Unite wrote:Hi Liberate, thank you for your comments.
Liberate wrote:
I would relate to your comment if we were but we are not deists, pantheists, or agnostics we can agree that there is a God, the question is which one? islam or christianity?
There's one God. Islam accepts Him as He is, because Islam is His religion. Christianity defines a new God, which makes it corrupt.
You speak like someone who is unaware of which came first. The christian concept of the trinity has been as long as the early church fathers.
We christians believe in one God. My analogy with God being in multiple places at once and therefore counting as many Gods with the muslim concept of singularity doesn't seem to have had the desired effect.
Let us imagine for a second I send my voice as a tape recording to a court. Will that court accept that tape recording as my voice, and emanating from me and as though I had been there myself?
This is how christians view Jesus, as the Word of God. The Word of God that speaks and says exactly what God would say if He was physically on earth as a man. Just as the tape recording of my voice does not make me two different persons the same with Jesus as the Word of God. He is as though God Himself had sent a tape recording of Himself in a human body, that is why He is called the Word of God, even islam admits Jesus is the Word of God, but it never acknowledges the significance of this.
Looking at it in the muslim sense. Your koran says Jesus was born of a virgin. Then who is His Father? We can agree on who His mother is but who is His Father? Who can we assume to be the Father of Jesus?
For ex. for an atheist, he has to decide if there's a Creator first. When he decides there's a Creator he has to make it three if he will be a Christian.
Even if you were to dismiss the concept of the trinity, you still have to deal with Jesus and what He said, even your koran forces you to at least examine the evidence if you are truly being objective.
You are not being objective here, I believe in true objectivity, can't point out the mote in one's eye when there is a 2 by 4 in yours. If I was to tell you that I had a message from God that you should give me your daughter to marriage to me as it is ordained by God, you should raid caravans and give me 5% of the booty, that the world has been created for me and I and I alone hear the voice of God and whoever denies that I am the messenger of God has created great shirk and should be killed, what would you think of me?
God does not choose His prophets arbitrarily. Muhammad pbuh had his own merits as a blessing from God, so that people would accept him wholeheartedly as a Messenger of God. He was known as Muhammad al ameen (reliable Muhammad) even among unbelievers. But the real point is that He called people to obey One God, he did not define a new God beyond people's comprehension.
Something I said earlier:
Let me give you something you can relate to:
Let us imagine for a second you are a sikh, you wear a turban you believe in the unity of god, you abhor pagan practices, and you believe in doing good works and giving to charity, you treat your holy book like it is literally holy with kisses and a sacred spot in your home sometimes a whole room just for it.
Your religion is dated over 1000 yrs after islam, but yet you claim this is the one true religon and the gurus came to resurrect the true religion.
You then claim that islam has corrupted it's holy book and the true religion lies in the works of Guru nanak and Guru Gobin Singh, and this was the one true religion laid down by God any other variant of this religion is because the variants have some aspects of the true religion which they bastardised, muslims are not supposed to cut their hair to a certain length but to let it grow, not letting it grow is haram and will mean eternal hell.
Or maybe you are a Bahai, you abhor pagan practices, and believe in the unity of God, and believe in private prayer.
Your religion is founded over 1200 yrs after islam, yet you claim this is the one true religion and your founder came to resurrect the one true religion.
All the other religions have corrupted the message of the one true religion ressurected by Mirza Ali Mohammed, Mirza Husayn Ali, and Abdul Baha, all persecuted and killed therefore proof of their prophethood!!!
What is islam supposed to make of such a claim?
Do you see then what christianity makes of Islam? especially when it makes claims that allah is the original name of God, arabic is the language of heaven, and the four sacred months not to fight in is the perfect religion from the beginning of mankind.
Before you make the same accusation with judaism over christianity bear in mind the jewish problem with christianity is one of interpretation, never corruption.
Where is the proof that God (that does not change) sent revelations as poetry for the prophets as 'inspiration' in judaism or christianity, which prophet in the whole of christianity or judaism contemplated suicide after having an encounter with God or an angel of God?. What makes you think this is not the work of satan.?
What you mentioned about Mohammed defining God in a way that is not beyond people's perception of God is really a non issue, if God is beyond logic, what makes you think the creator of logic can be wholly defined by logic? . We can discuss if that concept of God did not stem from the already pagan influence in the arabian peninsula at the time of Mohammed. There are clear hadiths that Mohammed and his wife Khadija were practicing pagans.
On the other hand what would you think about Solomon. He was a ruler/prophet with wealth and power. Would you make the same claims about him too?
Living in poverty and doing good works is no sign that you are from God, Bahai'lulla, and many early sikhs lived in poverty and constant persecution is this proof that they were from God. What you are failing to address which I am trying to show you is continuity from Adam to Abraham to Jesus to the disciples and the early church, we have the religious material that we can trace that these prophecies these comments therse moral values are synonymous with what we know of God. On the other hand Mohammed and islam are an abberation from what we know, and very alarming to claim that this is the same God.
Why would a God that resounds immovability in judaism and christianity suddenly change the rules so drastically to speak via one man in epileptic seizures? Justifiying what before He regarded as sin? To a christian this is not God but something imitating to be God.
A bit perplexed here. You accept a man who claims He is God, but also accuse Muhammad for imitating God, which of course is not true.
We christians believe that Mohammed was being deceived. Even if Mohammed heard a spirit, was receiving revelations that caused him to roll on the floor, and convey epileptic symptoms. This is not from God, the whole scenario of how he obtained his first revelation and his subsequent moral choices are resonant that whatever he heard or saw and was talking to him was not from God.
On the contrary the disciples were matryed many of them told they would be given amnesty if they renounced their faith. A faith that hinged on the death and resurrection of Jesus. These disciples were eye witnesses to the events. How many people do you know that are willing to die for something they are fully aware to be a lie? Sure people die for lies but always lies they believe to be true, surely one of those disciples would have cracked under duress and confessed it was all a lie, not one renounced a thing.
Concerning your comments about the trinity that no one can imagine such a thing.
Let me try and explain it with a muslim alternative:
You believe God can see everything?
You believe God can be everywhere?
If God can do this. Does that make Him more than one?
Surely it defies logic for one to be everywhere at once?
If God can do this and still be singular. Then we are dealing with a God that cannot be understood wholly, that alleviates above and beyond our human comprehensive abilities of logic.
Trinity strongly resembles Roman polytheism, with notion of gods with partial authority.
You will have to show us these roman polytheism and the similarity with christianity. If you are talking about the cult of Mithra, I would advise you that no scholar of any repute believes christianity resembles it.
Let us look at it in another way. We as logical human beings see things in finite time. Once upon a time everything had to have a beginning, that is how we perceive life. Can we apply the same to God? can we imagine a God that has always existed? that is responsible for the creation of time and uninfluenced by time itself?
If you are an atheist you might well think matter is eternal, because something has to be. If you believe in a Creator God you cannot ask who created Him, because nothing and noone created later can be God.
Yet you say that same God has failed in sending any of His messages?? are you not questioning God?
Jesus did not come later from God. If you would read the bible you would see that the Word had always exsted with God. Similar to how you cry when you are born your 'word' has always existed with you.
Now if God is not influenced by time and is responsible for the creation of time then He knows exactly the beginning of time to the end of time. He knows what will happen in between before they happen...prophecy. This is one of the signatures that God uses to let people know that the message is coming from Him, He will actually tell the message before it occurs.
Oh yes. Muhammad pbuh is fullfillment of His prophecy.
Would you care to show us where? This is prophecy you are talking about to validate a prophecy a previous source with the prophecy at least has to be shown.
The muslim tactic regarding this has been to claim that the original prophecies/books have been corrupted and lost, but do they really realise the significance of what they alledge? That God who knows the beginning from the end would allow the testament of Abraham to be lost and/or corrupted. Would allow the torah to be lost and/or corrupted. Would allow the zabor of David to be lost/or corrupted. Would allow the injil of Jesus to be lost and/or corrupted. Apart from insulting the morality of jewish and christian followers to allow this corruption, it makes God out as not being able to protect any of His messages on a serial basis.
These "why would allow" questions can go to infinity. If God is merciful, why would He allow wars, why would He allow children starve to death. Why would He allow torture......There are many who ask these questions and then they would disobey God or conclude there's no God.
Those 'questions' have nothing to do with a conclusion that there is no God but rather the level of human debauchery the human race can succomb to.
In other to prove that corruption has occured you need evidential manuscripts that back up your stance of what was corrupted. Several archaelogical finds, the dead sea scrolls to name but one has emphasized that the old testament has not been corrupted. It is precisely as it was at the time of Jesus give or take a negligible percentage relating to grammar. In it it states that the Messiah would be born of the seed of a woman (a virgin birth something even the koran alludes to). Of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Judah, of the lineage of David, called "the Mighty God", would be given for a convenant, would be the stone that would be rejected but would be the headstone, would be crucified, would rise from the dead, to name a few. All fulfilled and documented in the new testament.
Can the same be said of allah's book? What significant prophecies do you honestly know are contained in the koran? If you know of one please let us in.
Muhammad himself is the fullfillment of God's prophecy. What other prophecy do you want me to cite?
I would really like to see where this prophecy was prophecied.
Well, did you read scientific stuff about Qur'an? Maybe that will of some help. Nothing in Quran is disproved scientifically, even this " between backbone and ribs" stuff.
You believe sperm comes from the backbone and the ribs? and the reason why males are born or females is dependent on which sexual fluid is emitted from the man or woman first, produced in the thorax between the backbone and the ribs?
Your koran says that the jews planned to kill Jesus. Why don't you ask yourself a simple question, WHAT DID JESUS DO THAT THE JEWS WANTED TO KILL HIM?
Do you really think He said worship one God and do good works like all the other prophets? was the reason why they would want to kill Him? He must have done or said something, people don't want to kill for no reason.
Why did they kill Zachariah? Did he say God will visit you Himself?
Jews killed many of their prophets, because they addressed Jews' arrogance such that they believe they are chosen people and religion and truth of God is reserved for themselves.
Are you aware of the apocryphal book Mohammed obtained that story from? If you were to read the apocryphal book you would be very embarassed. Rather than demonising the jews as a wanton group of prophet killers, if you were to read the old testament you would realise prophets were killed only when Israel worshipped false gods and they attempted to bring them back to the worship of the one true God. Would you like to tell us which prophet they killed and gave the reason that "He claimed to be the Son of God?"
You believe that jews killed their prophets because they were arrogant and believed religion and truth is reserved for themselves, this shows how much you know of judaism, jews do not proselytize. I am guessing you are obtaining this material about the jews from your koran and hadith, apply some logic on it it does not really make much sense. Tell me something does it make any sense for God to claim the jews His chosen people and that He would never forsake them and the next minute would be cursing them and having trees say
"there is a jew behind me oh servant of allah come and kill him"
You say mankind is innocent, hence no sin nature no original sin no need for Jesus to die on the cross. Islam says that Adam and Eve were in the garden in paradise, do you know what reason islam gives for Adam and Eve being on earth and no longer in paradise?
Yes, satan deceived them. And they regretted and Allah accepted their repentance
So they did what?
Why didn't they stay in paradise? What were they doing on earth?