As usual you are venturing into unknown territory, a logical fallacy of making an argument out of silence. since you say it would have taken months then you know how many of the quraa existed? would you care to tell us how many there were?
No human being knows the exact amount.
Shows how much you know of your koranic history, Ibn Kathir says 450 died and they didn't know the koran from end to end only parts of it and when they died the parts died with them hence the urgent need to collate it before the koran was lost entirely, have you ever wondered why it doesn't say "a large part of the quraa may be lost" why does it say "a large part of the koran may be lost" in reference to the koranic material itself, it would make a lot more sense to suggest the quraa were the ones being lost if the koranic material was not affected, your scholars at understanding-islam even suggests the believers at yamama were recent converts to islam chances of them knowing vasts amounts of the koran were slim to none.
..."Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields...
The number of men is expressed as a great number.
I suggest you read your hadiths further down the post that backs up my "illusionary reading"
In English or in Arabic ? We have the Arabic the original source lets see what you whipped up bellow.
Let us imagine this scenario you receive a lecture in a class, a few days later a few of your colleagues die, the principal calls you and askes you to gather the parts of the lecture together so that the lecture is not entirely lost, to you the lecture was somehow memorised from end to end by the few students? Does it not occur to you that parts of the lecture has already BEEN LOST? and what you are doing is a salvage mission?
Is the lecture recited no less than five times a day to memory ? That is a bad anology t compare with the preservation of the Quran which was, is recited dailey in dawn, noon, evening, sunset, night and more.
Help me solve this conundrum how do you recite a text five times a day when your text has not been compiled yet?
Pls tell us how many of this quraa existed pre and post the battle of yamama.
A great number to fight in wars to triumph over their enemies
Triumph how? didn't they die?
Looks like allah couldn't protect them a pity seeing this were the guardians of the alledge heavenly text.
What do you think, he was looking for koran manuscripts or dictation from hafeez, btw I am sure your audience would like to know just how many of this ahafeez existed pre and post yamama?
Tell me something anybody who comes against any of your interpretations what is the first thing you do?? you patronize them that they don't understand arabic, how do I know you are fit enough to dismiss the scholars that have interpreted the koran...where are your qualifications?
Go find someone who speaks Arabic. ROME says he speaks. Wouldnt he be the perfect canadate to debate in our own language ? SO ask him to confirm what I said.
As usual you are trying to wriggle out of this discussion by patronising statements, you forget I don't need any help understanding arabic.
Your own language? Do you think you are arabic?
I think you should really see a psychiatrist it is a great shame when someone doesn't even know where they come from, were you ostracized from family functions? Is this why you are a muslim to get back at them?
If you want to dismiss a scholar either you are the equal or greater especially in interpretations of a religious nature, you are not equal to any of the arabic scholars that have interpreted the koran, you would be made a laughing stock out of.
Yea, so you wnat me to accept a scholar that say its of for sisters to not wear the Hijab like the Scholar in France did ? Pathetic [what is the meaning and relevance of this???]. This is not Christianity . We are not Christians. I still want to know how those paranthesis got edit from Khan's translation to make it look like it was a translation of the Arabic ?
I suggest you go and read them from the usc website same as me:
Volume 9, Book 89, Number 301:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr sent for me owing to the large number of casualties in the battle of Al-Yamama, while 'Umar was sitting with him. Abu Bakr said (to me), 'Umar has come to my and said, 'A great number of Qaris of the Holy Quran were killed on the day of the battle of Al-Yamama, and I am afraid that the casualties among the Qaris of the Quran may increase on other battle-fields whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost. Therefore I consider it advisable that you (Abu Bakr) should have the Qur'an collected.' I said, 'How dare I do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?' 'Umar said, By Allah, it is something beneficial.' 'Umar kept on pressing me for that till Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chest of 'Umar and I had in that matter, the same opinion as 'Umar had." Abu Bakr then said to me (Zaid), "You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for the fragmentary scripts of the Quran and collect it (in one Book)." Zaid further said: By Allah, if Abu Bakr had ordered me to shift a mountain among the mountains from one place to another it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said (to 'Umar and Abu Bakr), "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is something beneficial." Zaid added: So he (Abu Bakr) kept on pressing me for that until Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar, and I had in that matter, the same opinion as theirs.
So I started compiling the Quran by collecting it from the leafless stalks of the date-palm tree and from the pieces of leather and hides and from the stones, and from the chests of men (who had memorized the Quran). I found the last verses of Sirat-at-Tauba: ("Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves--' (9.128-129) ) from Khuzaima or Abi Khuzaima and I added to it the rest of the Sura. The manuscripts of the Quran remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him. Then it remained with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Hafsa bint 'Umar.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamental ... 09.089.301
Show me where I edited the text?
Not only is your argument completely irrational, why do you think Zaid would be collecting leaves barks and animal skin IF HE WAS NOT COLLECTING FRAGMENTS?
pls read the hadiths I have shown you relative to the "fragments"
I have below
โ โุญุฏุซูุง โ โู
ูุณู ุจู ุฅุณู
ุงุนูู โ โุนู โ โุฅุจุฑุงููู
ุจู ุณุนุฏ โ โุญุฏุซูุง โ โุงุจู ุดูุงุจ โ โุนู โ โุนุจูุฏ ุจู ุงูุณุจุงู โ โุฃู โ โุฒูุฏ ุจู ุซุงุจุช โ โุฑุถู ุงููู ุนูู โ โูุงู โ
โุฃุฑุณู ุฅูู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โู
ูุชู โ โุฃูู โ โุงููู
ุงู
ุฉ โ โูุฅุฐุง โ โุนู
ุฑ ุจู ุงูุฎุทุงุจ โ โุนูุฏู ูุงู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โุฑุถู ุงููู ุนูู โ โุฅู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โุฃุชุงูู ููุงู ุฅู ุงููุชู ูุฏ โ โุงุณุชุญุฑ โ โููู
โ โุงููู
ุงู
ุฉ โ โุจูุฑุงุก ุงููุฑุขู ูุฅูู ุฃุฎุดู ุฃู โ โูุณุชุญุฑ โ โุงููุชู ุจุงููุฑุงุก ุจุงูู
ูุงุทู ููุฐูุจ ูุซูุฑ ู
ู ุงููุฑุขู ูุฅูู ุฃุฑู ุฃู ุชุฃู
ุฑ ุจุฌู
ุน ุงููุฑุขู ููุช โ โูุนู
ุฑ โ โููู ุชูุนู ุดูุฆุง ูู
ููุนูู ุฑุณูู ุงููู โ โุตูู ุงููู ุนููู ูุณูู
โ โูุงู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โูุฐุง ูุงููู ุฎูุฑ ููู
ูุฒู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โูุฑุงุฌุนูู ุญุชู ุดุฑุญ ุงููู ุตุฏุฑู ูุฐูู ูุฑุฃูุช ูู ุฐูู ุงูุฐู ุฑุฃู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โูุงู โ โุฒูุฏ โ โูุงู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โุฅูู ุฑุฌู ุดุงุจ ุนุงูู ูุง ูุชูู
ู ููุฏ ููุช ุชูุชุจ ุงููุญู ูุฑุณูู ุงููู โ โุตูู ุงููู ุนููู ูุณูู
โ โูุชุชุจุน ุงููุฑุขู ูุงุฌู
ุนู ููุงููู ูู ูููููู ููู ุฌุจู ู
ู ุงูุฌุจุงู ู
ุง ูุงู ุฃุซูู ุนูู ู
ู
ุง ุฃู
ุฑูู ุจู ู
ู ุฌู
ุน ุงููุฑุขู ููุช ููู ุชูุนููู ุดูุฆุง ูู
ููุนูู ุฑุณูู ุงููู โ โุตูู ุงููู ุนููู ูุณูู
โ โูุงู ูู ูุงููู ุฎูุฑ ููู
ูุฒู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โูุฑุงุฌุนูู ุญุชู ุดุฑุญ ุงููู ุตุฏุฑู ููุฐู ุดุฑุญ ูู ุตุฏุฑ โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โูุนู
ุฑ โ โุฑุถู ุงููู ุนููู
ุง โ โูุชุชุจุนุช ุงููุฑุขู ุฃุฌู
ุนู ู
ู โ โุงูุนุณุจ โ โูุงููุฎุงู โ โูุตุฏูุฑ ุงูุฑุฌุงู ุญุชู ูุฌุฏุช ุขุฎุฑ ุณูุฑุฉ ุงูุชูุจุฉ ู
ุน โ โุฃุจู ุฎุฒูู
ุฉ ุงูุฃูุตุงุฑู โ โูู
ุฃุฌุฏูุง ู
ุน ุฃุญุฏ ุบูุฑู โ
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Disp ... 0&Rec=7435
Doesnt say anthing about fragments.
Do you think I don't know you are quoting from a shia website?
Why don't you quote the same hadith from a sunni website, seeing the shias do not have the same respect for Bukhari ahadith as the sunnis do, either way you are in effect telling me Mushin Khan is in error yes?
That brings us back to our dilemma where are your qualifications to dismiss what he has to say?
What are you saying now?
This is what you said earlier in this thread:
Quote:
Zaid said he successfully collected the entire Quran. How did he know he collected the entire Quran if he was not Hafeez or not of the Qurraa'a ? [Tell us H2O what does Hafeez mean?] He obviously new cause what he transcribed into a complete book had to have been comfirmed by the Qurraa'a ie ahafeez who knew the entire Quran.
You are now contradicting yourself over what you said about zaid being a hafeez I have to wonder if you have a short attention span or you and your wife are taking turns masquerading as your nick.
You must be got bogged reading comprehension , yes read it all again.
Would you care to tell us what hafiz/hafeez means in english?
Zaid said he successfully collected the entire Quran. How did he know he collected the entire Quran if he was not Hafeez or not of the Qurraa'a ? He obviously new cause what he transcribed into a complete book had to have been comfirmed by the Qurraa'a ie ahafeez who knew the entire Quran.
You understand yet ?
would you care to tell us why Ibn Kathir is in error (and everybody else who disagrees with you) and you are incapable of error?
Already did, go back and read.
Why don't you answer the simple question?, Ibn Kathir is in error so is Yusuf Ali and Sher Ali, and Marmaduke Pickthall, and Hilali and Khan, and everybody else because I have not found any islamic sect that considers sura 9:28 to be a prophecy of saudi oil, except for you (it is to be expected since you are the imam of your own sect). H2O ARE YOU CAPABLE OF MAKING ERRORS, ARE YOUR TRANSLATIONS SUPERIOR TO ALL OF THE ABOVE?
Did you understand that blue. I dont think your included
The koran used in that website is from Pickthall an english fellow using biblical language, you have told us several times that this is a terrible translation yet you reference it in your signature, are you this dishonest in wanting people to read something you regard as full of mistakes?
If it is for your purpose of using them then of course not. Translations are not meant for criticism. They were meant to convey a basic message to peopel who wre sincerely seeking to learn and understand which is not your position.
Wait a minute you have no conscience telling people to read something you regard as a terrible translation just read it alhamduillah, it doesn't occur to you that the 80%+ of muslims that don't understand the arabic are using these 'terrible' translations, or maybe it is really ok to lie for allah, no matter what the lie is as long as you are lying for allah you might get a few more houris?
You told us you were translating the koran into english, did you forget or was that one of your abandoned projects while you decide which pizza slice of islam to adopt?
As I said before. "Coming to a book store near you" that is backed by the University of of Azhar and the University of Medina. Just wait, you will see. then you will find out my Arabic qualification then.
I seriously doubt you are involved at all in any of the stages, if it's going to be anything like what you have been spouting in this forum the fatwa will be arriving in florida faster than you know.