Reprobate mind?

[Aineo]

Rom 1:18-32

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
KJV

This section of Scripture is a powerful indictment against, as Paul states in vs. 18 “all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men”. To fully understand this teaching we need to break it into sections. The preamble is verses 18-23 where Paul describes an idolatrous society. The next three sections are preceded with the phrase “God gave them over” or “God gave them up” so lets look at these individually.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Why did God give them up” to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts; because of verses 18-23. At this period of Roman history Roman matrons who had more freedom than most cultures were divorcing and remarrying as their desires dictated. Roman men were engaging in all forms sexual immorality. Rome as a republic was a moral although idolatrous society. As Rome became a world power, imported foreign gods, philosophies, and slaves to run their homes and educate their children they lost their moral values. In other words, heterosexual morality was tossed out the window in favor of “what feels good do it.”

The next section is:

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

For what cause did God give them up to homosexuality? Because Rome at the time of Paul had abandoned all morality, had allowed foreigners to educate their children using foreign philosophies, and because they worshipped a pantheon of gods that promoted sexual perversions.

The next section is:

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This section applies to all who would live ungodly and unrighteous lives denying God as creator.

You can see this same progression in America today. Daytime soap operas introduced “free sex” into our living rooms in the 1950’s; the 60’s generation threw morality out the window in favor of “free love” or “drugs, sex, and rock and roll”; in the 19 70’s the Supreme Court legalized abortion, the APA declared homosexuality a viable alternate lifestyle; in the 1990’s we had a President who legitimized gay theology by honoring the founders of the UFMCC and Soul Force by inviting them to the White House; lied about an affair with an intern; a congress who has allowed the Supreme Court to make laws they don’t have the guts to oppose; and in the 21st century gay marriage is being legalized and promoted by heterosexuals in nations worldwide and within the Christian Church.

So whom did God give over to a reprobate mind? “All ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.”

But Paul does not stop with the unsaved, he continues with:

Rom 2:1-4
2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? KJV

The church has capped the salt shaker and put their light under a bushel for decades and then wonder why political power in this country has shifted to the liberal left. Churches are building Christian life centers so their members “won’t be contaminated by the world”. Well, we are to “contaminate” the world with the gospel, but we can’t do that when we sit in our pews and Christian life centers complaining about a world going to hell in a hand basket. Evangelical churches have ignored Jesus’ teaching on divorce by solemnizing second, third, even fourth marriages after a “no fault” divorce.

We preach “repent” to the unsaved when Paul states “the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance”. How can the unsaved repent until they know of and accept the fact of the “goodness of God”? They can’t! So we judge those who don’t accept the Bible by using the Bible as an offensive weapon. The sword of the Spirit is the word of God and is a defensive weapon to protect believers against the wiles of Satan.

The Greek word translated “reprobate” actually means “counterfeit, depraved, unapproved, or rejected”. We live in a society that is depraved in many aspects of life not the least of which is “not feeding the poor and needy” and promoting sexual immorality through TV, movies, and music, no fault divorce, significant others in lieu of spouses, and promoting homosexuality as a viable alternate lifestyle.

The acceptance even promotion of homosexuality is always the death knell of any society. This trend is moving from Europe to Canada and now into the United States as churches deny the authority, supremacy and sovereignty of God and have started to worship the “creature” (human philosophy and psychology, animals rights, etc.) in lieu of the Creator. France is moving to make being an evangelical Christian and teaching Christianity a criminal offense. So pray the “Lord of the harvest will send laborers in the field” (Matthew 9:38 ) as the time is ripe to reap the last harvest

I have heard Christians say that since homosexuals have been given over to a “reprobate mind” it is useless to preach the gospel to them. Why? Lets get real folks, all unbelievers have a unapproved or reprobate mind, which is why Jesus commands us to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin and the gay community needs the gospel as much as the rest of the world.

In Matthew Jesus instruction to the apostles is to “make disciples” (Matthew 28:19). How do you disciple an individual? You teach them the word of God. Where many churches and Christians fail is being mentors or teachers of God’s word. I was saved at the age of 10. I became a new creation since my past became null and void and in a sense I became a newborn babe. But, the denomination I was raised in did not teach doctrine, or the word of God they taught church history and simple Bible stories. They gave me pabulum not meat and I was never equipped (discipled) to face life with the full armor of God, so I strayed for 28 years. It took the Holy Spirit to do what the church failed to do and He did His job.

The institutional church has not learned much over the last 50 years since most people who fill pews are taught a social gospel that does not equip them to be effective ministers of the gospel. Even evangelical churches emphasize their traditional doctrine in lieu of full Biblical truth. Is it any wonder that God will soon call 144,000 messianic Jews to finish the job the church has failed to do over the last 2,000 years?

[_mike_]

I agree fully with you. Most churches have this stand of, "We will sit safely between our church walls, and await the end time and all will be allright by then". but they hardly ever tred out into the world to preach the gospel, gods love.
My church does try to step out in the world and preach the gospel, it equips people with ways to preach the gospel to others and that is great!
I'd just wish more churches would do that, instead of staying in their "dusty" churches.

[neohuman]

my church i used to go was as cruppeted inside as the world outside.
the paster used to use the bible to press his ideas, and he was a paster not a clut leader. there were arranged marages, and home schooling(set me a year behind in my studdies), no one was allowed to play games, talk to anyone, or have friends outside the church,
Holloween was cut off( he hid in the churches basement), anythign greater then a g movie we could not see.
i was rased with all the vilont games, movies and music and i am fine. smart, and educated.

[bygrace]

Aineo....all I can say is YES and AMEN. God bless you.

[wigginsmum]

Neo - what kind of church were you in? Bits of it sound similar to my first church (ex-Brethren turned hypercharismatic). Our lives were very much controlled; it wasn't unusual to receive a phonecall at midnight which was the pastor trying to track down another member who wasn't at home at such an unearthly hour. We were encouraged to spy on each other and report back to the leadership; I refused to do it.

Jules

[TulseyJoe]

The Greek Biblical word, "Adokimos" translated as "reprobate" means "not acceptable." The prefix "a" means "not" and "dokimos" is from a Greek word relating to "anything which has passed a series of tests," as in proving a metal is pure gold.

"Dokimos" itself is from the Greek verb "dokeo," meaning to "have an opinion about," or to "think."

So "adokimos" could also mean "unthinkable." When people think they are smarter than God is and don't need him anymore, they don't rightly think at all.

God did not give the people up because they were homosexual by orientation. God gave them up because they practiced idolatry just like the Canaanites did as outlined in the three Chapters of Leviticus 18 through 20 which must be read as one unit. The beginning verses of chapter 18 are restated or rephrased in the ending verses of chapter 20.

[TulseyJoe]

While same-gender sexual activity does take place in those 4 chapters, not at bit of it is actually homosexuals committing it.

The Canaanites, called "Phoenicians" in History books and encyclopedias, worshipped the fertility goddess "Astarte [also known as Asherah]

Astarte is another Semitic name for "Easter" (aka Eostre - the goddess of Spring) and "Ishtar."

The sexual activity which took place in Leviticus chapters 18 through 20 did not take place in one's home or in private by consenting adults. It was in an outdoor grove of trees (the meaning of 'Asherah' also means 'grove'), at a shrine, or in a pagan temple of worship.

The Hebrews/Israelites/Jews called any person who was in service to LORD God or a pagan god, a "KDSh" (kadesh, kedesh, Kadosh, kodesh, etc. -same spelling no matter what the pronunciation). The Hebrew consonants, K, D, Sh*, together was the root verb, to "be holy," to "sanctify," to "serve a holy purpose, to "be a saint." Hebrew does not actually have vowels and the vowel points which you see in modern Hebrew Bibles were not in the original text and had not even been invented yet when Jesus was ministering in the Holy Land.

When "KDSh" appears in the Hebrew Text and it refers to a "holy" Canaanite priest, the translators of the King James Version of the Bible mis-translated that as "sodomite." But, in the Hebrew language Bible, there is no word that even means "sodomite." When the "holy" person is female, she is a KDShH (kadeshah); the KJV translators do not call her a "sodomitess" but a "whore."

The King James translators also mistranslated "KDSh" when it meant a pagan place of worship or a pagan idol.

The Bible never says what religion the residents of Sodom practiced. Sodom was not in the country of Canaan (which was West of the Jordan River); it was in the geographical area called "The Plain of Jordan." Remember Lot moved from Canaan to the Jordan Plain, East of the Jordan River; and his uncle, Abraham, stayed in Jordan? All of the little city states in "Jordan" had their own kings.

Now back to the subject of the Canaanite worship of false gods:

The sexual activity which took place in those 3 chapters of Leviticus were for heterosexual reproduction and that was the purpose of the rituals. A man who had to be in a heterosexual relationship went to a holy place of worship to sacrifice to Astarte or her male cohort, "Ba'al" (which means "husband -as in the boss of the family") aka Milcolm, Malcolm, Molech, or Molek.

When a heterosexual man in worship of Astarte performed a sacrifice of his "seed" aka "sperm" in a fertility ritual, he either masturbated over an altar fire or he had sex with the male or female holy person in the place of worship. If he had sex with the male person, the male person representing the goddess dressed up in female drag. When the worshipper had sex with the "holy" man, it was not a man having sexual intercourse with another man, it was a man having sex with a male (holy-person) as though the male was a female, therefore, "spiritually" speaking, it was a man having sexual intercourse as with a woman.

In Romans 1, the sexual activity there was for the same reason, worship of fertility gods and goddesses. The women in that chapter were not women having sexual activity with each other, it was women "priestesses" putting on male phallic devices, pretending to be male and using that device with a male worshipper.

Women did not normally go to fertility temples. Why? Because even the Romans believed just like the Canaanites, the Israelites and all of the rest of the known world (even until a microscope was invented), only a man had "seed" before being a parent while a woman only had "seed," aka offspring, after the birth of a child. A woman was only an incubator and the man's seed had a fully formed miniature baby in the head of his sperm.

But, we who have studied high school biology know that it takes both a male gamete (sperm) and female gamete (ova) to make a "seed" or a "fertilized egg."

[Aineo]

So if you are including chapters 18-20 as a unit then the same could be said for incest, adultery and all the other abominations listed in chapter 18? Does God give up people to a reprobate mind today because of adultery, incest, and homosexuality only because they are idol worshippers like the Cannanites?

[TulseyJoe]

So if you are including chapters 18-20 as a unit then the same could be said for incest, adultery and all the other abominations listed in chapter 18? Does God give up people to a reprobate mind today because of adultery, incest, and homosexuality only because they are idol worshippers like the Cannanites?

The same gender sexual activity in Exodus chapters 18 and 20 is NOT homosexual activity, it is same-gender sexual activity performed by men who are not homosexuals at all!

One does not have to experience a physiological sexual attraction toward another person to perform a sex act with said person.

I have never been to a swingers orgy. But, I know people who have. They told me that because some of the men got turned on seeing a man having sex with a woman, and there were not enough women to go around, they just had sex with the available guys instead.

In the situation in Romans 1, a heterosexual man who went to a pagan fertility temple where lots of other men were around got sexually aroused when they saw a heterosexual man having sex with a priestess and rather than wait their turn with her, they had to have immediate relief so they did exactly what Paul wrote, they "were inflamed with lust for one another."

That quoted phrase meant that the lust occured because of what they saw. In the Bible, Jesus said that lusting after a woman was committing adultery in one's heart. In the case of the Roman pagans, they lusted after the women in the temple but got immediate relief from the men because they just could not wait their turn.

[Aineo]

Can't you do better than that? I have heard that since I was involved with UFMCC. When are you going to bring up the holiness code and all the other propoganda that is used to support gay theology?

Give me a Biblical example of gay love in Scripture.

[TulseyJoe]

Can't you do better than that? I have heard that since I was involved with UFMCC. When are you going to bring up the holiness code and all the other propoganda that is used to support gay theology?

Give me a Biblical example of gay love in Scripture.

The holiness code of the Old Testament was done away with for the followers of Jesus the Christ when he took our place as the sacrificial passover lamb. Jesus did not abolish the Law of the Old Covenant, he fulfilled it so that those who chose to follow him would not be under the curse of the Law. In the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5 through 7, Jesus referred to Moses' commandments as something which was said of olden times and then he added to those he quoted, "But, I say unto you . . ." making the original commandment invalid replacing it with a new one or making the old one stronger.

You need to know that what I know about homosexuality
and the Bible did not come from gay theologians.

How about what is in Ecclesiastes 4:4-12

4 Again, I saw that for all toil and every skillful work a man is envied by his neighbor. This also is vanity and grasping for the wind.


5The fool folds his hands
And consumes his own flesh.
6Better a handful with quietness
Than both hands full, together with toil and grasping for the wind.
7Then I returned, and I saw vanity under the sun:
8There is one alone, without companion:
He has neither son nor brother.
Yet there is no end to all his labors,
Nor is his eye satisfied with riches.
But he never asks,
"For whom do I toil and deprive myself of good?"
This also is vanity and a grave misfortune.


9 Two are better than one,
Because they have a good reward for their labor.
10For if they fall, one will lift up his companion.
But woe to him who is alone when he falls,
For he has no one to help him up.
11Again, if two lie down together, they will keep warm;
But how can one be warm alone?
12Though one may be overpowered by another, two can withstand him.
And a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

The "two" of verse 9 is masculine.

"companion" here is the same word for male partner as in "adult boy friend" in Hebrew.

"lie down together" is the very same verb as in Leviticus 18 and 20. "Keep warm" and "be warm" are also from the Hebrew euphemism (polite way of saying something) for sexual arousal and excitement."

It was my mother who pointed this out to me as far as the text in English is concerned.

Oh, while I am thinking of it, "eunuchs" are those who might not be able to have children but can be married just the same.

If one looks at the Hebrew about the story of Joseph and his working for Potiphar, the literal text states that Potiphar was a eunuch. But, it was Potiphar's wife who tried to seduce Joseph.

[Aineo]

I must admit you just found a Biblical justification for a 3 way. That is really clever and devilish thinking.

Ecclesiastes 4:11

Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone?

"Moreover, if two lie together, then there is heat to them: but how can it be warm with one who is alone?" The marriage relation is not excluded, but it remains in the background; the author has two friends in his eye, who, lying in a cold night under one covering (Ex 22:26; Isa 28:20), cherish one another, and impart mutual warmth. Also in Aboth de-Rabbi Nathan, c. 8, the sleeping of two together is spoken of as an evidence of friendship. The vav in vehham is that of the consequent; it is wanting 10 a, according to rule, in häehhad, because it commonly comes into use with the verb, seldom (e.g., Gen 22:1) with the preceding subj.
(from Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament: New Updated Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)

One thing I have notice about gay men and lesbian women who attempt to find Biblical justification for their perversion is they will violate God's word with abandon totally ignoring the full context of Scripture.

An adult boy friend does not have to be a lover or a sexual partner. But then you are obsessed with men. This is what Psychiatry labels paraphilia.

[Blake.L.]

I agree fully with you. Most churches have this stand of, "We will sit safely between our church walls, and await the end time and all will be allright by then". but they hardly ever tred out into the world to preach the gospel, gods love.
My church does try to step out in the world and preach the gospel, it equips people with ways to preach the gospel to others and that is great!

listen up and listen well, mike because i have to tell you something and you have to be brave about it, okay? its annoying as all heck to have some stranger approach you in the street or wake you up on a saturday morning to ask you if you have accepted jesus as your personal saviour. its rude and intrusive and disrespectful . if people wanted to accept jesus as their personal saviour they would have done so. they don't want or need people like you trying to convert them. its not polite and damn it, its just not civil behaviour, its aggressive and arrogant.

did you ever consider that people have their own beliefs that perhaps they don't want to share with you, or that are very personal and hard won and they are not interested in having jesus christ as their personal saviour? don't mean to shock you but some people even actually manage to save themselves? i know, radical thought isn't it?

a quiet faith, channelled into action along the lines of martin luther king or gandhi, speaks a billion times louder than a stranger (generally a teenager or young adult with bad fashion sense) bouncing up to me in the local mall and asking me if i have accepted jesus as my personal saviour. if you accept him as yours, that is terrific and more power to you but its even better if you do accept him quietly and with humility in the privacy of your own heart.

if you do some research, you will find that evangelical christians actually turn people off christianity quicker than anything. how many people have you seen literally walk faster when you approach, if not run? its definitely not a sexy or righteous thing to be doing. so please, stop it immediately because really by taking part in it, you are displaying your own vast and disrespectful ignorance.

[Origen]

The Greek Biblical word, "Adokimos" translated as "reprobate" means "not acceptable." The prefix "a" means "not" and "dokimos" is from a Greek word relating to "anything which has passed a series of tests," as in proving a metal is pure gold.

"Dokimos" itself is from the Greek verb "dokeo," meaning to "have an opinion about," or to "think."

So "adokimos" could also mean "unthinkable." When people think they are smarter than God is and don't need him anymore, they don't rightly think at all.

God did not give the people up because they were homosexual by orientation. God gave them up because they practiced idolatry just like the Canaanites did as outlined in the three Chapters of Leviticus 18 through 20 which must be read as one unit. The beginning verses of chapter 18 are restated or rephrased in the ending verses of chapter 20.

This is a really interesting insight into that word...

So, Aineo et al, what does reprobate really mean to you? Does it mean people who haven't succumbed to an attempt to impose a particular dogma on them? That would make alot of people pretty reprobate, cause, let me tell something about people: they really dont take well to being conquered and having ideas imposed on them.

What if, in the original context of the word, reprobrate means "to not think?" (a=not; dokimos= the verb 'to think'). Faith, you see, can handle tough questions, and critical thinking. And revelations about truth dont come from you, or any person, but from God through the Holy Spirit, who we, as Christians, each have a relationship with through Christ. When we have faith (as opposed to dogma), we can ask questions, and still be at peace in the knowlege that God has all the answers, and that those answers will be in accordance with God's nature as being infinately good and perfectly just.

So, what if what's really being spoken about here is people who rest on easy, predictable, we-have-all-the-answers dogma being the ones handed over to "reprobate"ness? Faith requires a leap in the dark that doesnt make alot of sense to people without faith - but its a fearless jump for people who have it. Next time you think about going out and "infecting" the world, try finding the peace that faith in God is supposed to impart to you, and spread that - your dogma wont get very far, and as far as it does get, it wont do people any good.

[Aineo]

Origen, a person who has a "reprobate" mind is a person who ignores God's revealed will and truth, which He has given us in His word the Bible. You are correct in stating that people do not like having "dogma" forced on them, but since you directed your comments at me; how am I forcing my "dogma" on you or anyone?

Faith is not the same thing as belief. Those who profess a faith in God yet practice a sin that God labels displeasing to Him demonstrate a lack of faith in the very God they claim to believe in.

When asked by the Pharisees what is the great commandment Jesus replied:

Matthew 22:36-38
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. NAS

Those who place homosexual love above love of God have made a choice that disappoints and offends God who is not only loving but righteous in His judgment.

[Origen]

Aineo, wouldnt anyone who placed any love, hetero or homo, (or for money, or any physical thing) above love for God, be missing the point of that command? Of course they would.

People are capable of developing romantic feelings for/with someone who doesnt edify their relationship with God - its being hetero or homo isnt the point, the fact that its empty because it doesnt edify one's relationship with God is.

Your not "forcing" anything dogma-wise in the sense that your holding people by their throats and threatening them with death if they dont convert. But: there's a difference between saying "your homosexual attraction is a sin/wrong/etc, and will condemn you to hell" and "my homosexual experiences were, in the Romans 1:28 sense, not natural for me, therefor it was incorect and not edifying for me and my relationship with God, because God created me straight, and created others gay, so I understand He has something better for me, but I understand there might be something else in His plan for you."

We're not all the same. He created me gay. You seemed to have been out-of-place in pursuing a gay relationship, I take it. Fine. That doesnt mean I am. On the contrary, it, among other things, has been a source of great strength for my relationship with God. So there.

[Aineo]

Your conclusion is typical of all professing gay Christians. You appeal to "God created me as a gay man", which begs the question since God only created Adam and Eve; the balance of humanity was born.

However, pedophiles, murderers, thieves, adulterers, and all others who choose to go with their emotions can make the same claim as you have. "God created me this way".

Tell me Origen, what does it mean to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind"?

Also appealing to what hetero's do is nothing more than avoiding the fact that God labels same gender sexual activity and desires a sin punishable by an eternity in the lake of fire. Straight's will have to answer to God for how they lived their lives and the decisions they make.

[Origen]

No, God does not label gay relationships as such, as is becoming pretty clear one way or the other in the Leviticus thread. Of course heterosexuality is important, but God didnt create all things uniform (a desire to see uniformity is a pretty clear indiciation that you're resting on dogma, rather than leaping in the dark with faith, knowing that a good and just God will be a the other end of that leap - I've always maintained that God is both just and good, see my post in the Islam discussion forum, if you like, on the subject).

Being gay is not a sin, hence, your comparison to other sins is moot. Like heterosexuality, it can be a source of empty pursuits of romance that dont do anything to enhance one's relationship with God - there's the intellectually honest equivilent! (I knew it was around here somehwere!)

What does it mean to love my God with all? It means that in as much as I hope for a relationship here on Earth, my hope is that it would bring me closer to God, and edify my faith - if it doesnt, I dont want it anymore than I'd want a straight person to have a relationship that didnt edify their relationship with God. And it means that my final, great hope is that I will spend eternity in God's perfect, all-encompassing presence, forever. And its all I'll ever need, because through him, I'll be closer to those I love and care about through Him.

[Aineo]

What is becoming clear on all threads you are posting to is your faith is not real and that God's revealed truth has nothing to do with how you live your life. Your personal theology is based on moral relativism not God's absolute sovereignty.

Is being gay a sin? Not any more than being straight is a sin, what is sinful is how one with either orientation lives their lives. God will judge all mankind based on His definition of sin and God has labeled same gender sexual relationships sin and worthy of judgement. Also appealing to what straight's do is nothing more than an attempt to justify your own sin by appealing to how others sin.

What does it mean to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind? We can discern the answer from what Jesus said:

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. NAS

John 15:10
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. NAS

John has something to say about those who practice sin:

1 John 3:4-12
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12 not as Cain, who was of the evil one, and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous. NAS

[Origen]

Double post, again. Trying to keep up with Aineo.

He's like lightning! All over the place, so fast!

[Origen]

My faith "is not real?" Your arrogance is becoming jarring. You are not God. You dont get to make that call. Do you not understand that?

God has not labeled same gender relationships as sinful. That point was made clear over three pages in the Leviticus thread.

Keeping His comandmends is loving Him, and abiding in His love. Indeed. And what's His first and greatest command? To love the Lord your God with all. And the second is to love one another. Do you think includes you condemning me to hell? Probably not, but I think we can agree you werent really saying that... were you?

My point in my response to what the idea of loving God was that, ni teh context of this discussion, I do things with getting closer to God as the aim. Hoping that He has a husband planned for me, that I can grow closer to by us both growing closer to God is in keeping with that.

[Aineo]

Truth hurts doesn't it? You have put your faith in yourself and your own interpretation of God's will. God has plainly stated that sexual relationships are limited to male/female marriages and that all other sexual relationships are an abomination (Leviticus 18:26). Jesus confirms this in Matthew 19 when He said:

Matthew 19:4-6
4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read, that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said,' For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 "Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." NAS

You keep referring to what was posted on the Leviticus thread by a gay man, not by God.

Leviticus 18:22'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. NAS

Leviticus 20:13'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them. NAS

Now show me where these apply to pagan fertility ceremonies or is it your contention that "sexual orientation" is a new concept that God did not know would be used in modern times in an attempt to get around His revealed truth?

[QUIC]

A lot of Christians seem to go out of their way condemn someones orientation.

Stop concentrating on the (apparent) sins, and concentrate on the people! that's what Jesus did.