Re: first part of reply to Omega
Mudturkle wrote:Dear Omega,
Yes, "the *people* of the prince that shall come" in Dan 9:26 is the Romans.
But the key question is this:
Who is "he" of Dan 9:27?
Dan 9:24 speaks of anointing the most Holy (Jesus!)
Dan 9:25 speaks of the Messiah the Prince (Jesus!)
Dan 9:26 speaks of the Messiah the Prince (Jesus!) *and* "the people of the prince that shall come".
So who does the word "he" in Dan 9:27 refer to?
Messiah the Prince (Jesus!) like the previous 2 verses?
Or "the people of the prince that shall come"?
One could "guess" and say that "he" refers to "the people of the prince that shall come". But what reason would we have to think that the focus shifted from Jesus to this other prince?
There is no mention of this other prince before Dan 9:26 and no mention of him afterward either.
The best indication we have of who "he" in Dan 9:27 is, is by what "he" does.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 9:27 (KJV)
"He" shall confirm "the covenant". OK. What covenant? If we read Dan 9 from the beginning to find out what covenant Dan 9:27 is talking about, we find this in Dan 9:4:
4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping *the covenant* and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
Dan 9:4 (KJV)
If "the covenant" in Dan 9:27 is the same "the covenant" mentioned in Dan 9:4 (and we have no reason to think otherwise), then God made "the covenant"! Now who would confirm the covenant that God made, Jesus or "the prince that shall come"? Obviously, Jesus.
And "he" in Dan 9:27 also caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. One could say that the Romans caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. Or one could say that Jesus caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease by His perfect sacrifice. The question is did the Romans thwart God's plans? Did God really want to continue the sacrifice and the oblation after Jesus made His sacrifice but the Romans caused it to cease? (I doubt that.) Or did God use the Romans to destroy the temple because He wanted the sacrifice and the oblation to cease? In that case, who really caused it? The Romans who were an instrument of God's will? Or was it God's will that caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease?
And we have "and *for the overspreading of abominations* he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation".
"for the overspreading of abominations" means "because of the overspreading of abominations".
Did the Roman general make it desolate *because of* the overspreading of abominations? Or did God (Jesus) make it desolate *because of* the overspreading of abominations?
Could the Roman general make it desolate "even until the consummation"? Or would it have to be Jesus who would make it desolate "even until the consummation"?
When was it made desolate? And by whom?
38 Behold, *your house is left unto you desolate*.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Matt 23:38-39 (KJV)
1 *And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple*: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matt 24:1 (KJV)
So, let's put all this together and see who "he" in Dan 9:27 is.
1. Jesus is definitely the One who will confirm the covenant of Dan 9:4 with many for one week.
2. In the midst of the week Jesus caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease by His perfect sacrifice. (I understand that His ministry lasted 3 1/2 years. There remains 3 1/2 years which will be the great tribulation during which He will confirm the covenant for 3 1/2 years more.)
3. Based on Matt 23:38-39 and Matt 24:1 we *know* that Jesus made it desolate. And He did it *because of* the overspreading of abominations. And He will see to it that it remains desolate until the consummation. This is something that no Roman general could do.
You could insist that the Romans caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. But remember, whoever "he" in Dan 9:27 is, has to do all of those things. From Matt 23:38-39 and Matt 24:1 we know that it (their house) became "desolate" when Jesus left it. It was *already desolate* before the Romans destroyed it. Therefore the Romans did not make it desolate. Jesus did. And Jesus will see to it that it stays desolate until the consummation. And that is something that the Romans could not do.
Yours in Christ,
John Reno
Hello Mudturkle!
Who is he spoken of in Daniel 9:27?
It is written:First take a look Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. at the previous verses that you mentioned preceding Daniel 9:27
It is written:And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Let me clear this up a little,
The prince who is to come does not refer to the "Messiah". But it refers to a very clear reference to a future
prince or a
prince who is to come or someone who wil reign during Daniels "seventieth week"
Read Daniel 8:23, it refers to the "King of fierce countenance" or as the New Testament refers to as "the man of sin or the son of perdition" Or Antichrist as John identifies him with.
Take a look at this very carefully:Verse 26 reads: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
It provides the indentity and nationality of the Antichrist{He will be of the people"} that shall destroy the city and it's sanctuary. I know that there are many who believe that "the people" refers to the Romans, who had decimated the city of Jerusalem in A.D 70. With this information and with the information given that the Antichrist will rule and reign over the gentile nations of the western part of the World. It also seem to hinting that he{The Antichrist} is of european descent.
He shall confirm the covenant with many for one:
or Seven Years.
This is indicating that this occurence will happen which will start the seventieth week or the 6 years of Daniel.it is commenced by the signing of a seven year covenant between the prince{Antichrist} of the people who had destroyed the city of Jerusalem along with the Jews.
With close study of scripture you can see that this has yet to occur!
Furthermore the Antichrist will then break his covenant with the Nation of Israel and then will proceed to desecrate the Temple. And }in the middle of the week} is indicating that this event will occur at the midpoint of the Tribulation period{After the 3 1/2 years.
Furthermore Jesus Himself stated that this event of the desecration of the temple will be called the{abomination of desolation} which is spoken by Daniel the Prophet.
It is written:Matthew 24:15 - When ye therefore shall see the "abomination of desolation", spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (
whoso readeth, let him understand
And at the ending of the {seventieth week} "the consumation" will then happen. And that is when the LORD will return from the Clouds of Heaven with Power and Great Glory!!! to Rule the Entire World.
Mudturkle wrote:Mudturkle wrote:And you can not show me where two or more of the OT prophets said that Rome would come against Israel. Therefore according to Ezek 38:17, Rome is not Gog. (If you don't want to believe that Gog is another name for the antichrist, fine, disregard Ezek 38.)
So, Dan 9:27 is not about Rome. Ezek 38 is not about Rome. And Rev 17 is not about Rome.
Where is there any Scripture which points to Rome in connection with the beast then?
And no, I didn't say that you believe that Rome is that great city which sits on seven mountains aka Mystery, Babylon the Great. (But you do believe that, don't you?)
If you don't believe that it is Rome (which sits on 7 hills) then surely you must agree with me that it is Jerusalem (which sits on 7 mountains). Otherwise, which great city that sits on 7 mountains do you think it is?
And if you do believe that that great city is Rome, then how would you explain that a "revised Roman empire" would hate Rome and attack her? Or what connection that would have with Israel and Armageddon?
You asked: "So what your trying to say to me is that Judaism will reign over the earth correct?"
If you are asking if I mean that Judaism will be the only religion in the world, then the answer is "No." What I am saying is that Judaism is one of the religions which is worldwide and as such Jerusalem reigns over the kings of the earth. I do not say that Judaism will be the only religion in the world. Nor do the Scriptures say that there will be only one religion in the world. The Christian religion will exist on the earth until the resurrection of the dead in Christ at His return and we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them in the air. The Jewish religion will also exist until the return of the Lord because He said that He would not return until they say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord". (So Judaism will exist at least until that time.) And there will also be at least one other religion, the Muslim religion which will make war against Christians and Jews (and is doing so already).
The idea of there being only one religion in the world in the end-times is something which was made up by man. There *will* be one flock and one Shepherd. But that will be after the return of the Lord and not before.
I do agree with you that we are living in the end days. As such we need to reexamine those things which we have been taught which we see no evidence of and begin to consider those possibilities which we do see evidence of.
Jerusalem sits on 7 mountains and is a harlot. There are OT Scriptures which say so. Since Israel was the first harlot, she is the mother of harlots. All other harlots (such as the RCC) are daughters of the mother of harlots.
The beast is comprised of nations which are antichrists, which according to 1John and 2John means that they deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Muslims deny that Jesus is the Son of God because they believe that God has no Son.
Those Muslim nations hate the harlot (Israel) and will attack her. The war will result in the battle of Armegeddon (which is located in Israel).
They will also make war against the saints. Some will be beheaded. (Rev 20:4)
We are seeing those things already.
The Beast rises out of the sea, the sea is representing the Gentile Nations, and compare this with Daniel 9:26 indicating the man of sin.
Read this my friend!:After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. Daniel 7:7
The fourth beast does not have a name which is indicating that his personality is that of an Ugly Beast, there is a reason as to why the identity of the beast is unknown.
Revelation 17:9 - And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
You are implying that Jerusalem sits on the seven mountains and disregard that Rome also sits on Seven Hills or is also referred to as Seven Mountains, research this and you will see my friend!
Even in ancient times, Rome was referred to a city which is built upon Seven Mountains.
This takes Wisdom:
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Comments?
God Bless!