Once saved always saved?

[Omega]

So, Once saved always saved? What di you think?

I have backslidden many a times, but the Lord lifteth me up with his right hand and restores my soul.

[Alpha]

God already knows whos names are written in the Lambs book of life. So I would say yes, once saved always saved. If you abandoned Christianity, or if you say you believe and keep on sinning willingly, then your name might not be in the book of life in the first place. So when it comes to once saved always saved, it is true, but only God knows.

[mike england]

God has a large ring with you and him inside,
you may turn your back on him from time to time but you will always remain in that ring.
thanks
mike E

[VSteven509]

I figure, if you were'nt saved, what force would pull you back? When I first really went to Church with my realitives, it was ok, but just like many mysterious stories, my story was this:

I go to church, like it for a while, then I stop, and a while after that, I become a die-hard CHRISTIAN HATER. I used to HATE Christians because I thought they were weak, I even got to the point where I did'nt believe in God. But after belief after wrong belief, my grandfather has a heart attack a few months ago, my Grandma comes over to the Hospital and has me born again. I thought I had some REALLY good points against the bible, things that I thought were contradictions. And when I try to use those points, she KILLED them ALL with Biblical comebacks. So she convinced me to try and read the Bible, I got the New Testement.

So after I start reading the Bible, I get mad at God a few times, wishing I did'nt have to go by anyones rules, but wishing I could just depart from him and make my own would were I can do anything I want and not sin.

But it was'nt long before I felt a little loose, I actualy WANTED to confess things that I have in my mind, and that's what made me come here.

And ever since my confession about masterbation, and you (Omega) talking to me, it clicked me ALL THE WAY INTO CHRISTIANITY.

I have been a Christian ever since, and i'm glad that my grandma had me born again.

I have slipped, but the power ALLWAYS pulls me back, like a magnet! God has more power than Satan, ESPECIALY if you have been born again, and made that commitment.

From Christian, to Christian Hater, to godless, to Pegan, and now Christian again --- That's the POWER of love!

[LindaBee2]

"Once saved, always saved" is true for those of us who endure.

for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

But apostates do lose their salvation.

HEBREWS 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

HEBREWS 10:26-31
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sin is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[VSteven509]

I fall into sin sometimes, the problem is, I even know it, but I have to grow to learn to resist temptation, and Jesus said that he would forgive all sins, past, present, and future, unless we Blasphemise the Holy Spirit.

But we have to confess those sins, and my confession is, I can't control myself sometimes, I "sow of my own flesh" lets say. I need to figure out a sure fire way to quit forever, I know that Jesus did'nt die on the cross for me to mess around.

See, i'm not as strong (spiritualy) as Jesus, it takes a little time for me to grow against temptation, but it only works if God helps me, and he helps me.

[mike england]

And ever since my confession about masterbation, and you (Omega) talking to me, it clicked me ALL THE WAY INTO CHRISTIANITY.

huh

[beads]

"Once saved, always saved" is true for those of us who endure.

for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

You say "For those of us...." How do you know you will endure? Because of this promise, right? "Everyone born of God will endure and overcome." Well, it's the same thing for everyone else who is born of God - they will endure. There's nothing said about those who are born of God that don't endure because that can't happen.

You quote Hebrews 6:4-6, but drop down and take a look at vs. 9

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Though the writer speaks of a falling away by believers in 4-6, he turns around and says that this is not something that can possibly happen because apostasy is not something that accompanies salvation.

[VSteven509]

"Once saved, always saved" is true for those of us who endure.

Quote:
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.


But apostates do lose their salvation.

Quote:
HEBREWS 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

HEBREWS 10:26-31
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sin is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

So if I was born again, as I claim to be already, and I sinned while I even know it's a sin, I will definetly go to hell? Like, no chance to repent and ask to be forgiven? I did'nt start out clean, and I can't become a complete non-sinner by the snap of my own finger, it is like quiting smoking, it takes some patients and enduring, but when the result of full repentence comes true, then whatever has been done should'nt even matter anymore. And I thank Omega for reminding me that I am not beyond the grace of god (I have'nt commited blasphemy against the spirit), and because of that, I think I still have a chance to completely repent and ask for god to forgive me for all I done that was wrong. I KNOW I can still repent, I see Christ moving in my heart, and NOBODY is gonna take that way from me by saying things that crush the feelings of hope, NOBODY! And unless I die before the day I have cleaned my act, it WILL happen, if God can predict things many many years in advance, and say to humans that they have 120 years to mend their ways, I choose to believe in HOPE and not in hell. Satan probably WANTS us to think we are surely going to hell so that we decide to forget gods laws and advice and go on doing whatever we want til we die.

I FEEL in my heart that there is hope, and the Holy Spirit still does convict me of sin, and I still want to be a Christian, and the fact that I was born again happend, and I'm trying to repent, so I think I should rather look forward to the days of walking with God, and not giving up.

I look forward to seeing the Kingdom of God, and if God will it, I WILL be there, but for now, got some spiritual works to do on myself, to clean my own act!


GOD BLESS!

- VSteven509

[LindaBee2]

There's a difference between backsliding and apostasy. From what I understand, apostasy is willfully and unremorsefully sinning against God. It's the complete abandonment of your faith.

I think that a backslider, meanwhile, will sin against God and -- after being chastised -- will repent and seek forgiveness and help for whatever sin they're dealing with. I compare it to trying to climb up a hill that's covered with loose rocks. At one point, you're doing great. The next, you stumble and start to slide back down, injuring yourself along the way. And then you reach up and latch onto something sturdy, and continue to make your climb.

I meant no disrespect and I didn't mean to say that you're going to Hell. I should've been more clear about what I was trying to say, and I apologize.

[VSteven509]

OH! Good analisis, so basicaly, a person might slide back from loose rocks and compensate and keep going, but the one who willingly goes BACK DOWN the hill knowing it's wrong and knowing that it's a sinful rejection of the lord commits apostasy? Makes much sense, infact, it kinda like heaven is the top of the hill, and hell is the bottom, thanks for replying, sorry if I offended you

God Bless!

- VSteven509

[beads]

Ummm..... feel like my post kinda got ignored.
Did anyone take a look at Heb. 6:9?

[VSteven509]

Ya, I read it, but I think my first post on this thread was about something I had mistakenly thought, I was concentrating on that.

[beads]

No problem. Just wanted to make sure my comments weren't completely skipped over!

[LindaBee2]

Here's what I found in the Wycliffe's Bible Encyclopedia.

APOSTASY. (Gr. apostasia, "a falling away or defection from the faith").

While the Gr. word is used only twice in the NT (Acts 21:21; II Thess 2:3), it is found in the LXX several times, as in Josh 22:22, to express rebellion of the people from God, and in II Chr 29:19 of the casting away of the holy temple vessels.

Apostasy is possible only for nominal Christians. In the case of real believers, the Scripture declares that God either brings them back through suffering and chastisement (I Cor 11:29-30; I Cor 5:5) or removes them through death (I Cor 11:30). In the case of apostates, though He may allow them to remain, He withdraws from them all possibility of repentance and salvation (Heb 6:1-6; 10:26-31).

BACKSLIDING. A term used in the OT by God of Israel, particularly in Jeremiah, where the nation is spoken of as backsliding children (Jer 3:22), a backsliding daughter (Jer 31:22), and in Hosea where He calls Israel a backsliding heifer (Hos 4:16). Children who get into evil and a daughter who chooses a life of sin are familiar examples to people of all ages, and a backsliding heifer is a particularly expressive term to any farmer to portray stubbornness.

In the OT, backsliding speaks of a return or turn back to the old life of sin and the worship of false gods; in this day, a return to a former life of sin and spiritual idolatry, that is, to materialism and the worship of things rather than God. As used today in modern religious parlance, the term refers to the spiritual state of individual Christians.

The view that the backslider who though once saved has become lost again, fails to see that the Christian's standing must be distinguished from his state. Positionally, that is, as far as his standing is concerned, he is in Christ and eternally justified. He is safe against anything and anyone taking away his eternal life, since both Christ and the Father hold him in their hands (Jn 10:28-29). And yet the Christian's state is subject to change, since he is still imperfect and able either to progress or regress. The Christian's standing is spoken of in Col 2:10-13 as a perfection equal to Christ's; his state (I Cor 3:1-4; Rom 7), as one in danger of a constant degeneration into carnality. Backsliding invokes chastening from God (Heb 12:6; I Cor 11:32), and results in loss of rewards (II Cor 5:10; I Cor 3:15), loss of fellowship (I Jn 1:7), removal from a place of usefulness (I Cor 5:5; 11:30), and sometimes even calls for removal from this life by death (I Cor 11:30).

[kolaz]

So, Once saved always saved? What di you think?

I have backslidden many a times, but the Lord lifteth me up with his right hand and restores my soul.

I Corinth 6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11: And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Acts:16:30: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe what?

1Cor:15:14: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

[tuppence]

If you are saved, you are saved. Period.

If you are born again into the family of God, you cannot be unborn.

Nor can you walk away, for you do not have the heart that would allow you to walk away. You have a new heart. That is what being born again means.

LindaBee2, if our salvation depends upon us enduring, then none of us would be saved. Our salvation depends upon Christ and Him alone. What we run the race for, what we endure for, is His approval, not His acceptance. Not everyone will hear "Well done, good and faithful servant" even though they be believers.

If you look at Matthew 5:19, you will find that even those who break the law and TEACH others to do so may end up in heaven, but "will be called least."

So it is not a matter of sinning at all, for all sins have been atoned for on the Cross. It is a matter of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, and this is not simply intellectual acknowledgement, for as James says, even the demons go that far! In the Bible, 'believe' means a change of direction for your life -- you follow what you believe in.

[Aineo]

I hate to be a fly in the ointment but:

Matthew 24:4-14
"See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. NAS

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
NAS


1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS

How can you fall away from something you never had in the first place?

APOSTASY

APOSTASY; APOSTATE

(a-pos'-ta-si), (a-pos'-tat) (he apostasia, "a standing away from"): I.e. a falling away, a withdrawal, a defection. Not found in the English Versions of the Bible, but used twice in the New Testament, in the Greek original, to express abandonment of the faith.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

APOSTASY

APOSTASY. A "falling away." The common classical use of the word has to do with a political defection (Genesis 14:4, LXX; 2 Chronicles 13:6, LXX; Acts 5:37). In the NT its more usual meaning is that of a religious defection (21:21; 4:1; 3:12). This is called "apostasy from the faith" (apostasia a fide): a secession from the church, and a disowning of the name of Christ. Some of its peculiar characteristics are mentioned, such as seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, hypocritical lying, a seared conscience, forbidding of marriage and of meats, a form of godliness without the power (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:5).
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

APOSTASY

APOSTASY

A falling away from the faith. The nation of Israel fell into repeated backslidings (Jeremiah 5:6, RSV). The prophet Jeremiah predicted the judgment of God upon such disloyalty: "Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will reprove you" (Jeremiah 2:19, RSV).
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

[tuppence]

Aineo, there are many who will fall away. Not from being born again, but from the faith they profess with words but not with their hearts nor their lives. As John writes: "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us."

Those who are in truth born again are and will always be the children of God by adoption through Jesus Christ.

Apostacy is what we, as men, see as falling away from apparent salvation. But we cannot judge men's hearts, and the fact that there are apostates shows clearly that God not only knows their hearts, but allows them to finally show their true selves to the rest of us.

But as for me, I know that nothing, not even my own self, can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus. I am born again in Him, and although I may occasionally have spiritual immature temper tantrums, I am His, and His forever.

[Aineo]

Here is the full article on apostasy from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

APOSTASY
APOSTASY; APOSTATE
(a-pos'-ta-si), (a-pos'-tat) (he apostasia, "a standing away from"): I.e. a falling away, a withdrawal, a defection. Not found in the English Versions of the Bible, but used twice in the New Testament, in the Greek original, to express abandonment of the faith. Paul was falsely accused of teaching the Jews apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21); he predicted the great apostasy from Christianity, foretold by Jesus (Matthew 24:10-12) which would precede "the day of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 2:2). Apostasy, not in name but in fact, meets scathing rebuke in the Epistle of Jude, e.g. the apostasy of angels (Jude 6). Foretold, with warnings, as sure to abound in the latter days (1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 2 Peter 3:17). Causes of: persecution (Matthew 24:9-10); false teachers (Matthew 24:11); temptation (Luke 8:13); worldliness (2 Timothy 4:4); defective knowledge of Christ (1 John 2:19); moral lapse (Hebrews 6:4-6); forsaking worship and spiritual living (Hebrews 10:25-31); unbelief (Hebrews 3:12). Biblical examples: Saul (1 Samuel 15:11); Amaziah (2 Chronicles 25:14,27); many disciples (John 6:66); Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:19-20); Demas (2 Timothy 4:10). For further illustration see Deuteronomy 13:13; Zephaniah 1:4-6; Galatians 5:4; 2 Peter 2:20-21.
"Forsaking Jehovah" was the characteristic and oft-recurring sin of the chosen people, especially in their contact with idolatrous nations. It constituted their supreme national peril. The tendency appeared in their earliest history, as abundantly seen in the warnings and prohibitions of the laws of Moses (Exodus 20:3-4,23; Deuteronomy 6:14; 11:16). The fearful consequences of religious and moral apostasy appear in the curses pronounced against this sin, on Mount Ebal, by the representatives of six of the tribes of Israel, elected by Moses (Deuteronomy 27:13-26; 28:15-68). So wayward was the heart of Israel, even in the years immediately following the national emancipation, in the wilderness, that Joshua found it necessary to re-pledge the entire nation to a new fidelity to Yahweh and to their original covenant before they were permitted to enter the Promised Land (Joshua 24:1-28). Infidelity to this covenant blighted the nation's prospects and growth during the time of the Judges (Judges 2:11-15; 10:6,10,13; 1 Samuel 12:10). It was the cause of prolific and ever-increasing evil, civic and moral, from Solomon's day to the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. Many of the kings of the divided kingdom apostatized, leading the people, as in the case of Rehoboam, into the grossest forms of idolatry and immorality (1 Kings 14:22-24; 2 Chronicles 12:1). Conspicuous examples of such royal apostasy are Jeroboam (1 Kings 12:28-32); Ahab (1 Kings 16:30-33); Ahaziah (1 Kings 22:51-53); Jehoram (2 Chronicles 21:6,10,12-15); Ahaz (2 Chronicles 28:1-4); Manasseh (2 Chronicles 33:1-9); Amen (2 Chronicles 33:22). See IDOLATRY. Prophecy originated as a Divine and imperative protest against this historic tendency to defection from the religion of Yahweh.
In classical Greek, apostasy signified revolt from a military commander. In the roman catholic church it denotes abandonment of religious orders; renunciation of ecclesiastical authority; defection from the faith. The persecutions of the early Christian centuries forced many to deny Christian discipleship and to signify their apostasy by offering incense to a heathen deity or blaspheming the name of Christ. The emperor Julian, who probably never vitally embraced the Christian faith, is known in history as "the Apostate," having renounced Christianity for paganism soon after his accession to the throne.
An apostate's defection from the faith may be intellectual, as in the case of Ernst Haeckel, who, because of his materialistic philosophy, publicly and formally renounced Christianity and the church; or it may be moral and spiritual, as with Judas, who for filthy lucre's sake basely betrayed his Lord. See exhaustive articles on "Apostasy" in the Jewish Encyclopedia.
DWIGHT MALLORY PRATT
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

You can access it online at http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view. ... ion=Lookup

I can give you modern day examples of men who were born again and then fell away from the true faith and are now teaching heresy as Biblical truth. How can this happen? By quenching the Spirit of truth when circumstances and personal desires are more important than "enduring to the end".

[Berlin Bear]

Hello All, I pray that your birthday celebrations were filled with the joy of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

Once saved always saved, hum, sounds good, makes life easier, keeps you from laying awake nights. But is this truly what the Bible tells us? I would have to refer to a couple of scriptures and ask that they be clarified if indeed, once saved always saved.

1.
Ephesians 6:10-18 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and request. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

2.
1 Peter 5:6-10 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that He may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on Him because he cares for you. Be self controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. And the god of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will Himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

3.
Philippians 3:12-14 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Now if I may, I would like to present to you a scripture from the Old Testament,
Ezekiel 33:17-20 “Yet your country men say, “The way of the Lord is not just.” But it is their way that is not just. If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so. Yet, O house of Israel, you say, “The way of the lord is not just.” But I will judge each of you according to his own ways.”

And in closing;
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.”

[GM]

Omega, we meet again...

Yes, once saved, always saved.

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28.

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29.


God doesn't let go of you.... ( any Chirstian).... can let go of God and walk in the Ways of this world. slipping away from God, His Word and His Ways.

Lets get the word "Backsliding" in the correct definition, shall we?

Backsliding means: you never front slid in the beginning.



As for Christians..........
Christians CAN and get caught up in the ways of this world so much that the last thing on their "to do list" is to ACKNOWLEDGE Jehovah God. & Pray to Him, obsorb themselves into HIS Word. and Walk in HIS Ways and no longer their own.

They can be forgiven....

Remember........
"For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief." Proverbs 24:16.

The word, " just" in Proverbs 24:16. Means: Righteous

A Chirstian can fall.......but can sincerely ask Lord Jesus for forgiveness & ( with Lord Jesus Help) get right back up again and dust their selves off and keep on a truckin. { Righteously } not letting that down fall become another mistake.

Show Jesus is God and Jesus is Good IN All Ways.

Keep the Faith and God Bless ...
GM

[Aineo]

Matthew 24:3-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.
NAS

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. NAS

Once saved always saved is a modern doctrine not found in Scripture. Jesus Himself warned that future believers would fall away from the faith; a statement echoed by Paul.

[GM]

mmmmmm...... well, I best not say nothing any further on this....... Aineo might get offended and Kick me off of these boards for good.

[Aineo]

mmmmmm...... well, I best not say nothing any further on this....... Aineo might get offended and Kick me off of these boards for good.

The only thing that will get you kicked off this board is continued violation of our Forum Rules, which you agreed to abide by when you registered. I suggest you review all our Forum Rules.

What no OSAS adherent has been able to do is void what both Jesus and Paul taught concerning believers falling away from the faith, which then results in sarcastic comments like yours.

[GM]

Aineo,

The only thing that will get you kicked off this board is continued violation of our Forum Rules,

GM: Aineo, with all do respect.....what is your problem, I Never violatied ANYTHING.....

What no OSAS adherent has been able to do is void what both Jesus and Paul taught concerning believers falling away from the faith, which then results in sarcastic comments like yours.

GM: Just knock it off and leave me alone, all right?

If your a Christian, then learn how to forgive. you obviously were offended by my post on different bible versions. with all due respect Aineo, get a grip..... your badge from your admin job is going to your head. abnd THATS no way to Present Christ to the people. and you know it...
\
Now, Please leave me alone,ok. I'm goingto pray for you.

[Roknrol]

OH! Good analisis, so basicaly, a person might slide back from loose rocks and compensate and keep going, but the one who willingly goes BACK DOWN the hill knowing it's wrong and knowing that it's a sinful rejection of the lord commits apostasy?

Forgive me for the intrusion, please I'm not a Biblical expert, but I've heard (basically) the same thing before. I know it's a *little* bit off topic, but I think it's close enough for government work

When I left the Christian faith, I did so knowing that according to Christian Dogma it was wrong. Does that make me an Apostate? The reason I have to ask, is that for me, the Pagan path opened my eyes and my heart. It opened my mind to experience beautiful wonderful things that I had never experienced as a Christian. My lifestyle has not changed much - I'm an occasional drinker, a smoker (which I'd like to quit simply for the health benefits), and if anything I'm more honest and caring than I was as a Christian. Don't get me wrong - it wasn't the Christian faith that made me less caring - it was that the Pagan path taught me things that Christianity could not.

I'm a believer in that good people will get what's coming to them, regardless of faith. I realize that this goes against the Bible, however I'm counting on the God/dess(s) being understanding enough to know who and what I am. Whoah...way off-topic...sorry...

My question is: If leaving the Christian faith "knowing it's wrong" makes you an Apostate - what is it if you leave the Christian faith "knowing that it's right"?

[Aineo]

Roknrol, The Jesus Christ Forums :: Christians Only forums are for Christians only. Please respect our forum categories.

However, to answer your question if leaving the faith makes you an apostate the answer is yes.

[Aineo]

Aineo,

The only thing that will get you kicked off this board is continued violation of our Forum Rules,

GM: Aineo, with all do respect.....what is your problem, I Never violatied ANYTHING.....

What no OSAS adherent has been able to do is void what both Jesus and Paul taught concerning believers falling away from the faith, which then results in sarcastic comments like yours.

GM: Just knock it off and leave me alone, all right?

If your a Christian, then learn how to forgive. you obviously were offended by my post on different bible versions. with all due respect Aineo, get a grip..... your badge from your admin job is going to your head. abnd THATS no way to Present Christ to the people. and you know it...
\
Now, Please leave me alone,ok. I'm goingto pray for you.

If there is one attitude that will get you warned and then banned it is self-pity and assuming that someone is after you. OSAS is a minor doctrine held by a minority of Christians. So I suggest you get over yourself and take a long hard look at our Forum Rules, especially #4 and #7. Any post you make on a public forum is fair game for a response, and if you cannot address Scripture then say so since not all Christians accept your OSAS doctrine.

[LindaBee2]

To the person who was sarcastic and rude to Aineo: Either stop pulling that nonsense, or just stop posting. We don't have time to deal with your sarcasm and rudeness, and there is no excuse for behaving the way you are. I know you dislike Aineo, but take your issues with him to private messages and leave us out of it.

Thanks!

[GM]

LindaBee2, Go right ahead and think I was the rude one in this case..... I really don't care.

I never gave Aineo any reason to lock my artical..... It was Aineo that got offended and couldn't handle the truth.no more,no less. (period).

Aineo what he/she wanted to say and locked my last article/comment and Never gave me a chance to defind myself..

(peroid). no more , no less.

And I'm not going to get into a argument with anyone because of this....
because its not worth it......


I will apologize If I did post my article on a fourm that was not related to the topics. But this is The Christian Debate Fourm.
Its a one sided thing....... Aineo is the Admin.. Well, we will see who has the last say on Judgement day.


LindaBee2, "We don't have time to deal with your sarcasm and rudeness, and there is no excuse for behaving the way you are. I know you dislike Aineo,"

GM: LindaBee, theres no "sarcasm" involved... no rudeness, and I have no reason to dislike Aineo.... thats your opinion.

So Please Stop trying to Bait me ok. Thanks.
Have a nice day every one and God Bless..

[Aineo]

GM, how this board is managed is not your concern. How you conduct yourself on this board is your one and only concern. You were given a valid reason for why your thread was locked. You were also asked to review our Forum Rules and abide by those rules as you agreed to when you registered. So far you have chosen to ignore several of our posted rules and have been warned in public forums and by PM. Apparently you have decided you are a free agent who does not have to abide by an agreement and violate the following:

1. Be aware of forum categories. We discuss a wide range of topics, which are grouped by subject. Keep posts within the proper category. We reserve the right to move any message posted in the wrong category without notifying the original author.

4. No slandering other posters or dealing in personalities. Some posters hold strong opinions about topics under discussion however, resorting to name calling or derogatory remarks aimed on any poster will not be tolerated. Take you personal differences to emails or private messages. Posting private communications or alluding to such communications on any public forum will be grounds for deactivation of your account and the deletion of your post.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/rules.php

You have also totally ignored this one posted by the man who owns this message board:

Moderators have final say. jesus-christ-forums.com administrators and moderators reserve the right to edit, relocate and/or remove any message, at any time, for any reason. Consider all editing decisions final. If you don't agree with a decision, you may discuss it with the moderator who made the judgment in private. If you cannot reach resolution with the Moderator in private, contact the site administrator via e-mail (http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/email/), explaining the entire situation, with all relevant links/excerpts/emails, etc. Under no circumstance attempt to start a 'debate' about specific moderation decisions in a public forum.

This is your final warning, abide by the rules you agreed to abide by or you account will be terminated.

[x_m_m_x_]

Aineo,
Hello. I'm certainly not trying to sound smart or anything, but I think you need to study your bible. Any professing christian who believes you can be saved and then be unsaved, lost and then found and then lost again, obviously is basing their salvation on something he or she is doing. Paul said in Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." You cannot save yourself, and you cannot unsave yourself, and God is not an "indian giver" so to speak, he doesn't give us the free gift of eternal life and then take it away just because we mess up. If we were to lose our salvation, who's fault would it be? It would be Jesus's fault, and why? because we are his workmanship as it says in verse 10 of Ephsians 2, we are the clay and he is the potter and he won't mess up.Only professing christians who rely on their church memberships, their baptism, their good works, they have christianity in their heads, but not in their hearts etc., are like a dog that goes back to their vomit and like a sow that goes back to wallowing in the mire as it says in 2 Peter 2:22. Nowhere in the bible does it call God's people a dog or a sow, we are his "sheep" and he is our Shepherd. Jesus said in John chapter 10 that he gives us eternal life, well, it wouldn't be eternal if we could lose it, and he says that we shall never perish, "never" means never, and he said that no one can pluck us out of his hand or his Father's hand, and no Aineo, you can't pluck yourself out of his hand either, for he is much stronger than us. We are "KEPT by the power of God" {1 Peter 1:5}, and we are "SEALED unto the day of redemption" {Ephesians 4:30}. We don't go from being sealed to unsealed, we don't go from being saved to unsaved, we don't go from being a new creature back to being an old creature.

If we sin, and we will, because christians are not perfect,God will not take away our salvation, but he will chasten us as it says in Hebrews 12:6. If a professing christian decides to walk away from God and not be a christian anymore, or if he or she back slides so far as to go back and stay back n the world for any length of time, then he or she was never a true born again christian to begin with, because Jesus Christ owns us lock, stock, and barrel, "For ye are bought with a price....." {1 Cor. 6:20, 7:23} we are his, and 'he cannot deny himself" {2 Tim. 2:13} Hebrews chapter 6:4-6 is not talking about christians losing salvation. Those verses refer to people who had TASTED of the heavenly gift, the key word is "taste", they tasted it, but spit it out so to speak saying "no I don't want to get saved, I'm not ready". They were enlightened by the truth and felt Holy Spirit conviction, but said "no". They had christianity in their heads, they can quote scripture after scripture, but they haven't got it in their hearts so they are still lost. I once heard some one say that that refers to the Jews who were still going by the OT law instead of trusting in the gospel of Christ, They were enlightened by the gospel but rejected it, and besides, there is such a thing as saying 'no" once too often, and then God will harden a person's heart so that it will be impossible to get saved. I know that Heb. chapter 6 is not refering to christians losing salvation.

Some people say that Judas lost his salvation when he betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, well, Judas didn't lose his salvation because he never had it, Jesus called Judas a devil in John 6:70, and the "son of perdition" in John 17:12. In order for the scripture to be fulfilled about Jesus being betrayed, he pick Judas, and Jesus said that in verse 12 of John 17, so Juda was never saved. Many a so called christian back slide but if they were truly born again, they will come back, probably through chastening, and some people back slide and don't return to the Lord simply because they were never born again in the first place, in other words, they back slid because they never front slid. In Matt.chapter 7 when the phoney christians say, "Lord,Lord,have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Jesus will say, "I NEVER knew you". It doesn't say, "I used to know you but not anymore", no, they were never saved, so they didn't lose salvation.

One more verse just came to mind, 1 John 3:9, "......his seed REMAINETH in him...." Oh, one more came to mind, John 5:24, "Verly, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath EVERLASTING life, and shall NOT come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life". John 3:15 says 'ETERNAL life', and verse 16 has "EVERLASTING life". OSAS is indeed biblical Aineo.

[Aineo]

Aineo,
Hello. I'm certainly not trying to sound smart or anything, but I think you need to study your bible. Any professing christian who believes you can be saved and then be unsaved, lost and then found and then lost again, obviously is basing their salvation on something he or she is doing.

This is all I read of your post since you are assuming a lot and if anyone needs to study your Bible it is you. I do not believe or teach that one can be saved, fall away or become apostate and then be saved again. You get one "bite at the apple" as per Hebrews:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. KJV

Jesus and Paul taught:

Matthew 24:10-11

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. KJV

2 Thessalonians 2:3

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
KJV


1 Timothy 4:1
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; KJV

The word translated "offended" in Matthew also means "apostasy". The Greek word translated "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians is "apostasia". OSAS contradicts what is taught in Scripture and is a doctrine first proposed by Calvin who was instrumental in translating the Geneva Bible, a translation you trash along with all other translations except the KJ by denigrating the translators.

OSAS also ignores:

Revelation 3:5

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. KJV

What OSAS totally ignores are all the promises that contain one little word and that word is "if".

The word of God does not contradict itself, however doctrines of men contradict God's truth. and OSAS contradicts what is taught in Scripture when you take the whole word of God into account.

[Aineo]

Here are a couple of the "if's" ignored by OSAS:

John 8:31

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; KJV

John 8:52

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. KJV

1 John 2:24-25

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
KJV

No man or external power can snatch or remove us from the hands of our Savior; but we by choice can walk away from His word and His truth for many reasons. Living a Christian life is not easy and anyone who says it is easy is living in self-deception. What is so difficult about living a Christian life?

Matthew 16:24-28

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
KJV

[beads]

Here are a couple of the "if's" ignored by OSAS

These "ifs" can be, and are elsewhere in Scripture, translated "since".

It's not that I choose to ignore these Scriptures, it's just that I choose not to add extra meaning to them when that extra meaning is not written there.

"If [since] ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed". I take this at face value. If a Christian continues in Christ's word then he is His disciple. You take this to mean that if someone who once did continue, then stops continuing, then they have stop being a disciple (lost salvation). But that meaning is not written there, nor can it be implied, because it contradicts teachings of other Scriptures (i.e. all of the "I give you eternal life" arguments you've heard before).

You hang your whole argument on one idea - apostacy. Have you ever considered that perhaps apostacy as it is taught in Scripture is a concept that applies to the church as an entity, not the believer as an individual? And why is it that apostacy is always given in Scripture as a hypothetical situation (see Heb. 6:9), and is never shown by specific example (i.e. "Look at Bill over there. He's turned away from Jesus and has lost his salvation.")?

[Aineo]

NT:1437
ean;
I. a conditional particle if, in case,
It is connected:
1. with the subjunctive
a. with the subjunctive present: Matthew 6:22
b. with the subjunctive aorist, Matthew 4:9
c. irregularly, which is also a particle of time
d. sometimes when the particle is used with the subjunctive aorist the futurity of a thing is not so much affirmed as imagined, 1 Corinthians 12:15
2. is connected also with the indicative
a. with the future indicative, in meaning akin, as is well known, to the subjunctive: Matthew 18:19
b. with the present indicative: Luke 6:34
3. ean joined with other particles
a. ean de kai, but if also, but even if,
b. ean kai: Galatians 6:1
c. ean mee, if not, unless, except; with the subjunctive present: Matthew 10:13; Luke 13:3
d. eanper if only, if indeed: Hebrews 3:6
e. ean te ... ean te, whether ... or: Romans 14:8
f. kan for kai ean
II. connect ean, with relative pronouns and adverbs instead of the potential particle an, Matthew 5:19; 10:14
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 2000 by Biblesoft)

The Greek word "ean" or "ein" is never translated "since" in the Bible, however "ean" (ein) can be translated "except", "unless", and etc.

It's not that I choose to ignore these Scriptures, it's just that I choose not to add extra meaning to them when that extra meaning is not written there.

I have not added anything to what is taught in Scripture and Scripture contains a lot of conditional promises.

You hang your whole argument on one idea - apostacy. Have you ever considered that perhaps apostacy as it is taught in Scripture is a concept that applies to the church as an entity, not the believer as an individual? And why is it that apostacy is always given in Scripture as a hypothetical situation (see Heb. 6:9), and is never shown by specific example (i.e. "Look at Bill over there. He's turned away from Jesus and has lost his salvation.")?

It may appear I hang my whole argument on a couple of verses only because OSAS advocates have yet to respond to what Scripture teaches concerning apostasy, which must occur before the Lord returns. As to examples of apostates in Scripture:

John 6:66-71

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 Jesus said therefore to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" 68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 "And we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him. NAS

1 Timothy 1:18-20

18 This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may fight the good fight, 19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered over to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme. NAS

2 Timothy 4:9-10

9 Make every effort to come to me soon; 10 for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; NAS

Jesus choose Judas and Judas choose the world.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
NAS

[beads]

The Greek word "ean" or "ein" is never translated "since" in the Bible, however "ean" (ein) can be translated "except", "unless", and etc.

Fine. I don't know Greek. Thanks for the correction.

I have not added anything to what is taught in Scripture....

Ah, but you have. The Scripture only says that if one continues in the Word, then one is a disciple (i.e. continuing in the Word is evidence that one is a disciple). What you are saying is that if one does not continue in the Word, then one is not a disciple. Your statement is the inversion of the original statement, and if you ask any logician, they will tell you that a statement and its inverse are not logical equivalents. Thus, for you to present an inverse of a Scriptural statement as just as much inspired as the original statement, you are adding something into the Word that was not there before.

It may appear I hang my whole argument on a couple of verses only because OSAS advocates have yet to respond to what Scripture teaches concerning apostasy, which must occur before the Lord returns.

And I reply that apostacy is taking place in many churches today. Catholicism is a good example of that.

As to examples of apostates in Scripture: John 6:66-71 .... Jesus choose Judas and Judas choose the world.

You have no proof that Judas was ever saved. God chooses people for many different reason. But just because He chooses to use someone does not mean that they are saved. God chose to use Pharoah, but was he saved?

1 Timothy 1:18-20

Where does it say that Hymenaeus and Alexander lost their salvation? I only see that they were turned over to Satan so that they would be taught not to blaspheme. This was done so that they could come to repentance. But according to your favorite verse over in Heb 6, if they lost their salvation, then there is no way they could ever come again to repentance. So the only way they could be taught not to blaspheme is if they were never saved in the first place, or if they were just backslidden and needed to repent of sins, not to become saved again.

2 Timothy 4:9-10

Again, you have no proof that Demas was ever saved to begin with, nor do you have any proof that, if he was saved, his choice to desert Paul caused him to lose his salvation.

[4givn4evr]

OSAS is a minor doctrine held by a minority of Christians.

Adherents (like myself, Calvin, Presbyterians, and a number of reformed churches) tend to take it quite seriously though. For us, the 'loss' of salvation calls into question the sovereignty of God.

Predetermination is not a minor controversy.

Beads:

You have no proof that Judas was ever saved. God chooses people for many different reasons. But just because He chooses to use someone does not mean that they are saved.

Amen, brother.

[Aineo]

4givn4evr, I was raised in the Presbyterian Church so I am well aware of what Knox (the founder of Presbyterianism) taught and believed. Beads mentioned Catholicism as an example of an apostate church, well the Presbyterian Church USA is another great example. The PCUSA was the primary sponsor of a women's conference that offered prayers to the goddess Sophia (Gnosticisms personification of the Word [wisdom]) in the 1990's. So the actions of the PCUSA deny what even Calvin believed.

As to Demas, Hymenaeus, and Alexander if your interpretation is correct you have examples of the prodigal son. Also how does one learn not to blaspheme and what is blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Beads, you refer to Hebrews 6 as a hypothetical situation with absolutely no proof that the author of Hebrews is speaking hypothetically.

Hebrews 10:32-39

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly, by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners, and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an abiding one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. NAS

However no OSAS proponent has yet to defeat what both Jesus and Paul taught concerning those who will fall away from the faith. You have danced around what is plainly taught in Scripture and that is that some will fall away from faith in Jesus Christ and teach others to do the same.

Revelation 3:1-6
3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:

He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3'Remember therefore what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. 4'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white; for they are worthy. 5'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels. 6'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. ' NAS

Is it your contention that the Lord was speaking hypothetically to the church at Sardis or that this is again the Lord being hypothetical?

Revelation 21:6-8
6 And He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." NAS

Predetermination is not a minor controversy.

I suppose you could appeal to predestination as one reason to teach OSAS, but what does Scripture teach concerning predestination?

Romans 8:26-30

26 And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. NAS

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,

"Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him."
NAS

Ephesians 1:3-12

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8 which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. NAS

If you believe that God has predestined some to destruction then we have a contradiction in Scripture:

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. NAS

The KJ has this:

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. KJV

[4givn4evr]

Sorry for my ignorance regarding that denomination, I belong to PCA and am a fairly new member. I don't know that particular splinter, but it doesn't mean I or all Presbyterians believe in the kind of heresy you described.

For the record I am defined by my personal relationship with my savior, not my relationship with religion. My assumption is the same for you, and in that regard we are much closer as His children, than any false separation created by a particular religiosity or doctrine. Beyond that, I believe wholeheartedly in the Apostle's Creed -- and in Romans 8:26-30. I know you do too.

In advance I apologize for not answering every point, but RL beckons and this post is too long as it is.

I'll address your final point, then try to wade through the rest. When we get into an area of the Lord's "willing"ness we should proceed with caution, lest we blaspheme. The Holocaust was not within God's will, was it? Yet it happened; as believers we realize His omniscience would not allow for His ignorance of a future event, and His love and holiness would not allow Him to PERPETRATE a Holocaust. Even so on an individual level, it is not His will that any should perish. Yet He allows it to be so, and with foreknowledge.

One could argue that if it is not His will that any should perish, then those whom He knows in advance will deny Him should never be born in the first place. We both know we have no rights within that argument - God would answer as He answered Job.

What then of free will? Either He created us with free will, and allows us to exercise our free will, and suffer the consequences, or He doesn't. But how imperfect is our true understanding of free will within this context: either God is Sovereign, or He isn't.

Indeed: 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good TO THOSE WHO LOVE GOD (not, "to everyone"), to those who are CALLED according to His purpose (not, "all of humanity"). 29 For whom He FOREKNEW, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He PREDESTINED, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. NAS

Would he CALL, conform to the image of His Son, justify, and glorify the body of Christ (the invisible church), and the individual believer, if something as frail as a human being's free will could interfere with His ultimate plan for that individual or the body of the Church?

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and (they follow me:) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall ANY MAN pluck them out of my hand." John 10:27,28

Peace.

[4givn4evr]

HE predestined, HE foreknew, HE called, HE justified, HE glorified.

As in all things, HE is the center, not ME. HE saved ME, continues to save, me, justify me, conform me, and in humility and faith I believe HE does it all, not ME.

[Aineo]

HE predestined, HE foreknew, HE called, HE justified, HE glorified.

As in all things, HE is the center, not ME. HE saved ME, continues to save, me, justify me, conform me, and in humility and faith I believe HE does it all, not ME.

What I find interesting concerning OSAS debates is that OSAS advocates will always appeal to their personal experiences as to why they believe in OSAS. Also you have the order wrong; He foreknew and then He predestined. In Scripture predestination is always applied to believers not unbelievers.

The PCA split from the PCUSA in 1973 because the PCUSA had been teaching a social gospel for decades. My great grandfather was a PCUSA minister who denied the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of his seminary education. He attended the Union Theological Seminary in about 1907 and passed away when I was 16.

The Presbyterian Church in America has a strong commitment to evangelism, missionary work at home and abroad, and to Christian education. From its inception, the church has determined its purpose to be “faithful to the Scriptures, true to the reformed faith, and obedient to the Great Commission.”

Organized at a constitutional assembly in December 1973, this church was first known as the National Presbyterian Church but changed its name in 1974 to Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). It separated from the Presbyterian Church in the United States (Southern) in opposition to the long-developing theological liberalism which denied the deity of Jesus Christ and the inerrancy and authority of Scripture. Additionally, the PCA held to the traditional position on the role of women in church offices.

In December 1973, delegates, representing some 260 congregations with a combined communicant membership of over 41,000 that had left the PCUS, gathered at Briarwood Presbyterian Church in Birmingham, Alabama, and organized the National Presbyterian Church, which later became the Presbyterian Church in America. http://www.pcanet.org/general/history.htm

You brought up the Holocaust; have you studied the life of Calvin?

In 1536, a French Protestant, John Calvin, settled in Geneva after having been forced to flee his own Catholic country. Through his teachings and work Calvin managed to take Protestantism to new extremes: over-compensating for the worldly excesses of Catholicism, Calvin and his followers (Calvinists) forbid all forms of entertainment and regulated even the dress of ordinary people. In a fit of ecclesiastical zeal (which has only been equaled by later equally fanatic Muslim nations), dancing, card playing, gambling and other recreations were forbidden in Geneva; those caught breaking these rules were routinely put to death.
http://www.white-history.com/hwr43.htm

As to Romans 8:26-30 this happens to be one of my favorite sections of Romans 8.

Romans 8:26-30

26 And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; 30 and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. NAS

What then of free will? Either He created us with free will, and allows us to exercise our free will, and suffer the consequences, or He doesn't. But how imperfect is our true understanding of free will within this context: either God is Sovereign, or He isn't.

OSAS actually denies "free will" since OSAS teaches once saved we become robots and are unable to choose to live a righteous life as overcomers, which also denies:

Matthew 24:4-14
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. NAS

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. NAS

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS

You cannot fall away from a faith you never had.

[4givn4evr]

Whew, I hardly know where to begin: with the TONE or content of your last post? Am I misreading hostility here or is it the nature of the written word on a forum that makes it seem so?

OSAS actually denies "free will" since OSAS teaches once saved we become robots and are unable to choose to live a righteous life as overcomers

Would you like to revise that, or offer supporting documentation for such an outrageous claim? Your choice. I have not seen the word 'robot' in my catechism.

What I find interesting concerning OSAS debates is that OSAS advocates will always appeal to their personal experiences as to why they believe in OSAS.

I did no such thing, and you took that sentence out of context to make it appear so rather than to respond to the point I was making with it. In case you missed it I will restate: Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, not us. As I said previously, I am defined by my relationship with the person of Christ, not with religiosity or doctrine. And so it must be for every true believer, do you not agree?

You also deliberately ignore my direct statement of faith based upon scripture and the Apostle's Creed, having been offered to you in sincerity and in truth to form a basis for our continued courteous discussion on this matter as believer to believer.

Also you have the order wrong; He foreknew and then He predestined. In Scripture predestination is always applied to believers not unbelievers.

By saying this do you assume God is less than omniscient (all powerful) and prescient (foreknowing) in all matters relating to believers AND unbelievers?

And as to the order: how exactly does one separate foreknowing and predestination in God's mind? Does one come before the other? If so, how?

As to Calvin and the Holocaust: Where I have offered well examined and considered remarks you have taken two WORDS out of context and chosen to ignore the rest. To what end?

My friend in Christ, before I go on I must ask is it more important to be right? Or to be righteous?

[Aineo]

If you consider making observations hostile then I quess I am being hostile. Calvin had his own holocaust in Geneva.

What I find interesting concerning OSAS debates is that OSAS advocates will always appeal to their personal experiences as to why they believe in OSAS.

I did no such thing, and you took that sentence out of context to make it appear so rather than to respond to the point I was making with it. In case you missed it I will restate: Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, not us. As I said previously, I am defined by my relationship with the person of Christ, not with religiosity or doctrine. And so it must be for every true believer, do you not agree?

Actually you did.

HE predestined, HE foreknew, HE called, HE justified, HE glorified.

As in all things, HE is the center, not ME. HE saved ME, continues to save, me, justify me, conform me, and in humility and faith I believe HE does it all, not ME.

I agree that our salvation is from God by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. But that is not the issue we are discussing we are discussing OSAS vs. what Scripture teaches concerning apostasy.

As to the Apostles Creed, which one? There are several versions. The original one used by the Catholic Church and one revised by Calvin where he inserted his theology and another one that replaces "He descended into hell" with "He descended to the dead".

In order for OSAS to be a true doctrine a believer no longer has free will since both Jesus and Paul teach that men will fall away from the faith and in order to fall away from the faith a person has to have free will.

By saying this do you assume God is less than omniscient (all powerful) and prescient (foreknowing) in all matters relating to believers AND unbelievers?

And as to the order: how exactly does one separate foreknowing and predestination in God's mind? Does one come before the other? If so, how?

God is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (knows everything), and omnipresent (is everywhere). I have never seen the word prescient used to describe God. The prophets were prescient since they could foretell the future. God is omniscient because He knew before the foundation of the world who would and who would not accept His truth and maintain that truth until death. Therefore because of His foreknowledge He predestined those who would believe to a life of good works that bring praise to the glory of His name (read Ephesians).

One reason Romans 8:26-30 is one of my favorite verses is God knew I would take a detour into gay life, become an AIDS patient and has used both my past and my medical condition to my benefit and His glory.

My friend in Christ, before I go on I must ask is it more important to be right? Or to be righteous?

It is most important to be Biblical and adhere to sound doctrine since no one can work their way to a righteous life. Our righteousness is imputed not earned; our righteousness is a gift from God:

Romans 3:9-30

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,
"There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one. "
13 "Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,"
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness";
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace have they not known. "
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. NAS

[4givn4evr]

God is omniscient because He knew before the foundation of the world who would and who would not accept His truth and maintain that truth until death.

AMEN.

Therefore because of His foreknowledge He predestined those who would believe to a life of good works that bring praise to the glory of His name (read Ephesians).

AND AGAIN I SAY, AMEN.

[beads]

Beads, you refer to Hebrews 6 as a hypothetical situation with absolutely no proof that the author of Hebrews is speaking hypothetically.

I have repeatedly used verse 9 as my proof that the passage is hypothetical. To paraphrase, the writer says "Even though I am saying this, I mean it only as a hypothetical situation, because we know that such things do not accompany [true] salvation."

As to Demas, Hymenaeus, and Alexander if your interpretation is correct you have examples of the prodigal son. Also how does one learn not to blaspheme and what is blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

But my point was that nowhere in those passages can you conclusively prove that, if any of them were saved, they lost their salvation. You belief concerning OSAS leads you to believe that they did lose their salvation, whereas mine leads me to believe that they did not. Neither of us can prove our belief based on these passages alone because they do not speak to OSAS specifically.

However no OSAS proponent has yet to defeat what both Jesus and Paul taught concerning those who will fall away from the faith.

I think the key word in this sentence is the next to last word - "the". Whose faith is it that these apostates are falling away from? Is it their own faith in Jesus? No, it is not. We are not saved by our own faith in Jesus. Rather, we are saved by the faith of Jesus which is given to us by God. See Rom. 3:22, Gal. 6:12, Gal. 3:22, Rev. 14:12. We are not capable of our own natural volition to choose to have faith in God because the natural man is at enmity with God. We are given faith, we believe, and we are saved. So when you say that there are those that will fall away from the faith, it does not mean that they are moving away from their faith that God has given them; instead it means that they are moving further and further away from the faith and the true salvation of God.

Is it your contention that the Lord was speaking hypothetically to the church at Sardis or that this is again the Lord being hypothetical?

No, this is not a hypothetical situation at all. Look at what is said - "the overcomer's name will not be blotted out". This means exactly what it says.

You, however, are taking this as an implication that the converse is also true, i.e. "the non-overcomer's name will be blotted out". As I stated before, a statement and it's converse are not logical equivalents, therefore you are not justified in using this verse to defend your claim.

If you believe that God has predestined some to destruction then we have a contradiction in Scripture:

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. KJV

No you don't. God has predestined some to salvation, meaning that at a certain point in time, God will give a person the faith he needs to believe. This verse was written to encourage believers to remain strong even though Christ had not returned yet (which many saw as Him being "slack concerning His promise"). If Christ had returned earlier, then it would have been before the time that God had planned to apply His faith to many future believers' hearts, thus they would have been sent to hell. But God is not willing that they perish, so He waits until, in His perfect timeframe, He has applied faith to all those whom He will. This is not a contradiction.

There is a contradiction if you believe that God has not predestined some to destruction, though:

Romans 9:18-24
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Also you have the order wrong; He foreknew and then He predestined.

There is no order to the two. They are like parallel railroad tracks, both happening at the same time. The verse says "who He foreknew, He also predestinated". It does not say "He foreknew, then He predestinated".

In Scripture predestination is always applied to believers not unbelievers.

This is not true. See Romans 9:18-24 above.

OSAS actually denies "free will" since OSAS teaches once saved we become robots and are unable to choose to live a righteous life as overcomers,

Non-OSASers love to say this, but it is not true at all. Just because God knows something that will happen, that does not mean that He caused it to happen, or that He eliminated all other possibilities of something else happening. It simply means He knows what's going to happen. Nothing more.

You cannot fall away from a faith you never had.

You're partially right. You cannot fall away from your faith once you have it. But you can fall/move/turn away from a faith that was never given to you.

Witness the many people who have grown up as unsaved Catholics (relatively close to the faith). How many of them, when they are older, choose to reject the Catholic way of life and religion altogether. They have moved from a position of close to faith to not close at all.

Or, even worse, they stay in Catholicism and believe more and more of the heresies taught by that religion. Then they become a priest and start teaching other to do the same. Funny..... that sounds exactly like what the Bible says will happen and what you alluded to when you said:'

...what is plainly taught in Scripture and that is that some will fall away from faith in Jesus Christ and teach others to do the same.

[Aineo]

Hebrews 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. NAS

Your paraphrase is self-serving since you have changed what is written to accommodate your doctrine. Being “convinced of better things concerning you” is not a rhetorical response to a rhetorical question since a rhetorical question goes unanswered, for instance when Paul writes you don’t all speak in tongues do you?

But my point was that nowhere in those passages can you conclusively prove that, if any of them were saved, they lost their salvation. You belief concerning OSAS leads you to believe that they did lose their salvation, whereas mine leads me to believe that they did not. Neither of us can prove our belief based on these passages alone because they do not speak to OSAS specifically.

What you have posted is also true of OSAS, which is a doctrine developed by Calvin without any direct Biblical evidence that OSAS is truth. In fact both Jesus and Paul teach against the concept when they both teach that in the end times some will fall away from the faith.

I was raised in a church that believed OSAS and after years of study have rejected this concept as a doctrine of men. Now you are not going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours. But I will take the Holy Spirit as the final authority not the personal interpretations of selected verses used by Calvin. Predestination is never applied to the lost. Since God is no respecter of persons and does not will that any man should be lost Calvin's teachings contradict the Holy Spirit.

[beads]

Your paraphrase is self-serving since you have changed what is written to accommodate your doctrine. Being “convinced of better things concerning you” is not a rhetorical response to a rhetorical question since a rhetorical question goes unanswered, for instance when Paul writes you don’t all speak in tongues do you?

How would you paraphrase it, then? What is the proper interpretaion of this verse in your mind?

To me, it seems very clear that he is saying "But, beloved, I am convinced that these things would not happen to you, and that these things do not accompany salvation, even though I am speaking this way." If apostacy is not something that goes along with salvation, then how can someone who is saved commit it?

What you have posted is also true of OSAS, which is a doctrine developed by Calvin without any direct Biblical evidence that OSAS is truth.

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (Jn. 10:28 ) This isn't direct Biblical evidence?

In fact both Jesus and Paul teach against the concept when they both teach that in the end times some will fall away from the faith.

Go back and read my last post, where I address this.

Predestination is never applied to the lost.

Go back and read my last post, where I address this.

Since God is no respecter of persons and does not will that any man should be lost Calvin's teachings contradict the Holy Spirit.

Go back and read one of my earlier posts, where I address this. Seriously, Aineo..... what do you do? Just reply to my posts without even reading them? I could maybe understand it if my posts were insanely long, or if the post was made a long time ago, but my last post was not that long, and I can't tell that you've even acknowledge that it exists. You claim that I am not going to change your mind..... well, of course not if you won't even read what I write!

Now you are not going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours. But I will take the Holy Spirit as the final authority not the personal interpretations of selected verses used by Calvin. Predestination is never applied to the lost.

You implication is that I am willing to take the words of a man over the Word of God. I resent that implication and I think it is totally uncalled for, because I can same the same thing to you, since I believe that the Bible teaches against what you believe. Believe me, I am seeking the Holy Spirits guiding and teaching just as much as you are. So, rather than making personal attacks, why don't you just stick to defending your position and trying to disprove what I've said. For the record, that would include actually reading my posts and commenting on them, not just spouting off the same lines you've repeated since the beginning of this thread.

BTW, my claim the you have added to Scripture by presenting contrapositives to statements as just as much Scripture as the original statements themselves is still on the table. You have yet to address it, or even acknowledge it.

[Aineo]

To me, it seems very clear that he is saying "But, beloved, I am convinced that these things would not happen to you, and that these things do not accompany salvation, even though I am speaking this way." If apostacy is not something that goes along with salvation, then how can someone who is saved commit it?

The author of Hebrews is convinced that his readers are not going to fall away from their faith. The very definition of apostasy is to fall away from the faith, which is not part of salvation and results in the loss of salvation.

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (Jn. 10:28 ) This isn't direct Biblical evidence?

No, since Jesus is saying that "no man can pluck" the saved from His hand, Jesus did not say that a man cannot walk away from the Lord. In fact Jesus warns us that some will walk away (fall away) from the faith.

No, this is not a hypothetical situation at all. Look at what is said - "the overcomer's name will not be blotted out". This means exactly what it says.

You, however, are taking this as an implication that the converse is also true, i.e. "the non-overcomer's name will be blotted out". As I stated before, a statement and it's converse are not logical equivalents, therefore you are not justified in using this verse to defend your claim.

Actually I am justified in making my claim that those who do not overcome will have their names blotted out of the Lamb's book of life since only the names of overcomers are in the book of life.

Matthew 10:22
22 "And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. NAS

Revelation 21:7-8
7 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." NAS

As to what you posted concerning predestination in your prior post it denies what is plainly taught. Those God foreknew He predestined does not mean He predestined all who reject or walk away from the Lord to destruction. As to your example from Romans Paul uses one man as an example of those whose hearts He has hardened, which you apply to all that reject His gospel. All this demonstrates is God can and does step into human history to accomplish His will.

Calvin's concept of predestination denies:

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. KJV

If God is not willing that any man should be lost then why would God predestine any human being to reject His path to salvation?

You see Beads you have not responded to all the Scriptures I posted therefore to accuse me of not responding to all you post also applies to you. The fact is when taken in its full context from Genesis through Revelation OSAS is not found to be a Biblical doctrine.
I have not added anything to Scripture, but OSAS ignores or takes away from what is taught in Scripture.

[Aineo]

APOSTASY

APOSTASY. A "falling away." The common classical use of the word has to do with a political defection (Genesis 14:4, LXX; 2 Chronicles 13:6, LXX; Acts 5:37). In the NT its more usual meaning is that of a religious defection (21:21; 4:1; 3:12). This is called "apostasy from the faith" (apostasia a fide): a secession from the church, and a disowning of the name of Christ. Some of its peculiar characteristics are mentioned, such as seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, hypocritical lying, a seared conscience, forbidding of marriage and of meats, a form of godliness without the power (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 3:5). The grave nature of apostasy is shown by such passages as Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:15-21, and John 15:22. Apostasy as the act of a professed Christian, who knowingly and deliberately rejects revealed truth regarding the deity of Christ (1 John 4:1-3) and redemption through His atoning sacrifice (Philippians 3:18; 2 Peter 2:1) is different from error, which may be the result of ignorance (Acts 19:1-6), or heresy, which may be the result of falling into the snare of Satan (2 Timothy 2:25-26). Both error and heresy may accordingly be consistent with true faith. On the other hand, apostasy departs from the faith but not from the outward profession of it (2 Timothy 3:5). Apostasy, whether among the angels (Isaiah 14:12-14; Ezekiel 28:15; Jude 6), in Israel (Isaiah 1:1-6; 5:5-7), or in the church (Revelation 3:14-16) is irremediable and awaits judgment. Mankind's apostasy in Adam (Genesis 3:6-7) is curable only through the sacrifice of Christ. Apostates apparently can only be professors and not actual possessors of true salvation, otherwise their defection would incur severe chastening or, if this failed to restore them, untimely (physical) death (1 Corinthians 5:5; 11:32; 1 John 5:16).


(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)

APOSTASY

APOSTASY

A falling away from the faith. The nation of Israel fell into repeated backslidings (Jeremiah 5:6, RSV). The prophet Jeremiah predicted the judgment of God upon such disloyalty: "Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will reprove you" (Jeremiah 2:19, RSV).

Some of the noted apostates in the Bible are: King Saul, who turned back from following the Lord (1 Samuel 15:11); Hymenaeus and Alexander, who "suffered shipwreck" of their faith (1 Timothy 1:19-20); and Demas, who forsook the apostle Paul because he loved this present world (2 Timothy 4:10).

In Acts 21:21 the apostle Paul was described falsely as one who taught the Jews living among the Gentiles to commit apostasy (forsake, NKJV). Second Thessalonians 2:3> declares that the Day of Christ "will not come unless the apostasy comes first" (NASB). This great apostasy will be the time of "the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, NEB).

Apostasy is generally defined as the determined, willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian believer (Hebrews 10:26-29; John 15:22). This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance. Some Christian groups teach that apostasy is impossible for those persons who have truly accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

APOSTASY

APOSTASY; APOSTATE

(a-pos'-ta-si), (a-pos'-tat) (he apostasia, "a standing away from"): I.e. a falling away, a withdrawal, a defection. Not found in the English Versions of the Bible, but used twice in the New Testament, in the Greek original, to express abandonment of the faith. Paul was falsely accused of teaching the Jews apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21); he predicted the great apostasy from Christianity, foretold by Jesus (Matthew 24:10-12) which would precede "the day of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 2:2). Apostasy, not in name but in fact, meets scathing rebuke in the Epistle of Jude, e.g. the apostasy of angels (Jude 6). Foretold, with warnings, as sure to abound in the latter days (1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 2 Peter 3:17). Causes of: persecution (Matthew 24:9-10); false teachers (Matthew 24:11); temptation (Luke 8:13); worldliness (2 Timothy 4:4); defective knowledge of Christ (1 John 2:19); moral lapse (Hebrews 6:4-6); forsaking worship and spiritual living (Hebrews 10:25-31); unbelief (Hebrews 3:12). Biblical examples: Saul (1 Samuel 15:11); Amaziah (2 Chronicles 25:14,27); many disciples (John 6:66); Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:19-20); Demas (2 Timothy 4:10). For further illustration see Deuteronomy 13:13; Zephaniah 1:4-6; Galatians 5:4; 2 Peter 2:20-21.

"Forsaking Jehovah" was the characteristic and oft-recurring sin of the chosen people, especially in their contact with idolatrous nations. It constituted their supreme national peril. The tendency appeared in their earliest history, as abundantly seen in the warnings and prohibitions of the laws of Moses (Exodus 20:3-4,23; Deuteronomy 6:14; 11:16). The fearful consequences of religious and moral apostasy appear in the curses pronounced against this sin, on Mount Ebal, by the representatives of six of the tribes of Israel, elected by Moses (Deuteronomy 27:13-26; 28:15-68). So wayward was the heart of Israel, even in the years immediately following the national emancipation, in the wilderness, that Joshua found it necessary to re-pledge the entire nation to a new fidelity to Yahweh and to their original covenant before they were permitted to enter the Promised Land (Joshua 24:1-28). Infidelity to this covenant blighted the nation's prospects and growth during the time of the Judges (Judges 2:11-15; 10:6,10,13; 1 Samuel 12:10). It was the cause of prolific and ever-increasing evil, civic and moral, from Solomon's day to the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. Many of the kings of the divided kingdom apostatized, leading the people, as in the case of Rehoboam, into the grossest forms of idolatry and immorality (1 Kings 14:22-24; 2 Chronicles 12:1). Conspicuous examples of such royal apostasy are Jeroboam (1 Kings 12:28-32); Ahab (1 Kings 16:30-33); Ahaziah (1 Kings 22:51-53); Jehoram (2 Chronicles 21:6,10,12-15); Ahaz (2 Chronicles 28:1-4); Manasseh (2 Chronicles 33:1-9); Amen (2 Chronicles 33:22). See IDOLATRY. Prophecy originated as a Divine and imperative protest against this historic tendency to defection from the religion of Yahweh.
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

[LuckyStrike]

Greetings to you all in the name of Christ.

Warning: The following three posts are a reply to all of the pro-Conditional Salvation theology argumentation presented on this thread. They were created to offer a thorough and rigorous reply, both for purposes of education and debate. Therefore, no important stone has been left unturned.

So before starting your reading, I recommend that you get settled in with some snacks and/or background entertainment. And I encourage you to take breaks when reading.

But please read the entirety of all three posts. I composed them to be read, not skimmed or skipped over with impatience. And if you reply, please be aware that I will not rush my responses.

Contents:
Post #1: Reply to LindaBee2 [Medium Sized Post]
Post #2: Reply to Kolaz [Shortest Post]
Post #3: Reply to Anieo [Longest Post]

[LuckyStrike]

"Once saved, always saved" is true for those of us who endure.

for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

You are putting unwarranted assumption into the text.

1 John 5 [NIV]
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Notice that verse 4 links "overcomes" with "born of God." And this "birth of God" refers to being born again (ref. John 3:5) (verse 1).

This is significant because verse 4 shows that being born again is the cause of overcoming in this instance. The word "born" (gennao, Strong's #1080 + #5772) is stated in the perfect passive, which means it was completely completed in the past. But, "overcomes" (nikao, Strong's #3528 + #5719) is stated in the present tense, which means it is ocurring in actual time. This clearly shows a past action as being the basis or cause of the current action.

This means that the verse is dynamically saying: "everyone [that has been] born of God [is currently] overcom[ing] the world."

Thus, the assumptions you are putting into 1 John 5:4 turn the meaning of the verse backwards. You try to make "overcomes" a prerequisite of "born of God," when in fact the latter is the cause of the former. Put another way, the latter demonstrates the reality of the former, as opposed to being a requirement for the former.

So no, 1 John 5:1-5 does not mention Conditional Salvation.

But apostates do lose their salvation.

And where does Scripture equate apostasy to the loss of salvation?

HEBREWS 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 6 [NIV]
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

The Greek word for "taste" in verses 4 and 5 is geuomai (Strong's #1089), which means "to taste," as in "to feel, make trial of, experience" [Strong's Lexicon], and "to taste; by implication, to eat; figuratively, to experience (good or ill):--eat, taste" [Strong's Greek Dictionary].

In verses 4 and 5, one must immediately note that the subject is tasting or making trial of the listed things from God. This points to the idea of experiencing without complete involvement, for tasting is an incomplete action of consuming. This is supported by the fact that we symbolically eat and drink Christ's body and blood (ref. John 6:51, John 6:53-57), not simply symbolically taste it, in getting salvation. Further, verse 4 mentions the sharing of the Spirit. This is significant because Christians do not share the Spirit between each other, but rather the Spirit dwells within every believer individually (1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 2 Corinthians 6:16, John 14:16).

But how can one experience without complete involvement? Just like the unsaved spouse is sanctified by the saved spouse (ref. 1 Corinthians 7:14), so can someone who is unsaved experience certain spiritual elements of a Christian community. For instance, the unsaved can be involved in the work of the Holy Spirit, bringing salvation to others, knowing the Word of God, and so on.

Hebrews 6:4 [NIV]
if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance,[...]

Hebrews 6:4 [NASB]
and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance,[...]

Hebrews 6:4 [KJV]
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance[...][/color]

The Greek word for "fall away" is Parapipto (Strong's # 3895), which means "to fall away (from the true faith): from worship of Jehovah" [Strong's Lexicon] and "to fall aside, i.e. (figuratively) to apostatize:--fall away" [Strong's Greek Dictionary].

The Greek word for "impossible" is Adunatos (Strong's # 102), which means "unable to be done, impossible" [Strong's Lexicon] and "unable, i.e. weak (literally or figuratively); passively, impossible:--could not do, impossible, impotent, not possible, weak" [Strong's Greek Dictionary].

The Greek word for "brought" [NIV] and "renew" [NASB and KJV] is Anakainizo (Strong's # 340), which means "to renew, renovate" [Strong's Lexicon] and "to restore:--renew" [Strong's Greek Dictionary].

And the Greek word for "repentance" is Metanoia (Strong's # 3341), which means "a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done" [Strong's Lexicon] and "compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):--repentance" [Strong's Greek Dictionary].

In verse 6, Paul is saying that when such a person falls aside, falls away, or deviates, it is impossible to renew, restore, or renovate them to a change of mind a second time. In other words, when such a person deviates from their involvement in the faith, they will not choose to come back to the faith.

Hebrews 6 [NIV]
7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

In verses 7 and 8, Paul uses the illustration of land to make a comparison between people. Notice that the land that produces a crop is already receiving rain while the land that produces nothing is not mentioned as receiving rain. When related to people, this means that a believer is productive because they are receiving from God, while a false believer or non-believer produces nothing because they get nothing from God.

So no, Hebrews 6:4-8 does not mention Conditional Salvation.

HEBREWS 10:26-31
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sin is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:26 [NIV]
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth,[...]

Hebrews 10:26 [NASB]
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth,[...]

Hebrews 10:26 [KJV]
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,[...]

You are putting unwarranted assumption into the text. Hebrews 10:26 is about receiving knowledge of the truth, not salvation.

Specifically, this verse is referring to unchanged conduct while knowing the truth. Notice that the word "sin" (hamartano, Strong's #264 + #5723) is used in the present tense, while "received" (lambano, Strong's #2983 + #5629) is used in the second Aorist tense, which emphasizes a "punctiliar action" or "point in time, divorced from time." And this is being done "willfully" or by one's accord (Hekousios, Strong's #1596). This means that one is in the present process or habit of intentionally or willfully sinning after having received the knowledge of the truth at some point.

However, the author clearly implies that acquiring this knowledge should have stopped this present process of sinning. This is significant, because the steps to salvation begin with being given knowledge. And if knowledge does not produce change, then one can immediately assume the lack of change within the person in question.

Thus, when put in context, Hebrews 10:26 refers to the unsaved's lack of response to receiving knowledge about Christ's sacrifice, or the Gospel.

So no, Hebrews 10:26-31 does not refer to Conditional Salvation.

There's a difference between backsliding and apostasy. From what I understand, apostasy is willfully and unremorsefully sinning against God. It's the complete abandonment of your faith.

I think that a backslider, meanwhile, will sin against God and -- after being chastised -- will repent and seek forgiveness and help for whatever sin they're dealing with.

I think you are drawing a line that is not found in Scripture. Let me illustrate this by asking you a question:

What is the difference between:
(1) unintentionally abandoning the faith due to a genuine crisis of faith (backsliding) and
(2) willfully renouncing your faith out of anger towards Christ because he did not do something for you (apostasy)?

Both involve the abandonment of the faith, but for different reasons. Are you telling me that the comparative merits of one's actions play a part in this?

Here's what I found in the Wycliffe's Bible Encyclopedia.

In the case of apostates, though He may allow them to remain, He withdraws from them all possibility of repentance and salvation (Heb 6:1-6; 10:26-31).

This encyclopedia quotation (page 1, 6th post from bottom) does not prove Conditional Salvation. Instead, all it does is provide the same two Scriptural references you have already listed to support the idea that one can lose their salvation. And I have already addressed them.

That aside, that encyclopedia is making doctrinal statements instead of objectively examining both sides of the issue. Therefore, that quotation is nothing more than an argument of dull weight.

However:

The view that the backslider who though once saved has become lost again, fails to see that the Christian's standing must be distinguished from his state. Positionally, that is, as far as his standing is concerned, he is in Christ and eternally justified. He is safe against anything and anyone taking away his eternal life, since both Christ and the Father hold him in their hands (Jn 10:28-29). And yet the Christian's state is subject to change, since he is still imperfect and able either to progress or regress. The Christian's standing is spoken of in Col 2:10-13 as a perfection equal to Christ's; his state (I Cor 3:1-4; Rom 7), as one in danger of a constant degeneration into carnality. Backsliding invokes chastening from God (Heb 12:6; I Cor 11:32), and results in loss of rewards (II Cor 5:10; I Cor 3:15), loss of fellowship (I Jn 1:7), removal from a place of usefulness (I Cor 5:5; 11:30), and sometimes even calls for removal from this life by death (I Cor 11:30).

I agree with this. Why cannot this be applicable to all Christians, both backslidden and apostate?

[LuckyStrike]

I Corinth 6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11: And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 is speaking about unrighteous non-believers, not believers. Notice that in verse 11, Paul tells his believing audience that they used to be that way, but are no longer.

In addition, believers are imputed with the righteousness of God (Philippians 3:9). Therefore, no true believer has an unrighteous standing before God.

Acts:16:30: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe what?

No, faith is the means by which one is saved, not the act by which one is saved. Specifically, God credits our faith as righteousness through his grace alone. This is called imputation, which is the process of being credited with righteousness that did not come from one's self.

The concept of imputation can be found in Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:1-5, 23-24, and James 2:23.

Genesis 15:6 [NIV]
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Genesis 15:6 [NASB]
Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Genesis 15:6 [KJV]
And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

The Hebrew term for "believed" is 'aman (Strong's #539), which is used in the Hiphil word stem and means "to stand firm, to trust, to be certain, to believe in." Also, the Hebrew term for "credited" [NIV], "reckoned" [NASB], and "counted" [KJV] is Chashab (Strong's 2803), which is used in the Qal word stem and means "to charge, impute, reckon." Further, the Hebrew term for "righteousness" is Ts@daqah (Strong's #6666), which in this case means "righteous act."

God credited (or charged, imputed) Abraham's faith (or trust in God) as righteousness (or a righteous act).

And Paul duplicates what is expressed in Genesis 15:6 in Romans 4:1-5, 23-24.

Romans 4
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

*See also James 2:23.

The Greek word for "justifies" is Dikaioo (Strong's #1344), which means "to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be." And the Greek word for "wicked" is Asebes (Strong's #765), which means "destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious." Also, the Greek word for "believe" is Pisteuo (Strong's #4100), which means "have confidence (of the thing believed)." In addition, the Greek word for "credit" is Logizomai (Strong's #3049), which means "a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight."

The key points here are (1) "God justifies (declares or pronounces just or righteous) the wicked (those who do not revere God)" (2) "the faith (confidence) of the man who does not work is credited (reckoned to be equivalent to) as righteousness." Thus, not only does Paul duplicate the Hebrew meaning of Genesis 15:6, but he also emphasizes it by bluntly saying God justifies those who are not righteous, or the wicked.

In conjunction with Romans 4:1-5, Paul says that he does not have a righteousness of his own in Phillipians 3:9.

Philippians 3
9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

Faith, in and of itself, does not make us righteous. Imputation means that one is credited with righteousness that did not come from themself. Further, imputation is purely a decision of God that is based on his grace alone.

And both Paul and James cite Genesis 15:6 (in Romans 4:3 and James 2:23 respectively) to show that they both support imputation.

[LuckyStrike]

I hate to be a fly in the ointment but:

Matthew 24:4-14
"See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come. NAS

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
NAS

1 Timothy 4:1-5
4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
NAS

You are putting unwarranted assumption into the text. Nowhere do these verses show apostasy being equated to the loss of salvation.

How can you fall away from something you never had in the first place?

Because possession can mean different things.

For instance, there is a difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge. You can know the truth but not truly believe it. Remember what happened to the father of the possessed boy in Mark 9:

Mark 9 [NIV]
21 Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?"
"From childhood," he answered. 22 "It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us."
23 " 'If you can'? " said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."
24 Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"

Notice that the father of the boy wanted to believe, yet could not. So it is with many pseudo-Christians.

Another example is genuine belief in the wrong things. For instance, one can genuinely have faith in a counterfeit Christ, or a version of Christ that does not exist. The Corinthians seemed to have suffered from this basic problem:

2 Corinthians 11 [NIV]
3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles."

This list can go on. But I believe the point is made.

Here is the full article on apostasy from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

This encyclopedia entry (page 1, bottom) does not list a single verse from Scripture that establishes a connection between apostasy and the loss of salvation. You are relying on your personal assumptions put into this article to make the point.

The only thing that comes remotely close is this:

Apostasy, not in name but in fact, meets scathing rebuke in the Epistle of Jude, e.g. the apostasy of angels (Jude 6).

Jude 1:6 [NIV]
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

The angels were not under grace, nor did they have any atoning sacrifice for their sins. Thus, when the sinned, they were sent straight to hell. This is because they were created perfect (ref. Deuteronomy 32:4, Ezekiel 28:12), thereby rendering them in full control of their actions.

However, all humans are born sinful without choice (ref. Romans 5:12-14). They are all imperfect, thereby not giving them full control of their actions. This caused God to make grace and an atoning sacrifice available to all men.

Thus, comparing the fall of angels to man's salvation is a faulty analogy. It is like comparing apples to oranges.

I can give you modern day examples of men who were born again and then fell away from the true faith and are now teaching heresy as Biblical truth. How can this happen? By quenching the Spirit of truth when circumstances and personal desires are more important than "enduring to the end".

And how do you know that they were truly born again? All you have is assumptions.

However, if any of the examples you could provide were truly saved, I would agree that the Spirit will go silent when one refuses to listen to it. But, nowhere does Scripture show the Spirit leaving a believer. To the contrary, Scripture says that the Spirit will forever stay with a believer:

Hebrews 13:5 [NIV]
Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you."

Matthew 28:20 [NIV]
"And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

John 14:16 [NIV]
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Were Christ and Paul lying?

Once saved always saved is a modern doctrine not found in Scripture.

Then prove this is the case with Scriptural prooftexting. Trying to argue alleged "historical facts" only serves to divert the discussion.

What no OSAS adherent has been able to do is void what both Jesus and Paul taught concerning believers falling away from the faith,[...]

You have yet to provide Scriptural prooftexting that directly links apostasy to the loss of salvation. Instead, you assume this is the case and insert unwarranted assumption into the text.

This issue is not about "voiding out Scripture," but rather properly interpreting it. And accusing all OSAS adherents of trying to "void out Scripture" is an unjustified circumstantial ad hominem attack.

I do not believe or teach that one can be saved, fall away or become apostate and then be saved again. You get one "bite at the apple"[...]:

So are you saying that the demerits of one's actions can merit the loss of their unmerited salvation? Not only is this paradoxical reasoning, but it also violates Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 11:6.

Ephesians 2 [NIV]
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 11:6 [NIV]
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

What OSAS totally ignores are all the promises that contain one little word and that word is "if".

Just because Scripture uses an "if-then" statement does not mean that it is establishing a condition for salvation. That is an unwarranted assumption based on doctrinal presuppositions.

In addition, I respectfully submit this personal note:

What I find frustrating, yet amusing, is the fact that most adherents to Conditional Salvation theology think they see references to their doctrine in just about any part of Scripture. It seems that they cannot turn a page of the Bible without spotting "prooftexting." The reason that this is the case is because they actively read Scripture with their presuppositions and assumptions in mind, not for what Scripture actually says. The result is cart load after cart load of misquoted Scripture, which is piled together in an effort to "stack the deck" against the opposing viewpoint.

Thus, if you refute 10 misquotes of Scripture, they usually show no signs of caring. Instead, they will simply conjure up another 10 misquotes. And the cycle will continue to repeat itself until they display boredom and leave.

OSAS also ignores:

Revelation 3:5

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. KJV

You are putting unwarranted assumptions into the text.

Revelation 3 [NIV]
1"To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Notice that Revelation 3:1-5 is addressed to the spiritually dead church called "Sardis." Not only does Christ tell this church that it is dead (verse 1), but he also instructs it to remember what it received and repent (verse 3). Then Christ notes that some people have not soiled their clothes (verse 4), or are true believers. He then lists the rewards that these believers (verse 4), and others that join them by overcoming (verse 5), will get in the future (verses 4 and 5).

When Christ calls for people to "overcome," he is calling for its members to overcome the spiritual deadness of this church. And this is to be done by repenting after remembering what they received and heard, which are the steps towards being saved. Therefore, "overcoming" simply means successfully taking the necessary steps to be saved, or the immediate result of doing this.

Therefore, Revelation 3:1-5 is not written within the framework of believers losing their salvation, but rather the spiritually dead getting salvation. And with this in mind, let us examine Revelation 3:5.

Revelation 3:5 [NIV]
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

Revelation 3:5 [NASB]
'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 3:5 [KJV]
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The word for "never" [NIV] and "not" [NASB and KJV] is Ou me (Strong's #3364), which means "never, certainly not, not at all, by no means" [Strong's Lexicon] and "a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all:--any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise)" [Strong's Greek Dictionary].

In this verse, Christ is strongly affirming that no believer's name will be removed from the Book of Life. In other words, Christ is emphasizing the security of the believers from Sardis, especially that of the overcomers, not their insecurity. Quite simply, you do not encourage the people of Sardis to overcome, or be saved, by saying how one's name can be removed from the Book of Life. This would be nonsensical.

So no, Revelation 3:5 is not speaking about Conditional Salvation.

John 8:31

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; KJV

You are putting unwarranted assumption into the text.

John 8 [NIV]
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

John 8 [NASB]
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

John 8 [KJV]
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The Greek word for "teaching" [NIV] and "word" [NASB and KJV] is logos (Strong's 3056), which means "of speech," specifically "doctrine or teaching" [Strong's Lexicon].

The Greek term for "disciples" [NIV, NASB, KJV] is mathetes (Strong's #3101), which means "a learner, pupil, disciple" [Strong's Lexicon] and "a learner, i.e. pupil:--disciple" [Strong's Greek Dictionary].

These verses are speaking about discipleship. Notice that in verse 31, he tells the believing Jews that if they hold to his words or teachings, then they will truly be his learners, pupils, or disciples. Then in verse 32, he says that the result of this will be them knowing the truth, which will set them free. In short, Christ is speaking about a teacher and student relationship between him and the believing Jews, with the communication of knowledge being the purpose. Thus, the conditional statement being made here applies to being a true learner of knowledge, not keeping salvation.

When put within the context of John 8, this statement was directed towards Jews who had just started believing him (verse 30). In response to their belief, Christ made an offer in the form of the above conditional statement (verses 31 and 32). This means that he had directed this statement towards the unsaved, not believers. This is significant because one must receive knowledge before issues of receiving salvation come into play.

So no, John 8:31 does not set down a condition for keeping salvation.

John 8:52

52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. KJV

You are putting unwarranted assumption into Scripture.

John 8:52 [NIV]
[...]yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.

John 8:52 [NASB]
[...]and You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.'

John 8:52 [KJV]
[...]and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

The Greek word for "keeps" [NIV and NASB] and "keep" [KJV] is tereo (Strong's #5083), which means "to attend to carefully, take care of," as in "to observe" [Strong's Lexicon] and "to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; [...] by implication, to detain (in custody; figuratively, to maintain); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried); by extension, to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively, to keep unmarried):--hold fast, keep(- er), (pre-, re-)serve, watch" [Strong's Greek Dictionary].

The Greek word for "word" [NIV and NASB] and "saying" [KJV] is logos (Strong's 3056), which means "of speech," specifically "doctrine or teaching" [Strong's Lexicon].

In John 8:52, Christ is speaking to the unbelieving Jews. He says that if one carefully attends to, observes, or detains what he has said or taught, then one will never taste death. In other words, one must follow Christ's teachings in order to avoid spiritual death. This means that Christ was offering the unbelieving Jews knowledge that leads one to salvation. However, the unbelieving Jews rejected this offer with mocking criticism (verse 53 and 57).

So no, John 8:52 does not provide a condition for keeping salvation.

1 John 2:24-25

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
KJV

You are putting unwarranted assumption into Scripture.

1 John 2 [NIV]
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us--even eternal life.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Verse 24 is not speaking about a condition to keep salvation, but rather how the individual preservation of "what you have heard" guarantees that one has attained salvation, or is in Christ.

Notice that in verse 19, John mentions how certain Christians simply left, which showed that they were not really Christians. Then, in verses 22 and 23, John states how unbelievers reject the truth and show they are unsaved. And then in verse 26, John mentions how many people are trying to lead Christians astray. Thus, within this context, verse 24 serves as a standard for knowing truth and guaranteeing salvation in light of such circumstances.

No man or external power can snatch or remove us from the hands of our Savior; but we by choice can walk away from His word and His truth for many reasons.

You are misquoting John 10:28-30.

John 10 [NIV]
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

The Greek word for "hand" [NIV, NASB, and KJV] is cheir (Strong's #5495), which means "fig. applied to God symbolising his might, activity, power," specifically "in upholding and preserving (God is present protecting and aiding one)" and/or "in determining and controlling the destinies of men" [Strong's Lexicon] and "(through the idea of hollowness for grasping); the hand (literally or figuratively (power); especially (by Hebraism) a means or instrument):--hand" [Strong's Greek Dictionary].

In John 10:28-30, Christ illustrates the security of his sheep by saying they cannot be snatched out of his hand ( verse 28 ) and God the Father's hand (verse 29).

Does this mean that Christ's sheep, or believers, are literally standing in the hand of Christ and God the Father? No, these verses are a symbolic illustration of their grasp on believers, which is maintained through activity and power. And this activity and power is used to uphold believers, preserve believers, and determine or control the destiny of believers.

Now notice that verses 28 and 29 say that nobody can snatch Christ's sheep, or believers, out of Christ's or God the Father's hand. This means that nobody can void out their activity and power that surrounds believers. More specifically, nobody can nullify how they uphold believers, preserve believers, and determine or control the destiny of believers.

This is significant because these verses outline intangible realities that an external person or the believer themself cannot nullify through free will actions. It is only by Christ and God the Father's choice that such things are removed or stopped. Therefore, this verse applies to all people, even believers themselves.

Living a Christian life is not easy and anyone who says it is easy is living in self-deception. What is so difficult about living a Christian life?

You are confusing salvation with sanctification. There is a difference between having a life in Christ (salvation) and how one lives their life in Christ (sanctification).

Salvation is easily obtained, for it is by God's grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6). However, the difficulty comes in traveling the path of sanctification that God sets before you. This is because sanctification is imparted by God (ref. Romans 6:22, 2 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Matthew 16:24-28

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
KJV

This is speaking about requirements for true discipleship, not salvation. Where does Christ say that this is a requirement for keeping salvation?

As to examples of apostates in Scripture:

John 6:66-71

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 Jesus said therefore to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" 68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 "And we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him. NAS

1 Timothy 1:18-20

18 This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may fight the good fight, 19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. 20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered over to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme. NAS

2 Timothy 4:9-10

9 Make every effort to come to me soon; 10 for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; NAS

Nowhere in these Scriptural quotations does it state that anyone lost their salvation. You are relying on assumption put into the text to make your point.

Jesus choose Judas and Judas choose the world.

How do you know that he was saved, but then lost his salvation?

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
NAS

You are putting unwarranted assumption into the text.

1 Corinthians 9 [NIV]
24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

In 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, Paul uses an analogy to explain the life of believers. Specifically, he compares the life of believers to a sporting event, as in a race.

When a race is held, the central issue is not if the participants finish the said course, but how they finish the course. In other words, a race is not about completion, but comparison. And in order to do well against others, one must prepare properly, such as in doing training and getting the right equipment. And the more successful an athlete is during the competition, the more they are rewarded.

When applied to the life of believers, this analogy shows that simply living a life in Christ, or completing the course, is not enough. Instead, how one lives that life in Christ, or travels the course, is also very important. The believer must prepare by pursuing sanctification, or the proper training. And the more fruitful that a believer is during their life in Christ, the more rewards they will get afterwards.

In addition, notice that in verse 25, Paul clearly states that this race is run for crowns that will last forever, or rewards, not salvation. Nowhere does Scripture symbolize salvation as a crown. This is because salvation is a change in one's standing before God, not a material possession.

Remember what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15:

1 Corinthians 3 [NIV]
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

In explaining the judgment of the saints by Christ, Paul points out that people will get different rewards according to their works. Nowhere in the Bible is there an exhaustive list of what these rewards might be. However, some rewards are mentioned within other parts of Scripture.

For instance, we will get crowns:

Crowns, in general: 1 Corinthians 9:25, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, Revelation 3:11
Crown of Righteousness: 2 Timothy 4:8
Crown of Life: James 1:12, Revelation 2:10
Crown of Glory: 1 Peter 5:4

Crowns worn by elders: Revelation 4:4, Revelation 4:10
Crowns worn by Christ: Revelation 19:12

The list could go on, but the point is made.

Revelation 21:6-8
6 And He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 "He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." NAS

You are putting unwarranted assumption into Scripture.

Revelation 21 [NIV]
6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Notice that in verse 6, Christ mentions that he will give a drink to those who are thirsty. This phraseology is also mentioned in the Gospel (ref. John 4:12-14, John 6:34-36, etc.), where it refers to the giving of the Spirit (John 7:37-39). This is significant, because this expression is Christ's way of offering salvation.

This offer is repeated by Christ offering to be one's God and make one his son. This echoes the promises of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:10 [see Hebrews 8], Galatians 4:4-7).

Thus, the context of verses 6 and 7 is clearly about receiving salvation. Therefore, "overcoming" refers to taking the necessary steps to be saved, or the immediate result of obtaining salvation. And this is further supported by how verse 8 states that unbelievers, or the unsaved, will be placed in the lake of fire.

What I find interesting concerning OSAS debates is that OSAS advocates will always appeal to their personal experiences as to why they believe in OSAS.

You are engaging in a hasty generalization. Can you prove this is the case with all OSAS advocates?

I, personally, have never done this. I prefer to stay within the realm of Scriptural interpretation and debate. In doing so, I place equal emphasis on both (1) the believer's responsibilities and accountability and (2) God's sovereignty over salvation. However, I see the balance between these two items in a different context that you do.

OSAS actually denies "free will" since OSAS teaches once saved we become robots and are unable to choose to live a righteous life as overcomers, which also denies:

You are engaging in non sequitur reasoning. Not all adherents to the doctrine of Eternal Security, or OSAS, believe in or use Calvinistic predestination as a basis for their doctrinal beliefs.

The problem is that you pay more attention to those that do this as opposed to those who do not. In other words, you pay attention to the "hits" and ignore the "misses."

Contrary to your presuppositions, the doctrine of Eternal Security does affirm free will, but also affirms the consequences of free will actions. Specifically, once one makes the choice to accept Jesus Christ, their choice places them under the ownership of Christ and God the Father.

1 Corinthians 6:18-20 [NIV]
18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

One is owned by God because their body is the temple of the Spirit (verses 19 and 20). With this in mind, recall that the Spirit dwells in one's inner being (Ephesians 3:16), or spirit (ref. Romans 7:22-23), while one's body is the temple of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:16). This is significant because this makes both one's spirit and body part of the "living temple," thereby making God's ownership of an individual all-encompassing.

Hence, it is the owner that decides what happens to a believer, not a believer themself. Therefore, citing what believers do is not a valid criteria to declare the loss of one's salvation.

Revelation 5 [NIV]
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."

Verse 9 clearly says Christ purchased men with his sacrifice, not the other way around in any form. This means that what Christ does with men, not what men do with Christ, is what matters.

In order for OSAS to be a true doctrine a believer no longer has free will since both Jesus and Paul teach that men will fall away from the faith and in order to fall away from the faith a person has to have free will.

You are equivocating apostasy with the loss of salvation within free will issues. Nowhere does Scripture link the two concepts.

That aside, the idea that one can choose to reject salvation and simply lose it, just like any material gift that one does not want, is inherently based on a misunderstanding of what salvation is. Salvation, among many other things, is the complete payment of one’s sin debt, which includes all the past, present, and future sins one will commit (1 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 9:27-28, Hebrews 10:14). Thus, no matter how much one backslides, their sin debt remains paid for all time. Thus, salvation encompasses a reality that surpasses the simple issue of freewill decision making. And if someone’s sin debt is already paid for all time, then there is no reason why God would revoke that person’s salvation. This is because nothing outside of sin separates the individual from God.

[...]OSAS, which is a doctrine developed by Calvin without any direct Biblical evidence that OSAS is truth.

No, aside from the other arguments I have presented, there are two key issues that necessitate Eternal Security.

First, Conditional Salvation theology neglects the fact that one is a "new creature" in Christ.

Titus 3:5 [NIV]
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

2 Corinthians 5:17 [NIV]
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

2 Corinthians 3 [NIV]
13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Romans 7 [NIV]
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

When one is saved, they are a "new creation" in the sense that (1) a veil is removed from the minds and hearts while (2) their spirit is regenerated into a godly spirit by the Holy Spirit. This creates two key problems for Conditional Salvation theology:

1) In order to fully reject Christ, one must reject Christ in their spirit as well as their flesh. However, if one possesses a godly spirit with a godly nature through regeneration by the Holy Spirit, then they would be required to fully overcome the nature of their spirit, which is impossible. At best, a Christian would backslide or "fall away" due to listening to the sinful nature of their flesh more than the godly nature of their spirit. But one would never be able to reject Christ in spirit.

2) When the veil is removed from the mind and heart of a believer, they will never be able to fully deny the truth of the Gospel in their minds in their hearts.

- - - - -

Second, Conditional Salvation theology neglects the fact that the Holy Spirit is God's seal on the believer that guarantees the believer's redemption and salvation. And all Christians who are saved receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:37-39).

Ephesians 1
13 Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 1
21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

In Ephesians 1:13-14, Paul says that when the Ephesians had believed the gospel, they were sealed by the Holy Spirit as a guarantor of their redemption, or salvation. The Greek word for "marked with a seal" in Ephesians 1:13 is sphragizo (Strong's #4972). This verb is used in the Aorist tense, which means this verb expresses its meaning "without regard for past, present, or future time."

In addition, Ephesians 1:13-14 shows that the Holy Spirit is the seal and the only shown criteria for being permanently sealed with the Holy Spirit is believing (ref. Acts 16:30-31, Romans 10:9-10), or simply being saved (Acts 2:37-39). Thus, any Christian who has truly believed in Christ at any time in their life will be permanently saved through a permanent sealing by the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17).

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 expresses the idea that believers sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit are under the ownership of God. The Greek word for " to seal" (Sphragizo, Strong's #4972) again ocurrs in the Aorist tense, thereby indicating that those sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit are under permanent ownership of God.

Ephesians 4
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

I was raised in a church that believed OSAS and after years of study have rejected this concept as a doctrine of men. Now you are not going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours.

Like it or not, doubts can enter your mind, even while you offer the most ardent resistance to the opposing viewpoint. Put another way, seeds can be planted within you despite your best efforts to dig them up.

Therefore, I take such claims of mental invincibility with a grain of salt. Instead, I prefer to let the conversation take its natural course before making such conclusions.

But I will take the Holy Spirit as the final authority not the personal interpretations of selected verses used by Calvin.

So are you claiming that the Spirit gives you the correct interpretation of Scripture? What about when people of the opposing viewpoint claim the same thing? How do you prove that this claim applies to you as opposed to others?

Matthew 10:22
22 "And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. NAS

You are putting unwarranted assumption into the text. The term "saved" (sozo, Strong's #4982) can have multiple meanings, as in (1) possessing spiritual salvation, (2) being protected from something, or (3) preserving something.

Notice that in Matthew 10, Christ is giving the Apostles instructions for when they are sent out (verse 5). Within these instructions, Christ focuses on their mission ( verses 5-8 ), habits or conduct they should adopt (verses 6-16), and how they will encounter persecution (verses 17-23).

The statement in question is made within the third focus of Christ, which is how they will encounter persecution. He specifically says that if they endure, then they will be saved. This means that their personal preservation from that particular misfortune comes from enduring, abiding, or remaining (Hupomeno, Strong's # 5278).

Quote:

[...](from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)[...]

[...](from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)[...]

[...](from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

The encyclopedia articles you cite (page 3, bottom) do not quote any verses that establish a connection between apostasy and the loss of salvation. You are relying on your personal assumptions put into these articles to make the point.

If you disagree with this, then post the Scriptural references that you want addressed.

[Aineo]

Lucky you have demonstrated on other message boards that you lack integrity as well as an arrogance that is not wanted on this board.

OSAS is a doctrine first proposed by Calvin and is not a salvation issue. Those who choose to believe OSAS and live in accordance with God's will will be included in the 1st resurrection as will those who do not accept OSAS. On the other hand those who appeal to OSAS as a justification to practice sin will be judged to the lake of fire.

This doctrine is nothing more than a contentious subject that causes divisions in the Body of Christ. Believe what you want but take your contentiousness elsewhere.

This thread is closed.