Allah says His words cannot be altered

[Alpha]

First the Qu'ran says that Allah did sent the Torah, the Psalms, and the gospels:

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).

"We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).

"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).

Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).

Now Muslims would say these things are true. But the Torah and gospels we have now are corrupted. Well let us see what the Qu'ran says about those Books being corrupted:

Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).

"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," (6:115).

For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity," (10:64).

Now, am I suppose to take every single verse here literally like you Muslims take every single verse in the Bible literally, or is there figurative language involved? If you are going to make arguments against these sayings, please do not use double standards as you normally do.

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Alpha,

When God says in the Quran that non can alter His word, what is being referred to here is the Quran. The Torah, the Injil, and the Psalms, were not intended for all mankind, so Allah did not give the promise that He will protect them from corruption. I swear to God, I feel like I'm repeating myself

And Allah knows best

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

[webmaster]

Sorry Lady Fatima but it clearly says that in
sura 87 To Moses, Allah gave the Book..The Book which is the Words (and decrees) of Yahweh!


Any Books(Torah, the Injil, and the Psalms) with the Words of Allah in it
Allah says there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah.

I swear to God, I feel like I'm repeating myself

Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil .

Leviticus 19:12 'And you shall not swear by My name falsely, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Exodus 20:7 — "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name."

[oneGOD]

Salam,

Yes the word of God can not be altered and it was never altered in the REAL TORAH and the REAL GOSPEL. The Torah was basically the ten commanments and the law. The Gospel of Jesus was also kinda the same. They were maybe lost or destroyed. The Quran is the word of God and it wasn't altered also.

[Alpha]

When God says in the Quran that non can alter His word, what is being referred to here is the Quran. The Torah, the Injil, and the Psalms, were not intended for all mankind, so Allah did not give the promise that He will protect them from corruption. I swear to God, I feel like I'm repeating myself

Where in the Qu'ran does it say this? You tell me! I'm not saying your argument is wrong, but what I am saying is you are using a logical argument. The way you interpret that scripture can be considered the way I interpreted the "You shall no longer be called Jacob but Isreal" scripture. We interpret those scriptures by using common sense. But when I use my common sense, you reject it, so am I suppose to accept yours? So can you make up your mind? It's either we do things literally or from a common sense point of view. You be the judge.

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Alpha,

Where in the Qu'ran does it say this? You tell me! I'm not saying your argument is wrong, but what I am saying is you are using a logical argument. The way you interpret that scripture can be considered the way I interpreted the "You shall no longer be called Jacob but Isreal" scripture. We interpret those scriptures by using common sense. But when I use my common sense, you reject it, so am I suppose to accept yours? So can you make up your mind? It's either we do things literally or from a common sense point of view. You be the judge.

The Quran clearly says that the Jews had changed the revelations sent to them . Allah says in the Quran:


"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."( 5:41)

And again:

"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." (5:13)

However, for the Quran, Allah says:

"We (Allah) have, without a doubt, sent down the Message (The Quran); and We (Allah) will assuredly Guard it [from corruption]. (15:9)

You can't just pick out a couple of verses from the Quran and try to understand it. You have to take in all the verses, and read the tafsir ( interpretation and meaning) of the Quran, to fully comprehend, and understand it.

By the way Alpha, I apologise, if I have upset you. I promise I won't take everything "literally" next time.

And Allah knows best!

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

[Alpha]

By the way Alpha, I apologise, if I have upset you. I promise I won't take everything "literally" next time.

This is all I wanted to accomplish with this topic.

[Believer]

Lady Fatima stated:
The Quran clearly says that the Jews had changed the revelations sent to them . Allah says in the Quran

Does this make any sense????
Jews and Christians love their scriptures like you do.
Would you Muslims ever change your Quran?
No! That would be absurd!
Would Jews and Chroistians change their scriptures?
No! That would be absurd!
The Quran obviously lies about Jews and Christians.

[Alpha]

There is too much archaeological proof for the authenticity of the Biblical scriptures we have now. They were not altered whatsoever. The only way someone would say the Bible was altered is if they have a different belief, period! There is no proof that the Bible is corrupted when it is read in its context either.

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Believer,

Does this make any sense????
Jews and Christians love their scriptures like you do.

Does it make sense of the disgusting things that the Jews says about Jesus, eventhough he was sent to them? Does it also make sense, that the Jews killed or attempted to kill the prophets that were sent to them?

These people were rebellious people, and why they say or do the things they do, is beyond me. If you're so interested, ask Omega, to ask God, and hopefully the answer will come to you in that fashion.

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

[Believer]

Yeah, they're crazy, but they love and cherish their scriptures like you and I.

[Lady Fatima]

Peace Believer,

Yeah, they're crazy, but they love and cherish their scriptures like you and I.

Like they loved and cherished the Prophets that were sent to them?

Peace and Blessings be to the Believers

[wryders]

One question to those who preach the corruption of the books:

How can the books have been corrupted, when copies of the old testaments, dating from 100 to 200 years before Jesus (Dead sea scrolls) have been found. Those copies are identical to the old testament as we know it today (King James version) Is it that those people knew the future and decided to change it before Jesus showed up?? Think about it. That argument is weak.....

[wryders]

Oh..and another thing... The books of the old testament were written over a long period of time, and copies of the book were scattered by nomadic tribes and priest accross the mid east region, africa and parts of Europe. Let try to think about those things for a minute:
I imagine a group of people travelling around the globe trying to collect all of those books and change their content...now how much sense does that make? Are we talking about a worlwide conspiracy here? Which is harder to do...change a few hundred (thousand book) accross the world.

Let's just admit for a minute that the conspiracy was true. At what point did it occur? Before Christ? In which case, the jews had the foresight to leave everything in there concerning Christ (Which by the way they did not recognize) but remove everything that concern Mohamed??? Please let's be serious here. Okay, let's move on and assume that they were changed after Christ...Wouldn't the Jews who did not recognize Christ and until this day did not convert to Christianity say something?

Thanks to the dead sea scrolls, we know that if the books were altered, they were altered before (At least 100 years) christ, which leaves us with the worldwide conspiracy theory. Now, i believe that we all have a brain here....HOW IN THE WORLD IS THAT POSSIBLE?? People, please understand that teh Bible is a collection of Books that were written in different periods of times, it was not "given" to one man.

I ask you: Which one is easier: For one man to change one book or for 1000 to change several books and agree upon what should be in it? You do the math.

I believe it is more likely for Mohamed to have been misguided...(that is why he should have checked with the people of the book as he was intructed to do).

[Bushmaster]

Excellent response wryders,

Saved it as a document file in my Faith Docs...

[Light]

wryders - you deserve a glass of milk for that point, I forgot about the (Dead sea scrolls) arguement, it completely slipped my mind, well done!

[oneGOD]

The Old Testament was mostly written in and after captivity except for Dauet.(which was written in the time period of KINGS I and II) and some prophets writtings. The dead sea scrolls were not identical to the current OT, many variations but one have to admit in most cases the meaning is preserved. The jews had their canon setup right before the second destruction of Jerusalem, nothing has really changed after they scattered. However, since the dead sea scrolls are not identical then they are not the word of God because it can't be changed. The dead sea scrolls only proved the variations that existed when writing the jewish canon, different people and different authors. Since alot of errors and conradictions exist in the OT it is only a testament that most of those writings were a human act not inspired by God.

There is a book I would recommend for you to read:

God's scribes : How the Bible became the Bible
Author: Charles Isbell
He's a jewish scholar, I am sure you will learn alot from his book, it's just awesome.

The Quran says that those people wrote most of those books and called it the word of God which I believe is true. And actually, if you want to talk about the concept of God, there is really no difference at all between the God of the OT and the God of the Quran, only christianity deviated from it and attributed human characters to God (Son which is God can't speak for himself which is also a sign of imperfection in God).

I hope it is clear to you that we believe that not everything in the OT is corrupted, but we do believe that the NT is not the word of God at all. We believe that the INJIL(Gospel) was a book given to Jesus. The gospels totally depended on account witnesses (this explains why they never agreed on so many events and what Jesus really said ). Besides, the NT was chosen out of 24,000 documents around 300 AD.

Now proving Muhammad was mentioned in the OT is a different subject here, if you want to discuss it I will be more than happy to.

[Alpha]

Now proving Muhammad was mentioned in the OT is a different subject here, if you want to discuss it I will be more than happy to.

How are we going to prove this when the OT we have now is "corrupt" ? You did say, "The dead sea scrolls were not identical to the current OT." But yet you use the current OT for the prophesies of Muhammed. You are so two-faced. You bash the Bible by using the dead sea scrolls AGAINST us, then you want to use that same exact Bible to prove the Qu'ran? So, in your understanding, you want to use "corruption" to prove the Word of God? Whatever happened to, "if there is one mistake, then it is not the word of God" ? Now it's, "there are mistakes, but not everything is a mistake if it can support the Qu'ran." Make up your mind!

[oneGOD]

Not all of the OT is corrupt, I hate the word corrupt anyway.

[Bushmaster]

So what books are corrupted er... changed? and what books are not changed in the OT or NT?

[Alexei]

Bushmaster, why don't you take a course in arabic language + do not misquote the Qur'anic verses before posting your heresies:

Messengers indeed have been denied before thee, and they were patient under the denial and the persecution till Our succour reached them. There is none to alter the decisions of Allah. Already there hath reached thee (somewhat) of the tidings of the messengers (We sent before). [The Noble Qur'an 6:34]
The verse here talk about how the mesengers who were patient under the denial and persecution of the unbelievers and were awaiting the glad tidings and promise of Allah that He surely gonna make the messengers victorious at the end. Then Allah say that His words which mean His promise to make messengers victorious at the end will never change.


They shall have good news in this world's life and in the hereafter; there is no changing the words of Allah; that is the mighty achievement. [The Noble Qur'an 10:64]
This verse talk about Allah promise about the glad tidings to believers in this life and the life after, then Allah say that His word which mean his promises of the good news can never change.


And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him. [The Noble Qur'an 18:27].
Allah here ask from Muhammad to recite the Noble Qur'an to people and that he has not to hesitate because He promised to protect him from unbelievers and pagans, and His promise to protect him will never change. This promise is fullfilled as we can see in [15:94-95] and [61:9]



Bushmaster, the following is taken from the Holy Bible each Christian has at home. This example is clear as the sun in the middle of the sky at noon on a sunny day, and it does not need to be torn to be understood. Let see how our beloved Christian brothers will respond:

The Pharaoh title in The Noble Qur’an and The Holy Bible: Pharaoh or King???

The Holy Bible uses the title Pharaoh to point to the ruler of Egypt at the time of prophet Abraham (Century 19th BC), and at the time of Joseph (Century 16-17th BC), and at the time of Moses (Century 13th BC). The Holy Bible makes no difference:

According to Genesis, The Holy Bible uses the title Pharaoh 6 times to point to the ruler of Egypt at the time of Abraham:

So Pharaoh summoned Abram. "What have you done to me?" he said. "Why didn't you tell me she was your wife?" [Genesis 12:18]

Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had. [Genesis 12:20]

According to Genesis also, The Holy Bible uses the title Pharaoh 90 times to point to the ruler of Egypt at the time of Joseph:

So Pharaoh sent for Joseph, and he was quickly brought from the dungeon. When he had shaved and changed his clothes, he came before Pharaoh. [Genesis 41:14]

Then Joseph said to Pharaoh, "The dreams of Pharaoh are one and the same. God has revealed to Pharaoh what he is about to do." [Genesis 41:25]

In Exodus, The Holy Bible uses the title Pharaoh 128 times to point to the ruler of Egypt at the time of Moses:

When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian... [Exodus 2:15]

Then the Lord said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet." [Exodus 7:1]

Here we see that the Holy Bible gives the title Pharaoh to all the rulers of Egypt at the time of Abraham, Joseph, and Moses with no difference at all.

The language in The Noble Qur'an is totally different:
The Noble Qur'an gives the ruler of Egypt at the time of Joseph the title KING and not Pharaoh:
According to chapter 12, the title King was used 5 times to point to the ruler of Egypt at the time of Joseph:

The king (of Egypt) said: "I do see (in a vision) seven fat cows, whom seven lean ones devour, and seven green ears of corn, and seven (others) withered. O ye chiefs! expound to me my vision, if it be that ye can interpret visions." [Qur'an 12:43]

They said: "We miss the great beaker of the king; for him who produces it, is (the reward of) a camel-load[4]; I will be bound by it." [Qur'an 12:72]

The Qur'an never once addresses the ruler of Egypt as Pharaoh at the time of Joseph. Instead The Noble Qur'an calls him King.

However, The Noble Qur'an always uses the title Pharaoh to point to the ruler of Egypt at the time of Moses:

Moses said: "O Pharaoh! I am a messenger from the Lord of the Worlds." [Qur'an 7:104]

Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant: they were a people in sin. [Qur'an 10:75]

The Noble Qur'an addresses the ruler of Egypt at the time of Moses as Pharoah 93 times. The Qur'an never once addresses the ruler of Egypt as King at the time of Moses.

King or Pharaoh???
This simple difference has a great impact about the origin of The Noble Qur'an and The Holy Bible:

“Pharaoh (Egyptian Great House), name originally used by the ancient Egyptians for the palace of their king. Beginning in the 18th Dynasty (1550-1307 BC) it was applied to the king himself”. (“Pharaoh”, Encyclopaedia Encarta CD 2001).


“from Egyptian per-aa (great house), originally, the royal palace in ancient Egypt; the word came to be used as a synonym for the Egyptian king under the New Kingdom starting in the 18th Dynasty, 1539-1292 BC. (Pharaoh, Encyclopaedia Britannica CD 99, Standard Edition © 1994-1999 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc).


“From the New Kingdom onward the title pharaoh, from an Egyptian word meaning (the royal palace), was given to the kings of ancient Egypt”. (Pharaoh, The Academic American Encyclopaedia, (Electronic Version), Copyright © 1995 Grolier, Inc., Danbury, CT).


“Pharaoh (Egypt. Great house), name originally used by the ancient Egyptians for the palace of their king. Beginning in the 18th Dynasty (1570-1293 BC) it was applied to the king himself”. (Pharaoh, The Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopaedia, © 1995 Funk & Wagnalls Corporation, Infopedia 2.0, SoftKey Multimedia Inc).


“Pharaoh, the title of the kings of Egypt until 323 BC. In the Egyptian language the word Pharaoh means (great house). This word was originally used to describe the palace of the king. Around 1500 BC this term was applied to the king”. (Herbert Lockyer, Sr., General Editor, F.F. Bruce et al., Consulting Editors, "Pharaoh", Nelson’s Illustrated Bible Dictionary, 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers).


In his book “Egyptian Grammar: Being an Introduction to the Study of Hieroglyphs”, 1957, 3rd Edition (rev.), Oxford, p. 75", Egyptologist Sir Alan Gardiner (1879-1963) mentions that the title Pharaoh was used for the first time to point to the ruler of Egypt at the 18th dynasty, precisely in the reign of AMENHOTEP IV (ruler of Egypt between 1353 and 1335 BC).


The word "Pharaoh" originally referred to the palace rather than the king himself. The word was used by the writers of the Old Testament and has since become a widely adopted title for all the Kings of Egypt. However, the Egyptians did not call their ruler "Pharaoh" until the 18th Dynasty (c.1552 - 1295 BC). In the language of the hieroglyphs, "Pharaoh" was first used to refer to the king during the reign of AMENHOTEP IV (c.1353-1335 BC).

We know that such a designation was correct in the time of Moses, but the use of the title Pharaoh in the time of Joseph and Abraham is an anachronism. It's like saying that Julius Czar used the phone or Napoleon took the plane!!!

The Biblical writers composed their texts under the influences of the knowledge of their time, when the king of Egypt was usually designated as "Pharaoh". They thought that the ruler of Egypt was always called Pharaoh!!! (Still we still find some people who keep telling us that The Holy Bible is inspired by God).

The situation is entirely different in the Noble Qur'an. For the ruler of Egypt at the time of Joseph, the Qur'an uses the title "King"; he is never once addressed as Pharaoh. As for the ruler who ruled during the time of Moses, the Qur'an repeatedly calls him Pharaoh.

These facts were unknown at the time of the Qur'anic Revelation. At the time of the Qur'anic Revelation, the only source of knowledge of the religious past was the Bible. From the time of the Old Testament to the Qur'an, the only document mankind possessed on these ancient stories was the Bible itself. Furthermore, the knowledge of the Old Egyptian hieroglyphs had been totally forgotten, and no one could read them until the 19th century AD.

If there was no human knowledge in existence at the time, then from where did the Muhammad obtain this information?

And thus (it is) that We have sent down the Book to thee. So the People of the Book believe therein, as also do some of these (pagan Arabs): and none but Unbelievers reject our signs. And thou (Muhammad) wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted. Nay, here are Signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.
Yet they say: "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The signs are indeed with God: and I am indeed a clear Warner."
And is it not enough for them that we have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe. Say: "Enough is God for a witness between me and you: He knows what is in the heavens and on earth. And it is those who believe in vanities and reject God, that will perish (in the end)." [Qur'an 29:47-52]



Alexei