What is this Tahannuth worship?, so Mohammed goes to a cave to practice this tahannuth worship and goes back to his pagan wife to obtain provisions to go back to this cave for a like period, am I to believe his pagan wife is giving him provisions to go retreat himself in a cave and worship the one true God?
You didnt prove anything here. It was already explained from islamic doctrine that the pagan worshiped idols in association with Allah.
From a few verses in your koran, with the host of volumes of hadith you are unable to show me one clear cut case of any pagan associating hubal as a mediator to get to allah.
"Tahannuth" Do you know what this word means ? It is to withdraw to seclusion in the cause of religous purification
That is not what the word means:
"Tabari VI:70 “In the beginning of the Messenger’s prophetic mission he used to spend a month every year in religious retreat on Hira. This was part of the practice of Tahannuth in which the Quraysh used to engage during the Jahiliyyah. Tahannuth means self-justification.’”" Tahannuth from that hadith means self justification the pagan quraysh already practiced it, it is a pagan ritual nothing to do with worshipping the One True God,(btw if you want to try out Mohammed's tahannuth; go out in a cave and stay there for a month in pitch darkness I promise you, you will meet something, just like Joseph Smith, it's nothing new, it is well known in the occult, american indians still do the same thing to find their spirit guide, are you telling me what they meet is God? Former occultists will tell you
"ringing of bells" is synonymous with occultic behaviour) the whole idea of self justifying pervades throughout Mohammed's religion no matter how propostrous he was going to justify it, The ka'ba was circumnavigated by Abraham ( Since you claim to be of jewish descent I take it you realise Abraham's name was not always Abraham, I hope you realise the quran never acknowledges this fact it just parrots Abraham throughout the whole koran like that was always his name, precisely what you would expect if the listener had been hearing nothing but stories about Abraham and simply incorporated it into the religion with no chronological history of anybody which is what is expected from hearing aesop fables) and all the previous prophets, I deserve 5%, I deserve to marry more than 4 wives, no one should look at my wives except if they are wearing a blanket to make them deaf, dumb and blind, no one should marry my wives after I die. Mohammed is the epitome of arrogance and megalomania, which is what tahannuth made him.
Again read my post above, and please I would like to see your evidence the jews prayed to Yahweh through baal
I read your post. I disagree with you interpretation. Now you asking me to do something I dont want to do, but since you asked then sure:
Why don't you want to do it?, if you believe you have the monopoly on truth you should have no qualms exposing what you believe to be lies.
Jeremiah 31:31-32:
"Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was husband (hebrew ~ Baal) unto them, saith Yahweh."
This is what my lexicon says
1166 ba`al baw-al'
a primitive root; to be master; hence, (as denominative from 1167) to marry:--have dominion (over), be husband, marry(-ried, X wife).
I don't see the problem here this is not the same as baal/ha'baal the idol, and if you recall we agreed baal meant lord, the language existed before it was applied to the pagan idol:
1168 Ba`al bah'-al
the same as 1167; Baal, a Phoenician deity:--Baal, (plural) Baalim.
This is like saying since this is called an idol god it must be God. Since I call an idol baal lord he must be lord?
How did Isaac and Jacob get into this ? THe Quran only speaks of Abraham and Ishmael in connection with the Ka'abah this shows how much you dont know and you have never read the Quran before
Am I to believe your beliefs do not stress Abraham and his sons circumnavigated that abomination you call a shrine?
I didnt want to quote a muslim source cause then it could be said to be biased so I quoted enemies of islam.
I quoted them on the bases that we agreed on one particular issue even though they were critics.
I see; so you agree that allah is derived from the sky god el? This is like using the arguments of an atheist as a muslim to disprove christianity.
By the way the challenge was EMBRYOLOGY. Man being made out of clay was not the issue of debate. I mentioned embryology and you went off into the clay issue...lol
You are right my apologies I couldn't believe that you would honestly believe this was an accurate description of embryology, it sounded more like the many variations of man's creation.
Let us examine those verses using
your translation :
[23:13] And indeed We have Created Man (male and female) from an extaction of clay [Alarm bells should be ringing at this stage what does clay have to do with embryology? ], this is not being taken out of context either, this verse is conjunctive with all the remaining "divine utterings" that follow it from your translation]
[23:14] Then We placed him as a sperm into a thing that sojournes and implants [ man's seed is implanted into the woman, this has been known since the dawn of mankind, hardly a miracle]
[ 24:15] Then We made the sperm as a thing that clings and then We made the thing that clings as something that is chewed, and then We made the chewing as bones and then We clothed the bones with muscle then He (Allah) brings it out as another creation; and sublime is Allah the best of makers Aristotle was already dissecting the stomachs of pregnant animals to have a look at the foetus, the practice of looking at foetuses was done thousands of years before Mohammed, even Cleopatra did it, this is not a miracle, I am amazed you think it so.
I wonder if you have heard about the history about the quote in bold, one of the 42 scribes Mohammed used to write the alledged divine revelations said those words in bold, he actually renounced islam since Mohammed allowed him to interpolate his own words in and he knew this was not divine, all early islamic historians mention this. From the sirat rasullah:
"The apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered Mecca only to fight those who resisted them except a small number who were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the Ka`ba. Among them was `Abdullah b. Sa`d, brother of the B. `Amir b. Lu'ayy. The reason he ordered him to be killed was that he had been a Muslim and used to write down revelation; then he apostatized and returned to Qurahysh [Mecca] and fled to `Uthman b. `Affan whose foster brother he was. [`Uthman was one of Muhammad's closest friends, and later became the Caliph of Islam]" All early islamic historians acknowledge it is him that this verse in the koran is pertaining to :
"Who is more wicked than the man who invents a falsehood about God, or says: "This was revealed to me", when nothing was revealed to him? Or the man who says, "I can reveal the like of what God has revealed"? " [
Bear in mind there is a copy of the koran in heaven before the creation of the world!]
Again the reason why I chose hadiths is they make logic sense of koranic verses, this does not contradict the koran at all, are you being truthful that this verse on it's own makes logical sense to you? the hadiths expose islam for the fraud it is.
Sahih Muslim Number 6390: `Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported that Allah's Messenger ... said: "Verily your creation is on this wise. The constituents of one of you are collected for forty days in his mother's womb in the form of blood [sperm?], after which it becomes a clot of blood in another period of forty days. Then it becomes a lump of flesh and forty days later Allah sends his angel to it ..." This does not contradict the koran that is why it is a sahih, since you are of the opinion I am quoting hadiths that contradict the koran I would like you to show me where they do. Sperm does not survive in the mother's womb for 40 days, according to Mohammed 120 days later the sperm is now a lump of flesh the word is alaqa (you interpret it as a thing that clings) and means something that can be chewed like a piece of meat. 120 days later the foetus does not look like anything that can be chewed, from your website source by the 60th day the foetus has a rounded head body and limbs hardly a piece of meat that can be chewed like plasticine.
The next stage of embrylogy development in the koran states that bones are created and then covered with flesh, we know that the mesoderm tissue which is responsible for bone development is also the same tissue that is responsible for the development of skin and muscle, it is also recognised that they develop simultaenously, right into an individual's teenage years, not bones first then covered with skin, btw this is plagiarised material from the greek doctor Galen, hardly original.
Galen: De Semine in Greek
But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails (Arabic nutfah). At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood (Arabic alaqa), and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts (Arabic mudghah). You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches. The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed (Arabic ‘a new creation’) ...
... The time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and to bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones, and at the same time ... it made at the ends of the bones ligaments that bind them to each other, and along their entire length it placed around them on all sides thin membranes, called periosteal, on which it caused flesh to grow
Basim Musallam, Director of the Centre of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Cambridge concludes
"The stages of development which the Qur'an and Hadith established for believers agreed perfectly with Galen's scientific account ... There is no doubt that medieval thought appreciated this agreement between the Qur'an and Galen , for Arabic science employed the same Qur'anic terms to describe the Galenic stages Maybe Galen was a muslim?
Why has Mohammed decided to only list 4 stages of embryonic development, are you honestly going to comply that the embryo has only 4 stages? nutfah (drop of water), alaqa (blood clot, leech like clot, congealed blood, clinging leech material (your interpretation are you superior in arabic translation than Yusuf Ali, Hilali and Khan, Pickthall et al, which one is it? The arabic dictionary Qamus al-Muheet calls it clot of blood;
my own personal stance on this is that muslims can claim whatever they want precisely because the language can be so open to personal interpretation "the moon has split" can be allocated as a fulfilled prophecy by Armstrong and Aldrin landing on it in 1969 and taking off little bits of it (the split!)), mudghah ( a piece of meat which a man can chew) plus the stage of putting flesh on bones?
Let us look at this in perspective the alledged creator of the universe in a message to all mankind for all eternity when addressing embryonic development gives us these stages: drop of water... leech like clinging clot.... a piece of meat which a man can chew... flesh on bones.
I could ask a few embryologists giving them that sequence and telling them it came from the 7th century on embryological development I don't know if they would laugh or cry, if I then told them it is alledgedly from the Almighty, when such a scenario can easily be deduced just from stages of miscarriages alone.
I hope you have heard of Harith Bin Kalada (Haris ibn Kalda) a contemporary of Mohammed the islamic medical manuscripts website says Mohammed referred sick people to him(
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/arabic/bioH.html) who studied medicine at one of the juri-shapur(Gorideshapur) in Persia a
GALENIC school, so much for divine inspiration, when theres a galenic medical doctor to plagiarise from.
Present this to an Embryolgist and have him send me his report that this is inaccurate with his PHD signiture and Medical facility and I will renounce Islam
Uhm since allah is so compassionate and merciful you will have 3 days to come back to your senses (which is revert back to islam) before a mujaheddin comes and slits your throat according to all schools of jurispundence on apostates, which brings me to a serious point why would God need to threaten you to stay in the religion?
..where is the evidence in the hadiths that the pagans were using their idols as mediators to get to allah?
Volumn 004, Book 054, Hadith Number 461.
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Narated By Jabir bin 'Abdullah : That he heard the Prophet saying, "The Divine Inspiration was delayed for a short period but suddenly, as I was walking. I heard a voice in the sky, and when I looked up towards the sky, to my surprise, I saw the angel who had come to me in the Hira Cave, and he was sitting on a chair in between the sky and the earth. I was so frightened by him that I fell on the ground and came to my family and said (to them), 'Cover me! (with a blanket), cover me!' Then Allah sent the Revelation: 'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn, and magnify your Lord (Allah), and your garments (of righteousness) be purified and shun idolotry.' (74.1-5)
This does not prove the pagans were using idols as intermediaries to get to allah (No doubt once you are done you are going to tell us praying to Jesus is the same thing lol). All that hadith shows is Mohammed was a pagan
... " May Allah curse the Jews , for Allah made the fat (of animals) illegal for them, yet they melted the fat and sold it and ate its price."
I removed the early quotes of that hadith because like the first hadith you quoted it doesn't prove the pagans were using idols as an intermediary to get to allah; in fact none of the subsequent hadiths you have pasted have shown this. Look at the quote in bold, am I the only one that senses nothing but anti judaism emanating from islam, how do you feel if you really are a jew that your religion is saying "may God curse you", do you not see that something is terribly wrong here, I suspect you are probably going to say I am drifting from the subject, but this must be addressed you can't show me logical fallacies like this and tell me this message is coming from the one true God and expect me to swallow it.
Volumn 004, Book 055, Hadith Number 546.
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Narated By Anas : When 'Abdullah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle" Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." 'Abdullah said, "He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." Allah's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her." On that 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that you are the Apostle of Allah." 'Abdullah bin Salam further said, "O Allah's Apostle! The Jews are liars, and if they should come to know about my conversion to Islam before you ask them (about me), they would tell a lie about me." The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and 'Abdullah went inside the house. Allah's Apostle asked (the Jews), "What kind of man is 'Abdullah bin Salam amongst you?" They replied, "He is the most learned person amongst us, and the best amongst us, and the son of the best amongst us." Allah's Apostle said, "What do you think if he embraces Islam (will you do as he does)?" The Jews said, "May Allah save him from it." Then 'Abdullah bin Salam came out in front of them saying, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah." Thereupon they said, "He is the evilest among us, and the son of the evilest amongst us," and continued talking badly of him.
I have met this hadith many a time, to me it is one of the classic hadith fabrications, please apply some logic to this hadith, a jew comes to the prophet and says I am going to ask you three things which no one knows but a prophet ( then how does the jew know? is he a prophet too?).
""He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." ..."The Jews are liars"" Since you claim to be a former jew, the more you paste me hadiths that demonises the jews begs the question do you really believe it? I am still waiting for an answer on how you view the Bukhari hadiths that says a tree will be saying
"Oh servant of allah there is a jew behind me come and kill him" In light of our dicussion on embryology how can you paste me this drivel?
"As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her."" Well lets see....I say in my prayer "BismillahirRahmanirRaheem" ~ " In the name of Allah the Most Compassionate the Most Merciful"
This is a chant, are you aware of the relationship between occult and chants? If you don't say it your prayers are not answered?
I asked for many things and they were granted. I asked to be better in health, and right way I was cured, I asked for for forgiveness (wont know the answer about that until after I die) I asked for a beautiful pious wife and He granted me that, and so one and so on
.
Hindus, satanists, sikhs, Ba'hai, shintos, humanists even ask for requests and get their prayers answered does this mean they are serving the one true God, or their prayers are answered in spite of, we are living in a period of grace, where God's grace falls on the ungodly and the godly.
Some requests that are asked are answered in my dreams of their approval. And also I am warned about events that will take place for me to prepare my self for their encounters.
Spiritists, mediums, clairvoyants, clairaudients, voodoo priests also show the same gifts, if I were you I would be very worried. If the devil really exists, what on earth do you think he will be doing do you honestly believe he will be laughing at people as they yawn or sits in a straight line with his jinns running away from the recital of the koran or hiding in a sand storm in the arabian peninsula (maybe a genie lamp too) , don't you think he would be about creating counterfeit religions, attacking the one true one, in a world of ungodliness islam is the fastest growing religion what on earth does that tell you?
However Christians don't understand it, but they blindly follow it. That's it in a nutshell. I believe I was fair! 
Also the muslims have an orignial text, you dont. 
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