Do you realise your hadith throws your whole argument that the ahafeez had the entire koran memorised from end to end in tatters?
That doesnt mean
Abi Khuzaima wasnt Hafeez whom Zaid could have also collected it from his memory rather than text. Its an up in the Air issue. He could of well been one of those Ahafeez who knew the entire Quran whom Zaid got the last verse of Taubah from. Also, this is what Zaid went out and collect. This doesnt mean he went to every single person through out Arabia whihc would have taken months to do but he went to those who were local and available.
The hadith indicates they only had it in bits
Read the hadith in it's proper context
Yup you and your illusionary reading.
whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost.
This indicates a larg portion of the Quran was memorized.
..So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones...
How did you determine how much of the Quran was written on those materials ? The Quran in Arabic in book size is less than a half inch in 8.5" X 11". The number of written materials is not mentioned.
and also from the men who knew it by heart,
How can you determine how many Qurraa'a men he went to and how much Quran they knew by heart ?
Hadeeth in context does not make mention that Zaid had it bits. there is no volume indication just you speculating conjecture of whishful thinking.
it says we have lost those who memorised the koran (never does it state they had the entire koran from end to end memorised),
Nope it doesnt say that. This is what it says.
Narated By Zaid bin Thabit : Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost.
The hadith indicates only some of the Qurraaa'a had died not all.
Zaid is told to collect the koran so that a bigger part will not be lost, notice it says "whereby a large part of the koran will be lost" the statement makes no logical sense unless it pertains to the koranic material that is being lost:
In which as I said before the majority of the Quran was memories by the Qurraa'a, and all of them did not die so to loose the majority of the Quran in which they feared that the next war would result in more casualties of the Qurraaa'a, so they had the Quran compiled just in case.
How does this help you?
you mean orally he couldn't find anybody else with said verse?
He collected it some how some way that is unidentified.
or he couldn't find anybody's animal skin, bark, leaves with said verse?
Does it say he collected it from him from written materials ?
This leaves a much bigger question what else could he have left out, your hadiths state several verses are missing.
Goes back to what I said. Someone must have confirmed he had the entire Quran for him to know he had collected all of it.
I am not the one dismissing venerated islamic scholars and historians as idiots who didn't know what they were talking about.
Show me where it says I have to be a graduate of an Islamic school to dismiss a scholars statements.
I am not the one retranslating the koran and claiming Yusuif Ali, Hilali and Khan, Pickthall, Sher Ali, Ibn Kathir were all in error and made terrible translations and only me with no arabic scholar qualification to my name is so arrogant to proclaim I have the monopoly on the truth and interpretation of islam your fellow muslims have confronted you over this ego you chose not to respond to them, you are what is referred to as driftwood all alone at sea the translator interpretator and
imam of your own doctrine, the beginning of a sect.
Read the begining of the Introduction to the translations. They said it over and over their translation is not the Quran and is subject to error. Non of them said their translation was the Authorized Version. I am not alone in this about rejecting translations of the Quran. We have no need of them. There are thousands of Arabic Speaking muslims hold the same view .
[Why would he be told to look for the koran if he already had it memorised??]
What, are you another comatos one ?
H2O wrote:Zaid said he successfully collected the entire Quran. How did he know he collected the entire Quran if he was not Hafeez or not of the Qurraa'a ? He obviously new cause what he transcribed into a complete book had to have been comfirmed by the Qurraa'a ie ahafeez who knew the entire Quran
Does it look like I supported that Zaid knew the entire Quran ?
H2O I lost interest in taking you seriously long ago, compare what you said above with what you said earlier:
Then Hush and get loss, and let me and the Lebaneese continue. You want to turn this thread into a 12 page thread like we did the other one. I am up for it again if you like.
Rome, please excuse. It looks like Liberate and My self are going be at it for the next month on this thread. So as soon as he is finished then we can continue.
As of july according to your post you weren't associated with the shia but now (November) you are best buddies, I have to wonder how you look yourself in the mirror and pretend to us you really are sure of what you believe in when it is obvious you are making it up as you go along.
I am not
associated. Correct. That doesnt mean we cant help each other. Just like the Sunnies and the Shia teamed up in Iraq. He has his madzhab and we have ours, but are to still repect each other.
Pls make up your mind just a few sentences above you said no now you say yes are you reading what you are typing? You are either desperate for a prophecy or seriously confused.
Read it again. Maybe you not seeing correctly.
I am not the one contradicting the english language, by all means show us this rule let us see where you are basing your free lance take on islam from do you know what is stopping any arabic speaker from coming over to you and saying this is what the koran really says?
Where is this Arabic speaker ? Rome you want to help your companion with some arabic lessons ? He needs some help.
If ROME and I were to debate like you were with me we wouldnt debate from a translation we would debate from the Quran or Hadeeth in Arabic were it is clear and understood. Not my fault you dont speak Arabic. Go take some lessons. I dont follow translations, so how can you argue with us in something we dont support ?
Which is in effect what you have been saying all along Ibn Kathir is in error and everybody else
You should read more of their work to see what they say on what they call their opinions that are subject to error.
basically everybody and every mainstream doctrine in islam?
:roll:
BTW H2O you never answered when I asked why do you have a koran link in your signature when you have told us several times it is a terrible translation???
This is my Quran link, the Quran in Arabic.
http://quran.muslim-web.com/
Thats my prime source.
Rome, we will get back to you in a few maybe days, maybe months as soon as Liberate is finishes.