kashaph

[webmaster]

Exodus 22
18.
|3784| a sorceress
|3808| not
|2421| You must allow to live.

Strong's Number: 3784
Transliterated: kashaph
Phonetic: kaw-shaf'
Text: a primitive root; properly, to whisper a spell, i.e. to inchant or practise magic: -sorcerer, (use) witch(-craft).

A Kashaph is a person who seduces other to his or her will through magical means.
When we realize what a Kashaph really was, and think about how being one meant a commitment to suborning other's freedom and autonomy, then the extreme antipathy we find in Exodus 22 is not surprising. In fact this attitude of being against folk who would steal other's wills from them, is actually in harmony with the Witches' Rede! In a sense a Kashaph is a spiritual rapist, few of us would have trouble with the ancient Hebrew Scriptures repulsion over such as a rapist, even if today we don't feel such a crime deserves a death penalty.
http://members.aol.com/RawnaMoon/bible.html

Qabalistic Dictionary
KASHAPH
Witch, Sorcerer.
http://www.mystic-mysteries-magic.com/m ... ionary.htm


From the research it sounds like people translating a word into something they didn't know much about when they done it and used the best word they could find. That still doesn't mean we don't have the original word and every other place it is used in the Bible to make a honest discernment as to what the word meant. Witch is thus a fair and accurate translation, although not politically correct in today's new religion market.
Other words translated witch or witchcraft are "qesem" which refers to divination, and in the New Testament "pharmakeia", which is literally a charm or a potion. Here's more references for the other words and where they occur.
http://logosresourcepages.org/w-define.html

The other logic you are using is based upon the Webster's New World Hebrew Dictionary and Patrick McKinnion promoting it over the internet. What he is doing is basically taking a word like
doughnuts
and saying they are

dough
[n] a flour mixture stiff enough to knead or roll
[n] informal terms for money

nut
plant: Usually large hard-shelled seed.
artifact: A small square or hexagonal metal block with internal screw thread to be fitted onto a bolt.
quantity: Half the width of an em.
person: A whimsically eccentric person.
person: Someone who is so ardently devoted to something that it resembles an addiction.
body: One of the two male reproductive glands that produce spermatozoa and secrete androgens.

And saying they are
informal terms for money and someone who is devoted to it, thus a doughnut = Someone who loves money just because the words contains the 2 parts.

But when I look up the word doughnuts it says
shape: A toroidal shape.
food: A small ring-shaped friedcake.

Not somebody who loves money.

The Webster's New World Hebrew Dictionary, the term "kashaph", can be broken into two parts: a root word, "kash", meaning, "straw, herb, reed", and "hapaleh", or "casting, bringing down, using."


Here's a bible I would recommend.
http://www.biblelibrary.com/MircoInfo.htm
Morris Literal Translation and Strong's #

[Guest]

The bible it is thought to have occured most its errors in the latin to English translations.
Given the time period of the translations its not really surpriseing
Here are the latin words for witch.

lamia -ae f. [a witch , vampire].
praecantrix -icis f. [a witch].

veneficus -a -um [poisonous , magical]; m. as subst. [a poisoner, sorcerer; a sorceress, witch].

Now as you can see as I post the Latin words for Posioner you will see why it was translated as it was.

Locusta -ae f. [a notorious poisoner , accomplice of Nero].

veneficus -a -um [poisonous , magical]; m. as subst. [a poisoner, sorcerer; a sorceress, witch].

Now the latin term had come about earlier when and you have to go back into political history here.
(yes I know I watch the history channel entirly to much call it an obseession)

When Physicians first started cmming to power and yes they were educated even way back then.
They had a great influance and political power.
Now thier power and influance outside of the citys was greatly threatand by what is known then and now as Midwives.
Now a Days Midwives simply mean a woman who helps with the pregnancy and birth of a child.
In those days it was not the case the local mid wife took on all the roles of a doctor and most herble medication was used.
Thus Physicians as its recorded started pressing for the eradication of thes midwives saying thier techniqes were dangeruos and that they were not healing but posioning thier patiants.
Keep in mind that these midwives were Heathens and I dont mean Heathen as in the Godless term of todays dictionary.
I mean Heathen as in the old term of country dweller.
Heathen was used as a derogatory remark for those who lived in pverty outside the citys.
Since most country dwelling people were indeed pagans the word Heathen came to have a double meaning.
One meaning country dweller.
The other meaning a Godless Pagan as the christians so deemed them.

Pagans were feared of course as witched so the steps to go from herbel healer to witch were rather simple and thus the double definition for posioner and witch being the same.

Its not exacly politicly correct in these days not.
But whats more it can be downright dangeruose there are some loonies out there that take the bible literaly and there are still hundreds upon thousands of suspected witches murdered every year.

Most notibly in Aferica South america and in the east.

This word Kashaph I'm not familer with.
So therefor let me look it up.

Ok here it is! its hebrew or thought to be

In the KJV, the translation of Ex. 22:18 is "Thou Shalt not suffer a Witch to live. The NIV, (a contextual translation), has it as "Thou shalt not suffer a sorcerer to live."

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, it claims the word "witch" in Hebrew as " 3784 kashaph, a prim. root; prop. to whisper a spell, i.e. to enchant or practice magic:--sorcerer, (use) witch (-craft)."

However, in the Webster's New World Hebrew Dictionary, the term "kashaph", can be broken into two parts: a root word, "kash", meaning, "straw, herb, reed", and "hapaleh", or "casting, bringing down, using."

Combined, these words translate into "using/casting herbs/straws/reeds" - one who uses herbs.

So a better translation is "one who uses/has knowledge of herbs".

Hebrew is a contextual language. Words can have a positive or negative meaning based upon context.

Kashaph is not the Hebrew term for witch. The Hebrew term for witchcraft is "keeshoof", meaning sorcery or magic. "Mekhash" means "to bewitch", and the term for a female who practices magic is "mekhashah", whereas the term for a male is "mekhashef", (the "ah" and "ef" suffix denoting gender.)

Note that none of these terms has a similar root to "kashaph". Therefore, the question is, why did a unrelated term like "kashaph" get mistakenly translated into "witch" ?? Easy, terms that denote "knowledge of herbs" have tended to get translated as "witchcraft" in theological writings for nearly 2000 years.

Now we get into the "to live" or "live" part. Strong's lists that word in Ex. 22:18 as 02421 chayah {khaw-yaw'} 1) to live, have life, remain alive, sustain life, live prosperously, live for ever, be quickened, be alive, be restored to life or health

Again, let's look at the Webster's New World.

Since, "ch" does get changed into a "k" in Hebrew, we'll look up the word "khay", or "khayah". Webster's gives the definition as: "living, alive, living among, dwelling, being alive, being full of life."

According to the Hebrew, as backed up by a Hebrew dictionary, the phrase cited, Ex. 22:18, uses a negative context to refer to "one who uses herbs, dwelling/living among you" - i.e. you shall not allow someone who uses herbs in a negative manner, (poisoner), to dwell among you. Which is utterly unrelated to what the KJV says. If the original texts *meant* "witch" or "witchcraft", ("mekhashah" and "keeshoof"), then *why* did it NOT use the Hebrew terms for "witch" or "witchcraft" ?? Instead, the terms it used, being unrelated to "witch" or "witchcraft", were then *mistakenly* translated as "witch" and "witchcraft".

I would tend to agree why would the hebrew word for witch not be used?


http://www.templeofbast.com/WitchToLive.html
pagan web sight

http://www.awarenessshop.com/KnowledgeBase/biblicalreferenc.html

Christian web sight
this one is rather good and has at least a semi insight into history as well.
Understand that I do not always post urls just of my religian or of my god I belive thats very bias if both sides cant aurgue the case then its compleatly moot.

When we realize what a Kashaph really was, and think about how being one meant a commitment to suborning other's freedom and autonomy, then the extreme antipathy we find in Exodus 22 is not surprising. In fact this attitude of being against folk who would steal other's wills from them, is actually in harmony with the Witches' Rede! In a sense a Kashaph is a spiritual rapist, few of us would have trouble with the ancient Hebrew Scriptures repulsion over such as a rapist, even if today we don't feel such a crime deserves a death penalty

Yes it is entierly agasint the wiccan rede to force things like that.
For them to come willingly though it is not.
Though I do disagree to have practiced that in old times would have indeed ment death for the practacer even amount thier own people it was seen as huge offence to the sanctaty of the spirit.
Of course today we dont kill people for that anymore but I would imagine only because we dont wish to go to jail ourselves.
but you must remeber that the hebrew word Kashaph did NOT mean witch it ment someone with the knowlage of herbs.
The female name for a witch int he hebrew language was mekhashah
And the word for a male witch was mekhashef.

The chief thing to remeber is that the word overall Kashaph did not in any way shape or form refer to a witch or a religian only the use and or knowlage of herbs.
The Hebrew word for witchcraft was keeshoof

From the research it sounds like people translating a word into something they didn't know much about when they done it and used the best word they could find. That still doesn't mean we don't have the original word and every other place it is used in the Bible to make a honest discernment as to what the word meant. Witch is thus a fair and accurate translation, although not politically correct in today's new religion market.

Thats the problem
How many other best words they could find have impacted us so hard with so much belife?
Witch is not at all a fair discernment the word had nothing to do with religian or witchcraft at all just herblism which most people practice and not all witches do.

The other logic you are using is based upon the Webster's New World Hebrew Dictionary

Well actually it was based on the collage worl dictionary I detest websters dictionarys.

The Webster's New World Hebrew Dictionary, the term "kashaph", can be broken into two parts: a root word, "kash", meaning, "straw, herb, reed", and "hapaleh", or "casting, bringing down, using."

you have the first part right Kash does indeed mean basicly plants
But how on earth a plant user got translated to witch I just cant quite figure out.
Everyone uses plants I mean if you dont your soups must be rather bland!
Not to mention all those teas and candys we have all used for hundreds of years.

I already have enough Bibles I think I got one from baptist church one from catholic and one from the mormans (which is freaky)
And some that are about 3 times my age catholic of course because thats what most my family was.
Between those I think I have a pretty good referance point though I wish the type wasnt so itty bitty

[Crystal]

Whoops that was me forgot to log in!

[webmaster]

Other places the word is used.

Kashaph Verb
Da 2:2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the kashaph, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.

2 Chronicles
2Ch 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used kashaph craft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

De 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a kashaph,

Ex 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the kashaph: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
Ex 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a kashaph to live.

Kesheph (Noun Masculine)
Na 3:4 All because of the many harlotries of the harlot, The charming one, the mistress of Kesheph, Who sells nations by her harlotries And families by her Kesheph.

Mic 5:12 "I will cut off Kesheph from your hand, And you will have fortunetellers no more.

Isa 47:9 "But these two things shall come on you suddenly in one day: Loss of children and widowhood. They shall come on you in full measure In spite of your many Kesheph, In spite of the great power of your spells.
Isa 47:12 "Stand fast now in your spells And in your many Kesheph With which you have labored from your youth; Perhaps you will be able to profit, Perhaps you may cause trembling.

2Ki 9:22 And it came about, when Joram saw Jehu, that he said, "Is it peace, Jehu?" And he answered, "What peace, so long as the harlotries of your mother Jezebel and her Keshephcrafts are so many?"

Kashshaph Noun Masculine
Jer 27:9 "But as for you, do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your soothsayers, or your Kashshaph, who speak to you, saying, 'You shall not serve the king of Babylon.'

Hebrew kesem, always used of false prophets and evokers of the dead), an observer of times, (Hebrew, anan, the use of hidden or magic arts), an enchanter, (Hebrew nachash, a whispering soothsayer), or a witch, (Hebrew kashaph, one who uses enchantments), or a charmer, (Hebrew chabar cheber, literally to join a joining, i.e. those who conduct such sessions), or a consulter of familiar spirits, (Hebrew shaal, an inquirer into these things), or a wizard, (Hebrew yiddeoni, one who professes to know these things, and always used in Scripture in a bad sense), or a necromancer..." (Hebrew darash el hametim metim, to inquire after the dead), can change the outcome of our lives once we have died. "For all that do these things are an abomination, (Hebrew toebah, the word is used of anything impure, illiicit, and belonging to the worship of idols), unto the Lord." Deuteronomy 18:10-12.
http://www.messengers-of-truth.org/Articles/greek.htm

The Leningrad Codex
The Leningrad Codex, or Leningradensis, is the oldest complete Hebrew bible still preserved. While there are older parts of Bibles, or biblical books, still in existence, there is no older manuscript which contains the whole Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament in Hebrew). The Leningrad Codex is considered one of the best examples of the Masoretic text.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educat ... odex.shtml

The "Greek Bible", the "Hebrew Bible", and the "Dead See Scrolls":
http://religion-cults.com/Judaism/escript.htm

Biblical References
http://www.awarenessshop.com/KnowledgeB ... erenc.html


St Augustine, Thomas Aquinas & the Witch Craze
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage ... ch9ex1.htm

Just about every sort of unexplained misfortune was blamed on witches. If a cow failed to give milk, a witch was blamed. The witch could be anyone the accuser disliked or distrusted, or anyone who was unusual or had been seen near the cow. Identification and execution of the witch were believed to reverse the troublesome condition. It was believed impotence could be cured if the witch causing the problem could be found and punished or killed. The justification for this was that Thomas Aquinas had earlier written into church records that a witch was likely to be to blame if a man's penis wilted.[40] King James I of England believed that plots and supernatural forces threatened his life, and it was he who commissioned the first translation of the Bible containing the word "witch." Exodus 22:18: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," was used to help justify the murdering of hundreds of thousands of women. This is despite the fact that as early as 1584, Reginal Scot pointed out that the Hebrew word in question, Kashaph, is not accurately translated as "witch," and would be better rendered as "poisoner." He was ignored, and the witch burning went on.[41]

Who is Reginal Scot?
http://iws.ccccd.edu/rcoltman/NTPA/Barnhart%20paper%20(1997).html

Hume had some knowledge of the long history of the debates between Catholics and Protestants regarding miracles and superstitions. Britain's King James I, who had been King lames VI of Scotland, not only regarded himself as a worthy theologian but, upon ascending the English throne, commanded all copies of Reginal Scot's Discovery of Witchcraft to be burned. After describing in some detail the current beliefs in magic, sorcery, soothsaying, witchcraft and the like, Reginal Scot proceeded to show them to be the works of deceit and trickery. Scot's work, first appearing in 1584, had made a profound impact in England and on the continent. As the Houdini of his day, Scot exposed apparitions, fortunetelling, crystal- gazing, interpretations of dreams, all seeming miracles accomplished by legerdemain, and all the putative deeds of witches. Taking advantage of Protestant antipathy toward the Catholic hierarchy, Scot labeled the discredited beliefs as popish frauds.

The Discoverie of Witchcraft by Reginald Scot
http://www.conjuror.com/archives/discov ... verie.html

SCOTT FAMILY HISTORY
http://users.iafrica.com/s/sc/scottwwl/History2.html

[webmaster]

Word Study
http://members.cox.net/hughdelong2/stud ... bibl50.htm

ASTROLOGY - (Hebrews = ashshaph) is plainly prohibited, as in Moloch worship, Saturn worship, the worship of the golden calf, and the worship of the host of heaven - Deut. 18:9-11; 4:19; 17:2-7; 2 Kings 21:6; 2 Chr. 33:6; Isa. 47:13; Jer. 8:1-3; 10:2; 19:13; Dan. 1:20; 2:2,10,27; 5:7,11,15; Zephaniah 1:4-6; 2 Kings 17:16; 23:4; Acts 7:42-43


SOOTHSAYING - (Hebrews = 'anan' , "to observe the clouds", and 'gezar' = 'seer') is prohibited. 'Anan' is said by some to mean 'augury,' - observing the movements of animals and birds," while 'gezar' literally means "cutter," - i.e., dividing the heavens or cutting animals open to examine the live and entrails. Jer. 27:9; Isa. 57:3 (sorceress), Isa. 2:6; Micah 5:12; Dan. 2:27; 4:7; 5:7,11; Lev. 19:26; Deut. 18:10-14; 2 Kings 21:6; 2 Chron. 33:6


DIVINATION - (hebrews qosem; greek = puthen) which is knowledge by direct interrogation of the spirits. Is forbidden. This would prohibit cartomancy (divination by card laying) ornithomancy (study of the activity of birds to foretell future); studying the arrangements of dregs in a cup, the interpretation of dreams, rhabdomancy and crystallomancy *using mirror or crystal ball, or pond water) to see into the future. Deut. 18:10-14; Numbers 22:9; 23:23; 2 Kings 17:17; Jer. 14:14; Ezek. 12:24 Ezek. 13:6-9; 21:22-29; 22:38; 1 Sam. 6:2; 15:23; Isa. 44:25; Jer. 27:9; 29:8; Zechariah 10:2; Micah 3:6-11; Acts 16:16f; Genesis 44:1-5.


ENCHANTMENTS (Hebrew = nachash) is closely akin to 'snake,' and perhaps signifies a snake-charmer or one who fascinates like a snake\. The word is used in connection with Joseph's divining cup (Gen. 44:1-4) and its use i akin to the more modern crystal-gazing with the hypnotic state induced by prolonged staring. Gen. 30:27 (Laban's knowledge attributed to this), Deut. 18:10-14; Acts 19:19; 2 Kings 17:17; 2 Kings 21:6; 2 Chron. 33:6; Numbers 23:23 and 24:1 (balaam found enchantment and divination impotent against the people of God - 1 Kings 21:30).


HEPATOSCOPY - divination by 'studying the liver of an animal) - akin to haruscopy, the study of the entrails of the animal, is referred to in Ezek. 21:21.


RHAbDOMANCY - cp. Hosea 1:12; Ezek. 8:17 - divination by a rod or wand - especially for discovering underground water or metal.


TERAPHIM - household idols (sometimes life-size - 1 Sam. 19:13,16). and sometimes miniature (Gen. 31:34-35). Involved was either ancestor worship ((today crystal balls are used more often to try to communicate with such ancestors) - anyway is condemned - 1 Sam. 15:23; Ezek. 21:21; Zech. 10:2; 1 Kings 23:245; Gen. 31:19-35; 1 Sam. 19:13-19; (here called images), Judges 17:5; 18:14-20; Hosea 3:4.


WIZARD - (yidh'oni = "one who knows") is a male or female sorcerer - Lev. 19:31; 20:6, 27; Deut. 18:10-11; 1 Sam. 28:3, 9; 2 Kings 21:6; 23:24-26; 2 Chron. 33:6; Isa. 8:19; 19:3.


CHARMER - Heb = chabar, "one who inflicts a spell, one who binds with magical charms. Acts 19:13-20 (the Ephesian letters were likely the magical formula used to 'charm') - Isa. 19:3; 47:9,12; Deut. 18;11 (spells), and Psalm 58:5.


AMULETS - Hebrew = kemia', something tied to a person, and lehashim = "something whispered or muttered over". were objects that had been blessed and then were worn as a good-luck charm. Gems, rings, herbs, seeds, and bracelets have been so used. The bible's attitude toward such is always negative - Isa. 3:16-26 (amulets worn by women, moonlets and sunlets are like that which is still seen on Arab girls), Isa. 3:20 (LXX has peridexis, armlets for the right arm), Prov. 17:8; Eccl. 10:11; Gen. 35:4 (Jacob burned amulets at bethel).


MAGICIANS (Hebrews = chartom) were men who used occult rituals and processes designed to control or influence the course of nature or to dominate men by the aid of supernatural power. It is uniformly condemned. (cp. also sorcerer). Gen. 41:8, 24 - Pharaoh called magicians to interpret his dreams), Ex. 7:11, 24 (magicians of Egypt opposed God, and couldn't work a genuine miracle ); Ex. 8:18 (here is 'lehashim" - to wrap or, or muffle -- there was some hidden element or trickery to their deeds of magic), Ex. 8:7, 19; 9:11; Can. 1:20 (the king found Daniel with the Holy Spirit to be ten times better in every matter of wisdom and understanding than all the magicians and conjurers in his realm); Dan. 2:2, 10, 17; 4:7, 9; 5:11.


CONSULTERS OF FAMILIAR SPIRITS - Heb. obh; Greek - engastrimuthos) - everywhere condemned. Lev. 19:31; 20:6, 27 (the spirit dwelt in the medium?); Deut. 18:11; 1 Sam. 28:3, 7-9; 2 Kings 21:6; 23:24-26; 2 Chron. 33:6; Isa. 8:19ff; 19:3; 29:4.


NECROMANCY (Hebrews = darash 'el ha-methim = to call up spirits of the dead. Is likewise prohibited. The word means to converse with the dead for purpose of consultation or divination. Deut. 18:11; 1 Sam. 15:23; Ezek. 21:21; Zech. 10:2; Isa. 8:19; 1 Sam. 28:7; Lev. 19:31; 1 Chron. 10:13; (the passage affirms that King Saul died bECAUSE he consulted a medium!!!).


SORCERY - greek = pharmekeia from which we get 'pharmacy' or drugs. See Gal. 5:20; Rev. 9:21; 18:23; 21:8; 22:15.


SORCERY - hebrews, kashshaph, greek = magike) would involve what we today have come to call levitation, apports, materializations, psycokinesis, and the like. God's attitude toward those who see supernatural power and knowledge from the spirits is clearly delineated in these verses: Ex. 7:11; 22:18; Isa. 47:9,12, Jer 27:9; 2 Kings (:22 (Jezebel is condemned as a sorceress), 2 Chron. 33:6; Deut. 18:10-11; Micah 5:12; Nahum 3:4; Malachi 3:5; Acts 8:9-13 (Simon could see that satan's 'miracles' were second rate - frauds). Acts 13:8-11; 19:1`9 (where the greek is periergeia).

[Crystal]

I dont think any one can aurgue that the word appers in the bible many times.
What we can aurgue though is was the word used correctly?
Or was it the wrong word used in place of the real word when it was translated either through error or by mistake of an under educated scholer of the times?

I ahve redone your quote here and inserted the true tyranslation of the word kashaph in its place.
Remeber the word kashaph had the meaning of a user of plants

Kashaph Verb
Da 2:2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the Herbilists, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.

(ok why call a herblist for your dreams?? Simple one form of divination was that of reading leaves)
It was clearly prohibited by the bible.

2 Chronicles
2Ch 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used herb craft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

(Herbcraft is what it is called when one uses herbs for what is known as magical purpouses its not the same as witchcraft.

De 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a herblist

Why on earth would you use a herblist at a fire you might ask?
Well if you have ever burnt Hellbore or many other herbs you would know they cause one to see (visions)
Herbs can also be used to cure or kill like many things it has a good and a bad side.

Ex 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the Herblists: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

Herblists like magicians were seen as something not natural even then and by thier own people they were seen as something more than human and feared.
When really all it was they knew how to use plants or slight of hand or how to tap into a Phycic ability.
For those who used plants were often seen as going agasint the will of god specialy if they happened to cure an illness.
It was agasint god's will which is where it was often seen as an evil practice.
(boy what does god think about life support these days?)

Ex 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner/assasin to live

you might ask why I said posioner or assasine its because in those days the only people who could make posion were those who knew how to use herbs and plants such as Nightshade to create posion therefor the only people who could make posions were the kashaph or herblists.

I notice you keep mixing the word Sorcerous and Witch up.
There were not back then the same nor are they the same today.
It is like saying a christian is a satanist they are the polor opposits of each other.
Now its true they follow the same religian that of christianity..they just follow differant sides but they are NOT the same.
Thats something that witches have had a long standing battle against was the seperation of these two words they were not put together as one and the same untill the christian era.
These two dont even follow the same religian thier only connection is that of useing what is known as witchcraft.
But that dosnt make them the same as many of you no doubt know.

You see a witch can not be defined as good or evil because they are a balance of both and an acknowlagment of both .
The term white witch is false made up during the burning times to convince christians that those they allowed to live only used thier abilitys for good.
They were often called enlightened pagans.

Now a Soceror....or what might be better called a mind controler or a rapist of souls and free will.
An abomination if you will.
Today the only admited ones are those who mix Satanism and witchcraft together.
Though these may be others they are shuned by the wiccan community.

It is as annoying as calling wiccans worshiper of satan whom we dont even belive is a real entity.

Now lets clarify one other thing.
Witchcraft is something unto itself many christians practice witchcraft were many Wiccans do not.
Wicca /wicce is a religian.
Witchcraft is not a religian.
It is the use of magic or herblism.

kashaph the word itself has niether the prefex or the ending to even come close either the word Witch OR Sorcerous.
Though I have found christian sights that say this is the definition.
Problem?? I cant find any sight that ISNT christian that supports this definition not a dictionary and not a non christian or nutrel sight.

By definition if you have ever used peppermint tea to calm your tummy or lull you to sleep you are practicing witchcraft.
Its not what the movies make it out to be surly but I think we all knew that.

Your link to Scot is broken BTW.

But he was perhaps the only voice of reason in an era of fear crazed superstition.

There is a billboard I see around here once in awhile that always makes me smile put up by the christian coalition I belive.
It says.

Thou shalt not murder thing ..I ment that.... God

I think back then the few christians who did think they were doing wrong were to afraid to stand up for fear of being accused themselves.

As far as Pagan documents go I belive the records indicat less than 300 burnings where that of actuall Witches and the rest innocent christians or unknowns.

One mistranslated line in the bible caused the deaths of thousands upon thousands of mostly christians and still continues to this day.
Personaly I wouldnt defend it at all but condem it and insist it be put right.
The average death of suspected witches still tops over 1000 a year at least most of them put to death are actually christians killed by thier own people.

Would you like to see my familys History?
Ironicly I hail from Clan MacDuff in fact up untill my (blood) mothers birth the name Duff still with held.
This is my biological History not my adoptive one.
It is a Gaelic Name and its motto was always Deus juvat or God assists.
A family of Kings and wars with everything in life Tied into God though of course being Irish to begin with the belifes of the Old religian still clung even to this day.
http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/m/macduff2.html

Not that my family isnt without its wellknown practicers of witchcraft but it was mostly a waring family in the name of God....how ironic.

Kesheph (Noun Masculine)

Well its not excaly a Masculine word its undefined as far as that goes but its actuall definition is as follows via the hebrew dictionary.

03785 kesheph {keh'-shef}
from 03784 ; n m
See: TWOT - 1051a


AV - witchcraft 4, sorcery 2; 6

1) sorcery, witchcraft

Its used correctly in your quote from the bible but it has to be looked at several times because of the hebrew words often meaning more than one thing.

I want you to note and note strongly that the hebrew had thier own word for a Sorceror alone.
It is as follows.

03786 kashshaph {kash-shawf'}
from 03784 ; n m
See: TWOT - 1051b


AV - sorcerer 1; 1

1) sorcerer

there must be a reason they have thier very own word .
And I understand that it LOOKs very simaler to the word kashaph but as you can see the ending of the word is very differant.
The prefix of the word allows for the word witch or herblist but the ending does not.
Therefor its more than possible that the word for witch/ herblist had sorcerous taged on it at a later date.
Sort of like the word faggot in our dictinary used to mean kindling but now also has the definition of a gay individual.

or a witch, (Hebrew kashaph, one who uses enchantments),

Hebrew is a contextual language. Words can have a positive or negative meaning based upon context.

Kashaph is not the Hebrew term for witch. The Hebrew term for witchcraft is "keeshoof", meaning sorcery or magic. "Mekhash" means "to bewitch", and the term for a female who practices magic is "mekhashah", whereas the term for a male is "mekhashef", (the "ah" and "ef" suffix denoting gender.)
But none of those words are Kashaph not the female version of the word witch and not the male.
Nor the word witchcraft or anything.

Therefor in order for your stment to be true you would have to use the word Keeshoof not Kashaph

Now I CAN find definition of the word Kashaph being the word for witch but I can not find a single place that is not a christian sight with the word being witch.

That could simply be a case of the sheep following the sheep there its been mized meaning for so long people belive it.
But as far as I can find the Hebrew Dictionary does not support the word as meaning witch in any way shape or form.

On a side note and just because i'm so happy about it.
I have beaten Diabeties! my blood glucouse levels are now in normal range without Medications! yippie!

[webmaster]

The Link you asked about now works.
http://iws.ccccd.edu/rcoltman/NTPA/Barnhart%20paper%20(1997).html
Also I can find no references that Reginal Scot ever done the following. I am still looking for backup on this.

This is despite the fact that as early as 1584, Reginal Scot pointed out that the Hebrew word in question, Kashaph, is not accurately translated as "witch," and would be better rendered as "poisoner."

I emailed the author for what was the Hebrew word used here for witchcraft in Isaiah just out of curiosity since this is dated for 100bc and should reflect at least the correct word used at that time.

The 2 Dead Sea scrolls of Isaiah, have proved to be of major importance in confirming the Masoretic text of the OT. They provide conclusive evidence of the reliability of the OT text as it has come down to us, and show that, for all practical purposes, it is identical with the text as it existed in Christ's day. 1QIs is complete but contains a number of scribal errors and is not as well written as other scrolls from the collection. 1QIs-b is far less complete than 1QIs-a, but superior in quality. Chapters 37 to 41 and 43 to 66 are fairly well preserved. It contains remarkably few scribal errors, and is practically identical with the Masoretic text. Of the relatively few variant readings the more important ones occur in chs 38:13; 41:11; 43:6; 53:11; 60:19, 21; 63:5; 66:17. Another, and even more fragmentary, text of Isaiah found in Cave 4 at
Khirbet Qumran resembles the text of the LXX more closely than it does the Masoretic text.


(Chapter 47 continued) Come down, and sit upon the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the earth: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for
21. you shall no longer be called soft and dainty. (2.) Take the millstones, and grind meal: roll back the veils, make bare
22. the skirt, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. (3.) Your nakedness shall be uncovered, your reproach also shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and neither
23. will I meet you as a man. (4.) Our Redeemer, YHWH of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel. (5.) Sit mute, and go {&waw&}
24. into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for you shall no more be called, The Mistress of Kingdoms. (6.) I was angry with my people,
25. and I have polluted my inheritance, and gave them into your hand: you showed them no mercy; on the elderly you heavily laid your yoke ( See 9:2 for the importance of this word.)
26. greatly. (7.). And you said, I shall be a heroine forever: you did not take these things to your heart, neither did you remember
27. the latter end of it. (8.) And now hear this, O voluptuous, who dwells securely, who says in your heart, I am, and there is no one
28. else; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I see [m...know] bereavement:{&waw&} (9.) But these two things shall come to you in a moment in one day,
29. bereavement and widowhood: in their completeness they shall come upon you for the multitude of your witchcraft, and for the great abundance of your enchantments. 10 For you have trusted
30. in your wickedness: you have said, No one sees me. Your wisdom and your knowledge has turned you around; and you have said in your heart, I am,
31. and there is no one else beside me. (11.) And evil shall come upon you; you shall not know from her origin, and disaster shall fall upon you; you shall not be able to cover it

Column XL Isaiah 47:11 to 49:4

1. (Continue Chapter 47:11) and holocaust shall come upon you suddenly, and you shall not know. (12.) Stand {&waw&} please with your enchantments, and with the multitude of your witchcraft, in which you toiled
2. from your youth; [+until today+] [Q omits the rest "if it be that you shall be able to profit, if it be that you may prevail."] (13.) [not in Q "you are wearied"] in the multitude of your counsels. Let them stand please, and let them save you, the astrologers, those seeing visions in stars,
3. the predictors of monthly knowledge, from these things that shall come on you. (14.) Behold, they shall be like chaff; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver their souls
4. from the hand of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm them, nor a light to sit opposite it. (15.) Thus shall they be to you with whom you have labored your merchants from your youth:
5. each man to his passing, they shall wander astray; none shall save you. (PP)

This is a directory of pages of the Great Isaiah Scroll of the Qumran community. This scroll (which has been named by scholars as "Q") is dated at 100 BC.
The Translation of the Great Isaiah Scroll
http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qa-tran.htm

Isaiah Commentary: You will find material here not found in other commentaries presented in a style that anyone interested in Scripture can understand. The discussion of Hebrew terms, when cited, is made as clear as possible for an English reader.
http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/isa46-47.htm

Some quick facts
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html



It would also be good to leave them blank until we get to the truth of it?

Da 2:2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the _______, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.

2Ch 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used _______ craft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

De 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a _______,

Ex 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the _______: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

Ex 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a _______ to live.

Na 3:4 All because of the many harlotries of the harlot, The charming one, the mistress of _______, Who sells nations by her harlotries And families by her _______.

Mic 5:12 "I will cut off _______ from your hand, And you will have fortunetellers no more.

Isa 47:9 "But these two things shall come on you suddenly in one day: Loss of children and widowhood. They shall come on you in full measure In spite of your many _______, In spite of the great power of your spells.

Isa 47:12 "Stand fast now in your spells And in your many _______ With which you have labored from your youth; Perhaps you will be able to profit, Perhaps you may cause trembling.

2Ki 9:22 And it came about, when Joram saw Jehu, that he said, "Is it peace, Jehu?" And he answered, "What peace, so long as the harlotries of your mother Jezebel and her _______crafts are so many?"

Jer 27:9 "But as for you, do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your soothsayers, or your _______, who speak to you, saying, 'You shall not serve the king of Babylon.'

This 1911 encyclopedia is filled with historical information that is still relevant today.
http://6.1911encyclopedia.org/w/wi/witchcraft.htm

[Crystal]

I belive that witchcraft is a ok term for many scriptures in the bible.
But what one but understand is witchcraft is many differant things according to the lore of your country.

For instance useing herbs in certain ways such as healing or to posion is witchcraft of course.
So many passages in the bible could very well use that and be correct.
but witchcraft is not held by witches alone and is doen by an alarmign amount of christians both today and in the past.
When people think of wotchcraft they think of graveyards,chanting and fires ect.
But most of it is far more subtle at least it is if your learning hails from Europe.
Africa.Australia and some other places its very dramatic and obvious.
I havent had much of a chance to read over the Dead Sea Scrolls.
I'm still under the impression much of it is still not released to us or hidden.

Also I can find no references that Reginal Scot ever done the following. I am still looking for backup on this.
Quote:
This is despite the fact that as early as 1584, Reginal Scot pointed out that the Hebrew word in question, Kashaph, is not accurately translated as "witch," and would be better rendered as "poisoner."

I cant find it on the internet but the referance and points where given on the history channel about a year ago I wish I could rember them offhand

I emailed the author for what was the Hebrew word used here for witchcraft in Isaiah just out of curiosity since this is dated for 100bc and should reflect at least the correct word used at that time.

Has he gotten back to you yet on what that word was?


The dead sea scrolls............
Ahh as a child I would have given anything to read them.
My father told me they actually contradicted much of the modern bible .
I recall asking my paster about them and he told me the devil planted many things on earth to sway his people.

Made me really want to read them that did.
But from all I understand on them they elaberated on the storys not exacly contradict though they still dont contain the missing years of Jesus from the time he was a child to the time he was a man.
I'm most interested in those years.

But not shocking as fragmented as they were.
I have said many times I belive the Bible is a good acocunt of old history (if blown out of porpotiona bit)
But a good account of history none the less.

The bible was originaly written in a Arabic language was it not?
Then later translated to Hebrew then Latin?
I think to get a acuret thought of what any of the questionable words ment we would have to look at each language in turn.
See how the words progressed.
translations are not simple and sometimes improvistions must be made.
Hebrew to english alone is difficult .
But English is rooted in Latin.

It would also be good to leave them blank until we get to the truth of it?

While I dont mind that I would like to know what and if the word swe are leaveing blank were indeed the same exact word over and over.

Because the text reads broken with the exact same word over and over again no matter what word we use.
Hebrew was a unforgiving language as far as mistakes go like japanses its a mix of not only letters but inflections for the meaning.
Must as english has words that can mean several differant things at once and we have to judge what it use when used in context with other words.
We run into a problem though when many meanings can be taken from the surrounding words.

Take this line for instance.

Ex 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the _______: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

Witch dosnt fit.
its broken because wise men of the time were known as witches.
herblist could fit..but it would be a odd sentance.
Sorceror could fit but why not use the word for Sorceror alone?

This one here could fit ANY of the words.

Ex 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a _______ to live.

But given the biblical times and the way it was written I would tend to have to think it refered to someone who had taken another life.
Since thats really the only biblical offence that could earn the death penalty.
That or Adultery.
but Since the Hebrew word has nothing to do with Adultery we can cross that one out I think.
Herblist? that just wouldnt make sence
Posioner makes sence though it would be someone who had taken life an offence to God.
Witch?
Its possible but God never deemed Witchcraft to be punishable by death in other scriptures just that it was destable to the Lord.
if witchcraft was not punishable by death then why would being a witch be?
Again its possible but goes agasint much of the bible because christians were not allowed to judge those who were not christians.
And by its very definition biblicly a witch could not be a christian.

De 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a _______,

This like again I think Sorceror would fit.
But witches have been confused with Sorcerors for so long its possible witch could fit to given people have always been confused over that one.

Na 3:4 All because of the many harlotries of the harlot, The charming one, the mistress of _______, Who sells nations by her harlotries And families by her _______.

You got me on that one I just dont know.
To be a witch though and this has always been such.
Is to hold ones body as a temple.
To abuse it as this like states would have been a terrible sacralige agasint ones self.

Mic 5:12 "I will cut off _______ from your hand, And you will have fortunetellers no more.

you see that line I would think the word would have to be something like the word Magic.
But magic and witch are no ware near close to being the same word in hebrew.

yes maybe seting them blank is a good idea.
But the bibles of the world wont go blank on unknown words.
I dont discount the possiblity of the word witch being used on some of those staments.
What i DO discount that is the same word applying to all of them it simply cant not be written correctly if thats the case because it would make no sence.

Hopefully I understood all those web pages you posted takes me some time to read and even longer to put the letters in correct order to answer!

[webmaster]

Well mainly all this is just research on the Occult.
Remember, you was the one who brought up this subject


Well this is the email

The Hebrew word in both the masoretic text and in the Qumran scroll is identical in spelling. the form "k sh ph y k" is pronounced keshaphayik It is a plural word with a 2fsing. suffix thus "your sorceries" or your "witchcrafts" The root of the word is kesheph (or witchcraft) the ayik ending = the y is plural construct and the final K is 2 fem sing suffix = your.

[Crystal]

Technicly speaking of course you brought it up not I
I cant create forums

Witchcraft as a word used for all those lines now THAT i can accept.
Witchcraft as a word was used to cover any and all magical or divination things and wasnt seculare to the word witch.
But the word witchcraft itself covered all pagan religians and thier traditions so that makes perfect sence that the word witchcraft would be used to cover all things from Summer Soltice to reading tea leaves.

but what about the original bible?

[webmaster]

The original Bible said a root of kashaph as backed up by the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Text. We shall find the true meaning of this word but first we need to take a small detour here and find out about all the New Hebrew words that are distorting the facts here.

I am curious as to where you got keeshoof from?

The correct wording is Kishuf not keeshoof when doing research on the word. The only people using the keeshoof word is a small number of wicca websites. Don't believe me type both in a search engine like google. See from here is where the truth starts coming out, 1 little small piece at a time. Kabbalah also start coming into the picture. It would seem that a whole new set of words has been created which is where your sources for the "New Hebrew" are probaly getting the current meanings from. From the new topics all this will be revealed.

Some new topics that will be started.
1) Kishuf - Jewish Meanings of the word and lots of old text to explain it.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... 0875#10875

2) Kabbalah - Qabalah (Kabbalah is an aspect of Jewish mysticism which runs around in circles trying to find loopholes in the Law to practice witchcraft.) Lots of new Hebrew words comes from there.
3) Current Jewish words for the Occult
4) Sanhedrin, Maharal and talmud Junk and how they are effecting the Hebrew Language and the Occult.
5) The Zohar (circa 1200 CE) Where the Lilith Garbage came from.

[Naruto]

Well, lucky for me that I don't influence people using magical means. Just psychic ones.

[webmaster]

Same thing, just different names.

[Naruto]

Heh, if you knew anything about it, then you wouldn't say that. But, alas, you've chosen differently. But it's your choice. Unlike certain religions, I won't tell you that the devil is controlling you, or that you're evil.