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 01:52 pm

Peace Light,

Is perfection unique?

Perfection is unique to Almighty God. No-one else can claim it!

You said that paradise can't be compared to Planet Earth, you never directly answered the question, if paradise being greater is perfect, then Planet Earth being lesser must be imperfect, right?

See you missed my point. Now what you're doing is comparing Earth to paradise. God Almighty created both the Earth and the heavens in the best manner but they are not alike and thus cannot be compared. Heaven is greater than our planet for many reasons. For example, God is present in the heavens, so are the angels and all the pious people and the prophets. Furthermore, there are no wars in heaven, no starvation or death. In heaven, everything we desire will be at our finger tips, and God will be pleased with us. This is the greatness that I was referring to. I believe what you mean is the way the Earth and the heaven were created. Am I correct? If this is so, then there's no comparison, for they are unique in their creation!

Light · Postby **Light** » Mon Dec 01, 2003 07:01 pm

Question 24

Mankind is part of the creation, you believe that the creation is perfect, but if mankind is imperfect, how then can the creation be perfect?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:54 am

Peace Light,

Mankind is part of the creation, you believe that the creation is perfect, but if mankind is imperfect, how then can the creation be perfect?

We shouldn't even be applying the word "perfect" to anything else besides God, but I understand what you mean. Allah says in the Quran, that He created man in the best shape. However to use the word "perfection" in describing mankind would be incorrect, because only God is perfect. We have our limitations, and if we were perfect, we would be on the same level as God Almighty!

Light · Postby **Light** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 01:37 am

Question 25

So, God is perfect and no one is perfect except God, then imperfection does exist in the creation, let's hit the nail on the head here, this world is not perfect, we've got disease, natural disasters, death, I could on and on, let's not beat around the bush.

I put it to you that it's not because God couldn't make it perfect, of course he could have made the world perfect and it's not that he isn't almighty, so therefore there must be a reason.

Do you agree with what I have said so far?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 01:24 pm

Peace Light,

Do you agree with what I have said so far?

No!

So, God is perfect and no one is perfect except God, then imperfection does exist in the creation, .

I'd like to first clear up the word perfect and what it could be applied to. I have done some reading, and by the grace of God, I have found some answers.

The word perfect falls into 2 catogories. There's the perfection of God Almight, and the perfection of everything else. For example, as Muslims we say that our beloved prophet Muhammad and all the other prophets were perfect according to human standards. But they are not like God ofcourse. Let me give you an example. As beings we see and hear. God also sees and hears. But is our hearing and seeing like God's hearing and seeing. Simarily when speaking on perfection, the prophets can be deemed perfect but only in regards to human standards.

let's hit the nail on the head here, this world is not perfect, we've got disease, natural disasters, death, I could on and on, let's not beat around the bush

We don't live in a utpoia world Light. This is the way God created the world, and when a calamity occurs, it is because God is testing the human to see how she/he will act. For example, if a flood occurs, and several members of your family die, then know that it was their time to die and that it is a test on you to see if you will turn to God for assistance or get angry with God. Allah says in the Quran that everyone will be tested while they are on this Earth, and we will all be tested through various ways. Some maybe through poverty, sickness, wealth, death of family members etc..
This testing will end once you get to heaven and that is why there's no sickness, death etc..in heaven. I hope I've made myself clear

Light · Postby **Light** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 07:01 pm

Question 26

We don't live in a utopia world Light, This is the way God created the world

You just said it yourself

Utopia = "an IDEAL and PERFECT place or state, where everyone lives in HARMONY and everything is for the BEST"

Finally, you've answered the question, this is not a perfect world, it's not ideal and people do not live in harmony with one another and it's not the best.

The reason given by you is that this world is a testing ground and that God is responsible for the natural disasters, disease, death and so on. I.E

it is because God is testing the human to see how she/he will act.

Do you agree?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 05:59 am

Peace Light,

Finally, you've answered the question, this is not a perfect world, it's not ideal and people do not live in harmony with one another and it's not the best. The reason given by you is that this world is a testing ground and that God is responsible for the natural disasters, disease, death and so on. I.E

A utopia is something that is impractical for the life of this world. Utopia means that all human beings live in harmony with another and that no conflict occurs. Can that occur? It would mean changing the nature of humans. That is why it is seen as being impractical. No one believes in a utopia. It is a fantasy of one's own imagination.

Moving on...

As I've already said when a calamity occurs ( death, disease etc..) know that it's only test to the strength of someone's faith.

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

Light · Postby **Light** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 06:43 am

Question 27

A Utopian world is a perfect world, whether it exists matters not, the word has a certain meaning.

We don't live in a utopia world Light

You have just out and out admitted that this world is imperfect. Read over the meaning again ""an Ideal and Perfect place or state, where everyone lives in Harmony and everything is for the Best"

Utopia (Meaning) represents perfection.

No one believes in a utopia. It is a fantasy of one's own imagination.

So, why believe in paradise?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 06:48 am

Peace Light,

A Utopian world is a perfect world, whether it exists matters not, the word has a certain meaning.

It is a fantasy! How can you have harmony, when people are not harmonous themselves?

Utopia (Meaning) represents perfection.

Aren't we deluded :roll:

So, why believe in paradise?

If you don't remember, I had stated in this world.

Light · Postby **Light** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 06:55 am

Question 28

Aren't we deluded?

Would Utopia be your idea of paradise?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 06:58 am

Peace Light,

Would Utopia be your idea of paradise?

Utopia would be my idea of paradise because in paradise, the test of this world would have ended, and human beings will no longer be sinning and there would be harmony among us!

Light · Postby **Light** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 07:04 am

Question 29

So the definition of Utopia - Ideal, Perfect, Harmony - would match your expectation of Paradise?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 07:12 am

Peace Light,

So the definition of Utopia - Ideal, Perfect, Harmony - would match your expectation of Paradise?

Yes it would match my expectation of paradise. But I see where what you're trying to get! :wink:

God created the Earth to a be a testing ground for mankind, and heaven is what you will be rewarded with. There purposes are completely different! I see that you are against death, but how do you expect to leave this world. Are you going to fly out

Light · Postby **Light** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 07:28 am

Question 30

So, Utopia = Perfection = Paradise.

We don't live in a utopia world Light

Correct, therefore this world is imperfect, right?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 07:31 am

Peace Light,

Correct, therefore this world is imperfect, right?

You would be right if we could compare our world with heaven. The question is, can you?

Light · Postby **Light** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 07:40 am

Question 31

You haven't seen God, yet you believe he exists,

From your reading of the Qur'an, you accept that paradise is a much better place than the Earth, right?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 07:49 am

Peace Light,

From your reading of the Qur'an, you accept that paradise is a much better place than the Earth, right?

Paradise is a reward, and since there will be no death, disease or any other form of testing, it will be a better place for all those who believed!

Light · Postby **Light** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 07:54 am

Question 32

You haven't seen Paradise and yet you accept that Paradise is better because it is written down in the Qur'an, right?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 07:56 am

Peace Light,

You haven't seen Paradise and yet you accept that Paradise is better because it is written down in the Qur'an, right?

Ofourse, because I believe in the hadiths and the words of Allah!

Light · Postby **Light** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:47 pm

Question 33

Your comparison of Earth to Paradise is based upon what is written in the Qur'an, right?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:41 pm

Peace Light,

Your comparison of Earth to Paradise is based upon what is written in the Qur'an, right?

And hadith yes!

Light · Postby **Light** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:02 am

Question 34

You accept that a comparison of our world with heaven can only be understood by reading the Qur'an, whether you have seen paradise or not makes no difference, it is based upon your reading the text of the Qur'an, right?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:05 am

Peace Light,

You accept that a comparison of our world with heaven can only be understood by reading the Qur'an, whether you have seen paradise or not makes no difference, it is based upon your reading the text of the Qur'an, right?

And the hadith. Can you please get to your point! :-?

Light · Postby **Light** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:17 am

Question 35

You said in answer to Question 30, that I would be right in calling the world imperfect if I could actually compare both, meaning thus that I would have to see Paradise before deciding if this world is imperfect.

However you base your comparison, as you have said again and again on what the Qur'an and Hadiths say, you have not seen Paradise, you draw your conclusion from your reading of the Qur'an and Hadiths.

So, would I now be right in saying that the world is indeed imperfect considering that you draw your conclusion from the text and not from actually seeing Paradise?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 01:02 am

Peace Light,

meaning thus that I would have to see Paradise before deciding if this world is imperfect.

I never said such things. This is your own interpretation! I already know enough of paradise to know that it cannot be compared to our life on Earth!

So, would I now be right in saying that the world is indeed imperfect considering that you draw your conclusion from the text and not from actually seeing Paradise?

What the...

Light · Postby **Light** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 01:07 am

Question 36

Well, have you seen paradise?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 01:10 am

Peace Light,

Well, have you seen paradise?

Do I need to? :wink:

Light · Postby **Light** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 01:23 am

Question 37

Peace Light,

Correct, therefore this world is imperfect, right?

You would be right if we could compare our world with heaven. The question is, can you?

The bold text is what you said in answer to Question 30.

So, you don't need to see paradise, therefore because your answer is based not on seeing Paradise but on what the Qur'an and Hadiths say,
Aren't you applying a double standard to me by saying - "You would be right if we could compare our world with heaven. The question is, can you?"

Using you logic, I don't need to compare both in any other way except by reading what is said in the Qur'an and Hadiths, and in that case, I would be right in saying that the Earth is indeed imperfect, right?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 01:35 am

Peace Light,

Aren't you applying a double standard to me by saying - "You would be right if we could compare our world with heaven. The question is, can you?"

Huh?

You have completely lost me here!

Using you logic, I don't need to compare both in any other way except by reading what is said in the Qur'an and Hadiths, and in that case, I would be right in saying that the Earth is indeed imperfect, right?

But the Quran and hadith do not say that the Earth is imperfect, but that it was created for a different purpose! So what's your point?

Light · Postby **Light** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 01:44 am

Question 38

You agreed to the comparison of Utopia to Paradise, that both are considered perfect, though a place called Utopia does not exist, the meaning and description of the word matched your expectation of Paradise, being perfect.

You however said the following earlier

So, Utopia = Perfection = Paradise.

We don't live in a utopia world Light

You accept that according to the Qur'an, Paradise is better than the Earth.

So, is the Earth imperfect?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 01:46 am

Peace Light,

So, is the Earth imperfect?

No the Earth is different :wink:

Light · Postby **Light** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 02:06 am

Question 39

In answer to Question 21, you said

Peace Light,

Yes paradise is greater than this Earth, that is why it will be reward for those who worship God.

(a) So the Earth must be lesser than paradise, right?

(b) If your reward from Allah were to stay on Earth forever, would you consider it a reward?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 02:26 am

Peace Light,

(a) So the Earth must be lesser than paradise, right?

Yes only in purpose! Paradise has a greater and grander purpose, therefore, it's greater than Earth!

(b) If your reward from Allah were to stay on Earth forever, would you consider it a reward?

Absolutely not! The reward is not only an everlasting life, but to live among the angels, the pious people, God Himself, and to have everything you desire. This is the reward. You definetly would not get that on Earth!

Light · Postby **Light** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 03:17 am

Question 40

Will you have free will in paradise?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 01:36 pm

Peace Light,

Will you have free will in paradise?

Yes, the inhabitants ( humans and jinn) will have free will in paradise!

Light · Postby **Light** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 06:40 pm

Question 41

Would you agree with me that perfection implies freedom, and that true freedom implies the possibility of evil?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:27 pm

Peace Light,

Would you agree with me that perfection implies freedom,

No!

and that true freedom implies the possibility of evil?

Not necesserily. This is would be only in the case of this world!

Light · Postby **Light** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:51 pm

Question 42

According to the Bible, one of the reasons for men's creation is that we might honour God by praising him and doing his will, and I'm sure the Qur'an will agree with this, yes?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 11:54 pm

Peace Light,

According to the Bible, one of the reasons for men's creation is that we might honour God by praising him and doing his will, and I'm sure the Qur'an will agree with this, yes?

We were created to worship Him, but yes. Please go on :wink:

Light · Postby **Light** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:03 am

Question 43

If I am being praised, or people do my will, does that honour or dishonour me?

Lady Fatima · Postby **Lady Fatima** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 12:09 am

Peace Light,

If I am being praised, or people do my will, does that honour or dishonour me?

Well that's silly...Ofcourse that would be honouring you! However, the will that is being referred to when Muslims say "sumbitting to the will of God" is that we should worship God. This is what is meant by will. Now that does not imply that one does not have free will!

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